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Nostalgia: How to Protest Safely · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we do what we do. Welcome
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: to Why we do what we do. I am your
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: sign holding host, Abraham.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: And I'm your speaking out loud hosts quite a bit, Shaine.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: We are a psychology podcast. We talk about the things
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: that humans and non human animals do, and sometimes we
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: re release a past episode and then we have some
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: things to say about that topic. And we like to
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: pick episodes that are at least five years old because
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: we've been doing this for a while now. Man. That
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: gives a little bit of time for signs and history
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: to play out and we can add some more additional
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: context to that discussion. And so five years ago we
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: released this episode on how to Protest Safely.
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it felt like, given the current state of the
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: world at the time of this recording, this was pretty relevant.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: So hopefully, you know, you get some new information. Maybe
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: it's the first time you've heard the Protest Safely episode,
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: or maybe you've heard it before, and it's a good
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: reminder and we've got some updates to go along with it.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: So I think that that's I think that'll be helpful here.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Now, our original episode did not publish on February fourth,
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: but this one does, and therefore it is worth for
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: those of you hearing this on February fourth, wishing you
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: a happy Global School Play Day.
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: Yes, it's also Homemade Soup Day.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: Yum. It is iHeart Horror Day. Horror horror.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: It is International Day of Human Fraternity.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: That is Liberachi Day.
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: It certainly is. It is National Create a Vacuum Day.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: It is National Girls and Women in Sports Day. Oh
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: that's kind of a hot topic right now.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yes, yes it is. It is National Hemp Day.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: It is National Signing Day or if you switch the
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: G in the N around and Singing Day, So whichever
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: one floats your fancy, whichever one works.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: It is I think a day that Abraham will really
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: enjoy it. National Stuffed mushroom Day.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: Oh yes, please, I do. I do celebrate a day
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: of observance for me. Yes, yes, National Thank a Male
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Person Day. It says a male man, but let's be real,
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: let's think a male person.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yep. It is National wicker Day, one of the
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: worst days of the year.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: I hate wicker h Yeah, and don't want to be
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: a wicker man either. I don't want to sit on splinters.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: Come on, it is quacker Day. Which apparently has to
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: do with the clothing line Quacker Factory. Sure, why not,
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: Holly want a Quacker? It is sweater Day okay. It
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: is Torture Abolition Day. Oh fully full of full in
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: support of that. Yes, great, yeah, no more torture. That
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: sounds perfect, love it.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: That sounds great. Yeah. It is African Heritage and Health Week.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: And it is Burn Awareness Week. Burn is bad.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, yeah, we want to be aware of that
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: because treating burns is not fun.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: Yes, and receiving them arguably worse.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: Yes, agreed.
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  Speaker 1: Anyway, those are just holidays, and it's fun to acknowledge
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: that those are holidays because we can. But that's not
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: why you were here. I don't think Maybe it is.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: If so, then I guess bye. I hope you enjoyed that. Sure,
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: But if you're joining us for the first time, welcome.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: We hope that you enjoy what you hear in this
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: discussion today. If you're a returning person, then welcome back.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: Maybe you'll remember this one. Maybe this one is new
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: to you if you are been listening to us for
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: a while but not since this one came out. Either way,
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: if you would like to support us, you can join
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: us on Patreon. You can non financially support us, but
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: in a way that does indirectly financially support us, which
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: is leave us a rating and a review, like subscribe
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: tell a friend. I'll talk a little bit more about
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: that at the end of our discussion, but we are
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: going to, as I said, play this hire original episode
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: that we released in twenty twenty. Do you have the
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: original release date?
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: It is November fourth, twenty twenty.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: November fourth, twenty twenty, okay, so five years and two
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: months woish months and a half. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Oh,
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: I guess it'd be November December, January to February, so
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: like three months. Yeah, yeah, around three months, five years
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: three months that that was released. So yeah, that's cool.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: It's a good amount of time. But I think that
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: is about what we have to say before we dive
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: into this. There's anything you would like to add before
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: we launch our we replay this episode.
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So at the time of this this episode's release,
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: it is the beginning of Black History Month, and we
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: wanted to share a quick little history of just some
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: folks that were instrumental in black history in the United States.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: Oh great, We thought that would be important and So
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: before we get into like the episode proper, given that
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: it's Black History Month, we're gonna share it a little
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: bit of history and highlight some of these folks. For
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: this episode today, we are going to highlight somebody named
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: Claude Debt Colvin that was the first person that was
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: documented to refuse to give up her seat on the bus,
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  Speaker 2: preceding Rosa Parks by nine months, and so many people
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: know about Rosa Parks and Rosa Parks was kind of
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: like in a situation where that was the straw that
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: broke the camel's back of sorts. Yeah, but Claudette was
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  Speaker 2: actually the first one to do this. She was removed
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  Speaker 2: from the bus forcibly and arrested as a result of
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: the act. And she specifically said, I refused and they
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: really had to unglue me from the seat, is what
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: she said in an interview that I watched with her.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: That's amazing.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, she was great. She ended up going and working
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: in healthcare nursing for thirty five years. She's just like,
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: as you watch interviews with her, she's like just really
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: kind of wonderful. She would later go on to testify
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: and serve as one of the principal plaintiffs in the
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: Browder versus Gail case, which ultimately declared the bus segregation
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: was unconstitutional. So she was like one of the first
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: people to really bring this to Alabama court and then
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: all the way to the Supreme Court where it was
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: deemed the bus segregation was unconstitutional. So she was heavily
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: involved in this process.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: Interesting. Yeah, it's also interesting that she was not I
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: accepted as a civil rights pioneer early in the civil
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: rights movement due to her status. She was unmarried pregnant
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: during many of the hearings and proceedings, and that did
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: cause some of the civil rights campaigners to avoid sort
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: of giving her the same platform. But definitely worth I
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: think at this point giving her the space. I mean,
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: she really was, even if they didn't want to recognize
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: it at the time, she was a pioneer, Like she
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: was part of this movement in a really important way.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: So definitely worth celebrating.
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of the campaigners didn't want to highlight
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: her because they felt that she would have been bad
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: for pr sure in terms of the movement. She would
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: have been like they basically just said, like, oh, because
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: she's pregnant and unmarried white folks that are anti civil
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: rights will go on and say, oh, she's a bad girl.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: She's da da da da da, And they just felt
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: like they would have been bad pr which is unfortunate
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: because she raised her kids and her kids were taken
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: care of, and she did a lot of really great work.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: She only recently passed away. And I just learned this
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: on January thirteenth of twenty twenty six. Wow, So at
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: the time of this recording, she only passed away like
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: a little over a week ago. Yeah, and she passed
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: away age eighty six, where she you know, she had
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: she had passed away in hospice. But important person in
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: black history, especially in the United States, and I think
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: it's it's worth just making sure that she gets that platform.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: So part of the inspiration for launching into this discussion
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: today is that we are in a place in the
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: United States where a lot of protesting is happening. A
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: little over five years ago, I guess five and a
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: half years ago now was the was the killing of
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: George Floyd that sparked a lot of protesting around the
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: United States that had us thinking about protesting and at
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: the time, and so we decided to sort of look
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: at how to protest safely, and so it's it's five years,
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: five and a half years later. Have things changed not
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: so much unfortunately, but like kind of in some ways.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: So that's we will be taking that on today as well.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, technology is sort of advanced in current protests the
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: United States are centered around ICE rather than the local
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: police forces, kind of like what we saw with George
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: Floyd and stuff like that. Like, I mean, not that
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: not that those other protests aren't happening, but right now,
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: at the time it's recording, ICE is kind of the
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: target of many of our protests and or of course
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: the current administration and all the bullet that's happening there. Yeah,
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: but ICE has been an organization since two thousand and three.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: You know, they're not a new organization per se, but
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: they are kind of like an important target right now
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: for protests, and so we're going to kind of talk
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: about that throughout this this episode.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're the United States answer to, like they've been
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: appropriated and become the sort of the United States answer
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: to the Secret Police or the SS. They're probably worth
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: unpacking at some point, but I think we're at the
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: point now where we can transition to our topic d Jore,
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: and then at the after the whole thing is played,
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: when I come back with some updates and for the discussion.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: Is that correct or do you do we have more
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: than we need to do before transition?
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: Okay, no, that feels good.
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: Perfect, Well, we made it far enough that to segue
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: into this episode, we can first run an ad. All right,
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: welcome to Why we do what we do. I will
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: be your host, Abraham.
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: And I will be your co host Shane.
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: So we partner in a recording crime together, and we
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: are doing this in protest.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know sometimes that's like my favorite way to
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: get back at people. It's just simple protest, that's.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: Right, just quietly sit there, just staring. You can't make me.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: You can't make me do anything.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: That would be a really interesting way, Like what would
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: a podcast protest look like? Like? Would just be dead air.
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: If we're the ones doing the protesting.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what would we do?
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: Well? We could we could chant, you know, we could.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: I mean that would be forty five minutes of us
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: chanting like we want more vegan options.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: Heck no, we won't go.
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we have very PG protests.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: Yes you do. At the y we do what we
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: do camp shame on you.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: Whoever, have you ever been to a protest?
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: That's a really good question. I don't know that I
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: have ever actually, I mean, going to some concerts has
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: sort of felt like a protest, but it was a
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: pretty indirect one.
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like bucking the norm.
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think that I have ever actually participated
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: in a protest, and now I feel like I am
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: missing out.
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: It's a lot of fun. It's pretty intense, though it's exhausting.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah you've done that, then, Yeah, we when I was
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: a kid, we used to go.
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: I mean, there are a few different things that we
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: would do, but we would go and attend protests, especially
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: during the George W. Bush era, especially like when the
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: war on Iraq and all that kind of came up.
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: W came to town to speak at the local racetrack because
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: that's the town that I live in. So it came
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: to speak at the racetrack and we were outside protesting
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: with you know, pretty large, fairly large group and it
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: really interesting. And this is actually part of what prompted
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: the discussion, was that it was fairly dangerous because people
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: were vehemently not thrilled that we were there and would
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: throw stuff at us, and like, I mean, we almost
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: got hit with like glass bottles and other projectiles that
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: were thrown from the pickup trucks that were driving into
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: the racetrack. It was a pretty wild day. It was
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: a pretty wild day. So I've been to a few.
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: I mean, we protested in Orlando a couple times where
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: there were some neo Nazi issues going on, and so
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: we would protest out there too, and that was of
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: course pretty dangerous given the context. So yeah, interesting stuff.
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: I suppose My amount of protesting has always been more
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: like cancel culture. Yeah, as dangerous of the ground as
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: that is to be on, which is essentially just that
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: I would avoid or boycott things that I wanted to protest,
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: and I wouldn't necessarily outwardly show up with a sign
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: or anything. It was just if this was a company
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: I didn't like, or a person I didn't like, or
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: a cause I didn't like, then I wouldn't support it,
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: and I would support the direct opposition to that, or
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: I would find some other way of allocating my time
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: and resources to sort of vote if you will quietly
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: vote against things that I didn't like, or four things
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: that I did, and I love the idea of protests personally. Yeah,
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: I think the one of the best things about the
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: United States is that it is still a place that
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: you can have protests and you're unlikely to be directly
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: murdered by the government. It'll definitely happen, but less so
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: in places where you have authoritarian I guess strictly authoritarian
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: and outwardly authoritarian governments.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: I think that's something that we as in the United States.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: We have this really cool benefit of being able to
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: peacefully assemble and all that. I mean, there's kind of
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: a little bit of an attack on that right now,
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: which is kind of another thing that sparked this conversation.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: But if you're not familiar or you haven't picked this
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: up yet, today's topic is on protests, and so that's
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: what we wanted to do. We want to talk about
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: protesting in general, give some examples of protest and kind
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: of what's happened as a result of those protests, but
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: also to talk about how to do it safely, because
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: especially right now, tensions are pretty high, and the topics
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: that are being protested or the situations that are being
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: protested are incredibly charged. Emotionally charged and people are very
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: vocal about it, and so you have the situation where
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: a lot of highly emotional people in large groups can
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: result in some pretty dangerous situations. So I wanted to
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: kind of talk about that a little bit and why
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: it's important and maybe some of the psychology around it
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: and maybe some of the behavioral aspects behind it, but
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: also just how to do it safely, because you just
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: never know what's going to happen when you show up
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: at an event.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: You raise a really good point because I kind of
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: like the idea of protesting assembling peacefully, even if it's
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: not necessarily a topic. I agree with the fact that
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: you can do this, and it is a dangerous thing
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: to do, even in a place where it is allowed,
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: and so it's important to have a discussion about how
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: can we look at this, I think, both from the
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: perspective of what's being accomplished, but also what can we
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: do to ensure the safety of people who are participating
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: in this what I believe to be very culturally important
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: and relevant activity. And again, like, even if it's not
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: an issue I agree with, I would support people's right
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: and their ability to safely protest and so that's what
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: we're doing. We're taking a stand that you can protest
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: and do so safely.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: Right exactly, And I think given the context and given
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: the culture that we're in right now, there's a rise
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: in awareness, arise in an action towards social injustice. You're
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: seeing this like huge social media culture, but you're seeing
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: a lot of active protests going on, and you're seeing
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: this across the United States, and there's still this weird
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: ongoing debate on how to do this appropriately. You know,
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: you'll hear a lot of people say, like, well, vandalism
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: is wrong and you shouldn't vandalize stuff, and we're going
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: to talk about some examples of how we did vandalize
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: things and it worked in our favor. So you're going
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: to kind of hear that discussion of there's right ways
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: and wrong ways to protest, and we're not going to
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: try to get into the right and wrong of it.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: We're just we're going to get more into like the
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: safety of it, because apparently people are pretty upset about
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: kneeling during the national anthem and how that's the wrong
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: way to protest. But that's a whole rabbit hole that
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: we don't need to get down right now. So that's
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: what we're going to kind of focus on, not what's
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: right and wrong, but just necessarily like the protest movements
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: that have happened, what's been the result, how people protest it,
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: and then maybe some ways to stay safe while you
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: do it well.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: And you raise an important point that protesting can look
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: a lot of different ways, and some of them are
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: as simple as kneeling. I think there's flag burning is
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: another one, or burning effigies or symbolic things is one,
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: So maybe burning an image of somebody or drawing on it.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: And then there is ones where you are sort of
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: blocking people from doing things where you aren't physically changing
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: or doing anything, but you're putting your body in the
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: way of somebody else getting something accomplished. Thinking of the
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: people who have chained themselves to trees to protest deforestation
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: and that sort of thing is an example of this.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: So yeah, there's lots of different ways that it can look,
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: and the general point is that the civil unrest is
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: sometimes necessary to accelerate these important social issues and worked
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: forward change in the place that the culture exists that
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: is in line with the people who are out there
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: taking a stand right.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: And so let's talk a little bit about some of
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: the historical events that have occurred where protest has been
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: this really cool catalyst for change. It's been really well
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: documented that these have been like important pivotal moments in history.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: So this is this is pretty new, right, last just
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: a few years or so, the first time anyone thought
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: about this. Yeah, it's a.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: Fairly new topic. It's not well researched. It's like not
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: a whole you know, it's just it's worked in uncharted territories.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: Folks might call it a hot topic.
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: Yes, it's going to be really interesting. I think one
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: of my favorite things was like doing the research on
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: this and going into like different protest movements and looking
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: at like, oh, yeah, I know that one. Oh that's
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: a new one. I learned a new word as a
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: result of this protest, you know. So so you'll see
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: that in some of the examples that we talk about.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: Awesome, So background time, Yeah, let's do the background on this.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: So protests or demonstrations, you know, whatever you want to
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: call it, they're not new, despite our equips earlier, you know,
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: and there are actually countless examples that you can find
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: throughout history for a very very long period of time,
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: and so this is not a new thing. This is
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: something that since society has existed pretty much that protests
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: have been a thing that's occurred.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: And as you said and we were describing earlier, this
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: form of protest can look at a lot of different ways.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: You can even categorize it in a lot of different ways.
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: And this can be as small as individual protest actions
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: like the things that I was describing for myself, all
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: the way to larger group demonstrations, and you can maybe
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: even make the argument that there were whole cultural movements
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: that were a form of protest, like the Enlightenment period
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: in Eurocentric people was a protest maybe against religious oligarchies
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: or just you know, having a church state and the
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: dark ages that followed or proceeded as a protest against
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: science and knowledge maybe, And not that I think that
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: the people who participated in those cultural moments would have
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: thought about it or categorized it that way, but just
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: saying that, like, this is a pretty broad definition that
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: can be described a lot of different ways that I
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: think broadly classifying it as motivation toward or away from
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: some particular outcome or process, I think you could maybe
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: generally categorize things that way as protests.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely so, Like one example that I always think
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: of when I think of protest is the French Revolution.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: This this whole thing, right, Like you know, at the time,
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: these protests were looking at breaking down a monarchy system
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: that was occurring and helped establish a republic within the country.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: And that's a really nice way of looking at how
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: that protest went. But a lot of people had their
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: heads cut off during this time.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a brutal one that, in my opinion,
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: does not make protests look very good.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not a great place to start. We will
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: get in the sun that make it look a little
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: bit better. But this was an example of where people
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: there was a civil unrest, there were people that were
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: vocal about it, and it just came to a head.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: It got to a place where it shouldn't have gone.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: Hopefully protests do not have to get that far before
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: social change does occur, but in this situation, it was
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: one that kind of like maybe crossed the line a
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: little bit. But it is an example all a protest
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: that comes up quite a bit where the general public
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: was actively protesting, they were actively demonstrating, they were actively
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: involved in trying to get this change to occur, and
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: the system simply would not change.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: You know, looking at this list, and I just realized
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: that I want to point out to everybody there are
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: there have been so many examples of this across history, cultures, countries,
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: and things like that. The ones that we're describing here
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: are largely European centric and American centric, and that's because
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: that's sort of the culture that we belong to. But
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: there are a lot of really important protests that have
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: happened in other cultures and other places around the world
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: that are important to discuss as well and what they're
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: get into. So don't take this, I guess, as a
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: comprehensive list. So speaking of Americans, there was the American Revolution.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: There's also a protest against the British imperialists. We want
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: no part of it. You can take your tea and
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: stick it.
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: I love this example because when people talk about vandalism
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: in relation to protest, this is the one that always
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: comes up. The American Revolution, and like the Boston Tea
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: Party in particular. Like people say, and you'll hear this
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: argument about what's going on now, vandalism doesn't work. It
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: doesn't make any sense, but literally, there are a group
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: of Americans that threw crates and crates and crates of
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: tea into the harbor and destroyed property as a sign
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: of protests. So it's kind of this weird example where
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: it's like, you all remember the Boston Tea Party, right.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: They were trying to make an entire harbor the world's
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: largest cup of tea and.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: They were going for English breakfast, which I thought was weird.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they succeeded.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: Incidentally, there's also the New York shirtwaist Strike of nineteen
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: oh nine. This is the word that I learned was
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: what shirt waists were. So in nineteen oh nine, there
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: was a major labor strike that was led by a
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: Jewish women working in shirtwaist factories. And what a shirt
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: waist is is it's a garment that was a dress
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: that seemed to be too complicated to serve as a
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: functional type of clothing, but it was just really complicated
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: type of undergarment and it basically what it was was
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: a dress with sleeves and a collar. Now, these protests
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: focused primarily on improving wages, improving work conditions, improving work hours,
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: so it was kind of like a unionized strike from
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: these types of clothing factories and these shirtwaist factories in
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: New York. But it was a major movement, one because
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: it was a major labor strike in the United States.
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: But two it was one of the first female women
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: led strikes that occurred, one of these first female protests
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: that occurred that was well documented and actually resulted in
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: major changes.
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: Are shirtwaists still around I.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: Don't think so. I think that we've gone to the
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: place where we wear just T shirts and underwear.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: Okay, I was going to say, this seems like a
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: very odd piece of clothing to me reading about it.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: Another one. So, of course, there are many protests that happened,
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: especially around things like women's rights around that similar time
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: up and through definitely including the twenties, and certainly some
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: protests around prohibition and things. But the next I think
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: really major one that is worth getting into again from
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: this American point of view, is the civil rights movement.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: Of course, two major figures that you're going to think
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: of there are Martin Luther King Junior and Malcolm X.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: And these are one of the most famous leaders of
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: that movements. But we also want to acknowledge the contributions
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: of the many people who participated in that, notably recently
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: passed John Lewis, who was also a really important figure,
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: and we want to acknowledge his contribution to the civil
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: rights movement as well.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think in this movement in particular, one
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: thing that's important to note is, especially in the discussion
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: of right and wrong or appropriate ways of protest versus
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: not appropriate ways to protest, Martin Luther King and Malcolm
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: X had very different views on how to approach this movement.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, very much so, And even though they were on.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: The same quote unquote theme, they still had these very
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: different approaches and there was no right or wrong way
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: in that moment except for just looking at how they're
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: moving forward. And so I think that was one of
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: the more interesting ones and kind of really gets into
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: the complexity that is protests in movements and social movements
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: and stuff like that, because everybody's going to have a
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: perspective on it, how it should happen perfect.
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you're absolutely right. And another one that I think
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: maybe was a little less well known but I think
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: has gained some more attention in recent years was the
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: Stonewall riots in nineteen sixty nine, and I guess essentially
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: this happened around a bar. It was called the Stonewall
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: in it is famous for being a bar that was
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: a safe place for people in the lgbt qia plus community.
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: And so this was focused primarily on moving the rights
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: of the people of that community forward, especially after what
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: had happened was there was a police raid on this bar,
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: and for no other reason than it was home to
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: a safe place for people who belonged to the lgbtquia
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: plus community. And so of course they didn't have all
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: those initials at the time, but were retrospectively, I guess,
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: referring to them that way. The police raided this bar,
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: there was many protests that followed, and although the raid
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: was a catalyst, the protests were really to the advancement
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: of equality and better treatment of LGBT rights. And I
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: think one of the most important movements for the community
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: that has ever happened in this country, right.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: And so you'll see that kind of in these small,
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: these microcosms of communities and populations too, where like a
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: group of people will have these major milestone moments. And
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: we've kind of talked about the black community. We've talked
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: about women's rights and stuff like that too. But there's
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: also veterans in dealing with that too. And you saw
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: a lot of protests happening along the Vietnam War and
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: a lot of protests against the Vietnam War. These protests
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: were taking place in the sixties and seventies and took
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: a lot of different forums, like whether people were draft dodging,
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: whether people were actively protesting, faking illness. I mean, Iggy
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: Pop from the Stooges was almost drafted and he what
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: he went into I want to say, he went into
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: get tested and just stripped naked and started masturbating in
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: front of everybody, and that's how he got out of
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: being drafted into Vietnam. So there were people that like
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: those individual protests, there were larger protests. There were these large,
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: large movements, but all kinds of different ways for people
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: to stop the war but also to get out of
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: the war.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: So another one is zipping forward in time a little bit,
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: the Tianeman Square protests. This is another one where we
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: are outside of America now, and this is one of
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: the most famous of all time, and this was a
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine And of course there is one of
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: the most iconic images ever. If you ever look up
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: the Tianeman Square protests, you'll be able to see this
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: image of the square that's fairly zoomed out, and there
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: is a tank moving down the street and there's a
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: man who is just standing in front of the tank
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: and he I think it's carrying some grocery bags or
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: something like that, but he is just standing in front
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: of the tank to block it from its path. And
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: these were student led protests in China that focused on
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: improving conditions related to freedoms in China. So, for example,
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of control over things like the press,
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: there was not free speech, there was no democracy, and
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: so they were really trying to get free press, free speech,
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: trying to get democratic governing of some kind. This unfortunately
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: resulted to move toward martial law instead, and the government
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: actually open fired on the protesters, and so this end
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: up ended up being very dangerous for protesters and a
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: lot of people were killed as a result, and this
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: was described I think as the Tieneman Square massacre and
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: looked back upon as an instance in which like this
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: was I mean, the protest itself I think was appropriate,
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: but history does not look kindly upon the Chinese government's
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: role in how they handle that protest.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think it's important to you to note
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: that just because there is a protest or a movement
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: going on doesn't mean the change will occur. I mean,
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: if you have somebody who is an authority and has
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: enough power that can suppress it, or if the movement
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: doesn't continue after some major event like this, then then
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: sometimes these movements will die down and the change won't happen.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: So just because we're protesting doesn't mean that things are
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: going to happen. It's a lot of it is going forward,
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: continuing to go forward, continuing to fight the fight, finding
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: new ways to fight that fight. I mean, that's a
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: lot of the flexibility and kind of the nebulousness that
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: that goes along with protests is that it's not just
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: a singular action.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: Speaking of which and this isn't actually in our notes,
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: but another one that I think is important to discuss
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: and going back to the American centric view of this. So,
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: the Tanaman Square protest was in nineteen eighty nine, and
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: right at that same time, there were protests going on
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: in the United States that had been going on for
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: some time. To improve conditions for citizens with physical impairments,
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: and this ended up including citizens with other mental health
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: issues as well, resulting in the Americans with Disabilities Act
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: or Ada in nineteen ninety, so just a year later
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: there was that, but there was there was a lot
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: of protests where you had people who were going to
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: government buildings and in Washington, d C. And you know,
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: they were out on the lawn out in front of
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: the buildings. They were trying to get secure rights for
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: people with disabilities, because treatment of people with various disabilities
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: in this country has just been absolutely horrific, Yes, especially
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: up to that point, and that helped. And there's still
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: room for improvement.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, absolutely, we have a long way to go.
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: I mean it has gotten better, but we have a
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: long way to go with that.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: But I don't think anything's happened since then, right, No,
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: no new changes or protests or anything.
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: No, nothing. That's that was the last one.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: Okay, perfect, so we can move on. Okay, great now,
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: obviously we're joking.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: The most recent one, I think probably one that really
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: brings this idea of protest and kind of in really
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: the discussion on how to appropriately protest, you see this
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: a lot right now is the Black Lives Matter movement
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: that's going on in twenty twenty and the current state
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: of the world. I mean, while we're recording this, there
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: are still protests going on. All you have to do
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: is just look up what's going on in Portland. All
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: you have to look up is a lot of the
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: online movements that are going on with Breonna Taylor. There
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: are a lot of things that are still happening in
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: protest to the current system that is identified as racially
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: unjust systematically racism, systemically racist, I should say, And you
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: have this current movement right now that we are in
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: the middle of that I imagine will be going on
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: for some time, but also will probably be pretty important
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: in the next probably few decades to look at and
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: look back on.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: Yes, so it's useful to point out where there are protests,
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: they are usually counter protests of some sort, and so
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: there are other types of protests that are going on
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: in conjunction with this movement. But this is one that
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: has definitely spanned quite a few countries, quite a few
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: places around the world and received a lot of attention,
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: and I think importantly so, especially for a group that
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: has just been consistently marginalized in a lot of other countries.
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: So to kind of follow up on that point, without
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: these movements, without what's going on, without seeing these things
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: happen in history, it's not likely that these rapid social
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: changes that did occur as a result would have occurred
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: in such a timely way. We're seeing this in real
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: life action, right, So you see this with Black Lives Matter,
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: where you see the protests started erupting, and then the
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: cops that were responsible for George Floyd's death were arrested
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: pretty quickly when the riots started occurring and started really
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: ramping up. We can't really say what would have happened otherwise,
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: but historically it's likely that these cops probably wouldn't have
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: been arrested as soon, if they would have been arrested
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: at all. And that's just one sliver of this entire movement,
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: And you'll see that where without these movements, they're kind
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: of a spark for change, and so important to note
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: why these are important, and note that, you know, sometimes
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: it's necessary to get the movement going when maybe other
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: lines of action weren't working.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: All right, I think it's time this podcast episode was
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: essentially intended to be a how to podcast, and there
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: was a lot to discuss there, and I'm really happy
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: that we did because I think it's helpful to talk
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: about It's awesome and encouraging to hear people who are
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: joining movements to stand up for what they believe in.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: I think all of that's great. And this has, as
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: we mentioned, historically, been very dangerous. A lot of people
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: have lost their lives during protests or been seriously injured.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: A lot of damage has happened during protests, and although
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: they do often affect change, sometimes things do get worse.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: So ultimately, what we want to I think describe here
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: is how to do this in such a way that
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: your safety is maximized. We don't want anybody getting hurt
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: while exercising their right to stand up for a cause
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: that's important.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: Right, So it's kind of like it not I don't
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: want to compare it to camping, but you have to
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: kind of prepare yourself and set up so that you
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: have supplies and set up that you know kind of
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: the terrain when you walk into a situation. So what
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: we did was we pulled a couple of different resources.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: We pulled from self dot com, but also from Amnesty International,
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: and we're gonna link the resources to this too, because
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: I think they're important resources. But basically, what they're noting
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: is that there are a lot of dangers that go
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: along with protesting, like you can't really control the police reaction,
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: or you can't really prepare for the idea that maybe accelerationists,
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: which we'll talk about later, might show up on the
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: scene and actually spark some different challenges. So because you
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: can't prepare for those things happening, what you can do
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: is make sure that you are safe in how you prepare.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: So again, what we're talking about here is in the
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: context that we that we're probably going to reference a
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: lot is what's going on right now in the United
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: States with the Black Lives Matter movement, and how dangerous
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: that is to go to those protests sometimes given that
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: the police reaction might not be great, or there might
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: be some unruly protesters that are going to cause you up.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: So the first step that we would talk about here
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: is that you want to go with a partner or
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: a small group. Okay, that goes back to elementary school
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: and goes back to the idea of the buddy system.
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's harder for something to happen to you and
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: have no one know where you are. What happens if
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: you have a few people there who are looking out
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: for you. So yeah, bring a friend, m everybody you know,
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: have a leash around you so that you're all together.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: Just kidding, they'll do that, but essentially, have your whereabouts
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: be known and have some people there for support if
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: you need it. Yeah, and to support them. Yeah, absolutely,
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: accountability my friends. Yeah, all right. Step two dress comfortably
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: and functionally. Do not wear your nicest suit to these protests.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: You want to wear something that's going to allow you
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: to breathe, that you're not going to get too hot
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: or too cold, that you have some amount of protection,
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: and it has some flexibility to it. So I mean
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: probably a like ninja outfit is the most flexible thing
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: you can be wearing. But you know, again, you were
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: dressing in a way that you are covered, not too hot,
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: not too cold, but otherwise safe.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and something you could run in too.
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: Yes, and you'll probably want some pockets.
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: Yes, pockets are cool. So speaking of pockets, you want
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: to bring additional supplies like an ID, emergency contact information,
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: bring cash, bring snacks, bring water, and bring enough water,
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: not to just drink because you might be out all day,
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: but bring enough water to rinse if necessary. In case
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: there's tear gas or pepper spray or something like that.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: You want to bring an extra change of clothes, bring
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: a mask, goggles, first aid kit, medically necessary items like
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: if you need an EpiPen or you have asthma and
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: you have it inhaler, make sure you bring that. If
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: you are on medication that you have to that requires
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: you to take it multiple times during the day, make
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: sure you bring enough of a supply to get through that.
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: But this is the kind of stuff you want to
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: have enough to get through a day or two.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: Yes, and if you were to then have to be
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: either detained or maybe even in hiding, having those supplies
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: will be especially important. So yes, we'll review the Listen,
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: we're done. I was going to do it now, but
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: let's wait till we get to the end.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: Another one is that most protests are going to have
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: some kind of organizer or a group of organizers, and
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: that they are sort of taking the lead on how
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: that protest is going, and generally speaking, you want to
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: follow the organizer's instructions, like unless they're actively leading you
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: into harm, and like, that's pretty clear they're actually really
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: trying to protect everyone's safety, and so follow the organizer's
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: instructions to help keep everything moving in a coordinated way.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: Right, because you want to be careful with the idea
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: that because if we do have the right to a
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: peaceful assembly, right, but the minute that another agency or
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: governing body determines that it's not peaceful or anything like that,
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: that's when all hell breaks loose. And so that's where
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: we kind of talk about this idea that you want
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: to keep in mind that violence might be a possibility
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: even if you are on the side whereas peaceful protesting
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: and you are doing these things, you have to be
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: prepared that it could happen in emotionally charged situations. It
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: might not be from you, it might not be from
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: the organizer. It may be from either like a counterpar
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: pest situation or anti protest movements. You're seeing plenty of
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: videos right now. One of my favorite videos right now, though,
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: is this guy showed up in the middle of a
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: Black Lives Matter movement protest and try to light off
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: fireworks to kind of incite riots within it. But the
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: protester stopped him, grabbed the fireworks and threw him back
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: into his car when he tried to drive away, and
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: they blew up in his car. WHOA, yeah, like mortars,
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: Like it was like really intense. The car stopped. I mean,
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: I'm sure the guy is fine, but it was a
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: really intense thing. Like you see this car just kind
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: of go like just smoke everywhere. So wow, just be
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: mindful of that, like violence might happen. You may not
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: even be part of the inciting incident. You may be
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: just part of the group that's there. I mean, you
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: see plenty of pictures of people who have been shot
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: with rubber bullets, and now there's people who are blind
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: in an eye because they got hit in the face
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: with the rubber bullet and stuff. So you have to
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: keep That's why the goggles are gonna be cool. But
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: also just keep that in mind as you're kind of
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: going out there.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: Another one here is to if you're injured or see
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: any emergency, to find medical attention or a medic as
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: soon as possible. Don't let those things just sort of
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: linger and just assume that they're just a casualty of
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: the protest. And I think the general recommendation here is
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: look out for one another. I mean really, that's one
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: of the biggest things here. So seek medical attention if needed,
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: and generally look out for one another, especially with respect
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: to medical situations.
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. And you also want to be mindful of
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: dehydration or heat exhaustion. You know, in Florida we kind
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: of know to carry like jugs and jugs of water
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: with us because it's so hot. But you know, people
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: who are not used to being outside all day or
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: being in events all day, it's really easy to dehydrate,
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: and it's really easy to suffer from heatstroke. So make
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: sure that you're mindful of that and you take breaks
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: as necessary.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: Well. I wonder if it would be worth in that
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: case bringing something like an umbrella or a hat or
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: something like that where you can shade yourself from the
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: elements if needed.
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely cool.
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: All right. Another one that's important that I think probably
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: gets missed a lot is that this is an intense
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: activity that is very different from what you're normally going
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: to be doing throughout your normal day. I assume, yeah,
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: most for most people, and so be prepared that there's
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: going to be a little bit of mental health fallout
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: after an event like this where you are emotionally charged,
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: you might experience some depression or anxiety or paranoia might
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: be one, and so there's a lot of things that
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: you might feel. So just no going into this that
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: to try and prepare yourself mentally for the intensity and
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: have some kind of support and decompression available for you
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: after you're done with the protest, so that you can
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: this isn't something that ends up really adversely impacting your
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: overall well being.
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: I think part of preparing for your mental health in
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: this situation too is also understanding that this is kind
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: of a marathon situation and not necessarily a singular act.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: So like, you know, you go to a protest expecting
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: movement towards an outcome, and you may not see that
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: movement right then, you may not see in the next
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: protest or the protest after that. So it's important to
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: kind of prepare yourself and maybe reset your expectations as
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: you walk into a protest that like, hey, we are
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: here being active. This may not be the thing that
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: fixes everything in the moment.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, another thing too that's recommended, especially given the current
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: state of the world and some of the challenges that
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: are going on with the protest is that you want
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: to cop proof your phone temporarily at least. And so
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: that sounds kind of funny, it sounds kind of interesting, like,
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: but there's a reason why we do this, and there's
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: a reason why protests might do this, because when you
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: start recording video, when you start trying to capture those moments,
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: there are people, unfortunately, that will want to destroy that equipment,
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: destroy that video, destroy that evidence to kind of maybe
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: create a narrative around a situation that didn't actually happen.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: So the first thing that's recommended, especially if you get detained,
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: is to make sure that your phone is PIN or
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: password enabled and not by facial recognition, because if the
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: person who's detaining you does not have your PIN number
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: or your password, they can't access what's in your phone, right,
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: but if they have your face, they can just pull
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: your phone up to your face and then go into
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: your phone.
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I just want to go back to something
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: you said, is that not only could they try and
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: tamper with evidence that's on your phone, but also try
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: and access a lot of personal information about you that
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: you may not want them to access. And they might
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: just ask you for your phone straight up. You are
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: not obligated to give that to them or to unlock
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: it for them, by the way, yes, So we want
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: to make sure that that's an important piece of information
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: that is your private property. It is not something that
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: they can confiscate and have access to your private information
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: that is on that device, right, all right, So during
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: the event that you're protesting in turn your phone onto
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: airplane mode primarily to prevent any specific tracking or geotracking
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: that some apps in your phone might be doing. I mean,
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: you could go through and I think turn off the
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: geotracking that would on all of the apps and devices
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: that you have. That might help, but I think just
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: putting it on airplane mode is a general safe way
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: of avoiding being tracked.
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And also make sure to create a data backup
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: prior to the event, making sure that like whatever you
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: record or whatever happens gets sent somewhere else so that
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: it's not just on that device, because if evidence does
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: get destroyed, I mean even by accident, if your phone
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: gets destroyed, it gets stopped on, it gets thrown out somehow,
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: like whatever might happen, you still want to have that
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: backup or some kind of evidence or some kind of
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: permanent product that this event did happen, and there is
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: some kind of proof that it did.
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: Yes. Another thing is there's a lot of facial recognition
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: stuff out there, so you might consider painting your face.
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: And tangentially related to that because of the era of
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: COVID nineteen is actually wear face coverings, something that's pretty breathable,
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: but definitely cover your you know, wear a mask, cover
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: your face, and that's both protection for people around you,
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: for yourself as well as it can prevent some of
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: the facial recognition software. Right. There's another piece of recommendation
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: that I'm going to throw up personally, which is, do
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: not go to a protest with the intention of inciting violence.
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: Do not go there because you're planning to hurt somebody else.
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: You might be planning to do some kind of property
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: damage or symbolic destruction of something, And I'm not going
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: to weigh on in on that pro or con. I
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: think that's beyond the scope of what we're discussing here,
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: but like, do not go to protest if you're planning
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: on hurting another human being. Just stay home, maybe seek
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: professional counseling. Yeah, that is like a surefireway to put
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: yourself in danger so.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: Well and put other people that you're working with in
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: das Yeah too, it undermines the movement. Yeah, it's creating
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: a situation that you just don't want to be a
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: part of, and it won't do anybody any good.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: Perfect to that point, if you are going to protest
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: something where the position you are taking is advocating against
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: the well being of other people, then I also would
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: consider would recommend you consider not doing that. Yeah, And
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: I think that gets tricky, like because I don't want
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: to say don't counter protest. There are plenty of things
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: that I would happily counter protest that I see that
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: happen in protest that I think that counter protesting can
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: be very good. And there are there are protests that
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: start that are things that I absolutely wouldn't support. And
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: I just think, just consider, are you there because you're
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: supporting a cause that is that for the betterment of
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: other people? Or are you there because as you are
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: supporting a cause that is very selfish against the recommendation
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: of experts and is would result in the harm of
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: other people? Yes, And so choose a cause that I
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: think is worth protesting and is for the betterment of others,
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: is my thought on that.
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and do no harm, like be loud, be vocal,
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: do what you need to do, but don't hurt anybody.
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: Period. There's some other things that Amnesty International includes that
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: are not just the list of things. There are some
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: like additional tips and tricks that they include, and we
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: definitely want to go over those. We'll kind of go
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: over these pretty quickly because we did cover some of
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: these a little bit, but we're going to kind of
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: go over quickly in a way that will give you
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: some additional insight on some challenges that protesters have experienced.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so we've got stories from the front lines on
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: how to do this, So let's start. We'll do with
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: some what to do, what not to do, and what
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: to bring. So I'll start with what to do first,
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: plan for essential needs. We described some of what that
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: might entail earlier. Remain calm, I think is an important
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: one as much as possible and calm. If you get escalated,
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: that's likely to escalate other people. And if they get escalated,
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: you just have to try and fight through that and
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: remain calm yourself. Be mindful of physical or mental degradation
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: that might occur. This is an exhausting activity that can
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: take a huge mental toll, especially when you see violence
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: being done to others, to yourself or others around you.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: And then document and film where necessary, So try and
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: get some kind of record or you know, make sure
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: that the narrative does not spin out of control and
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: go into the hands of those people who are really
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: at fault for creating a problem in the first place.
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: And instead there's lots of evidence to support multiple viewpoints
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: to get a clear picture of what went down.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, So to piggyback on that, there are some
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: things that you don't want to do, and so two
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: things I would start with is don't wear tinctures or
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: any sort of lotions or anything that are oil based.
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: And don't wear contact lenses if you can help it,
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: because both of those things can actually trap chemicals either
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: onto your skin or in your eyes, and that will
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: become a larger problem when you're seeking medical help or
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: trying to rinse, like you might have to actually take
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: your contact out the rints, but then you can't take
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: your contact out because your hands are covered in tear
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: gas or pepper spray. So try to avoid tinctures that
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: are oil based, try to avoid contact lenses, but also
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: avoid wearing loose clothing or loose jewelry. Right now, I
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: have really long hair, so I probably put my hair
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: up and put it back like so that somebody couldn't
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: grab my hair. But those are things that you want
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: to avoid doing while you're there. Avoid that loose clothing,
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: avoid loose jwelry. That's actually why I took my plugs out.
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: I had a client almost rip my ears off because
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: he got his fingers in the holes of my ears.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: Eh. Okay, And partially I think with the loose clothing,
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: like it can get caught on stuff, it can be
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: difficult to move in if it's too loose, So you
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: want to you know, some flexibility, but not that you're
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: like wrapped in a blanket basically trying to move. Yeah,
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: all right, Stuff to bring You want to bring a
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: water bottle, particularly a water bottle with a squirt top
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: is ideal control that flow, also less likely to spill
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: in case the lid word to not be put on appropriately.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: Bring some snacks as we mentioned before, bring your id,
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: Bring cash. Bring something to document the event that could
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: include a watch, paper and pencil, et cetera. Maybe you're
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: out there in the protests with an iPad and an
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: Apple pencil and you're taking notes like cool. I guess, yeah,
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: that works. I guess whatever works. Bring menstrual pads and
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: the event that you're arrested, you might not be able
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: to change out a tampon, So just have you know,
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: some sanitation there for yourself. And then as we mentioned
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: a first aid kits and wet wipes and tissues. I
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: want to be able to wipe the tear gas out
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: of your eyes.
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, exactly, like if you get it off your skin,
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: get off your hands, all that stuff. Now, there's a
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: list of things of what to wear. We kind of
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: mentioned not wearing loose clothing, but we also like to
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: go to the other side, which is like what to do,
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: and this is again from Amstey internationally, say to wear
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: shadow resistant swim goggles, especially if you have a situation
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: where like let's say, rubber bullets are being fired. It
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: won't shatter into your eyeballs. So if you can avoid
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: wearing glass that will shatter on your face, that would
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: be awesome. An N nine to five face mask, especially today,
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: that'll be helpful. Shoes that you can run in, and
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: clothes that covers your skin, like any clothing that covers
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: your skin, like long sleeves if you can that's light
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: enough so that you don't dehydrate or overheat, but it's
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: going to protect you from the sun and protect you
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: from pepper spray. They also recommend wearing a bandana to
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: cover your nose and mouth, usually soaked in water, lemon juice,
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: or vinegar. That's going to help kind of avoid some
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: of the in kind of like diminish the effects of
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: some of the chemicals that do get sprayed. Make sure
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: you have fresh clothing, and make sure you're wearing a hat,
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: and usually some kind of sun or chemical weapon protection
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: is that's what we would wear a hat for, is
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: to kind of protect you from that stuff too.
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: Chin. Have you ever been shot with tear gas or
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: had to breathe in tear gas for any reason?
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: I have not, but I've been shot with a paintball,
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: and that heard enough that I don't want to be
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: shot with anything.
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: Paintball's tear gas, same thing, Yeah, close enough, Just kidding.
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: I've never been tear gas. I have experienced pepper spray. Actually,
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: funny story. When my brother was little, he accidentally found
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: my dad's pepper spray and locked and had the trigger
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: pulled with it, and then locked the trigger in place.
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: So basically the canister into our house and that stuff
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: is horrific. Oh god, it's just so bad. So anyway,
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: if you do get tear gased, here are some things
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: that you can do or maybe prevent the some prevention
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: and some reaction here. One, if you have a gas mask,
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: go ahead and wear it. Both it will help you
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: against the tear gas and it will help protect your identity,
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: so gas masks can be helpful. Two, stay calm. If
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: you panic and you start breathing really heavily, you'll actually
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: breathe in more of it, which is more irritating. So
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: try and do your zen. He describes it on parks
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: and rec I think as Buddha on coeludes of Yeah,
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: you are as zen and calm as you can be.
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: If you do get hit with a tear gas, blow
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: your nose, rinse your mouth, cough and spit. Try to
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: avoid as much as possible any swallowing. You really want
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: to try and get it out of your system as
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: much as you can. If you are wearing contacts, try
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: and help someone else remove them for you. You do
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: not want to be deliberately putting tear gas into your
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: eyes by using your hands that have some of that
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: stuf on them into your eyes to pull them out.
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: That's going to make it worse. So if you have
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: someone who can help you, then try and have them
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: help you. Use an eye flush that can help get
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: it out of your eyes. And it's half liquid and
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: acid and half water and so you can use that
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: to flush out to your gas in your eyes.
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so go grab bottles of pepto bismol.
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly right.
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: That was one of the recommendations as I was reviewing it.
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: They're like, like, mix pepto bismol and water and use that.
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: Wow, Okay, it works. I thought you were a kidding.
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: So that's great. No, normally that sounds like something I
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: would say to be trolling, but I.
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: Promise you I wasn't this time.
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: Good to know.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: So the last thing that they want you to know
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: too is to make sure you know your rights. And
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: so this is going to be one of the more
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: challenging things to recognize because every state, every country, every
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: place on the planet's going to have different a different
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: set of rights that you can access. So we're going
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: to focus on again US centric specifically, because this is
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: where we're kind of orienting a lot of the discussion,
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: and so we want to kind of make sure that
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: that point is really important when we get into this.
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: The main thing is making sure you know your rights overall.
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: Knowing your rights wherever you are, and the ones we'll
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: talk about it are United States specific, but in countries
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: where you have different laws, like knowing what those laws
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: are is going to be helpful.
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely So in the United States, we have the
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: freedom of expression in its assembly, and we have a
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: protection of the right to freedom of assembly, so we
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: can protest. We can do all that without dealing with
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: the backlash or any sort of like legal penalties that
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: go along with that. We have freedom from excessive use
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: of force, so you should be able to go to
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: a peaceful protest and not be exposed to excessive force.
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: That that is a really important point we do we do.
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: I know, I wonder, I wonder.
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: If h I think they forgot about that one.
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like it sounds like nobody nobody's paying
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: attention to that one. But you do have a right
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: to freedom of excessive use of force, freedom from Yeah,
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: freedom from let me be you don't get to You
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: don't get to excessively use force.
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: Or have it use against you.
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you have a freedom from being a target of it.
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: You also have the right to medical assistance that is
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: made available to so they can't withhold the medical assistance
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: just because you are protesting. You have freedom from arbitrary
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: rest and attention, which means they cannot just snatch you
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: up wearing unmarked uniforms and throw you in an unmarked
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: van and drive you to an undisclosed location for an
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: undetermined period of time. That is illegal. It is against
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: the constitution, and the government cannot do it to you.
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: At least in the United States. They should not be
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: able to do it to you. Yeah, they're doing it
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: for some reason.
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: Yes, the laws say that they can't at least.
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: So there's a whole bunch of people that need to
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: go back to law school.
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: Or go for the first time or go at all.
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, or just read a law.
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, read a constitution. You also have you have the
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: right to complain. You absolutely can voice your opinion about things.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: That is something that is supposed to be guaranteed to you.
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: And another one that I mentioned before is you have
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: a right to privacy. You do not have to disclose
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: information about yourself or private things because you also incidentally
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: or you to be detained or arrested. You have the
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: right to an attorney, and the attorney will tell you
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: what kind of things it is safe to disclose and
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: not so honestly, like, if all else fails, like you
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: can just keep your mouth shut until you have an
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: attorney there to help you, because you will get an
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: attorney in some capacity if you are being officially arrested,
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: and if you are detained, you do not have to
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: speak or give them any information. So just something to
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: keep in minds is those are rights that are afforded
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: to you. Presumably Yes, in the United States.
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely. I've seen videos of people who are exercising
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: their rights in the face of pretty adverse situations and
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: they are Okay. You'll see this a lot with videos
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: that are kind of criticizing ice as they should, and
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: you'll see these situations where people will the officers will
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: try to detain somebody and the person will know their
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: rights and actually shut them down right then, and the
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: people will not get detained and it's all okay. So
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: it's important, really important to know your rights and to
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: what degree you can exercise those rights to prevent some
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: unnecessary arrests or or unnecessary violence.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and another thing that's helpful in knowing your rights
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: here is that just because you have those rights afforded
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: to you does not mean that everybody who is on
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: the authoritative side of those rights are going to necessarily
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: respect those rights. But if you then escalate in that situation,
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: then they can retroactively say that they had reason to
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: use the force and detention that they used. So I
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: guess the going back to this recommendation of remain calm,
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: because if you are exercising your rights and you're doing
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: so under the conditions that you are being calm and peaceful,
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: then you will be on the right side of that
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: and you will win any litigation that might come out
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: of that. Well, you'll probably win, I guess I can't
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: guarantee that, but you'll be on the right side of
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: that historical event because if, yeah, if you start going
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: off the rails and start attacking them, then at that
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: point the gloves are off and they will be able
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: to claim anything and so protect yourself by knowing your
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: rights and standing up for your rights. You can vocalize
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: your rights, as Shane mentioned, and that can also help
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: de escalate a situation. But if you escalate, then you
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: might miss an opportunity to be on the right side
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: of that situation.
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So with all that being said, one
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: thing we wanted to do is because again, this is
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: a psychology podcast, so we want so what does this
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: all have to do with behavior and psychology and all that,
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: and so we want to take a little bit to
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: dig into that. We won't spend too much time on it,
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: but it is important to kind of know that there
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: are psychological and behavioral aspects that go along with protesting
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: because it is such a unique situation. So to kind
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: of start this section, protesting is interesting because it calls
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: for some kind of change, It calls for some kind
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: of social justice, some kind of movement that doesn't necessarily
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: happen right away. So people are engaging in these behaviors
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: and usually what we understand about behavior is that behavior
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: will contact some kind of reward pretty quickly after our
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: behavior occurs. With protests, there might be some other rewards
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: that come along, but for the most part, the movement
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: of the protest doesn't really change very quickly. It's usually
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: a long process. Civil rights movement was years and years
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: and years before any any movement happened, So there's not
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: a lot of reward that's coming out of the protest
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: behavior in that moment. So it becomes this unique phenomenon
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: that we start investigating from that perspective. Like, for example,
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: when the protests are going on, Breonna Taylor's arresting officers
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: have yet to be arrested, and the protests are still occurring,
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: We're talking about months and months and months of a
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: behavior occurring without any sort of direct reward.
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: And another example of this too is hunger strikes that
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: can take a really long time, people who will protest
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: by starving themselves, and that that can last last quite
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: a while. So that can be another situation where you
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: don't see change happen right away, but just an example
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: of what those situations can look like.
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: Yep, exactly. So another aspect that I want to talk
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: about too is this idea of social influence, Like you'll
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: see other people kind of engaging in behaviors and you'll
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: see this modeled behavior. And so when you're at a protest,
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: you'll see some things happen and you hear people kind
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: of talk about getting swept up into the moment right
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: or they'll kind of go with the flow. And that's
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: really great for peaceful protests because you'll see a lot
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: of people modeling the same behavior we want to see.
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: We see a lot of people saying we're gonna stand strong,
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: We're going to engage with this particular behavior because it's
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: safe and we're seeing that there's some movement in this moment.
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: But it can also go horribly wrong. So, for example,
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: i mentioned accelerationists before, some people who are part of
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: counter protest movements will show up on the side of
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: the protests, quote unquote, and they will start stuff. They'll
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: actually like start breaking stuff, they'll start engaging in vandalism,
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: they'll start turning that peaceful protest into something more violent,
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: and people will follow suit. People will model that behavior
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: because they're seeing it happen, and so that's really important
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: to know that that's a phenomenon that exists. It's this
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: idea that there's this model behavior that can occur and
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: can turn a protest on its head really quickly.
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: This sort of goes back to this idea of following
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: the organizer of the protest, the people who are there
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: sort of leading the protest, because they are very unlikely
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: to accelerate that sort of thing. And as mentioned, people
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: might try and set it up so that protests get
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: out of hand, so that they can that will result
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: in a police presence and retaliation. And so if you
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: happen to notice just that there's a random pile of
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: small bricks by where you are protesting, consider not grabbing
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: one and throwing it at the police.
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: You know, Yeah, don't touch the bricks.
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Again, like if you accelerate, then they will too,
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: and a lot of people can get hurt in those situations.
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: So don't accelerate.
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: I think, decelerate if you can.
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, remain calm, Buddha on coiludes. Usually the things that
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: we do, the behaviors that we engage in, tend to
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: result in a pretty immediate outcome for us. That's why
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: we do a lot of the things that we do.
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: And so it's interesting to look at protests because they
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: can be really delayed reward and sort of ask the question,
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: so why do these continue to occur and maintain even
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: though there doesn't seem to be a really the main
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: payoff doesn't seem to be occurring. Well, I think first
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: of all, that there are often little incremental things that
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: happen that function as intermediate rewards, that are like steps
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: toward change. So there are lots of things that we
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: do throughout our lives that are like their symbolic of
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: progress toward an award. So, for example, we don't usually
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: get paid every hour on the hour that we've completed
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: work or a work task. We usually get paid once
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: a month or you know, every couple of weeks or
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: something like that, and so we know how to measure
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: our progress over the course of time toward a particular outcome, right,
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: And I think a similar thing is going on here
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: is that if you see a lot of people there, well,
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: that represents people who are there to support a cause
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: that you're there to support. So that's kind of its
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: own reward. When you see that there is a politician
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: might come out and actually address a crowd or speak
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: to it on the news, then that's another kind of
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: little reward that can be even if they aren't necessarily
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: saying something that you want, you're getting a reaction and
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: getting attention for the activity that you're engaging in is
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: part of what you're trying to do. And so there
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: are lots of little things that I think are supporting
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: those motions and the fact that we can extrapolate out
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: beyond our current moment in time toward the larger goal
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: and see the progress that's happening toward that, even though
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: it's not the immediate payoff that we want.
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I think that's kind of the point that
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: I would make about the idea of grit, like, you know,
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: behavior occurring in really averse conditions, like these things that
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: we do occurring in these situations that we're not seeing
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: a lot of change, or we're seeing these small changes
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: that it's just enough, but it's still very difficult to
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: get through. And so you know, you have the situation
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: where I'm going to keep engaging, I'm going to keep responding,
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: I'm going to keep doing these things because it will
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: eventually pay off, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but someday,
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: you know. And now you have this, like this whole
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: situation where you can really get into the idea of
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: grit and human behavior.
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: Cool, all right. Most of the research on protests comes
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: from social psychology. So take with that what you will.
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: I guess the folks, this is on social impact in
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: social psychology and the relationship between repression and oppression of
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: protest behavior. So I think you could sort of retranslate
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: this as thinking about it in terms of research on
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: punishment and punishment induced aggression. So looking at what happens
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: when the reaction to these aversive contexts is you tend
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: to see fighting back, and that's something that's been modeled
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: in animal research where if you were to shock an
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: animal as a form of punishment, not only will they
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: stop engaging in that behavior, but they might also attack
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: another you or another nearby animal. And not even just
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: using those punishments, but also withholding reinforcers, rewards or outcomes
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: can result in that similar aggression. So something I think
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: useful to consider when looking at what's going on in
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: these behaviors in these situations.
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: I think that's probably my biggest takeaway from looking at
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: all this is that you have to understand that there
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: is a context in which this is occurring.
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: I hear this a lot where people will say and
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: that goes back to the argument again on the right
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: way or wrong way to protest, and this is probably
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: my main take home point is that there's not a
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: right way or wrong way to protest. It's important to
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: take a second to understand the context in which the
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: protest is occurring and all of the things that led
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: up to the protest being necessary. So in this situation
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: that we're in right now, there was a peaceful call
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: for the arrests of the officers, there was a peaceful
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: call for justice, there was all of that. There has
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: been that for decades and it's not happening. So you know,
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: you have this football player who needles during the national
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: anthem and he's told that's not the right way to
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: do it, and so then it elevates, it escalates, and
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: it accelerates to a point where now it's louder, now,
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: it's more people. Now it's a real movement, and people
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: are still saying it's the wrong way to do it.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: So you have the situation where no matter what this
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: group of people was doing, it was wrong. So what's
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: the right way? Because they've done it the right way
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: and they didn't contact reinforcement, they didn't contact the reward.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: They were doing it the right way before, they were
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: doing it peacefully before they were doing it, not as
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: loudly before, and it wasn't working, So what's the right way?
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: And I think that's a very difficult conversation to unpack.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: And I think that we kind of promised not to
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: unpack that too much right now, given that this was
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: more of a how to do type of situation. But
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: I think it's important when you start looking at protests
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: to start kind of taking that perspective and looking at
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: like what was done before to get to where we
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: got now.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: Yes, and my main take home, which I think we
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: didn't state this explicitly, but an overarching summary of the
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: topics that we discussed and thinking about why would people
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: protest to begin with? And this is a very large,
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: complex cultural thing, and this has to do with a
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: lot of values and symbolic action that are wrapped up
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: in some pretty sort of I guess complex emotions and
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: thoughts and contexts, because this isn't one thing. This is
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: a complex mishmash of a lot of situation all coming
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: together in just the right way where you can look
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: at the motivations. And there are a lot of motivations
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: for people to participate in those protests. They might protest
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: or they might engage because of a sense of solidarity.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: They might protest because they were asked to. They might
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: show up because they were paid to. Can happen, doesn't happen,
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: you know, probably that much, But it can happen. You
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: can show up to a protest because you have a
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: personal stake in that, or you know somebody who does.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: You might just protest because you're bored and you have,
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: you know, less to do. Yeah, the motivations can be
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: very tremendously, and the what you were doing when you
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: protest is so language based, in symbolic and culturally specific
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: to the situation and what you're in that when just
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: breaking it down in that way, you acknowledge that like
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: a protest is really nothing more than changing your behavior
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: in a way that's going to stand out uniquely and
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: either get attention or alter what somebody is even capable
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: of doing in a certain way. So, for example, if
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: a protest takes over several city blocks, then normal traffic
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: and business can't happen in those city blocks, so that
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: can be an effect, But a protest can be something
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: that's also just things happening online and all that's meant
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: to happen there is get a lot of attention toward
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: that thing, because a lot of attention and participation from
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: different people from various backgrounds can mean that actual change
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: does happen. And so there's a lot of complex things
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: that are happening in looking at this just at the
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: level of what's the process. So I think that's one
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: of my maint com points is to think about, like
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: how do we conceptualize this and why does it happen?
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: And as we mentioned, this is largely on how to protest.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: So in terms of this, be safe and be safe
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: means be prepared for a lot of different situations, know
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: your rights, and protect yourself physically and mentally.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: And that's exactly what my main my primary was going
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: to end up.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: Sorry, is like just be ta get away.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: No, No, you're good. I know. I'm glad that we
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: both agree, Like yeah, to me, that's the thing. It's
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: like when we come together, big things happen. So just
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: be safe. If you're going to protest, be safe, please.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: And also we support protests, yeah, we support speaking plus
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: use your voice again thinking about like protesting worthy causes,
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: But that's kind of the eye of the holder. So
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: I get that there certainly is not a blanket way
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: of deciding what worthy means in that case. But yeah,
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: that's why I sort of I rested it in the
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: caveat earlier of whether this is for the better betterment
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: of others and the well being of others, or this
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: is selfish and maybe for the well being of a
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: very small number, or just against people that you don't
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: like for some reason.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: Right, right, right, Yeah, it's a whole thing, so complex
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: but also doable. So just be safe.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: That's what you need to know to protest and how
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: to do so safely. All right. So that was our
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: discussion from November twenty twenty on how to protest safely.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: So thank you all for listening. I hope that you
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: enjoyed that. Where are we now?
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: So a question that comes up because we did share
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: a lot of like how to be safe during protest
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: and how to make sure you're taken care of and
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: a lot of it, and we're going to talk about
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: this too, is like, you know, there are lots of
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: people who have the privilege to protest and some people
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: who are definitely putting their lives at risk, which, unfortunately
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: the time of this episode, another person was just murdered
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: by ICE in their protest behaviors. So yeah, let's talk
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: about the safety protocols as we go. So have they
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: been updated? Well, we'll give you a couple new pointers
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: to talk about. Things have escalated in the face of
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: the clear murder of Renee Good that specifically occurred in Minneapolis.
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: Given the current status that ICE appears to be a
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: primary target of the protests, we want to share a
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: couple tips, one of them being if you are stopped
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: by a quote unquote officer, ask if they are from
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: and I say officer. This is like any sort of
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: police enforcement, yeah, enforcer or law enforcement enforcer. If you will,
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: you are allowed to ask if they are from Immigration
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: and Customs Enforcement ICE or Customs and Border Protection CBP,
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: and this will actually help you dictate next steps that
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: you can take that are legal steps.
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: Okay, very good. So things to know and know that again,
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: these are protected by law. The law is changing. It
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: is fluid dynamic. They are trying to remove any barriers
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: to the authority and abuse of power that they've been
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: giving to ICE officials. So it's possible that things will change,
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: but this is where we stand right now. If an
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: officer knocks on your door, Do not open it. Teach
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: your kids not to open it. Request a judicial warrant
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: signed by a judge. Administrative warrants do not grant them
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: the right to enter your home. It must be a
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: judicial warrant, and until they produce a judicial warrant, you
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: have the right to speak through your door and are
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: not required to open it. Now, does that mean that
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: they will not shoot through your door.
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: No?
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: Does it mean that they will not kick your door in. No,
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: it is just illegal for them to do so. Not
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: that that will necessarily be enforced, but technically, per the law,
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: they must have a judicial warrant.
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. You are allowed to talk to these folks
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: through cameras like ring cameras, door cameras. You are allowed
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: to talk through a door. You are allowed to talk
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: through that. But the minute you open the door, you
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: open the risk of them entering your home. So just
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: be mindful of that. Teach everybody not to open a
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: door in the face of an officer or some enforcer
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: unless they have a judicial warrant signed by a judge.
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: They could have a judicial warrant and it printed, but
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: if it's not signed by a judge, they cannot enter
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: your home legally at Yeah. Yeah, if you are currently
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: undocumented or your immigration status is in process, it is
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: recommended to avoid protests in line with your own safety
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: above all a lots and I'm not and this is
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: one of those things that comes with privilege, right, Yeah.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: If your immigration status in the United States right now
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: is a certain level of privilege. If you are US citizen,
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: that does not necessarily protect you from the harms that
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: these organizations are doing.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, look at who they've killed so far.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. The two people that happen like
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 2: this year so far have both been US citizens. But
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: to be clear, there is an additional risk. And I'm
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: not saying don't go to the protest, but what I
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 2: am saying is just it's important to know there is
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: an additional risk if your immigration status is undocumented or
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: in process, that can put you at an additional risk
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: of arrest, harms in different processes there. So please just
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: note that at the very least, and then make a
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: decision based on your own risk and safety and your
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: own values.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense. It's
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: great if you can protest, and it is if you
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: are concerned about your safety. Don't and we very much
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: all of us who are out there protesting do understand. Yes,
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: so it is very understandable to make sure you are
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 1: protecting yourself and your loved ones. But you know, if
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: you can go out there and are willing to participate,
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: that's good, Okay. Another important thing here is to make
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: sure that if you are going to a protest, informed
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: loved ones and people you trust and care about where
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: you're going, make sure you have a plan for where
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: you will meet when the event is over or if
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: there is safety as a concern, and then have like
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: plans for times like when are you going to be there,
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: when are you going to be back, where will you
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: be meeting at different places. It's important to just have
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: those things outlined and communicated so that should you go missing,
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: people are immediately on the lookout for you and not
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: wondering what could have possibly happened, Like it's we will
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: meet at this place at this time, and therefore if
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: you don't show up, we know already that something has
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: gone wrong. Yeah.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Another tip is to memorize your lawyer's phone number
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: boo and and also too, this is something that I
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: saw more recently, if you are delivering goods to a place,
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: like if you are in a city where there's a
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: large ice presence and you're delivering groceries, pay attention to
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 2: who's like if ice is following you or anything like that,
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: and don't use your GPS. And here's why we say
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: that there's a couple things here. The less you can
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: put into a digital app or tracker or anything like that,
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: the less likely they can track other people that you
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: are helping. And so it's just kind of one of
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: those things. What they recommend is if you have a
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: hard time with memory or anything like that, if you
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: can't memorize your lawyer's number one thing you do is
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: have a piece of paper where or like an address
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: you're going to, you can have a piece of paper
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: where it's written, and if you are detained, you can
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: actually like eat and swallow the paper so that they
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: can't access it. So you can destroy that bit of
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: information so that they cannot use that. If it's in
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 2: your app, they can actually track your data and stuff
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: like that. That's a different that's a different conversation, but
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: that's one thing to say. Memorize addresses of places you
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: need to go memorize your lawyer's phone number, memorize that
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 2: bit of information where you can access that, but if
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: you are detained, they cannot.
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 1: Just as a side note, how unbelievably depressing and sad
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 1: that it is that we are in a country now
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: where we have to have these conversations where, yeah, we're
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: trying to help protect citizens from the abuse of power
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 1: by the government. Yeah, and like for something as simple
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: as like having darker colored skin and maybe looking like
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: you could be from another country.
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 2: Having an accent, yeah, exactly. Let me be clear, having
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: an accent that's different than the person that's in charge.
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: Everybody's got an accent, but having an accent that is
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: different than the person in power.
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I mean I think, all right, there's more
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: to say, but it's just just an observation I was making,
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: like we could even get in trouble for diseventy in
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: this information, which is like these are people who are
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: peacefully protesting. I mean, the rhetoric around this is just unbelievable.
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: It's unbelievable that they're like saying these are like paid
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: actors who are like it's two.
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 2: Plus two equals five. That's what they're trying to tell you.
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean, and the disingenuousness of this, like
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: it's just it's wild that this is the place that
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: we find ourselves, so we could get in trouble and
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: we're gonna do this anyway. That's what has happening. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: other things. If you are stopped by law enforcement, ask
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: a simple am I free to go? That is a question,
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: Am I free to go? If the answer is yes,
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: leave immediately. If the answer is no, Do not volunteer
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: any information or initiate any conversations. Remember, you do have
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: the right to remain silent. That is technically a right
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: that you have. Again, cannot guarantee that they will not
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: be brutal toward people, but you could potentially hurt your
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: cause more by engaging with them. Yeah, and if not
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: hurt your cause, hurt the cause of other people. Yeah,
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: because they will try and get information out of you.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: And these are these are not safe individuals.
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: No, not at all. Also too, if you're going to
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: a protest, pay attention to bad actors. And what we
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 2: mean are our people who are agitators provocateurs. These are
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: folks that show up as quote unquote protesters that may
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: arrive and try to incite violence, and essentially what happens
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: is they'll show up, they'll incite violence, and that will
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 2: undercut the idea of a peaceful or non violent protest. Yeah, peaceful,
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: non violent protest movements are not aided by unprovoked violence. Now,
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: I want to be clear about this too. I think
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: a lot of people come from the space where we
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 2: like they have the privilege to say that violence is
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: not the answer in the event of resisting tyrannical regimes
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 2: and stuff like this. It's also important to understand that
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: violent protest has worked and will work again in some circumstances,
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 2: some instances. We are not part of the two of us,
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 2: are not part of marginalized groups, and not of the
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 2: mind to tell people how to protest. However, we do
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: encourage peaceful or at least non violent. You can have
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: non violent, disruptive protests. But we also understand that there
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 2: are spaces where there is violence is happening too groups
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: of people, so violent protests may be necessary in some circumstances.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 2: We just want to be clear and like kind of
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: lay that out. We're we're not protests policing at this moment,
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 2: but you really want to pay attention to these these protesters.
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 2: These these folks that are that are not protesters. You
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: can usually tell because they show up, they're an unknown
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 2: quantity to the rest of the protesting group that's been there.
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 2: They're usually there's some indicators that they are maybe undercover.
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 2: You can see people who show up as protesters wearing
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 2: bulletproof vests under their shirts or their jackets. You can
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 2: see that they are carrying weapons. You can see that
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 2: they are being a little bit shifty. You can see
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: they're kind of a loner. They're not really talking to anybody.
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 2: You can tell who's there as like an undercover provocateur
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 2: rather than somebody who is there for the right reasons
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 2: for that protest.
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: This is depicted really well in the more recent movie
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 1: by Paul Thomas Anderson with Leonardo DiCaprio and Sean Penn
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: called One Battle after Another. Yeah, there is a specific
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: scene where you see the military specifically send in someone
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: who's dressed like a protester, who looks like they basically
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 1: join the protest movement, and they're there too insight violence
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: to give the police reason to attack the protesters and
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 1: start shooting. Yes, yes, it's just like, like that is
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: that is how they'll do it, and then they'll go
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: on Fox and say, look at how violent these protesters are. Yes,
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 1: you are the you inside the violence.
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there were specific examples, especially during the George Floyd
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: protests and stuff like that, where all of a sudden,
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: out of nowhere, in non construction places, you'd see palettes
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 2: of bricks show up, which are just we're just essentially
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: used to be like, hey, but there were suggestions for
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: like protesters to use as projectiles and so like, it's
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 2: really important to pay attention to these folks because they
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: will undermine your protest movements. So identify them, root them out,
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: scare them off, confront them, and get them out of
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 2: your space so that they do not put your safety
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: in jeopardy.
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is unfortunate, but that is that is the
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: way that they do things. So, yeah, the unfortunate way
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: we do things is to play ads.
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 2: We have to play an ad y.
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 1: All right, let's talk about a little science here. We're back.
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 1: We've been talking about some of the things to know
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: about what your rights are if you encounter people. There's
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 1: something called the three point five percent rule, and that
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 1: posits that for peaceful protests to work. By work we
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 1: mean this is specifically with respect to overthrowing like in
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 1: authoritarian regimes. Is when you have three point five percent
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 1: of a given population who engage in a peaceful or
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 1: nonviolent protest, that these are successfully able to actually make
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 1: a change in the government only three point five percent.
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: This rule is positive by Eric at Chennaw, a political
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 1: scientist at Harvard.
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Chennow with actually reviewed hundreds of campaigns across decades
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 2: and found that protests were more likely to be effective
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: if around three point five percent of any given population
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: actively participated in protest measures. This is not people sharing
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 2: stuff on social media, and these are people that are
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 2: actively protesting and doing actionable things. We could probably do
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 2: a deeper dive on this in the coming weeks, but
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 2: I think we stand by the message stand up and
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 2: speak out because it can make a difference.
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and just for a little bit of context here,
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: three point five percent in the United States is about
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 1: eleven and a half to twelve million people. At the
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: No King's rally there were seven millions, so it was
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: it is moving toward that number. So when protests happened,
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: and I know it feels like for a lot of us.
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of them, and it's it's not always
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: easy to make time and space for all of those.
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: But the more we can get out there, the closer
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: we can get to that number and actually start to
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: enact difference. Yeah. Again, it's not actually a magical threshold.
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 1: It's just that when observing the history of this, the
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 1: observation has been that that is an important number. So
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: if we can get there, and I think that we can,
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 1: then we can actually get some of the change that
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 1: many of us are longing for. Yeah, okay, so has
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 1: protesting been effective in the last five years since this episode?
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 1: Let's look at some examples.
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah. What I tried to do for this was I
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 2: tried to look at some examples of like successful protest
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 2: movements in non violent, non violent protests movement specifically across
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 2: the world, and there are thankfully lots of examples. So
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 2: if you are feeling hopeless, and if you are feeling
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 2: scared and you are not sure that protests work, or
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 2: you don't feel like things are moving in the right
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 2: direction rapidly, I'm going to give you some hope. One
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 2: the Black Lives Matter movement had a larger global impact
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 2: than we saw in the US. I think, I think
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of like language and kind of like,
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 2: you know, people talking out of both sides of their
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 2: mouth about black lives matter and stuff like that. Here's
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 2: what we actually saw. Belgium in the UK actually set
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 2: up specific task forces to start evaluating colonial legacies, to
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 2: figure out like what the impact of colonialism was and
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 2: stuff like this. These are major countries that are doing this.
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 2: In the US, police reform actually became a formal discussion
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 2: in many US cities, something that wasn't really happening before.
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 2: We weren't really having these discussions about the need for this.
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, there were episodes of police violence and all that,
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 2: but now it was so such a huge talking point
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 2: that US cities were actually starting to have conversations and
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 2: starting to allocate budgets to other resources that were more
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 2: impactful and more supportive of communities. So like, there is
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 2: an impact here, even if we're not seeing it overtly.
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, and it's important to so sometimes it doesn't
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: necessarily feel like it's having the impact, but it will
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 1: in the long run, and it's worth it to engage
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 1: in the moment, even if it's not as salient. How
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 1: effective that's going to be. Protests in twenty nineteen in
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 1: Chile radicalized huge swaths of youth, progressive feminist voters that
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: ultimately demanded a new constitution. This was aimed at replacing
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 1: the previous constitution that had been written under dictatorship rule,
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 1: and these protests actually resulted in a landslide victory and
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 1: increased progressive elected officials towards said goal. So, as of
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 1: the writing of this two new drafts of the constitution
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 1: have been proposed. Both have been rejected, one more liberal
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 1: and the other more conservative. But they are at a
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: point where they are helping to write their future. Yeah,
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 1: and good on them for being able to be in
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 1: that position.
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's a huge thing. Now. In Argentina, we
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 2: saw major protests and activism that pushed legislation toward legalized abortion,
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 2: and this was successful and seen as a model for
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 2: other South American countries to begin having movements towards legalized abortion.
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 2: So Argentina went and got abortion legalized, and now you're
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 2: starting to see other protest movements crop up in South
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 2: America as a result of this.
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: In India, the government moved to make major changes to
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 1: farm laws that would have drastically impacted small farm practices,
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: and there was a strike of two hundred and fifty
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 1: million people. That is a lot of people, Holy cow,
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 1: And that resulted in the government moving toward concessions and
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 1: revisions to those laws. So yeah, protesting can really work.
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Another example, the Guatemalan government made attempts to cut
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 2: public funding for education and health services, which resulted in
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 2: huge public outrages and protesters actually came out and droves,
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 2: and as a result, the government completely reversed those changes.
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 2: So they put out this budget and they said, hey,
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 2: we're going to make these cuts, and everybody went, you are,
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 2: and then they basically retracted every They redid the budget
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 2: and removed all of those cuts.
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: Interesting. Namibia had a movement called shut It All Down,
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: which was sparked after Shannon Darliki Wasserfall was murdered. Protesters
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: came together to make changes to help stop violence against women,
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 1: and that led to new legislation and government reforms to
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: again move in a more progressive direction.
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. They started putting in new protections in place,
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 2: better investigation processes, lots of different things in place. And
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 2: then Maybia to help protect women from ongoing violence, which
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 2: I thought was great. There are plenty of other examples.
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 2: So in Italy, the Sardines movement actually swayed the election tied.
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 2: Japan actively opposed the coal industry, and one Maloi forced
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 2: specifically an elections rerun following election irregularities. They found that
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 2: there were some things that were not quite right with
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 2: the elections, so they actually did a new election as
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 2: a result. And Peru actively opposed a political coup aimed
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: at maintaining elite political corruptions. So folks tried to do
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 2: they tried to engage in a coup, and everybody in
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 2: Peru was like absolutely nut and got rid of those
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 2: folks that we're trying to do that, that we're not
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 2: going to be beneficial to the people. So basically what
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 2: we're saying is time and time again, and this is
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 2: all happening in the last five years. Wow, all of
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 2: this stuff happened and resulted in huge changes that put
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 2: power back in people's hands and showed that people ultimately
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 2: have the power because there are more of us than them,
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 2: and that is so important to remember. They don't all work,
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 2: they don't always work right away, but most of them
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 2: do when enough of us get together and we stand
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 2: up and we say this is not okay. Enough is enough,
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 2: and here are real tangible examples that we can see
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 2: these changes happening.
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the pro fascist and fascist allies and sympathizers like
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 1: they are outnumbered by a gigantic margin. Most of us
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 1: do not want this.
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 2: And they're cowards. They're cowards the minute they're confronted. They
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 2: are cowards, which is why you're seeing people be murdered
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 2: in the street, because they are afraid of what the
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 2: people can do.
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 1: So put, simply, protesting does work, and it can work
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 1: very well. But it only works if we do it together,
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 1: if we do it loudly, if we do it peacefully. Ideally,
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 1: although again, as you said, things work different ways in
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: different places. It's important to understand that like what we
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 1: do in those protests might not change the outcome today,
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: but persistence, organization and hope will only fuel the actual
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 1: changes we're trying to see. And again it's worth thinking
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 1: about that. Some of the politicians in the government who
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 1: helped the guard rails hold last time said the only
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 1: reason they were able to do that is because of
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 1: how loudly people were vocalizing their concerns about how things
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 1: were going. It was the protests, It was the town
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 1: hall meetings, it was the letter writing campaigns, it was
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: the phone calls, like engage your politicians. They are meant
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 1: to be our representatives, not our gods. Like they are
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 1: supposed to be of us and be a voice for
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 1: the people among the powers that be, So like, call
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 1: your representatives and tell them to get their together and
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 1: stop this insanity that we're living with. And that is
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 1: another important thing that can happen. But us going to
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 1: protests does help fuel the willingness of politicians to stand
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 1: up to one another to work for us, and we
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: are their employers, so that is what they should be doing.
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. One thing I want to kind of end on
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 2: a little bit is that one of the most important
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 2: commentaries it's coming out of Minneapolis right now at the
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 2: time of this recording, is that ICE is nervous. When
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 2: I say nervous, I mean that they are seeing that
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 2: what they're doing is not working in the way that
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 2: they thought it would. The fear factor that they are
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 2: trying to implant in people is not working the way
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 2: they thought it was. And partly because protesters are very
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 2: well organized there that what they're doing is they're working together,
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 2: they're communicating, and ICE has never seen anything like this
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 2: because they are completely disorganized and they are a paramilitary
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 2: bunch of folks that don't know what they're doing. So
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 2: leverage that, use that, push forward, do it safely, do
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 2: it effectively, but make sure that you're organized. Use this
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 2: as an example that far right racist scumbag cowards are
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 2: afraid of organized, powerful movements. That is such an important
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 2: message in all of this. They are afraid of the people,
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 2: which is why they're reacting violently, which makes them dangerous.
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 2: But they are afraid of us, and they are afraid
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 2: of how organized we are, and they are afraid of
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 2: how effective we are.
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 1: Keep it up, beautiful.
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 1: Hopefully you got something out of that discussion. We're excited
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 1: to be able to share this again with everybody now.
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 1: Hopefully this helps some people stay safe and helps people
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 1: feel confident to go out into those spaces and share
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 1: their voice. And everybody counts, even like they're not necessarily
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 1: counting every single head, but like the more heads there are,
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 1: the more they take notice. So be part of that
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 1: movement if you would like to, if you're safe to
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 1: do so because that's going to help move us all forward.
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 1: So yep, I'm good leaving it sort of there in
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 1: this discussion, but I'm eager to hear from people if
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 1: they want to share other recommendations for how to be safe.
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 1: You can reach us directly by emailing us at info
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 1: at WWDWWD podcast dot com, or else on the social
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 1: media platforms. We look forward to hearing from you when
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 1: and if you're available to do so. If not, that's okay.
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 1: You can support us other ways. You can like subscribe
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 1: join us on Patreon. If you do, you'll get early
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 1: content ad free content. I will read your name and
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 1: the list of people who have supported us over on
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 1: Patreon because we're just eternally grateful to their generosity and
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 1: their willingness to help us, like be a podcast, so
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 1: that's its own little movements that you can also join.
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 1: It won't necessarily help the government, but you can it, yeah,
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 1: if you would like, so, a big thank you too,
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 1: Mike m Megan, Mike T, Justin, Kim Brad, Stephanie, Brian, Ashley,
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 1: Kiara and Charlie. And thank you to Naomi who has
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: been supporting us on our distribution platform called speaker, which
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 1: you can also listen to episodes there. So thank you
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 1: to everyone there, and then if you would like to
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 1: join that list of people, I will read your name
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 1: as well. And again, we just appreciate whatever you can
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 1: do to help us do what we do. And thank
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 1: you so much to all of you.
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 2: Yes, we love you, all right.
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 1: I could not do this without my team, but people,
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 1: thank you for putting these notes together, Shane, and for
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 1: recording with me today.
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 2: Hey, thanks for having me.
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 1: Our social media coordinator is Emma Wilson. And our audio
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 1: engineer who has to take these old episodes and stitch
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 1: them together with new episodes and make them still sound
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 1: like episodes is Justin, who is very good at what
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 1: he does.
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, sorry for all the beeps, Justin.
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 1: We didn't have a handful of edits and something so short,
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 1: but that is where we find ourselves, all right. I
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 1: think that's what I have to say. Before we get
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 1: to some recommendations.
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 2: Let's do it.
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 1: Recommendations, all right, if you're joining us for the first time,
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 1: we like to recommend things. Sometimes they're related to the
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 1: topic at hand, sometimes not. Mine will not be. This
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 1: is just a place for us to share things that
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 1: maybe inspired us or brought us joy that we would
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 1: like to communicate to others and check it out or not,
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 1: as you see fit. So I am going to go
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 1: first because I feel like yours is more timely and relevant. Sure,
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 1: and we'll like to end on that note. So this
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 1: is a product Reesees. The company, it's a Hirshey. They're
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 1: owned by Hershe's, but they are a company that makes
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 1: these peanut butter snacks that are coated in chocolate goodness,
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 1: and they are specifically known for their peanut butter cups,
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 1: the Rass peanut butter cups, and they have started releasing
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 1: plant based products. And it has been sometime since I
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 1: have been able to enjoy a Reese's product, and these
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 1: plant based products are very very good. Honestly, I would
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 1: be impressed if you tried them and could actually tell
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 1: the difference because they are just very well done. This
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 1: is a company who clearly knows how to use their
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 1: recipes to make their products and they are delicious. So
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 1: if you are enjoyed chocolate, if you enjoy peanut butter,
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 1: Reesa's plant based peanut butter cups are absolutely fantastic.
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I fully support plant based anything, So by all means,
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 2: try these out. They're good.
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 1: All right, that's the cent for me, all right.
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 2: I love that. Last night I got to go to
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 2: a basketball game. So I got to go to see
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 2: the Orlando Magic play the Cleveland Cavaliers, and I one
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 2: forgot how much I like basketball and watching basketball, But two,
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 2: I was just so impressed with the entire the entire
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 2: shebang well from the time like when we walked into
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 2: the arena all the way until the last buzzer of
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 2: the game. There was something going on. There was something
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 2: to do, there was food opportunities, like, there was some
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 2: really cool things happening. And so I recommend if you,
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 2: whether it's a large one or a small one, go
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 2: to a sporting event. Go watch your local baseball team play,
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 2: Go watch a basketball game, Go and go to a
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 2: major league game if you like to. There's kind of
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 2: a cool thing right now where like if you you know,
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 2: if it's a mid season game or whatever, like, you
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 2: can go and get some tickets pretty cheap. And the
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 2: seats are not bad for the most part at these
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 2: places because the arenas are not huge. We were able
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 2: to see where we were sitting last night. We were
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 2: on the second level and we were able to see
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 2: my buddy Troy and I. We were able to see
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 2: the entire game, watch the entire game, see every moment,
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 2: see every movement, see everything. And we had like what
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 2: you could describe as nose bleed seats, and they were
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 2: still good seats. I just recommend going to a live
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 2: sporting event, whatever that is, whatever organization you like to support,
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 2: whatever team you like to support, whatever that looks like,
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 2: go to it. Soccer, hockey, football, basketball, baseball, whatever, Go
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 2: and enjoy it because it is There's something about being
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 2: in a crowd of people who have a similar goal,
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 2: who are really enjoying themselves and having a good time.
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 2: So I think it's a lot of fun.
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 1: Cool.
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 2: I have two bonus recommendations, Okay. One bonus recommendation is
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 2: donate money to immigration defense organizations that support legal fees,
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 2: legislative action, and direct support for families. There are a
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 2: couple that we are going to just share right here
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 2: real quick. There's the Immigrant Defense Project. You can donate
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 2: money directly. They help families with legal fees and help
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 2: with like lobbying for legislation to protect immigrants. And then
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 2: there's also we are KASA dot org. They are a
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 2: little bit more left leaning and are have some movements
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 2: towards like legislation abolishing ice and directly supporting families. So
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 2: those two organizations are really good places to start if
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 2: you have feedback on those, by all means, let us
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 2: know and we can update that. And my second recommendation
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 2: is abolish Ice. Do whatever you can do. Abolish Ice.
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 2: We need to get rid of that organization. It's clearly
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 2: not working. It's actually doing more harm than good. It's
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 2: making every community that they're in unsafe.
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 1: Indeed, abolish Ice. Yep, all right, well let's end it there.
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening, and uh, I think
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 1: we're good to wrap this one up.
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 2: That feels good.
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 1: All right, then this is Abraham.
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 2: It's a shamee we're out. So yeah, you've been listening
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 2: to Why We Do What We Do. You can learn
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 2: more about this and other episodes by going to WWD
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 2: WWD podcast dot com. Thanks for listening, and we hope
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 2: you have an awesome day.