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113: Return to Ridgeway, SC · Common Mystics

• 0:10
  Speaker A: On this episode of Common Mystics, we had the pleasure of talking with the granddaughter of a spirit who came through to us in one of our favorite episodes. I'm Jennifer James.
• 0:24
  Speaker B: I'm Jill Stanley.
• 0:26
  Speaker A: We're psychics. We're sisters. We are common mystics. We find extraordinary stories in ordinary places. And today we revisit Ridgeway, South Carolina.
• 0:38
  Speaker B: Jennifer.
• 0:40
  Speaker A: Yes, Jill.
• 0:41
  Speaker B: What a day this has been. We just got off the phone with the descendants, and I'm going to say descendants, even though they're not related, Teresa really feels like Mickey's sister of Ruby McPherson. Let's recap our story on Ridgeway for our audience.
• 1:02
  Speaker A: Quick recap here. It all begins with a man named David Ruff. Okay, Jill. David Ruff was one of the founders of the town of Ridgeway. He didn't have any children, but his sister Nancy Ruff did. And she also became an instrumental figure in this whole unfolding saga that we unearthed in Ridgeway.
• 1:31
  Speaker B: That's right. Nancy, after leaving her brother's Daniel's family farm in Blythewood, decided to move closer to her brother David's family, or David in Ridgeway, and making the journey that somehow mirrored our journey.
• 1:49
  Speaker A: Yes. From Blythewood to Ridgeway. Absolutely. Nancy married a man, Dr. Isaac Lawton, and together they created a lineage that would spread to Michigan, Alabama, and Arkansas. Little did they know that their family tree was exposed, expanding, and there was evil growing in it.
• 2:14
  Speaker B: Nancy's spirit and legacy led us on a path that transcended time itself, leading us to Texas in the 1950s. Uncovering the voices of the past. Long silence by her own descendant Ellis Lahen's actions.
• 2:34
  Speaker A: This tale serves as a point, poignant reminder that our actions, Jill, ripple through time, affecting both the future as well as past generations.
• 2:48
  Speaker B: This story really was the moment in time that I realized that I always thought, like, my behavior was affecting future and present, not the past. So that's crazy.
• 3:01
  Speaker A: Ridgeway really did change us. It really opened our minds to how spirit communicates with us. The fact that time is not linear and the fact that, like you just said, our actions today also affect our ancestors behind us as well as the generations in front of us.
• 3:21
  Speaker B: So, Jennifer.
• 3:22
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 3:23
  Speaker B: I want to give everyone a trigger warning. This revisit, this story is horrifying. And I still get enraged and tearful hearing. I know, I know. But can you please take us through the incident and what happened?
• 3:43
  Speaker A: Sure. We're just going to summarize what happened back in 1955, but you can also, listeners, go back and listen to the full episode of Ridgeway, South Carolina.
• 3:56
  Speaker B: Good. I like it. Summarize, Summit. Sum it up.
• 4:01
  Speaker A: On the early morning of June 22, 1955, a woman named Zola Norman, a grandmother in her 60s, was laying peacefully in bed beside her 12 year old grandson, George. See, it was unusual that they were sharing a bed, but that day they were making room for an unexpected guest. His name was Ellis Lawn, a stranger who had taken up residence in George's room that night. Now, Zola lived with her daughter, Ruby Liu and her family. Now, Ruby's husband John was not home. He was an engineer for a Houston oil company and was away on an oil rig in Sulphur, Louisiana, along with her elder son, John Jr. Who was affectionately known as Jack. Now, earlier that day, Ruby had actually driven to Sulphur, Louisiana for a visit with her husband and eldest son, Jack. But on the way home, near Beaumont, Texas, she made a spontaneous decision to pick up a hitchhiker, Ellis, a young airman who had gone AWOL from a Georgia base. Ruby was always eager to assist a serviceman, especially since her own son Jack was in the military. Ruby welcomed him into her car and before heading home, she stopped at a local cafe and she bought him something to eat. Ruby then returned home with this hitchhiker.
• 5:46
  Speaker B: I mean, she could have, just like she already did, a salad, she got.
• 5:51
  Speaker A: Him food, she picked him up, she bought him a meal. But no, she wasn't done.
• 5:56
  Speaker B: She wasn't done because she's Ruby and she's wonderful and she's like, where are you staying tonight?
• 6:01
  Speaker A: Right? And of course, he didn't have a place to stay, so she took him home to her own house. Now, she was smart enough not to tell her mother that this was a stranger that she had picked up on the road.
• 6:18
  Speaker B: Zola knew she didn't like him.
• 6:20
  Speaker A: Right. Instead, she introduced him to her mother, Zola and her son George as a friend of Jack's. Concealing the truth, her mama would have disapproved.
• 6:31
  Speaker B: She knew it.
• 6:32
  Speaker A: So Ruby generously offered him George's room for the night, and Ellis, the young stranger, accepted. And that's why George was spending the night in his grandmother's room with her. Now, they had dinner together, and then Ruby and George settled the gentleman into his temporary quarters and spent a few hours watching TV together before retiring for the night. But in the shadows, events were about to take a sinister turn. Cue creepy music. According to notes from the Associated Press, Ellis, a stranger in this family's home, found himself restless, tossing and turning for hours Curiosity beckoned him to wander the hall where he paused between Ruby's room and the guest room, catching a glimpse of Zola's door, slightly ajar, and he pushed it open and stepped inside. Zola, startled, turned on the light and demanded, who is it? Ellis took three deliberate steps toward her locked eyes with Zola, and without a moment's hesitation, pulled the trigger.
• 7:58
  Speaker B: What a sick fucking.
• 8:00
  Speaker A: Young George, sprawled on a stomach next to his grandmother, stirred as the gunshot rang out and the murderer swiftly turned the gun onto George, shooting him as well. Then, with cruel indifference, he stepped out onto the porch, reveling in the cool night air, feeling as if he had conquered something. He rationalized his actions, convincing himself that he hadn't done anything wrong, just that he deserved some rest. But it wasn't time for that. Not yet. Ellis would later describe his chilling plan. He intended next to knock Ruby unconscious and force her to write checks to fund his escape. However, the blackjack or the leather covered club that he had in his possession swung at Ruby's head and slipped from his grasp and she began to wake. Apparently, she had not been woken up by the gunshots. And so, because he had accidentally dropped the club on her and woken her up, he shot her too, killing her instead. And then the murderer did something unthinkable. He ransacked the entire house, stealing $20 from Ruby's purse and slipping the wedding ring off of her still warm finger. He rifled through Zola's room, pocketing $3 and change, enjoyed a cold glass of milk, tidied up after himself, wiped down surfaces that he might have touched before driving away in Ruby's 1953 red and cream Ford sedan. Three days later, it was a concerned neighbor, noticing the unusual silence from the house, who decided to investigate. He knocked on the door, but there was no answer. He walked around, peering into windows until he caught sight of of what appeared to be someone sleeping in bed. Alarmed, he rushed home and called the police. Shortly after, responding officers made the gruesome discovery, a 44 year old Ruby, her 12 year old son George, and her 63 year old mother, Zola Norman, all murdered in their beds by gunshots.
• 10:40
  Speaker B: So the perpetrator was eventually apprehended and he he was arrested, charged, he pled insanity to the crime. I don't want to get into him. I really am just over this. Let's just get into the interview with our honored guest, okay?
• 11:02
  Speaker A: Mickey? The granddaughter of Ruby. The granddaughter of Ruby and the daughter of Jack, Ruby's oldest son, and her good friend Teresa let's go.
• 11:18
  Speaker B: They're more like sister.
• 11:19
  Speaker A: They're more like sisters. Let's go to them now.
• 11:22
  Speaker B: Hi.
• 11:26
  Speaker A: So nice to see you.
• 11:28
  Speaker B: It is so nice to meet you guys. Okay, so who's.
• 11:33
  Speaker C: Who?
• 11:33
  Speaker B: I think you're Mickey.
• 11:35
  Speaker D: I'm Mickey.
• 11:36
  Speaker C: She's a McPherson.
• 11:37
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 11:37
  Speaker C: She looks like a McPherson.
• 11:39
  Speaker B: She does. I can see Ruby in you so well. Oh, my goodness. Okay, so introduce yourself.
• 11:46
  Speaker A: Jill.
• 11:47
  Speaker B: I'm Jill. This is my sister Jennifer. And we. This experience in Ridgeway and researching your family's story is. Was a tremendous turning point for how I view not only psychic ability, but time and the effect we have in our lifetime on future and past generations.
• 12:12
  Speaker D: Right.
• 12:12
  Speaker B: So it was a really meaningful story for us. It's my favorite. When someone asked me about the story. This. This story is my favorite experience that we had, and I'm so sorry it had happened at all. But you're.
• 12:27
  Speaker A: It was profound for us, and we are so honored. Thank you so much for talking with us where I'm excited to dig in.
• 12:36
  Speaker B: So, Teresa, start with how you found us and our podcast.
• 12:41
  Speaker D: Okay.
• 12:41
  Speaker C: So my sister and I were going to go to Galveston recently, so we did, but I will, you know, knowing this story, knowing it was in Dickinson, I thought, well, I want to see if that house is still standing. So I. Again, you know, I had done the previous research, and I know I had a photo of the. The McPherson house, so I was looking for it, and that's how I came across your podcast. I'm like, oh, there's some new material that I haven't seen yet. How interesting. So I listened to the podcast. It was great. And I shared. Sent it to Mickey, and then I sent it to Mickey's nieces, too, so they could listen.
• 13:15
  Speaker B: Oh, thank you so much.
• 13:15
  Speaker C: Fascinated by it.
• 13:17
  Speaker B: We felt very connected to Ruby, like, literally, I still feel her and is impacted by her. She's just such a sweet, sweet soul. So, yes.
• 13:31
  Speaker D: That's wonderful to hear.
• 13:32
  Speaker B: So, yeah. And I. And I feel what's also wonderful to hear for us is to know that the murderer's family is. Is the previous generations are still coming through and being like, shame on you. And they really brought the story to us. Be like, this is not how he was raised. These are not the people that he. He came from, and they're broken hearted for what had happened.
• 13:58
  Speaker D: Right.
• 13:58
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 13:59
  Speaker D: Wow. But, you know, maybe he just wasn't, like, okay, you know, like, yeah, yeah, yes, for sure. Everything he was. Went through, you know, maybe he just. I mean, he wasn't okay. But you know.
• 14:12
  Speaker A: Right.
• 14:13
  Speaker D: That doesn't make it right, but.
• 14:14
  Speaker B: No, no, it doesn't, but did you. Let's just get into the questions.
• 14:19
  Speaker D: Let's see.
• 14:20
  Speaker B: So, Mickey, you are the granddaughter to Ruby.
• 14:24
  Speaker D: Yes.
• 14:24
  Speaker B: From her older son Jack.
• 14:28
  Speaker D: Yes.
• 14:29
  Speaker B: And Jack and his father at the time of the murders were away working.
• 14:34
  Speaker D: Yes. Correct.
• 14:35
  Speaker B: Okay. And when you listened to the podcast, did you. Was there anything that you discovered from it that was new to the.
• 14:47
  Speaker D: Not so much. Maybe just little details of. Like, my mom had told me that it was my dad and grandpa that found them. But then through Teresa's research and the podcast, it wasn't them that found them, but neighbors that found them. Doing a welfare check on them.
• 15:04
  Speaker B: That. That's a better case scenario. My goodness.
• 15:07
  Speaker D: Oh, gosh, yes.
• 15:08
  Speaker B: Just knowing that would have been a.
• 15:10
  Speaker D: Relief, traumatizing to the. You know, to my dad and grandpa.
• 15:15
  Speaker B: Yeah. Okay, so my next question is, how was this incident because a large chunk of your family had gone, has been missing since. And how was that moving forward for your father and your grandfather?
• 15:31
  Speaker D: I didn't really know my grandfather.
• 15:34
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 15:34
  Speaker D: So. Yeah. Because he passed in 59 and I was born in 63.
• 15:39
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 15:40
  Speaker D: But I know for my father, he. I think he had a hard time making strong connections with people, but it's.
• 15:50
  Speaker C: Yeah. Because it basically. Not to jump in and speak over you, but it basically affected her whole childhood. And her dad left them when. When she was very young, but he always called her his little sparrow. And, you know, you could tell, you know, just when she said that he. He loved her and he. Her mother very much, but they got divorced. And I said to her, I said, survivor guilt. And, you know, from what I've read and heard about him, and I did hear recently on this Dickinson website, on Facebook, like friends of Dickinson, that people said, oh, yes, he was a great guy. And they. He was very well loved, you know, and he went by Jackie Mack. But I think that those murderers affected his whole life and of course, affected Mickey's life because, you know, their dad was with them till she was seven. What. You last saw him when he was 12. And then. And then, you know, sporadically talked to him over the phone.
• 16:52
  Speaker D: And I'm 61, and I haven't. I haven't hadn't seen him since he was. Since I was 12 years old. So I didn't have a relationship with my father, and I think he was. I don't want to use the word relieved, but maybe didn't want to be close to his biological children because then if anything happened he wouldn't have to go through it again.
• 17:18
  Speaker B: Honestly, Mickey, this is really emotional. Please, like, please don't feel bad.
• 17:24
  Speaker A: Yeah, don't apologize.
• 17:26
  Speaker B: We were emotional. I think it's the only episode that I found that when I was researching, I had to stop. And I had it, like, just be outraged. Like, we found the story, and I was so outraged. Just the details of just the hubris of that man and to. And to pin it, like, Ruby did something wrong.
• 17:51
  Speaker D: I know, I know.
• 17:52
  Speaker B: That just pissed me off so bad. I was so angry. I mean, just to add the insult to just a wonderful woman trying to.
• 18:03
  Speaker D: Do something good for somebody and help them out, and then again, they turn the blame on the innocent person.
• 18:09
  Speaker C: Exactly. Yes. I.
• 18:11
  Speaker B: In my opinion. First of all, I wanted to tell you two things that Ruby, in spirit, told me that you guys were like sisters, and I wasn't going to tell you that, but I can clearly see it now. Like, I get what she's saying. Just to say that.
• 18:30
  Speaker C: Cluttering fools.
• 18:32
  Speaker B: No, it happens all the time. But also, I feel like Zola, your great grandmother, who also passed in this horrific incident, I think that she was intuitive and I think, like, Jennifer and I got the impression just reading about it, that Zola, she knew, but it wasn't her house. Like, she knew. Right, right. Is not a fan.
• 18:53
  Speaker D: The mother instincts. The mother instinct. I would be like that with my daughter. I'd be like, well, I don't let her go to the gas station. She's going to be 31 years old, and she can't go to the gas station at midnight and put gas in her car. A cute little blonde with a debit card in her hand. That's not going to happen. Don't be dumb. You know.
• 19:09
  Speaker B: Right.
• 19:09
  Speaker D: Shit happens. Excuse me, but, you know, things happen. You can't be so young and trusting of people all the time. And maybe that's what I get out of everything that happened to Zola and Ruby and Georgie and my dad, my grandpa, you know?
• 19:23
  Speaker B: Yeah, go ahead.
• 19:27
  Speaker D: I've never been this emotional about this. She has told me things over the years, and I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah. Kind of cold shoulder to it. Yes, kind of. She'll tell me, yeah, whatever. I'm just going on with my life. But this right here. Yeah, this is, like, really emotional.
• 19:43
  Speaker B: It's. It. I mean, this is your family, and this is. This is like the foundation of your life. And, you know, so this is really emotional. And I think that, like, just being. Just going back and seeing and feeling the way that I felt when we were researching Jen, that. That feeling that gave me comfort is Zola's anger. Like that. Like, just knowing that when she saw him in the room and she. Like, when they was, like, a confrontation, she was like, oh, you son of. Like, you know what I mean? Like, she was waiting for it almost.
• 20:23
  Speaker C: And her anger, that's like, so you.
• 20:26
  Speaker D: Yeah.
• 20:26
  Speaker B: Mm. And that anger helped me get through the story because it just was. So I was like. I was able to be comforted by Zola's anger.
• 20:35
  Speaker D: Right, right. And she. She didn't have any control over what was happening either. You know, it's like.
• 20:43
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 20:44
  Speaker A: Also, that emotion that you're feeling, I think, in part, is that the spirit is coming through and you are recognizing it maybe for the first time. Like, yeah, you are actually having an emotional connection with one of your family members that, you know, you've never met. So. And then the other thing that I wanted to say is that I know I do. And I don't want to speak for you, Jill, but I feel a kinship with you, Mickey, because my dad abandoned, and I was 16, and that was the last time I saw him. And, Jill, you were what?
• 21:21
  Speaker B: Nine.
• 21:22
  Speaker A: Nine. So you and. And the two of us, we share that. But it just occurred to me as you were talking about your dad abandoning you because of his issues.
• 21:32
  Speaker D: Yes.
• 21:32
  Speaker A: For me, I feel like our dad abandoned us, too, because of his issues that weren't the same as your dad.
• 21:38
  Speaker D: It's not on you. You did nothing wrong.
• 21:41
  Speaker C: Right.
• 21:42
  Speaker D: Feel like, you know, how could he just leave, you know? Right. I understand why he didn't. Even as an adult, Teresa has always been like, you need to. You need to reach out. You need to, you know, check in with your dad. I'm like, well, no, I'm good. I'm fine. I've lived my best life. I don't need any confirmation from him. But then when I did reach out, then he was still at that point in his life when he was, you know, not. He was ill, and he was still like, I don't really have anything to give you, he said to me. And that was my conversation with him, even as an adult, he was like, well, you know, you know, I don't really have anything to do. And I'm like, I wasn't really looking anything. I just wanted him to know that I've had a good life, and I have a daughter, and I'm good and right. You know, and it all stems back for him, back to his childhood and back. Or he's not childhood, but young adult, what he went through. And he couldn't make a strong connection with anybody after that, ever. He loved my mom so much, but he. I mean, they got divorced and they got remarried again. They. Yeah, they got remarried with the fact they weren't going to have any more children. And then they had me and they still couldn't get through. My mom has a traumatic past history too, so both of them have their own. Yeah, they both had a lot of.
• 22:56
  Speaker C: Stuff that they came from. Yes.
• 22:58
  Speaker B: Is your dad still alive?
• 23:00
  Speaker D: He passed away in 2012.
• 23:03
  Speaker C: 2012?
• 23:03
  Speaker D: Yes. Well, right after my daughter graduated from high school.
• 23:07
  Speaker B: So I. I'm gonna cry because I'm picking up on his energy too, and I. He's making me feel like. Like he went from an ideal life. He had good parents who loved him very much. He had a younger brother that idolized him. He had like the perfect life. And then one day it just went away and it just was so shattering. And it's like part of him died too. Like, he literally, like, he, like something. Like, it's like it cut him in half. It dissected him. So.
• 23:43
  Speaker D: And so there was a half of him that. That put out anger and there was another half of him that didn't know how to show love because of it.
• 23:53
  Speaker B: So, yeah, sure.
• 23:54
  Speaker D: That he was never, you know, he was just anger in the sense that. How do I say it? Right? Like.
• 24:02
  Speaker C: Well, I think he probably, you know, like when something traumatic happens like that and you feel like you're always walking on shaky ground type of thing. And so he probably is just mad at the world, I think.
• 24:10
  Speaker D: Yeah.
• 24:11
  Speaker C: Not mad at any particular person.
• 24:12
  Speaker D: No, no, Just angry besides the murder, with what happened. And there was no control that he could have taken towards it. Yeah. You know, it wasn't anything that him or his dad could have done to prevent that from happening. And. And it's a person's nature to protect their family. And so I think because he couldn't protect his immediate family, he had a hard time protecting his married family. Yeah.
• 24:34
  Speaker C: Married.
• 24:35
  Speaker D: Yeah.
• 24:36
  Speaker B: Well, it feels to me as if that he's saying two things. It feels like he had a little bit of a drinking problem. Would that be true?
• 24:44
  Speaker D: Oh, I gotta get up. Yeah, that would be true. Yes, very much so.
• 24:51
  Speaker C: Yeah, he did. Yes, he did, definitely.
• 24:53
  Speaker D: And that anger came out of that as well. So.
• 24:56
  Speaker B: Well, and he's. He is telling me that, like there was. He felt like there is no control over any. Like he had no control over anything. And so that, like, drinking was definitely A coping mechanism. And he never, like, usually. I don't know usually, but he, like, never. That fracture was always there. It never healed. And that feeling of vulnerability, that feeling of like just the earth, like an earthquake happening, he never. He always felt like something terrible is gonna happen because something terrible already did.
• 25:39
  Speaker C: See, that's what I always felt too. And that's what I guess.
• 25:41
  Speaker D: Yeah. And his. His control mechanism kind of was the Jackie Mack, you know, the con man. He can do this and he can do that. And it was his Persona over what had happened to him as well, too, as. As far as. He can't let that get to him. So he would try to put that personality only last for so long as well, because even then, even after he left with my mom, he. He didn't. He didn't really have a very strong future relationships with. Yeah.
• 26:09
  Speaker C: Anybody.
• 26:09
  Speaker D: With anybody.
• 26:10
  Speaker C: Yes. Yeah.
• 26:10
  Speaker B: So I just want to say this, and then I'm going to go on to the questions, but the way that I'm feeling from your father is that he was a completely different person before the accident, and he wishes not.
• 26:25
  Speaker A: Accident before the. The murders.
• 26:27
  Speaker B: The murders. I know it's so hard to say. It's.
• 26:30
  Speaker D: It is.
• 26:30
  Speaker B: It is so ugly to say, but he's saying that he wishes he were that person for you. He could have been the old Jack for you.
• 26:40
  Speaker D: Yes, I know that. I do know that. Yeah. It's.
• 26:44
  Speaker B: It's like he cut it. It was literally cut him in half and changed the direct. Like his. Not only his views of himself, like, he changed. He created a character.
• 26:56
  Speaker D: Mm. To me. Yeah.
• 26:58
  Speaker B: Because he just wasn't. He wasn't himself anymore. And I'm so, so sorry.
• 27:04
  Speaker D: Yes. Yes. It's. It's not good. But, you know, we've talked about, like, the butterfly effect of what life would have been like had that not happened. Like, would my parents have still moved to Minnesota for his job?
• 27:20
  Speaker C: Yeah. We try to grab. We try to get. Grasp the positive aspects of it.
• 27:25
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 27:25
  Speaker C: And I said to her, not looking at it for myself to be selfish, but that I wonder, would Jack and her mother have come to Minnesota? Because, you know, then I would have never had my best friend. So I try to look at. And I said, you know, said to the universe. I thanked Ruby for having, you know, giving me my best friend.
• 27:45
  Speaker A: Oh, yes.
• 27:47
  Speaker D: And I love that. If Ruby and Zola were still alive, would they have stayed, you know, down in Texas with family, because that's where his family all is. So would they have stayed or. They said they moved to Minnesota for his job. But maybe. Maybe they moved to Minnesota for him to get away from Texas. Texas.
• 28:07
  Speaker B: I think it was a welcome blessing is my.
• 28:10
  Speaker D: Yes.
• 28:11
  Speaker B: In my. That's what I'm being told. One more thing about your dad that you need to know is that he loved animals and he wants you to, like, he was able to make it through life with. With like an animal to love. So just to, like, let you know so that he wasn't completely alone. And he knows that your mom was a loving mom and a good mom. So he. It felt. It felt like better if he was just out of your life because he was so broken.
• 28:41
  Speaker D: Right.
• 28:42
  Speaker B: It's like he made a hard decision to, like, instead of me being broken here and taking up space, I would give her a better life if I just moved out of the way.
• 28:51
  Speaker D: Right. Right.
• 28:52
  Speaker B: So. So that's what I wanted to tell you. Tell you before we moved on to the questions. So how batshit crazy it is that we found this story. How like, it was completely bizarre. What are your impressions of that?
• 29:08
  Speaker D: I mean. I mean, the fact that it even came to you as. It's like. It's like, why? I mean, how.
• 29:16
  Speaker B: Or why? And you know, and so powerful that. That the murderer's family was like, no, this story needs to be told again. It needs to have more light shed on it.
• 29:29
  Speaker D: Right.
• 29:30
  Speaker B: Didn't. Teresa, did you email me that Ruby was from that area?
• 29:34
  Speaker C: Yes. Yes. She was born in Union, South Carolina. That's why I thought.
• 29:38
  Speaker B: I thought.
• 29:38
  Speaker C: That's why I emailed you. I thought, they have to know this. So I listened to your podcast and I'm like, ridgeway, I've got to look where Ridgeway is. I'm like, that's only like, what it was an hour from. From Union where Ruby was born. So I thought.
• 29:51
  Speaker A: Insane.
• 29:52
  Speaker C: Yes. Isn't it?
• 29:53
  Speaker A: We did not know that.
• 29:54
  Speaker B: We did not know that until you're. It gives me goosebumps.
• 29:56
  Speaker D: Yeah.
• 29:56
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 29:56
  Speaker D: I think I have a little bit of goosebumps. Right.
• 29:59
  Speaker A: That's validation for us that she. She was coming through as well. As well as the murderer's family.
• 30:05
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 30:05
  Speaker A: That's crazy. Thank you for that.
• 30:09
  Speaker B: That is insane. Well, and that, you know, we. When we do our research, it's just as intuitive as when we're in the field. And I was. Would. If. If that would have saved me so much time in the research process if I would have known that. Because I'm like, Are like, is this really happening? Because this is such a batshit. Like, we're not these Kind of people like, yes, we're psychics and woo, woo. But I was like, time warp. Are you shitting me? Like, that really happened. That really happened. And it's like, that is crazy.
• 30:43
  Speaker C: The Elvis songs and everything.
• 30:45
  Speaker A: Yes. That was so crazy.
• 30:47
  Speaker C: Yes.
• 30:48
  Speaker B: And if it only happened to Jennifer and not me, I don't know if I would. I'm like, you're just. I don't know if I would have believed her because, like, that's how powerful it was. Like, this is. This is some crazy.
• 30:59
  Speaker A: Yeah. That had never happened. Nothing like that had ever happened.
• 31:02
  Speaker D: Yeah. And my mom loved Elvis, so. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
• 31:08
  Speaker A: That's another connection.
• 31:09
  Speaker D: She loved Elvis.
• 31:10
  Speaker B: That.
• 31:10
  Speaker D: Yes.
• 31:11
  Speaker B: You, Mickey, I think we're family now. Like you have to be with us forever.
• 31:16
  Speaker A: Our mother loved Elvis too. Elvis raised us. He was always on TV and on the radio. Yes. Yeah.
• 31:24
  Speaker B: We had an episode. Elvis is my daddy. Like, I don't know if it was a free one, but we're explaining like how, yes, Elvis is our father too.
• 31:33
  Speaker C: Oh, wow, that's awesome.
• 31:37
  Speaker D: In 2018, my sister in law, Sister and I went to Mississippi and my brother took us to say, the pond. I'm not going to do the town that Elvis was born in.
• 31:49
  Speaker C: Thank you. Yes. I couldn't remember.
• 31:52
  Speaker D: So we went to his birthday place and we toured his little birthplace. We toured his museum and.
• 31:56
  Speaker A: Yeah, so we did it too.
• 31:58
  Speaker D: Yeah.
• 31:58
  Speaker B: It's a, it's a. Right. It's a pilgrimage in our family.
• 32:01
  Speaker D: Yes.
• 32:02
  Speaker B: We don't go to the Wailing Wall. We go to Graceland and Tupelo.
• 32:06
  Speaker A: Yes, it's Tupelo.
• 32:08
  Speaker B: Tupelo.
• 32:09
  Speaker A: Well, I think Riley says everything.
• 32:13
  Speaker B: Everything wrong.
• 32:13
  Speaker A: It's my job to correct her. Yeah, that's what, that's why I log on to these things.
• 32:19
  Speaker B: Do you know of any personalities or do you know any stories about George and Zola and Ruby that you want to share?
• 32:29
  Speaker D: Not too much. No. My dad didn't really talk about them too much. You know, the only reason I knew the story is because my mom told me about it and you know, just what she remembered of it happening and.
• 32:39
  Speaker C: And they called George. George, right?
• 32:41
  Speaker D: Yep. George.
• 32:41
  Speaker B: Oh, that's so cute.
• 32:43
  Speaker C: And I know, and I know. I heard. I saw on the Dickinson site and also from this author that wrote a book about this whole Scenari, Mario, he was supposed to be. George was supposed to go to Little League the next day. And all these kids, all these other boys that were very good friends with him are just. Where is he? Freaked out when they Found out what happened, of course, and they said he was very much missed at Little League the next day. So, yeah, you know, I just think of this poor little kid and that.
• 33:11
  Speaker D: He did not get in. Have a life.
• 33:13
  Speaker C: Yes.
• 33:14
  Speaker B: Well. Well, let me tell you, I really believe that Zola had intuition about her. Like, so just know that. And I think that if you started playing around with this stuff, too, in a responsible way, you can connect with them really easy because they are try. I mean, they are trying to connect. I was feeling Ruby all week waiting for this call. I was feeling her all week, and that's when I knew that she was saying they were like sisters. And she was coming through when I was putting the outline together. So you should also know that Ruby liked Elvis. She always had, like, the house was warm with food. You couldn't go into her house without getting fed. That was like. That was one of her. One of her love language was to feed people, Right?
• 34:03
  Speaker D: Oh, that's nice.
• 34:04
  Speaker B: Is there anything you want to know since we have them on the line? Before I get into these questions that.
• 34:11
  Speaker C: You want to know.
• 34:13
  Speaker D: I know. I don't know. Whatever you think. What do you want to know?
• 34:16
  Speaker C: What do you want to know? What do you want to know?
• 34:21
  Speaker D: I want to know what you want to know.
• 34:23
  Speaker C: Well, she.
• 34:25
  Speaker B: Well, let's just tell you. Ruby, like, literally is proud of you, and you look like her, and she, like, just. She sees herself in you, your kindness.
• 34:36
  Speaker D: Teresa said that she thinks my daughter Tanya looks a lot, like, extreme.
• 34:40
  Speaker C: I could not believe it when I finally. So about 10 years ago on Ancestry, I connected Will with Jack's first cousin on Ruby's side, or Zola's side, the Normans. And so he sent me pictures, and I shared them with Mickey.
• 34:53
  Speaker A: And I.
• 34:54
  Speaker C: There's a picture of. And those are the pictures I sent to you of Ruby. And I was like, look at that picture. That looks just like Tanya. Tanya's Mickey's daughter. I'm like, I cannot believe the facial features are, like, the same. It was amazing. And then I sent you, I think, the email about what Mickey. After we started talking about this and Mickey listened to your podcast, the strangest thing happened where, you know, and that might be a question about the. She was babysitting for her daughter and all of a sudden realized, you know her. I mean, she knows her dog is. Her daughter's dog's name is Ruby.
• 35:27
  Speaker D: And I asked Tanya, I'm saying, tanya, why did you name your dog Ruby? And she goes, I don't know. It's just the name that we liked. And this is what Teresa was saying. I'm babysitting my grandson. Watching my grandson. It wasn't babies. That wasn't babysitting. And he just recently started watching Superman cartoons. Spider Man. Excuse me, Spider man cartoons. And Ruby's this hyper little beagle basset mix that still kind of still puppy chews on everything. And she's in my face, barking at me, barking at me. And I'm like, shut up, Ruby. I'm hollering at her because I've tried, you know, calming. I've tried holding her. I'm like, ruby, Ruby, stop it. And I kid you not, I glanced up at their flat screen tv and it's black. But the only thing that popped up on the screen was Zola. And I went like that. Teresa and I had just been talking about it more so than normal, you know, More so. I mean, you know, just a lot lately about Ruby and Zola. And I'm like, what the hell? Why is Zola up on the screen? Well, Zola's one of the characters in the Spider man, but. So Zola was getting ready to talk. So it pulled up Zola's name because they had the closed captioning on, but still. And I'm like, all righty. Zola's telling me to quit hollering at her daughter.
• 36:47
  Speaker B: You know what? She wasn't. She's saying that that's not how Ruby was. Like, she was saying, like, that's not like her. Ruby. Like I said, they really are intuitive. She's really intuitive. So Zola knows how to get to you.
• 37:01
  Speaker D: Yeah. So I wanted to know that, you know this. They were thinking of you as well. Y. You got Ruby on your mind. So I'm going to throw myself out there, too, you know? Yeah.
• 37:11
  Speaker C: That's what I think.
• 37:12
  Speaker A: Yep.
• 37:12
  Speaker D: Yep.
• 37:13
  Speaker A: She's present. She's present, and she's making her. Her. Her spirit known. That's awesome.
• 37:20
  Speaker D: Wow.
• 37:20
  Speaker C: I know. Is that. Yeah, just.
• 37:21
  Speaker D: That is just amazing.
• 37:23
  Speaker C: I know.
• 37:23
  Speaker D: You know, it's like, okay, why did that happen? You know, it's.
• 37:26
  Speaker C: Especially since we were just.
• 37:27
  Speaker D: Yeah.
• 37:28
  Speaker C: Podcast. And then we've been talking about it more again lately.
• 37:30
  Speaker D: Yes.
• 37:31
  Speaker B: How so you found out about the murders from your mother?
• 37:36
  Speaker D: Yes.
• 37:37
  Speaker B: Okay. Is it something that you grew up knowing or is it something that you knew? Like, when did you find out?
• 37:43
  Speaker D: I think probably, well, one day. I mean, we were how old we were.
• 37:48
  Speaker C: Yeah. So you thought maybe she told you Only like a few years before.
• 37:52
  Speaker D: Maybe like I was 10 or 12 or something. I Mean, I was young, you know, she probably, you know. Yeah. Didn't want to share that kind of.
• 37:59
  Speaker C: Because you told me when we were so. We were in seventh grade when. When she and I first became friends, she told. That was one of the first things when we. Just talking about our family. She told me this story, and I just couldn't fathom it. And I thought it sounded like something out of a movie.
• 38:13
  Speaker D: Yeah. Like that could really happen. I'm not. That you didn't trust what I was telling.
• 38:16
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 38:16
  Speaker D: No, it's something like that.
• 38:17
  Speaker C: I was just like, wow, that's terrible. You know, and just. Just, you know, and I have this image of, you know, maybe from watching, like, movies about Texas, like the movie Giant or something, that the host was actually sitting alone and this drifter person came along and killed them. But here it was, you know, in Dickinson, and it was a very residential area. And, you know, as I started doing the research about it because I was so curious and found the articles about it and I saw the picture of the house and.
• 38:46
  Speaker D: Yeah.
• 38:46
  Speaker C: There was, like, pine trees nearby. It was very residential.
• 38:49
  Speaker D: Residential. Normal family home. Yes. Yes. Not the.
• 38:53
  Speaker C: Yes. Yes.
• 38:55
  Speaker D: Yeah.
• 38:55
  Speaker B: How.
• 38:55
  Speaker C: How traumatic that. That, you know, your father and. And grandfather were at work and this happened, and they just had seen your grandmother, you know, and then she returned home and that happened. Yeah.
• 39:08
  Speaker B: Also, she. Ruby makes me feel like you have that same kind of caregiver about you that you're making. Sure. Like someone comes in your house, you're getting them coffee, you're sitting them down. That was very much your grandmother. She sees. She's watching you and sees herself in you. And that's what she wants you to.
• 39:24
  Speaker C: All big time.
• 39:26
  Speaker B: That's what she wants you to know. Like your mannerisms. You. You didn't have to meet her to. To get those you have.
• 39:33
  Speaker D: Right.
• 39:33
  Speaker B: And it's just know that. And to just give you a little tidbit about us. Our father didn't know his father.
• 39:41
  Speaker D: Okay.
• 39:42
  Speaker B: And researching my family, Jenna and I are getting confused about who's who because they behaved the exact same way.
• 39:50
  Speaker D: Yeah.
• 39:50
  Speaker B: And so. And they never met, didn't know each other. So that's like. That's what I think of when Ruby's saying she's. She's just like me. Like she would. If not for this tragedy, you would be the one picking up a stranger. You wouldn't now, but she's like. She has that in her to make sure. Like to feed the strays, to make sure everyone's.
• 40:11
  Speaker D: My mom always told that about me. She always said that about me. You're always that person that, you know. My first boyfriend had one leg that was 4 inches shorter than the other. You know, like you're always picking up that you're always like attracting to, you know. Yeah. That aren't like normal mainstream people. And like my daughter and son in law came over Friday night and you know, we had burgers and you know, made supper and I make sure everybody's eating before I sit down to eat. Everybody's.
• 40:41
  Speaker C: Everybody has their food.
• 40:42
  Speaker D: Everybody's. Everybody's good. Before I, Before I'm okay to sit down and eat. And I'm like, why is that so old school? You know, most people are just grab and go.
• 40:50
  Speaker B: You know, that is literally the same behaviors your grandma's had. You're living and she feel that you're living a life that feels like a continuation of hers. So just know that.
• 41:07
  Speaker D: Yes. Yes.
• 41:08
  Speaker B: I can't cry. Jennifer won't let me cry.
• 41:11
  Speaker D: Yeah, I know. I'm trying not to. My daughter is the exact same way. She is very giving and she runs a. An in home daycare, taking care of 10 children along with her own son. Taking care of kids for people so that they can go do their livelihood. And she gives and cares and when she gets frustrated, she wears it right here. And that's how I am very much too. She. I'm so man like. Well, then this, you know, be professional, say this is my. But she doesn't. But people see that in her and know when they've pushed her buttons too far. Because I'm not good at expressing my emotions and putting it out there. And she's just like that too. So I think Ruby might have been like that too. Just give, give, give. And even when she might have been a little frustrated about always giving, she still wasn't going to make that part of who she was.
• 42:03
  Speaker B: So these murders, how did that affect after knowing that? Because like it's so. It must have changed the way you viewed the world.
• 42:14
  Speaker D: Oh, yes, definitely.
• 42:15
  Speaker A: And yourself.
• 42:16
  Speaker D: Yes, yes. I mean, I'll keep, I'll keep going back to my daughter because, you know, she's my only child and we're both very much like, we cannot go somewhere without checking in with each other. Okay, I'm going here. I'll be back. And she's 31 years old, but she still has to let me know when she's going, where she's going. If I was up on my way up here, down here to Teresa's yesterday, and I was talking to Teresa on the phone, and Tanya's calling with Teresa. I have to call you right back. Tanya's calling. Because if I don't answer Tanya calling me, she's going to think I'm in the ditch. Right to the negative. Her, too. She goes right to the negative. I'm in the ditch. I've had car trouble. I'm in distress. She's not answering me. Okay, you got 10 minutes to call me back.
• 42:56
  Speaker B: You know, so this is generational trauma that has been carried with you guys.
• 43:02
  Speaker D: But I never wanted. I never put it back to Ruby. I know that, you know, Ruby and Zola and the tragedy that happened, and there's tragedy on my mom's side as well, and I know all that. And I never really put the pieces of how I am to that. I just think that's how I am, you know?
• 43:17
  Speaker C: But now.
• 43:18
  Speaker D: But now it's like I can kind of look back and, you know, see how it affected. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 43:23
  Speaker C: Well, you know, when. When we were teenagers, well, when I was older, I asked my mom, I said, well, you never seem like you were concerned when I hung out with Mickey. And she's, you know, like, driving with Mickey or whatever. Mickey got her license before I did, even though I'm older, but I passed for fail, my driver's test. But anyway, my mom said, well, I was never worried because Mickey was this type of person. You could tell. She never. She never wanted to get injured or was. Wasn't, like, reckless or careless. She was very careful. And my mom. So my mom knew, you know, was never worried about me hanging out with.
• 43:53
  Speaker D: Yes, yes, yes. And my mom and her mom were, like, total opposites. It's like my mom would be like, it's 1005 Horse Haunt, or, where's Mickey? Where's Mickey? And so she'd call Teresa's mom, and Theresa's mom would be like, oh, they're fine. They're girls. Yeah, that's because my mom knew I.
• 44:07
  Speaker C: Was with you and I wouldn't.
• 44:09
  Speaker D: My mom's at home, like, worried all to get out, probably because of her past history. She was adopted, you know, and she had a hard. A hard childhood with her real mother. And there was a lot of trauma there and then with my dad's issues. And so my mom always was like that as well, you know, very vigilant. Vigilant.
• 44:28
  Speaker C: Yes, yes, yes.
• 44:31
  Speaker B: You just feel like such a gift. You just feel like such a gift, like, truly. That's. That's the energy that they're expressing.
• 44:41
  Speaker D: Thank you.
• 44:42
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 44:43
  Speaker C: She Is.
• 44:44
  Speaker D: Thank you. I'm not going to cry anymore.
• 44:49
  Speaker B: So, Teresa, did you read the article and the Galveston Daily News about the day they were. That your family, your grandfather and in court. Yes. Did you? Yes.
• 45:05
  Speaker C: And what Jack said to. To Ellis's sister Patricia, where he did he. If I remember correctly, it's been a while since I read it, but he said something like, your brother took my little. Killed my little brother. Took my little brother away from me. And I just was like. And I remember that's what it said in the article. He went up in court, you know what? But, yeah, and I just was like. I said, your dad. And I think you. And I started crying on the phone at that time, too, because I'm like, can you imagine? Your daddy was only like, what, 21, 22. And he went over to the sister who was. I heard, you know, very. That Patricia, very normal and, you know, said, yeah, your brother took my little brother away from me. And I just thought, how, you know, you're not just his little brother, but, you know, mother and grandmother and what.
• 45:52
  Speaker D: It did to his dad.
• 45:53
  Speaker C: Yes.
• 45:53
  Speaker D: As well.
• 45:54
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 45:55
  Speaker D: Because he died. Yeah.
• 45:56
  Speaker C: His dad died four years later.
• 45:58
  Speaker D: Yeah.
• 45:58
  Speaker A: We actually have an article, a snippet of an article from the Galveston daily news on May 27, 1956, that describes your dad's reaction sitting in court. Do you. Are you okay if I read it to you? Yes. Okay. You sure? Okay. So I'm going to read this.
• 46:18
  Speaker B: It's.
• 46:19
  Speaker A: It's not too long. And then afterwards, I'm interested in what, what this. What's your emotional response to this, like, what you're feeling from your dad. Galveston Daily News, May 22, 1956. A trio has been in attending the sanity hearing of Ellis Lawn. A gray haired man with glasses, a white haired woman and a boy with a crew cut in his late teens or early twenties. They have sat in the courtroom and listened to the testimony surrounding the murder of Ms. Ruby McPherson, 42, her 12 year old son George, and her mother, Mrs. Zola Norman, 63. The three have been quiet, listening intently, but showing no emotion. They have not been so that Monday night. The boy bent forward and clutched his hands, which he placed between his knees as he heard the Texas Ranger, A. Oliver, testify that Mrs. McPherson was always happy to pick up servicemen on the road because her son was in the service. The boy bit his lips and cast his big eyes down. The woman took out a handkerchief and dabbed her eyes. The man's eyes reddened and he blinked them several times. The boy clasped his Hands so tightly that his knuckles showed white. And he, too, blinked his eyes and looked upward. This was when the same witness testified that Ellis admitted going into Mrs. Norman's room and shooting her. And then George, who was sprawled on the bed on his stomach, attempting to get up. Ellis shot him, too. You see, Monday was George's birthday. He would have been 13 years old. The trio of spectators is John McPherson, the husband and father, Jack, the son and older brother, and Mrs. John McPherson of Bel Air, Michigan, a grandmother and mother in law. Mrs. McPherson said, if they find this boy insane, then there's something wrong with the laws of Texas. The older McPherson said, It's the only defense they had, and they better make the best of it. The boy said nothing. It was his little brother's birthday. So that boy sitting in court was your dad with his dad. What are your impressions of this information?
• 48:59
  Speaker D: That no one should ever have to go through that. That he even lived to the age that he did is impressive. Because what he went through, the strength. The strength and to keep moving forward and. And everything in his life that was based on that changed his whole future. So he didn't really get to have a life either. You know, it's like when you hear that someone loses a family member, well, then that changes them as well. And they don't have the same life that they were supposed to have. And how do you. How do you make the best of that? You're either gonna move on. And I think for me, my. My coping mechanism is to be. Yep, yep, yep. I heard you. Yep. I know. Tracy, you know? Yep. Happy. Glad you're doing it.
• 49:46
  Speaker C: My research.
• 49:47
  Speaker D: Yes. Yeah. Pushing it in her face.
• 49:49
  Speaker C: Kind of not.
• 49:51
  Speaker D: Right. Right.
• 49:53
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 49:53
  Speaker D: Something was compelling me.
• 49:55
  Speaker C: Yes.
• 49:55
  Speaker D: Yep.
• 49:56
  Speaker C: So the strength.
• 49:58
  Speaker D: Just the unfairness of it, you know?
• 50:00
  Speaker B: And I just. I mean, his. Your father's brain wasn't even developed yet. Like, it doesn't fully develop until, like. So it's such a time in his life and to know. To have to sit there and go through that. I mean, I can't even read it without crying, you know, to be in the courtroom is just the strength of your father. It must have took anything out of him. And that strength I see in you, too, you have that same strength, that same composure that he has.
• 50:34
  Speaker D: But I always. When I'm like. Even now, I'm like, okay, look up the light. Look up, look up.
• 50:38
  Speaker C: You know when you talked about. Yeah.
• 50:40
  Speaker D: Your dad's eyes going up, like he's trying to control. Hit. You know, And I. All the time, it's my coping mechanism. And it's like, I'm an emotional person, you know, And I sometimes think, well, you know, I'm good now. But then, like, this is like, pulling off the emotions as well. And, you know, so look at the light. It'll be okay. You know, look up.
• 51:00
  Speaker B: Well, when you look at the light, think. Think of your dad. Like, you know, just think of your dad and just look up and just be like. Hi.
• 51:07
  Speaker D: Hi.
• 51:09
  Speaker B: Okay, so have you done your own research? Obviously, Teresa has already answered that regarding the events of that night, so not so much.
• 51:18
  Speaker D: No, Teresa.
• 51:22
  Speaker A: I love it.
• 51:23
  Speaker B: Because the reason why I love that is because your friend loves you so much. She knows this is something that is. Changed the trajectory of your entire existence, and she wants to make sure that you heal from that and get. And see your life through that lens. Because she loves you so much.
• 51:44
  Speaker D: Yes.
• 51:45
  Speaker A: And she knows that it could be painful for you personally because it's. It's your direct line. Right?
• 51:52
  Speaker D: Yes.
• 51:52
  Speaker A: But you still need to know. Right. To inform your future and just know that this impacted you in a big way, but also that you are stronger because of it.
• 52:07
  Speaker D: Correct.
• 52:07
  Speaker A: In a way. And also I feel like your relationship with your daughter is very special in. In a way, because of your upbringing and your past and this part of your. Your ancestry.
• 52:21
  Speaker D: Yes. I will agree with you on that. And it's like, all of it. Yes.
• 52:26
  Speaker A: So I have a question. Did. Have you talked about, like, did your family know about what happened to the murderer?
• 52:35
  Speaker D: Like, well, like, you mean that he was put in prison, and then when they released them, I think your mom. Right.
• 52:42
  Speaker B: And.
• 52:43
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 52:43
  Speaker A: That he was released. It actually wasn't in prison, but more of a. Like a psychiatric hospital. Yeah.
• 52:49
  Speaker C: Yes.
• 52:50
  Speaker D: In the hospital. Yes. And I think. Yeah, I think my mom knew. Yeah.
• 52:53
  Speaker C: Yeah. Because you said your dad never talked about it, but I think you said your mom said that he was.
• 52:58
  Speaker D: He was.
• 52:58
  Speaker C: Got released at some time. Yes. They found out later.
• 53:02
  Speaker D: Yes.
• 53:02
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 53:02
  Speaker D: When it happened, but later. Yeah. Yes.
• 53:05
  Speaker A: And what. So that was. It was. That. Was that important detail part of the. The lore or your own family lore, or was it not something that. That kind of colored the whole situation, the history of the situation?
• 53:24
  Speaker D: For. For me, again, it's just like.
• 53:28
  Speaker A: Okay, y'all, because I gotta tell you, Jill and I are irate.
• 53:33
  Speaker D: Yes.
• 53:34
  Speaker A: Truly irate.
• 53:35
  Speaker B: I was really. And his obit put me over the edge, like, enraged. Like, I helped out. I was like, are you kidding?
• 53:45
  Speaker A: He's an avid reader and always tried to learn new things. Really? Really. It's really.
• 53:53
  Speaker D: I. Yes, yes, I agree with you. It's really just like he was a normal, normal guy.
• 53:59
  Speaker C: He was like a bachelor that just, you know, read books and just hung out and was mellow.
• 54:04
  Speaker D: There was nothing in this old. About the murder of three people that were trying to do him a service.
• 54:11
  Speaker A: Exactly.
• 54:12
  Speaker D: Yes. It's very frustrating.
• 54:13
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 54:13
  Speaker A: So that just pissed us off.
• 54:15
  Speaker D: Yeah.
• 54:16
  Speaker A: They're better than we are. Yeah, Nikki, you're better than we are.
• 54:19
  Speaker B: Yeah. That and to tell you the truth, I think your father, if he would have known that. I don't know the time frame, but he would have lost his shit. I don't think that something could have kept your father from choking that guy out. Like I could just. I'm just saying. I'm just telling it. That's what he's saying.
• 54:38
  Speaker A: It's a good thing that he didn't. I wasn't aware of that.
• 54:41
  Speaker B: And I am just relating what the spirits are saying. He literally would want to choke the life out of that. Yeah.
• 54:48
  Speaker A: And rightly so.
• 54:50
  Speaker D: Yeah.
• 54:50
  Speaker B: I don't blame him. I like on pure. I'm pure emotion, I would. I don't blame him at all.
• 54:57
  Speaker D: Right.
• 54:57
  Speaker B: But the fact that he lived on a tree lined street across from a park really pissed me off because I know, I know that was like, you son of a bitch. And because like I would almost feel like it would be haunting for him to see a 12 year old at the park playing like going to Little league and not think of you killed and snuffed out the potential.
• 55:21
  Speaker C: I hope it was haunting for him.
• 55:23
  Speaker D: Like, do you, do you think he had any remorse whatsoever or any compassion?
• 55:28
  Speaker C: Yeah, that's.
• 55:28
  Speaker D: That's a question.
• 55:29
  Speaker C: That's a good question.
• 55:30
  Speaker D: Do you think that this man was like, like able to make amends with his life?
• 55:36
  Speaker B: Let me look at his picture. Hold on.
• 55:39
  Speaker D: And.
• 55:40
  Speaker C: Yeah, that's a good question.
• 55:41
  Speaker D: Yeah. And I mean, I'm sure his dad probably wondered that. Right. And he was young too and he did a terrible, tragic thing. But here I am trying to find the benefit of everybody and the good in everybody and maybe let me pull.
• 55:58
  Speaker B: Up his picture so I can look at, look at his face. Hold on one second. That's. That's heavy.
• 56:06
  Speaker D: And what year was it that he was released?
• 56:09
  Speaker A: It was the early 70s. 70s?
• 56:11
  Speaker C: Yeah. Like 72 or something.
• 56:13
  Speaker A: Yeah, 72 or 73.
• 56:15
  Speaker D: So yeah, so he got to live a good majority of his life as a free person. Yeah.
• 56:20
  Speaker C: In Arkansas, near his hometown. That small town in Arkansas, doesn't it?
• 56:25
  Speaker B: Like the Details just get me riled up as you're talking.
• 56:28
  Speaker A: Yeah, he died in 2013.
• 56:31
  Speaker D: Yeah.
• 56:32
  Speaker C: A year after Jack died.
• 56:33
  Speaker D: After my dad died.
• 56:37
  Speaker C: Yeah. Because I couldn't. When I looked. When I was doing the research and looked him up, you know, and I knew in 2010 he was alive, and then I, you know, kept kind of watching. And then all of a sudden, I saw his old bit in 2013, and I thought, wow, he lived. Outlived Jack by one year.
• 56:50
  Speaker D: By one year.
• 56:51
  Speaker A: What are you getting, Jill?
• 56:53
  Speaker B: It's so. It's like looking at Marilyn Manson to me. Marilyn Manson? Like Charles Charles.
• 56:59
  Speaker C: Sorry.
• 57:01
  Speaker B: You know.
• 57:04
  Speaker D: Marilyn Manson. Marilyn Manson. Trying to get the connection there.
• 57:10
  Speaker B: I mean, he's.
• 57:11
  Speaker A: He's a scary individual, but he's not a murderer.
• 57:13
  Speaker B: But he's not.
• 57:14
  Speaker A: But.
• 57:15
  Speaker B: But his eyes, to me, I can. I read. I have to read the eyes. And his eyes look like sharks. Like, just dead.
• 57:22
  Speaker C: Yes.
• 57:22
  Speaker B: So big and dead inside.
• 57:24
  Speaker C: Yes.
• 57:25
  Speaker A: I think that he was a true sociopath in the sense that he doesn't experience normal human emotions. He doesn't make connections with people the way normal, functioning, healthy people make connections with others.
• 57:39
  Speaker D: Now, as an adult because of what happened in the past or even back then.
• 57:43
  Speaker B: Even back. No, no, no.
• 57:44
  Speaker A: I think his. Entire. His entire life, he was a true sociopath. And he was able to do horrendous things without feeling because those feelings didn't come naturally to him. I think there was some level of rehabilitation that happened, but just to the point where he was. He learned to maybe not be dangerous, maybe function better, but in terms of remorse, I don't think he had the ability to feel empathy or to feel remorse. He just learned how to blend. So for that. So in that regard, it was a successful 20 years in. In the hospital because he learned how to blend in with people who are. Who are normal, who have a normal amount of empathy, and who don't hurt others actively. But did he take responsibility? No. Did he feel any empathy for what he did? Any remorse? I don't believe he. He did. That's my take, Jill.
• 58:40
  Speaker B: I agree with you 100%. That's. That's wonderful. And I also would say. And when I. When I'm looking at his. His picture, what he. What I feel like is coming through from the prison. He had to follow the rules, and that. That structure and the rules that he had to do made him less dangerous. Saying that there's like, these are the rules. You follow them, and if you don't, these are the consequences. And having that strictly strict boundary Helped him rehabilitate. But he's still, he's, he's still a sociopath. He's still.
• 59:19
  Speaker A: Right.
• 59:19
  Speaker D: Because he left, he left the service too, correct? I mean, yes. Yeah. He was AWOL because he followed the instructions and the rules. And so even then he couldn't do like have that pressure in his face or else, you know, so he. Or else. And then.
• 59:39
  Speaker A: Right. Well, he escaped the consequences. He went away. Right. So he was presented with rules. He didn't follow him, but he didn't, he didn't suffer any consequences because he just left. Right. So in this case, he broke society's rules in a lot of different ways, was very destructive, and then there were consequences, 20 years of consequences. So he did learn that when you don't follow society's rules, you do suffer consequences. And it was that learning that taught him the ability to like, not hurt others. He needed to learn those very strict rules. But in terms of remorse. No.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker D: Like he could see that 12 year old as outside you and not have that right to cause damage. No.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker A: Right. And know that if he were to do that, there would be a consequence that he doesn't like. Because he didn't want to be locked up with no freedom. Right. So in that regard, I think when he, when he left, he was no longer dangerous, but he, but he never took accountability. He just learned how to play the game of society, which is follow the rules that help that. It's not a very satisfying answer, but at least we, I believe he didn't do any more harm, you know, to.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker B: People after he was, he's just one sick bastard. Like, and I want to say this, if he had, if he were given the tools as a child, he, this may not have happened. But like his, he was just not raised by some. Well, first of all, there wasn't that communication about like sociopathic behavior and these indicators. Right.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker A: And mental illness. There wasn't a widespread understanding of mental illness. If you recognize somebody was mentally ill, you certainly didn't talk about it.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker B: Right?
• 1:01:23
  Speaker C: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker A: Right. You would hide it.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker A: You didn't talk about it and try to treat it, you know, or.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker B: And he came from a family that even obviously was not able to look at him and see him for what he is. Right. Like his, his sister, his mom, they're. He's a good boy. He's a real, like, it's obvious to me that even if he did something like, like hurt an animal, they would just be like, oh, that's just a boy.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker A: Boys being boys.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Just the Inability to know what? That they're raising a sociopath. So, yeah. Yeah.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker A: Jill, I really like this next question.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker B: Read it.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker A: So how do you think Mickey and Teresa, how do you think Ruby, Zola, George, even Jack, how do you think your family members want to be remembered.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker D: As what you said? You know, they're very caring people, always giving. You know, Geordie didn't really get to have a life, so, you know, he. He would want to be remembered as what he wanted to do in life. And, you know, what about you? He said, yes.
• 1:02:38
  Speaker C: Well, and I. Yeah. And I think, like, what you were saying, and Mickey, what you said, too, about, like, your personality and how Ruby is. And I think that's how she wants to remember it. And, you know, just from when I read about her and I read other articles about her, she was in the Dickinson Garden Club and did all these extra things and took constraint. That author told me she took in stray animals and would find new homes for them. Because that author, his name was Stephen Long, he said that Ruby gave them their first dog because it was a stray. And she. So she was very caring. And I think that's how she wants to remember. And that's how Mickey has always been. I mean, you know, obviously, she's been my best friend since we were 12, so. Yeah. So I think through Mickey, I think. Yeah. Like you said, Ruby. Ruby's personality comes through to be remembered. And.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker D: Yes.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker C: And your grandmother also.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker D: Yes, she.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker B: Ruby, is making me feel to tell you that you are her legacy.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker D: Okay.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker B: That you are her. And, like, the goodness in you that you're able to do is your own, but you're doing it for her, too.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker D: Yes.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker B: You're able to live for her, too. So. And she wants you to know her. So, you know, it's. It's. Ironically, Jennifer, after we get off the phone with you guys, Jen and I are going to talk about a meditation to connect with loved ones in spirit that's going to be dropping in the feed, ironically enough, so that would be available to you to use to bring Zola and Ruby and even Jack to you in spirit. Because Jack has a lot of things that he's processed on the other side, and he wants you to get to know him as the energy that he was before these murders.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker D: Right? Yes. Yes.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker B: So I encourage you to work with them in spirit, just to get that side of your family back, because they're here waiting for you. And whenever you're ready, you can just tap them in whether. I mean, I. I do it for a parking spot. I do it for, like, a good deal on something. Like, if I'm haggling with, like, buying a car, like, I'm like, tap in. Come on. I need you now. So I would encourage you to do the same thing.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker A: Is there anything else that. That you want us to know or that you want to share?
• 1:05:03
  Speaker D: I. I've always felt like I have this little bit of sense of when something's going to happen. I mean, as silly as, like, don't put that there because it's going to tip over, and then it tips over, you know, Or I can't even explain, like, the circumstances, but always, like. Like, one step ahead of myself of what's going to happen if I do it this way and I still do it that way. And then it happens, and I'm like, okay, who's telling me not to do that? You know? And I'm not listening. It's always like this. Like this premonition almost of something that's one step ahead of me, trying to warn me, so to speak, of. Don't do it that way. You know, think about what you're doing, you know, as far as even spilling coffee all over the floor in the morning, because I put it where I knew I shouldn't put it, and then I knocked it over, and I'm trying to get out the door to get to work. And if I were to listen to someone saying, put it there instead of there, then it wouldn't have happened. So maybe it's them, you know, watching out for me. To your guardian.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker B: My guardian angel, Jennifer. Do you know who I'm thinking that is?
• 1:06:07
  Speaker A: Well, my message to you is trust your intuition, number one.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker D: Yes.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker A: You know, like, it could be your own intuition and teaching you that you need to trust it.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker D: Yes.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker B: So just.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker A: So don't question it. Don't play around when you. When you get a feeling like that. Honor it.
• 1:06:25
  Speaker D: Telling you to do. Yes, exactly.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker A: And, Jill.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker B: And that is your great grandmother Zola.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker C: That's what I was gonna say.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker B: That is Zola. Because she was like, I was quiet for. And she's like, never again.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker A: Yeah, never again.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker B: Now, I'm telling y'all, I'm looking out for you, and I'm telling you, no, don't put it there.
• 1:06:42
  Speaker D: Don't put it there. You know, think about before you take that next step, you know?
• 1:06:46
  Speaker B: And it's like, yes, pay attention to.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker D: What you're doing, because you're not doing it the way you should do it.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker B: You know, you have really, really strong family members in spirit on the other side. And you have the psychic ability to have a relationship with them.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker D: Wonderful.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker B: Truly.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker A: Just know that they are around you. Yes, they are around you. And you can call upon them for comfort, to communicate or just to. Just to know. Just as strength. Because they are part of your past. And we believe that they still have influence.
• 1:07:24
  Speaker D: Yeah. And so then they're part of my future as well.
• 1:07:26
  Speaker B: Exactly. Exactly. Even Georgie, who George, will come to you in an energy of just pure joy. That's this. That's his energy. He is just a joyful, joyful kid.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker D: Then he's coming. He's coming to me through my grandson. Then my grandson.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker B: Oh.
• 1:07:45
  Speaker D: People see him from a distance and they are like, oh, my word. They instantly have a smile on their face. They instantly fill his energy, and people don't even know him. Will walk by Tanya by in the store and say, your grand. Your son is beautiful. Oh, my gosh, look at that smile.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker C: And he's always smiling.
• 1:08:04
  Speaker D: He's always smiling, and he's always putting out this really strong energy of happiness. He is. He's only two, but he. I love it more so than any other child I've seen. Not just because he's my grandson. I asked her, I said, does he.
• 1:08:18
  Speaker C: Always smile because he's always smiling.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker D: Yes. Is always smiling. And even when he's crabby, he still has a smile on his face. And so maybe that's a little bit of Georgie coming out, living a life that he didn't get to live.
• 1:08:30
  Speaker B: Exactly. I feel like you. You just living your life and. And doing. And being the people that you and your family and Teresa are. Are really healing. Healing not only the present and the future, but also the past.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker D: Right? Yes.
• 1:08:49
  Speaker B: So they want to say thank you. Thank you. I am like, yeah, I am sorry. This. This is a hard. A hard story. And just thank you for reaching out to us and finding us. Just thank you for doing what you're doing because you're. You're bringing so much hope, hope and joy to the people that didn't get the experience it themselves here.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker D: And then being able to do that through people like Teresa, because we're life friends, you know, we're in our 60s and we've been friends since school and.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker C: Teresa.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker D: I'm gonna cry.
• 1:09:33
  Speaker B: Teresa. It doesn't. It's not lost on me that this. That these stories are traumatic and you're taking the pain. You're the filter for her pain. I want you to know that that is not lost.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker D: She's also very much. She loves to dig into family History and find pieces of information. And I can say I have not always showed the same enthusiasm. I'm sure there's been times where Teresa's hung up the phone going, well, I thought she'd be a little more excited about that. Have you?
• 1:10:09
  Speaker C: Well, no, I just. Because I always knew it was. No, I always knew it was painful for you, and I know you were being very stoic, but I always felt like there was something pushing me to, like, tell you these things. And I would sometimes stop, you know, and my. My heart would say, keep telling her these things. My brain would say, she's not ready. Yeah. Or maybe I'm pushing too much on her. You know, the logical part, like, oh, Teresa, you're just being too pushy and you're, you know, a genealogy nerd.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker D: And.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker C: But then my heart kept saying, no, there's. For some reason, I have to tell her these things about her. Her dad's family that I found out. You know, it's like a piece of her. And. And I always could tell Ruby and I, you know, just reading from her, but I just had this sense, like, Mickey and very caring. And when I found out she took and stray animals and she'd help people.
• 1:10:52
  Speaker B: I thought, that is so Mickey, and that is Ruby. That's your connection with Ruby. Because like I said, she says that you guys are sisters. She's inspiring. She was. You were being inspired by her because she wants her granddaughter to know her. She wants to still have that relationship.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker C: Yes.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker B: So.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker C: Yes. It's just so random, you know? And then I came across this. I mean, I hadn't really been researching anything. And then I just. Because of my sister was the one who actually said, oh, let's go to Galveston, you know, for a little trip. And I'm like, sure. And then I thought, yeah, I wonder if we should drive by the street and see the house. I don't know if I could. It might be painful. But I started doing research again. And then I came across your podcast, and I sent it to Mickey. I listened to it. I'm like, mickey, you have to listen to this. And then when I like Ridgeway, South Carolina, that's only an hour from where Ruby was born.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker B: That's crazy.
• 1:11:42
  Speaker C: And, I mean, I know you came through the connection the other way, through the murderous family, but that Ruby was from that same area. There must have been some other.
• 1:11:51
  Speaker A: Other.
• 1:11:51
  Speaker C: Maybe some other thing going on, too that was helping with the momentum. I don't know.
• 1:11:56
  Speaker D: It was just amazing.
• 1:11:56
  Speaker B: 100%. Yeah. I think for sure, no one's more surprised than us. Like, truly. And just.
• 1:12:02
  Speaker C: Yes.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker B: Yeah. That. That is crazy. And. And even know the. The murderer's family, the present and the. The future aren't able to hold him accountable. His great, great, great grandmother is. And I think, you know, I want you to, like, if. If nothing else, she was the one to be like, hey, look into this family. Yeah. That is wrong. That's not okay. This wasn't handled all right, and I'm pissed about it. And just knowing that and bringing it all together was really. Yeah. Was. I'm grateful for her, you know, for her. Because if not for her, I don't know if we would have been able to find the story and connect you with Ruby.
• 1:12:47
  Speaker D: I know. Yes, I know. That is just. Yeah.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker C: It's just so amazing. Yeah. I'm very grateful.
• 1:12:52
  Speaker D: Yes. Yes.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker A: Well, we're grateful to you for your time and for reaching out and for helping us almost put a. Another bookend. A bookend on this story with your story. And it gives personally, it gives me hope knowing that Ruby's generations are thriving and living through. Yes. Living through and continuing to exhibit all of the love and positive things that she had to offer in her life. Right. So thank you both. You're just lovely ladies. Thank you so much.
• 1:13:30
  Speaker D: I feel like we know each other.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker B: I know, I know. I was just gonna say I'm sorry. You're not gonna get rid of us now. We're coming to visit it.
• 1:13:40
  Speaker A: So thank you.
• 1:13:42
  Speaker B: We love you guys.
• 1:13:44
  Speaker A: Keep in touch.
• 1:13:44
  Speaker B: Thank you so much.
• 1:13:46
  Speaker C: Thank you. Bye.
• 1:13:48
  Speaker B: And we're back. How do you feel about that interview?
• 1:13:53
  Speaker A: I feel, like, cathartic. Like, that whole conversation was somehow painful but cleansing.
• 1:14:04
  Speaker B: Agreed. I love them. You're never going to get rid of me. I'm gonna be like, what are you guys doing for Christmas? Let's hang out.
• 1:14:12
  Speaker A: Oh, gosh.
• 1:14:13
  Speaker B: What do you think about the legacy of not only Ruby, Zola and Georgie, but the legacy of Mickey and how she is moving through life with her bestie, Theresa? Like what? Like, it's just. To me, it's so clear that she is literally healing generational trauma.
• 1:14:41
  Speaker A: You know how I feel, quite honestly?
• 1:14:44
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:14:44
  Speaker A: I feel like we were meant to talk about this because I think this is happening all the time in families, and I think people don't recognize it, that patterns emerge and they don't recognize that it's ancestors coming through in different ways or spirit intervening in different ways or continuing on. And I think us shedding a light on what's happened in this family is hopefully powerful. To other people and hopefully resonates in a way where people out there can become more aware and more sensitive to the spirit around them. Them. Because our ancestors are a big part of our current existence, whether we acknowledge it or not. And hopefully this prompts other people to start looking into them and looking to their ancestors and communicating with them and talking with them. Because it can be a powerful experience.
• 1:15:44
  Speaker B: I love it. Let's end it there. The only thing I want to add is that Nancy Ruff Lawn Lawen. I don't know how to say her last name. I'm sorry, Nancy. I'm sorry about that. But you are a hero to me. Thank you so much for doing and collaborating with Ruby to get us to find this story and to reunite Mickey and Teresa with their loved ones on the other side.
• 1:16:09
  Speaker A: Absolutely. It's so unexpected to have a member of the perpetrators family coming through to us to right these wrongs. And so, so thank you.
• 1:16:22
  Speaker B: Thank you. So Jennifer, we're going to sign off, but I'm going to do so saying this. You guys, we love you. Share our podcast. We love seeing it grow. Please do more of that. Also, please, please think about supporting Common Mystics on Patreon whatever level you can. We do have fun at level four, though. I'm not going to lie. Also, you have to check out our new website, CommonMyStics.net follow us on all the socials at Common Mystics podcast. And I'm sorry I've been lacking lately, but dudes, it's been rough over here.
• 1:16:56
  Speaker A: Email us more on that in the detours.
• 1:16:59
  Speaker B: Yeah, more on that coming up. Also email us@commonmysticsmail.com I'm gonna get this right. They know. They know where to find us. We love you guys.
• 1:17:12
  Speaker A: Are you done?
• 1:17:12
  Speaker B: I think. I think I'm done.
• 1:17:13
  Speaker D: All right.
• 1:17:14
  Speaker A: Right. Love y'all.
• 1:17:15
  Speaker B: Bye. Love you.
• 1:17:16
  Speaker A: Bye.
• 1:17:17
  Speaker B: This has been a Common Mystics media production editing done by Yokai Audio, Kalamazoo, Michigan.