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Is Confidence Overrated? What Great Leaders Should Build Instead with Heather Jo Kennedy · Commander's Intent

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: Have you ever frozen in the key moment of making a critical decision?
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Whether it's in business or in life, it can cost you everything.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: Commander's Intent will teach and inspire you how to lead with clarity, courage, and purpose.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: So here's your host, retired Air Force Colonel, fighter pilot, and your leadership mentor, Derek Oak.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to another episode of Commander's Intent.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm grateful to have you guys all back with us.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: And as my guest today, I have Heather Joe Kennedy, and she is a Utah transplant.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: She's actually from Dallas, Texas.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: We could talk about that more later on, but she's very much a southerner in her mindset.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: And from what I've seen, how she treats people and how she talks to people, a lot more sirs and ma'ams than you generally hear in other parts of the country, which I really like.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: And she is an author, she is a speaker, she is a consultant coach.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, the way I came across Heather, it was on LinkedIn, and she had posted about coaching in the prisons.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, I've done that once, and I really loved it.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I really loved number one, you have a captive audience that aren't going anywhere.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: But number two, you have these people who really don't get, are not getting a leg up from society and they're not getting a lot of hope.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: And the recidivism rate is so high.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so I thought a lot about how do we fix that?
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: How do we make it so that these people can pay their debt to society, their price society, and come back and actually become contributing members of society in some way, shape, or form.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I saw her post on that, like, oh, that's exciting.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I reached out to her and then we started a conversation.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then I read her book and I really liked it, except there was I liked the whole thing, but there was one comment in her book that said confidence was overrated.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll get to that here in a little bit.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: And considering when I give a lot of my keynote speeches, the title is The Confident Leader.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: I thought this is gonna be a great conversation.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't think it's gonna go to blows.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it'll be a good discussion to really look at different perspectives of what confidence means and really how you get there, or if whether or not it is important or not.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, I'm gonna turn it over to Heather and let her do a quick introduction of herself and then we'll go from there.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that that was a great introduction.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_03: I appreciate that.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_03: And I appreciate hearing what really grabbed your attention too from that post from my work with the inmates.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_03: It is so rewarding.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_03: I love it.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_03: I love the work that I do there.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: My quickest introduction is I'm a productivity junkie, really.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_03: That's my world is productivity with individuals and teams.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_03: I like to say that I my work is enhancing performance, but without the drugs.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's less fun, but more sustainable, right?
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_03: And more practical.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_03: So I love helping people enhance their performance through productivity metrics.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_03: I have my book really covers six principles of productivity.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the one that you honed in on was identity is the bedrock of your impact.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_03: That's my second principle of productivity.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I do talk about confidence, and I think this is gonna be really interesting.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_03: I don't want people to think that I'm anti-confidence because it's absolutely undoubtedly an asset.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't think anyone would counter that.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_03: My stance on confidence, however, is that it's often a byproduct and thus something that we don't have a lot of control over.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_03: So, yes, it's an asset, but I think spending time on something that you don't have a lot of control over is counterproductive.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_03: So I look to other things that help influence confidence because of what a great asset it is, but things that you have a little more control over growth, balance, tenacity, clarity, support, just other things that you can help lift that confidence when you're in a moment of self-doubt and really needing it.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: No, thank you.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: I knew it wasn't going to be, like I said, a conflict.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: And as I read or listened to your book and you talked about your difference of opinion on confidence, I thought that's not really a difference of opinion.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a different way of stating it.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a different approach to confidence.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think both are important.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Could you quickly outline your six principles that you talked about in your book?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have to go through the reread the whole book, but just kind of talk about them so to kind of give people a framework.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, thanks for asking.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_03: So number one is gratitude feeds you and frees you.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_03: We begin with gratitude.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_03: Number two, identity is the bedrock of your impact.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_03: Number three, success hinges on having the right team.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_03: Number four, impact is only achieved through action.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_03: Number five, starters.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_03: That's the name of my book is for starters.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's really just kind of an elevated way to say leadership.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_03: Starters aim to give is principle number five.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_03: And then principle number six is finishing is a matter of clarity.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_03: So just a quick one-word recap is gratitude, identity, team, action, service, and then clarity.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think those are all, I like I said, I liked each of the components that you talked about.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: And because we mentioned it early on, talk about identity.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because in the world of today, a lot of times identity, you have identity politics, and the word is used, I think, incorrectly or in a negative way too often.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I really think knowing who you are and knowing where you fit is 90% of the battle.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: But explain what you mean by that.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it's interesting.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_03: You talk about different definitions.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_03: We all have our own definitions.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_03: And my definition of productivity is making the impact you were meant to make.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_03: So that really has to come before impact is understanding what it is that's unique about you and that impact that you're intended to make.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_03: So identity has to be so clear.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I know you mentioned I'm from the South, and I love that you picked up on the Sur and ma'am.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_03: That's a big plug for me, but I don't sound like I'm from the South.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I've had some serious identity crises.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_03: We moved to the West when I was just about to turn 15.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_03: And that's a pretty tender age, you know, for any individual.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_03: And I wasn't, you know, I said all the southern words, fixing and y'all.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_03: And uh 15 years old, I got a lot of looks and comments on the way that I spoke and the twang.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_03: And so I changed, I dropped it.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_03: And to date, it's one of my biggest regrets.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I've often questioned, do I just not have a strong identity?
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_03: Do I not have a strong personality?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_03: Because I've met people in the West who've been away from the South for years and still have that really strong accent.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_03: So it took a lot of really reflection and looking into who I am and why do I change and what is it that I'm meant to be?
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_03: So I think a lot of people go through this identity shifting and questioning.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_03: And that's okay.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_03: We're meant to change.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_03: Every human is meant to change.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_03: It's just how and when and where and why and with whom.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_03: We're definitely supposed to go through changes, but there are unbending aspects of our personality, of our identity that really should carry through our entire life.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what becoming the bedrack of your impact is really about discovering those unbendable aspects of who you are as a person and not the fluffy stuff like what color is your hair and how do you say the word y'all.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: I've having lived all over the country and in my time in the military, I spent close to 20 years in the South Southeast, you know, starting in Texas and then migrating, it seems like further and further south.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: If I get around Southerners and I'm there for five minutes, I'm really deep into it.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't do it intentionally, it just kind of happens.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think I'm kind of a chameleon when it comes to language.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: There are a couple that really stick with me.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: There are some southern expressions, you know, because I moved here from Georgia, and there are southern expressions that still come out of my mouth, and people say, What?
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: What'd you say by that?
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: What'd you mean by that?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so used to saying it, that's just the way I say it.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: But there are other things where I'm self-conscious about to my paradigm, little, like I said, I spent a lot of time in the South, actually, more time in the South than you, you know, if you at age 15, but I spent a lot of time in the military.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: So using military time and using military expressions and military acronyms, there are so many times where I'll say something, and even my wife of 35 years will say, What is that?
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: What did you say?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: What does that mean?
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, what do you mean?
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's that that's just that's how you maintain an aircraft, or I you know, and it will confuse you.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: Or sometimes I'm talking to somebody, or I'll write a text and I'll say 0800.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: And they'll say, What is 0800?
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's 8 o'clock.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: That way I don't have to write the AM.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, I I wrote it down yesterday.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: I was sitting in church and I wrote down on, I can't remember what it was, but I typed out 1430 or 230.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's how I always do my time because it's easier for me.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have to think about it.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a kid sitting next to me and he says, 14, what is 14?
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh, that's just still a paradigm.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: So then I get made fun of for that.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I tried to accommodate and try to change, but there's some things that are just so ingrained.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not who I am, to your point.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: If I never utter y'all again, it's okay.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: I can still say I lived in the South and I loved living in the South.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: If I never say fix in again, my English teacher daughter will probably pat me on the back for that.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: But if I do say it, it's also okay.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't really, that's not really what defines who I am.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I know as a kid, you like you talk about being a 15-year-old, you're so worried about self-conscious about am I fitting in?
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: Do I have a place on this team and in this environment?
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that's tough to stomach.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: I have you know four kids that we bounced around a lot, and they really struggled with.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think my oldest when she started high school, or when she was a sophomore in high school, it was her fifth school in six years.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so there was a lot of identity, you know, mistaken identity, who am I?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: What do I represent for her?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: And she really struggled with that.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of kids do when they're having to bounce around.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so, how do I define myself?
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: Is it by the language I use, by how I act, by what kind of a person I am, by what my focus is, all of those things.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: Anything else you want to say when you're talking about identity?
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think it's so important.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, and I think, I mean, if I may, I think people we're all on a different scale here.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_03: Some people are very, very sure of who they are.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_03: And then there's us, you know, like you and I are a little bit more chameleon-like.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I think for those who struggle with their identity, look to strengths, your strengths, your weaknesses, the things that you value and the things that you don't value.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_03: And those all will point to your identity.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_03: And that's why we begin with gratitude, honestly, because I think the things that you really, really value point more to your identity than you realize.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_03: And that's one thing that's really been rewarding about my work in with the inmates, the prison inmates, is that they know exactly what they value.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_03: And we don't let their incarceration define them.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_03: We let their values define them and the things that they're really good at, their gifts and talents, and the things that they are not as good at, the things that they don't care about.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_03: That's where we really tap into who they are.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because you say you know they know exactly what they value.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I think if I could put words in your mouth, it's probably because they've had everything else taken away from them.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so they've had to sit back and say, what do I really if I could have one thing again in my life, what would it be?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: If I can control one thing, what would it be?
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: And when we have this world of plenty, we have so much around us, that's sometimes tough to recognize.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: What really matters to me?
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: What's the most important thing in my life?
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so we talked about identity and we started the show by talking about confidence and what a confident what confidence means.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Explain to yourself or explain to us what you mean by confidence is overrated, or confidence isn't as important as we think it is, or confidence doesn't come first.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: I can't remember exactly how you said it, but you'll remember and you can explain it.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_03: I I do.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_03: I say confidence is overrated.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_03: That's how I say it.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_03: So you nailed that, and it does stand out.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_03: Because we emphasize confidence so much, and it's it's just this thing that we're always trying to get more of, thinking that it's going to change.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_03: And we waste time and energy trying to obtain confidence rather than looking at it as a byproduct, which I really believe it is.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's contingent on our performance, our environment, who we have around us, what we're doing.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_03: And so, therefore, it, you know, really operates more as a byproduct.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_03: Again, like I can't emphasize enough that it is extremely valuable.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_03: We just don't have as much control over it as we think.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_03: And so instead of looking for confidence, don't waste your time trying to grasp this thing that's really intangible.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_03: Instead, look to growth, look at balance.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's something that we do not spend enough time talking about.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_03: Really high performers in any industry, in any lane, people that are at the their very peak performance, often these really high performers aren't very balanced.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's not very sustainable.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_03: So rather than expending all of this energy into one aspect of our life, think about all the different aspects of your life: social, spiritual, physical, mental, you know, all these different aspects of your life.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_03: Rather than just really putting everything into one, redistribute that a little bit.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_03: Create balance, and you might pull a little bit of performance metrics away from that one lane, but your performance will be so much more sustainable if you're looking at balance.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_03: And that is something that you have control over.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_03: And then, you know, ironically, that leveling up of your balance will increase your confidence.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, as you're sitting there talking, I'm asking myself, what does why is confidence so important to me?
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: Why have I used that word?
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I've gone through that quite a bit already, especially when I saw, you know, confidence is overrated in your book.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: But I think we we agree almost exactly with confidence that confidence is a byproduct.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: That if you're chasing confidence, then you're chasing the wrong thing, probably.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: Confidence is a byproduct.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: What I talk about is that confidence comes with number one, you know where you're going.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: Number two, you feel trusted to get there and to act to get there.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then the last thing is not if you make mistakes, but when you make mistakes, you have a good system.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's okay to make course corrections, to realign yourself with where you're going.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because I don't care what your course is, what your goal is, you're gonna make mistakes.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna fail at it at some point.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: Failing is all part of the process.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: What's not part of the process is accepting failure or thinking that it's a conclusion.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because failure, we make mistakes.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's okay as long as we have a bias towards the right action, the right direction, then and we constantly are realigning ourselves, either individually or as an organization.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think where great confidence comes, and I talk about really an explosive growth, potentially explosive growth in an organization, it's where you have trust up and down the chain of command, where the team trusts the leader, trusts the team.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: So the the team trusts the leader that they know where they're going and they've charted a course that matters, and then the leader trusts the team with the how to get there and the day-to-day actions to get there.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: So the leader's always looking forward because he trusts his team.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: So he's confident in his team that they have his back and they're carrying the team in the right direction, and they trust him that he's looking out for them and he's going in the right direction and he's charting a positive vision.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that when they do make mistakes, it's not a criticism, it's a debrief.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a criticism, it's a realignment.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a shaming or it's not a personal attack.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's a okay, this didn't go exactly the way we wanted it to.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: We didn't reach our goals sometimes by a little bit, sometimes by a lot, or sometimes we did reach our goals, but we need to adjust our goals because we can do better.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: You do a debrief and you do a realignment.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: And by doing that, everybody has confidence that we're gonna get to where we want to go, that we're going to accomplish the goals that we wanted from the very beginning.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I think what you're touching on there too is team confidence, right?
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_03: And it's difficult to curate confidence, but something that you can curate is your team.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_03: And if you curate a really good team, and you gave an awesome example of a coach, a coach is someone who rewards progress over perfection, right?
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_03: Effort over achievement.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_03: Teams that, I mean, this is something that I do.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a certified team performance coach, and we can go into my team background, but I do, I work with a lot of teams, and that's what we look for.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_03: We can establish a better team confidence than we can just a personal confidence because it's contingent on this whole system of working together.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_03: It's a lot about how there's really only three people that we need on a team in order to be successful.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_03: You know, the world really is playing up the importance of quantity.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_03: And it is not about quantity, it's about quality.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_03: You need three people.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_03: You need a coach, you need a teammate, and you need fans.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_03: And that's really it.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's what I work to do is help people recognize the role that they play and the role that the influencers play in their life.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_03: That's what we have to do.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_03: We have to curate this team of influencers in order to be successful as individuals or as teams.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: I wrote that down.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: I really like that.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: I was thinking okay, when am I a coach?
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: When am I a teammate?
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: And when am I a fan?
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think for each of us, you're probably right about this.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: I can't remember.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: It changes depending on where we sit.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: Are we the coach?
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Are we the teammate, or are we the fan?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then how we're successful at each of those can be very, very different.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_03: And there's so many different applications of the coach, teammate, fan philosophy.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I I did a presentation for an organization, a company, and we talked about how the company as a unit, as a system, is a coach in their industry.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's a tech industry.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_03: How are you coaching your customers?
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_03: How are you showing up as a teammate to your customers?
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_03: So you can see it really applies in a lot of different angles, but you have to understand how it applies to you first and then implement it outward.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_03: So who are my coaches, teammates, and fans?
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_03: And then you recognize what characteristics in each one of those individuals is important to you.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_03: And what's a good coach?
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_03: What's a bad coach?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_03: And then you apply that outward.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_03: Who am I coaching?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: Who am I showing up as their teammate?
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_03: And how am I showing up?
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_03: And then who can I cheer on and make a difference as a fan?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think that what's really sticking with me as you say that, because you've kind of talked about what your roles are.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: When am I, and I said this just earlier, when am I a coach?
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: And when am I a teammate?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: And when am I a fan?
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes I know for a fact for me, sometimes I think I'm the coach and I should just shut up and be the fan.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: Or not, you know, if I should be a vocal fan or just a supportive fan.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I think I'm a teammate and I am just a fan, or I need to be a coach.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so we get those roles mixed up.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: I know I get those roles mixed up, just putting it in that paradigm.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: I get those roles mixed up and I play the wrong role when I'm needed to do something else.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's a game changer.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's a game changer in relationships.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_03: I tell people this is the best partner or marital advice you're gonna get all days.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_03: Like figure out this role and when you're and one of my favorite communication quotes is Thomas Erickson says, communication happens on the listener's term.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_03: You don't get to decide if you're being the coach, the teammate, or the fan.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's the other person in the relationship that gets to decide.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_03: So clarifying those roles, my husband and I do this all the time, you know, just like, uh, you know what, honey, I do not need a coach right now.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_03: And just that quick communication puts us in the right lane so that the expectations are clear, you know, and it's actually super productive because I can go to him and say, you know what?
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_03: I need a coach right now.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_03: And it puts me in this frame of mind to receive his criticism and feedback or constructive whatever.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_03: And so I'm not defensive because I've given him that role.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_03: That's the thing about a coach and a teammate, and you having spent time in the military, know this better than anyone.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_03: Those are privileged roles.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_03: You have to be invited into that space.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_03: Anyone can be a fan to anybody, that's not a privileged role, but it is a privilege to be considered someone's teammate.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_03: You have to take that seriously.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_03: And you have to have an invitation to occupy that role of teammate or fan.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_03: Don't do it without the invitation.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_03: That just makes you a jerk.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: Probably sit here and think of a couple of times when I've been that jerk instead of the teammate when I thought I was a teammate.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, are you a parent?
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, you have for sure.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, you know, I don't know.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think you told me your youngest is 12, and I can't remember how old you're old, but all mine are 20 and above.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I often realize that I'd forgot to make the shift.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: They don't need a coach, they need a fan.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that's it.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they'll come to me, they want me to my help, they want me on their team, but they don't need a coach.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I need to stop talking, give them a hug, encourage them and let them know that I believe in them and trust them, and that's it.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's a tough, sometimes that's a tough pill to swallow as a parent when you've been doing it all or you think you've been doing it all for X number of years, and all of a sudden, they don't need you.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: They still need you, but they need you in a different capacity.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: And yet you still want to play your old role.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's I'm guilty of that a lot.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, it's a difficult but necessary shift.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_03: Doesn't mean you can't be their coach down the road, but they'll trust you more down the road if you learn how to occupy those other roles for sure.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: You said something about it's up to the listener, and I have found that to be completely like that's the most important thing I take out of this entire discussion is if you've if you forget that it's totally up to the listener, then you're gonna say the wrong thing at the wrong time, or you're gonna waste your breath and you're not gonna say anything that everything you say is gonna fall on deaf ears because the listener hasn't made a decision.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Or if you're the listener and you have not if you're listening with the intent to respond, or if you're not listening, then the conversation is not gonna get to where it needs to go.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not gonna be as productive as you need it to be.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_03: Not productive and there's no impact at all.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, it's all just wasted.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and I I'm gonna correct you on that.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: There will be impact, but you're probably not gonna like Yeah.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's probably not gonna like the impact.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: I speak from experience on that one.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: I know that it can be negative sometimes.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: So what's next?
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: So you wrote The starters.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have any other book, you know, on in the works or are you just kind of cultivating that?
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I'm glad I can answer that question in the affirmative because we haven't talked about that.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_03: But I do, I am working on a book that's strictly about teams.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_03: I don't even have to have a couple working titles, but I don't want to say it wrong.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_03: But I do feel like there's so much depth to this concept.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_03: So it's really a book that's going to be based off principle three in my first book.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_03: Success Hinges on Having the Right Team.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_03: And it's yeah, it's going to be a lot from my experience growing up, but also a lot from my work as a team performance coach.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: I look forward to what what kind of timeline are you looking at?
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_03: Uh we're not there yet.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_03: No promises.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: I won't hold you to anything.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what I found is, I mean, I've always been a writer.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: Whether it's good or bad, I always put stuff on paper or on the keyboard.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: And when I start thinking about a topic, like when I wrote my last book, I thought, I don't know if I have enough to fill a book.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, my first book I wrote in 2017, kind of in coordination with my dad.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: It was in coordination with my dad.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: I did all the writing.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: And 160 pages, I think that's about what it was.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it was, it felt like pulling teeth to get 160 pages out of that book.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I sat down, I said, I think I want to document what I'm talking about here with the confident leader and what confident leadership looks like.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I started writing.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I don't know if I have enough material.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then by the end, I realized I had about at least three books.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'd kept stuff out, but I had about three books worth of material and ideas, and the book ended up longer than I initially intended.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's close to 250 pages, and longer than I initially intended.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't include a lot of stuff because your mind starts going.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're writing from experience, good and bad, and if you've done your research, there's so much information out there.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that's part of the creative process of writing that I have enjoyed.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: I hated putting the structure together.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: I hated deciding what the outline looks like.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: And going back and forth, my daughter was my editor, the English teacher, and setting it up in a coherent way to where people aren't going to get lost.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: That was real work.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: But the actual just vomiting on the page and coming up with ideas, once you get going, I found that it was hard to stop.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: It was hard to confine what I was saying to make sure that the idea was succinct.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know, I already have I have another book also in work right now, but I don't know if that's the last one or if it's just the the third of 15.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think it's that the numbers that high, but I found that I like the process of writing.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like the process of structuring.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: I like the process of writing.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_03: I I had a similar experience, and I think it points to, you know, when you're making the impact you're meant to make, when you really are in that correct lane of identity, then it flows.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_03: Like you said, you're just vomiting 250 pages worth because that's your expertise.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_03: That's right where you're supposed to be.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_03: That's the difference that you are supposed to be making, and you can go all day long.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's kind of like a flow state.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I've found that there were parts about writing my book that were laborious.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_03: And it's because that's not my identity.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not great at that part of it.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_03: But when it comes to my gifts and where I'm supposed to make an impact, I could write all day long.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_03: And that's really how the second, well, this is actually going to be my third book, was born is I had so much content about teams and teamwork.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_03: And that was really supposed to only be one chapter.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_03: So I really had to intentionally weed out what wasn't supporting my main thesis in that book.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_03: And so now I've got all these weeds that I'm trying to organize into a new book.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: So it'll be fine.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: I really like what you said earlier about knowing your lane.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, when you find your place, it just comes out.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I hadn't really, I guess I have said that to myself.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I quit my job a number of years ago.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: I said, I'm not supposed to be here.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't what I'm supposed to be doing.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: When I first retired from the Air Force, I felt like I should do writing, but then I had to pay bills.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then I felt like I I wanted to try my hand at a couple different things, but then I had to pay bills.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so I did try my hand at a couple of different things, and finally, I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing, but I'm not sure what that looks like.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: And as I started writing this last book in particular, I realized this if I have anything to share, it's this.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know why my experiences are so unique.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: I consider myself a student of leadership, and I always have been.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: I've always been an observer of people of good and bad, and I've always reveled in the idea of watching somebody and how they tick and how they make an organization work and how they put it all together.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of the lessons, and I think as a student, a lot of the lessons in the book and the examples in the book are my own good and bad examples, things that I did right, things that I did wrong, and the hard lessons that I learned in going through the theories on leadership that I was developing throughout my time.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that's what's so meaningful about it for me is that it really is are my lessons.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: And as I've talked to audiences, and I think you probably, like I said, I really love what you said about finding your place.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: I get excited about it.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I sometimes I ask, am I getting more excited than I need to?
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a book.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a thought.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's just there are thousands and thousands of leadership books.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: Should I really get that excited about it?
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think to your point, is if that's my message, if that's what I should be sharing, and that's what's really going to make the most impact to people around me, then yes, I should get excited about it.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I should write about it, and I should keep pressing on it and write another book if it if that's what it takes.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I I appreciate you putting it in that in those terms.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you you bet.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, don't discount that passion.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_03: I I ask myself all the time, you know, is it this unrealistic?
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_03: But when I'm, for example, like when I'm on stage, I have so much energy.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: I call it a speaker's high.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_03: You know, like when I'm done, I'm not exhausted.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_03: I am ready to go again.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_03: But when I'm working with the team and training, I can like all day long.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_03: When you hit that, when you hit that impact, you that passion, you'll feel it.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_03: Don't discount it.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_03: Don't think that, well, like, you know, is this am I getting too excited about this?
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_03: Because I think that excitement is just your indicator.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_03: It's validating that you are in the space that you're supposed to be in.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes you'll feel that when you're on the right path.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_03: Like maybe, and I'm not saying this definitively, but maybe writing is your path to the impact that you're supposed to make.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe writing isn't the end, I guess is what I'm trying to say.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe writing is just the path to the end.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_03: It might just be the means.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_03: And that's why you're feeling this pull and this energy with your writing work, is because you're on the right path.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: I hope so.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because I counsel with a lot of youth and I think about my own career, I think about the things that I've done, and you probably see it.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if any of your kids have been this way of what do I do when I grow up?
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: What degree do I get?
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna get a psychology degree because I don't know what else to do with myself.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna get a sociology degree.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, just pick something where somebody's gonna pay you unless you have a path.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: Unless, and I tell my kids, work 60 hours a week in your 20s and early 30s, and you'll get to that path sooner.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: And also you'll set yourself up financially and intellectually way better than if you plod along at 30 to 40 hours a month with the rest of the crowd.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because and that can be work, it can be you work, it can be work in school, it can be just school, whatever it is.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: You need to put that much effort into it if you don't already know what your path is.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: And if you already know what your path is, like I was all I was always gonna be a pilot.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: I was always gonna be a fighter pilot.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, there was a time when that didn't look clear and it almost crushed me of what do you mean I'm not gonna fly fighter aircraft?
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I was supposed to do.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I'm that's what I meant to do.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: But most people don't have that.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: Most people don't have that clarity of where they're supposed to be and what they're supposed to do.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean they're broken.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean that they don't have an identity, to your point.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: It means that maybe that's not where their impact is gonna be in the J O B, in the specific career field.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's not what really matters to them.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: You can be very, very successful and very, very impactful being a plumber or being a school janitor, being a school teacher, or being an accountant.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody's gonna say, I'm so excited to be an accountant, other than the paycheck sometimes, but you can make a big difference in somebody's life.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe job isn't where you're making a difference.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: You're making a difference in other realms.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we put too much emphasis on occupation for sure.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_03: Because that that's not identity.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes it can be a big part of our identity, but I wouldn't say even the majority of the time that's true.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_03: I think the majority of the time our identity is really defined by our values.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think you're right.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: I look at even myself, you talk about my writing, and writing is something that I've cultivated for a lot of years.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I wrote a lot in college, I wrote a lot in and have written a lot since then professionally, and then just as a hobby, whether it's posts or articles or now books.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not necessarily I've I've asked myself often, is that my path or is that just a means to an end?
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: Is that the way, you know, because when I work in companies, I still have a responsibility to communicate well.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: I have still have a responsibility to do my job well and to use the leadership skills that I believe very strongly in.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't know, but is it supposed to be as a writer?
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: Is it supposed to be as a speaker?
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: Is it supposed to be as a consultant?
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes that job doesn't really matter.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: What matters is the content.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: What matters is how you do it and how you how you apply yourself.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes the job does matter.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes there are people like see, like I said, me, I was gonna be a fighter pot.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: There are other people who are gonna be doctors, who are gonna be nurses, gonna be the school teachers, and good on them, and they are so lucky to have that clarity of path.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not always what matters.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_03: I'm so glad you say that word clarity.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, if you know what path you're supposed to take, you definitely have a leg up.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_03: I feel some days, I mean, I'm coming up on 50 and I'm like, am I sure what my path is?
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_03: Am I sure what I want to be when I grow up?
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_03: And so that clarity, man, I envy it.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_03: But it's important to, I mean, we're talking about paths.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes you have to start down a path before you know what's wrong.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, I think a lot of times that's the case.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what I try and tell my kids and other people is like, just move.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_03: The movement is what matters.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_03: So, so start down a path, but don't be, I think prideful might be the right word.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like you have to have the humility to know, to be able to say, you know what, this isn't my path.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_03: Now, regardless, you're gonna have obstacles.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_03: If you're on the right path, you're gonna have obstacles.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_03: So that clarity comes in so handy to know when to push through.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_03: Like this is my path.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_03: I know it.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_03: I have to push through because that will, you know, again, like to where we can began with confidence.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_03: That gives you that the clarity is what gives you the confidence to push through those obstacles.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_03: But when you're on a wrong path and there's an obstacle or there's this moment of, you know what, I don't think this is the right path for me, you have to have the humility to say, it's okay to step back and choose another path.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_03: So there's a place for tenacity and there's a place for saying it's okay to quit.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_03: And that all hinges on clarity.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_03: I think teens again to help with that clarity, right?
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_03: Like you can, I just remember in my younger years when I was headed down a path that was a good path.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_03: I had vetted this path and I had invested in it.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I had a teammate, quote unquote, who said, Heather, that's not your path.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_03: And this is a vetted teammate.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_03: This is a teammate that had served me my whole life.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm so thankful that I had the humility to accept that that teammate knew me better than I knew myself.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I was able to say, okay, I trust you as a teammate, and I chose a different path.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_03: And looking back now, I can see that teammate was right.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_03: So, so that, you know.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's a tough one.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that that says a lot about you, your willingness to step back and say, I should probably listen to that person because I know that I am guilty of you could call it tenacity, you call it pig-headedness, you could call it a I've gotta finish what's in front of me, you know, kind of a mindset.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: I have a lot of that.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: I it's like I don't want a bunch of hanging chads, a bunch of uncompleted tasks.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: So even if I'm not supposed to be on this path forever, I have to finish what I started.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: I have to finish this part of the project, otherwise, I'll be a failure.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not often the case, it's not always the case.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's the case, you know.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: Tenacity is a great skill, and tenacity is a great blessing, and sometimes just dog determination is what we need, especially when it's on tasks that we don't like.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes the humility to listen to other voices, to listen to other people and say, Ah, I think you're right.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think I'm not gonna do that.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think I am gonna step away.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a great skill to be able to step away or to be able to stick with something, especially in the face of failure, when it doesn't look like it's going in the right direction.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't look like you're heading in the right direction.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, is this really what I'm supposed to be doing?
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: And am I gonna spend more time on this or do I need to shift gears and go someplace else?
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that that tenacity is a great asset until it's not, right?
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: Until you're on the ask you one question that we just what it was it like, you know, your dad was an NFL quarterback, and what was it like and how did that shape you?
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I grew up with a my dad was a four-star general and you know, very high achiever, and very in every circle I was in, everybody knew my dad, and everybody thought very highly of my dad.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I really appreciated that.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: But that sometimes can be a burden or it can be a challenge.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's not in no way am I complaining about that, but it does affect how you approach problem solving, it does affect how you approach perceptions, and sometimes it drives, because I've seen this before, sometimes it drives you into doing something that you don't want to do.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: You go down a path because that's what you're supposed to do.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just wanted your opinion on that.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: I would say a Dallas Cowboy quarterback is way more famous than a general officer in the Air Force, but it's a similar kind of a circumstance.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_03: Well, our past shapes us, and that's why there's a whole that's why therapy is a thing.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_03: That's why we have therapists, is because our past shapes us, and mine definitely did for me in a very similar way.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_03: My dad was the Dallas Cowboys quarterback, Danny White.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think did we mention that?
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: We did not.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_03: So Danny White played for the Dallas Cowboys and very successful there.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_03: And that's why I grew up in Texas.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_03: So I was a little girl.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_03: He was playing, he retired when I was, I think, 12.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_03: And so it absolutely shaped me.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_03: People, like you said, people associate you with your family often.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_03: And it's interesting, I've gotten this question my whole life.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_03: What was it like growing up, Danny White's daughter?
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I've not always answered that to the satisfaction of the asker.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_03: Because for me, I knew nothing different, was what it was.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_03: I felt like we were a very normal family.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_03: But in hindsight, I recognized that the difference wasn't really the difference was in the way other people treated us.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_03: That was the difference.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_03: My dad was my dad.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_03: He mowed our lawn, he took us camping, you know, he made me do my chores.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_03: But I recognized that other people treated me differently.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_03: And so growing up, I we built walls.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I know I did.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_03: I built walls.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_03: And this is the premise of every keynote I give almost is it doesn't take a village.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_03: It really doesn't take a village.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_03: I do I do not agree with that phrase.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_03: I think it takes a team, and that's the whole premise of what I speak and train on.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_03: And it's the premise of my new book.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's gonna be, you know, something along the lines of it takes a team, not a village, because you can't only count on the people that you can trust, again to your military background, the people who occupy that space of coach, teammate, or fan.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_03: I learned not to trust people.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_03: Everybody wanted to get close to me to get to my dad.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we couldn't even go out in public because they didn't see a family having a good time.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_03: They saw a celebrity and they wanted his autograph.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, I got special treatment at school because I was Danny White's daughter.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_03: And at the time, thankfully, I didn't realize I was getting special treatment because of him.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_03: But now looking back, I'm like, oh yeah, I probably wasn't the principal's favorite kid.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_03: He just knew who my dad was.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_03: So it really made me not trust people, but helped me lean into what are the qualities of the people that I am okay to trust.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_03: What are the red flags and what are the green flags of people who really value me for me?
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_03: And I've learned to really dissect that and understand the characteristics and traits of people that will be beneficial to me and how to be that kind of person to influence others.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_03: So it's absolute absolutely shaped me, but also it's really become kind of a business platform for me to use this lane that I've traveled down that very few people have exposure to, not to mention all of the lessons in teamwork from being a Dallas Cowboys kid.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_03: You know, legendary coach Tom Landry was on the phone with my dad multiple times a week, and those lessons absolutely trickle down, you know, as I've maintained this close relationship with my dad and all of the lessons and wisdom and experience that he has to impart.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_03: So it feels a little bit obligatory, honestly, to share these messages that are a little bit contrary to what the world is trying to teach us right now that more people in your village is better.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_03: That's not the case.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_03: Not the case at all.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad I asked that because I loved your answer.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: I've thought a lot about me growing up.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: When I went to the Air Force Academy, people knew that my dad was in the very first graduating class, and he was one of three generals, you know, who had graduated from three or four generals who had graduated from the academy at that point in his career.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so I am immediately, they're like, Well, we know why you're here.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: You got in because your dad, you got in because of this.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then I remember I go to my first squad and they're like, well, you're guaranteed to make at least colonel.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: And yet, in some aspects, it can work that way.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: You do get benefits.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think of my leadership journey and all the things that I've learned and all of my ideas, they started by watching my parents.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: They started by watching my parents in those kind of circumstances and situations.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I grew from those circumstances and situations.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: So for me to push it away and say, no, I have nothing to do with my dad, that's disrespectful.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not giving thanks.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's not showing gratitude for what I was given.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: I was put in the family that I have, I was given the parents that I have, and I was very unique, you know, in that sense, just like you were unique.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: You were the daughter of a professional quarterback, a professional athlete.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: So that puts you in a small percentage of society to learn very specific things and to have very specific opportunities.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: So then what are you doing with that?
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: And what can you do with that?
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: And how can you impact other people?
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because I learned so much from the people that I spent time around who were leaders with my dad and of my dad.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: I learned so much from them.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if I was given extra opportunities when I got into the military because my dad didn't take my tests.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: He's not the one who passed my exams in college, and he's not the one who passed my flight exams in flight school.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: I had to do all that.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes I didn't do very well, and I was rewarded accordingly for those things.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: I had to do those things, but my mindset and my aperture, how I viewed the world, did come from my dad and did come from both of my parents.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it made a big difference for me, and I'm grateful for the difference that it made for me.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I do have a responsibility.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have a responsibility to follow exactly in his footsteps and to maintain the Air Force celebrity in my case, maintain the Air Force celebrity and think that's important because that's not important.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: But my identity as a person, who I am, that is from all of that.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I have to be grateful for and use all of that and apply it in whatever situation I find myself in.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it sounds like you have the same exact mindset of your dad was a pro-quarterback, you didn't know if they helped you, but you just saw him as a great father who happened to also be receiving leadership and opportunities from some amazing people and opportunities.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_03: That influence is, you know, it's maybe not a direct he landed you the job, but indirectly, he was probably a lot of the reason why you did choose the path and have the success that you did.
• 42:11
  unknown: Yeah.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_00: You're exactly right.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, in my dad questioned me going into the Air Force because he didn't ha think I had the right mindset.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: I was a little bit casual in my approach to life as a high schooler.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I went to the Air Force Academy and I did fine there.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: I have three brothers, and all four of us went into the Air Force.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: I would say the two younger brothers and I went into the Air Force very casual about things, yet we're the only two who went to the Air Force Academy, the more I would say, the more committed route.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: My two older brothers went to another school, but they still went to the Air Force, served till retirement.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: And my dad would have never thought that's what we would do.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: But it was part of our paradigm.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: And he didn't push any of us.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, if he pushed at all, it may have been in the opposite direction because he didn't love his job, but because he didn't want us to do things for him.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: He wanted us to do things because we thought that's what was right.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that made all the difference for each of us.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think we followed it in part because of, I think he properly applied the coaching teammate and fan approach to things when he was helping us make decisions.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_03: So good.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_03: That's so good.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_03: And that's very similar to the experience that I've had.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_03: My dad didn't he did not ever anticipate that I would be a speaker or a team leader or anything like that, you know.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_03: So and he has had I have had a little bit of pushback from him, but as a coach, just like you said, he stepped into that role.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_03: And then once he saw me in action, he's my biggest fan.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_03: So it's like they have to make sure that you're doing it for the right reasons and and really again making that impact that you're meant to make.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_03: And once they do, they automatically will just fill that role of fan.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_03: Good, a good teammate, right?
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_03: A good parent, a good influencer will do that.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Heather.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have any closing remarks or closing thoughts that you want to share with us?
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_03: No, I I don't think so.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_03: I think we've covered a ton.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_03: It's yeah, this is a great conversation.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_03: I appreciate you asking all the right questions.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: I think you know, both of us have very similar thoughts on confidence for sure to begin with.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_03: Where we thought we were on opposing sides.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_03: I think we've come to a consensus there.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_03: And just the things that really matter, I think we've covered it.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate that.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: For everyone who joined us today, thanks for being here.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: If you have want to reach out to Heather, you can reach her at go ahead and say your website.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_03: HJ Kennedy.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_03: So I know it's a mouthful.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_03: So just my two first initials, Heather Joe, hjkennedy.com.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, fantastic.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to reach out directly to her, then do that.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: Or if you need to if you need to reach her through me, you can go to asteritnow.com and I'll make the connection.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: If you have any questions or any suggestions for future shows, please reach out to me and we'll have a conversation about what that looks like.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like, subscribe, please comment.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate any feedback, and we'll see you next time on Commander's Intent.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: So that's it for today's episode of Commander's Intent Podcast.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: Head on over to Apple Podcasts iTunes or wherever you listen and subscribe to the show.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: One lucky listener every single week that posts a review on Apple Podcasts or iTunes will be entered in the grand prize drawing to win a$25,000 private exclusive leadership coaching package with Derek Oaks himself.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: So head on over to Commanders Inten Podcast.com and pick up a free copy of Derek's Leadership Guide and join us on the next episode.