Latest / Mythmakers / Sidecast - LOTR: An Author's Journey, Book 2 Chapter 5

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Sidecast - LOTR: An Author's Journey, Book 2 Chapter 5 · Mythmakers

• 0:00
  Are you really buying a car online on Auto Trader right now?
• 0:02
  Really, I can get super specific with dealer listings and see cars based on my budget.
• 0:07
  You can really have a delivered.
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  Or pick it up.
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  Mommy, look!
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  Kid is walking up the slide.
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  Really?
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  Auto Trader.
• 0:13
  Buy your car online, really.
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  Hello and welcome to MythBakers.
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  Mythmakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy creatives
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  brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy.
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  My name is Julian Adolfoading.
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  Now, this is one of our side cars where we take an author's journey through the Lord of the Rings.
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  And we have reached Chapter 5 in Book 2 of the Fellowship of the Ring.
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  This will probably be a chapter well known to almost everybody listening to this because it is
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  the bridge of Casadum, the showdown between Gandalf and the Balrog.
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  And it is a brilliantly written chapter.
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  I'd just like to point out it's also one of the shorter ones.
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  So before the last chapter we looked at, journey into the dark, was an hour and a half or so
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  of audio time.
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  This is far, far less.
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  And it's a sort of little almost like a perfect little miniature of how to write action scenes.
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  As we will see, as we go on.
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  Even within a short chapter, though, we have four sections.
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  The first part is preoccupied with the book that they find in the Chamber of
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  Mazarbull. It's the broken up volume of which accounts, which is an account of the
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  the dwarf kingdom or attempt to reestablish a kingdom in the minds of Boria.
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  Then there's a section on a sort of skirmish in that room within a scape down some stairs.
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  Then there is the big special bit where we have the bridge over the abyss,
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  a Gandalf facing down the Balrog.
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  And then we got a very short section at the end, which is the aftermath.
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  Another thing just to point out before we get going is this chapter is very tidally
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  from the point of view of Frodo all the way through.
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  We've been seeing, as we've taken Arthur's journey, that sometimes we get other points of
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  you popping in in the idea that Frodo and Bilbo, or Frodo mainly, is compiling this
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  after the end of the journey. He brings in other people's points of view.
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  This one, you'll see, is pretty much all in his point of view.
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  So, for a very consequential chapter, it's interesting and an excellent choice to start it in
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  silence. The Elegiac lament for Barlin, where we finished the last chapter, continues as you
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  pick up the next one with them standing around and acknowledging, like a two-minute silence,
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  acknowledging that Barlin and all those who are with him have gone.
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  And then it moves into a search of the chamber.
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  And I like the way this is written, because if you follow it, it is like you are looking through,
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  presumably, Frodo's eyes. It goes from point to point, from the weapons and the bodies,
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  or the skeletons that are lying there, to the empty ironbound chest, which have already been
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  raided. But the one thing that Orcs had no use for was this replica records, which they have
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  tried to destroy, but has lingered in a fragmented form. Now, just a little side note here that,
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  of course, Tolkien knew well the state of all manuscripts. That was his job. He would know the
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  close shave that the poem bear wolf had with fire, for example. So he is well used to dealing
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  professionally with fragments. So he probably had extra fun thinking up what kind of fragmented form
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  this book of records could be in. It also is odd here in that they know they have to escape,
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  but Gandalf is delaying. And actually Gandalf asks himself the question a little bit later on,
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  why am I delaying? I think one of the answers is the attachment that he has to the walls and to
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  barling. He doesn't want to know what happens to them. So even though it may have made more sense
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  just to run for it, he is lingering to find out. And of course, it means that they also find out
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  some very useful tips as to what is happening. The fact that the Orcs are in the mind and that kind
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  of thing. So the delay has a purpose, even though it may have had other negative consequences.
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  He doesn't need to stay to know, I suppose, that the Orcs have been there because he's got the evidence
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  of the weapons around him, but he is picking up the fuller story from the book.
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  Now, just want to point out, again, this from a, if you're writing yourself,
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  an author's point of view, the use of a partial manuscript is an excellent clever way of summarising
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  the events of the past without going into excruciating detail. Imagine if he had found a pristine copy
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  of all the years of the dwarf settlement. He wouldn't be able to summarise things like
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  Barlin's death, the loss of different dwarves to the watcher in the deeps, and then the final
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  encounter. If it hadn't been this kind of partly burned, hard to read manuscript. So it's doing two
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  jobs here. It's giving a sense of the damage that was done to the colony. And this is the only
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  thing left to tell of the presence there, but it also means that we quickly get the headlines.
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  There is just one of those things that's always bothered me to send in answers if you've got that,
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  which is it's clear that they are there for at least five years. Now, the fellowship have been
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  walking from Rivendale for a couple of weeks. I wonder why no one sent word. Nobody seems to know
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  that they had successfully set up there. It does seem odd that why didn't they say what was
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  happening? Why didn't they send messages? But anyway, we'll go with the fantasy that nobody
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  knew about them. Somebody may have an answer to that. Some of the phrases from the manuscript are
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  wonderfully used because they then emerge out of the book and are picked up by the members of
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  the fellowship when they hear the same things happening again. And we've got the ominous drums,
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  drums in the deep, which is a phrase which is like the drum beat all the way through this chapter.
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  So if you're thinking of writing a sort of extended piece of action, having a thread like that
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  helps hold it together. Gimli takes the book to return to under the mountain,
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  and it's not to my knowledge mentioned again. So I am thinking that if this isn't of the size
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  as of the Jackson films, which is like an enormous tone, because how could he lug that around?
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  No wonder he was finding it hard to run across the plains of Rohan. I'm suspecting it's something a
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  bit more, you know, book shaped as opposed to volume. And it's described as a book, of course.
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  So the next part is where we merge into the skirmish. The events of the book are coming out of
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  the into the present day because they start by hearing the drums. And there isn't more than that,
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  though. It's as though it's like they're infected by the sense of panic and fear that the
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  dwarves experienced at the end, which of course is very vividly portrayed by the scrolling last
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  words they are coming. So it means that the effect of the book isn't just informational, it's
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  atmospheric, and it carries over into members of the fellowship. There's some wonderful details
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  here. I've noted down this particular one. This is about the noise of the drums, doom, doom,
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  it rolled again, as if huge hands were turning the very cabins of Moria into a vast drum.
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  Now of all the audio versions of this, when it's read by Andy Circus, who is brilliant action scenes,
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  do listen to his action scenes, he makes the doom sound, a wonderful sort of, I can't do it,
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  but a wonderful sound of a drum, doom, he lets it really reverberate. And I think that is what
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  Tolkien is intending for us to pick up here. So in this panic, it's notable that Gandalf
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  is the one who sort of taps it down and he takes control in a very, in a more visible way than he
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  has elsewhere. He breaks their panic by saying that happened to the dwarves, but I was not here then.
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  And he overalls Aragon, who says, we must go, we must go to leave, he's still in, you know,
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  flight mode. Gandalf is much more methodical about, let's, we've got to strategise our exit.
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  When they hear people or orcs arriving in the corridor outside, Gandalf goes out to have a quick look,
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  it's interesting that it's done again primarily through sounds. Moria is a wonderful soundscape.
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  It's very much, I would say it's probably more sound than visual as a place, which fits with the
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  dark empty spaces. And it also fills as though it reminds us that we're seeing this from the Hobbit's
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  point of view, because we don't see what Gandalf sees, we hear what he reports. And then they get
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  the people trying to come in at the door, people orcs, they are people, but you know what I mean,
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  they get the, get an attack, and Boramir is trying to shore up this rotten door. And someone breaks
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  through, and here we get Frodo being far more heroic than he is in the film. I kind of, I was
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  noting there was a pole of the favourite characters, this is IMDB, had a pole of the favourite Lord
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  of the Rings characters from the film, and Frodo doesn't make it into the top five. I sometimes wonder
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  if that's because they downplayed his initiative and courage that he shows in the barrow and here
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  and elsewhere. He seems more passive, more things happen to him than him actually taking initiative.
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  So let's highlight those times when Frodo from the book steps up. And here we get the lovely phrase
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  suddenly and to his own surprise, Frodo felt a hot roth blaze up in his heart. And he goes forward
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  and stabs the encroaching foot of the orc. And there's a reflection here on the relative
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  strengths of the weapon. So whereas Boramir's saw just had no effect, sting is able to cut through
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  the sort of the outer skin, I suppose, the scales of this orc. And then of course,
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  there is the incursion into the chamber and they have to fight at close quarters. I just wanted
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  to read the paragraph that's the summary of that because it's a very clever way. Are they talking
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  is so good at controlling how we understand and follow action? So the attack is preceded by arrows
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  coming in and then the orcs leap into the chamber. How many there were the company could not count?
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  The fray was sharp but the orcs were dismayed by the fierceness of the defence. Legolas shot
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  two through the throat, gimli-hued the legs from under another that had sprung up on Barlin's
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  tomb. Boramir and Aragorn slew many. When 13 had fallen, the rest fled shrieking, leaving the
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  defenders unharmed except for Sam who had a scratch along his scalp. So it's quick and dirty. I
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  note here some of the differences from the film, much less extensive though cave troll coming in
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  and there is mention of Charles but we don't get that set piece of the cave troll coming in.
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  We also hear, do you notice that it's not gimli on the tomb and orc has leapt on the tomb,
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  gimli-hued the legs from under another that had sprung up on Barlin's tomb. So he's using in the film
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  gimli is shown standing on the tomb whereas here is cutting the orc off at the legs
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  for daring to, you know, desecrate the dwarfs tomb like that. So it's always good to go back
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  to the book just to check what Tolkien had in mind rather than those who are after, you know,
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  the action scenes in a movie which have different requirements from something in a book.
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  Then of course we get the moment when Frodo is injured. It's not done with a cave troll,
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  it's done by a larger orc chieftain who comes in and his broad flat face was swat his eyes
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  were like coals and his tongue was red, he will did a great spear and he throws Boromir aside
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  and then he hurls his spear at Frodo and Sam it is who hacks off the spear shaft to break it off
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  and then as the orc is approaching, Aragorn comes in an andural, comes down upon the helm
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  and the orc fell with clove and head. So it's a kind of joint defense between Sam and Aragorn
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  or Frodo there. There has been some criticism of Tolkien sort of racially profiling his orcs.
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  Not sure that's entirely true, this does seem like swat does mean black but I think what he's
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  going for isn't to do with you know skin and colour in our sense it's more just as the the true
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  colour of the black riders is white he's going for the kind of underground traditional association
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  of the sort of cave dwelling dark creatures in the dark here but I guess if he was writing it today
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  he might have other thoughts about how he chooses to characterise his bad guys anyway
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  but that's what I think he's going for there and so I hope people don't find that at all offensive
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  so they now leave the chamber Aragorn picks up the dazed Frodo and Gimli is described as being
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  reluctant to leave it kind of always think really but who knows he knows it's the last time he's
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  going to see Barlin steam and Gandalf all through this chapter is really trying to get him to obey
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  so they've got a fellowship structure which is done by consensus and now he's having to overall
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  everybody to get them to behave and save their lives and he says do as I say said Gandalf fiercely
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  swords are no more use here go are you really buying a car online on auto trader right now really
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  I can get super specific with dealer listings and see cars based on my budget you can really have
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  a deliver or pick it up I think kid is walking up the slide really auto trader buyer car online really
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  and so the next confrontation where they go down the stairs and wait for Gandalf
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  is we hear it from a distance so we can hear the sort of the cries above and the crack and the
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  collapse of the chamber but it's at a distance and just know what's going on here he's talking is
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  saving the big confrontation he's not doing not showing us a prelim of the fight with the bow
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  it happens upstairs out of sight we just hear it what we hear is it's effect but he's holding
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  back the full horror of the bow rock don't give us too much details hold back make give us
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  work make us work for it give us an appetite to see this monster and Gandalf says ominously when
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  he comes down but I have met my match and have nearly been destroyed so we know Gandalf's on the
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  back foot but they seem to have escaped for the moment he says that in order to stop the bow
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  rock he had to speak a word of command now command seems like to have the stature of a
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  without world world founding power like the music of the a nor creation it seems as though it's like
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  that kind of magic isn't just lighting a fire it's like digging deep into the structure of
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  the world which is why it's so meaningful I haven't really looked into the whole issue of words
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  of commands I'm going to have to see if I can find any other examples where that is referred to
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  in that way but clearly it's like Gandalf digging deep in his magic to prevent the bow rock following
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  them and then we get the how did Frodo survive section and it's not resolved here we know we know
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  he's wearing the middle coat and we were reminded of course last chapter arrogant is saying that
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  thrust would have skewed a wild boar Frodo says he feels like he's been between a hammer and an
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  anvil but then it's rather great here that Gandalf gets to say there is more about you the meets
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  the eyes as I said of him meaning Bilbo longer go it's true on many levels there's more to Frodo
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  than meets the eye he lasts longer with the ring than anybody else could but also I think it's the
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  tipping the wink that Gandalf knows that Frodo is wearing the middle coat
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  which of course he doesn't get to see because he disappears down into the chasm before
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  Frodo is given a chance to rest now I feel interested in learning
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  orchish speech here you've got another word to add which is gash they come down to find that the
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  lower levels are on fire now there is no swaying rocks sculpture as in the Peter Jackson films
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  this section in the film is propelled along by the music I think Tolkien is he doesn't he doesn't
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  hang around at all in this chapter as I've said it's very short and I believe when I was watching
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  the making of the reason why they did that swaying pinnacle of stone in the Peter Jackson film came
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  down to a fact that a concept artist had drawn something which gave Jackson the idea so it's not
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  from the book at all you may like it it has its own it I suppose what it shows in the film is
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  this section is all about the fellowship working together so they fight together then they save
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  each other together and it's also a moment when Frodo and Aragorn have a time together so I can see
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  it works in filmic terms but anyway the the book isn't hanging around doing that kind of stuff
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  is going straight to what is the main point of this chapter and there is the phrase some new
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  devilery is here when they see the fire and the trap that's been set for them there aren't really
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  devils in middle earth but we understand what we make what it means the book is said to be a
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  translation so it doesn't have to be a sort of devilery in the sense of our understanding of
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  that now it means evil doing I think anyway this is one of the few times when devils or demons
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  is mentioned he tends to avoid that kind of language using things like orkish instead
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  do note I haven't mentioned every time it's said but do note there's still this doom doom going on
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  in the background this heartbeat raising our pulses the whole part of this chapter is surely written
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  to be read out I was reminded of Dickens now Dickens made a part of his living from reading out
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  sections of his novels things like the death of Nancy or Scrooge and from the Christmas Carol
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  the Nancy is from Oliver Twist of course he wrote to perform and he was consciously listening
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  for how it would later work out if he wrote it if he declaimed it in front of an audience and for
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  all the accounts of it he was a very good reader this has that feel that Tolkien was reading it out
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  aware of how it would strike a listener just begs to be read out loud doesn't it we have a reminder
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  uh in the middle of in my section 343 that we are in Frodo's point of view suddenly Frodo saw
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  before him a black chasm is quite a good idea to keep gently circling back to your main character point
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  of view just so we know where we are and that is a good way of doing it but then we have the
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  arrival of one of the most famous monsters of the more the Balrog it i love the way it comes so it comes
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  in stages we've got the fire we've got the fear of the orcs then we have legolas who then cries out
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  i.e. a Balrog a Balrog is come him he is the oldest race who knows the Balrog from the days when
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  the sons of Yanor fought them and many of the famous Elven lords died at the hands about Balrogs
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  and then it goes to Gimli because of course it's partly the dewar responsibility in some way
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  that the Balrog is released and he calls it Durin's bane so another fell creature for their race
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  and then the finally Gandalf sort of sums up the reaction now i understand this is what we've
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  all been building up to this is why in the end he knows that he's come to the final confrontation
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  it is so familiar to us this section and actually this is one of the bits in the Jackson film which
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  i think is very very well done but it's worth going back to the books to look at the details
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  first of all note it's a silent phone doesn't shout or declaim anything presumably the noise
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  of it moving around and the whipping the crack of the whip and that kind of thing is a kind of
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  noise but it is dark and silent and menacing it also has the way it's described it comes
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  more into focus it's as though it's taking form because first of all it is followed by a shadow
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  which is like wings with fire from its nostrils and then a little bit later on the wings are
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  are there they're described as spreading behind him it's as though he's almost taking shape
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  embodying and it's very meltonic it feels like something out of
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  Satan's book in paradise lost and of course that is one of the underlying texts for any educated
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  person writing in English so it has that feel is also notable that silence is used again
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  there is a sort of lull and it's the oh no the omg moment everybody else in that place are
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  minnows compared to the two main gunslingers the ballrog and Gandalf
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  facing each other down on this narrow thin bridge just want to point out the beauty of the
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  architecture it's like the high street in high noon all the doors either side are shuttered
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  there's a chasm i mean it's fantasies it's even bigger than that but it has that feel there is no
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  other route they can take it's a duel they're forced to face each other by the architecture of the
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  place and how perilous it is which is going to prove absolutely key to defeating the ballrog of
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  course it's has one of my favorite bits of Gandalf's speech so i'm not as good as Andy circus or
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  Ian McKellen but i do love the way there's like a formal challenge here Gandalf says
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  you cannot pass now the film version which most people refer to when they say this if you
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  shall not pass that was a change suggested by Ian McKellen because he felt it fitted his understanding
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  of the character better you cannot pass means i'm not going to let you you know you can't pass
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  what i'm here it's another way of putting it you shall not pass is him saying you're not going
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  so one is more it's there's a very subtle difference there and Tolkien chose his words carefully
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  and he repeats it twice so he meant it to be cannot you cannot pass while the wielder of the
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  flame of Arnold is here i think he meant it anyway um tiny difference but let's let's let's put it
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  back in Tolkien's words you cannot pass he said i am a servant of the secret fire
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  wielder of the flame of Arnold you cannot pass the dark fire will not avail you flame of
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  wooden go back to the shadow you cannot pass actually he says it four times so Tolkien really
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  meant it didn't he but i love that um wielder of the secret fire the flame of Arnold just he's
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  calling on his titles wonderful stuff might feel a bit mysterious but those are the glimpses of
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  the long history behind him seven of the secret fires so that's something to do with the beginnings
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  of creation he's a spiritual being a some power and magic behind him and i think the flame of
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  Arnold is put up against flame of who doomed so you've got one sort of blade of fire against another
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  so here i want to bring your attention to the fact that when he does get on the bridge he being
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  the bowrog or he should be saying it because Tolkien says it he now has his wings embodied it stepped
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  forward slowly onto the bridge and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height and its wings
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  were spread from wall to wall this actually was well done in the film i for that moment where he
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  comes forward and the wings come out behind him so i can't help but sometimes i wish i could delete
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  things i've got from films but that is something i don't mind having in my imagination
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  but the here is something to note from a craft point of view so you've got this vastness what do you
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  do to bring home you talk about the littleness of the person defying him Gandalf could be seen glimmering
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  in the gloom he seems small and all together alone gray and bent like a wizard tree before the
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  onset of a storm so we got the sense of him facing impossible odds of course arrogant and
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  Boromir being the brave souls that they are want to rush to him and i think that this is possibly
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  might precipitate Gandalf breaking the bridge because he wants to keep wants to do it before
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  they get to him because he doesn't want them to be wiped out as well because if they go
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  who's left to lead the company and also he wants to preserve his friend's life so he then
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  smites the bridge and the bridge falls apart this is done better than in the film in the film you've
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  got Gandalf kind of hanging on fly you fools and then dropping here it's all done in one's move move
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  uh so that he doesn't he he shouts that as he falls it feels a slightly the choreography of that
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  seems a bit more convincing he staggered and fell grass faintly at the stone and slid into the abyss
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  fly you fools he cried and was gone so in some the best thing you can do rather than listen to me
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  is to go back and read that section and just have a look at how well it is written
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  it's this section is visual i've been talking about the soundscapes of Boromir but this is this
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  bit on the bridge is very visual and each beat of it is just right and it's accompanied by the drum
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  beat as well which is working to emphasize the doom because the noise of the drums is Gandalf's doom
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  that has come then there's a very short coda to this arrogant steps up very quickly he realizes he
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  has to lead come i will lead you now and in disarray the companions run out Frodo heard Sam his side
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  weeping and then he found that he himself was weeping as he ran lovely description that
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  he's so upset he doesn't realize his weeping until he sees that his companion is weeping
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  and the doom modulates to a quiet beat which is beautifully musical sort of fades away it's the
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  obviously the orcs are mourning the loss of their ballrog and many of their number
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  but we are mourning the loss of Gandalf and if you've done a section in the dark for a very long time
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  of course when they reach the daylight it's going to be more than normal daylight the archway
• 31:47
  is like an arch of blazing light and out they come into the light of day they are through moria
• 31:56
  this is one of my favorite scenes from the pt. Jackson film just that moment when they are crying
• 32:02
  a larger word as Frodo does a very good job at just being so heart-rending but anyway here it is
• 32:07
  in the talking version they did not hold until they were out of bowshot from the walls dimral del
• 32:14
  lay about them the shadow of the misty mountains lay upon it but eastwards there was a golden light
• 32:19
  on the land it was one hour afternoon the sun was shining the clouds were white and high
• 32:27
  its nature carries on they looked back dark yonder archway of the gates under the mountain shadow
• 32:35
  faint and far beneath the earth rolled the slow drumbeats doom a thin black smoke trailed out
• 32:42
  nothing else was to be seen the dail all around was empty doom grief at last wholly overcame them
• 32:50
  and they went long some standing and silent some cast upon the ground doom doom the drumbeats faded
• 32:59
  it feels like a piece of epic poetry that wonderful wonderful chapter possibly one of my favorites
• 33:08
  i wonder if it is your favorite because actually it's got a lot of competition because the next
• 33:13
  chapter we're going to reach Lothlorion which also is a fave so this is such a great section of
• 33:20
  the book anyway i hope you enjoyed spending some time on the bridge of chazadon with me today
• 33:26
  and look forward to meeting you again as we reach Lothlorion
• 33:36
  thanks for listening to myth makers podcast brought to you by the oxford center for fantasy
• 33:42
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