Latest / Motherhood Alliance Podcast / Dry Needling: How It Works & Who It's For W/ Dr. Matt Buch | Total Pursuit PT
Transcript
- Andrea Renkas: Hey everybody, welcome back to the Motherhood Alliance podcast. We're here with Dr. Matt and we're excited to have you back here. Matt Buch: Thank you so much for having me back. Happy to be here. Andrea Renkas: ⁓ Yeah, absolutely. this is fourth episode with you and ⁓ one thing I have to say is that I really just enjoy listening to how you explain different things. feel like there's a there could be a lot of fear for some people, especially if they're like needles, ⁓ no, but there's so much benefit with needling. I know Brittany mentioned that she had dry done in the past I have also. I've had it in my shoulders, ⁓ and it's ⁓ definitely a little bit. It's a feeling for And it's really fascinating with how your muscles react. Britney: Hey everyone, we are Brit and Drea from motherhoodalliance.com and we are excited to welcome you to a four episode series with Dr. Matt Buch, a doctor of physical therapy, board certified orthopedic specialist, and the owner of total pursuit physical therapy and performance based out of De Pere, Wisconsin. Dr. Matt works with active people of all kinds from athletes who love to train hard to parents who simply want to run around with their kids without dealing with constant aches and pains. But what really sets him apart is his belief that pain isn't something you just live with. Andrea Renkas: to the stimulus of the needle. And so first of all, let's just have you explain what is dry needling and how does that work. Britney: So if you've ever been told to rest more, stretch more, or chalk it up to getting older, he is really passionate about challenging that mindset. His approach focuses on uncovering the root cause so that you can move better and feel stronger for the long haul. Dr. Matt creates customized treatment plans that often combine hands-on techniques like dry needling, cupping, and joint manipulation with strength training, movement coaching, and realistic habit shifts that actually fit your life. It's not just about getting you out of pain. It's about keeping you active long-term. Matt Buch: So in a nutshell, dry needling ⁓ where we take a very ⁓ what's called a monofilament needle, which basically means that it's not hollow point, nothing is being injected. That's why we call it dry needling. And we're putting it into a ⁓ tissue your that we are trying to make a change in. So it could be muscle, that's the most common thing that's needled. We also do a lot of needling into Britney: And outside the clinic, he's an avid bow hunter, climber, outdoor enthusiast, husband, and dad to two young boys. So he truly understands the value of being able to move well and keep up with the life that you love. Matt Buch: Tendons for people that have a tendinopathy like a tendonitis ⁓ issue. It can be very beneficial for that. And in scar tissue as well for people who have built up a lot of scar tissue. ⁓ Maybe after a surgery, maybe it's from something else. But it be really beneficial for releasing that as well. So essentially what we're doing is we're taking needle when it goes into these tissues. We'll talk about muscles, for example, because that's the most common thing that we use it for. really doing two different things. It's what's happening inside of the muscle. And it's changing how the nervous system ⁓ is acting changing how your brain is perceiving ⁓ that pain So If we're talking about the what's going on at the actual level of the muscle, is happening ⁓ when the needle goes in, we're looking for tight areas of of bound up muscle tissue. ⁓ We those trigger points. So a lot of times people will refer to it as trigger point dry needling. ⁓ What that is that there's an area in the muscle that's just kind of bound up. It's ⁓ not. relaxing the way that it should. over the course of time, this can start to result in a lot of pain where people will feel kind of an aching soreness in the muscle because the not working correctly. It's also cutting off some blood flow ⁓ to all the capillaries within the muscle, ⁓ which results ⁓ not a of oxygen being able to get into the tissues. So when we hit those areas in the muscle, A lot of times what people will experience is either kind of a deep, aching sensation. ⁓ I like to refer to it as like you're getting a deep tissue massage from inside the muscle. that's literally what it feels like. sometimes you'll feel that muscle, ⁓ actually twitch as well. both of those are ⁓ really what we're looking for. from a, from a sensation perspective, what happens then is that that tight. bound up area of muscle actually releases itself out and it allows for improved blood flow into the muscle. So just kind of thinking of it as ⁓ setting, you know, hitting the reset button on a muscle. The other thing that it does is it works the nervous a little bit as well. So the body has built in pain blockers and dry needling actually helps turn those on. It's called the gate theory, which we're kind of shutting the gate on pain signals. So the brain ⁓ ⁓ not receiving these pain signals from the muscle as quickly. It's ⁓ to kind of those signals down so that you're not experiencing as much pain in the muscle. after the dry needling is performed. Andrea Renkas: So when you're talking about trigger points, I feel like people may have heard that term before. And I think that a lot of times they might think using a foam roller or a massage ball or a hard ball might help with those areas. What's the difference between using those modalities versus dry needling? Matt Buch: Yeah. So the main goal behind a foam roller, ⁓ you know, a lacrosse ball, the, the dry needling, the goal is all the same. it's to, it's to release those, those trigger points. What, what can happen though is, is especially with like the surface level stuff, the foam roller, the lacrosse ball, even like getting, deep tissue massage is sometimes these trigger points are like way down in the muscle. it's really, really hard to get to them from the surface of skin. And in cases, you just can't. And so people will roll and roll roll, or they'll sit on their lacrosse ball, and it's like, man, it feels like I'm in the right spot. It feels like it's right there, but it's just not quite releasing. That's when dry needling be a really good modality, because we can get all the way down into that muscle. exactly to where that spot is. Britney: Is this typically a one and done type thing? Matt Buch: It can be ⁓ my experience, about to five sessions is, where people land ⁓ on getting full effect of it. so, so during our first session, a lot of times people will feel an initial relief, but there's still a little bit of it hanging around. they come back for another one. The ⁓ effect sort of compounds itself. Every time they come in, they get more and more and more, until we're at the point where it's like. I feel feel good. I think we I think we got everything. So usually usually three to five is is somewhere where most people are going to land. If we are you know three sessions in and it's just not feeling any different. It's probably not the right approach and we'll need to figure something else out. In rare cases. Yeah I have had people that have come in had it done once and they're like I feel I feel good. I think we can move on. I don't I don't think I need this again. So ⁓ It really just depends on how the body responds to it. Andrea Renkas: what's the difference between dry needling and like acupuncture? Matt Buch: Great question. so dry needling actually ⁓ derived from acupuncture. ⁓ Acupuncture has been around much longer. The main difference acupuncture focuses on Eastern medicine principles. So I don't want to try and speak too much on this because I'm not an acupuncture provider, but from what I understand, acupuncture ⁓ is really looking specific acupoints that are mapped all throughout the body. You're gonna target different ⁓ for different purposes. And the idea is that it's balancing your energy flow through your body, realigning your meridians, things like that. In dry needling, we take more of a Western approach to it and more of an anatomical approach. So where it really came from is, you know, maybe we didn't fully think that the energy flow ⁓ theory was what was causing the relief, but they did see that there was some relief being caused through acupuncture. we're like, okay, well, why is that? And so people who kind of forefronted dry needling started taking acupuncture. Literally, it can be the same tool. Dry needles and acupuncture needles are pretty much the same thing, but using them in a different way. ⁓ so ⁓ dry needling, rather going ⁓ just the subcutaneous tissue with the needle, we're going all the way down into the muscle tendon, whatever it is that we're looking for to target that specific spot that's irritated. Britney: as you say that, going all the way down into the muscular tendon, would you say this feels? Explain it to somebody who's never had Matt Buch: So the actual needle, you almost never feel. It's very small, it's extremely sharp. usually will just feel the pressure of like little plastic hollow tube that the needle kind of goes through to actually get into the skin. That's what people will feel on the surface of the skin. Really, really not a big deal. You don't feel a sharp pain, or at least you shouldn't. What most people will feel is a deep aching sensation. I think I talked about it a little bit earlier. gonna feel like you're getting a deep tissue massage from inside of the muscle. The nice thing with dry needling, ⁓ I always tell this to people to kind give them a little bit of an at ease moment, is if was going on in this muscle and it was in you perfect health, you wouldn't feel anything. Nothing would really happen. The more intense the sensation, the more jacked up the tissue is. ⁓ And so if you're a pretty intense, like, wow, that is a that's a deep ache, like I'm feeling that muscle twitch, it means we're probably doing the right thing to to get that thing to release out and calm down long term. Andrea Renkas: you Matt Buch: What you should not feel is a stabbing type pain, sharp, you know, electric type pain, nothing like that. It's to feel like an achiness, ⁓ like aching sensation. Britney: I really appreciate what you just said because if you, like you said, if it's a healthy muscle, you're really not going to feel much because there's no problem there. But if it's just like a massage, right? Like if you have... Matt Buch: Mm-hmm. Britney: tension in your shoulder, it's going to hurt short term somebody's working on it, but then it feels so much better. So like it is short term discomfort potentially depending on the severity of the area, but then for long term relief. So it's worth it, right? It's worth it. Here's another question is are there areas of the body that you really can't dry needle? I mean, I'm thinking about how intricate our hands are or like our feet or ⁓ Andrea Renkas: does, yeah. Britney: deep muscles like in the glutes where they're like the the deepest level. then for some of these more specialty areas do you need extra certifications or like who is able to do dry needling? So kind of a pair of a question there. Matt Buch: Yeah, there are certain areas of the body that personally wouldn't needle just for ⁓ reasons. So example, like an muscle, like the muscles between your ribs. Personally, not worth getting close to the lungs ⁓ for my comfort But regarding the hands and feet, ⁓ learn how to needle ⁓ of those spots. The glutes, everything, you just vary ⁓ the size the needle based off of what your target is. And by size, I just mean length, not necessarily like how big the needle is. They're all very thin, so don't... ⁓ Britney: I feel like they need to find a different word than needle for this. Like just find a different word. mean, we all kind of know what it is, but the people that like, I'm kind of a needle-o-phobe. I hate, I can't stand it when I have to my blood drawn. I could pass out on you, but dry needling to me, it can be a different type of experience. So I ⁓ had it done. I'm able to handle it a little bit better. I probably don't want to see it, but yeah, ⁓ I it's just funny how we're. Andrea Renkas: Yeah, I do too. ⁓ Matt Buch: Cool. Okay. Britney: conversation continues around like this is a topic where people feel uncomfortable and yeah it might be physically a little bit uncomfortable but it's going to be worth it. But let's find a different term so people aren't so scared, right? Matt Buch: Right? I think, I think one thing for people to understand is, know, if, this is something you're a little bit hesitant about, just be upfront with your provider about that. any, anytime that, that I knew somebody in the clinic, you know, they're laying down on the table, they're comfortable, they're, they're relaxed. you know, a lot of times like, like you said, Britt, like maybe they have their eyes closed or they're just, you know, imagining themselves on a, on a beach, something like that. just really important that, that you are in a comfortable environment, you're relaxed, and that you're, you're totally okay with, with the modality. ⁓ it, it's a tool. It's not the tool. ⁓ so it's a great tool. I think it works very, very well. It's not going to be the end all be all, nor is it going to be the right tool for everybody. ⁓ so I don't want to ever talk somebody into it. but. I will definitely let them know if I think it's gonna be a beneficial treatment for them. Britney: If you're going to dry needle a certain area, how long does it take? Matt Buch: It can take as little as like 30 seconds if it's just one needle and we're just kind of going in and out. It can take up to ⁓ 15, minutes ⁓ if are doing a couple different spots, if we're the needles just kind of hang out in the muscle for a little bit. Sometimes that's necessary as the muscle relaxes. You just wanna let everything just kind of calm down, let the nervous system relax. So usually it's like five to 10 minutes. pretty quick. Britney: What about like, is there any sort of recovery to this where after somebody gets needled, should they be ⁓ are there things you recommend to kind of maximize the results? Is it, can it be paired with maybe foam rolling? Is that a no-no? Do you have to like hydrate extra? What are your instructions for afterward? Matt Buch: ⁓ you always want to hydrate extra. what I tell people is the more movement, the better. ⁓ We want to encourage blood flow that area. That's just going to help things feel better. And it's also going to help the response. What you normally experience afterwards ⁓ is about 24 to 48 hours soreness. And I tell people it feels like just did a good workout through that muscle. Like if you're getting, if you had... Needling down up in your shoulder, it's going to feel like you did a bunch of shrugs that day. Um, it's not painful. It's just sore. So heat movement, any of that kind of stuff is going to be your best friend. What we want to stay away from is ice, anti-inflammatories, anything that's going to reduce inflammation because we actually want to encourage that little local inflammatory response to improve blood flow into the area and really flush out. any of those, those ⁓ areas that have, that have just kind of been, been sitting there with, without a whole lot of blood flow. we want to get some of those like inflammatory cells out of there, and just really pump some, some new good oxygenated blood through that area. that's going to help improve the muscle quality. It's going to help improve the overall effect of the treatment. ⁓ and it's going to just make things feel better. ⁓ while. you're in that state of a little bit of soreness afterwards. Britney: Do you have any real life examples that you can share with us of some like injuries or something somebody was dealing with and then they, you know, they got needling done and it was helpful. Matt Buch: had one guy come in here, with a shoulder issue. he couldn't lift his arm up over his head, um, without excruciating pain. And on his very first session, we did some needling around his shoulder and his neck. And he left that day and he came back for his follow-up appointment and he was just ecstatic. He was like, I can't believe how well this worked. He was like, look at this. And he's like raising his arm up and down over his head. He was just floored by it. So sometimes it is just a ⁓ simple, like, let's just get this muscle unwound a little bit because of how irritable it is. And then he actually did the same thing. Like a year later, he came back to see me for his quad and had almost the exact same response. So Andrea Renkas: you Britney: this a common response or do most people kind of a couple of sessions typically? Okay, so he's just super powered. Matt Buch: Most people need a couple of sessions. This guy was a little bit of an exception to the rule. But ⁓ ⁓ it multiple times. I've seen it enough where people have had a tremendous response the first time they've had it done. And usually the consensus is like, wow, I wish I would have done this sooner. Britney: Okay, do you have any other examples? Because I like hearing stories, success stories, especially for people that are on the fence. Matt Buch: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I had a lady ⁓ a month ago that was in here. she could turn her head fully to the left, could turn her head about ⁓ halfway the right. ⁓ we did some needling up through the top of her shoulder ⁓ and into her neck. and then by the time she left the clinic in her hour session, she was rotating her head fully to, to the right, which was awesome. And then I had another guy that came in here with low back pain. had worked with him in the past. He had a little bit of a flare up avid ⁓ mountain biker. was about ready to go up to the UP for a race called the Margie Gessick. It's a high level mountain bike race. His back had tightened up on him because he had a little incident in the weight room ⁓ the week before. And we spent some time, did a lot of needling through his back. texted me the next day saying he felt fantastic. ⁓ he beat his time in his race by like, I don't even remember what it was, but it was by like 10 plus minutes from ⁓ last time he ran it. So that was pretty awesome too. Britney: Yeah, so don't be scared. be scared. ⁓ so if if somebody is maybe struggling with a long term pain point, or is just curious to learn more, obviously they can. We've talked about your free consult, especially in the end of Episode One, you kind of really went into the length of that and what that looks like. So they can obviously do that. But do have any other like, last thoughts or things that you'd want people to know about dry needling as we close out this episode? Matt Buch: the number one thing I want to tell people ⁓ is it can be intimidating. is very, very safe modality. And if there is a reason that you can't have it done, ⁓ there are a couple, you know, red flag know, like bleeding disorders or something like that. We're going to screen all that stuff out ⁓ before we ⁓ start, because we want to sure that is going to be a safe option for you. The other thing is that ⁓ a great tool. It can help people a lot. And it ⁓ just that, a tool. Usually it's not going to be just a one and thing or a treatment protocol in and of itself. So anytime we're looking at trying to doling somebody, We always want to follow up those positive changes that we made by improving the strength through that new range of motion or building up somebody's tolerance to whatever activity they're doing so that they don't find themselves in a place where feel really good, all of a sudden, shoot, couple of weeks, couple of months later, now I feel like I need to do it again. We wanna help you. improve from from whatever it is that you're struggling with permanently. Dry needling is a great way to accelerate that. then we always want to follow that up with with a proper rehab protocol as well. So so yeah, it's a it can be intimidating, especially for people who don't like needles, but it's it's ⁓ a good tool and it is it can provide such positive and quick results for people. Britney: Yeah. Matt Buch: If you're on the fence at all about it, would certainly encourage, you know, trying it because it's probably not as bad as you think it's going to be. Britney: I'm guessing people don't typically come into a PT office just for a a la carte dry needling session. And then there's like nothing else to follow up with it, right? Like, cause it's, you're trying to find the root cause of what's causing somebody's issue. And this can like release the tension, but then, okay, what caused this tension in the first place? You know, I also think about a quick fix people are oftentimes doing is a cortisone shot. that's masking the problem for now and maybe gets you a few months of relief, but then you know it's going to come back because you didn't fix the problem. So I do appreciate how you're laying it out as kind of a tool in the toolbox of a PT and how it can be really beneficial. So to finish out all four of our episodes together, we always love to ask a final question, which for you is going to be, what is the future of total pursuit PT? Matt Buch: Absolutely, that's an awesome question. My vision ⁓ the future of total pursuit is we're gonna reframe how our local community sees therapy. Because I unfortunately, a lot of times what ends up happening in our modern medical system ⁓ is people are for visits. Most of our modern medical system insurance companies, all of that stuff, incentivize quick fixes, pain management, and getting in and out the door. Our goal ⁓ ⁓ to a with clients, understand what their goals and their aspirations are, and then figure out a plan that's going to get them to there. And then most importantly, prevent this issue from coming back again in the future. ⁓ and I do think that that is where the future of physical therapy is headed. it's not there yet, but our goal is to push that, ⁓ and really be on the forefront ⁓ making this ⁓ a lifestyle change, ⁓ people, you know, figure out why they're in pain. and, and not only just, you know, slap a bandaid on it and address it, but actually dive all the way into ⁓ fixing. the real reason that they found themselves in this position in the first place so that they don't need us again and that they can continue to do their thing and live their life and just spend time with their kids and their grandkids as they get older and all of that stuff that's gonna really ⁓ them meaning later on in life. So we wanna be known as the ⁓ clinic was on the front lines of that and the clinic that really raised the bar in terms of patient success and just culture and really building something that people are going to find high level results with. Britney: can't wait to see it all unfold. mean, I think there's so many wellness businesses in our area that are so passionate about that same thing of just helping people understand that there are choices out there and we don't have to settle for short appointment times and huge bills and all this other stuff. And that's also why you are a cash-based clinic, right? Yeah, because then you're not held back by the limitations of insurance and it gives you the flexibility to truly actually help people with a plan that you can customize. So that's, that's great. All right. Well, thank you, Dr. Matt for joining us for all four of these episodes and educating all of our listeners and us as well. We loved having you on. Matt Buch: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. This has been fantastic. Britney: You bet.