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Transcript

Stop Trying to Pull the Trigger Faster: How Elite Shooters Improve Their Speed · Making Shooters Better

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: If you do a one shot draw and before you break your grip, before you look at the timer, you know, do you take that three to five seconds of, hey, do I have the right grip?
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: Am I hey am I on an aggressive stance?
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: All that that information that goes away as soon as we move, but if you analyze it, the hole in the target's gonna stay there until I tape it.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: And the second thing is that I can do everything wrong and still get an alpha or a zero or whatever you're you're shooting for, and you're not gonna know it.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: You're just gonna look at the time and you can look at at the hit rather than analyzing what did I just do?
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, what do I need to do different on this rep?
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it just takes three to five seconds.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: And if we do that and we think about before an X rep, your learning curve will go dramatically higher than just trying to learn through repetition.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: Hello and welcome to Making Shooters Better, brought to you by Laser Ammo.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_03: Most shooters who want to get faster immediately start thinking about just pulling the trigger quicker.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_03: But according to the two married competitive shooters we're going to be talking to today, who've spent years winning at the highest levels of competitive shooting, that's probably the wrong place to start looking.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_03: Randy Rogers started shooting at age 11 with the nickname Holy Terror.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: We'll cover that during the interview.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_03: But she's gone on to win more than 85 world and national titles across nine shooting disciplines.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_03: Her husband Gordon, who is also highly ranked as a competitive shooter, didn't even begin competing until his mid-30s.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_03: So we've got two completely different roads, but ultimately leading to the same destination.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_03: And in this conversation, they're going to break down what it actually takes to improve your shooting skills.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_03: We also, by pure happenstance, discovered the secret to being able to successfully coach your spouse with a firearm nearby when they're having a bad day.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_03: And apparently it starts with asking one very important question.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_03: Do you want me to try and fix this problem, or do you just want me to listen?
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_03: Probably useful advice for every married couple on or off the range.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_03: So without further ado, let's roll into the episode.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_03: Randy and Gordon, welcome to the podcast.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: We're so excited to be here.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_03: So am I.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_03: You are officially the first married competitive shooting couple we've had on the podcast.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: So I feel like there should have been some sort of drum roll or something for to get us all started because it's pretty cool.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I have a feeling you might have more because we are not the only ones.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: There are several out there, but I'm I'm honored to be the first.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's always great to be the first.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you'll have to do introductions for the others then.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: We will send you names.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: We will send you a whole list of names because I think we know about 10 or 12 couples.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: So it it's fantastic.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people, yeah, they kind of make it a family affair.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_03: So that's brilliant.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we definitely have to talk to them as well.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_03: So I always start out the episodes the same way with a great icebreaker asking when did you actually begin shooting?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I started shooting as an 11-year-old.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I was very lucky.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: My grandparents kind of pseudo-raised me and they were competitive shooters.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I started spending time with them, I had two choices.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: I could sit in the truck and watch, or I could get out on the range myself.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: And let me tell you, it's way more fun to be out shooting guns than it is to sit in the truck.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_03: So that's why 11.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_03: That's young.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: It is, it is.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, it's it's almost a lifestyle.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's something, it's it's one of those things I've learned to do just like brushing my teeth and tying my shoes.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I got to shoot as well.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: So And well, I started a little later in life.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: I started around 35, and um I actually got shooting, involved in shooting because I got diagnosed with soratic arthritis, which meant I could no longer play racquetball, I couldn't play basketball.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: I took a lot of my activities away, and I was looking for a hobby.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I went to an indoor range and I started, you know, you know, bought a gun and I started practicing with it.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: I was raised on rifles and shotguns, but not handguns.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: My dad really didn't believe in handguns.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I got very lucky at that range, an IDP uh IDPA club started and I tried it, it didn't hurt my joints, and I started shooting.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm naturally competitive, so it just took off from there.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_03: That's funny.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_03: So you are both on vastly different paths as far as your entry into the shooting sports.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Randy, I think, is extremely lucky because she learned at an early age where it's easier to learn things.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um I started again later in life, and so sometimes we can be a little bit more stubborn about learning something or take a different approach.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: So it is it is interesting when we we we talk about things and how we you know she learns is different than how I learn, and it it can make for some unique but yet fun challenges.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, I'll bet.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, because it can be difficult when we get into our later years.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not sure what I'm talking about here, but it's difficult.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you you're ingrained, right?
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_03: Some of those habits that have been potentially there for years can be hard to break.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: And we we kind of talk about that with people.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: We would rather have students who have little to no shooting experience and start from scratch rather than having to draw, you know, break bad habits or things that they've learned or ingrained.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes that can be really challenging for people.
• 5:54
  unknown: Yeah.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: But we don't want any of your listeners to think, oh, I didn't start at 11, so I don't have a chance.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's absolutely not the case.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think shooting is a really unique sport in that no matter your size, your shape, your gender, your age, there is still a way that you can be successful and you can compete.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: There's a multitude of sports and activities and skills all involved in shooting.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think anyone at any age can have a great time at it.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it helps to maybe learn things when you're young.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's like riding a bike, but it doesn't mean that you don't have the opportunity to learn either.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's great.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I love that you're both proof that it can, it doesn't matter which path you take, whether you start young or whether you start later, because I agree.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_03: I think that if you have curiosity and you're willing to sort of pin your ears back and listen to some of the instructions, the instructors we have out there, you can become very competitive very quickly if you sort of dedicate the time and the effort to that training.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_03: So, Randy, when you look back on nearly three decades, can't believe this already, three decades of competitive shooting, 85 world titles and national titles across nine disciplines.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_03: What do you understand, do you think, now about shooting that perhaps your 11-year-old holy terror self could never understand?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_03: And we'll revisit that name in a minute, too.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_03: I was about to bring that up.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, so just a quick intro for our listeners.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I started in cowboy action.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the reason I'm called Holy Terror is in cowboy action, you adopt an alias to shoot under.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: It can be Black Bart or Roy Rogers, and I happen to be Holy Terror because my grandparents, they were Evil Roy and Wicked Felina.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I needed a bad name to fit in the family.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: And um apparently when I was quite small, like two or three year olds, I was called the Holy Terror.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it just I never grew out of it.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, that's priceless.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um But yeah, so yeah, 28 years later, um, the things that I look back on, I think the biggest thing that I didn't know at 11 that I know now is that shooting can be kind of hard.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think kids a lot of times are very fearless.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's that whole like, I'm gonna jump off the roof wearing my mom's drapes as a cape and I'm gonna fly and it's gonna be okay.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: There are no broken arms or anything.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think when you're a kid, you don't know things are hard.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, people say, Oh, yeah, aim at that target and pull the trigger and you hit it and you're like, oh yeah, that was easy.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'll just do that again.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: And um, as I've aged and gotten adult responsibilities and had to make the choice, okay, go practice or go to work so I can pay my rent.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's definitely opened my eyes up to um it is a little bit hard, but also I think the thing I didn't realize at 11 that I realize now is it's also really fun.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like this is an amazing experience and going to the range and meeting people and and doing these things, it's it's amazing.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's enjoyable and it's thrilling.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, at 11, you don't know it's hard, but you also don't know it's great.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm glad I've got to see that change as an adult.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_03: That's fascinating.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_03: So with cowboy action, because I'm my knowledge of cowboy action is very limited.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_03: I've seen some, I watched some of the YouTube stuff.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_03: One of the things that I watched very recently that astounded me was the quick draw cowboy action stuff, where they're leaning back in a rather obtuse position and then shooting in what looked to me like blazing speed from the holster.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_03: And so did you do any of that?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's a little different than what I did.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I I dabbled in that very shortly, but the cowboy quick draw, um, the quick draw specifically, that is amazing.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: That is all about reaction speed.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, you you you're trying to get the closest distance between the holster and the target as possible.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, that gun just barely comes up and clears that holster.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: Those guys are fantastic and it's a skill all to their own.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I did the more kind of traditional three gun where um you shoot the pistols and the rifles and the shotguns.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's it's not nearly as quick.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: We don't generally shoot right at the holster because we're aiming at um a little bit more difficult targets that are spaced out and things.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: But uh cowboy action is is fun.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: I I grew up doing it, I love it.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think if you were ever a fan of Westerns, you know, the old lonesome dove and Roy Rogers, it really kind of just brings that nostalgia back to life.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I even pulled Mr.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: Carroll into the cowboy action world and and he's fallen in love with it as well.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: She it took her a while to drag me into it, but um, she uh gave me the alias flash Gordon um to shoot with.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: And um it is really truly it is Terry, it is the original three gun because they have been doing this for a lot longer.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: And when you have to focus on learning three different weapon systems to shoot all in one stage, keep the guns running, keep your mind and you know what you have to do, it really is a great sport.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: And the people that you meet in that sport are some of the best that I have met in any of the shooting sports.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: They are wonderful people.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_03: So if it's three gun, you obviously got the cowboy pistol.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_03: Is it a cowboy rifle?
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_03: I'm assuming you're ratcheting the handle to put that next round, the lever lever action rifle, yes.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: On that.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: And that's again a whole different skill set than I.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I came from just purely pistols and a little bit of rifle from training.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: But learning how to work that, I still have to really work at it.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: Miss Rogers, like riding a bicycle, can pick one up, hasn't tested in five months and go ding ding d-ding ding ding.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: What's taking you so long?
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: I I I don't understand.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: You're not done.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, she looks over at me.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, it is a great sport and it's a lot of fun.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_03: First shot accuracy from a holster, whether that's outside the waistband or carrying concealed inside, comes down to one thing: reps.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_03: How many reps are you putting in each week?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_03: If you can't draw from either concealed or especially outside the waistband in less than a second and hit your target every single time, you have work to do.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_03: And when it matters most, you're not gonna get a warm-up rep.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_03: Laser ammo gives law enforcement and responsibly armed citizens the tools they need to train consistently, safely, at home or at the department.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_03: Five, ten, fifteen minutes a day could make all the difference in building your draw speed, building your first shot accuracy, and building your confidence that your performance will be there every single time.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_03: Train more, train smarter, train with laser ammo.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_03: Go to laser ammo.com to find out more.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_03: And now back to the episode.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_03: Somebody brought in a lever action rifle for me to practice with before going on top shot.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I must admit, growing up on the old black and white cowboy western movies, Clint Eastwood stuff as well, I was like, oh, this will be great.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I could not believe how tricky it was to do a full lever sweep to shoot very quickly.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_03: I kept when I tried speeding the process up, I think I was just short stroke in the lever.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if I was quite feeding it right.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_03: So I had to get quite aggressive to pick the speed up.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_03: But it it did remind me of the old stagecoach westerns where you've got one guy riding up there, shotgunned, you know, defending the stagecoach.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, this is fantastic.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_03: It really was a lot of fun.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's a lot of fun.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: The level action's always been my favorite, absolutely.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_03: The speed at which some of these people, you guys probably included, that run that rifle is astounding.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's interesting if you look at the cowboy action shooters because you've got a little bit of a split.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: You've got a lot of the older generation that definitely grew up on those, um, you know, Roy Rogers, and so they're a little bit older now.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then you also have they're bringing in their grandchildren.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so you have these 12, 13, 14-year-old uh young men and young women that again, they don't know it's hard.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so their their muscle reaction and their eyesight is so good that yeah, they run those rifles, they can shoot 10 rounds in less than two seconds.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's just, it's it's blistering speeds.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, that's incredible.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I was nowhere near that.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_03: Even when I sort of had practiced a few times, I'm like, yeah, if if they throw one of those at us at top shot, I'm gonna lose.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_03: That's what is the one I learned.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Terry, I'm still working at it, so don't feel bad.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Don't feel bad at all.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, good.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_03: So, Gordon, you came into shooting with a background in football, climbing, hiking, hunting, and uh looks like a multitude of other physical pursuits.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_03: Do you feel like one of those skills maybe transferred, you know, well to shooting, or was it, you know, sort of completely a different area altogether?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great question.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think that I've been very fortunate because I have been, you know, involved in sports since age eight.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, whether it was team sports or individual like track and field or football, all of them gave me something coming into the shooting sports.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if I think about football, um, you know, footwork was extremely important in football, being a linebacker, taking first steps, being aggressive was important, yet being under control was important.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so when you think about rock climbing, you have to be patient.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: You have to study, you have to have a plan.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um one other thing I did was I actually pole vaulted um from middle school through uh high school, or at least my sophomore year of high school.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: And in case you don't know that, there's a lot of times where it's 45 minutes before you vault again because you made it on your first attempt, but someone else didn't, and they have to go through their second and third attempt.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: So what I didn't appreciate at the time or understand was I was starting to develop a mental gain of how to stay relaxed but yet focused.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really what happens when we shoot a match.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: You shoot a stage, and by the time everybody else shoots that stage, and you go shoot another stage, it's 45 minutes to an hour sometimes.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so that particular skill of learning how to relax, but stay focused, really, I feel like transitioned over to shooting more than anything else on that for me.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_03: So uh I think the lessons learned in there with being able to relax while simultaneously maintaining, you know, sort of a baseline of focus for the upcoming competition is absolutely hugely important.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_03: I learned there was a lot of downtime while we were filming Topshot.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_03: There was a lot of time between competitions, and there was a lot of time with equipment broken.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_03: There was just a lot of time for me to crawl around inside my own head and ice myself.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_03: And it was really difficult, I found a number of times to maintain both calm whilst also trying to focus on what was going to happen next.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes, you know, you you might be in the middle of a competition and the equipment breaks, and okay, we got an hour reset, and then you know, come back in and go again.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_03: So I I learned during that time how important it was to try and find that balance.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know necessarily that I did, but I realized I had to sort of stay in the game, not get inside my own head and and mess things up by talking myself into making silly mistakes, but also not overly hype myself up.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm very interested for both of you, what goes through your head right before you you step up and the buzzer goes off?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, that that's a great question.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: But I want to back up and and share a quick story with you about what we were just talking about.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: And that is, you know, I had the opportunity to become friends and shoot with Rob Latham, probably, you know, the great TGO, right?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: The great one.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: And here's a story when I'm just you know, I'm shooting with him for the first time, and stage is running, and he's always full of laughter and he has great stories.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: So he's in the middle of telling a story when suddenly the RO goes, Rob, you're up.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: And he goes, be right back.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: So he goes, he gets in the box, he looks, and he goes, Okay, I remember, shoots the stage, comes off the stage, comes back to the group, and picks up exactly where he was in the story again.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I was just amazed, I was like, and I asked him later, how do you do this?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: And he goes, Gordon, if you try to stay so sharp or just you know, totally ant up, you won't make it through the whole match mentally.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: So what I do is I get a plan.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: Once I've decided on my plan, I just relax, I have fun.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then when it's time to shoot, I remind myself of my plan and I shoot.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: And the rest is about having fun.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I've tried to as much as I can since that moment embrace that.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, I'm here to have fun.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: I always have fun when I shoot.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I have more fun when I win, but I always have fun.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm sorry, I interrupted the question though.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_03: No, that's a great response.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_03: It is.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, he did.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: So Randy, what about you?
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: So um, I guess I came from this a little bit differently in that um in cowboy action, there's a lot going on.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's targets, um, they have counters because they're shooting steel, so you can't necessarily go look at the paper holes to see if they hit or not.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: So you have counters that are constantly watching, you pick up the brass because you know their reloading is a little bit more complicated, and a lot of people like to pick up the brass because it's very expensive brass.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, there's people that time, there's people that score.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a lot of work to put on a cowboy action match.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I was taught, hey, if you're not shooting, you're working.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then when it's your turn, you own the stage.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so for me, it's a lot of movements, a lot of activity, and I'm always trying to stay on top of things and try to help my squad or my posse or or whoever my teammates are at the time.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: But then when I get up to the line, I try to focus on one thing because you're right, Terry.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: You can kind of spiral and just get overwhelmed with like, oh, I gotta do this and I gotta do this.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just so I try to really focus my mind on one thing.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so for me, the one thing that I've always try to like mentally count down before the buzzer goes off is the sights.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: I just tell myself it's my little like mantra that I kind of hypnotize myself with, and I just think sights, sights, sights until the buzzer goes off and then go on from there.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_03: So I now I'm really curious because that's two very different approaches.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I have found personally, if I am trying to be in the zone, right?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't happen very often because I'm a fun-loving guy too.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_03: But when I'm trying, if somebody else is dilly-dallying around and cracking jokes, I'm not amused.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_03: No, if it's the opposite, if I'm in a fun place and I'm cracking funnies and somebody else is getting annoyed with it, that also entertains me.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_03: So it I wonder how the two of you do at competitions where you're there together.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_03: If Gordon is cracking funnies, Randy does it drive you nuts.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_03: Or is it is it like, okay, that helps me get my uh emotions under control?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_03: I am genuinely curious.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'll I'll I'll take this one.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: So You know, we're both uh big believers in a mental game.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so part of what we do is when you know, you know, you have the shooter, the shooter on deck, and the shooter in the hole.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, as soon as I hear that I'm in the hole, I stop talking, I stop joking around, I start thinking about, hey, remember my stage plan.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: Let's speed da-da-da.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um and before the buzzer, um, you know, my last thoughts are be smooth.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm listening for the buzzer and I'm just telling myself my mantra is be smooth, be smooth.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: And if I'm anywhere in that process in the shooting order and you come up to me to talk to me because you don't know it, I just say, hey, I'm getting ready to shoot.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'll talk to you in just a minute.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: Don't go anywhere.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then I go off on my own.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that helps me, Randy.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, um, to answer your question, Terry, it's been a process.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: There's been a couple matches where, you know, like I gave such a nice answer, and they're gonna throw me under the bus.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: I I can see it's coming.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just gonna say it's a process.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, at the year one mark, there was a couple matches that maybe we didn't talk a whole lot during the match because I needed a little more space.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but no, it's it's I think we've we've benefited each other.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: We've been very lucky.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think he does remind me that this is supposed to be fun because, you know, for for a long time I was raised by very serious people and very dedicated people.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, there was a time when I'd kind of forgotten that it was supposed to be fun.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I think he's he's had a very beneficial effect on me.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: And and maybe in some ways I've reminded him to be slightly more serious.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think I think it's great to have a partner and and I think we grow with each other.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what a beautiful answer.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: I love you.
• 24:00
  unknown: It's great.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_03: It's been a process.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_03: It's been a process of both the guys just lost it.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_03: We're like, yep.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_03: That's like something my wife would say, you have been a process.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: But I I really think it's important because there is certainly a tipping point for me where if I if I start getting too serious, I tend to stiffen up.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_03: I tend to not flow and and move the way I know I could.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_03: And so there's there's certainly an element where I'm like, okay, I'm getting ready, I'm ready, and then just relax, like breathe.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_03: If I had a mantra, it might, it might be similar to you, or it's just okay, now let's just have fun.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_03: Like I've done all the work up till this point.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_03: If I'm now going to shoot this competition or this stage, well, I need to relax enough to let my sort of subconscious do the work for me.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_03: I find that, and you can tell me whether this is true for you guys too.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_03: If I start cognitively trying to mechanically force the movements that I know I need to do in order to shoot well, if I'm doing that consciously, I guarantee I'm gonna screw it up.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_03: But if I'm in that kind of lolly gag and just having fun state of mind, and my subconscious is doing that sort of that work for me, I tend to shoot better.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's it seems like the less cognitive effort I apply, the greater likelihood I'll shoot well.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_03: Is that true for you guys?
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's true up until a point.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I definitely have found myself too distracted where, hey, I'm standing there on the line and I am listening to the jokes behind me and you know, I'm not focused.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I I definitely I I agree that you key you can be too tense, but I know for me personally, I can be too relaxed where like I hear the jokes behind me and I forget a target that I'm supposed to shoot.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think there's a balance point, at least for me, where I I can have fun, but at some point I need to do kind of flip that serious switch and be like, okay, smooth sights, relax.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I definitely believe any time we're consciously shooting during a stage, we're gonna be slower and less effective.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, our subconscious can do a million things at one time, our conscious mind is only one.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: So um there's a great book that I embraced early on in my career.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's with Winning in Mind by Laney Basham.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it worked so well.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I won Nationals that year.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: I went to one of Laney's seminars in Dallas and really embraced that whole thing.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it's true, if I go conscious during a stage, I know I've automatically slowed down.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so we need to, like Randy said, we can be relaxed, but I need to have something that triggers me to go into my subconscious mind.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's part of for me, when okay, I'm in the hole, let's just walk away from everything, and it starts to trigger, hey, I'm getting ready to shoot.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we all get excited, we get nervous, our heartbeat starts beating really fast.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I remind myself that that's a good thing.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: Nervousness is a good thing.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: Don't look at it as negative.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: That just means my body's getting ready to shoot great.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: My muscles are getting ready, my hearing, my eyesight's getting sharper.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: So take that mental approach to it, and you will have a great state.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it certainly helps, I think I found to reframe nervous energy as something that is parallel to excitement.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_03: And I think a lot of it comes down for a lot of people with stress with how they interpret those nervous feelings, because we all get them, especially if you're doing something that matters and is important to you.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_03: The nerves tend to get exacerbated.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_03: And I think if you can frame those nerves and that energy as something being positive rather than the negative, then the chances are you could probably use that adrenaline and that focus to do well.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_03: But it's such a tough thing to do, isn't it, in the moment?
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_03: To to reframe nerves when you know, in reality, no, I'm crap in my pants right now.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_03: This is, you know, you've got that uh moment.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_03: And then you're like, no, this is a good thing, right?
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_03: Just making that switch.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: It it is.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: I I will share a story.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm starting to become a better shooter.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm being put in with the super squads, and I'm very nervous.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm just this who am I to be with the super squad, right?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: And now we have shooting USA and they're filming, and I have a camera sitting off to the side of me watching what I do, similar to what you had to do, right?
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: And um part of uh was winning in mind's thing is you write a statement, an affirmation statement, you read it for 21 days, and it becomes almost automatic for you.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things is about being nervous, I was getting more and more nervous.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: And we were at area six, and I step into the box, and sure enough, I've got shooting USA right here, and I'm at the super squat, and my heart rate is probably 200 beats.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's just huge.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: And um I suddenly said, you know, it's like me to be excited when I get ready to shoot.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna have a great stage.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: And everything went and I had a great stage.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it it became so good that I started stepping into the box and I wasn't getting the heart rate up.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't getting excited, and I had to step back out for a moment and go, okay, you gotta give yourself a little pep talk here to get some stuff going because you're a little too calm.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: So then I stepped back in the box, right?
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, one of the things that, you know, we talk about is you know, you shoot for 25 years, whatever.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: You're not gonna win them all.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: I want to win them all, but I'm not gonna win them all.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so you, you know, how do you take that?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and it's it's a process, it's it's a journey, without a doubt.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_03: So have you ever had that, Randy, where you step into the box and nothing seems to be happening in motion, and you think, damn, I must be slipping.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: No, um, I mean, um for me, it's always still exciting.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: I I I've always joked with Gordon that, hey, the minute it stops being exciting, I'm gonna go take up golf or something like that.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, that's that's the thing that I love.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: For me, it's always exciting.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it just it always brings me back to, you know, 12-year-old me trying something new.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I just I love it.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: I I I think, but maybe for me, the excitement's changed.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so maybe it's less about being nervous, but more about being happy.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm excited because I get to do this.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, stepping into that box, it's it's a different feeling, but it's it's somewhat the same in that I'm just pumped to be here.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_03: Gratitude.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, nothing wrong with that.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_03: Because it is.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you think about other places in the world where you couldn't possibly have this as a career, it just wouldn't happen.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_03: And you get to do that, you know, for your day job.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_03: That's bloody spectacular.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know what I try to tell myself that because it is.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the stars aligned perfectly for whatever reason.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: And and yeah, I am so blessed.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just I'm excited because I could be doing something else.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: I could be baking bread or cleaning floors or you know, taking care of my groceries or whatever, and instead I'm here shooting.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I I try to remember that and and it just makes me happy.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_03: There's absolutely nothing wrong with being grateful for the life you have, and it does help put everything else in perspective, right?
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_03: So when shooters talk about getting faster, what do you think they're normally trying to do?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_03: Is it something to do with the draw speed?
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_03: Is it something to do with a first shot accuracy?
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_03: Is it efficiency and movement?
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_03: Is it just the physiology or is it cognitive?
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_03: Where would you start if somebody says, okay, I want to improve my speed?
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_03: How would you do it?
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, most people think that when they they need to go faster, they need to pull the trigger faster.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really kind of a myth.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we're not really pulling the trigger faster than anybody else, maybe a little bit.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: But what's really is the time saver is everything in between shot to shot.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: So if I'm moving from target to target, the time it takes me to do that movement, whether it be a transition standing still or a movement with my footwork, you know, do I have the gun up?
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: Do I have the sights aligned?
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: As soon as I see the target, is the gun going off?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: Am I under control?
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um any pauses, you know, we want to eliminate any pause where the gun's not moving or I'm not moving, if possible.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: And people really think it's about foot speed and trigger speed, and it's really not.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and again, I have Rob Latham to thank for really he didn't teach me that as much as I noticed it by watching him shoot.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I got to work with him a year later, he just proofed it out for me by showing me again hey, he has a mantra of I want to be the laziest shooter on the range.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: And he doesn't mean by taping or resetting, he's talking about there's no extra movement.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: I do only what's required to shoot all the targets, and I shoot the target as soon as I see the area I want the round to go.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have to see the whole target, I just need to see the area the round needs to go.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that is to me is where all the time saving is.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: And see, I think the time savings for a lot of news shooters is learning to eliminate mistakes.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, sometimes we see these new shooters and they don't have a good plan.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they they've missed targets or they're not sure when they're gonna reload, or, you know, they they just forget and or or they just miss completely, like they don't hit the target.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think the biggest thing that I would suggest to shooters, either new or middle, that are just trying to get better, are don't be afraid to watch those around you, you know, because you can learn so much.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: And by watching other people do stuff, you know, the brain's kind of a funny thing.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: If you think about things in detail, you can trick your brain into thinking you've done stuff.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: There's a great study I read about a basketball team.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: They took a basketball team, they split them in half.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: The first half they had shoot free throws after practice.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: The second half, they said, okay, I want you to sit down on the bleachers, close your eyes, and I want you to imagine shooting a free throw, like in detail, see the ball go through the net.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: The two groups, they improved the exact same amount at the end of the study.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: So you can trick your brain.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: You don't physically have to shoot the stage to kind of walk through it mentally.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: And you don't have to shoot the stage, you can see others shoot the stage and kind of walk through it mentally.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think I think watching others to learn and try to eliminate those mistakes is one of the best ways to improve your time, is just by eliminating mistakes.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, remember your targets, hit your targets, plan your reloads, you're gonna have a great time.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_03: Nice.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_03: I like that.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's funny because I had someone at the uh one of the conferences we were at recently, and he misinterpreted the speed with which I shot one of the smokeless range drills as fast trigger.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_03: And yet when I pointed out how fast I had managed to draw comparative to his, even though I slowed down before placing that first shot to make sure it was going to go where I needed it to go, the the movement from the buzzer going off was faster than his.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_03: I try, I try.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_03: I don't always get it by any stretch, but when I hear the beep, I'm trying to get the the beep, right?
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_03: The right before it re- Yes, before we get to and the thing's trailing off.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_03: I already want to be moving.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I we watched him and he was doing the same thing, and it was uh recall pistol, but he was moving at the end of the beep, and then he kind of had the same speed throughout the entire drill.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_03: From the moment it cleared the holster to coming up and presenting and punching out, it all kind of happened at about the same speed.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_03: And we're like, well, there's opportunity there, I think, as you alluded to, with improve the speed there.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_03: Even if you slow down a half a beat to place the shot, do the first part of that movement as rapidly as possible.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_03: And he did manage to shave off some time, but it was sort of interesting that he thought it, as you said, Gordon, people think it's pressing the trigger faster.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_03: And yes, sometimes you know that's a factor for sure.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_03: But it's also a lot to do with the mechanics leading up to the shot you're about to place.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_03: And I love that about being lazy, do not not wasting a single movement unnecessarily to improve efficiency.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that's gold.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we see a you know, we work with shooters a lot.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: We have the same problem.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: They don't go on the beep, they wait till the end.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they do everything at the same speed rather than, hey, you know, the draw has, you know, four or five components, whatever you want to explain it as.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: And hey, we can do those first two really fast, and then we kind of start tapering into before we make the shot.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting once you point that out to them and show that to them how much time they start saving and they start understanding a little bit about the concept of hey, it's it's not about the trigger speed, it's about being in position.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: And the second one I'll comment on that is when you run to a position around a wall where you have to shoot around a barricade or a cover, a lot of people will run over in a low position, but before they shoot, they will stand all the way up and then shoot because they're used to shooting standing straight up, not from an aggressive stance.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just wasted time.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: And uh again, it's not being lazy either.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_03: Well, no, that, but that like I taught martial arts for a bunch of years, and standing upright was always a massive no-note because you're not in an athletic stance, you can't move quickly.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, your center of balance is all screwed up.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_03: So an athletic stance, and I've had people say, Well, you don't need to get you know that aggressive to shoot a pistol.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, no, you probably don't.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_03: But in my mind, there's an association between a more athletic stance and the capacity to maneuver and move as maybe needed, versus standing upright and losing that connection to movement.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_03: That's probably a you know sort of very narrow distinction, but I think that's usually important that you sort of maintain an athletic stance in order to facilitate being in an athletic or an action-minded set, if that makes any sense.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: I I agree.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: And going back to your statement of the person who said you don't have to have an aggressive stance to shoot a pistol, you don't, but you do if you want to shoot one at speed accurately.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm standing straight up, I can shoot one round at a time very accurately, but if I start trying to shoot a rapid, the gun will start to drive me and push me back because I'm not in an aggressive stance.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then, as you said, being an aggressive stance allows me to move faster and quicker than standing straight up.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it's more efficient.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and then not coming out of that position when you arrive at the next target.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_03: Randy, do you do the same thing?
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_03: Are you are you a kind of a get low and move around, or where do you land on that?
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: No, absolutely.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think to your point, not only is your physical body more in tune with moving quickly if you're already lower to the ground, if you're already leaning forward, you know, your weight's going in the right direction.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: But I, you know, just to echo your point, I think it also improves your mental capability.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you've ever, you know, I know it's not polite to say anymore, but if you've ever been in a fist fight, you want to be in a fist fight with the guy who's leaning back because, you know, he's not aggressive and he's not, you know, into it and he doesn't necessarily want to.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want to be in a fist fight with the guy that's leaning forward and super excited and got his hands up ready to go.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's not the guy you want to fight, because you know, he probably knows what he's doing and he's mentally in that space already.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so you also don't want to fight the guy who puts a mouth guard in to start with.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's just not a good thing.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_03: No, that's the level of preparation that nobody wants to see.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think there is a connection between your physical body and your mental preparedness as well.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like you want to be excited about this.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: You want to be leaning into getting ready to run because it it gets your mind there as well.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_03: I think also there's a hurdle for a lot of people with getting themselves into an athletic stance that feels false or faked.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_03: And now there's discomfort in that.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_03: And it's trying to, you I've always coached people to be, okay, you're just gonna fake this until it starts to feel comfortable, but mentally you'll get there quicker if you're in a position where you feel like you're action-oriented or movement oriented.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_03: Because people tend to be, you know, especially newer shooters, they're standing upright, you know, they're they're rock back in the heels after the second or third shot.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, just just bend into it a little bit, soften the knees, lean forward.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's gonna feel a bit goofy to begin with, but after a while, you'll feel like, okay, I'm running the gun, the gun's not running me.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: Fake it till you make it.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: Been doing that a lot.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think that it's important, you know, because we talk about competitive shooting, but there's also defensive shooting.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: And if you practice from an aggressive stance, um, and you're comfortable from it, no matter what, your body will drive itself into the most aggressive stance that the environment will allow.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: So if it does unfortunately become a defensive situation, I'm not going to be standing up.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there may be a car or whatever in my way, but whatever it is, I will be as low and as aggressive as the environment will allow me to be because I'm comfortable there and it's an added benefit.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, I love that.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_03: So, what do you think people repeatedly practice because it feels productive, but actually probably doesn't move the needle in terms of improving their performance if there is such a thing?
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: Number one thing, there's two things.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: Number one is they always they practice what they're already good at because it makes them feel good.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: And our number one range or number one rule going to the range is we're gonna practice what we're not good at.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so we have a list of what we're gonna practice when we get to the range and we work on that.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: The second thing is people will practice within their comfort zone.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: They want to make the hits.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so the majority of our classes is getting people out of their comfort zone.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: We don't practice we practice at 100 to 110% of our ability.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, how do we grow into a new comfort zone or a new skill set?
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: If you're always shooting at 80 to 90 percent of your ability, then your brain's not gonna get faster.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: You're not gonna understand what you need to do.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it's okay to miss a target in practice.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay to have a bad hit in practice as long as you stop and say, Why did that happen?
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: And what am I gonna do different on this next rep to make the difference?
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: We just don't want to do rep after rep hoping to get better because practice makes permanent.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't make perfect.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: Practice perfect perfect practice makes perfect.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_01: So we see that the majority of the time is people don't realize how fast and accurate they can be until we push them out of their comfort zone.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think the other thing that people do a lot in practice.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Practice thinking it'll make them better is they only shoot matches.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I understand we're all kind of limited on time and money and what we can do, but I think only shooting matches is a mistake because if you have a hiccup in a match, like say you have a swinging target that you miss in the match, if you don't ever go back and practice it, or if you don't ever go back and ask why did that happen, you're not really gonna get better.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so the next time you see that, you may even give yourself kind of a mental handicap going, oh, well, the last swinging target I missed, so you know, I'm probably not gonna hit this one either.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's that's one of the fallacies I see is is oh, well, I want to get better at matches, so I'm gonna shoot his matches.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: But if you never practice anything or or analyze how you did in that match, it's going to be very difficult to get better.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: You'll get better because experience does give you better, but it's gonna be a much slower curve rather than an upward angle.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_03: So it feels like you need to be a little bit bloody-minded, but you've got to balance that with some introspection after the fact.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to have both of those components.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_03: Which is somewhat funny because I think sometimes people will see a mistake and you react one of two ways.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously, there's a myriad of ways they can react, but it it tends to be either a that is gonna be a problem moving forward because I didn't get it right this one time, or it's complacency and it just will it probably won't happen again.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_03: They brush it off rather than revisiting a thing that maybe they're weak at and need that extra work.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_03: But I definitely think there's a there's a place for stepping outside of competitive shooting and experiencing other areas of shooting, because you'll always find, in my opinion, a little something different, maybe from a tactical class that has an impact on how you can shoot competitively and vice versa.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: I I totally agree with that.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um we we always try to tell our students go to as many different classes as you can, as many different instructors as you can afford or have the time to do, because you will learn something from each one of them.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: Even if you only get one small tidbit that improves something, it can have a huge impact on your defensing, defensive shooting skills or your competition skills that you can get to use over and over and over.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: And we just think that that's so important to get as big of a base of knowledge as you can, because when you're on the range, if you have an issue, you have a better chance of figuring out what caused that issue.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, agreed.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_03: So what does Randy do as a shooter that Gordon thinks is almost unfairly instinctive after so many years of watching her shoot?
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: So she can really piss me off by the fact that we can we can I can show her one new thing, or we're both trying to try to learn one new thing.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: She watches me do it, and then she will emulate it immediately, and not only be able to emulate it, but she'll develop that skill that day.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's not, you know, over a lot of practices where I have to work my butt off, you know, doing it over and over.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_01: She can pick something up and just knock it out of the park, and it it just pisses me off.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm happy for her.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: She's awesome, obviously, but it pisses me off.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_03: Does Gordon do anything that that uh has the same impact on you?
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: Lordy, so many things.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: No, just kidding.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, no, I there is one really funny story.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: So, Gordon, uh, he is extremely analytical, and he is a data-driven kind of guy.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like spreadsheets, I think, is his love language.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so he likes to take notes and and keep records.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so one of the first practices we had together, I was working really hard at Still Challenge.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: I really wanted to do well, and I had been struggling for many, many years.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so he's like, okay, well, let's analyze it.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so, for in case your listeners are not familiar with Still Challenge, Still Challenge is a set eight stages.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: They are always the same.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: The targets are measured out to the inch as far as the everywhere you go, it's going to be exactly the same.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_00: They're going to be the same size, the same layout.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so when you shoot it, um, you shoot each stage uh five times and you throw out your worst score.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it really does come down to the tenth of a second.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so he charted all eight stages with me over the course of like three hours.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so he'd have me shoot and he'd pull up the timer and he'd write down every single individual time.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: And by the end of it, I wasn't sure I could hang out with Gordon anymore because it was it was a lot.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um It was brutal.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: It turned out to be amazing because he he was able to show me the individual areas where I could work and improve.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I have to give him props because I was able to go win the ladies' title that year.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: So um it totally worked.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it was a very painful process.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_00: So um sometimes it's worth sticking through the pain.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: He did teach me that, but even to this day, sometimes he wants to chart things down to you know the hundredth of a second.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just like, let's go shoot, come on.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_03: So if you're able to shoot so well after doing that, was there was it just it was a specific piece of data that showed maybe a shortcoming?
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_03: And I am using that term very loosely, but you were able to show a a modicum of weakness in an area because of those numbers, and then work that specific skill set or that specific area of the shoot to improve?
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: So to give you a little bit more detail, so each cell challenge stage is five shots.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and there's always a stop plate.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: So there's one particular plate you have to shoot last.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_00: So what he did is he would record all five of those shots.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so, on example, you might transition from a far right target to a far left target.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so what we were able to do is we were able to take a winning time and compare my time to that winning time.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_00: And let's say the winning time is five seconds and I was shooting it in 5.3.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it might be hard, you know, to think, okay, well, where can I be if you know three tenths of a second faster?
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't know where.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: Do I have to draw faster?
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: Do I have to transition faster?
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because he broke all those times down, we could look and say, well, Randy, it's taking you a second to move from left to right.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it should be taking you less time than that.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so we could practice that, or or like like the um example you gave earlier, you know, on the draw.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, if I'm drawing on this one particular target, you know, it's taking me two seconds.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, if I'm trying to shoot the whole thing in five seconds, two seconds is a lot of time.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: If I could cut, you know, and not a lot.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to cut a whole second off.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: If you can cut a tenth off, you know, and so yeah, by working those numbers down to the very tiny bits, but then it shows you, hey, this is really out of range, or this is really out of range.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: But if you don't look at those tiny numbers, you don't necessarily know that.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_03: Oh no, I I like that.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_03: I just don't know if I have the patience to spend that much time with all the things.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: I could load him out to you.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: I can send him to you, and you can spend the three hours.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_00: He's very good at it.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: So one of the things we do in our classes is you know, the first day of the class, we check everybody's sights, make sure they're on, they're accurate, and then we do four baselines.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the baselines we do is a two-shot draw at 10 yards.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: And we're gonna count you know your points, you know, to add it up.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_01: We'll shoot it five times, we'll take your highest and lowest and throw them out, and we'll average the three.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_01: So let's say your first shot is you know 1.6, and then your split is 40, 0.40.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, after we do our baselines, then we're gonna come back and say, okay, let's work on a more effective draw.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_01: And the hardest thing that we have, or we talk about people, is if you don't chart, if you don't keep a shooter's notebook, then when someone gives you an idea of how to do something faster, you really have no way of knowing if it's working or not because you don't have a baseline of time to work from.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_01: And what we try to do is not show you one way to do something.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: We want to show you as many different ways to do something because we're all different.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_01: We all have different physical strengths, weaknesses, abilities, disabilities.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_01: So Rainey's using method one, I'm using method two.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: Cheat, Terry, you're using a combination of three and one because it works best for you.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_01: But we know it works best for you because we're charting.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: And suddenly that 1.6 straw in a matter of minutes goes to 1.5 or 1.4.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, look, you haven't mastered this yet, but this technique is working for you.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: So now you know this is a technique I want to go spend some time on and invest in because it seems to be working for me.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the other thing is, is hey, we said your your split was 0.4 at 10 yards, that's great, but we just shot this stage.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_01: Here's two 10-yard targets.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_01: Why are they 0.7?
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: We've already established it should be 0.4 on that split, but you're doing 0.7.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_01: What's it holds you accountable now?
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: We have math.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it starts opening up people's eyes and going, well, crap.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it gets them again out of their comfort zone.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_01: So they start developing a new comfort zone, which involves usually a faster time.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, there's there's definitely something about writing all of that data down and having it timed by someone who's looking over your shoulder that is extra pressure.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_03: Most people don't put themselves under.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and we we try to tell our students, hey, there's no right or wrong.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_01: This is simply where you're at.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_01: We're trying to find a baseline, and then we're gonna come back and work it and find a method that works best for you to improve it.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what we do.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's great because you know, the timer doesn't lock.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, we have this book over here, it says your draw was 1.6, now you're doing it 1.3.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, it I can't hide that.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not I'm not BSing you, but it's working for you.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_03: So I am now super curious, especially having seen the interactions between the two of you.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_03: How do you coach your spouse at the range without it turning into basically marriage counseling with ammunition?
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'll take this.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'll answer this first.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh my answer to this is whatever Wady says, I'm gonna agree to.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_00: Oh bad.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_00: So bad.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_03: He says a man been married for many years.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think the biggest lesson we've learned over the years is kind of and uh I've heard of it in other areas of people's, you know, livelihoods.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_00: But I we usually, whenever we're working together, if one person starts talking, it's very important that we ask the, do you want me to listen or do you want me to offer advice?
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's one of the things that's really helped us the most because sometimes you know, you just want to complain, right?
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm having this problem and I I can't hit the target, and and he'll go into fix it mode.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, you know, I don't need you to boss me around, you know, I'm just telling you what's going on.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_00: And and similarly for him, you know, he'll be like, I'm working through this problem, and I'll be like, well, what about and he's like, I have a plan.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_00: I don't need you to like confound me with like more options.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm working a plan, you know.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's one of one of the biggest things we've had to learn in the coaching is like, do you want me to listen or do you want to dance?
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_03: So there's some amazing freedom in that level of communication, right?
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_03: Because you're right.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_03: I do the same thing with my wife.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_03: I'll go downstairs and bitch about whatever's, you know, driven me up the wall today.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_03: And she will start with, am I fixing or am I just listening?
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, good.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_00: See.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_03: And I can make my decision at that point.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes I regret saying, No, I need you to help me figure this out.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_03: But most of the time I'm like, you know, no, I just need to get this off my chest.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_03: I I've got some semblance of a plan.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_03: Just let me bitch for a minute and then I'll go right back to, you know, put my big boy pants back on and, you know, get on with the problem.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_03: But it's interesting.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_03: We we found that out, you know, many years ago that we both have a tendency, I think everybody does, and to some degree, you want to fix it, right?
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_03: You you might see someone struggling with a thing, and you're like, oh, I have an answer, but sometimes they don't want your bloody answer.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_03: They just want to get it off their chest.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_01: It kind of reminds me of the story of you know, the people who play golf, and you're you get paired up with someone to play that you've not played with before, and you know, you hit your first shot and they look at you, I can fix your swing.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_01: You want me to fix your swing?
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_01: No, I'm here to play.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_03: You're like, thank you for sucking all of the fun out of this activity.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I can't wait for you to give me some lessons.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's funny.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's true.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_01: There there have been many times it got tense, and it's because we're both a-type personalities, we're both driven to try to get an end result.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes if there's friction, we just have to back up for a moment, you know, and then go back at it again.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's it's a healthy thing, in my opinion.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, at least finding like for each of you, it's finding, okay, where's that line, right?
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_03: Because I imagine also, as you're both type A, you're both obviously incredible competitors, you've you probably enjoy to a point competing with each other, but I can imagine that also can get old sometimes.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_03: And correct me if I'm wrong.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's my interpretation.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, no, it never gets old.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, it's it's um whether we're doing drills here at the house or you know, on the range or shooting a match, we're you know, at the end every day, we're looking at, hey, what can we do better?
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_01: Who's in the lead?
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_01: Who shot more alphas, who had the lowest time.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it's just it's part of the fun for us.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_01: It really is.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's part of the fun.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and I think we don't always compete head to head.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of the times we are shooting different equipment or, you know, and so, you know, we may not have the same guns, we may not have the same number of bullets in our gun, we may not have, you know, for for a variety of reasons, we're not always competing head to head.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we've both been doing this long enough that we also can remember at the end of the day, the real person you're competing with is yourself.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I think kind of remembering that allows you to have joy for the other person when they have beat their own times because we do have all those great analytics.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Gordon.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, you you can have joy for someone in doing well for themselves that doesn't take away from your own joy and doing well for yourself.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think uh a good follow-up to that is um in my career there was a national title I lost by a tenth of a second or two tenths, I can't quite remember.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_01: And somebody asked me how I felt about it.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, I'm extremely happy.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_01: And they asked me, Well, how can that be?
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Well, my goal is to shoot every stage at 90 to 95% of my ability.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I did that.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_01: I shot all 12 stages between that range.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_01: I just got beat by somebody who was a little bit better today.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so while I'm disappointed I lost, I'm extremely happy in how I performed.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_01: And consequently, there have been other matches that, hey, I won the whole thing, I beat everybody, but I wasn't very happy because I knew that I didn't perform at my level.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so it goes back to Raydi's point, we're always really competing against ourselves and holding ourselves accountable to how well we can perform.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it gets down to performance on demand.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, can you do that 90 to 95% on every stage?
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_03: So if you were just lucky enough and to be standing in front of a developing shooter and there was one principle you were gonna share with them to help guide them to improve over the next 12 months, what would it be for each of you?
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think the biggest thing that I would remind them is if this is something you'd like to do, plan it in.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because if if you make it part of your everyday, your every week, your every month, you are going to see results and you're going to have fun with it.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_00: And if if you don't plan it into your life and make it a priority, then I don't think you'll do well because I do think shooting is a perishable skill.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's something that you have to do regularly if you want to improve and if you want to have a good skill set.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you know, it doesn't have to be anything crazy.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be, you know, I'm gonna practice six hours every day.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, but just if if you plan in, hey, you know, Saturday mornings I'm gonna go to the range and you know, make the notes and make a commitment.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think that that's how you'll be able to build improvement is by that repetition, by making it part of who you are.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I I agree with that.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_01: And uh the other thing I would add to that is learn how to do performance analysis.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_01: And performance analysis is comparing our known ability to how we just performed.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't, you know, not comparing it to my buddy or anybody else.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, football when we're practiced, you just do reps over and over, and they tell you, hey, keep, you know, do this, but do it over and over.
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that's how we learned at that point was through repetition.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_01: But if we take the time, if you do a one-shot draw, and before you break your grip, before you look at the timer, you know, do you take that three to five seconds of, hey, do I have the right grip?
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_01: Am I hey am I on an aggressive stance?
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_01: All that that information that goes away as soon as we move, but if you analyze it, the hole in the target's gonna stay there until I tape it.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_01: And the second thing is that I can do everything wrong and still get an alpha or a zero or whatever you're you're shooting for, and you're not gonna know it.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_01: You're just gonna look at the time and you can look at at the hit rather than analyzing what did I just do?
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, what do I need to do different on this rep?
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it just takes three to five seconds.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_01: And if we do that and we think about before an ex rep, your learning curve will go dramatically higher than just trying to learn through repetition.
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_03: So do you both spend some time uh recording yourselves when you're actually shooting?
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_03: I've done that myself.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_03: I've just set up the camera, I look at the draw striker, look at where I end up presenting, and then try to make corrections because I do find it can be difficult sometimes after the shot is fired to freeze up at that moment to stop and then go, okay, well, where was my grip, etc.?
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_03: Even though it's probably something I should work on.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_03: But if then if I recorded it, just put it on my cell phone and then you know watched it back.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_03: Look, my support hand was lower than it probably should have been, my punch out wasn't where it needed to be, or maybe my support hand wasn't picking up the gun, you know, at the right height or the right position for a great shot.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_03: So do you use uh videography or anything like that for performing for either yourself or your students?
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_01: So when I first started, we didn't have iPhones.
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_01: So you had to set up the recorder, right?
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_01: So that that took up a lot of time, and I didn't have that in my life experience.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't use it then.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_01: But what Randy and I like to do for ourselves is we record matches or stages and matches because we're under stress.
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_01: So if I have been working in practice when I'm moving to keep the gun up high, you know, I'm in a in a match and I dropped the gun when I was moving.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that tells me right there, that's why I need to keep, I need to continue working on that in practice.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we don't post a lot of our quote videos of stages because they're boring.
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_01: We don't shoot them from a point of view of excitement.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm zoomed in on where's her feet coming in at a certain position, or where is her, you know, does she have the gun up out ready right before she gets to the barricade or whatever?
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_01: So that's how we use it.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_01: When we're in a class, if a student's having a particular trouble understanding what we're trying to explain to them, then we do a great job of using a video because we do learn faster by seeing something visual on it.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and Randy does a great job in those cases of really explaining what to look for as she's showing in the video.
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_01: She does a great job.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's the skill.
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_00: I I I think you're right, Terry.
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think in today's day and age, if you're a brand new shooter starting today, absolutely invest in the iPhone with the really big memory and buy a tripod and set it up so that you can wash yourself.
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's probably the biggest thing that I was gifted, you know, from the the fates or whatever, is because I started shooting at a young age.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_00: I was shooting with my grandfather.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so I had a shooting partner for like the first 10 years of my career.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like I never went to the range without my grandfather because, you know, I couldn't carry the guns or drive the car or anything else.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I went with him.
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_00: And what we found is that not only did he coach every shot that I shot, but I watched every shot that he shot.
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I almost got a double dose of learning because I got to see him and see what he was doing.
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I've I've learned since I learned by watching.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there's a lot of different ways people learn, but I learned by seeing.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's why I can try to drive Gordon nuts today, is I can see what he does.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I've had so much experience in seeing it and then being able to reproduce it in my own kinesthetic awareness that, you know, it's definitely, I think watching is one of the best things that you can do for your learning.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I encourage shooters.
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, when you go to the range, you know, yeah, you want to have fun and talk and things like that, but you want to watch everybody who's shooting because that's just more training on your brain as to what you're doing.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, invest in that iPhone.
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_00: If I were starting over today, I would do a lot more videography because it is such a great tool.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_01: Cheater.
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_01: Shooting partner for 11 years.
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_01: Cheater.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and then I got to be your shooting partner.
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I got to see the way you did things, which is, you know, it's been really a blessing.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's a disadvantage, but you know, anyway.
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_03: I want to thank both of you for joining me today because this has been an amazing opportunity to learn from two people who obviously uh the level you guys shoot at competitively is already amazing.
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_03: The fact that you're a couple doing it is even more amazing.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_03: And the fact that your paths to get there were so different was uh was priceless.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you very much for joining me today.
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_01: We've enjoyed it and we we love sharing shooting.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's obviously our passion.
• 1:07:58
  SPEAKER_01: So uh anytime we can get more people involved or do things, we want to be a part of it.
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_00: It was our pleasure, and we we hope maybe someday we get to do it again.
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_03: So for those who would love to come and join you for classes, where do you want them to go?
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_01: So we have a website, it's uh GLC Shooting Academy.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's kind of a you know a long word of mouth there.
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um we don't do a whole lot of classes anymore.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_01: We mostly do private training.
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we if you want us to come host a class in your area, contact, reach out to us.
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_01: We still do those.
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_01: We did three of those this year.
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_01: Our schedule's just kind of full with shooting as many matches as we do.
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um that and still having fine time for for family to go visit them and then you know, time for ourselves to go on vacation.
• 1:08:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we end up we end up traveling 35 weekends a year.
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so it gets to be a bit much on that.
• 1:08:52
  SPEAKER_01: But we're if we can fit it in, we'll be more than happy to do it.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_03: Sure, there's someone listening now is like, yes, I would love to come along and have you um create all the data that's gonna help me.
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, one one of the things that we do that's kind of unique.
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_01: Go ahead, Ready.
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_00: I was just gonna say, don't worry, I'm there to make sure you get plenty of shooting and not just data.
• 1:09:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_03: So it was me I was thinking of, I'm like, you know what, I probably need that.
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, one of my frustrations when I started, there wasn't anybody really teaching competition.
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_01: It was just offensive.
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I had to really look out to find people who were shooting uh competitively.
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_01: But you would go to a class and there's 35 people, and you're not really getting a lot of one-on-one, you're just shooting the same drills over and over and over.
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't like that.
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_01: And my degree is actually in physical education.
• 1:09:46
  SPEAKER_01: So once I started applying that to shooting, wow, I got better.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we only take nine students max in a class, and you have both of us, and we give you a shooter's notebook that everything we talk about in the class is already written in there for notes.
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_01: And we have the students write in it, like if I say something specifically to you, Terry, about one of your reloads, hey, you need to reload up higher.
• 1:10:11
  SPEAKER_01: We encourage you to go back and write that in the book.
• 1:10:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, all the baselines or the spreadsheets that we use are in there for you to take with, but we also email you those spreadsheets afterwards so that you can continue to use them if you want, or you can modify them how it works best for you.
• 1:10:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we put a lot of time and effort into it, um, but we get great results out of it in a very short period of time.
• 1:10:36
  SPEAKER_01: So we really enjoy doing it.
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_01: If anything, Randy has to remind me to stop to take a break because I just get on a roll and I keep going, you know, and she's like, you gotta give them a bathroom break, okay?
• 1:10:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's been three hours.
• 1:10:50
  SPEAKER_03: I think learning from the both of you would be an incredible experience.
• 1:10:53
  SPEAKER_03: I know there's only three classes maybe per year, but I think everyone would would come along leaps and bounds in their shooting skills by attending one if they're able to, or maybe just following you on social media and watching how you compete, both of you, because obviously you have achieved uh an amazing standard of shooting.
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_03: So again, thanks for joining me for today's podcast.
• 1:11:15
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 1:11:16
  SPEAKER_03: We appreciate it.
• 1:11:17
  SPEAKER_03: All right, thanks to everyone who tuned in for this episode.
• 1:11:19
  SPEAKER_03: Depending on where you watch, like, share, subscribe, your support.
• 1:11:23
  SPEAKER_03: We really do appreciate it.
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_03: And until next time, uh get to the range, take down some data on yourselves, practice, video record, and see if you can improve using some of the golden nuggets that we've shared on this episode today.
• 1:11:37
  SPEAKER_03: All right, thanks everyone for tuning in.
• 1:11:38
  SPEAKER_03: I'll see you next time.
• 1:11:39
  SPEAKER_03: Cheers