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Life Defenders - A Birth Mom Explains Why Adoption Is Both Beautiful And Hard · WOAY Podcasts

• 0:03
  Victor Nieves: I have uh a niece and a nephew who were both adopted through the foster care system.
• 0:07
  Victor Nieves: And for the nephew, he lived on the streets for the first several years of his life in drug tents.
• 0:12
  Victor Nieves: And so it was a terrible situation for him.
• 0:14
  Victor Nieves: Just an absolutely horrible situation.
• 0:16
  Victor Nieves: The greatest thing that could ever happen to him was for him to be adopted into a loving family.
• 0:20
  Victor Nieves: As we've said many times on the show, adoption is one of the most loving things that we see in our society, both for the children who are placed into a loving home, and also in the case of the parent who may be lovingly placing their child into a home.
• 0:48
  Victor Nieves: As we celebrate adoption across the country, we're joined today by a wonderful guest, Janelle Basham.
• 0:54
  Victor Nieves: She is the executive director of Brave Love, a national organization dedicated to changing the perception of adoption through education, storytelling, and support.
• 1:04
  Victor Nieves: Janelle, thank you so much for joining us today.
• 1:06
  Janelle Basham: Well, thank you so much for having me.
• 1:07
  Victor Nieves: Absolutely.
• 1:08
  Victor Nieves: It's it's a pleasure, and I couldn't think of a more important time uh to be having this conversation.
• 1:12
  Victor Nieves: If you don't mind, I think the best place for us to start today, as always, is just with your story.
• 1:16
  Janelle Basham: Sure.
• 1:16
  Janelle Basham: I have the gift of hindsight.
• 1:19
  Janelle Basham: And it's such a blessing to be able to look back and see the journey and see the highs and the lows and the good and the bad.
• 1:26
  Janelle Basham: I found out I was pregnant at 16.
• 1:29
  Janelle Basham: So that was right before my senior year of high school when life is supposed to be really fun.
• 1:33
  Janelle Basham: You're looking forward to graduation and prom.
• 1:36
  Janelle Basham: And I found myself in a situation where I was trying to navigate what does life look like, not only for me, but the little life that I was carrying inside of me.
• 1:44
  Janelle Basham: And so at the very young age of 16, I had to make some really, really tough and hard decisions that I knew would impact everyone in my family.
• 1:53
  Janelle Basham: What I know now is that it has impacted generations.
• 1:56
  Janelle Basham: So I just was very grateful for the nuggets that came into my life from a very young age.
• 2:03
  Janelle Basham: I can remember sitting on the front porch with my grandmother in South Jersey and watching my neighbors pull up.
• 2:09
  Janelle Basham: Uh, and they got out of the car with a baby and me looking over and saying, Nana, where did this baby come from?
• 2:14
  Janelle Basham: And she explained to me what adoption was, and they were welcoming a child into their home.
• 2:19
  Janelle Basham: So that was my first introduction into adoption.
• 2:22
  Janelle Basham: Fast forward, um, right before I found out I was pregnant, there was a couple in my church who had been uh very vocal about their infertility journey.
• 2:32
  Janelle Basham: And as a teenager, to see the hurt, the love, the hope that they had to grow their family, and then to see them welcome a child into their home.
• 2:44
  Janelle Basham: I actually was a babysitter for that child and can remember one night as they went out to dinner or had some kind of fun evening out, I was holding the baby, rocking it to sleep, and just remember thinking somewhere in the world out there is a woman who would do anything to change places with me.
• 3:00
  Janelle Basham: And I didn't know what she looked like.
• 3:01
  Janelle Basham: I didn't know her name.
• 3:02
  Janelle Basham: But that was my first impression or thoughts of who these women are that make adoption plans.
• 3:09
  Janelle Basham: So when it came around to me facing my own unplanned pregnancy, adoption was something that I considered right from the very beginning.
• 3:17
  Janelle Basham: It didn't make it any easier, but it was something that I wasn't scared to consider.
• 3:23
  Janelle Basham: I went into it with eyes wide open on what adoption could look like.
• 3:27
  Janelle Basham: I flirted with both an adoption plan and a parenting plan for now who I know is my daughter, and ultimately made an adoption plan.
• 3:37
  Janelle Basham: And, you know, I has it been easy?
• 3:40
  Janelle Basham: No.
• 3:40
  Janelle Basham: Has it been beautiful from my perspective?
• 3:43
  Janelle Basham: Absolutely.
• 3:44
  Janelle Basham: And I just am very, very thankful that I can say now with the gift of hindsight that it it turned out okay.
• 3:50
  Victor Nieves: Well, Janelle, it sounds like in your story, adoption was kind of always an option.
• 3:53
  Victor Nieves: And, you know, we hear a lot of times people act like it's not.
• 3:56
  Victor Nieves: They and and I can understand, I mean, this is a big decision.
• 3:58
  Victor Nieves: So I'm not trying to say this in a judgmental way, but sometimes it's just not top of mind.
• 4:02
  Victor Nieves: You know, the abortion industry, they certainly don't present that as an option.
• 4:05
  Victor Nieves: They make it seem like your only two options are you have to have this horrible suffering experience, you know, that's the way that they always frame it, or you have to kill an innocent child.
• 4:13
  Victor Nieves: And so for you, I guess it was those nuggets.
• 4:15
  Victor Nieves: It was just kind of growing up and being around it anyways.
• 4:18
  Victor Nieves: What advice do you have for people who it's just not top of mind for them?
• 4:21
  Janelle Basham: Sure.
• 4:21
  Janelle Basham: Well, adoption through the years, through the media, it presents it as the adoptive parents are the saviors, the adoptee is, you know, put up on this pedestal that's supposed to make everybody happy and fulfilled in life.
• 4:33
  Janelle Basham: And then the birth parent is a villain.
• 4:35
  Janelle Basham: I can't stand Hallmark movies or lifetime movies when it's like, oh, there's a woman in the bushes that's gonna come and steal the baby back.
• 4:43
  Janelle Basham: Like that's not accurate.
• 4:44
  Janelle Basham: And so I wish through the years that people would look at what does adoption really look like?
• 4:50
  Janelle Basham: And um, what does it mean to carry the title of birth parent?
• 4:55
  Janelle Basham: We have all heard the stories from their grandmothers and their aunt's best friend of a negative adoption story.
• 5:00
  Janelle Basham: And there are negative adoption stories out there, but there's also beautiful stories out there.
• 5:05
  Janelle Basham: So any woman who is finding herself in, you know, trying to figure out what do I do now, I want her to consider all of her options, looking at the good and the bad of all of them and being informed on what each option looks like.
• 5:19
  Janelle Basham: We're all going to carry lifelong regrets or joys of whatever decision we make.
• 5:25
  Janelle Basham: And so really weighing out what does that look like moving forward.
• 5:28
  Victor Nieves: Yeah.
• 5:28
  Victor Nieves: And, you know, I mean, it's also, if we're being totally honest here, it adoption is not the correct option for everybody, but it is something to consider.
• 5:34
  Victor Nieves: You know, it that's one of the other things that the abortion industry, they just lie all the time.
• 5:38
  Victor Nieves: They misrepresent everything as much as they possibly can.
• 5:41
  Victor Nieves: They make it seem like, oh, now, you know, on the flip side, they'll say, well, pro-lifers are just trying to force everybody to adopt.
• 5:46
  Victor Nieves: They're just trying to obviously that is not the case.
• 5:48
  Victor Nieves: There are circumstances where it's not.
• 5:50
  Victor Nieves: It's it's just not the right move.
• 5:51
  Victor Nieves: I mean, I don't want people to just willy-nilly start placing their children for adoption or to start adopting children willy-nilly without thinking things through and actually being prepared for it.
• 5:59
  Victor Nieves: So you have this unique story.
• 6:01
  Victor Nieves: Is this what leads you to now being the executive director of Brave Love?
• 6:05
  Janelle Basham: Absolutely.
• 6:06
  Janelle Basham: So, my story, it's really interesting.
• 6:08
  Janelle Basham: Part of my journey, also, once I found out I was pregnant, I chose to move to a maternity home.
• 6:13
  Janelle Basham: So I spent six months living with 15-ish at a time, um, pregnant young women.
• 6:20
  Janelle Basham: That is quite an experience in itself.
• 6:23
  Janelle Basham: And so went through the maternity home while I was there, really had that experience of making a parenting plan, making an adoption plan, and figuring out what was the best option.
• 6:34
  Janelle Basham: After that, I went on to school.
• 6:36
  Janelle Basham: And after finishing my college, I actually went to work at the same adoption agency that I had used for the placement of my daughter, which was kind of groundbreaking because not many agencies were hiring birth parents.
• 6:48
  Janelle Basham: This would have been back in '99, not to date myself or anything, but this would have been back in the late 90s.
• 6:55
  Janelle Basham: And so to have a birth parent on staff and to be a voice for these individuals making these plans and to say, okay, this is what post-placement support can look like, and we need to start support groups.
• 7:05
  Janelle Basham: And it was just an amazing experience.
• 7:07
  Janelle Basham: After doing that for about 11 years, I was asked to come back to the maternity home that I had once lived at, and I was the executive director there.
• 7:16
  Janelle Basham: So changed that program into one that was more supportive for women also making parenting plans.
• 7:22
  Janelle Basham: I am a big believer in that adoption isn't the only option out there, that women obviously have every opportunity to parent and should explore that option.
• 7:33
  Janelle Basham: And so it was really important for me at the maternity home that women had that opportunity that if they wanted to parent, let's figure out wraparound services and how we can do this so that everyone would be successful.
• 7:43
  Victor Nieves: Janelle, why do you think it was that at that time it wasn't so common to have a birth parent?
• 7:48
  Janelle Basham: On staff?
• 7:49
  Victor Nieves: Yeah.
• 7:49
  Janelle Basham: Oh, that's a really good question.
• 7:51
  Janelle Basham: Um wow, you stumped me on that one.
• 7:54
  Janelle Basham: Um it's really, really hard as a birth parent to be in this space.
• 7:59
  Janelle Basham: And so it takes a lot of strength and vulnerability to walk in every day and show up and share your story and know that you're gonna be criticized for things that you say or how you say it.
• 8:12
  Janelle Basham: And so stepping into that role is you're reliving your own trauma.
• 8:17
  Janelle Basham: You know, I went through the hospital experience where I will never go through anything like that again in my life.
• 8:23
  Janelle Basham: And I've gone through really hard things since the placement of my daughter.
• 8:27
  Janelle Basham: Nothing compares with choosing to leave a child in the hospital and just hoping that everything's gonna work out.
• 8:34
  Janelle Basham: And um to then flip it as part of an adoption agency team and be the one going in and working with these women in the hospital and being the one to say, okay, it's it's time to leave now.
• 8:47
  Janelle Basham: My heart was breaking knowing exactly what that woman was about to go through.
• 8:53
  Janelle Basham: And so it's really, really tough to be there.
• 8:56
  Janelle Basham: But I think it's important for birth parents to be a part of that conversation and to be active with agencies, especially when it comes to what does life look like after a placement?
• 9:06
  Victor Nieves: Well, I mean, the birth parents are half of the equation.
• 9:08
  Victor Nieves: So to not have them in the conversation, it would do a great disservice just to getting an accurate picture of what's actually happening.
• 9:13
  Victor Nieves: I mean, if you only get one perspective of it, then you can't really, you know, if there's nobody in the room who's been in those shoes, right?
• 9:19
  Victor Nieves: You are you're definitely missing a piece of it.
• 9:21
  Victor Nieves: Is it is it harder, I suppose, from the internal pressure, or is it harder from external pressure?
• 9:26
  Victor Nieves: You've mentioned, I mean, there's several examples we could go through culturally where birth parents can be shamed.
• 9:31
  Victor Nieves: You know, you talk about like some of the Hallmark movies where it's a very uh I mean, not to not to throw too much shade at Hallmark, but yeah, I mean, you're right.
• 9:38
  Victor Nieves: I mean, you see some of these videos in the movies and stuff, and it's like, well, there's the bad guy, which in many cases, as is the case in your story, it in many cases that was the most loving thing that could possibly be done.
• 9:48
  Victor Nieves: I I think it's a different story, not to get up on a soapbox, but I think it's a different story if somebody just decides for no good reason, uh, you know, I like if somebody has a child for three years and then just decides, hey, this thing's expensive, or I'm just gonna place it in a different home.
• 10:01
  Victor Nieves: I, you know, I would be very I don't know about that.
• 10:03
  Victor Nieves: But if it's, you know, a situation where this is the most loving thing because of the circle, because you want to give that child the best life possible, that's not a villain.
• 10:11
  Victor Nieves: That's not somebody who's doing something evil.
• 10:13
  Victor Nieves: That's actually a profound act of love for your child.
• 10:15
  Victor Nieves: I mean, that is like, holy cow, that's that's extremely loving.
• 10:18
  Victor Nieves: So we get the villainization of birth parents.
• 10:21
  Victor Nieves: Sure.
• 10:21
  Victor Nieves: So, like you mentioned, you know, you get some comments and stuff from people who they might say something.
• 10:25
  Victor Nieves: And it and at times, I think a little bit of grace is due in all directions here because at times you don't want to say the wrong thing.
• 10:30
  Victor Nieves: You don't want to like it, feels like in this conversation you could be walking on eggshells because you might say, uh, for example, you might say give a child up for adoption.
• 10:38
  Victor Nieves: I've heard often it's better to say place because it's not that you're just giving it up like you would use clothes.
• 10:43
  Victor Nieves: I mean, this is your child, you're loving them dearly.
• 10:45
  Victor Nieves: So is it the external pressure or is it the internal kind of having to go through what was obviously a very traumatic thing?
• 10:51
  Janelle Basham: Sure.
• 10:51
  Janelle Basham: I think it's both.
• 10:52
  Janelle Basham: I think it's both.
• 10:53
  Janelle Basham: And there's, you know, the comments that we hear of when people who I might interact with, they'll say, Oh, you're a birth..., oh, I saw that movie Juno.
• 11:01
  Janelle Basham: I'm like, not really like my story, but you know, we can build upon that.
• 11:06
  Janelle Basham: And then we have the situations where just I think about um when my daughter, so I have a now 23-year-old daughter, and when she was very young, we were walking into um, I was walking with her into the school, and I had a ton of donuts, and I was taking them to the my son's classroom, and another mom came up and she's like, Oh, wow, how many kids do you have?
• 11:26
  Janelle Basham: And my daughter, in her maybe four or five years of age, said, Oh, mommy had three, but she gave one away.
• 11:36
  Janelle Basham: And I'm like, Great, awesome.
• 11:38
  Janelle Basham: I'm the PTA president.
• 11:40
  Janelle Basham: Like, so I think it's just that are we on eggshells?
• 11:43
  Janelle Basham: We always have to be ready.
• 11:44
  Janelle Basham: Um, my daughter didn't mean anything by that.
• 11:46
  Janelle Basham: And that way she was honoring her sister.
• 11:48
  Janelle Basham: But then you just look at this woman think, okay, I just wanted to see where you were going with the donut.
• 11:53
  Janelle Basham: So I think it's external and internal, like to beat myself up in that moment, to stand there and be like, wow, there's a lot of shame in that moment, to have people say, I could never do that.
• 12:04
  Janelle Basham: You never know what you can do until you're in that situation.
• 12:07
  Janelle Basham: I don't think I will ever say that to anybody, ever.
• 12:10
  Janelle Basham: Because in those moments of crisis and trauma, it's you do the best thing that you can do in that moment.
• 12:17
  Janelle Basham: Yeah.
• 12:18
  Janelle Basham: So I think it's external and internal.
• 12:20
  Victor Nieves: Yeah.
• 12:20
  Victor Nieves: Well, and uh on a personal note, just a family note, a anecdotal story from mine.
• 12:24
  Victor Nieves: My family has definitely been involved in the foster system and the adoption system.
• 12:28
  Victor Nieves: And and one of the examples, I I have uh a niece and a nephew who were both adopted through the foster care system.
• 12:33
  Victor Nieves: And for the nephew, he lived on the streets for the first several years of his life in drug tents.
• 12:38
  Victor Nieves: Um, and so it was a terrible situation for him, just an absolutely horrible, horrible situation.
• 12:43
  Victor Nieves: The greatest thing that could ever happen to him was for him to be adopted into a loving family that can be there and care for him.
• 12:48
  Victor Nieves: And it's not to say that, you know, obviously the circumstances were what the circumstances were, but at the end of the day, his birth mother was involved in him being placed in a loving home.
• 12:57
  Victor Nieves: That was an act of love.
• 12:58
  Victor Nieves: You know, you can make what you want of the whole situation, but that piece of it is an act of love.
• 13:02
  Victor Nieves: And so the vilification of it, I obviously think, does a great disservice.
• 13:05
  Victor Nieves: We've kind of touched on it, I suppose, but if you could summarize what do you want people to know about the adoption process?
• 13:11
  Victor Nieves: If if there was something like, I don't know, maybe there's a big don't say this, or maybe there's a big do say that, or what would be the one thing?
• 13:17
  Janelle Basham: Please don't say we gave our children away.
• 13:20
  Janelle Basham: Please don't.
• 13:20
  Janelle Basham: Um, they're not a commodity that's just like, oh yes, I chose this family.
• 13:24
  Janelle Basham: About the adoption process, people will say, oh, it's beautiful.
• 13:27
  Janelle Basham: It's beautiful.
• 13:28
  Janelle Basham: And it can be.
• 13:30
  Janelle Basham: It can be very, very beautiful, but it takes a lot of work and a lot of grace.
• 13:34
  Janelle Basham: I always want to see birth parents be honored for their role, for the story, whatever happened to get them to a place where they have to make this plan for their child.
• 13:47
  Janelle Basham: No matter what the circumstances are, they deserve honor for what they did and for the role that they play in the child's life.
• 13:54
  Janelle Basham: Even if they have no communication with the child or are dealing with addiction, like they still need to be honored and respected.
• 14:01
  Janelle Basham: I love it when adoptive parents talk about how they adore the birth family, even if they are struggling in addiction or having their own um issues that they're dealing with, just to hear the unconditional love that they have for the birth parents, the bio, first parents, whatever title they have to that child, it it just it just shows the unconditional love and grace that we can give each other as humans.
• 14:22
  Victor Nieves: Well, Janelle, we we've talked a little bit about some of these social pressures and some of the bad.
• 14:26
  Victor Nieves: If we change gears a little bit into the good, I'm sure you have a plethora of personal stories that you could share of just all of the greatest.
• 14:33
  Victor Nieves: When you, from your experience, having you know lived your life and walked in your shoes, when you think about adoption, what are the good stories?
• 14:40
  Victor Nieves: What are the things that are heartwarming that make you think, yeah, that is why I do the work that I do?
• 14:46
  Janelle Basham: Why I get in front of my computer every day is when I made my adoption plan for my daughter, my world was so small.
• 14:52
  Janelle Basham: It was like me, this child that I was carrying, my parents, my sister.
• 14:56
  Janelle Basham: And I had no idea how huge this was gonna be.
• 15:00
  Janelle Basham: And my why is now not because of my daughter, but because of my grandson.
• 15:05
  Janelle Basham: So my daughter is an amazing mom and has made me a grandmother.
• 15:10
  Janelle Basham: And to see him understand adoption, to see him love his whole extended family, birth family, adoptive family, everybody's feeling like it's just huge.
• 15:22
  Janelle Basham: And I just sit there and I'm like, okay, I went through so much hurt and pain for her.
• 15:27
  Janelle Basham: And it made sense.
• 15:28
  Janelle Basham: Like I would do all of that pain and hurt all over again.
• 15:31
  Janelle Basham: But now to add on, man, this is also him and other kids.
• 15:35
  Janelle Basham: And, you know, where does this go in his life?
• 15:37
  Janelle Basham: All because I went through some horrible, horrible, sad, sad times, I would do it all over again.
• 15:42
  Janelle Basham: And that's my why.
• 15:43
  Janelle Basham: Sitting with other women as well who have gone on this journey, who have said, I haven't met another birth mom before.
• 15:49
  Janelle Basham: And it's been 15 years since the placement of my child, and be like, oh no, there's community out here.
• 15:56
  Janelle Basham: And I'm just so glad to connect with those women and say, you're not alone in this journey.
• 16:00
  Victor Nieves: Well, as you talk about it, I mean, I can imagine over the years the development in this space because, you know, as you talked about, it wasn't that long ago that there weren't very many birth moms involved.
• 16:10
  Victor Nieves: And then it also, you know, you run into people and they say, Well, I haven't, I haven't met another in years and years and years.
• 16:15
  Victor Nieves: What are some of the things that have changed over the years?
• 16:18
  Janelle Basham: Sure.
• 16:19
  Janelle Basham: I talk a lot about the ripple effect and how one woman, one person finding their voice just it just ripples out.
• 16:26
  Janelle Basham: And I feel like we're really in that ripple effect era for birth parents.
• 16:31
  Janelle Basham: Two years ago, I'm like trying to figure out what year it is right now.
• 16:34
  Janelle Basham: I connected with the Replanted conference.
• 16:38
  Janelle Basham: And they are based out of the Chicago area.
• 16:40
  Janelle Basham: They have a conference each year and connected with the people putting that together.
• 16:45
  Janelle Basham: I was like, hey, is there space for the birth mom voice here?
• 16:47
  Janelle Basham: And it's it's mostly for foster adoptive parents.
• 16:50
  Janelle Basham: But I'm like, it's really important that the birth parents have a voice in this education weekend conference as well.
• 16:56
  Janelle Basham: It was, if I remember correctly, the first year I went, it was three birth moms that attended.
• 17:02
  Janelle Basham: And then I just got back from it, and there were, I think, five birth moms there.
• 17:07
  Janelle Basham: And it's like, okay, next year, are we gonna have seven or eight?
• 17:10
  Janelle Basham: Are we gonna have more?
• 17:12
  Janelle Basham: Um, I think also with social media, a lot of women and birth parents, birth fathers are finding their voice and sharing their stories.
• 17:20
  Janelle Basham: Brave Love launched about 14 years ago, and one of our goals was to share honest stories of adoption.
• 17:27
  Janelle Basham: And that is just it's a ripple effect.
• 17:29
  Janelle Basham: I can't say that that's all because of Brave Love, but we have over 80 some videos of true stories of people sharing, like what was adoption like for them from their perspective.
• 17:40
  Janelle Basham: And it just has rippled out to social media, people finding their voice, sharing their stories, adoptive moms sharing stories of what it's like to be connected with the birth family, adoptees talking about their relationship with the birth parents.
• 17:53
  Janelle Basham: And it's like, wow, something beautiful is really happening.
• 17:55
  Janelle Basham: And I'm grateful to be in this space during this era of adoption.
• 18:01
  Victor Nieves: You know, you mentioned uh social media, and lately it's very interesting.
• 18:04
  Victor Nieves: I don't know if it's just my, you know, the algorithms are kind of weird.
• 18:07
  Victor Nieves: I don't know if it's just my thing or not.
• 18:09
  Victor Nieves: I've seen people who are just attacking adoption.
• 18:12
  Victor Nieves: And it's very surprising to me.
• 18:13
  Victor Nieves: And I never it never makes much sense.
• 18:14
  Victor Nieves: Normally I can figure out when you look not to go back to the bad in this case, but yeah, thinking of social media, you know, it cuts both ways.
• 18:20
  Victor Nieves: We have the blessings and then, you know, there's also the unique challenges.
• 18:23
  Victor Nieves: What are the things that you see, like the arrows that are coming your way or coming the way of adoption at large?
• 18:29
  Victor Nieves: Because I see it happen and I think, what in the world?
• 18:32
  Victor Nieves: Why would anybody have an issue, especially like if they could sit and talk with you?
• 18:36
  Victor Nieves: So what are those arrows that they uh sling at you?
• 18:39
  Janelle Basham: There are a lot of icky parts of adoption and uh agencies or facilitators who have made adoption in industry.
• 18:47
  Janelle Basham: And I think to not recognize that is putting our head in the stand and pretending like everything is wonderful and beautiful.
• 18:53
  Janelle Basham: And the reality is there's some really nasty things that are going on in the adoption world.
• 18:58
  Janelle Basham: Uh, and I love it.
• 18:59
  Janelle Basham: There are two birth moms that are out there that are just paving the way for making sure the ethical adoptions are being honored and being recognized, and they're working very hard to shut down the icky parts about adoption.
• 19:10
  Janelle Basham: I see value in listening to the birth parents who are saying, I was hurt really bad by my adoption.
• 19:18
  Janelle Basham: And I think that pushes us to make adoptions more ethical, to realize that everybody's story has value.
• 19:25
  Janelle Basham: I also know that I have a target on my back.
• 19:28
  Janelle Basham: Anytime I share, people will make comments about, like, oh, you say the adoption is beautiful and you want every woman to make an adoption plan.
• 19:36
  Janelle Basham: And the reality is that's not true.
• 19:38
  Janelle Basham: So just like I want to listen to them and hear their story, I hope the same is true about they would want to listen to my story as well.
• 19:44
  Janelle Basham: Cause I think everybody has a story that has value and needs to be heard.
• 19:48
  Janelle Basham: I had one woman once at a conference come up to me and say, Oh, you know, I you want everyone to make an adoption plan.
• 19:53
  Janelle Basham: I was like, actually, I don't.
• 19:55
  Janelle Basham: I don't want that on my shoulders.
• 19:57
  Janelle Basham: And through that conversation, I was able to share that while I went back and I was the executive director for the maternity home that I once lived at, my daughter also went to that maternity home during her own unplanned pregnancy.
• 20:10
  Janelle Basham: And she made a parenting plan.
• 20:12
  Janelle Basham: And no matter what her plan was, I was going to support her either way.
• 20:15
  Janelle Basham: So I think adoption is a topic that some people are uncomfortable with.
• 20:20
  Janelle Basham: There's a lot of hurt with adoption.
• 20:22
  Janelle Basham: And there are some keyboard warriors that love to go after people on social media.
• 20:28
  Janelle Basham: And I just want people to be nice to each other.
• 20:30
  Janelle Basham: Like this isn't, these are kids that we're talking about.
• 20:33
  Janelle Basham: These are people's feelings, people's stories.
• 20:35
  Janelle Basham: So I just wish that people could be kinder and listen, take a few minutes to listen and have grace and understanding.
• 20:41
  Victor Nieves: Well, on that kindness note, I'd like to take the opportunity briefly to do a bully pulpit, the exact opposite.
• 20:46
  Victor Nieves: You mentioned there's some icky parts, and some of these adoption agencies are doing things that they ought not be doing.
• 20:52
  Victor Nieves: I I think it's worth shining some light on that.
• 20:54
  Victor Nieves: What are some of these things even if for no other reason than to help people avoid it, for people to know where the landmines are?
• 21:00
  Victor Nieves: What are these landmines?
• 21:02
  Victor Nieves: To to be able to navigate them?
• 21:03
  Victor Nieves: And then also, frankly, for us to crack down on it.
• 21:05
  Victor Nieves: Because you know, if there are things that are that are happening that are wrong that are bad, especially you you mentioned it, the stakes are high.
• 21:11
  Victor Nieves: These are children and these are the lives of all the people involved.
• 21:14
  Victor Nieves: We shouldn't make this a gross process for anybody.
• 21:16
  Victor Nieves: What are some of those things?
• 21:17
  Victor Nieves: And then I guess tacked onto it, another question is like an action item.
• 21:20
  Victor Nieves: What do we do to put an end to any of the shenanigans that might be happening?
• 21:24
  Janelle Basham: Sure.
• 21:24
  Janelle Basham: Oh, shenanigans.
• 21:25
  Janelle Basham: That's a great way to describe it.
• 21:26
  Janelle Basham: I would say everybody needs to look at the Adopt Act and call their elected officials and say, please get behind this.
• 21:34
  Janelle Basham: The Adopt Act is there to set boundaries to ensure that some of these larger agencies aren't advertising in different states where they're not licensed, where expectant parents aren't being taken over state lines and given promises of free housing in exchange for the placement of their child, that adoption fees aren't astronomical.
• 21:56
  Janelle Basham: I think we're protecting hopeful parents from being taken advantage of.
• 22:00
  Janelle Basham: Red flags are going on to Google and seeing agencies that are putting tens of thousands of dollars into Google advertising, trying to get women to come into other states to make an adoption plan.
• 22:15
  Victor Nieves: So why are they why would they do that?
• 22:16
  Victor Nieves: What's the incentive?
• 22:17
  Victor Nieves: Why would you spend all this money?
• 22:18
  Janelle Basham: Sure.
• 22:19
  Janelle Basham: There are some states that they don't have caps or don't have, I can't even think what the word is right now, but oversight to they can charge ridiculous amounts for adoption fees.
• 22:32
  Janelle Basham: So where a local agency might charge $30,000, $40,000, $50,000, there's other ones that are $80,000 plus.
• 22:39
  Victor Nieves: Holy cow.
• 22:39
  Janelle Basham: Yeah.
• 22:40
  Victor Nieves: Okay, so how do they get away with that?
• 22:41
  Victor Nieves: I mean, okay, so the reason I'm I'm I'm getting a little interested in this particular topic is it sounds like we're getting dangerously close, I'll say it the way I see it, to the commodification of children.
• 22:50
  Victor Nieves: Um so when you get into this, it should not be that the whole adoption world, and I understand there's expenses.
• 22:56
  Victor Nieves: Uh like I'm not here to talk bad on capitalism.
• 22:58
  Victor Nieves: I understand people got to pay their bills.
• 22:59
  Victor Nieves: There are expenses, and some of that's coming from government red tape, some of that's coming from, you know, all that stuff.
• 23:05
  Victor Nieves: But why would one company be one agency, you know, they're operating in it anyway.
• 23:10
  Victor Nieves: Why would they be chart double?
• 23:11
  Victor Nieves: I mean, you're talking 50,000 in one place and eighty to a hundred thousand at another place.
• 23:16
  Victor Nieves: Is there a justification for that?
• 23:17
  Victor Nieves: Because at this point it's it's sounding an awful lot like price gouging with children, and that's a very scary thought.
• 23:23
  Janelle Basham: It's very icky.
• 23:24
  Janelle Basham: Yeah.
• 23:24
  Victor Nieves: It's not icky, it's evil.
• 23:26
  Victor Nieves: It's evil.
• 23:27
  Janelle Basham: Yes.
• 23:27
  Janelle Basham: Um, and I think it's really important for hopeful adoptive parents to do their research.
• 23:33
  Janelle Basham: When agencies say, you know, your waiting time with us is three months or what it's like, wait, hold on.
• 23:39
  Janelle Basham: Why?
• 23:39
  Janelle Basham: Why is that?
• 23:40
  Janelle Basham: I always encourage hopeful adoptive parents to look into the agencies and see who is providing post-placement support to these birth parents to say, how are they invested in the birth parents?
• 23:52
  Janelle Basham: Like if they're not invested in the birth parents, then this is a transaction.
• 23:55
  Janelle Basham: And that's a massive red flag.
• 23:57
  Janelle Basham: On our website, bravelove.org, we have a list of our partner agencies that we have vetted.
• 24:03
  Janelle Basham: Are they perfect?
• 24:04
  Janelle Basham: Absolutely not.
• 24:05
  Janelle Basham: But they are so invested in birth parents and post-placement support.
• 24:08
  Janelle Basham: And I think that speaks volumes on their characters.
• 24:11
  Janelle Basham: Yes, there's a lot of agencies out there that are doing questionable things, but there's a lot of agencies that are doing really beautiful things as well.
• 24:19
  Janelle Basham: So I don't want to take away from that at all.
• 24:22
  Victor Nieves: Well, and I want to be careful just on a personal.
• 24:23
  Victor Nieves: I mean, I call it evil if there's if there's actually the commodity, the commodification of children.
• 24:27
  Victor Nieves: If you're trying, I mean, that's a very dangerous game.
• 24:29
  Victor Nieves: I would holy cow.
• 24:30
  Victor Nieves: At the same time, I don't want to throw that around and accidentally paint with a broad brush and end up hitting a bunch of good and decent people that are trying to do good, absolutely beautiful things.
• 24:38
  Victor Nieves: So we have to be careful with exactly where these lines are.
• 24:41
  Victor Nieves: But some of it, I mean, there is a sniff test, I think, that we're all kind of intuitively we sort of have whenever we see this kind of stuff.
• 24:46
  Victor Nieves: Well, Janelle, thank you for joining us today.
• 24:48
  Victor Nieves: I hope that you have great success and many blessings in uh the wonderful, wonderful process uh that you're engaged in.
• 24:53
  Victor Nieves: Thank you.
• 24:54
  Janelle Basham: Thank you so much.