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Breaking Through the Glass Ceiling in Leadership with Priska Burkard · Authentic Living

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Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
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things that really matter in our lives.
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And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
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Hi, everyone.
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It's Sal Roxanne Durgesh.
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Nice to see you again this week.
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Today, I have Prisca Burkhart, and she is in Switzerland.
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And, Prisca and I were introduced by a colleague, from Forbes, and she is in the tech
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industry in Switzerland.
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So I'm just so happy that you can come in today and talk to us a little bit about leadership in
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tech.
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She's one of the cool owners of a company called Techface.
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So, Frisco, thanks for being here with us.
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Thanks a lot for having me today.
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So let's let's jump right into why did you get into tech?
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Like, what what got you into tech?
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Did you go to university and then you kinda say, well, I wanna go into tech, or how did you
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end up in tech?
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Well, actually, it's a kind of a funny story.
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I started actually off as a medical laboratory assist here in Switzerland.
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So I did an apprenticeship, which is quite common here in Switzerland and then worked on
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the job for a while and, then decided to take some time off when traveling, came back to
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Switzerland.
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And after having had the taste of the freedom, I didn't feel comfortable anymore in the
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laboratory because it was everything was, like, by order, you had to do step by step.
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You couldn't change anything, which is necessary this area, but I realized I need a
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bit more freedom being able to, bring in ideas, do things differently.
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So I started to investigate what kind of opportunities out there.
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And lucky me, I had a father who was working in tech, and he gave me some, IT magazines, and I
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was going through these magazines.
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And I saw that some companies here in Switzerland were in dire need of tech people
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and what they offered was kind of a program where you learned, programming first, like
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coding, hard core coding, and then had an internship with the company, with the goal that
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you get employed.
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And I thought sounds interesting.
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I just apply.
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And it's like, one of these things I do, I just do things without thinking.
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And so I applied for this, and they invited me for an interview, and I was just like going
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there and not really thinking what I'm going to do after this.
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So I just applied, and and I went to the interview.
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Everything went really well.
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And they were quite impressed by my CV, by what I have done.
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I had to do a test.
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They thought it was really good.
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And, of course, we already had the issue there that there weren't many women, applying for
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these kind of positions.
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So we ended up being 2 out of 20 of this program.
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But, yeah, so I started the program.
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I honestly, I had quite a lot of fun coding Although, I must say it's 20 years ago, coding
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was a complete different story than compared to today, but I had quite a lot fun.
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I did my internship there.
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And then afterwards, I was even offered also a permanent position with the company.
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So I stayed, but then I also realized to be able to proceed in this occupation or in the
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tech industry.
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I need a bit more than this program.
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And so I Once again, what I did, I reached out to a university.
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I saw they just started a new course for management information system.
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And I had no clue about this, and I was just reaching out to them saying, oh, I'm
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interested.
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What do I need to do to be part of this?
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And the thing was they didn't have enough students for the 1st course, so they offered me
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to, start the course without doing the test to get in to the course.
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So, usually, you need to do, like, a a pre study and the test to get into the course.
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But once more, it was me just picking up the phone and and calling someone and say, hey.
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What what do I need to do?
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And it was, again, pure luck that I was able to, join And so I this was then my first study,
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actually.
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I did my bachelor's degree for, management information system.
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And, yeah, that was for 4 years.
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Last 4 years, I've, finished, and I decided that work abroad.
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And I was working for an international, finance company here in Switzerland, and they had
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offices all over the world.
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And I asked my boss, is there any opportunity for me to go abroad?
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And I ended up in Hong Kong.
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So they helped me together a position in Hong Kong, which was great.
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I've never been before, and I loved it.
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And I state that I was planning to stay for 2 years, and I ended up for 4 and a half years in
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in Hong cope.
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Wow.
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May what an amazing experience.
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So let's talk about, the tech industry.
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And like you said, you were 2 out of 20.
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What is the percentage now of females in tech?
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In Switzerland, we are at 18%.
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But I think Switzerland is still a bit on the lower end compared to other counties but we're
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talking about 2022, maybe 25% in certain countries, but no more than that.
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So still pretty much nailed all the needed kind of environment.
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So let's let's talk a little bit about, you know, leadership in tech.
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So you're, you know, you've been in a female in in in leadership in tech.
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What are some of the concerns that you ran up against as a female leader in tech?
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That inter I'm sure it's shifted, but that you can kind of speak to that what you kind of
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dealt with.
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I don't think it has shifted that much.
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It's, I'm not in the tech industry per se anymore, but of course, I'm I'm still in touch
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with a lot of companies and and people working there.
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I don't think it has shifted that much, but still I think the biggest issue is as a woman,
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if you walk into a room full of men, and you have to present something.
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You have to stand up for a project or anything.
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It's very intimidating and often you're you're looked at as if you're not the right person for
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this position, you're you don't have what it takes to be a leader in the tech industry.
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And one thing I experience a lot is, even today, women are, charged based on their
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performance.
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And men are charged based on their potential.
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So as a woman in specialty leadership position, you always have to prove yourself being worthy
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taking on a leader position.
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While as with men often, you saw that someone was promoted to a lawyer leader, leadership
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position because they said he has great potential to become this leader.
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And that was one of the big issues we are we were, and we are still facing And
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that's a tough place to be because, I mean, so you're saying that's what you've seen or even
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the people that you still not actually being in tech now, but working with a lot of female,
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female leaders in tech.
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So it's almost like you're as good as your last project, and there's a different subset of how
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you're how you're kind of viewed.
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And if of a man maybe hasn't even done, maybe something that recently, they're still looking
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at his potential.
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Exactly.
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Yeah.
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So let's talk about the glass ceiling then.
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So clearly there is a I'm gonna say there's a very, very sturdy glass ceiling in tech.
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Obviously, with a lot of mail, dominated, environments, there is that glass ceiling.
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So what have you seen, when you were there or even with the females that you what what is it
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that females do now that you see to really kind of not see you know, the blockages so that they
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can still proceed because, obviously, I mean, if it's a acumen, it's it's education, it's
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experience, it scales.
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I mean, if you were to do a blind, you know, like Malcolm Gladwell talks about, you know,
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you know, he talked about the white screen when, you know, when they were trying to get,
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people to lead the orchestras for years years years, they were the Maestro's were all male.
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And what they eventually did is, when they they put the white screen up for the Maestro's, and
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then, you know, the audition happened, And what had happened, it was a female that walked off
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from behind the screen, and someone said, I think, I believe, if I remember reading this
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right, where's the Maestro?
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And she was clearly the Maestro, but they were still thinking that was somebody behind her.
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And then that started to shift how the started to do their additions after that, and prior to
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that, there had really not been anybody in that capacity.
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So if you look at that example in tech, one's performance, one's, potential, what kind of
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things have you experienced with females that are in tech that are trying to kind of I'm
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gonna say move up the ranks or or go up in leadership.
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I think what I see a lot, and it's actually the sad part of stories, women become men in this
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position.
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So they start acting like a man, thinking like a man, talking like a man, to really be able to
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get to a leadership position.
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Mhmm.
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And I also seen that women who reached those position in some case is I'm not, putting
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everyone into the same pot, but I experienced myself this as well that when they get to this
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point, they don't think about their fellow female.
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They think about about themselves and say, thinking, like, I've done it myself.
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I needed all my strength to get to this position.
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I'm not gonna help anyone else.
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And this is something I unfortunately see, what's happening most probably will be
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happening right now.
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And I think women who do not do this, who are able to really say, okay.
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We are all in this together.
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We need to support each other.
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We need to push each other.
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They're much more successful in becoming a leader and building up this network that helps
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them to really get the step forward.
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That's what they what they need today and makes them more successful.
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And bringing along the women they had, they have met on their way, recommending other women
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for certain position, or if you see, okay, there is a leadership position coming up that
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you can say, hey.
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I know a woman she would be perfect fit for this position, and she has the right potential
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to do that.
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This is what we need to do to really bring more women into leadership position as well.
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So I think that speaks to whole the whole element of, you know, transactional leadership
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versus transformational leadership, and we know in male dominated environments.
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It's more about the masculine traits about being more dictatorial, more autocratic, you
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know, you know, the bottom line.
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And with women, we bring collaboration.
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You know, we're very, you know, we're into communication.
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We're able, I guess, again, because the way we're wired to be able to be more intuitive as
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leaders and, you know, really bring everybody along But if you're coming against the kind of
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the traditional, system and you're you're and there obviously you have women with equal
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capacity.
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Right?
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Like, I mean, I was reading something today just to highlight.
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I didn't get to read the whole article that here in North America that women are manner
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beating beaten out in university at a high, high levels academically and now men are trying
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to find that grounding again.
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So and we've known this for a long time.
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And so, obviously, women are showing their their ability academically, you know, and
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they're able to you know, create those runs to get up there.
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So educationally, we know that that there's not a need to to prove that anymore.
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But some of these sectors, still kind of the the people that are still running most of these
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tech companies are predominantly male.
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So with some of the tech leaders that you've seen that are female that don't become I'm
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gonna use the word autocratic in their leadership.
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How have you found those women?
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How how did they lead differently?
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That allowed the sponsorship and the aligned ship and stuff like that?
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What kind of things did they do?
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Tough question because there aren't that many I have met in my life.
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And I think what female leads to is exactly what said before, they they support other
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women.
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They emphasize with them.
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They show clearly, hey.
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I've been in the same spot as you are, and this is what I have done, and you can do it as well.
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And there is nothing that should hinder you not pursuing a career or a leadership in the tech
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industry.
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And I think that's what they do.
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They share their story.
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They share their struggle.
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They make everyone aware.
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It of course, it's it's not an easy way to go, but we can all do it.
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And if I can do it, everyone else out there can do it as well.
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And I think this is this is the most important part of being a leader.
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Of course.
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So if you go to So let's say, you know, I often think about you have to find alliances with
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males that, truly recognize that things have to shift.
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So
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instead of going directly against the system that exists, it's about, you know, finding
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those men in those positions that have lives and have maybe, female children, and they want
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they recognize the need, but unfortunately, sometimes you're reverberating against the old
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system.
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And it's and it's an example in another, you know, mailed on the environment, and I'm I'm
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doing a speaking event.
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I was doing interviews and this one particular, leader, female leader in this male dominance
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environment, she said, you know, it's kinda like you have to have alliances like men have
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on golf courses.
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And I said, well, tell me more.
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She said, well, if you think about it, how many deals get done on the golf course, you know,
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and I said, many.
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So she said, it's almost like women, a, you know, something that I I want to throw out here
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for you to think about tech, it's almost like you have to take that concept and have side
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meetings like you kind of would have on the golf course with those, you know, men in power
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that want change so that when you go into the actual from the side meeting into the actual
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meeting, there'd be alliances that would be formed so you can use that leverage to kind of
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create a different decision making.
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And she said, you know, she sees it often done at her industry.
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What do you think about something like that with your industry?
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I I think this decide meetings.
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They're they're very important, and they most probably they need also to stay but what we
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need is is also that women are being part of the side meetings that they're not only male
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meetings, their, like, diverse meetings again.
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And what I heard as well is often those decision or discussion happens on the on the
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toilet.
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And then we have an issue because we can't join.
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The winter.
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No.
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No.
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So at least the golf course is a is a place where we can join as well, but we need to make
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sure that we that we join this this discussion as well.
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And that's they don't happen.
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And I think it's important for for every kind of of relationship you have, that you take
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yourself out of the normal standard meeting, like sitting in an office a in a meeting room
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and discussing, it's it will be very supportive to go somewhere else and discussing a deal or a
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relation relationship with another company, with a client.
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So this needs to state, but what we need to make sure is that everyone is part this
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meeting, everyone is able to go to these, places.
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And I think when we talk about diversity, there's one is the the gender diverse So there
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we have the issue with the toilet.
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But look at the golf part golf club.
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Who is who is a member of a golf club?
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It's always the rich people.
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It's it's rich people's sport.
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So you're gonna neglect a lot of people who are not able to afford, a membership in a gold club
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if you have these meetings there.
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So I think there are
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a lot of things we need to think about, but I'm I believe it's important to have the meeting
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outside of this traditional places to also be able to think out of the Roxanne different
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worlds, how people react in different situation.
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And it helps to get to know each other as well.
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Until we get to the point where there is a little bit, you know, increase in diversity,
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whether it's, you know, in female diversity, you know, ableism, ageism, you know, sexism,
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all those diff or just cultural diversity too.
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Like, I work a lot with BIPOC females that are leaders, And they talk about sometimes the
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cultural traditions say around family.
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So a lot of the this particular coach that works that I know very well, and she works with
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diverse by bulk women, but they are the type that would go home right after.
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They wouldn't go for the drinks or, you know, let's, you know, meet after So because they
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have families and they're kind of extended and traditional, so she she would talk a lot about
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coaching them to say, okay.
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You know, maybe other females might be able to, you know, kind of go and have those situations,
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but how is it that you can try to recognize that there's other ways that people can
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recognize your capacity.
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Right?
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So you're not gonna be able to make the social kind of maybe after, but, being able to
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verbalize that I do, you know, I'd like that opportunity I have done this or whatever.
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It's also people learning to speak up, about ability and, you know, which is something that
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she was saying that that's something that she found that a lot of women of color, would have
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difficulty with.
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Now with with check with women, How are they in speaking up if they were, to deliver a message?
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That's a little bit diametrically opposed to the male model.
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How how is it received?
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Not well.
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Not well.
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Not well.
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It don't speak up.
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It you you've been I mean, I experienced this myself, and you've been seen as very aggressive
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if you speak up as a woman in in the in the tech industry.
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And it's it's really we need to teach everyone in this concept or in this setting about being
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able to speak up, giving the space for everyone to speak up.
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And Sometimes you also need to understand that, and it doesn't matter if it's a man or a woman,
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you might have a different approach speaking up.
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So you might not be the one person who sits in a big meeting with 10, 15 people and voicing
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their opinion because they're very introvert.
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So maybe you're a person who needs time to digest and think about a certain situation or a
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certain proposal before they can speak up.
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But we need to give those people the room and the possibility to speak up.
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And I think this is we we're talking a lot about diversity and a lot of companies are
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saying, hey.
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Yeah.
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We wanna have diversity.
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Let's let's have, 25% women in the tech industry.
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Let's do 50, 50% leadership.
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It's nice, but only doing this doesn't bring us anywhere because the next step is then being
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able to include people as well.
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And as you just mentioned, if you have if you say, okay, we hire now more, women who are
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mothers.
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Yeah.
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It's great, but you need to include them.
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So you can't go for drinks off the work anymore and discuss important business issue because
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those mothers won't be able to join you because they have other obligations.
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And this is the step that needs to happen right now that the, okay, we realized we need to
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diverse We we we know how we can maybe reach this diversity, but how can we keep the
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diversity by building up an inclusive workspace where everybody has the opportunities to speak
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up, to be themselves, give them the space to maybe just speak up after meeting for example
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or, discuss certain topic at certain times where the when they are available and not just
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when it was used to be after AIDS during the the drink in a bar.
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Right.
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Because, like, I mean, diversity of thought makes creativity.
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And, of course, in in your industry, guess what?
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That's the elixir.
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Right?
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You want that optimal, like, is to your set, to your point.
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And, I mean, obviously, I would assume that a lot of people in tech, they're very you know,
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stem, the the stem, you know, left brain, but again, you know, maybe more introverted, more
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analytical, you know, they'd have different personalities.
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We'd be thinking through things differently.
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But if you, you know, if you're having, younger women, different cultures, different ages.
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Like, the, like, you put that, you know, to a blender, and you're gonna get a pretty
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interesting mix.
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But again, you know, it's about systems recognizing, you know, the affinity to we all
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wanna feel comfortable.
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That's a human trait, but in that homogene homogeneity, you're you're you're keeping away
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yourself from creativity, you know, a different perspective, not thinking something through,
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And we know that a lot more companies are realizing that today more than ever because, of
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course, especially with competitive environments like, tech, Right?
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You know, things are moving so quickly that you need those people that are, you know, thinking
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in different ways or putting something together that you would never think would go together.
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So definitely, I think it's it's something out there.
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So, for women with tech, and let's say a one young woman's listening and they're like, okay,
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Prisca, what are you telling me?
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I wanna get into tech.
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I love it.
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I and I'm a red brain.
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So I'm like, I I'm empowered by people like you that can code and and and, you know, the the
22:53
process people because that's my that that's my lowest, quality for but but clearly for women
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that are looking to get into tech, what kind of guidance would you give them about getting into
23:05
the tech world?
23:05
Because they love it.
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It may be still where it is, but they love it.
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What kind of guidance would you give them?
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I think
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it's it's quite important to find your tribe.
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So if you wanna get into tech, find a group of women could be also men that can support you in
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your way to tech so that they give you the the that keep your back that when you doubt
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yourself, your abilities, that they can tell you, no.
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No.
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No.
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You're good.
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What you do is okay, don't get intimidated by someone who tells you otherwise or someone they
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don't even verbally tell you.
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They might even tell you with their body language.
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And it's just I think it's quite important to have your tribe where you can exchange your
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thoughts where you can exchange experience as well and make sure that they support you
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through your career and your way.
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And connect with women within the same industry within your company as well.
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And another point is also that I strongly believe in a lot of cases, and I even called
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myself doing this.
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We have those unconscious bias, and we use them and unless somebody tells us what you just said
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or what you just did was your unconscious bias, we're not gonna recognize them.
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And I feel it's it's perfectly okay if you, for example, if someone in a meeting tells you Oh,
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well, you might not be able to do this that you can clearly say, well, why would you say
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something like this?
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That you understand where is the this person coming from?
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Is it their unconscious bias?
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Is it maybe that you haven't spoken up that you want to do something or that you or able
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capable of doing something just to find out where where is it that this doesn't happen.
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And I think it's okay to ask the question of course, in a in a very open friendly manner,
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not attacking.
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No.
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No.
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Don't don't don't don't, come back from the old brain where you're reacting, but you might be
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thinking it, but is it, do you get the skills to say, well, help me understand what have I
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demonstrated that makes you believe that I don't have capacity versus being reactive to
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your point because if you're feeling kind of judged all the time as human beings, what are
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we gonna do?
25:21
We're gonna protect.
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We're gonna want to, you know, and sometimes, yes, we're we're human beings at the end of the
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day.
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We're gonna want to to, you know, stand up for ourselves, but again, it's learning the
25:32
professional decorum to be able to answer and and recognize.
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And then if you don't overreact, be able to go to that mentor or that ally to help you along
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the way to say, when I was in this position, this is what helped me and maybe you need to
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think about this or and, you know, those men mentor mentee relationships are so, so
25:51
significant you know, in lots of I remember when I was in corporate, again, even though in
25:57
health and wellness industry, I was quite young.
25:59
I was in my twenties, And sometimes female executives were the most difficult to deal
26:05
with.
26:05
Right?
26:06
And I'd be like, did I What did I do?
26:08
Like, there's no but I think to your point, they had been through a tough time all the way
26:13
up, right, and which was had nothing to do with my tenure, but they were like, had to do it.
26:18
So therefore, you have to do it versus saying, I had to do it.
26:21
How can I help you?
26:22
Because I know it's a different time.
26:23
So I think that whole collaborativeness as females, I think we have to keep.
26:28
We have to think, you know, if I'm mid I'm mid career now and there's another executive coming
26:33
up, you know, that person has, I can see their struggles.
26:37
In a different stage, even to have a conversation with that person, just tell them,
26:42
you know, you're doing okay.
26:43
It's just a tough stage.
26:45
I think those those are steps that we all can take as as, females along the way because we've
26:50
all kind of been there, and and done that in a way.
26:54
So for the leaders listening that want your females to stay and you want your diverse,
27:02
environments What kind of things would you suggest that leadership at least potentially
27:08
think about or maybe things that they need to really start to implement so that they can,
27:13
attract and retain, top talent.
27:18
Mhmm.
27:18
There is a saying that you need to invite those to your table, to the to the decision table as
27:25
well.
27:25
But that's just the first step.
27:27
The second step is to listen to the different talents on the table, the decision table as
27:33
well.
27:33
And I think this is what needs to to happen right now.
27:36
And for leaders who want to keep their female tech talents.
27:40
It's it's really just ask them what is it that you need to be able to do the job of a leader
27:50
or this this leadership job.
27:51
And just to maybe it's something very, very simple that they say, hey.
27:56
Look.
27:56
I have for example, Monday night is my night with the kids.
28:00
I this is I want to be able to leave at 5 PM on on the Mondays.
28:06
And please stop doing the team meeting at 4:30 or Mondays because we overrun all the time, and
28:11
I can't leave.
28:12
So it's it's very simple, small things, but I think it's very important to to really talk to
28:18
them and say, what do you need right now to be able to to thrive in your position.
28:25
Because we've seen through the pandemic, we can adjust to new situation And we're all able to
28:31
adjust.
28:32
It's just sometimes we are standing in our own ways and being able to understand what do
28:37
people need, and how can we adjust everyone in a team, for example, that everyone gets what
28:44
they need to be at their best would be would be for sure the first step.
28:49
And the second part is to make assumptions.
28:53
Never ever make assumptions.
28:54
It's it's the thing.
28:55
Like, I'm I I'm not a mother, but I'm assumed that I will have kids one day when I was
29:03
younger.
29:03
It's just like, yeah, you're you're a woman.
29:05
You're gonna have kids.
29:06
So, we are prepared that you leave the company for a certain amount of time because you take
29:10
care of kids.
29:11
And they never I mean, it's it's this assumption.
29:14
And even if it would be the case, why does it interfere with my career?
29:19
It doesn't at all, but there could be other situations that we just feel like Oh, no.
29:24
She never wants to do this anyway.
29:27
But did you ask this person if she really doesn't want to do this or not?
29:31
And I think We have this this assumptions brought to us, so we're aware our lifetime.
29:38
And the best way to avoid them is just ask the question.
29:41
What do you want?
29:42
What do you need to be your best?
29:45
Right.
29:46
And you know what?
29:46
One thing that I can think about when I was in corporate, I was a young mom.
29:50
And sometimes certain things would be on a team would be given to people that didn't have
29:56
children.
29:57
And I was like, that's not fair.
30:00
Okay.
30:00
I I I also have a family.
30:02
I get that, but those other people that didn't have families that they also have a life.
30:07
And I could see it from the other side of it because, you know, if I'm a if you're
30:12
accommodating for me, because I'm a young mom, why is it that that person that doesn't have a
30:16
fee family, does it mean that they need to shoulder more of the responsibility on the
30:20
counter side of it?
30:21
I could see it.
30:22
So I think you're right.
30:23
It's kinda like, you know, you may be leaning on people that are quite capable.
30:27
And then if they don't speak up, they they you're gonna burn them out too, and they're
30:31
gonna they're gonna use their feet and go to someone that's gonna respect their value too.
30:35
So it's I think it's your point is opening up the communication and understanding needs
30:40
because every person, you know, the assumption could be, you know, because say I'm Brown that
30:47
there's certain things about me that you don't know.
30:49
You don't know about culture.
30:50
You don't know about my family.
30:52
You don't know about where I grew up and what my values and beliefs are to really kinda get
30:57
to know people at some level so that you can make the best decisions, because if we all feel
31:03
like we're worthy and valuable to that point that I was talking about, earlier, then we're
31:07
we're all gonna we're gonna bring our best, foot forward.
31:11
Right?
31:12
We're absolutely gonna do that.
31:14
Prisco, this has been an amazing conversation.
31:17
And I I hope that, you know, the leaders listening really kind of think about it and
31:21
think as we're talking about, and a lot more women getting into into stem.
31:27
That's the thing.
31:28
My brain's not wired like that, so I get don't get it.
31:31
And I've heard coating, I'm like, oh, but a lot more women are getting into these fields.
31:35
So we have to accept that that's gonna be reality.
31:38
We're gonna have to may be uncomfortable as these changes come about, but really it's in
31:42
the best interest of what we know is happening out there, in the mostly predominantly, male,
31:49
dominated in environments.
31:51
So, Perisca, if, people are wanting to have a conversation or they wanted to consult.
31:58
She's in Switzerland.
31:59
I would love to, you know, get over there at some point and visit with her if people are
32:04
wanting to reach out or or connect with you at Tech Face, what, where do they reach you?
32:09
You can reach me.
32:12
And then you can also sign up for the newsletter on our website, tech face.
32:16
And, if you do so, we usually send out an automatic email where you can book a time slot,
32:21
which me so we can further chat about struggles someone has or if they need advice or just
32:27
wanna give some feedback, some inputs.
32:28
I'm more than happy to exchange as well on a personal level.
32:33
Awesome.
32:33
Well, again, again, thanks for your time.
32:35
So what am I walking away with?
32:38
With diversity, you know, it's the possibility of collapsing those silos that exist do not
32:46
assume that you know, what is going on for someone, and the more you're able to have those
32:51
conversations the answers are right in front of you.
32:54
It may be different.
32:56
What you're hearing, but ultimately, you can really listen and adapt to make changes for the
33:02
people that you work with.
33:03
And ultimately, you're gonna gain, individually and collectively as a company.
33:08
So again, if you're needing any, support around authentic leadership with yourself as a leader
33:14
or your teams, just reach out to me.
33:17
I've chat with Roxanne, and we can jump on a call, and go from there.
33:21
Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne, creating a space for positive, healthy
33:27
change.
33:28
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne, visit roxanne
33:35
Durhaj.com/blueprint.
33:39
We'll see you next time on authentic living with Roxanne.