Latest / Ridiculous History / CLASSIC: Creature Feature: The Dark Tetrad

Transcript

CLASSIC: Creature Feature: The Dark Tetrad · Ridiculous History

0:00
Speaker 1: Fellow Ridiculous Historians, not too too long ago or I
0:05
Speaker 1: don't know, it's twenty eighteen, so lo these many years ago?
0:08
Speaker 2: Uh?
0:09
Speaker 1: Noel, You and I asked our pal Katie Golden to
0:14
Speaker 1: tell us about something called the Dark Tetrad in the
0:18
Speaker 1: animal world. Do you remember this one?
0:21
Speaker 3: I do?
0:22
Speaker 2: And if I'm not mistaken, this is an episode of
0:25
Speaker 2: that podcast where we were a guest that we also
0:29
Speaker 2: posted in our feed. So something a little different for
0:32
Speaker 2: you today.
0:33
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, we asked our We asked our good friend Katie,
0:37
Speaker 1: who's the most prolific serial meowderer Max. I don't know
0:43
Speaker 1: if you want to put a rim shot on that one,
0:48
Speaker 1: but I thought it was good.
0:50
Speaker 2: Ma'am was jump right in.
0:55
Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome to a
1:00
Speaker 1: Ridiculous Historians.
1:01
Speaker 2: See what you did? Yeah, this is what they call
1:04
Speaker 2: the old Ridiculous History bait and switch.
1:06
Speaker 1: It's true, yes, and your no always man. We've got
1:10
Speaker 1: our super producer, Casey Pegro, and we want to introduce
1:16
Speaker 1: you to a show that we did that we had
1:19
Speaker 1: so much fun doing.
1:20
Speaker 2: It was a lot of fun.
1:21
Speaker 1: It's also not our show.
1:22
Speaker 2: It's not our show, but here's the thing, folks. It's
1:25
Speaker 2: a little thing called the holiday season, and we really
1:29
Speaker 2: needed a little something to pat out our feed to
1:31
Speaker 2: give you guys something juicy to listen to over the holidays.
1:34
Speaker 2: But make it we didn't have to actually record a
1:36
Speaker 2: whole episode of our show, Ridiculous History. So we were
1:40
Speaker 2: asked to be guests on an episode of a wonderful
1:43
Speaker 2: show called Creature Feature, which is hosted by the wonderfully
1:49
Speaker 2: smart and funny Katie Golden.
1:51
Speaker 1: Yes, and we had such a great time on this show.
1:57
Speaker 1: We don't want to spoil too much of it for you,
1:59
Speaker 1: but we had such a great I'm on this show
2:01
Speaker 1: that at the end of it, we harascible scoundrels that
2:05
Speaker 1: we are, said, hey, Katie is equal if we publish
2:09
Speaker 1: this episode on our feed as well, so that more
2:12
Speaker 1: of our listeners can find out about Creature Feature and
2:16
Speaker 1: all the neat, strange stuff you dive into. So what
2:19
Speaker 1: is Creature Feature? Well, it's this. It's this brand new
2:23
Speaker 1: podcast from How Stuff Works that takes a quote critters
2:26
Speaker 1: I view to explore how animal behavior parallels human behavior.
2:31
Speaker 1: And we entered into a dark, yet paradoxically illuminating exploration
2:37
Speaker 1: of something called the Dark tetrad.
2:39
Speaker 2: That's right, Ben, which includes psychopathy, narcissistic personality, macha.
2:46
Speaker 1: That's the original dark triad, but there's a fourth that
2:48
Speaker 1: is added occasionally, which is good old everyday sadism.
2:54
Speaker 2: That's right, And that was actually my favorite entry in
2:56
Speaker 2: the episode where we talk about a particularly nasty pair
2:59
Speaker 2: of cidic wasp that does horrible, horrible things to tarantulus.
3:04
Speaker 1: So check out our appearance on Creature Feature. Thanks again,
3:08
Speaker 1: Katie if you're hearing this for having us over on
3:11
Speaker 1: your show, and if you enjoy this exploration of human behavior,
3:17
Speaker 1: please check out the rest of the fine episodes of
3:20
Speaker 1: Creature Feature that are available today wherever you find your
3:23
Speaker 1: favorite shows.
3:24
Speaker 2: Listen up for a guest spot from Katie herself on
3:26
Speaker 2: this show.
3:27
Speaker 1: Yes, that's true.
3:28
Speaker 2: Can we roll the tape without further ado?
3:38
Speaker 3: Hey, everybody, welcome to Creature Feature, the show where we
3:41
Speaker 3: explore the brains of animals and people. I I got
3:45
Speaker 3: brains on my shirt. Today we'll be talking about evil killers, kidnappers, murderers,
3:51
Speaker 3: and hidden lurkers walking or crawling amongst us. Then we'll
3:56
Speaker 3: answer the age old question, who's the most prolific serial meter,
4:01
Speaker 3: does evil exist? There's not really an entry for evil
4:05
Speaker 3: in the DSM, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual used by psychologists.
4:11
Speaker 3: General attempts to categorize evil has resulted in the creation
4:14
Speaker 3: of the dark tetrad, a term used for four personality
4:18
Speaker 3: traits associated with bad behavior. Narcissism, sadism, psychopathy, and machiavelianism.
4:25
Speaker 4: These are traits that.
4:26
Speaker 3: Are often attributes of people with maladaptive, dangerous personalities. So
4:34
Speaker 3: what does it mean to be in the dark tetrad?
4:37
Speaker 3: We all know generally the concept of narcissism, sadism, psychopathy,
4:41
Speaker 3: and machiavilianism, but what does that actually look like in
4:44
Speaker 3: humans and even animals. Let's take a look at narcissism.
4:48
Speaker 3: For example, the DSM's definition for clinical levels of narcissism
4:52
Speaker 3: is someone who has quote a grandiose sense of self
4:56
Speaker 3: importance and shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes. I mean,
5:00
Speaker 3: you've almost certainly encountered at least a subclinical narcissist, and
5:05
Speaker 3: no doubt you could name a few celebrities and politicians
5:08
Speaker 3: who fit the bill. But could you find narcissism and animals?
5:12
Speaker 3: Many animals seem like narcissists. But even if you point
5:15
Speaker 3: the finger at a totally self obsessed animal, say a housecat,
5:19
Speaker 3: you could also argue they lack the sense of self
5:21
Speaker 3: to be narcissists. Certainly, all Mittens seems to care about
5:25
Speaker 3: is herself, but she may not fully comprehend that she
5:29
Speaker 3: is a herself, So can she really be a narcissist?
5:33
Speaker 3: This is the problem with trying to assign human traits
5:36
Speaker 3: to animals. We can't get inside the animal's head and
5:39
Speaker 3: know what it's thinking. An act that seems sadistic or
5:43
Speaker 3: manipulative may be simply an instinct that allows the animal
5:46
Speaker 3: to pass on its genes. It's impossible to know what
5:50
Speaker 3: they're really feeling. But hey, this podcast is all about
5:53
Speaker 3: the impossible. So we're gonna look at the animals that
5:56
Speaker 3: best symbolize each of the remaining.
5:58
Speaker 4: Characteristics of the Dark tetras.
6:00
Speaker 3: Sadism, psychopathy, and machiavellianism. We'll compare these masters of evil
6:06
Speaker 3: with their human counterparts, exploring what it means to be
6:09
Speaker 3: a member of the Dark tetrad and whether we can
6:12
Speaker 3: use modern scientific imaging to actually quantify.
6:15
Speaker 4: What it means to be a psychopath.
6:18
Speaker 3: Joining me today on our journey into the Dark is
6:20
Speaker 3: Ben Bollen and Noel Brown, hosts of the podcast Ridiculous History.
6:25
Speaker 4: Welcome you guys.
6:26
Speaker 1: Thanks for having us. Katie, Yeah, for sure.
6:29
Speaker 2: Thanks so much. I'm already kind of terrified, but I'm excited.
6:34
Speaker 1: It's a weird feeling. I, for one, am and thrilled,
6:36
Speaker 1: darkly thrilled.
6:39
Speaker 3: One of you. You were mentioning you have a cat.
6:42
Speaker 3: Would you describe your cat as a narcissist?
6:44
Speaker 2: Oh? Sure, I mean he I don't know, it's weird.
6:47
Speaker 2: He sort of like flits between narcissism and outright psychopathy.
6:51
Speaker 2: Like I was saying, he kind of leaves me little
6:54
Speaker 2: treats on the front porch where it'll be like almost
6:57
Speaker 2: like splayed out like some kind of satanic rich what
7:00
Speaker 2: it'll be like the head of a squirrel and the
7:01
Speaker 2: body of a rat, and then you know, kind of
7:03
Speaker 2: surrounded by like viscera and like the shape of pentagram.
7:06
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's really pretty scary. But then he snuggles up,
7:09
Speaker 2: you know, like a good little guy. So I don't
7:12
Speaker 2: know what to make of him. I do not know
7:13
Speaker 2: what to make of him. I'm hoping I can learn
7:15
Speaker 2: from this podcast today and kind of get inside his
7:18
Speaker 2: head a little bit more and understand what makes him tick.
7:20
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean even dogs, to me are pretty
7:22
Speaker 3: narcissistic because they, like my own dog, you associate them
7:27
Speaker 3: with being selfless and loving towards humans. But she's a
7:30
Speaker 3: black hole of neediness and desiring affection. So no matter
7:36
Speaker 3: how much I pet her, like I feel like if
7:38
Speaker 3: I was dying on the floor, her number one priority
7:42
Speaker 3: would be to get another belly rub before I pass out.
7:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then, as we all know too, if we
7:49
Speaker 2: died alone in our apartments with just our cats or
7:51
Speaker 2: our dogs, they would probably instantly start eating us.
7:54
Speaker 1: But that's any animal would eventually begin eating you if
7:57
Speaker 1: it were I know.
7:58
Speaker 2: So is the love real, Ben, that's my question of
8:00
Speaker 2: love is real?
8:01
Speaker 1: But now we're talking about the nature of the body
8:04
Speaker 1: versus the mind or the soul, which I don't think
8:06
Speaker 1: is quite where we're going with.
8:07
Speaker 2: Today's Well you did say what is evil? Is evil real?
8:10
Speaker 2: So I'm intrigued. Please, let's let's dive right in.
8:14
Speaker 3: There's a lot of curiosity around whether animals can be sadistic.
8:18
Speaker 3: A catter or a dolphin who plays with their half
8:20
Speaker 3: dead praise seems sadistic, but there's actually practicality behind their cruelty.
8:26
Speaker 3: So take this example, Dolphins beat up octopi before eating them,
8:30
Speaker 3: even after they're dead. This may seem overkill, as if
8:34
Speaker 3: the dolphins simply can't stop their murderous frenzy because they're
8:38
Speaker 3: having too much fun, but there's actually a really good
8:41
Speaker 3: reason to.
8:42
Speaker 4: Play rugby with a dead octopus.
8:44
Speaker 3: Octopi don't have centralized nervous systems, so after they're dead,
8:48
Speaker 3: their tentacles can still move around. If an overeager dolphin
8:52
Speaker 3: gobbles up an octopus who's dead but still wriggling, those
8:56
Speaker 3: tentacles can crawl up its esophagus and choke the dolphin.
8:59
Speaker 4: Today.
9:00
Speaker 3: Yes, this is something that's actually been documented before. So
9:04
Speaker 3: the dolphins beat the octopi to a pult before chowing down,
9:07
Speaker 3: preventing the octopi from getting its surfinge from beyond its
9:11
Speaker 3: watery grave. So asking whether animals are sadistic is a
9:15
Speaker 3: tricky question. I'd wager I guess that yes, more intelligent
9:19
Speaker 3: animals like dolphins or primates may have fun wreaking doom
9:22
Speaker 3: and destruction, even if there's a good evolutionary reason for it,
9:26
Speaker 3: but instead I want to look at how evolution itself
9:29
Speaker 3: can create a sadistic monster, void of any emotion at all.
9:33
Speaker 4: To do that, we'll have to take a look.
9:35
Speaker 3: At tarantulas, And in this case, the tarantulas are the
9:39
Speaker 3: innocent victims of a much more terrifying creature. So you, guys,
9:45
Speaker 3: imagine being captured by a criminal sadist, being paralyzed by him,
9:51
Speaker 3: stuck inside like a kill shed, totally at his mercy,
9:55
Speaker 3: completely paralyzed.
9:57
Speaker 1: Katie, I think about that all the time.
10:00
Speaker 3: It's like, you know those bad dreams where you're like
10:04
Speaker 3: trying to run away from a bad guy and you
10:08
Speaker 3: can't move your stupid body.
10:10
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, for sure.
10:12
Speaker 3: It's like this really common recurring dream for me. I'm
10:15
Speaker 3: like trying to run but it just feels like you're
10:17
Speaker 3: stuck in mud, and then you can't move at all
10:19
Speaker 3: and you try to scream but you can't scream.
10:22
Speaker 2: Well, it's like that part of Nightmare on Elm Street
10:24
Speaker 2: where the where she's running up the stairs and she
10:26
Speaker 2: starts sinking the stairs, turning into marshmallows and she just
10:28
Speaker 2: like sinks into.
10:28
Speaker 3: The Oh I hate that, or like or like the
10:32
Speaker 3: bed sinks under you.
10:35
Speaker 1: The fear of moving slowly in dreams, of trying to
10:38
Speaker 1: run but being unable to is I think slightly more
10:43
Speaker 1: common than the other spooky one, which is the fear
10:46
Speaker 1: of your teeth falling out in your dreams.
10:48
Speaker 3: Mm hmm, yeah, yeah, that's a common one to the
10:52
Speaker 3: body horror, either teeth, skin, or hair just falling out.
10:56
Speaker 3: I get those ones too. I hate it, like big
10:58
Speaker 3: chunks of skin falling off. It's the worst.
11:01
Speaker 1: I have one question when we talk about this, this
11:05
Speaker 1: attack of paralysis, right, do the animal victims of this
11:12
Speaker 1: sort of attack do they experience fear as we would
11:14
Speaker 1: understand it?
11:15
Speaker 3: You know, I'm not sure. I mean, so we're talking
11:18
Speaker 3: about tarantula's being the victims. So they're terrorized by this
11:24
Speaker 3: thing called tarantula hawk. It's a sort of wasp, and
11:28
Speaker 3: I imagine if the tarantula is capable of feeling anything
11:33
Speaker 3: at all, this is going to be the scariest thing
11:36
Speaker 3: that ever happens to it. I feel like tarantulas are
11:40
Speaker 3: probably just a little more advanced than like a rumba
11:43
Speaker 3: in terms of their ability to like sense things. But
11:48
Speaker 3: I feel like there's got to be some kind of
11:51
Speaker 3: very primitive wiring that is able to at least, you know,
11:56
Speaker 3: gets like some dim awareness of being afraid of something
12:01
Speaker 3: so that they can survive. Probably no other real cognition
12:06
Speaker 3: beyond that, but other than like uh oh uh oh.
12:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, probably just like an impending death kind of moment,
12:13
Speaker 2: you know, where it's like ah, fuck, it's over.
12:15
Speaker 4: Like oh oh no oh no.
12:17
Speaker 1: But the tarantula hawk is it Is it actually a hawk?
12:21
Speaker 3: No, no, it's a it's a type of wasp. And
12:24
Speaker 3: if you look into evolutionary biology, you'll find that ninety
12:28
Speaker 3: nine percent of asshole behavior is by wasps. Uh. So,
12:36
Speaker 3: what these tarantula hawks do is they wait outside of
12:39
Speaker 3: tarantula's burrow and they pluck at the tarantula's webbing to
12:44
Speaker 3: lure the spider out, because the transulas create this this
12:49
Speaker 3: little sort of dormat of webbing so that when an
12:52
Speaker 3: insect crawls across it, they know to pop out and
12:55
Speaker 3: capture the prey. But instead of a juicy little worm,
12:59
Speaker 3: it's the transola hawk waiting for them, and it stings
13:03
Speaker 3: the tarantula with a paralyzing venom, and so the transula
13:08
Speaker 3: is frozen but still completely alive, and the wasp drags
13:14
Speaker 3: the transula back to its burrow, where it places the
13:18
Speaker 3: transola snugly inside and then lays a single egg on
13:22
Speaker 3: top of it. And I feel like, if you're the tarantula,
13:27
Speaker 3: with whatever tarantula consciousness that you have, if you can't
13:31
Speaker 3: move and you see someone lay an egg on top
13:34
Speaker 3: of you, this is the point where you're going like, well,
13:37
Speaker 3: this is not.
13:37
Speaker 4: Going to be cool.
13:38
Speaker 3: Wow, indeed, it's not cool for the transula. So the
13:43
Speaker 3: hawk the wasp buries the transula alive and tamps down
13:48
Speaker 3: the earth. So it's stuck in there, still alive, buried alive,
13:52
Speaker 3: with this little baby hatching on top of it. So
13:58
Speaker 3: the wasp larva will feed on the live flesh of
14:02
Speaker 3: the tarantula for up to a month.
14:06
Speaker 2: That's like the buffalo bill of the animal kingdom right there.
14:09
Speaker 2: And this is this is terrifying. Why is it? Why
14:12
Speaker 2: is this so adapted to do this bizarre thing like that?
14:15
Speaker 2: It seems like such a stretch, Like I mean, how
14:18
Speaker 2: did this creature come up with this idea? I mean
14:21
Speaker 2: that's a silly way of asking it.
14:23
Speaker 3: Well, think about it this way, like when you you
14:26
Speaker 3: know animals, especially like wasps, they don't have refrigerators, so
14:30
Speaker 3: they can't keep food fresh for their young as it
14:34
Speaker 3: hatches and develops. So by burying their larva, they're keeping
14:39
Speaker 3: it safe from predators. But you know, if you bury
14:42
Speaker 3: it with some dead prey, it can feed off of
14:44
Speaker 3: it for a while, but eventually that's gonna go bad
14:48
Speaker 3: and it can't eat it anymore. But by feeding on
14:51
Speaker 3: something that's alive, it will stay fresh. So actually, some
14:56
Speaker 3: species of the tarantula hawks will feed on non vital
15:01
Speaker 3: organs first, so that the transula remains alive longer and
15:06
Speaker 3: that gives it more opportunities to feed.
15:09
Speaker 1: Makes sense, makes it? I have a quick question here, Katie.
15:13
Speaker 1: So you know how serial killers are often known for
15:17
Speaker 1: their specific mo o, either in the way that they
15:21
Speaker 1: commit murder or in the types of victims they choose.
15:24
Speaker 1: Are different species of tarantula hawk do they operate in
15:29
Speaker 1: a similar way? Do they only prey on specific types
15:32
Speaker 1: of tarantulas or is it any hairy or achnet out
15:35
Speaker 1: there as fair game?
15:37
Speaker 3: Yeah? No, they are often very specific in terms of
15:41
Speaker 3: the way that they kill and which species of tarantula
15:45
Speaker 3: that they go after, because it's such a specified strategy.
15:50
Speaker 3: Because you need a tarantula that is a burrowing type
15:53
Speaker 3: of tarantula, and so that's not going to be every spider.
15:59
Speaker 3: It's there very specific strategy isn't going to work. So
16:02
Speaker 3: it's picked these cute little I mean to me, they're cute,
16:07
Speaker 3: the translas that like hide in their little holes and
16:09
Speaker 3: then as soon as a little prey comes by, they're like, ooh, gotcha.
16:13
Speaker 3: But this time they're the ones who are got so. Also,
16:17
Speaker 3: it actually gets more specific because female tarantulas are the
16:22
Speaker 3: ones that are the killers. Males just hang around flowers
16:26
Speaker 3: and try to get laid. So the mother actually will
16:30
Speaker 3: select the gender of the larva based on how big
16:33
Speaker 3: their victim is. If they have a big tarantula that
16:37
Speaker 3: they've buried alive, then the mother will fertilize the egg,
16:41
Speaker 3: which creates a female, because the females are the big,
16:44
Speaker 3: tough serial killers and the males are these little, smaller
16:48
Speaker 3: flower drinking dudes. And so if the transula is small,
16:54
Speaker 3: you know, it's like the male doesn't require as much
16:57
Speaker 3: nutrition to develop, so the wasp believe the a unfertilized
17:01
Speaker 3: and then that creates a male baby. And adults are
17:05
Speaker 3: actually non carnivorous, so it's just the babies that eat
17:09
Speaker 3: the meat. The adults just like to drink flower.
17:11
Speaker 1: Nectar and then abduct and murdered tarantulism.
17:14
Speaker 4: Well yeah, that too.
17:17
Speaker 3: It's sort of like have you guys seen Oh, what
17:19
Speaker 3: is it?
17:21
Speaker 4: What's that movie? It's not called is it Split? The
17:23
Speaker 4: one with James McAvoy.
17:26
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, he has multiple personalities.
17:28
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, and the one like he has like the
17:31
Speaker 3: mother personality where he's like, I've made you a sandwich
17:35
Speaker 3: and like he's stroking her hair and stuff. It makes
17:39
Speaker 3: me think of that, these like wasp that like, oh
17:41
Speaker 3: I like to drink flower nectar anyways, enjoy being paralyzed
17:45
Speaker 3: while my baby eats you.
17:48
Speaker 2: Yikes? So how long does it take to kill the tarantula?
17:51
Speaker 2: Like how long does this this horrible torture porn go on?
17:55
Speaker 3: It can be up to a month, which is crazy
17:58
Speaker 3: to me because like that's such a long time to
18:00
Speaker 3: be slowly eaten. It's like being in a sarlac pit.
18:04
Speaker 2: It's just do they even do them the kindness of
18:08
Speaker 2: reinjecting them with the paralyzing venom or does that eventually
18:11
Speaker 2: just wear off once they're buried and they don't even
18:13
Speaker 2: care anymore we're dismembered.
18:14
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it'll eventually wear off, but I think
18:17
Speaker 3: they'll most likely die before it does. And also the
18:20
Speaker 3: they're packed in so tight inside the dirt they can't
18:24
Speaker 3: move anyways. It's every nightmare combined into one, like being paralyzed,
18:29
Speaker 3: being eaten alive, being buried alive.
18:32
Speaker 2: And having a baby eating you. Yeah, maybe part is
18:35
Speaker 2: extra creepy. That's to me, that's the kicker. I don't
18:37
Speaker 2: know why. Something about the baby eating you from the
18:40
Speaker 2: top down is just really really awful.
18:42
Speaker 1: Because even human murderers don't do that. That's one of
18:45
Speaker 1: the big difference.
18:46
Speaker 2: That's a very special kind of evil who.
18:49
Speaker 3: There aren't typically baby murderers, although there are children who
18:54
Speaker 3: can be murderers, but I don't think infants have yet
18:58
Speaker 3: done a murder.
19:00
Speaker 1: It's a different show.
19:02
Speaker 3: So good news you guys. Tarantula hawks are found all
19:06
Speaker 3: over the world, including Australia, which duh, because Australia is
19:11
Speaker 3: just home to every monster. They're also in Africa, Southeast Asia, India,
19:17
Speaker 3: and also America. They're even in San Diego, California, which
19:22
Speaker 3: is my hometown.
19:23
Speaker 1: So yay, that's astonishing.
19:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, will you be able to find any video of
19:28
Speaker 2: this process going down. I would love slash.
19:31
Speaker 3: Yeah, I could totally send you guys something like that.
19:35
Speaker 3: It's I have seen it. It's pretty gnarmally because you
19:39
Speaker 3: see this wasp attach itself to the tarantula and then
19:43
Speaker 3: there's a scuffle and then the transla slowly starts to
19:46
Speaker 3: go very still, and that's when the dread sets in.
19:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. It was as you were walking us
19:53
Speaker 1: through this process. I was watching a video of a
19:58
Speaker 1: child who is one watching this intense deathmatch and kidnapping, abduction,
20:04
Speaker 1: burial of a tarantula, and even the kid seems to
20:09
Speaker 1: think this is this is a little brutal. You can
20:12
Speaker 1: see the tarantula attempt to escape as the paralytic agent
20:16
Speaker 1: is kicking in. But I was surprised by the size
20:19
Speaker 1: because at least in what we're seeing here, the tarantula
20:23
Speaker 1: hawk looks significantly smaller than the creature it's attacking.
20:28
Speaker 4: Yeah.
20:29
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's why it's having the ability to paralyze
20:33
Speaker 3: the tarantula is so important because it's using its smarts.
20:39
Speaker 3: Not really because wasps are done, but in evolutionary terms,
20:43
Speaker 3: like this intelligent strategy over the brawn of the tarantula.
20:48
Speaker 3: That sting is extremely powerful. So there's this entomologist, doctor
20:54
Speaker 3: Justin Schmidt from the Southwestern Biological Institute, and he created
21:00
Speaker 3: a sting pain index and uh. He says, the Transla
21:04
Speaker 3: hawk sting is quote unsurpassed and intensity by any other
21:09
Speaker 3: stinging insect and that a sting feels like a lightning
21:13
Speaker 3: bolt struck the spot. The pain is beyond imagination. And
21:17
Speaker 3: you want to know why he knows this.
21:19
Speaker 1: Did he sting himself?
21:21
Speaker 3: Yep?
21:23
Speaker 5: Oh wow, this crazy bastard like just created this sting
21:30
Speaker 5: pain index by finding a bunch of insects that sting
21:34
Speaker 5: and then having them sting himself and then rating it like,
21:37
Speaker 5: oh yeah, that's yep, that's a ten.
21:40
Speaker 1: How is that guy? Is he still alive? I don't
21:42
Speaker 1: want to I don't want to sound insensitive.
21:44
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, I don't think he's killed himself with insects stings,
21:49
Speaker 3: just subjected himself to quote unimaginable pain.
21:53
Speaker 1: Now from if if A, what I remember is correct,
21:56
Speaker 1: a wasp or notorious for you're just attacking human beings
22:02
Speaker 1: who happen to be around their general vicinity. Are tarantula
22:06
Speaker 1: hawks that way too? Or do they have to be
22:08
Speaker 1: you know, provoked or prodded.
22:10
Speaker 3: They have to be provoked. So the silver lining is
22:13
Speaker 3: they're actually pretty non aggressive towards anything except for obviously
22:18
Speaker 3: tarantula's But I mean, if you get one caught like
22:21
Speaker 3: in your sweater, it'll probably sting you out of a
22:25
Speaker 3: fear response. But yeah, they don't go around trying to
22:28
Speaker 3: attack people, which think christ because.
22:32
Speaker 4: That would be terrible.
22:33
Speaker 3: Yeah, but if you're a tarantula, you know, not such
22:37
Speaker 3: good luck.
22:38
Speaker 1: Wow, And they're so widespread. Yeah, so I guess then
22:42
Speaker 1: one of the big questions I keep going back to
22:45
Speaker 1: is is this evil because it sounds like this is
22:51
Speaker 1: while it's horrific for the tarantula, the victim, the incubator,
22:57
Speaker 1: it seems like it's the only way for these these
23:01
Speaker 1: creatures to reproduce. Is that correct?
23:03
Speaker 3: Like there's no alternative, right, and so this is like
23:07
Speaker 3: this is the key question is now, I don't think
23:10
Speaker 3: a wasp is capable of being evil in the sense
23:14
Speaker 3: that we kind of define it because they're so simple.
23:16
Speaker 3: They're basically like robots. So it's like you wouldn't necessarily
23:21
Speaker 3: describe a virus as being evil because it's so simple
23:26
Speaker 3: and even though wasps are a great deal more complex
23:29
Speaker 3: than a virus. I don't think they can have like
23:32
Speaker 3: the intent or the awareness to be evil. But when
23:37
Speaker 3: you look at it, like you kind of take a
23:39
Speaker 3: step back and look at it from like an evolutionary perspective,
23:43
Speaker 3: where it's sort of more of this emergent intelligence from
23:49
Speaker 3: millions of years of evolution, I mean, maybe you can
23:53
Speaker 3: define that as evil. You know, I'm not talking about
23:56
Speaker 3: like intelligent design or like some god control evolutions, talking
24:01
Speaker 3: about like, you know, you have this sort of like
24:05
Speaker 3: guiding force of evolution that is its own sort of
24:09
Speaker 3: like I mean, it is. It is a form of
24:11
Speaker 3: intelligence where it's like you have to really zoom out
24:15
Speaker 3: to see it, where it's just millions and millions of
24:18
Speaker 3: years of these small changes resulting in something that's so
24:21
Speaker 3: so messed up. And maybe that's like a natural form
24:26
Speaker 3: of evil.
24:26
Speaker 4: I don't know. I guess that's a very philosophical question.
24:30
Speaker 2: Well, I think it is. But it's also interesting because
24:32
Speaker 2: so much of psychopathy is almost like reptilian type behavior,
24:38
Speaker 2: or like non feeling, non empathetic type behavior, which is
24:41
Speaker 2: the kind of things that an insect like this would do, right,
24:44
Speaker 2: like there's no feeling about it. It's just, you know,
24:48
Speaker 2: I must feed, I must feed my baby, and this
24:51
Speaker 2: is how I'm going to go about doing it. It's
24:52
Speaker 2: very callous, for lack of a better term, you know,
24:54
Speaker 2: but you're right, there's no cognition involved. It's just the
24:57
Speaker 2: thing that makes sense and that it's adapted perfectly to do.
25:00
Speaker 2: But I think we ascribe those kind of things to
25:02
Speaker 2: psychopaths as well.
25:04
Speaker 3: Right, because I think with a human, we're like, you
25:07
Speaker 3: should be capable of empathy. But then it's a really
25:10
Speaker 3: uncomfortable question because it's a little more clear when you're
25:14
Speaker 3: looking at a wasp that okay, of course it doesn't
25:17
Speaker 3: understand what it's doing. But you could also make that
25:21
Speaker 3: argument for humans who can't feel empathy, like they may
25:25
Speaker 3: truly not understand the gravity of what they're doing. And
25:29
Speaker 3: then is that sort of like the wasp where you
25:31
Speaker 3: can't really blame them, or is there something else going
25:35
Speaker 3: on with people where it's like, well, you should be
25:37
Speaker 3: smart enough to figure out, like does there even need
25:41
Speaker 3: to be like an intentionality behind evil, because like if
25:44
Speaker 3: it's defined as something where it's like you're incapable of
25:48
Speaker 3: feeling mercy or empathy. Then maybe just like evil doesn't
25:54
Speaker 3: need to be like intentionally evil, it's just a force
25:57
Speaker 3: that doesn't have empathy and then causes harm.
26:02
Speaker 1: So then we would be defining evil as not the
26:06
Speaker 1: addition of something nefarious or insidious, but the absence of
26:10
Speaker 1: an alternative, long term evolutionary strategy, because that's what empathy
26:15
Speaker 1: ultimately functions as, right.
26:16
Speaker 3: Right, right, Yeah, that's really interesting. It's like we have
26:20
Speaker 3: because there are some animals who have evolved a survival
26:24
Speaker 3: strategy that could be seen as like good. So like
26:28
Speaker 3: bees are so social and help each other, so you
26:32
Speaker 3: know a lot of these use social animals. So like
26:35
Speaker 3: bees and ants and even naked molerets, they all seem
26:39
Speaker 3: to team up and pitch in and help each other
26:42
Speaker 3: and care about each other as much as like a
26:45
Speaker 3: bee can. But it does seem like a kinder sort
26:50
Speaker 3: of animal in general than a wasp, even though if
26:53
Speaker 3: you take a bee and a wasp individually, they don't
26:56
Speaker 3: really I don't think they can feel kindness. But you
26:59
Speaker 3: look at the whole the group of them, like a
27:02
Speaker 3: b colony, does seem to have empathy, for it's like
27:08
Speaker 3: each other in a weird way.
27:10
Speaker 1: So what would a tarantula hawk be in terms of
27:14
Speaker 1: the Dark Triad or Dark tetrad, would they would they
27:17
Speaker 1: qualify as a sadist.
27:19
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what I'm thinking, Like these very sadistic because
27:23
Speaker 3: like to keep something alive for up to a month
27:27
Speaker 3: and then slowly feed on it.
27:30
Speaker 4: It's just so.
27:32
Speaker 3: It seems so unnecessarily cruel, even though as we've talked
27:36
Speaker 3: about it, there is a reason for it.
27:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that checks out.
27:44
Speaker 3: As we've just discussed in the Animal Kingdom. Some of
27:47
Speaker 3: the most terrifying examples of sadism are due to reproductive
27:51
Speaker 3: needs in humans. Some of the most dangerous people are
27:54
Speaker 3: those who somehow link sexuality to sadism.
27:58
Speaker 4: This is called a pair off.
28:00
Speaker 3: It's a form of sexuality that is atypical or pathological.
28:05
Speaker 3: Now a huge disclaimer here, I'm not talking about the
28:08
Speaker 3: BDSM community. People who engage in BDSM are very different
28:13
Speaker 3: from those with sexual sadism disorder. The key thing being
28:16
Speaker 3: consent in healthy communication. For BDSM practitioners, consent is extremely important.
28:23
Speaker 3: They may find sadistic acts or masochistic acts to be
28:28
Speaker 3: sexually arousing, but not unless their partner is equally interested.
28:32
Speaker 3: That's why safe words setting clear boundaries and a lot
28:35
Speaker 3: of discussion is often present in these communities, and it's
28:38
Speaker 3: also why psychologists don't consider BDSM to be a disorder.
28:42
Speaker 3: They aren't causing harm to themselves or others while I
28:45
Speaker 3: mean psychologically speaking, but sexual sadism disorder is different. People
28:51
Speaker 3: with this disorder are aroused by the suffering of others,
28:54
Speaker 3: and the disorder is either harmful to the individual who
28:58
Speaker 3: might find it disturbing or upsetting, or to others in
29:02
Speaker 3: the case of sex offenders who seek out non consent
29:05
Speaker 3: and victims. What I find interesting is the difference between
29:09
Speaker 3: people with sexual sadom disorder who choose not to act
29:12
Speaker 3: on it and those who do, meaning that there are
29:15
Speaker 3: some who either have empathy or at least a fear
29:18
Speaker 3: of consequences while still feeling.
29:20
Speaker 4: These sadistic urges.
29:22
Speaker 3: I had a clinical psychology professor who put it this way.
29:26
Speaker 3: The explosive combination is having both a sadistic paraphilia and
29:31
Speaker 3: a clinical lack of empathy. Those are the ingredients to
29:34
Speaker 3: make most types of serial killers. So after a quick break,
29:38
Speaker 3: that will bring us to our next member of the dark.
29:40
Speaker 4: Tetrad this psychopath.
29:50
Speaker 3: So how do you spot a psychopath by the cold
29:54
Speaker 3: look of cruel indifference in their glassy eyes, the pile
29:58
Speaker 3: of bodies in their basements. Well, what about with technology?
30:02
Speaker 3: Psychologists have attempted to quantify psychopathy using brain imaging, which
30:07
Speaker 3: leads us to one of the most interesting stories in
30:09
Speaker 3: brain research. James Fallon is a neuroscientist who was interested
30:13
Speaker 3: in looking at the anatomical characteristics found in the brains
30:17
Speaker 3: of serial killers. He found a pattern of abnormalities in
30:21
Speaker 3: the pet scans of these killers, showing structural aberrations in
30:25
Speaker 3: the orbital cortex, the prefrontal cortex, the ventral anterior cingulate,
30:30
Speaker 3: and the amygdala. As he was shuffling through piles of
30:34
Speaker 3: brain scans on his desk, he was looking through a
30:36
Speaker 3: file on his family's brain scans taken for another study
30:40
Speaker 3: on Alzheimer's. One of the scans had the clear structural
30:44
Speaker 3: abnormalities consistent with psychopathy. Curious as to who and his
30:49
Speaker 3: family was the psychopath, he looked up the name and
30:51
Speaker 3: was surprised to find it was his own brain scan. Obviously,
30:56
Speaker 3: he wasn't a violent killer, so first he wondered if
30:59
Speaker 3: all his recent search about the psychopathic brain was just wrong,
31:03
Speaker 3: But When he took genetic tests, he found that he
31:05
Speaker 3: also had alleles associated with people high at risk for
31:09
Speaker 3: exhibiting violent behavior. He did some introspection and decided, instead
31:14
Speaker 3: of it being a fluke, he may very well have
31:16
Speaker 3: a psychopathic brain. But due to his loving upbringing with
31:20
Speaker 3: parents and siblings who were devoted to him, he suspects
31:24
Speaker 3: he was able to avoid the more frightening violent traits
31:27
Speaker 3: of the psychopath.
31:28
Speaker 4: But when nature is left to.
31:30
Speaker 3: Her own devices, what kinds of deadly killers does she concoct?
31:34
Speaker 3: The deadliest serial killers are often harmless looking. They blend
31:38
Speaker 3: right in, allowing them to continue their killing while raising
31:41
Speaker 3: no alarms. As we'll find out, this is true both
31:44
Speaker 3: in human society.
31:45
Speaker 4: And the animal kingdom.
31:48
Speaker 3: So speaking of psychopaths, let's talk about cats. So, guys,
31:53
Speaker 3: which wild cat would you guess is the most prolific
31:56
Speaker 3: serial killers of them all?
32:00
Speaker 1: Wildcat specifically, Let's see, it's probably smaller than one would imagine,
32:07
Speaker 1: because naturally people would think something large, like a tiger
32:11
Speaker 1: or maybe a lion. But I'm gonna go with something smaller,
32:15
Speaker 1: maybe a bobcat or a wild cat.
32:18
Speaker 3: That's a really intelligent guess. Yeah, because like you have
32:21
Speaker 3: these huge predator cats, so like lions seem really formidable.
32:26
Speaker 3: I mean, they have a thousand psi of force for
32:30
Speaker 3: their jaw strength, so just for comparison, we only have
32:34
Speaker 3: about two hundred psi, so they're so powerful. And you know,
32:39
Speaker 3: there's also like the more sleek ones like cheetahs who
32:43
Speaker 3: can run up to seventy five miles an hour and
32:46
Speaker 3: jaguars who are super like buff and can carry cadavers
32:50
Speaker 3: up a tree. But you're right that even those guys
32:54
Speaker 3: are really terrifying. They're not the most prolific serial killers,
32:59
Speaker 3: and we do have to get smaller. In fact, our
33:02
Speaker 3: most prolific serial killer kitty is one of the smallest
33:06
Speaker 3: species of cats in the world, and that includes domestic cats,
33:10
Speaker 3: so they're smaller than your household kitty. It's this really
33:14
Speaker 3: adorable cat. It's called the blackfooted cat. They're about three
33:18
Speaker 3: times smaller than your pet house cat, and they weigh
33:22
Speaker 3: in about two to four pounds, so females are around
33:25
Speaker 3: two pounds, males can get up to around four pounds,
33:29
Speaker 3: and they have a sixty percent kill success rate, which
33:34
Speaker 3: if you've ever seen a nature documentary and you see
33:37
Speaker 3: how many times a lion us will have a goof
33:41
Speaker 3: up and not be able to catch its prey. Sixty
33:44
Speaker 3: percent is incredible. So they actually look a lot like
33:49
Speaker 3: a house cat, but just like kind of shrunken down.
33:53
Speaker 3: They have big eyes, and they're tan with dark brown
33:55
Speaker 3: spots and striations. And they're called black black footed because
34:01
Speaker 3: their little feets are black. And they're also called ant
34:05
Speaker 3: hill tigers because when they're cornered, they'll like, they'll mess
34:09
Speaker 3: you up, they'll cut you.
34:10
Speaker 4: They're very aggressive.
34:13
Speaker 1: You know, I'm looking at I'm looking at a picture
34:15
Speaker 1: of one right now, and I gotta say these cats
34:17
Speaker 1: are adorable. They look even better than my two cats.
34:20
Speaker 1: My two cats are just you know, cat models. Basically,
34:24
Speaker 1: they have that.
34:25
Speaker 3: Like baby schema because they have the big eyes and
34:28
Speaker 3: the big four heads and they're they're really tiny and
34:31
Speaker 3: just super super cute. You would not think these are
34:34
Speaker 3: a big threat.
34:35
Speaker 1: So what kind of stuff do they hunt?
34:37
Speaker 3: Well, their prey can be pretty small, so rodents, birds,
34:42
Speaker 3: pretty much anything that moves, and they can fit in
34:44
Speaker 3: their mouths though, so they'll do insects, lizards, birds, and
34:49
Speaker 3: small rodents are their favorite. They're mostly nocturnal. They'll walk twenty.
34:55
Speaker 4: Miles a night.
34:56
Speaker 3: So that's the furthest that any small wild cat will walk.
35:00
Speaker 3: And I did a little math and if you scale
35:02
Speaker 3: that up to human size, that's like walking one thousand
35:06
Speaker 3: miles a night, which wow, you know, it's like it's
35:10
Speaker 3: like the Proclaimer's song, like I will walk five hundred months.
35:15
Speaker 2: So does that mean these little sweet babies hunt for
35:18
Speaker 2: sport just like for kicks? Like why why such a
35:21
Speaker 2: high kill rate versus lions who to me seem like
35:25
Speaker 2: they hunt more practically and functionally to you know feed.
35:29
Speaker 3: No, they I mean they just have a rapid metabolism
35:33
Speaker 3: and they for the food that they can't eat on
35:37
Speaker 3: the spot, they storm their burrows. So it's not for fun,
35:41
Speaker 3: it's definitely for nutrition. And these smaller animals will actually
35:46
Speaker 3: have a pretty large nutritional demand because they can't bulk
35:51
Speaker 3: up a lot of calories and then just like sleep
35:54
Speaker 3: it off. They have to be constantly eating.
35:57
Speaker 1: And to be clear, we're talking about the most prolific
36:01
Speaker 1: successful serial killers, not just the most attempts. Is that correct?
36:07
Speaker 3: I mean they actually rack up a pretty high kill count,
36:10
Speaker 3: So I would say they are of the big cats
36:13
Speaker 3: they kill the most per day, so they can take
36:16
Speaker 3: down around fifteen prey items a night, which is a lot,
36:22
Speaker 3: and that includes like birds. So if there's a really
36:26
Speaker 3: cool video I can show you guys, and I'll put
36:28
Speaker 3: that up on our Twitter where it just like jumps
36:31
Speaker 3: up and catches a bird midair and it's got it
36:35
Speaker 3: like jammed in its mouth and it looks very pleased
36:38
Speaker 3: with itself. But yeah, that's like about a kill an hour.
36:42
Speaker 3: So that's I mean, these are small prey items, but
36:47
Speaker 3: you know you scale that down to the size of
36:49
Speaker 3: the cow, which is like two pounds of like pure
36:52
Speaker 3: murderous rage, and that's like, you know, it's like taking
36:56
Speaker 3: if a lion could take down a small gazelle like
36:59
Speaker 3: every hour. So they also do it's so cute. They
37:06
Speaker 3: do the little butt wiggle, you know that thing like
37:08
Speaker 3: when your cat is getting ready to pounce and it
37:11
Speaker 3: like there's a little swigty swootye with its butt.
37:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like Simba and the Lion King.
37:17
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, they do that.
37:21
Speaker 3: They do the little little butt wiggle, and so that's
37:24
Speaker 3: actually not just to look cute. It helps align their
37:28
Speaker 3: feet under them so they can pounce with maximum precision
37:32
Speaker 3: and power like a spring and sometimes they do take
37:37
Speaker 3: down bigger prey though, so they rarely but sometimes kill
37:42
Speaker 3: cape hairs, which way more than them. They're these relatively
37:47
Speaker 3: larger rabbits, So it's just kind of funny because they're
37:51
Speaker 3: just like so amped up on being murderous they don't
37:56
Speaker 3: even think that, oh, maybe this rabbit I can't even
37:59
Speaker 3: carry it because it weighs like twice of me.
38:03
Speaker 2: So is this where the is this where the psychopathy
38:06
Speaker 2: aspect comes in?
38:07
Speaker 3: Yeah, because it's like I feel like their desire to
38:10
Speaker 3: kill these bigger prey items is it's like, clearly, you're
38:17
Speaker 3: not going to eat that, it's too big. I mean
38:20
Speaker 3: maybe you know, they do save it for later, but
38:22
Speaker 3: it's just kind of funny. I don't even know if
38:25
Speaker 3: they could fit a cape hair in their din. So
38:29
Speaker 3: it's just killing stuff because they are driven to kill.
38:33
Speaker 1: I mean, we've all been there.
38:34
Speaker 2: But that's what my house cat does. That is what
38:36
Speaker 2: my indoor outdoor sweet snugly house cat does. Yea, Betty,
38:40
Speaker 2: he's not hungry.
38:41
Speaker 4: Betty doesn't have it.
38:42
Speaker 3: Well, Betty doesn't have a sixty percent kill rate.
38:45
Speaker 2: Though, No, absolutely not. But it's like he is clearly
38:48
Speaker 2: toying with these creatures and you know, just like leaving
38:51
Speaker 2: them in the most twisted arrays I've ever seen in
38:55
Speaker 2: my life. Like it's it's like the well, it haunts
38:57
Speaker 2: my dreams. It's it's bizarre that I guess why I
39:00
Speaker 2: was asking earlier, like does this creature hunt kind of
39:03
Speaker 2: for sport? So I guess some of that does enter
39:05
Speaker 2: into it. If it's not, it's not even thinking about
39:07
Speaker 2: the fact that it can't actually carry it, you know,
39:10
Speaker 2: the kill away. It just needs to feed the urge, right.
39:14
Speaker 3: Right, And well, I mean it's really interesting because with
39:17
Speaker 3: house cats, obviously they don't need to kill anything at
39:20
Speaker 3: all because they're getting fed their little kibbles and bits.
39:24
Speaker 3: But I think they have a desire to hunt. So
39:28
Speaker 3: they're driven to hunt by this, and it is a
39:31
Speaker 3: survival instinct to hunt, because you can imagine if a
39:35
Speaker 3: cat didn't have that and just waited around for kibble,
39:39
Speaker 3: if it lived in the wild, it would be done
39:43
Speaker 3: an evolutionary dead end. But yeah, I mean, it's we
39:47
Speaker 3: can't talk to a cat and say like, hey, do
39:49
Speaker 3: you really enjoy doing this? But my guess would be
39:54
Speaker 3: that they do get satisfaction from it, and even though
39:58
Speaker 3: it is an evolutionary strategy, and even playing with their
40:02
Speaker 3: prey has practical reasons like making sure it's dead and
40:07
Speaker 3: also honing their skills. I mean, they seem to love
40:11
Speaker 3: doing it, and that is kind of psychopathic, isn't it.
40:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point, especially when we consider not
40:18
Speaker 1: just cats, but a lot of similar mammals. Their juvenile
40:22
Speaker 1: phase is spent playing, and playing is really just a
40:27
Speaker 1: less fatal version of the hunting that they will instinctively
40:30
Speaker 1: practice later in life. And I can absolutely see from
40:36
Speaker 1: a neurological perspective, I can absolutely see an animal as
40:40
Speaker 1: evolved as a cat or my cat's enjoying that kind
40:44
Speaker 1: of thing. It's scratching an itch. Your body and your
40:46
Speaker 1: brain will tell you it's a pleasurable and correct thing to.
40:50
Speaker 3: Do, right right. I mean, like we do have video
40:53
Speaker 3: games where we like to kill stuff. So it makes
40:56
Speaker 3: me wonder if we might have something like that deep
40:58
Speaker 3: inside us, where we kind of, you know, maybe have
41:03
Speaker 3: that killing instinct that's just been over many, many hundreds
41:07
Speaker 3: of thousands of the years of cultural and societal evolution,
41:10
Speaker 3: has been sort of put inside a little box and
41:14
Speaker 3: locked away, except in the cases of.
41:16
Speaker 1: Serial killers, right, Well, in the defense of my cats,
41:22
Speaker 1: Doctor Vankman and mister Jackpott have to shout him out here. Yeah,
41:25
Speaker 1: and that's the real names. In defense of my cats.
41:28
Speaker 1: They have at the very least never paralyzed. Someone buried
41:32
Speaker 1: them alive and put a kitten inside of their bodies
41:36
Speaker 1: to a month.
41:38
Speaker 3: But would cute, Like would a kitten bursting out of
41:42
Speaker 3: a tarantula be cute or horrible?
41:45
Speaker 4: I can't know.
41:46
Speaker 1: I'm on the fence. I'm honestly on the fence.
41:49
Speaker 3: Because if that was if that was backwards, like a
41:53
Speaker 3: transla bursting out of a kitten, that would obviously be horrible.
41:56
Speaker 3: But when you do it in verse, it's kind of cute.
42:00
Speaker 3: I mean, I still feel bad for the tarantula, but
42:03
Speaker 3: you know, hey, it's.
42:04
Speaker 2: A kid for sure, so it's pretty crazy. You mentioned
42:08
Speaker 2: Fallon the neuroscientist. Yeah, he's actually in this show that
42:12
Speaker 2: I'm working on called Happy Face. It's like a true
42:15
Speaker 2: crime show about the Happy Face killer, and it's about
42:18
Speaker 2: this guy's daughter. And in the show, she goes and
42:22
Speaker 2: gets analyzed by this guy to try to figure out
42:25
Speaker 2: whether she herself has inherited her father's psychopathic tendencies and
42:30
Speaker 2: It's really interesting because it's like there's a lot of
42:32
Speaker 2: discussion around it, whether it's like is it all nature,
42:35
Speaker 2: is it all nurture? Is it a combination of the two.
42:37
Speaker 2: Can you really figure out just from someone's brain skin
42:40
Speaker 2: whether or not this is true. It seems like a
42:42
Speaker 2: very kind of like surfacey way of figuring that stuff
42:46
Speaker 2: out because it's a combination of a lot of factors.
42:48
Speaker 2: But he actually talks a lot about psychopathy in the
42:50
Speaker 2: animal kingdom too, and how it's actually can be a
42:53
Speaker 2: positive trait. Yeah, Like you know animals that our psychopaths
42:58
Speaker 2: will kind of they'll go places that other animals won't,
43:02
Speaker 2: and they will actually breed more successfully and things like that.
43:05
Speaker 2: It's I'm not explaining it super well, but it's.
43:08
Speaker 3: No that makes sense, Yeah, because like psychopaths, one of
43:12
Speaker 3: their characteristics is risk taking and not having a fear
43:15
Speaker 3: of the consequences. So in some cases that could obviously
43:19
Speaker 3: be very bad, but for some animals that will bring
43:24
Speaker 3: you a reward if you are bolder and take a
43:28
Speaker 3: risk and try something novel, that lack of fear will
43:31
Speaker 3: actually give you a leg up over your competition.
43:35
Speaker 2: That is exactly what he was talking about. You know that.
43:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, so long as they survive to reproduce. Yes, right,
43:41
Speaker 1: So that's that's that's the Vegas Odds part.
43:46
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's really interesting. I've actually listened to some
43:51
Speaker 3: of that podcast. It's so I think that is it's
43:54
Speaker 3: such a personal perspective on the nature versus nurture because
43:59
Speaker 3: she's I mean, from my perspective, she's obviously a very
44:02
Speaker 3: empathetic person to be so worried about that part of
44:07
Speaker 3: her nature, but I can totally imagine how that would
44:10
Speaker 3: be that you're wondering, like, well, any behavior you feel
44:14
Speaker 3: where it's like maybe you know you have sean Freud
44:17
Speaker 3: of sometime, or you feel angry, you wonder like, well,
44:21
Speaker 3: is that me? Or is that like these genes inside
44:25
Speaker 3: me puppeting me.
44:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you might not have made it far enough
44:27
Speaker 2: in the series. I don't want to spoil anything, but
44:29
Speaker 2: it does come into play, like the way she's dealt
44:32
Speaker 2: with relationships and kind of her emotional kind of closed offness,
44:36
Speaker 2: and that's a big part of it, and wondering if
44:38
Speaker 2: she can actually feel things the way quote unquote normal
44:41
Speaker 2: people can. So it's something that really like haunts her
44:44
Speaker 2: and bothers her, and at the end of the series
44:46
Speaker 2: she kind of figures out, you know, at least as
44:49
Speaker 2: far as this guy's concerned, what she is.
44:51
Speaker 3: Yeah, the story.
44:55
Speaker 4: Of the most prolific serial killer.
44:57
Speaker 3: In human history is one that's more true tragic than gruesome.
45:01
Speaker 3: Harold Friedrich Shipman was a bespectacled, bearded man, very ordinary
45:06
Speaker 3: and meek looking. He was a doctor, married and had
45:09
Speaker 3: four children. Not someone whom you would peg as a
45:11
Speaker 3: cold blooded killer, but he killed two hundred and eighteen people,
45:16
Speaker 3: committing crimes undetected.
45:18
Speaker 4: For twenty three years.
45:20
Speaker 3: Shipman was a GP who had his own practice near Manchester, England.
45:25
Speaker 3: He targeted the most vulnerable people as his victims, his
45:29
Speaker 3: own geriatric patients. Most of his victims were the elderly
45:33
Speaker 3: women in his care to whom he gave lethal doses
45:36
Speaker 3: of morphine.
45:37
Speaker 4: He had a typical pattern.
45:38
Speaker 3: He would give his victims a lethal dose of diamorphine,
45:42
Speaker 3: signed their death certificates, and then alter their medical records
45:45
Speaker 3: to falsely indicate that their health had been in decline.
45:49
Speaker 3: Shipman was an outlier even among serial killers, as there
45:52
Speaker 3: was no clear motive for the crime, except in one
45:55
Speaker 3: case he altered his victim's will to make himself the
45:59
Speaker 3: benefit of three hundred and eighty six thousand pounds, something
46:04
Speaker 3: the victim's daughter found to be awfully suspicious. So why
46:08
Speaker 3: did he kill It's hard to know for certain. As
46:11
Speaker 3: a teenager, he witnessed his mother received morphine for terminal
46:14
Speaker 3: cancer until she died of the disease. Some of the
46:17
Speaker 3: psychiatrists who've looked at his case speculate that he had
46:20
Speaker 3: a deep seated need to control other people, something influenced
46:24
Speaker 3: but certainly not caused in total by his mother's death.
46:28
Speaker 3: Another possibility psychiatrists have proposed is that he felt a
46:31
Speaker 3: sense of relief from stress or pressure by killing his patients,
46:35
Speaker 3: as he considered them a nuisance. This is the heart
46:39
Speaker 3: of what a psychopath is. Coldly, flippantly cruel. We need
46:44
Speaker 3: a minute to clean our brains with images of cute cats.
46:47
Speaker 3: Wait is that a blackfooted cat? And is that a
46:50
Speaker 3: baby bird in its mouth?
46:51
Speaker 4: Oh no, We'll be right back.
47:02
Speaker 3: Machiavelianism through the scope of psychology is defined as a
47:06
Speaker 3: duplicitous manipulation with a disregard for morality, putting personal gain
47:11
Speaker 3: before any feelings of empathy. Think Little Finger from Game
47:15
Speaker 3: of Thrones, someone behind the scenes manipulating and pulling strings,
47:19
Speaker 3: causing destruction for others for their own game. But fortunately,
47:24
Speaker 3: Machiavelians can only manipulate, not mind.
47:27
Speaker 4: Control their victims.
47:29
Speaker 3: However, the natural world is not so merciful. We're going
47:33
Speaker 3: to discuss a Machiavilian animal that is literally pulling the
47:36
Speaker 3: strings using real life mind control. So mind control and
47:42
Speaker 3: hypnosis is often explored in popular culture. From the Manchurian
47:46
Speaker 3: Candidate to Jessica Jones were fascinated by the idea of
47:50
Speaker 3: thought control. So, you know the Purple Man and Jessica Jones,
47:54
Speaker 3: it's such a creepy villain.
47:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, yep, yep, yep, Doctor Who, David Tennant, Yeah, he's.
48:00
Speaker 3: So lovable in Doctor Who. But then his man he's.
48:03
Speaker 2: Just I think, so he's got he's got a good range.
48:07
Speaker 2: I trust him. You don't trust him as Doctor Who?
48:10
Speaker 2: Was it after watching Jessica Jones that you stop trusting.
48:12
Speaker 1: Him Doctor Who? No, No, I just don't. I don't
48:15
Speaker 1: trust his mouth.
48:16
Speaker 2: Is it because he has a bunch of hearts? He's
48:17
Speaker 2: got like ten hearts or something.
48:19
Speaker 1: That's just shallow?
48:21
Speaker 2: That's fair.
48:22
Speaker 1: But yeah, the Purple man for background for Jessica Jones
48:26
Speaker 1: emidst pheromones that force people to obey his suggestions, right right, Yeah.
48:34
Speaker 3: It's like he issues at command and then the person
48:37
Speaker 3: has to do it because of some kind of metichlorians
48:41
Speaker 3: or whatever. I haven't watched the whole show, so I'm
48:43
Speaker 3: not sure, but yeah, that's it's so creepy to me
48:47
Speaker 3: because like like one of the worst possible sci fi
48:51
Speaker 3: horror scenarios where serial killer mind controls you into digging
48:56
Speaker 3: your own grave or just following him into his like
49:00
Speaker 3: kill basement. But I have bad news for spiders again.
49:05
Speaker 3: This is a very spider unfriendly podcast. Orb Weaver spiders
49:11
Speaker 3: are spin these really neat, precise webs. They're actually very
49:16
Speaker 3: beautiful the webs the spiders are. I mean, I think
49:19
Speaker 3: they're cool, but people have hang ups about spiders for
49:22
Speaker 3: some reason. So now wasps again come into the picture
49:29
Speaker 3: and just are so mean and are such assholes. So
49:34
Speaker 3: female parasitic wasps lay an egg onto the orb weaver's abdomen,
49:40
Speaker 3: and if you've been listening, you know, and once a
49:42
Speaker 3: wasp lays an egg on you, you're in for a
49:44
Speaker 3: bad time. So the orb weaver is still alive, and
49:50
Speaker 3: the spider becomes mind controlled by the wasp larva, and
49:55
Speaker 3: instead of spinning its beautiful lace like web, it dismantles
49:59
Speaker 3: its web and creates a cocoon for the parasitic larva
50:04
Speaker 3: to live in. And then, because wasps, again, there are
50:09
Speaker 3: such huge assholes, the larva will suck on the spider's
50:14
Speaker 3: juices until the spider dies, and then the larva just
50:18
Speaker 3: checks its carcass away like a soda can, and it
50:21
Speaker 3: makes itself nice and cozy in the cocoon that the
50:25
Speaker 3: spider had woven for it, against its will. It's so
50:29
Speaker 3: crazy to me that you can have such a precise
50:34
Speaker 3: method of mind control that the larva not only gets
50:38
Speaker 3: to eat its victim but makes it spen a little
50:42
Speaker 3: cradle for it as it develops and so it can
50:46
Speaker 3: stay safe.
50:47
Speaker 4: It's just so creepy.
50:49
Speaker 1: So it's slave labor at that point, too.
50:51
Speaker 4: Right, a slave that you eat later.
50:54
Speaker 3: Yeah?
50:55
Speaker 1: Yeah. So are these wasps as common as the tarantula hawk.
51:03
Speaker 3: They aren't as widely distributed, So the ones that we're
51:06
Speaker 3: going to be talking about are found in Japan. So
51:11
Speaker 3: researchers in Japan wanted to look into this behavior. Because
51:15
Speaker 3: it's so crazy how precise that mind control is. And
51:22
Speaker 3: they found that the cocoon that the zombie spider weaves
51:27
Speaker 3: for its parasite is very similar to the molting stage
51:32
Speaker 3: web that the spider, a healthy spider, will weave for itself.
51:37
Speaker 3: It's a protective cocoon designed to keep the spider safe
51:40
Speaker 3: while it molts its exoskeleton, and it's actually made out
51:45
Speaker 3: of this special ultraviolet spider silk so that birds and
51:50
Speaker 3: flying insects will avoid crashing into it. So like normally
51:54
Speaker 3: when a spider builds its web, it wants insects to
51:57
Speaker 3: run into it so that you can eat them. But
52:00
Speaker 3: if you're all naked and exposed and don't want something
52:04
Speaker 3: to kill you, you wrap yourself up in like this
52:06
Speaker 3: neon light of like warning naked spider in here. So
52:11
Speaker 3: researchers found that there was higher levels of this substance
52:17
Speaker 3: that's called twenty oh ectisone, and it's the same hormone
52:22
Speaker 3: that controls molting. So in these zombified spiders, they are
52:29
Speaker 3: being mind controlled into thinking that they're going through their
52:32
Speaker 3: molting stage. It's unknown how the wasp is actually manipulating
52:38
Speaker 3: this hormone, but it's not just mind controlling it into
52:43
Speaker 3: thinking it's molting. It's actually a step above that because
52:47
Speaker 3: it's somehow commanding it to go into this like super
52:50
Speaker 3: molting mode where it's building an extra strong cocoon, more
52:56
Speaker 3: reinforced with greater tensile strength than the spider's normal molting cocoons.
53:01
Speaker 3: So it's like it's beyond just like thinking it's molting.
53:05
Speaker 3: It's creating a mega safety bunker for the parasite that's
53:10
Speaker 3: planning on murdering it.
53:12
Speaker 1: So wait, wait, So the downside is that you are
53:18
Speaker 1: being a mind controlled and then you're going to die.
53:22
Speaker 1: But the upside is that you get super strength or
53:27
Speaker 1: I guess the equivalent of spider superpowers.
53:29
Speaker 3: Well, your your webbing does. So you're creating spider silk
53:35
Speaker 3: that has is extra reinforced because the molting spider silk,
53:40
Speaker 3: like in a healthy orb weaver, that's creating a cocoon
53:44
Speaker 3: for itself to molt inside that that webbing will be
53:47
Speaker 3: reinforced and stronger.
53:49
Speaker 4: To protect it.
53:50
Speaker 3: But for the parasite, it's like it's bringing out the
53:54
Speaker 3: good stuff. It's bringing out the big guns, the big
53:57
Speaker 3: webbing guns, and creating really really strong webbing to protect
54:02
Speaker 3: the parasite. So, I mean, I would think it's not
54:07
Speaker 3: necessarily clear in the research yet, but I would think
54:09
Speaker 3: that somehow it's just being flooded with these hormones and
54:15
Speaker 3: make like this extra strong signal for it to produce
54:19
Speaker 3: the molting webbing in a way that's like it's over
54:22
Speaker 3: signaling so that the parasite benefits from the super strong cocoon.
54:27
Speaker 3: So this is what's called an ectoparasitoid. It's a parasite
54:32
Speaker 3: who will live externally on its host and eventually kill it.
54:37
Speaker 3: But some parasitic wasps will lay their eggs directly inside
54:42
Speaker 3: the spider, and then the larvae eat their way out
54:44
Speaker 3: of the spider like an alien chest burster.
54:48
Speaker 4: It's really disgusting.
54:50
Speaker 1: And just for a safety check here, there are no
54:53
Speaker 1: wasp that do this to people, right, no use, there
54:56
Speaker 1: none big enough to do it yet.
54:58
Speaker 3: Okay, not yet, not that we know can help.
55:02
Speaker 2: But think of whatever. Whenever I think about this paras
55:06
Speaker 2: parasitic stuff doing things to animals to make them act
55:09
Speaker 2: against their own self interest, I always think of that
55:11
Speaker 2: parasitic fungus like erupts out of ants heads. Yeah before right, yeah,
55:18
Speaker 2: before it does that, doesn't it also do some kind
55:20
Speaker 2: of crazy mind control that makes them do something that
55:23
Speaker 2: like benefits the fungus itself.
55:25
Speaker 3: But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, crawls up a stock like
55:30
Speaker 3: a plant stock, and then it's final. The ant's final
55:34
Speaker 3: act is to cling onto the stock with its mandibles,
55:38
Speaker 3: so it its brain is being so manipulated by the
55:43
Speaker 3: fungus that it's like clinging onto the stock with its mandibles.
55:47
Speaker 3: And then that's really good for the fungus as it
55:50
Speaker 3: grows out of its head and then produces spores because
55:52
Speaker 3: it's got a solid anchor down onto the onto the
55:56
Speaker 3: plant or the branch.
55:58
Speaker 5: You know.
55:58
Speaker 1: One that while we're speaking of parasites, one that worries
56:01
Speaker 1: me as a cat owner is Toxoplasma gandhi.
56:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we all probably have that, Like that's why
56:09
Speaker 2: we're nice to cats.
56:09
Speaker 3: I don't know, so, yeah, you probably if you clean
56:14
Speaker 3: up the cats litter box and you don't obsessively wash
56:17
Speaker 3: your hands every single time, you might have it. And
56:22
Speaker 3: I mean there's actually a pretty good chance, like if
56:24
Speaker 3: you've owned cats over a long period of time. It's
56:27
Speaker 3: generally not a problem for humans unless you're pregnant, in
56:30
Speaker 3: which it can cause birth defects or miscarriage. And the
56:34
Speaker 3: other thing it's been linked to is potentially triggering schizophrenia.
56:39
Speaker 4: That's a very very.
56:40
Speaker 3: Rare almost just like it's not going to happen to you,
56:45
Speaker 3: but it it is a documented effect, So they can
56:49
Speaker 3: a cat can literally cause schizophrenia in a person via
56:54
Speaker 3: the tea GANDHII. So I think we need to talk
56:59
Speaker 3: more about how spiders are terribly mistreated in nature. So
57:04
Speaker 3: there's another mind controlling machiavellian manipulator called the spiderfly, and
57:12
Speaker 3: it's a fly that injects itself into the spider's abdomen,
57:17
Speaker 3: lodging itself near the lung. And here's the crazy thing.
57:22
Speaker 4: It can remain there for.
57:24
Speaker 3: Years while it completes its development. So once it's finally
57:28
Speaker 3: ready to molt and emerge from the spider, it controls
57:33
Speaker 3: the spider into spinning a protective cocoon, just like we were.
57:37
Speaker 4: Talking about with the orb weavers.
57:39
Speaker 3: Then it eats the spider from the inside out, which
57:43
Speaker 3: is just the worst, but at least these ones are
57:48
Speaker 3: kind of cute and fuzzy, so unlike the wasps, the
57:53
Speaker 3: spiderfly they're sort of like these little bumbling cuties entomologists
57:59
Speaker 3: fr describes them as having a floating sort of flight,
58:04
Speaker 3: rather undulating and uncertain. It has the habit of buzzing
58:07
Speaker 3: around and circles when it falls over on its back
58:10
Speaker 3: on a smooth surface, often doing this for some time
58:13
Speaker 3: before it can regain its feet. Most of the time
58:16
Speaker 3: it is making a high, thin humming sound. So it's
58:20
Speaker 3: just like it's this dopey, kind of like dorky little fly.
58:25
Speaker 3: But then it's really horrifying and living inside a spider
58:29
Speaker 3: for years before killing it.
58:31
Speaker 1: And this isn't like a marsupial situation, you know how
58:35
Speaker 1: like a Joey can enter and exit the pouch of
58:38
Speaker 1: the parent.
58:39
Speaker 2: It's more like a chest burster.
58:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, I can't fly back in and out.
58:44
Speaker 3: It's a chest burster situation, but with like a cute
58:47
Speaker 3: little like Elmo esque muppet character, Like if an alien's
58:53
Speaker 3: just like the chest burster birthstud, it's like it's it's
58:57
Speaker 3: he low.
59:00
Speaker 1: I'm kind of sold.
59:01
Speaker 2: It reminds me of this terrifying toy my girlfriend got
59:04
Speaker 2: my daughter for a birthday other day. It's like a
59:06
Speaker 2: tiny puppy that lives inside a croissant and you turn
59:10
Speaker 2: the croissant inside out and then the tiny puppy emerges.
59:13
Speaker 2: But it's really unclear, like the scale of it, Like
59:15
Speaker 2: is it meant to be a tiny puppy or a
59:17
Speaker 2: giant croissant? They really don't make that clear. But yeah,
59:21
Speaker 2: that's not very sciency at all. But that's what I'm
59:23
Speaker 2: picturing this whole time. I'm sorry. I don't know why.
59:25
Speaker 4: Toys have gotten weird.
59:28
Speaker 2: They really have, they really have.
59:32
Speaker 3: You might be comforting yourself with the knowledge that you're
59:35
Speaker 3: not a spider and you're in no danger of a
59:38
Speaker 3: fly hiding out in your lungs, But I want to
59:40
Speaker 3: tell you the story of the human version of a spiderfly,
59:44
Speaker 3: a secret hideaway killer that will have you checking your
59:47
Speaker 3: cross spaces tonight. The Dinver spider Man doesn't really deserve
59:51
Speaker 3: his name. His real name was Theodore Edward Coney's. He
59:56
Speaker 3: was a drifter who in nineteen forty one decided he'd
59:59
Speaker 3: settled down, but there was a little problem. The home
1:00:03
Speaker 3: he chose was already occupied. Coney's found a trap door
1:00:07
Speaker 3: in a closet that led to a tiny attic cubbyhole.
1:00:11
Speaker 3: He went undiscovered for five weeks, leaving his Heidi hold
1:00:14
Speaker 3: to occasionally steal food out of the fridge. One day,
1:00:18
Speaker 3: the homeowner, seventy three year old Philip Peters, discovered Coney's
1:00:22
Speaker 3: as he was foraging for food. Philip whacked Coney's with
1:00:26
Speaker 3: his cane, and Coney's responded by brutally murdering Philip, bludgeoning
1:00:31
Speaker 3: him to death with an iron stove stoker. Police investigated
1:00:35
Speaker 3: the murder, but they found no signs of a break in,
1:00:38
Speaker 3: and though they found the door to the attic, they
1:00:40
Speaker 3: didn't explore it they thought it was too small for
1:00:43
Speaker 3: any human person to fit through. After the murder, the
1:00:46
Speaker 3: victim's wife and the housekeeper reported hearing strange noises in
1:00:51
Speaker 3: the night, and they believed the house was haunted, so
1:00:54
Speaker 3: they moved out and Coney's presence remained unknown. He stayed
1:00:59
Speaker 3: in the vacant house until nineteen forty two, when police
1:01:03
Speaker 3: came to make a routine check and they heard noises
1:01:06
Speaker 3: coming from the second floor. They followed the noise and
1:01:09
Speaker 3: saw a pair of legs vanishing into the trapdoor. They
1:01:14
Speaker 3: grabbed them before he could disappear. He was tried and
1:01:17
Speaker 3: convicted for Phillip's murder and spent his life in imprisonment,
1:01:22
Speaker 3: although really was that a punishment? His sell probably felt
1:01:26
Speaker 3: like a sprawling estate compared to the tiny nook he
1:01:29
Speaker 3: hit away in. So do you have any crawl spaces
1:01:32
Speaker 3: in your home? No reason, just curious, all right, So
1:01:38
Speaker 3: thank you guys for coming on. This is really fun.
1:01:42
Speaker 3: Do you guys have anything to plug?
1:01:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much for having no skatie yet.
1:01:46
Speaker 1: You can catch Snola and myself on our show Ridiculous
1:01:50
Speaker 1: History and come out twice a week. You can find
1:01:53
Speaker 1: us on Instagram, Facebook.
1:01:57
Speaker 2: All the podcast places, mainly, Yeah, what's the show? We
1:02:00
Speaker 2: kind of just go into some of the weirder, little
1:02:04
Speaker 2: off the beaten path kind of history nuggets. It's a
1:02:06
Speaker 2: very kind of snackable show. Episodes are like thirty to
1:02:09
Speaker 2: forty minutes, very bingeable. It's a lot of fun to do.
1:02:12
Speaker 2: And we also do other show called stuff they Don't
1:02:15
Speaker 2: Want you to Know, where we take an open minded
1:02:17
Speaker 2: approach to conspiracy theories.
1:02:20
Speaker 1: I would say we take a critical thinking approach to.
1:02:22
Speaker 2: Conspiracy is much better and more accurate.
1:02:25
Speaker 1: So you can find us on those shows. You can
1:02:28
Speaker 1: find us all over the regular internet places and wherever
1:02:32
Speaker 1: you find your favorite shows. You can also when you
1:02:35
Speaker 1: find us on the social media stuff, just hit us
1:02:38
Speaker 1: up directly. We're pretty approachable, unlike some of the animals
1:02:42
Speaker 1: that we met in today's episode.
1:02:44
Speaker 2: We don't bite you guys, aren't or yeah, or inject
1:02:49
Speaker 2: you with paralyzing venom.
1:02:51
Speaker 4: Well that's polite of you, guys.
1:02:53
Speaker 2: You know, we try to be affable. It's sort of
1:02:55
Speaker 2: like our that's our adaptation is like the super affability.
1:02:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is always like been stop injecting people with
1:03:02
Speaker 1: paralytic agents.
1:03:05
Speaker 2: That was before my time.
1:03:07
Speaker 3: So you can find me at Katie Golden or at
1:03:10
Speaker 3: pro Bird Rights where it's revealed I'm actually a bird.
1:03:15
Speaker 3: And you can check out the podcast every Wednesday on
1:03:19
Speaker 3: iTunes or the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts,
1:03:24
Speaker 3: and just hit us up on Facebook, Twitter, and our
1:03:27
Speaker 3: website is Creature featurepod dot com. And thanks to the
1:03:31
Speaker 3: space Cosax for letting us use their wonderful song Exolumina.
1:03:40
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
1:03:43
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.