Latest / MIDDLE GROUND - Real Conversations on Faith, Identity & Becoming — Through Brynne's LDS Lens of Curiosity, Love and Doubt / Hiding Faith Doubts for 8 Years: From Temple Marriage to Agnostic Life — Rob Clark

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Hiding Faith Doubts for 8 Years: From Temple Marriage to Agnostic Life — Rob Clark · MIDDLE GROUND - Real Conversations on Faith, Identity & Becoming — Through Brynne's LDS Lens of Curiosity, Love and Doubt

• Brynne Erickson (01:05) Rob Clark, thanks for being on middle ground. How are ya? Rob (01:07) Hey, I'm good, thank you. Thanks for inviting me. I'm excited to be here. Brynne Erickson (01:12) Yeah, absolutely. Well, good. Rob and I are neighbors. Well, we were neighbors. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. I was 06. Rob (01:20) Back in the day, back door through the forest neighbors. But we had a little bit of an age gap. Remind me when you graduated. I was six. So you went to school with Adam, my little brother? Brynne Erickson (01:33) I was wedged Rob (01:36) Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, you were just a little baby before I probably left on my mission and went to college and it's kind of funny you come home and now they're all grown up and now they're peers instead of little children. Yeah, but we were neighbors. Still kind of are. Yeah. And you live next door to where I kind of grew up or at least spent some time and I work with your husband a little bit and yeah. Brynne Erickson (01:42) Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah, isn't it funny how that happens? We were same, still, same town. Rob (02:05) So I know your family a small amount. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (02:08) Yes. Yes. I just, Rob works with my husband, Alan in search and rescue and thinks very highly of Rob. And I don't know you really well. Like, I don't think we've ever like sat and talked or anything. Rob (02:25) I mean, I was, like I said, I was 18 and you were, you know, 11 and then I was gone. So yeah, no, we never have. Aside from, you know, how are you? So yeah. Brynne Erickson (02:35) Mm-hmm. And then I had the thought to bring Rob on and have him share his journey of faith and what he's learned about life up to this point. So I have no idea. I honestly have no clue where life has taken you or what you've discovered and where you are today. So I'm really stoked about this conversation. Rob (02:48) yeah? Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm happy to talk about myself, I guess. I'm not much of a self-talker, but I can regale you with tails, I guess, if asked. Okay. Brynne Erickson (03:01) Yes. Yes, let's do it. know that you mentioned when I reached out to you that you've never verbalized your journey before. So what's come up for you as you've been preparing for this conversation? Rob (03:19) I, it actually has been far more stressful than I would think. And I'm a guy who deals with an inordinate amount of stress. And so it, takes a lot to, you know, put me on my butt and make me think. And this, this made me think for a minute. And, uh, and it's because, well, I obviously have, have left the church and, um, you know, I'm going a different route, if you will. I had to obviously tell some people and. let them know this is what's going on. Or I felt an obligation to do so. So I did so, but when you're in the middle of that conversation, people want, maybe am I going off topic too quick? Or maybe it is the right topic, right? Brynne Erickson (04:04) No, no, this is great. Yeah, this is kind of your big like where you are and then we'll kind of backpedal a little bit. Keep going with that. Rob (04:10) Okay. Yeah. Yeah. When you, when you tell people that they want reasons and, they don't want to listen, you're making an announcement. And that's just, I think that's human behavior. When someone brings you to you, world crushing news or life altering news, it's, you're not there to converse and understand as much. You're there to be shocked. And obviously you should try for understanding, of course, but it's just a much briefer conversation. Of course, I've been thinking about these things for years and so I was very well prepared, but that's a rough conversation. But it's a briefer conversation, I think, or that maybe it's more raw. Maybe that's a big part of it. It's just more raw. But now it's been five, six, seven, I don't even know years. but I've since then never once really had to talk about it. You know, every now and you run into discussions with people and you chat. But I've never really had to think, okay, what are they going to ask me? What's my answer? Do I know all the answers? Of course not. And just, you know, how do I phrase it? Because I want to help people understand. And like we were talking beforehand, I think everybody is fine. And I don't have any problem with anybody on any journey, whatever choices their journey they're taking. And so I didn't want to come off as, I think there's a bad rap with a lot of ex-Mormons. They just get so bitter and negative. And I'm not that way at all. I didn't want to, well, I have some negative things. I shouldn't say negative things to say. I have some things that I don't agree with or that I feel are negative that, you know, caused me to make my choices. But I don't want to come off as like, That's wrong. No, if that's, if you are okay with whatever I happen to not be, you know, then I'm totally good with that. My wife still goes to church. My kids still go to church and I'm totally okay with that. And I support it. I go to church when, you know, I went, I think last week, my boy passed the sacrament for the first time. So I just wanted to make sure that I was able to convey my thoughts and feelings about a very controversial topic. in a very productive way. So it was was an yeah, thoughtful way. It was a very interesting thing. I didn't prep. just kind of had to think through about a little bit. Like how do I say some of these things so I don't offend my parents or offend somebody, you know. So it's been a little weird, but here I am talking about faith, which is not something I talk about much. Brynne Erickson (06:36) thoughtful way. Absolutely. you I love that. Well, I feel honored to be hearing it. Rob (07:01) well, here you are first person full in depth all the wise I guess or however deep you want to go. Brynne Erickson (07:05) Hmm. Do you wish you talked about it more? Rob (07:13) I think. Not for me at this point in my life. No, I, you know, I don't have a need to talk about it for me, but I would be more than happy to talk about it for someone else. And that's what I feel this is. I don't, and maybe I'm wrong. Maybe at the end of this, I'll feel like I got, I shouldn't say I'm not going to get anything out of this. That sounds very, um, you understand what I mean? Like, I don't think this is for me. I think this is for other people, but we'll see, you know. Brynne Erickson (07:17) Okay. Mm. Yeah, you're good. Rob (07:46) That sounds kind of hoity-toity, doesn't it? I don't know what that means. Yeah, yeah, I'm not doing this for closure. I think I'm good, but who knows? Maybe at end of this I'll be crying and we'll have closure. And I'll be like, I never knew I wasn't. I had an open wound festering and here I am. So we'll see. Maybe this is the salvation of me or something. We'll Yeah. Brynne Erickson (07:51) Now I understand. Now that's great. Ugh. We will see. But anyway, so you kind of dove right in, which is beautiful. Let's back up just a little bit. No, it was great. So let's go to your beginning. You were raised in the LDS faith. Yeah. Rob (08:13) Sorry. Tell me where, yeah, I'll go up to the mission. Does that work? Kind of how it was? Yeah. So yeah, I was raised in what I would call a very religious household in the LDS faith. I would put our family's kind of faith, if you will, on the higher end or the more involved. And so it was very religious. Brynne Erickson (08:24) Sure. Yeah. Wherever you want. Rob (08:50) church, going to church was not a would you like to go to church? It was a requirement in our home. And all the things that I think so many people are familiar with. so grew up with that. And yeah, so that's kind of the environment, I guess, my dad, my dad and both my parents were very involved in the church. Everything was was very church focused scripture study every morning, whether you liked it or not, And all the activities, know, all that stuff, you know, great stuff. Those activities were great. Scouts was one of the best things in my life. And that was church back in the day, right? Now Scouts is a whole other thing, but back then it was your priest group going on a camping trip, really. And in my, when I grew up, this is kind of strange. We had, if I can remember right, 20 something missionaries out at some, at the same time. Brynne Erickson (09:27) Hmm. big part of it. Wow. Rob (09:47) from our ward, and that was my age group. And it maybe was 18, maybe it 23. It was a crazy amount of numbers. And so I grew up extremely religious household, but in an extremely religious area, But I also had 20 of my friends, neighborhood friends, best friends, peers. that we're all in the exact same boat. We all go to church, you know, and, and we all go camping at Scouts. And so it was a great, great environment from a social perspective. And, um, was it a good, uh, environment fostering faith and, and, and belief? No. Was it a little forced? I feel so. Um, but you know, oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. It wasn't an option. You, um, Brynne Erickson (10:32) Did you feel that at the time? Rob (10:39) You know, there's, was conversations where in this household you go to church and there was just no questions about it and and it was, it was expected and you'd done it your whole life. And so I don't think I ever really questioned much of it. it just kind of is what it is. I'm sure there was times where like, I didn't want to go to church, but for the most part, no, I think it was just, yeah, this is what we do. so yeah, I would say. Aside from the general, want to sleep in stuff from a teenager. It was just how you, how life was. had, I didn't know any better, right? I had no friends outside of the faith, no really contact. you, know, thinking back, I don't remember many, if any non-LDS friends. And so it's just kind of what it was. and it was normal to me, right? So that was kind of my childhood in, with, in regards to the family and religion, I guess. Brynne Erickson (11:36) Okay, great. And then you go on a mission. Rob (11:41) Yeah, so we're on a mission was Brynne Erickson (11:46) Did you start to shift on your mission or how was that experience for you? Rob (11:51) No, I did not start to shift on my mission. know, going on a mission was a requirement. Did I have a testimony? Absolutely not. Did I know I did not have a testimony at the age of 18? Yeah, or 19, sorry. Yeah, I knew I did. But 20 of your peers going, it's been instilling in you your whole life. It's what you do. And so I kind of said, well, it doesn't really matter. They all say, you'll get it out there in the field. And so... I went on a mission and, and was excited and, uh, served my mission and, um, generally did, uh, I would say very, very well, um, was in a lot of, uh, leadership positions trained five or six times. Um, you know, I, I, and I, I remember there was a point on my mission where I was praying to know, you know, if what I'm doing out here makes sense and then I don't remember what I was going through and I don't remember if it was a, I was homesick or if I was really trying to figure out if this was true, but I praying and looking for that still small voice that they say you'll fill and, never ever felt it. but I remember thinking, well, you're here. You might as well just go do it. You know, and I remember saying to myself, you know, it's true. Just kind of like, well, you never felt that, but you know, it's true. Just go work. And that's how I went out through my mission. And that happened earlier on in my mission. And then I went out and I just worked my butt off. And it was one of the best, funnest, coolest experiences of my life. And I would say, extremely forming for me as well. So that's how I got on the mission. And yeah, I finished it out, extended my mission, stayed longer, another transfer period. And then after my mission, I went back several times to visit Taiwan. Yeah, so actually, he was in my mission. He was in he was in Taichung, right? Brynne Erickson (13:59) Wow. Where'd you surf? Very cool. That's my brother's roof. was he? I believe so, yeah. Rob (14:15) I remember I talked to him before he left. Yeah, I think your mom had him call me. yeah, so I can't remember if he was there when it was Taiwan was two, two missions or three. But when I was there, it was three. And I was in the middle one, which is now kind of the south one, but it was a formative. I loved it. I, I actually deal with China every single night. I'm talking to China. Brynne Erickson (14:18) Have fun. Okay. Cool. You loved it. Rob (14:44) I have friends over there. speak Chinese, obviously. And it's been one of the best experiences of my life, to be honest. I loved it. Brynne Erickson (14:53) So you'd recommend it. Rob (14:58) No, wouldn't. I would recommend my mission and that timeframe of a mission. Now, no. Now it's not. And again, every generation says the next generation's soft. And that is true to some degree. But missions aren't what they used to be. Now mission presidents just go out and babysit children that don't want to be there. Brynne Erickson (15:00) Interesting. Elaborate. Rob (15:28) that have more mental issues and other issues than ever seen before in any statistic, including church statistics. And they're FaceTiming home every day, calling girlfriends. I mean, it's just not what it was when I was out. when we were out, was, suck it up. You talk to your parents twice a year. We wrote letters home and you couldn't go home because you would be shamed to death. Like that was never an option on anyone I talked to and or my radar. just, you did not go home because back then it was, sadly you were very ashamed. Nowadays it's just, it wasn't for you. And it's a very different environment now, but it's also a very different mission where I just don't think they get out there and they, they have that. Brynne Erickson (16:19) Mm-hmm. Rob (16:27) that work drive and that mentality. just too, they're not detached enough to really focus. I mean, what else did we have to focus on? We didn't talk to our family. know, you just, all it was was to ride your bike faster and work and try to get people baptized. so yeah, now would I recommend it? No. Do I support my boys going? Absolutely. Do they think Brynne Erickson (16:34) Mm. work. interesting. Rob (16:56) The two youngers of course are a hard yes. Absolutely. My heart, my oldest who's 16 has always been a hard yes, but now he's kind of growing up and he's now, uh, I think he's a yes, but it's not as hard. don't know now, but, I just don't, I don't think, and I think anyone would agree. It's not what it used to be. And maybe that's not bad, but it's for everything I took and then maybe that's a problem. Maybe I shouldn't expect my boys to get out of the mission of what I got out of mine. And I should allow them to have their own experiences. But knowing what I know now, what I recommend it based on what I don't know, but maybe that's what my boy, my six year old boy needs. And it's the best thing ever. And he's going to come back saying I worked my butt off and he did. And yeah, it's just a different time. He got to call his mom every week. And that's just the time it is. And he comes home, he's like, we worked our butts off and my grandpa probably said the same thing about me. He's like, they don't work anymore. And you know, maybe it's a generational thing and I'm up in the night. I don't know. And I'm sorry I'm not giving you a lot of eye contact. I'm like thinking a lot. So I look around. Yeah, this is deep. Okay. Brynne Erickson (17:54) Yeah. Who knows? you I love it. No, this is great. Yeah, you do you. This is perfect. Okay. I love that so much. So church thing. Didn't like getting out of bed, but you conformed. You did it. You had a great mission. Rob (18:23) Yeah, and I would think generally happily did it all. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (18:26) That's how I feel too. Like it never bothered me. I never even knew the questions to ask. I never cared to like, I was very happy, very content. then temple marriage. Yeah. Okay. And then what started to shift? You said about five years ago that you exited. Rob (18:30) Yeah. Yep. Yep. no, no, that's when I probably officially I'm actually not if I'm not officially exited, by the way. I'm officially a member still. That's when I probably came out. Yeah, because I just don't care enough to do anything about it. But that's when I probably, you know, I say came out to my parents and just like, can't hide this anymore. So for me, it started in my 30s. And I can actually Brynne Erickson (18:49) But this was. Okay. Okay, so non-participating. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Rob (19:15) I think pinpoint a pretty big turning point for me. You know, I guess we have to go back a little bit. you know, growing up, as you said, you never even think to ask the question. And you're right. And that's a product, I think, of growing up where we grew up. Why would you ask a question? We all go to church on Sunday. I don't know anybody that doesn't go to church on Sunday. And if they do, they're there next week because we went after them or whatever. So why would you ask a question like we're not, there's no, there's no counter argument to anything we're being told, taught, et cetera. And that's how it was back then. Now, and if you, I remember at least, you know, don't look at anti-Mormon literature. Don't look at anti-Mormon. like, I don't even know really what that is. And you hear things that people accuse the church of and And then you're told it's just anti-Mormon, it's just anti-Mormon. And everything that you ever heard or saw that was against the church's belief or narrative, then it was anti-Mormon. And you accepted that. And I think it's just one of those things that you start getting older and I start traveling. I spent a lot of time, you know, all over the world. Brynne Erickson (20:36) Yes. Rob (20:48) living in different states, etc. And you start, people ask those questions, or, hey, what about this? Oh, that's anti Mormon. And for years, probably my whole 20s, I mean, I lived in New York for a spell in Manhattan. And, you know, those questions came up all the time. And it's anti Mormon, it's anti Mormon. And, but then you end up softening, I think that belief when enough people ask you and you then you start asking questions. And that's, I think the big key is You were taught, don't ask questions. Just this is how it is. And if it's against, you hear anything against this, then that's anti-Mormon. And it was accepted and that's just how it was. You didn't know any better. And then in my thirties, I started reflecting on that kind of stuff and thinking, well, that's how you control a population. That's how you manipulate a person is you control the information and anything that goes against that information, you discredit it. See this in politics, right? You push out your narrative, anyone that is against that, you discredit them, you call them anti this fascist, whatever, anti Mormon. And, and I'm a voracious, voracious or voracious, I'm a voracious reader. I read three to four books a month, mostly history and that type of stuff. And so you start seeing how populations were controlled throughout history. it, oddly enough, is the same paradigm as the LDS Church is control the narrative. when anything against that, that's anti-Mormon, don't be friends with him. How many times were you told as a child, you can't be friends with them because they're not Mormon? You know? And... Brynne Erickson (22:40) Me personally, no, but I know that that was a thing. Rob (22:44) And I don't think it ever happened to me. didn't, but I know a bunch of friends that it happened to. And I know while it didn't happen to me, it was not encouraged. it wasn't actively discouraged, but it was kind of like, you know, we're not going to encourage this friendship. And if there's an opportunity that, I can't take you over to this person's house today because I'm busy. We're going to take the opportunity. I'm a parent. do stuff like that all the time. Right. Brynne Erickson (23:13) Yes. Yeah. Rob (23:14) You know, at the parenting thing, so I get it. you know, you just, that's kind of how it was. And that was okay. And then into my thirties, I started thinking and seeing, know, well, that if I was running the church, that's what I would want to do. If I was running a business that relies on anything like a church does, I would want to control a narrative. That's why we preach. That's why we talk. all kingdoms and dictatorships and populations have this to some degree. But then the Pearl of Great Price, they came out and said, in for lack of a better terms, just kidding, this isn't translated. This is a inspired work. And that was where I said, you can't do that. Truth doesn't change. Now, if this is God's church led by God's prophet who speaks for God on behalf of God and is guided by God, which I think we can, everyone knows that's what they preach and that's what they say. Well, okay. Well, then why was that wrong? Truth can't be wrong. But for years we were taught this was translated from such and such. And now the church has said, essentially they've said, We taught you wrong or we were mistaken or we changed our mind. And God doesn't do that in my mind because that's a doctrinal thing that he has given us to learn doctrine from. So I don't see how that could change. And so that was a big point I remember and, which started meeting. casually for years, very casually. I was not on a mission to go prove the church wrong. I was just like, huh, that doesn't seem right to me. And that was the first time I think in my life, aside from not liking the pressures of church, which all churches have and that type of thing. That was the first time in my life, I think in regards to the church that I was that's not right. There's things I don't like, like sure, I would have loved to not go to church, but it's right. I should. That was the first time I was like, no, that something's not right here. And so just kind of, I didn't actively start seeking, like I said, to prove anything or find anything. I just started being open to the idea. And that was a progression of... five, six, seven, eight years. And it obviously got more and more eye opening and more and more deep and I got more and more pushed out. I should say pushed, I chose. I chose to investigate more and more and because it just started more and more. That doesn't make sense over the course of years. And then I Don't remember the exact day or any of that that I fully decided or fully checked out. Do you know, I'll be honest, I guess that was the day I decided when I finally decided to tell my parents was that I have fully checked out because I was still going to church this whole time, doing all the things, wearing garments, et cetera, elders corn president, know, just everything And, but I was, that doesn't make sense. And then you just, When you start opening yourself to not. I don't like to, I don't want it to sound negative, but as we mentioned earlier, the culture we were in and the timeframe and period we grew up was, you know, it like a horse with blinders, right? And then, and that's kind of what we were, was describing earlier, and then the blinders were slowly taken off. And it's funny, I use the chocolate chip cookie analogy that we learned in church all the time for the exact same opposite. I started eating chocolate chip cookies or chocolate chip billboards of why the church is wrong. And then I started looking in a little more and now I'm eating chocolate cake. And you just progressively move down and to where I had to make a choice. And I'm like, I can't support this and I can no longer be a part of this. And that was the easy part through all of this journey. But the hardest part that I wrestled with for probably three years. Brynne Erickson (27:50) you Rob (28:14) was how to tell people, how to disappoint and ruin my parents' hopes, aspirations and dreams for me. And going back to what I said earlier, church was everything. so, while I'm, you know, still might be able to be a successful person in life, one of the most important things to my parents, I gotta go tell them that I'm done and I'm not gonna be a part of that anymore. So. That took me three to four years probably to wrestle with, come to terms with. And in that timeframe, I started going into therapy for this reason, or largely for this reason, to figure out how do I ruin everyone's perception of my identity. Brynne Erickson (29:11) Bye. Rob (29:15) and their hopes and their expectations that I've done. I've done everything. I did the mission. I went to college and then I get married in the temple and my wife expects and that was... I knew my wife would be understanding and would be good. And I married the most loving, best person in the entire world. And I knew she would be okay with it. But I was really scared about the disappointing her and how she would feel with me leaving and what that would mean from her belief system. in regards to implications of eternal families, right? But I honestly was more worried to tell my parents than anything, than even my wife. And I guess that makes sense because you become closer to your wife over time and you grew up with your parents in a time of malleable molding and expectation and you know, it's just a normal thing. And so, but yeah, then I finally decided to and Brynne Erickson (30:05) Yep. Mm-hmm. Rob (30:31) easily the hardest day of my life, probably, or one of them. And afterwards, you know, it's the same thing with any secret you've been hiding for years, biggest weight in the world. And you just feel light as you know, just like they say, light as air all of a you're driving home just floating. And just you feel so light. And I remember that feeling. And that was a big deal. But getting there was it was a journey. It was a 10 year struggle. The struggle was when I finally got to the end of what I knew I needed to do was how to tell Brynne Erickson (31:14) So how did you navigate this with your wife? Rob (31:18) I don't remember. Brynne Erickson (31:21) Did you include her from the beginning? Did you be like, Marin, I've got some problems? Or did you keep it concealed for quite a while? Rob (31:21) That's it. No. No. Again, it's something I don't dwell on or think about, so I don't know. I think I kept it pretty open with her and I think she knew. Yeah, she had to have because there was about a year or so where I was sometimes not wearing garments and so she knew. So yeah, I was, and especially in the last three years. So once I decided, she 100 % knew, so I don't. I don't know for how long she knew before, I just told her and she kind of think, I think she kind of saw me struggling through it and she was just supportive the whole way. And it's funny, I don't remember much of it. but that's roughly how it went, I guess. Cause it just went smoothly with her, no problems. I don't remember when I told her. I don't remember where we were. I just remember there was tears and she took it like a champ. And that's about all I remember. Yeah. And then after that, I had to figure out how to go to the rest of the world, I guess. And it wasn't, oh, it wasn't because I needed them to know my stance. It was just I needed them to know why I wasn't wearing the garments. And I don't know, I guess, because I'd always be like, make sure I wear a little longer shirt when I go to my parents' house so they see I don't have a garment top on or make sure this. Brynne Erickson (32:38) And then do you just have converse? sorry, go ahead. Rob (32:59) And it's funny when I told my dad, like, I've noticed you haven't been wearing your garments. I was like, crap, because I haven't been doing that good of a job. But as it was, yeah, you just had to kind of just be like, all right, can't keep hiding this because it's so much energy to hide something, whatever it is, right? It takes it consumes you and when it's something of this magnitude in a person's life, at least it was in my life. That's a hard thing. Brynne Erickson (33:16) Mm-hmm. Rob (33:29) See you Brynne Erickson (33:32) Yeah, I believe that if Satan is a real thing, I'm not really quite sure. But anything that causes us to hide and stay stagnant, to be alone, secluded, to me, that is all like what I would consider the enemy or Satan because it makes you feel alone and isolated. Rob (33:36) Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (34:00) which to me, light and good doesn't want you to be in that space on your own. Rob (34:01) So. Do you think that is a divine thing or a human nature thing? Or are they the same? Or a know, little both. Brynne Erickson (34:17) Sigh Rob (34:19) Because humans are tribal, right? Why are we tribal? Well, scientifically, survival. But from a theological standpoint, is it because we need to be together? You we want that togetherness. We don't want to be alone in our struggles. Brynne Erickson (34:21) Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah, whether divinity is something outside of us or it's just something already within us, I'm not sure. Maybe it's some of both. But yeah, it definitely, when you are in a space where you feel that you have to hide because you're not worthy of being that part of you with your community or in public or being seen that way, like it's one thing to be like, Rob (34:45) Yeah. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (35:07) I just don't like people, right? Like that's one thing, but it's when it's another thing that you feel like you have to hide because you're ashamed of it. To me, that is not what my God would want for us. Rob (35:14) Yeah. Yeah, I think, like you said, anytime you feel alone or shame, I just think shame is a, it's such an awful thing in regards to, I mean, parenting, for example, that's, I catch myself all the time. And I think it's a common parenting thing is you, at least I, I not so much anymore, but I remember I'd divert to shame, like you'd want to, you know, Brynne Erickson (35:46) Hmm. Make him feel bad. Great. Rob (35:47) mildly of course, I'm not abusing my kids, but you you kind of catch yourself. You're like, that's not, no one should feel that, right? No one should feel that. And sadly, I think we as people just, you know, there's so many things and especially when there's such a morality question. I think, yeah, anything regarding morality, there's so much shame. Brynne Erickson (36:12) Mm-hmm. Rob (36:19) And is there shame outside of morality? Good question. don't think there is. So maybe there, you have to have morality to have shame or your viewpoint of morality, right? But, Brynne Erickson (36:31) Absolutely. Otherwise you would do things and not feel bad about it. Rob (36:36) which is, guess, Satanism is definition, right? No consequences, no matter what, no conscience. You do whatever you want, don't feel anything, which doesn't make any sense to me, but... Brynne Erickson (36:45) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I don't understand either. Rob (36:51) Yeah. But yeah, it was the hardest journey or thing I've had to do in my life, I would say by far. And it's sad that it was because I felt shame. And if I hadn't had that shame, I could have just gone through a little bit of research, made a decision on my own, been like, this is what it is. And it would have never been a thing, but instead it was a 10 year thing. And then you look back and wonder about, you waste 35 years of your life? Or was it for good or what, what, what good came out of this thing that you're not against, but so, uh, aligned differently. I mean, you're just, you know, I should say I'm not against at all. I support lots of it, but. You know, we're aligned differently. We don't believe the same thing. Brynne Erickson (37:53) Well, let's answer that question right now. Did anything good come out of those 35 years? Rob (38:00) Yeah, think a lot of bad came out of it and a lot of good. And I don't think that has anything to do with Mormonism necessarily. I think it just has to do with growing up. There's just good and bad. And yeah, I I look at parenting now and man, I sure do like those morality standards of the LDS church right now. Like, oh. You know, and I don't apply the same standard to myself because I think, man, I wish I had done this decision when I was 16. That would have been a pretty fun high school experience. But, and here I am now with a 16 year old, I'm like, man, where's that strength of youth pamphlet? Because there are some great things in there. And, and while yeah, I've left the church, I very much align on the, probably every one of the morality things. Brynne Erickson (38:44) You Rob (38:55) you know, I'm very much in line. And so yeah, a lot of good came from it. And it made me who I am. And so I don't think anybody can, I think it's intellectually dishonest to say no good came out of something. No, you, some good came out, you learned something and with an experience, but this was my life. So it's who I am. it, well, yeah, it's my identity, but it's shaped my personality. It's shaped my identity. Brynne Erickson (39:16) your identity. Rob (39:23) And it's a part of me. It's a part of my identity now. so, you know, do I wish it was different? Yeah. But what do I know? You know, that's just such a theoretical question that doesn't have any value. Right? It is what it is. It made me who I am, for better or worse. And all I'm trying to do is, yeah, I can't change it. I can't be angry at it. I can't dwell and wish and be a victim of it. Brynne Erickson (39:23) There we go. Can't go back. Mm-mm. Rob (39:51) of anything for that matter. It's just, it made me who I am and it made some choices. I went on a mission and had a great experience. I had a great experience, you know, in church growing up. I learned some great values. I learned some great things. I was an excellent public speaker in college. Had awards for that and like emceeing and that probably came from church, you know? So I don't know, just it made me I am. So I think a lot of good came out of it. But a lot of things were missed too that I could have experienced. And I'm not talking about I'm gonna go get, I'm gonna go drink in high school. I don't mean that, but just what did I miss out? Because I kept blinders on and I didn't hang out with that kid because he wasn't Mormon. What did I miss? Or maybe what did I not miss? But what could I have done for him? Because I did the blinders and I... culturally that is a thing, but I also chose that so maybe I should have been better, right? Maybe I should have been better and then like, yeah, I believed in all this, but I don't need to not be friends with people. But I believe that whether it was taught or not, I'm not saying that, you you kind of, so did a good come from it? Absolutely. And it made me who I am. And I mean, I met my wife largely because of it also. That's all great news. We never want to change that. Brynne Erickson (41:21) have you learned about you in this process? Rob (41:28) as it pertains to spirituality or just me in general. That's a good question to which I will proffer a different response, which is, What I really learned. is not to hide things. And, you know, it took me 10 years and going through that. And that's what I really, I think, changed and learned. And it's, you know, there's a difference between being respectful and hiding things. But, you know, just be who you are. And if people don't accept you for who you are in any regard, then you don't need those people in your life. And if you're constantly chasing after acceptance for people in your life, then what are you working for? What is that for? That's for them, not for you. So be who you are, accept who you are, love who you are, accept it, and don't hide it. then if the people who are around you after the rubble's fallen, those are who you wanna keep close, and the ones you lost, didn't need them anyways. Brynne Erickson (42:53) How do you learn to, like at what point was it worth coming out versus just dealing with it and doing the things? Rob (43:10) You know, I think that's, that's a hard thing to pinpoint. But for me, it just, at some point, you know, just became so much. And I was so in agreement and so firm in my decision that it just became almost overwhelming. And why am I, I just looked at my age, you know, I'm 35 ish at the time. my parents aren't gonna die till 75, 80 and I actually did a math problem. I'm like, I've gotta live like this for 50 more years. And I'm like, this sucks. I've tried it for three, I'm not gonna do it. So I just decided not to do it. So was a math equation, which is kind of weird, I'm a pretty logical thinker. the odds were in the favor to tell. Pros and cons list. Brynne Erickson (44:03) I love that. Rob (44:08) So I did and I'm so glad I did and then I learned so much easier to just like, it's like they say when you got to apologize to somebody just rip the bandaid off, get it done, talk to somebody, get it over with. Cause man, it's just too much energy and it just destroys you. Brynne Erickson (44:26) Yeah, it eats away at you. Rob (44:28) Mm-hmm. Yep, it kind of consumes you and that is a Mormonism teaching as well as a good person teaching. you know, it's got to get rid of the bad. Have good, good feelings and be okay with yourself. And that was a struggle for a minute. You had to decide this isn't a me thing, a me issue that I've made this choice anymore. I've made the choice, it's over. Brynne Erickson (44:39) Mmm. Rob (44:56) Now this is then everyone else's problem. They can choose to love me still or not. I've done my side. I've done my decision making or whatever. Either way, I've done all I can do. So get it off your shoulders and move on and let the chips fall where they may. Brynne Erickson (45:01) Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Was therapy helpful? Rob (45:17) And getting me to, yeah, I think it was, yeah. Just because it was a sounding board that I might be able to, there's a different perspective that wasn't your wife. You know, your wife, my wife is so loving that sometimes it's like, I need you to disagree with me here and fight. because again, I'm a logical person. I'm not going to you for reassurance. I'm going you to. Brynne Erickson (45:40) Yeah. Rob (45:47) figure out where I'm wrong or get a different perspective so I can really understand this. And so it was good in that regard, just to be able to talk to someone and then, and I think he's the one that really laid it out. Like, is this how you want to live the rest of your life? And yeah, yeah, he was the one. He was the one that basically asked that question is, you know, because he knew I was struggling, was getting torn up and he's like, well, how long do you want to do this for? Brynne Erickson (45:49) Mm. Rob (46:16) And so then, you know, we had a few sessions on how and, you know, do you feel like your parents won't love you after this? And yeah, I'm a little legitimately concerned. But no, I don't think so. But, you know, it's just that but who's done this that that I know I don't know anyone. But luckily, my brother-in-law actually did about a month before me. Yeah. And, and he was kind of the Brynne Erickson (46:40) Really? Rob (46:46) to just the doll word child of my parents were really, on board with my brother-in-law and could do no wrong type and very enamored and he's a great guy. I love him to death. But then he left and I was like, maybe this is a sign. He just paved the road for me. And so I think it was about a month, maybe a month and a half after he did that I said, he paved the road. Hopefully it's a little easier. Brynne Erickson (47:16) Yeah. Rob (47:16) I do remember that, I forgot about that. Brynne Erickson (47:23) so do you believe in a higher power like or God or any form of? Rob (47:28) I am what would be called optimistically agnostic. You know, atheism is you can basically, you do not believe until you can prove there is. Well, I can't prove there is and I can't prove there isn't. So that puts me in the agnostic category. Would I sure hope there is? Man, that would make things a lot more understandable and a lot easier. So do I hope there is? That's why I say Brynne Erickson (47:33) Hmm. I like that. Mm-hmm. I see. Yep. Rob (47:57) I'm optimistic agnostic because man, I hope so because if not, then that's a which is my current worldview is a very depressing worldview about why are you here? What is the question? Why are we here? What are we doing? Where are we going? And if you don't believe in a higher power, it's a little depressing, you know, and so I'm optimistic but Brynne Erickson (48:01) Hey Rob (48:24) nothing has been able to get me, nothing can prove it. I've definitely decided that, you know, Mormonism is not the one true church. Is it a great church that does great things? Absolutely to each their own. But is it that whole one true church? Sorry, you're not Mormon, you're not getting in and we didn't get you through the temple. You know, no, but it's just not for me. But, I forgot the original question. Did I answer it? I feel like I'm very ranty tonight. Well, we'll see. All right. All right. Cause I don't even remember what the question was at this point. Brynne Erickson (48:55) I love it. I'm building on it. This is great. Yeah, just what guides you today. I got, yeah, anything else? Rob (49:06) what guides me? Well, is diagnostic. I think what guides me... You know, the argument would be if, if God's not guiding you, then only you are guiding you and your man and man has urges, desires or whatever that don't align with God or necessarily society. But what guides me is just be a good human. And I hate saying that because everyone's definition of good is different and, and who determines what good is. Well, if it's not God, then is it society? Is it just where we are? We just have decided or what we feel? Is it consciousness? Is it God? I don't know, but I just try to do what the right person would do or what is right and or what would Jesus do? I could still use that. You know, what would he do? And, know, he would do the right thing. there's so am I very much grounded in Christianity principles? Yes, very much so. Do I? Maybe I should say. Brynne Erickson (50:00) Sure you can, yeah! Rob (50:13) Maybe I should say principles. Maybe I should say morality. Yeah, I'm very much grounded in that. Do I want my kids to not have sex ever? Yeah, that'd be awesome. Will you tell marriage? Hopefully, I hope so. But, well, actually, I don't. But that's a whole other topic. But I wait for a lot of years, like 20 pluses. Yeah, when you're adults and not children. But yeah, so what guys mean is that, I guess, and I know that's loose and but Brynne Erickson (50:23) You There we go. All right. Rob (50:43) I think it generally aligns with what everyone, you included, would consider the right thing or what's good. And it kind of falls back to what you said, God or not, no one should be alone. No one should feel shame. And, you know, so what am I doing today? And what does that cause to people or to myself? And, you know, is it in mine or everyone's best interest? Brynne Erickson (51:10) Yeah, and that's kind of where I've landed too, like, because good and right are so subjective. And I like the word helpful. And obviously that's subjective too. But for me, it's like, is it helping somebody as best as you can? Obviously there's times when you're helpful and the person doesn't take it as helpful. Rob (51:33) I think you could change one word in that and it would work better. that is, could it help someone? Cause it's not up to you, right? It's up to them. So could it and, somewhere, yeah, somehow. And, yeah, I think that's a great guiding principle is am I helping others around me? And really that what else are we doing? If not, right? We got it. We're here. Brynne Erickson (51:38) Could it help somebody? Mm-hmm, yeah, yes. Could it be? Rob (52:03) on this rock, we've got to make our lives better. And our lives are better with people. And we love people and we care for people. our lives are, and we, that's how love is, right? Getting, helping others, serving others, your family, your friends, and surrounding yourself with people that you love and care for and help. And we'll do the same for you. And you know, you don't always know what you have to offer, but you're there. And, Brynne Erickson (52:30) Yeah, absolutely. Rob (52:32) My whole neighborhood knows, even though I don't go to church and I'm not whatever, they call me first. And so yeah, helping could help somebody. hope I, I hope I could help somebody or help a can help somebody in some way on a daily basis by everything I do. Like this podcast, for example. And that's, that was my original point is, it's not for me. I, I'm good, I think. But hopefully this can help somebody who had a thought. Brynne Erickson (52:50) Yeah. I love that. Rob (53:02) Similar or you said something similar, you know, it puts people on these little tangents and makes them think and that's it think Think decide I mean, yeah, if somebody is telling you not to ask questions What is that person? Look out through history in religion politics military the second they say just trust it or just Brynne Erickson (53:08) Correct. Think. Ask questions. Mm-hmm. Rob (53:32) keep doing it, don't ask questions, whatever. Anything along those lines, that's when your ears should go up and you should say, why? Why can I not question? Why? Right? Every bad thing in this world started with something like that. Do this, don't question. I can't think of a lot of bad things anyways. Brynne Erickson (53:59) The irony of it is that the whole preface of the LDS Church is it started with a question. Rob (54:06) That's what one of the things that really, really bothered me is don't ask questions, just pray harder, just keep going and it will come to you. like, well, it was based, the whole church's foundation is based on this. So why can't I? Brynne Erickson (54:10) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I wonder what point that kind of got manipulated. Because I don't know that that was ever supposed to be the messaging. Like, get our history is messy. Humans are messy. And I can see why we would conceal polygamy and racism for backlash and fear of what people would think and do. Rob (54:32) That's true. yeah. Brynne Erickson (54:49) So not to necessarily justify the answer, but I try to see all the sides as I'm trying to make a decision on what I want to think and believe. And I like to give people grace too, because I hope people give me grace when I'm stupid and I make mistakes. But I don't know if the narrative was ever meant to be like, don't ask questions ever. Rob (54:56) Yeah, and that's smart. Well, that means you're intellectually honest. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (55:17) But it's interesting that at least a wide enough of people took on that messaging, that mentality at some point in the church's structure. Rob (55:28) Well, it did happen. I think the point was when people started having access to information, that's when the church got into trouble. And actually all the data pushes that, like that's when the numbers just went wrong. when I walked out of the room from my dad, it was a... Brynne Erickson (55:38) There go. We couldn't hide it anymore. Mm-hmm. There you go. Rob (55:53) was a three hour conversation about me leaving the church. He said, what is going on? Why is everyone in your age group leaving the church? And I said, it's access to information. And that everything we were told was anti-Mormon turns out was history. And the church didn't want that out there. And like I said, if I was running a church and that was in our past, I wouldn't want it out there either. back when it was happening, polygamy and all this stuff, they didn't think it'd get out there because there wasn't the internet. But then comes the internet and it didn't happen immediately because the internet had to take some time. This didn't happen in the 2000s, but 2010-ish, I don't know. Everyone started getting information and that's when the church started changing all their policies to reflect the information that was now in light that they came out and all admitted is true. part of what pushed me. But yeah, it's, I think it's access to information is what's changed everything. And that that's not just this church that look at the political landscape, it's changed everything. Also, now we have access to information, because we're getting it from all these different sources now where 10 years ago, you had your access to information was controlled through the media, you know, and same thing when people control information, people Brynne Erickson (57:04) Mm-hmm. Rob (57:20) Sheep follow. Brynne Erickson (57:21) Well, and that begs me to wonder, like, so even though we have access to all the information today, now it's ciphering what's true, right? So, my gosh, it's exhausting, right? So what have you learned about truth? You kind of talked about that word in the beginning. What have you landed on? Rob (57:29) That's especially after AI. I think truth has two connotations. There's the truth, which is fact. And then I think truth has a lot of religious connotations in my mind. So ask me the question, are you asking me what truth, what I believe truth is, or do I, what I believe fact is? I guess I'm asking my own question. I don't know. I'm told you I'm rambling tonight. I'm rambling. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (58:08) No, we're processing. This isn't rambling. This is processing, Rob. Rob (58:12) What's truth? Anything? Well, I guess I'd go back to this scientific thing. It's anything you can prove. Well, that's truth. That is science. And until proven otherwise, that's truth. And that's how science works. Until we prove this atom can't, does not, or can't do that, it can't. So I would say truth is what is provable. Now, That doesn't mean, for example, I can't prove there's not a God. That doesn't mean it's not true. Doesn't mean there isn't. I can't prove it. So is it truth? I don't know. Hope so. But that I think truth is fact to me and reality and not a conjured reality. And I think that's the big difference is people create their own realities. And I think this happens with relationships a lot more. And we all do that to some degree. And so I try to say, like you said earlier is ask a lot of questions because their reality is their truth. But this is still a pen that writes something, you know, whether they believe it or not. Brynne Erickson (59:23) Yep. Rob (59:33) Okay, I believe that's not called a pen. You could convince me I'm wrong because I can't prove it's called a pen. But it puts things on words. We can agree to that. So that's truth. So I don't know. That's a hard question to answer. What's truth? What's right and wrong? Who decides? But I think that's kind of where I fall is if I can reasonably prove or reasonably believe reasonably based on my life experience and Brynne Erickson (59:39) Mm-hmm. Rob (1:00:02) what I know is factual or what the world knows is factual, then great. Otherwise, it's a hope or a wish or a desire, which are also equally important. You have to have those. Brynne Erickson (1:00:12) Yeah, I think so. Okay. All right. We've talked about a lot of awesome things before we close here. Rob (1:00:20) We did. Did we get anywhere you wanted to go? Brynne Erickson (1:00:24) beyond. We've, this is great. No, beyond in a good way. I love it. Okay, let's wrap it up with what is the purpose of life to you then? Rob (1:00:25) I'm sorry I was chatting to start chatting, chatting. Okay, good. I don't think there is one. Brynne Erickson (1:00:41) Why are we here, Rob? Rob (1:00:41) and it's depressing. I have decided. And again, I'm optimistically hoping I'm wrong, I think it's an evolution thing. I think we're just cells. We evolved into this and we're going to keep evolving. I just think we're just organisms that think and I don't think we go anywhere. I think it's just over. Brynne Erickson (1:00:50) Okay. Why do you choose to believe that? Rob (1:01:13) because all scientific data supports it and no theological anything can prove it. I, again, this is, you have to preface this with because of my journey with the church, I now am very much, I want to see the data. And if you show me the data and you can prove this, then that makes sense. And, We see evolution everywhere in the world. We all agree it's a thing, right? Animals evolve. Why do we not think humans do? And the only argument is that they don't is that I think, and I could be wrong, is that we were created in God's image. And so we're perfect. But we are, could be, there's an argument for that, right? Yeah. And I can't, I can't disprove it. Therefore it could be right. I, but I believe until I Brynne Erickson (1:01:48) Mm-hmm. What if it's divine evolution? Right? Rob (1:02:13) get some information that makes me feel otherwise that and it's depressing. I hope I'm wrong. I do. I really do. But I don't believe I am at this point in my life. I am open to being proven I'm wrong on anything. But at this point, I don't feel I am. So back to the purpose of life. Make it the best life for everyone around you you can because I think this is it. Brynne Erickson (1:02:22) Huh. Interesting. and for yourself. Rob (1:02:39) Yeah, you're right. Brynne Erickson (1:02:41) Hmm. Well, and I've heard on the flip side, people say, I hope that there isn't more because this experience has been so exhausting. Rob (1:02:49) I wonder those people if they say that out of situational exhaustion or if they truly have just had the worst life and none of it's their fault, which I find hard to believe because I think, yeah, life's exhausting, but then you're doing it wrong. You need to rethink how you're doing it is the way I look at it because it is exhausting. And when I'm most exhausted, I have to look at it and be like, well, I'm doing something wrong. Brynne Erickson (1:02:55) Mm-hmm. Rob (1:03:17) because if this is my one chance or my one chance to prove God I'm good enough to allow a second chance, well, very good going then, right? It's miscease today. Is that carpe diem? Yeah, carpe diem. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (1:03:29) That's a thought. Seize today. Carpe diem. There we go. Seize the day. Is there one thing you wish every human on earth knew or believed? Rob (1:03:42) Right now, the first thing that came to mind is all politicians are corrupt. That makes me sound like a right-wing liberal. There's a lot going on right now. like, my gosh. but what would everyone believe? That we're all the same. And I would say Brynne Erickson (1:03:46) you crazy. Hmm. Rob (1:04:01) You can never see someone struggles on their face. Everyone has their own personal demon struggle and they're always hiding it. Everyone's wearing a mask. So help people take theirs off and take your own off. Brynne Erickson (1:04:05) Mm. Good advice. Rob (1:04:24) I don't know if someone said that if it sounded good. Maybe we should coin that. Brynne Erickson (1:04:27) Yeah, quotes Rob Clark. It's yours now. Rob (1:04:31) Okay, I'll write it down, start saying it for my boys so when I die they'll be like, my dad always said. Brynne Erickson (1:04:36) Yes. So good. Well, Rob, this has been a treat. Thank you so much for taking off your mask and showing us your journey and your lights. And this has been really awesome. So thank you. Rob (1:04:43) Hey, thanks for having me. Well, thank you. It was interesting to think through it and sorry for having to think through some things that I've never had to talk about. So thanks for bearing with me, but hopefully it was good. It was great. Thanks for letting me have Beyond. You too. Brynne Erickson (1:04:58) Nope, this was perfect. It was, it was awesome. Absolutely. Have a good night.