Latest / The DEX Show: A Show for IT Change Makers / The End of the "Job" as We Know It! What's that mean for DEX?? Phil Kirschner Is Back

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The End of the "Job" as We Know It! What's that mean for DEX?? Phil Kirschner Is Back · The DEX Show: A Show for IT Change Makers

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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was. I was lived in London in twenty
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: ten when the US and England were in the same
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: group and we were the last time.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, which was where we played each other one
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  Speaker 2: one and Pickford let the ball go like through his
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: legs or something.
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  Speaker 1: It was, Yeah, my favorite part of that whole game,
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  Speaker 1: even though I was in London. The New York Post
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  Speaker 1: paper front page headline the next day, what us.
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  Speaker 3: Wings one one?
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  Speaker 1: That's the mind?
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  Speaker 4: Hey it change makers and welcome to the Deck Show
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  Speaker 4: with Tom mc grath. Let's get into.
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  Speaker 2: It, Hi, change makers, Welcome back to the Deck Show.
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  Speaker 3: Look.
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  Speaker 2: I want to begin by thanking everybody who last week.
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  Speaker 3: Joined us for our first ever AMA on the New
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: Next Thing subreddit with show regular and favorite Jeffrey Right.
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  Speaker 1: It was.
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  Speaker 2: It was a lot of fun. We already enjoyed it,
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  Speaker 2: and jeff was just as ever, the perfect, the perfect get,
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  Speaker 2: the perfect interlocutor for so many people who pitched in,
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  Speaker 2: and actually the resulting conversation is sufficiently entertaining to be
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: worth a look in hindsight even if you weren't able
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  Speaker 2: to join life. So I'm going to put a put
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  Speaker 2: over and if you haven't heard of the subreddit, or
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  Speaker 2: We'd love to have you as a part of that community,
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: as we love to have you as a part of
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  Speaker 2: this community. And speaking of this community, it's always a
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  Speaker 2: pleasure to welcome a guest back. I'm pretty sure this
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: gentleman is here for the second time. I've got to
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  Speaker 2: write excellent, excellent philm me. He is Phil Kirshner, and
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: he's got Phil. I would describe, I would describe your
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: specialism and why we love to talk to you. You
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: have a phrase right, which is I think very American.
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  Speaker 2: It's like the intersection of h it and real estate.
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  Speaker 2: But you just mean you mean the real world. You
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  Speaker 2: mean the brick and mortar. You know, the workplace per se.
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  Speaker 1: Per se yes, the work place and all of its follies.
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  Speaker 2: But you go, as we know, as we're going to
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  Speaker 2: see you. Your foot goes beyond those confines as well.
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  Speaker 2: But you're founder of PK Consulting, and if there's a
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  Speaker 2: delighted to have you back, And if there's anything I
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  Speaker 2: haven't said that surely has been that surely is please
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: add to your introduction and introduce yourself.
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  Speaker 1: Oh thank you, yes, very nice to be back. It
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  Speaker 1: was almost two years ago now here when I had
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: just left McKinsey where it was my last like real role.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: So there I was sat between the real estate and
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  Speaker 1: people practices as an expert come by way of the
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  Speaker 1: workplace strategy world. So think a lot about the built environment.
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  Speaker 1: Even though I'm not an architect or designer. My background
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  Speaker 1: is actually in technology, which may be relevant of the
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  Speaker 1: AI parts of the conversation today. And maybe the other
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  Speaker 1: thing is what is different for me this time being
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  Speaker 1: an independent consultant versus the last time I did it
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  Speaker 1: before John McKinzie, after having left we work which was filed,
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  Speaker 1: is that I have a newsletter now called the Work Line,
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  Speaker 1: the tagline for which specifically is helping people lead across
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  Speaker 1: the lines with modern work because I think the answers
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  Speaker 1: to many of the questions today come in the margins
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  Speaker 1: in between our traditional silos like HR and I T
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  Speaker 1: and wherever the heck you put real estate or communications
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  Speaker 1: or everybody else.
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  Speaker 2: One hundred percent And yes you are you know uniquely
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  Speaker 2: exit your experience leads you uniquely suited to occupy this intersection, right,
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  Speaker 2: and if not recklessly candid about my ailies about it.
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  Speaker 3: So that's good.
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  Speaker 2: So, yeah, almost two years ago, and it's a little
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  Speaker 2: it's a little layer of and I thought, actually because
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  Speaker 2: I felt like when we last spoke it was still
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  Speaker 2: the aftermath of the paw pandemic. And I guess that's
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  Speaker 2: true to some degree in twenty twenty four, right, But
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  Speaker 2: looking back now at that at the twenty twenties, you know, per.
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  Speaker 3: Se again, you know, just just more broadly, what do
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  Speaker 3: you think we've got wrong and right?
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  Speaker 2: So far? Is decade in our reactions to events and
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  Speaker 2: our expectations of the consequences of those events which have
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  Speaker 2: defined the decades so far in terms of the work workplace?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, what did we get wrong and right?
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  Speaker 2: So?
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  Speaker 1: What did we get right? In terms I guess who
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  Speaker 1: the we is right? But if you if you generalize,
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  Speaker 1: I think one of the core things that people may
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  Speaker 1: have gotten wrong, especially in the early twenty twenty you know,
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  Speaker 1: still feeling the sting of COVID time was that hybrid
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  Speaker 1: and remote was the first and only ever definition of
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  Speaker 1: what future work is like. This is it, guys, We're
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  Speaker 1: here the big changes here, and maybe we're not paying
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  Speaker 1: attention prior to March With twenty twenty about the things
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  Speaker 1: that were being defined by the thought leaders and consultants
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  Speaker 1: out there as potential future of work challenges, one of
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  Speaker 1: which being automation and another one being let's just call
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  Speaker 1: it like more fluid workforces, contractors, gaid workers, consultants, all that.
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  Speaker 1: And one of those two is now very present in
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  Speaker 1: the form of automation and AI. The other one is
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  Speaker 1: lingering in the background and advancing slowly. But I guess
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  Speaker 1: that's the Maybe it was the one risk leaders who
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  Speaker 1: think this is the thing right now and there were
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  Speaker 1: no other things before. They might not be other things next.
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  Speaker 1: And when we finish this, when we're done dealing with
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  Speaker 1: the hybrid and remote thing, that we will move on
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  Speaker 1: and even if another thing comes our way later, we
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  Speaker 1: will not have to tackle or wrestle with that previous
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  Speaker 1: era of future what is future of work? So that's
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  Speaker 1: probably the biggest concern, that the all of these trends
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  Speaker 1: are not being taken together, and like clients that I
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  Speaker 1: talked to aren't trying to stitch the thread between them
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  Speaker 1: two realize what may become a continual like consumer orientation
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  Speaker 1: and lack of predictability for our work day to think
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  Speaker 1: a little more holistically about the experience that we have
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  Speaker 1: to create going forward.
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  Speaker 2: And you know, unembarrassed, have in part reached out to
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  Speaker 2: you because since we last spoke, you know, AI has
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  Speaker 2: entered the picture pretty pretty conclusively explosively, and you've written very,
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  Speaker 2: very brilliantly on its impact, as I say, in a
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  Speaker 2: broader sense than just what it means for the workplace,
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  Speaker 2: although that is a dimension of it, of its of
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  Speaker 2: its influence and impact. With fascinated to ask you about,
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  Speaker 2: So what changes have you already observed, not just in
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  Speaker 2: the technology itself, but in how organizations are consequently operating,
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  Speaker 2: how work itself is getting done, and how people are
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  Speaker 2: now planning, and how organizations are now planning for the
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  Speaker 2: future in that intersection that we described at the top
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  Speaker 2: of the convert.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, look, so AI or generative AI, I'll say specifically, right,
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  Speaker 1: AI is not new. This version of AI is new
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  Speaker 1: or new into the mass market anyway. Is similar to
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  Speaker 1: the last kind of wave of major change with hybrid
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  Speaker 1: and remote in that it is a resistible change. If
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  Speaker 1: you tell someone I want you to sit here or
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  Speaker 1: I want you to go there. Even if you say,
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  Speaker 1: if you don't do what I'd say, I'm going to
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  Speaker 1: fire you and you've got to do this and that,
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  Speaker 1: or you won't be promot like if you're the most
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  Speaker 1: tracconing about it, that still doesn't necessarily mean that the
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  Speaker 1: person's going to do it, or if they do, they
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  Speaker 1: might kind of phone in the effort. It's not the
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  Speaker 1: same as an organizational change like oh, we've married two
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  Speaker 1: departments now that were never together before. Some employee may
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  Speaker 1: not like the change, but they can't just sit on
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  Speaker 1: their hands and pretend it didn't happen, like congratulations, you
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  Speaker 1: work for Bob. Now, that's just that's done before you
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  Speaker 1: ever found out. But telling someone I want you to
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  Speaker 1: behave differently that you did yesterday or that you want
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  Speaker 1: to makes it a resistible change. So I see similar
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  Speaker 1: views in demandate And to kind of answer your question,
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  Speaker 1: there's a few ways that I think organizations are approaching
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  Speaker 1: AI transformation. One is, oh, no, everybody else is doing it,
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  Speaker 1: and we're in an economic moment where I'm being asked
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  Speaker 1: to do less or do more with less, so go go,
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  Speaker 1: go go go, Like I use AI, Please use AI.
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  Speaker 1: Please do it all the time, you'll have to do it.
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  Speaker 1: And not only does that create an environment where people
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  Speaker 1: who are not sort of trained properly and change management
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  Speaker 1: programs are not executed properly, who may explicitly or or
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  Speaker 1: just sort of passively resist the change and not do it,
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  Speaker 1: or do it at the bare minimum level. You get
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  Speaker 1: barely entergy. Maybe the employee gets a couple hours of
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  Speaker 1: their time back, but the organization does not benefit in
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  Speaker 1: any way. Then there's organizations that are leaning maybe on
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  Speaker 1: the far the other side, very very hard into the
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  Speaker 1: power of these technologies, much like they might have in
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  Speaker 1: past digital transformations. And uh, you know RPA kind of
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  Speaker 1: process automation shop for efficiency logic right, putting AI and
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  Speaker 1: spending lots of money with consultants and implementation specialists. At
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  Speaker 1: the at the business of the business end, we make widgets,
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  Speaker 1: so we are we're putting all the horse power that
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: we can into that widget making machine, which in truth,
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  Speaker 1: for a large organization, only a small percentage of the
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  Speaker 1: actual employees might interact with it on a day to
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  Speaker 1: day basis. And then they're ignoring the general knowledge worker set,
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  Speaker 1: you know, accounting and marketing and operations and everyone else
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  Speaker 1: who doesn't make the widgets that supports the company and
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  Speaker 1: can leave them out. Unfortunately, in terms of AI fluency, training, adoption,
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  Speaker 1: and the most interesting organizations maybe in the middle, are
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  Speaker 1: the ones who are recognizing this is not just an
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  Speaker 1: opportunity to help individual workers write more emails or write
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  Speaker 1: them faster, but a chance to tease a part and
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  Speaker 1: break and destroy every legacy assumption that we have about
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  Speaker 1: how the work has to happen. Because when allowed to
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: do what it can do these deenerative AI tools And
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: I love this phrasing I saw on a newsletter a
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: couple of days ago. It's like something like, it's like
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: hydrochloric acid for organizational boundaries. Yeah. Yeah, it's just bleeds
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: across right, the lines of people and processes that need
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: to make out like business outcomes. So if you lead
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: into it and you're willing to prioritize the redesign of work,
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  Speaker 1: give teams not only the training, but the change support
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: and embedded call it forward deployed engineers or whatever you want.
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: People who can understand and think in an unbiased way,
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  Speaker 1: how might this work be doable now in a way
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  Speaker 1: that was not doable yesterday? Given these tools with the
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: social scaffolding for the employees to go along on the ride,
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: because it's really hard to avoid all the news articles
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: about people being laid off supposedly because of AI, So
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: you're asking them to implement something that is fearful for
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: the security of their drought.
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  Speaker 2: At same time, let's come back to this in just
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  Speaker 2: a minute, Phil, very very interesting couple of things you've
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  Speaker 2: raised there, But let's think about the what we dead
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  Speaker 2: the top of a discussion workplace per se and its
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: impact on currents of like hybrid work. Do you think
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: ai jen AI reinforces the case for hybrid work, undermines it,
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: or fundamentally changes the conversation altogether. Is that another silo
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  Speaker 2: that's starting to disintegrate.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think two things. Maybe one the companies that
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: are having the most success I think with let's just
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: call it egentic or like AI assistant based augmented work,
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: not outbreak replacing people, but you know, all of us
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: having our little agent on our shoulder. The ones who
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: are having an easiest time at that are the ones who,
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: convenient Lady, also have the most not necessarily hybrid friendly
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: work practices, but remote friendly work practices, which has a
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: lot to do with documentation and asynchronous work and consistent
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: ways of working. Because if you and I are pretty
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: consistent with the kinds of channels that we use for
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: certain kinds of information or project tracking, and if a
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: company has a pretty good called handbook or playbook for
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: who is who and what is what and what's important
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: today and what we do and don't do, or registers
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: of major decisions that were made anything written down, which
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: is the hallmark of the most successful fully remote organizations.
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  Speaker 1: You layer AI on top of that and you get
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: real supercharged work because it knows where to look at,
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: knows what the decision, knows who does what, It knows
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: how to help. So companies that went hybrid but really
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: defined it as you don't have to be here all
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: the time. We would prefer if you were, but you
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: don't have to. Maybe we upgrade the office a little
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: bit to support that, but like rarely did the more
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: difficult work of making it easier for people to not
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: be together.
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: Ready, you have to explain my last one again, for it's.
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: Both things right. So if I if I'm a company
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: where we used to be in all the time and
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: which was never really all the time, but it was
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: most of the time. And now I've conceded to say,
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: not all of you wanted to be here all the time.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: Your commuter is really long, our office is okay, So
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: I will allow you to not be here some of
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: the time. It's a concession, and they are not also
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: saying I am going to make it easier for us
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: to do our work and for work to continue in
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: the company, to continue growing and being successful when we
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: are not. He I'm going to put in my effort
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: into making you want to be here and trying to
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: convince you that there are benefits of when you are here,
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: or make the office nicer when you are here. Yes,
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: I am not inclined to continue investing in the way
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: work happens completely independently of where you happen to be
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: at any moment.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, okay.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: And very few companies I think have taken that like
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: remote first stance, where they do the work on the
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: work and then you continue to think about the built
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: environment too. Right, so the work has come first because
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: the bar is very low for me to not go
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: in right now, whether kids, contractors, whatever. So that's how
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: they really related to sort of hybrid one, but then
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: two we were already saying like the office is better
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: when we are together, but many people were still coming
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: in to do individual work. And now these generative AI
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: tools are like further shipping away the things that felt
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: kind of together but were in truth very individually oriented,
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: and are really amplifying that, like we should be together
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: for things that are truly human, which means like hands
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: off keyboards. I want my agent in the background doing
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: the BAU work. I want to wake up to very
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: minimal pains and nudges that I have to do certain
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: things and push things along, and that you know, it's
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: going to raise the bar for what will make me
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: want to come to be with someone and therefore raise
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: the bar what that environment will be like to support
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: us when we're there.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: I sense a parallel between your concept of was it
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: resistible change as it's kind of and the way companies
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: have managed that issue of resistible change with regards to
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: style of work or place of work, with maybe the
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: approach to facilitating AI transformation in the organizations. You know,
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: what are those parallels, Where do they overlap and where
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: don't they.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm change is hard, and organizations are notoriously bad
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: at change management, like I've been forever McKinsey and change
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: the leadership sessions. There's a slide they can picture that
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: a colleague used to use about you know, close to
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: two thirds of changes fail to achieve their objectives. How
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: long has that statistic been true? And it's like decades basically,
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: So we haven't gotten any better at this. And that
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: was when we were thinking about change management in a
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: more traditional sense of go from point A to point B.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: Now it's more of a change mindset, like I need
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: you to be bulletproof to uncertainty and at all times
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: understanding the reason we are undertaking various changes and being
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: more truthful with people about the very definition of the
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: change that we're undertaking at the very least, is this
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: something that we've elected to do ourselves. Is this something
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: that we have to do because someone or something told
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: us that we have to do, or like if we
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: don't do it, there will be a problem. And in
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: particularly because of COVID, I think like all the masks
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: came off for executives right in deep pandemic time, Like
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: my grandma was not okay, your grandma is not okay.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: We're all human right now, and so employees saw what
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: actual authenticity and transparency looked like in many organizations, and
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: so when the masks went back on, and now it's like, oh, economically,
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: the power is very much with the employer. And you
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: say you're laying us off because of AI or you
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: say I have to come back to the office because
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: it's better for me, and a kind of you know,
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: the BS radar goes up very quickly. Really, that doesn't
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: that doesn't track with what I'm feeling. And you have
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: not given me any evidence to suggest that I should
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: behave a certain way because of a good reason. And
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: we we we sense the inauthenticity. There's lower trust in
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: organizations that you're seeing from organizations like Adeline with their
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: trust barometer every year, and that makes it harder to
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: define and establishment of the terms of the change before
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: you jump to what is normally defined as change mandement,
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: which is communications. And if you look still at most
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: change management roles that are posted to I see anyway
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: if very communication oriented, tell the employees what we want
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: to tell them and what we want them to be
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: happy about that we're doing, not spend more time upstream
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: on you know, pro actively identifying what might be resistance
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: issues being honest with the definition, establishing a clear north
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: star vision, building a coalition amongst leadership for their conviction
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: that change, and critically getting them to behave in a
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: way that models this new future. And just like with hybrid,
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: you tell me I have to come in, but the
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: boss doesn't or lives farther away, or you hired an
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: executive who's remote when you told us we don't do
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: remote anymore. It's the same feelings saying like you're telling
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: me I have to be using all these AI tools
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: all the time, and yet I keep going to these
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: meetings that feel like they're being run the old way
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: by people who aren't using these tools and have not
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: themselves change how they are working. So I resist.
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: So that the.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: Hybrid removes the old definition of place. AI removes the
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: old definition of styles.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and a job. It is really attacking what the
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: word job means. And that's scary for sure.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, unpack that and where the destination should be event
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: organizationally for people who work in places?
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: What what?
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: What? What do? What do future jobs look like if
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: the very notion of the job is under threat? And
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: why is it important to get there? How do we
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: get there soundly?
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: I wish I knew the answer to this one. I
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: my suspicion is it we're grinding towards greater clarity on
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: roles and greater focus on outcomes. This is what has
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: to be delivered, this is what I will pay you for.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: And it's the same. It sort of connects to like
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: skills based hiring. Instead of oh, you went to Harvard, awesome,
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: Now you're seeing more and more companies being like less
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: concern that you went to Harvard and more like can
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: you do this and this and this? And the A
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: tools themselves may make it easier to assess people for
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: particular skills in the moment. I suspect we will also
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: see a greater kind of dissolution of the team in
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: hierarchy structure internally, and more likely that employees will be
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: gigging around kind of project to project to project and
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: seeing sort of two kinds of roles emerge. One either
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: people who are contributing to the effort, like and maybe
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: many more of them, like flatter structures and dynamic teams.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: And now we got a contractor here and a person here,
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: and sometimes we go in and sometimes we don't. We
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: got a bunch of agents that have been spun up
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: to help us, and that's cool, and then one person
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: who is taking the accountability for the outcome. It's the
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: you know, the Hollywood model a little bit. Some people say, right,
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: like a bunch of people get together, we're gonna make
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: a movie. Someone's the s they get the bag of money,
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: or their job is to get the money, and their
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: job is to make more of it than they needed
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: to make the money moving the beginning, and then they go,
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: you know, they get one person who's good at casting,
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: and one person's going to make up, and like those
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: people go find other teams and they're largely contracted vendor. Right,
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: the whole thing comes together as a company for one
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: moment to make one thing and then poof gone. If
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: it worked well, like, you've got a higher chance of
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: coming back or benefiting financially from that. It didn't work, well,
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: you're gonna have a harder time finding someone who's gonna
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: want you to do that next thing, right, yeah, yeah,
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: which makes it more greater inequity. Right, people are really
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: good will make a ton of money, and people who
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: are not may struggle at least in like more traditional Roles.
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: The concept a few years ago was called the democratization
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: of work, right, and I guess it's the acceleration of
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: that trend.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah me. Also, like someone here in the US
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: or in the UK may moan like I'm I'm struggling
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: to find a role. But is it is it good
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: that someone in a country that may have struggled before,
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: but who's let's say, English is pretty good and technical
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: skills are pretty good and can compete in a global
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: scale and make their skills marketable and be visible on
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: tools like a GitHub, right, like external transparency like this
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: is me. Look, I contribute, I'm here. There's trust in
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: this system that they may win and someone else is
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: going to lose, and that's hard. Most of the complaints
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: come for the people who have had a pretty good
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: right when you say democratization.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, this brings us down to sort of the
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: implementation of organizational change.
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: I thought that's an excellent definition, by way.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: And one of the things that caught all right was
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: your recent article leaders can't break their own silos, and
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: you mentioned in this motion of zero based organizational imagination,
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: which looks even madden. Now I read my notes when
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: I read it, So maybe breakdown what that is. I mean,
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: that's that's like a core change management precept though, isn't it?
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: And what does it mean when it comes to to
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: AI transformation specific Yeah, so.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: I have for a while these as one that I've
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: been writing my newsletter anchoring on interesting organizational changes that
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: seem to blur boundaries and we get even at the
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: executive level. Maybe the first splashing one was when Maderna
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: merged HR and it together with all of this change base,
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: we're seeing a lot more of that kind of HR
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: and IT AI and HR transformation officers like being merged
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: because of the nature of the beast. And I've said, like,
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: it's difficult to break the silos, and had been thinking
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: more of the two and three four people down from
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: the executive maybe level, or really like hands on fighting
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: the battle for employee experience, and maybe it had been thinking, gosh,
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: this is really difficult the executive level. But it wasn't
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: until Deloite put out there in the twenty twenty six
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: Human Capital Trends Report, which covers a wide range of topics,
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: but had this a whole chapter dedicated to the fact
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: that the kind of the traditional was called corporate functions
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: hr IT operations, risk finance, where I should say real
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: estate is not called out or mentioned for reasons we
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: could maybe go into. But the GNA the shared services
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: functions like maybe do for a reboot, And it leaned
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: on a principle that I hadn't really heard invoked in
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: a long time since I was a practitioner CARDSWISS a
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: long time ago, which is this construct of running the
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: company and changing the company, run the business, change the business,
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: and saying maybe we're headed towards the world where a
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: lot of the keep the lights on stuff that is
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: functionally very similar across some of those organizations, like maybe
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: should be coming together in a different way and we
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: break out. Really the strategic change strategic finance is very
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: different than strategic it, but the running of finance and
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: the running of it, especially with more agentic support and
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: different staffing models like maybe more so much is musing
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: that this is perhaps the direction that we have to
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: challenge the actual silos. And it felt so real to
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: me in part because of the lines in there about
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: this is necessarily going to be hard because now the
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: person who's afraid of their job is not the not
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: marry and accounting. Who's being told, Oh, no, my spreadsheets
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: can be done by copilot now and I don't have
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: to do that. That's scary for me. But now it's
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: the maybe it's the CFO or the CHRO, like you're
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: telling me I should move twenty percent of my organization
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: out or more to someone else. What does that do
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: for me? 're seeing some executives in the case of
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: a Walmart and Coca Cola, I think recently both had
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: CEOs to are transitioning out invoking this moment we're not
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: necessarily the best person to lead through this speed and
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: complexity of AI power change. So maybe from the top
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: top you're seeing a little bit of people going, am
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: I the right person? And from the bottom worker's already
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: being afraid of like what does AI need for me?
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: But to challenge the silos means you need like N
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: minus one and minus two executive leader who's willing to go.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: Let's just pretend for a moment that my org didn't exist,
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: and we took all the component pieces, we put them
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: back together differently because of similarity and how they work
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: or how agents can support them, and then let's see
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: what's left and where do I have that role? And
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: that's really scary, more scary for that maybe because you
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: know lead, you're in your career, you're more successful, you know, financially,
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: and what does that mean to You're like, wait, you're
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: taking half of my responsibility away or you're suggesting that
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: half of them goes somewhere else, and what does that mean?
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: And how do you get them to feel okay about that?
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: So, you know, employee experience has been a big theme
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: of yours for a long time. Phil Right and ar
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: could believe a record of a lot, maybe of all
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: of your writings. So what is that what employee experience
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: becomes in this area of change? How do people come
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: to feel okay about everything that's happening to them?
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's a good yeah. I wouldn't know if that's
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: a playee experience or maybe just broader psychological safety, but
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: employee experience certainly, I think is due also for not
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: a reboot, but a revagination consistent with the sort of
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: greater accountability for projects and change. And I do think
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: the organizations will put more and more power to the
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: edge a little bit instead of the center over time,
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: or at least the ones that need to be moving,
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: quicker and more agile, more responsive, more iterative, which means
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: the divine run a group like I'm ultimately responsible for
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: my outcome. So in theory, or maybe I'm more accountable
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: and benefiting from the outcomes that I'm driving than I
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: ever was. So now me as a business unit leader,
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: project leader, I should in theory, be more attuned to
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: the choices that I am making about day to day actions, rhythms,
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: and journeys for the people in my kind of area,
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: and how those choices and experiences are affecting the outcome.
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: So it's a little less of cupcakes and confetti employee
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: experiences and more about trying to connect day to day
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: behaviors to real outcomes. If someone needs to work with
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: the mcginsee we call this applying like shop floor logic
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: the factory floor logic to knowledge work for the first
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: time because maybe it's possible because of the way we
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: can look at data signals. But to do that, I
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: think is going to require a centralization of the teams
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: and the people who are best positioned to measure and
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: advise on those choices around employee experiences, not necessarily to
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: own it, but to make it clearer in an unbiased
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: fashion to the people doing the work like what matters,
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: and that i'll stems from the fact that I often
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: see if employee experience is owned by let's say an
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: HR function and you ask them about the things that
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: influence the employee experience, nine times out of ten they
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: will not invoke anything technical or spatial. It's all HR
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: benefit policy, engagement, survey, leadership development, which is important, but
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: it is not the only thing that makes employees either
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: you know, their change their behavior to be better for
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: themselves in the business or like working there to begin with.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: So that's why I think pulling those things out, which
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: is a small example of the silo busting and getting
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: it out of the way the executives who are biased
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: to the outcome, will be better for groups that are
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: trying to understand the impact of the choices that they're making.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: And when we were last, when we had our last discussion,
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: that that the increasing gray area between the what you
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: just said, the technical and the spatial was that was
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: A main mainzation.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: We talk about we call the former digital employee experience here, right,
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: and what do you think the implications are for that concept?
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: As employees increasingly interact not only with apps and devices,
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: but with AI agents and assistance and yeah.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: Even more important. Right, We're just especially because the introduction
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: of assistance and like vibe coding tools is making it
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: even easier for employees to take a consumer orientation towards work. Oh,
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: I don't like that app anymore. And like you're saying, oh,
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: our portal for this, that and the other thing is
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: really great. I don't care. I don't want to go
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: to your portal. I want my personal copilot to go
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: get the information for me and help me. So I'm
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: expecting like extreme interoperability, an extreme sort of service mindset
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: to me in being able to stitch together the system
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: that I want, especially if you believe that more and
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: more employees will be well, let's just say not employees. Right,
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: they will show up as a gig worker or a
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: consultant contractor, which means like they have some degree of
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: agency over the tooling that they are using within policy
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: driven reason, right, they're bringing their own kit. They're being
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: measured on outcome, so like I want to use the
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: tools that I want, or even employees who are switching
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: roles full time role to full time role and I
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: think are going to be asking more and more questions
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: about a tech stack even than they were before, which
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: again is a check in the box for the fully
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: remote companies because they tend to be much more transparent
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: about those things and public kind of career and handbook
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: material like this is exactly our marketing tech stack. If
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: you're coming into marketing and if you don't like one
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: of the tools, like we're totally relying on HubSpot or something,
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: and you just you don't like Hubstock for whatever reason
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: you prefer the competitor, don't come here like you're gonna
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: have that experience from the jump. So we're gonna be
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: transparent about things that we allow and that we use.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean if you told me I was
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: taking a job tomorrow where I got there and they said,
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: like in my case, like no, we don't like Claude,
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: I'd have a fit immediately. So yeah, I think I
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: think we'll just people will lean more consumer oriented than
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: even before with the ways that they want to engage
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: with the environment, digital, digitally, their own.
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: Experience compelling, highly compelling.
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: Okay to conclude, phil right, if we accept that, you know,
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: employee experience is now cutting violently across h IT facilities, operations,
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: the business itself.
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: What does what should the operating model for employee experience
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: look like? Or another? What I mean to ask the
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: fact that is, who should who should own it? And
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: maybe the answer is.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: A question again of silos, you know, not not just
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: in who's being managed, but who's managing it.
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: You know, we've traditionally we had hr we had it.
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I you know, I tend to invoke the concept
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: of a chief of work or something like it a
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: lot of my writing, which is the version of that
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: independent function. And I am not precious about the name.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: I'm not even precious about where it reports. And I
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: certainly don't believe it necessarily has to be a c
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: suite function from day one. I also don't believe that
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: it is practical to aggregate the operational implementation of hr
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: T real estate everybody like in one place. They may
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: meet at some executive level Sunday, or maybe you believe
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: they're going to break apart to run the bank and
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: change the bank, or run the business change of business groups.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: But the I think organizations ze a little bit of
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: a human chief operating officer or more of a like
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: a Fitbit or fitness a fitness tracker for the organization.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: Right like I could look at my watch or my watch,
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: right'd say, oh, you you took so many steps, so
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: you did this, or you slept better you didn't, And
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: I sell the agency to choose what do I do
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: today based on what you're telling me happened yesterday? But
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: if I'm running a team and we're supposed to go
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: really fast, I want to be able to turn to
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: one source and maybe even through my little you know,
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: team copilot, just go hey, what am I not seeing
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: that could be helpful to us? And to be able
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: to have some central source with let's just call it
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: workplace strategy and change people, by which I mean more
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: like real estate types, digital collaboration or digital workplace strategy
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: and architecture types. Not just the one who's like running slack,
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: but the person who spends a good amount of time
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: thinking about how are the employees using slack right, what
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: are they going to it for, how are they behaving
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: in it? Are they making the most of the features,
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: What does that do to team dynamics, how does that
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: connect to meeting culture, ets other entire and the people
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: from the NHR side who think about people listening, engaged
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: in surveys and maybe benefits. Not all them. They all
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: think about work in a really human centered way, and
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: all probably want a level of data science or business
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: intelligence and user experience research and human center read. They
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: all want that. So if you put them into one
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: place and you just at least get them out of
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: those big core employee experience owning functions so that they
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: don't feel any fear to say, Oh, in this particular case, Bob,
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: for your team, your objectives, your dynamics, your composition, your everything,
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: it seems that the choices that you're making around let's
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: say the built environment where you go or how you
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: sit when you're there, is hurting you. And that doesn't
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: mean that for everyone else that judgment is true. It
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: means for you, your choices right now are working against
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: your objectives. So here's an unbiased view of some maybe
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: tweaks you can make. Or here's another group kind of
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: like you, looks and feels and smells a bit like
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: your team. They do something different, but composition wise you're similar,
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: and they're behaving in a different way. They're using co
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: pilot differently, they're thinking about space differently, they have more
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: or fewer meanings than you do, and they run them
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: this way. Here's a week and see. It's like we're
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: reading the tea leaves and they may have some lessons
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: that are useful for you. Here's some things that you
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: might try tomorrow and see if that helps. All right,
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: we can tell you did your heart rate go up?
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: Or that we can tell We don't own the outcome.
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: You own your outcome. We own the ability to connect
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: choices and journeys and moments and rhythms to your dependent outcome.
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: Amazing stuff.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: Phil Typically, you know nowadays you just say you don't
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: even send anyone anyway and they just got a.
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: Link to us. But you have a beautiful, a beautiful website.
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: Beautiful thank you, I mean by the home for my.
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: Picture.
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate that. For anybody else, it's it's walkthwork
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: line dot com that will get you to my newsletter
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: and everything else about me, but LinkedIn to I'm very
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: active there.
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: Is it's it's well worth checking out on the regular.
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: And we we we've loved having you back and we
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: hope to have you back again. I wonder if the
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: next two years will be as.
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: Tumultuous as the last two since we lost.
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: But I try, I mean, I try to be optimistic.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: I think it will be the change will be even faster.
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: But we can either pretend it's not happening and hold
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: on to the way things are, or just try to
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: get on with it and figure out how we adapt
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: to what's possible now and tackle the really difficult problems.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: Sound like I giving the choice of sitting here and
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: stewing or at least attempting to be optimistic about it.
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: I'd choose the latter, so I hope others do too.
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: I guess we'd better.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: I think we better.
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: Yes, that's it for this week's Deck Show. We'll be
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: back next week, and if you don't already, be sure
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: to follow the show so you don't miss an episode
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: until next time.