Latest / The Strength In Numbers Podcast / EP 53: Paul Hiepler | From March Madness to Life After Basketball

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EP 53: Paul Hiepler | From March Madness to Life After Basketball · The Strength In Numbers Podcast

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My goal during my college career was everyday I want to be
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exhausted regardless of if, you know, I was meeting a lot of
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reps, you know, in live play and practice or you know, I didn't
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get a lot of reps in the game. Whatever it was, I wanted to be
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exhausted, whether that's like encouraging adding to the energy
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of practice or whether that's going hard on scout team or
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doing extra reps, you know, in the weight room or getting shots
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up. I was going to be exhausted
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every day by the end of the day. I had always been a basketball
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player my whole life, but growing up I played everything.
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I played baseball, I played soccer, volleyball, I mean, you
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name it and, and, and I played it, which I think was excellent
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for not only my development when I was a kid, but you know, when
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you get older and when the ball stops bouncing on your, your
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regular sport, it's kind of cool to get back into those other
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sports and and be able to play them at, at, you know, a decent
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level to where you can adapt and you can go play with anyone.
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I think people take their sport so seriously, but high school is
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just so much fun. Like have fun.
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You know, I, I think there's something dangerous when people
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put so much pressure on them to, to play at the next level.
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It's, it's just crazy how weight training and someone who
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believes in you, even though you're not the star.
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I mean, Decker knew my freshman year.
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I, I was, you know, I saw the, the court I think in like 3
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games. He knew that, but at the same
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time he poured into me because he wanted, you know, me having
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wanting to been A Division One basketball player.
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He wanted to make that a reality.
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Welcome to the Strength in Numbers podcast.
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I'm your host John Bloom, and today's guest is Paul Heppler.
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Paul's a criminal prosecutor, Ventura, CA after wrapping up
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his college basketball career at Alban Christian.
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You may recognize him from his March Madness stardom as the
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Horns Down guy after AC U's big upset of Texas in the first
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round. This was a really fun talk
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where. Paul shares awesome insights
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into key parts of his development, including his multi
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sport background, high impact coaches and AU program he had,
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and the secret to his high vertical jump.
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Paul also reflects on both the good and bad he seen from
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coaches, why emphasizing strength and conditioning and
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weight gain more in high school would have helped his college
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transition, and how coaches can help prepare their athletes for
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the transition of when they're playing careers.
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And if you're getting value from these conversations, give the
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show a follow and leave a review.
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It helps us continue to reach and impact more coaches.
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Let's get into today's episode. Dude.
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It's awesome to have you on here today, man.
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It's it's an honor to get. To talk with AACU legend, a
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March Madness icon, and get a reminisce on the old ACU glory
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days a little bit. Man, I appreciate you being
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here. It's good to be here John.
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You're always awesome to work with that ACU and one of the
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best in the business. So it's good to be back man and
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and look back on some of the best times I think that we've
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ever had. Yeah, for sure, for sure.
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So for for people that don't know who you are, could you talk
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about your athletic career a little bit, kind of, you know,
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where you grew up, kind of where you started, you know, obviously
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going to play in ACU and then you know what you're doing now
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after right for Bill. No, you're, you know, I usually
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have coaches on here, United coach, you're doing other stuff,
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but really cool to kind of get perspectives from, from
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different people and and from an athlete perspective too.
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Yeah, so I was born and raised in Ventura County, California.
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Still here now post college and and post law school.
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But I had always been a basketball player in my whole
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life. But growing up I played
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everything. I played baseball, I played
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soccer, volleyball, I mean, you name it and, and, and I played
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it, which I think was excellent for not only my development when
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I was a kid, but you know, when you get older and everything
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and, and when the ball stops bouncing on your, your regular
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sport, it's kind of cool to get back into those other sports
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and, and be able to play them at, at, you know, a decent level
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to where you can adapt and you can go play with anyone.
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But. Yeah.
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I knew from the time I was, I was young that I wanted to play
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basketball. I was a huge NBA fan.
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I was a huge Boston Celtics fan. I loved watching Paul Pierce and
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I, I knew I, I just feel like that was the golden era of NBA
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the, the late 2000s, two, 1008, you know, all the way to like
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2012. I feel like that was like really
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like a golden era of, of basketball And I grew up in that
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and just seeing it. I was like, I, I really want to,
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to play basketball. Like I want that to be my sport.
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I, you know, I did the whole thing in in middle school, I
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still was playing a lot of sports, you know, basically
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specializing in basketball a lot.
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But still in the offseason, I would play, you know,
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volleyball, play flag football. And then when high school came,
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it kind of I kind of cut it down to two sports.
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So I was playing volleyball, I was playing basketball and I, I
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had kind of a weird high school career.
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It was, I was really underweight was I think a big thing.
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And because of that, when I was a junior and I was a senior, I
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had some pretty just weird injuries, like weird injuries
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happened like hip stuff, knee stuff.
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And I still had a good high school career, you know, good
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enough to go play at the next level at Division One school.
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But I mean, coming into ACUI was I was severely underweight and
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like almost dangerously so. I think I remember first day of
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of practice, I think I stepped on the scale and I was like 155.
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And I that year is weird because I was the only freshman coming
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in and we had one other freshman who was red shirting that year,
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Tobias. But I was the only one that was
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on the active roster. And I mean, I was just getting
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manhandled in in practice and because I was playing with a
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bunch of dudes who at minimum had, you know, one year of
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college strength training and I was coming in, you know, I had
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worked with, I've been working with Jared Wilson, who is on
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your podcast. I've been working with him for a
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very, very long time. But the thing was I had been
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coming off of back-to-back injuries.
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I was coming off of a ruptured appendix and then a really bad
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hip injury. And then I had to get some PRP
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done on my knees after my high school season.
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So it was like I had these like 3 back-to-back to back injuries
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to where, you know, I, I just, I had lost so much weight.
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So I think that was the, that was the biggest thing coming in
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was I remember coach Decker kind of took me aside that first day,
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even though I, I, I mean, I hardly played, you know, as a
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freshman. And he was basically like,
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you're going to be my, my biggest project.
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And I spent almost every waking moment with him when we were on
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road trips, he would sit with me and he would literally like get
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me everything to eat. And you'd be like, all right,
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you got to eat more. You got to eat more.
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Here you go, here you go. I would lift every game day for
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sure before the game. Sometimes we would do, you know,
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after game stuff. And my program that we had was
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like tailored towards me. And it was it was amazing.
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I mean, I think, I think by the end of my freshman year, I was
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at like 180, which was a good playing weight for me.
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I felt like, and then I think my, my final kind of goal weight
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was like 190. I think I got there by my
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sophomore year. But I mean, it's, it's just
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crazy how weight training and someone who believes in you,
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even though you're not the star. I mean, Decker knew my freshman
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year. I, I was, you know, I saw the,
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the court I think in like 3 games.
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He knew that. But at the same time, he poured
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into me because he wanted, you know, me having wanting to been
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a Division One basketball player.
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He wanted to make that a reality.
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That's awesome to kind of see that full breakdown from even
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stuff I didn't fully know from back in the early days.
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And you know, I want to talk about kind of your development
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even more so that middle school, high school, even even younger
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than that aspect starting out. And you mentioned the the multi
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sport aspect and how you think that helped you a lot.
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Like what other things, even from when you were a young kid,
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do you feel contributed to you positively being a better
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athlete, being a better basketball player?
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Yeah, the first thing is going to make you laugh, but I always
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tell people this, so I've always been able to jump high.
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I think I had my first dunk at the end of 8th grade.
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And then, I mean, all throughout high school I was able to dunk.
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And I, I attribute that my brother and I were homeschooled
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until 4th grade and we had a trampoline in the backyard.
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And literally, I mean, we would do our, you know, school stuff,
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which wouldn't take that long. And we'd go outside and we'd go
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on the trampoline. And I swear by it.
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I'm like, there was something about that, I don't know,
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isometric concentric movement or whatever that developed my
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jumping because it was like from the time I was really young, you
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know, even in, in, you know, 2nd, 3rd, 4th grade, I, you
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know, I'd be able to go jump over trash cans and stuff that
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like other kids wouldn't be able to do.
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And I don't know, I attribute it to that.
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But I mean, at the same time, my brother and I, you know, when we
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were young, we're in the home school, we'd be making up games.
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We would be, you know, outside playing basketball.
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I mean, we were just outside kids, you know, so I feel like
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for for footwork purposes, just like a whole myriad of things.
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I feel like that was that was huge in it just being outside
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and you know, not necessarily playing like an organized sport,
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just moving your body. I I feel like was huge for us.
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You know, I, I did play organized sports from the time I
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was, you know, I think I was three years old when I first
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started in organized basketball. I just saw a video my dad showed
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me of my brother and I were like on the same team when he was
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five. I was 3 and I was like, what
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were you guys doing? I mean, I look like a baby out
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there. I think they said they had to
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say I was like 5 to get into the league or something.
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I was like, no one's buying that.
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At the same time in middle school.
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It was before a, you had really, really taken over.
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When I was in high school, obviously a, you took over and
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you had to play a you or else you weren't going to play at the
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next level. But we had this thing in Ventura
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County. It was called like the V league,
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which was like travel ball, quote UN quote, but you would
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play teams for different people from the county.
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Let's, I'm from Camarillo, we would play, you know, kids from
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Thousand Oaks. So it was really, it was like a
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really cool thing where you got to play for your, your city,
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still play against the best people.
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But it wasn't like, you know, you were going to Vegas every
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weekend or Riverside every weekend and playing, you know,
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18 games. And at the same time, it was
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encouraged that you did other sports.
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And I mean, like I told you, John, you know, I played
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baseball, I played tennis, soccer.
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I mean, I'm, I played everything, which was
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incredible. And I remember in, in 8th grade,
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my parents, I was like, I'm not going to play flag football.
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Like, come on, just let me, let me train for basketball.
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And they're like, no, they're like, enjoy it.
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It's probably the last time you're going to be able to play,
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you know, something else other than basketball.
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So like, go out there, enjoy it. Had a great time.
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And I'm in a flag Football League now post post college.
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So I'm glad I played it because I have like the, I have the,
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the, the baseline for that. But the, the one thing I, I, I
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lacked really was strength training.
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I feel like my, my parents generation was a little bit
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afraid and shield away from, from Olympic lifting and, and,
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and that sort of thing. So my, my parents always kind of
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had an aversion towards it. And I'd rather had a
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weightlifting accident too. So they were kind of ultra
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cautious with me. So I don't think it was until I
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started working with Jared my sophomore year of high school
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that we really started with lifting weights and and we are
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pretty limited. We my dad didn't want us to load
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up to do anything really with a barbell much.
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But Jared still tailored like a really good program that despite
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me being injured. But looking back on it, I mean,
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having suffered a lot of injuries in high school, it was
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100% due to me being way underweight.
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I guarantee that. I mean, when I got to college,
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and I mean it's so much more rigorous in college.
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I mean, your, your schedule, everything about it, your
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schedule, you know, you have two hours of practice, 2 hours of
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weights, you're on the bus, you know, shoot arounds your
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individual workouts like it's, it's a ton.
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It's way more than you're doing in high school.
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But I never got injured. And I think that's that extra
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weight that I had even like knee stuff like tendonitis and all
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that I struggled with throughout high school that went away
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completely in college. I remember I showed up with a
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knee brace like my first day of college and Coach Decker's like,
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I am gonna get you out of that. And I had worn it like all
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throughout high school. And I was like, there's no way
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you're gonna Get Me Out of it. But I mean, specific things that
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he was doing, you know, like overcoming ISO movements, things
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like that. And and I mean, within a couple
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months, like I was wearing nothing on my knees at all.
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So yeah, that that's. Just at least the at least the
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knee brace added a couple pounds on that first weigh in for you
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though. Stuff some some lead into it or.
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Something OK, so you know the part you mentioned where it's
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like, OK, you got to high school and a you kind of takes over
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because you feel like, you know, you have to if you want to try
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and get recruited. Do you wish it was different?
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Like do you wish even through high school could stay more of
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that localized, you know, play for your your city and, you
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know, play local people and compete there versus like a you
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having to take over? Like, like, what's your
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perspective on that piece? I mean, 100% if I were in charge
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of and I, I just want to stay for the record, I played for an
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amazing AU team, coach Robert Eichhart.
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I, I wouldn't have been able to play Division One basketball had
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it not been for him. And for my, my BTI program.
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I just think it's, it's taken over so much.
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I wish it was more localized. Like in a perfect world, and you
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know, people may just be like, you know, what the heck are you
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even saying? But I loved getting to play for
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like my city in that kind of localized travel ball situation.
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I also feel like I was blessed to have a good AAU team.
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That's not the case for a lot of people that I saw.
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My AAU team was great because they focused on, they focused on
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your GPA. You had to have a high GPA to be
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on the team. And they focused on development.
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And there was only, I believe like 7 people per team, which
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was awesome because I mean, I would see AAU games move fast.
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I mean, when I was there, it was 40 minutes running clock, you
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know, 220 minute halves running clock, which goes quick.
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So having, you know, not a lot of Subs was great.
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But I would go to AU tournaments and I would see like 12 kids on
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a team well on like the bench. And I'm like, what are you guys
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doing? Like at that point you're just
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paying checks to just sit, like sit on the bench for, for a 20
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minute half running clock. I mean, so, so I had a great AAU
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experience. If everyone could run their
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program like Robert Icart did at BTI, you know, I, I would have
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no problem with it. I, I do have a problem with the,
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the structure of it. And it's, it's sad that things
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have just moved away from, from the local standpoint.
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But you know, then again, I'm, I'm in a, you know, bigger area
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of California. So I feel like, you know, we
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have a bigger pool, whereas, you know, if you're in a rural area
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or somewhere that's that's far away from the city, I feel like
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AU is great for you because that way you're able to get, you
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know, some exposure. But I think it comes down to
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your AU coach, your program, what they're prioritizing and
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what they want from you. So my, my, my BTI program, it
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was the program that I played for in California.
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A really cool thing that I love seeing is on their website, they
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have, you know, they have all the players throughout the years
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who have made it to the NBA, but they also have, you know, how
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many doctors they have, how many lawyers they have.
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That's how many people work for S&P 500 companies.
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Like I, I feel like if you see that on your program, like
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that's where you want to go because they're not just focused
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on you as a player, they're focused on where you're going to
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get to in life eventually. And I mean, on my first visit to
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ACU, Coach Eichhart came with me, you know, and I wasn't a top
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100 recruiter or anything, but he flew all the way, you know,
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to Texas from California to be with me there to meet with
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coaches. That's awesome.
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And it was great. So find, find a coach like that,
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you know, I mean, AAU is not going anywhere despite
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everything that Paul Heppler says.
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But find find a program that not only cares about your
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development as a player, but you know as a as a person after the
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ball bounces, stops bouncing. Yeah.
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And you mentioned that piece also where there came a point
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where you wanted to just focus on basketball training, but your
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parents pushed you. OK, We're still going to, you
16:50
know, we're still going to play flag football.
16:51
We're still going to do these other things.
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If there's, you know, some athletes kind of thing about
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those same decisions where, you know, especially now social
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media, they see everybody doing, you know, they're just locked
17:01
into their skills training with basketball or just playing year
17:03
round doing all these things and like, hey, you know, they're
17:06
feeling a dry. I just want to go on a
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basketball. Like what would you say to them
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about the value of still maybe making a different decision and
17:12
having more things in there, you know, athletic schedule and
17:16
athletic repertoire there where it's not just basketball, but
17:20
obviously there is there's a lot of pressure from both the
17:23
parents and the athletes side to go all in or else there's this
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fear of like getting left behind because everybody else is going
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all in. And now like, I'm there's going
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to be too big a gap. Like I guess you know, what are
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you, what are your thoughts and and maybe advice for that?
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Yeah, I mean, I at some point you do have to specialize.
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You know, I mean, I'm not, I wasn't Bo Jackson.
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I couldn't, you know, play Division One level of multiple
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sports. So at some point you do have to
17:49
specialize. I think the key is knowing when.
17:52
So it it kind of makes me, you know, it drives me nuts when I
17:55
see, you know, kids that are, you know, 789 and they're
18:00
playing all year round baseball or all year round basketball and
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you're just like like 1. I feel like your kids going to
18:07
be burnt out by the time you get to high school and especially
18:11
in, in baseball with issues like Tommy John and everything, you
18:13
know, there's just that many more miles on your body.
18:16
Same thing with things like basketball.
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I think it's good to, especially when you're younger, give your
18:21
body a break because I, I was thinking, I just read some
18:24
statistic about basketball game, but it's like, I think you're
18:27
leave the ground like over 50 times, like in a basketball
18:31
game, like that's a ton of pounding, you know, on your
18:34
knees. So I think it's good to give
18:36
your body a break from those, you know, ballistic movements
18:40
and, you know, do something else, you know, in the
18:42
offseason. And I just think it makes you
18:44
more well-rounded as an athlete. You know, I, I did volleyball
18:47
too. And, and I feel like volleyball
18:49
really helped me with, you know, 2 feet jumping, which was big in
18:53
basketball. You know, So to answer that
18:56
question, it's it's a tough one. Also at the same time, I think
18:59
people take their sport so seriously, but high school is
19:03
just so much fun, Like have fun. You know, I, I think there's
19:07
something dangerous when people are like put so many, so much
19:10
pressure on them to, to play at the next level.
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Like, if you want to play at the next level and you have that
19:15
desire, you're going to be able to play there.
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Don't. And I remember I struggled with
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it in high school. I would put so much pressure.
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I'd be angry after games, you know, if things didn't go right.
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And then I was speaking with one of my physical therapy doctor's
19:29
son who played at Villanova. Play baseball.
19:32
He was like an incredible athlete.
19:34
And he was like, my only advice to you is just he was like, have
19:37
fun. He's like, don't ever let a game
19:39
ruin your day. He's like, you're in high
19:41
school, you know, so many people would wish they're in high
19:43
school again. He's like, enjoy it, enjoy your
19:46
body's healthy. Go out there, play different
19:48
things and and just have fun. Don't don't let a bad game or
19:52
anything like get you down. It's simple advice, but I mean,
19:55
I think it goes into this question, you know, and you
19:58
know, the same thing, like if you don't like anything, like
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I'm not going to force you to go.
20:02
Do you know competitive swimming?
20:05
But I do think there is is a lot of beneficial things to training
20:10
other sports that work different muscles, not only that, that
20:13
work different synapses in your brain, you know, getting those
20:16
different movements down. I mean, the movements you're
20:18
doing in, in tennis are way different than you're doing in
20:21
basketball. But some of the movements in
20:23
tennis can help make you a better basketball player with
20:26
your defensive side, things like that.
20:27
And they work different synapses in your brain.
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So I don't know, I, I'm big on that.
20:31
That was also a big thing that I learned later in college.
20:34
I was training with, with a, a guy named Blair who was the
20:39
Washington Wizards strength and training coach.
20:43
And one of the really cool things that he was doing before
20:46
we started our strength training was he would do this like mental
20:50
thing where he would like press on my, my leg and see how I
20:53
reacted. And it was like a, it was a
20:55
weird warm up. It would, it would be like a
20:59
from different angles. He's like, all right, react
21:01
right when I, when I hit it and he'd he'd, you know, push my
21:04
leg, I'd react and he'd go, OK, we're a little slow there.
21:07
And then eventually it would get there to where it's like
21:09
instantaneous. And it was the mental warm up.
21:12
And you, I mean, I know John, you're familiar with RPR, you
21:17
know, things like that, that, that warm up your brain and work
21:21
your, your synapses. I think is, is huge.
21:24
And, and I think that's a big thing of what what other sports
21:27
does as well for you. And I love that.
21:29
And, and you know the piece, like when you're talking to that
21:32
one guy at Villanova, like I, I feel like I've seen so many,
21:36
like when I was in the still in the college, there's so many
21:38
athletes that that whole high school career was about getting
21:43
to the next level. And that's where their mind was.
21:46
And it didn't allow them to be present in those four years.
21:49
And then in like you're saying some of the, some of the best
21:52
and most fun years that you can have playing sports with the
21:55
people you grew up with. And then they, they finally get
21:57
to that next level and like, they don't enjoy it, they don't
22:02
like it. And like, they're kind of burnt
22:03
out from their sport. And it's like so many people
22:05
miss some of the best years of their, you know, potential
22:09
sporting career trying to get to somewhere that they may or may
22:12
not get to, They may or not love when they get to.
22:14
So it's like, and I think you're going to get farther if you you
22:17
are really present and then loving what you're doing and and
22:20
not having your identity based in the results of it during that
22:23
high school career too. Yeah, and I mean, just like
22:26
you're saying, like, you know, I played volleyball in high school
22:29
and I, you know, in Southern California, it's it, you know,
22:33
people enjoy it and everything. And I remember volleyball was
22:35
always after basketball season. And I still remember my freshman
22:38
year going to play in in CIF finals, you know, down in
22:42
Redondo Beach and there being a packed gym and just having that
22:45
environment for something other than basketball was super cool.
22:48
And I still remember it today. So like you said, like if if you
22:51
don't do that, you're going to miss out on a lot of really
22:53
good, not just training and and cross training, but just
22:57
memories, just really good memories that you can look back.
23:00
For sure, for sure. Let's talk coaching something
23:03
you've mentioned some really impactful coaches for you, but I
23:05
want I want to hear from you like what do you feel some
23:09
coaches get wrong or even that you've seen from some coaches
23:12
you had or even just like other coaches that other people have
23:15
had, like things that you feel they get wrong about how they
23:19
approach their coaching role. Man, that's a really good
23:23
question. The good thing is I haven't
23:25
really dealt with that much in my life.
23:27
I've been at every single level. I've been lucky to have coaches
23:32
that I feel like genuinely care about you.
23:34
I, I think being present in your athletes lives is huge, Not
23:39
just, you know, seeing them as a basketball player, but you know,
23:43
I, I saw certain coaches, you know, we were playing, you know,
23:46
in college on other teams who I can tell, you know, and I heard
23:50
from other, other athletes, they're like, you know, they,
23:52
they don't even know like anything about their family,
23:55
anything about where they're from or anything like that.
23:57
They, you know, they just see them as a jersey.
23:59
So, and, and like I said, you know, Jared and I are still
24:02
close. I mean, you know, we started
24:04
working out together a long time ago and we're so close.
24:08
I'm so close with, you know, coach Decker, you know, I just
24:11
texted him a couple days ago and he still gives me, you know,
24:15
fitness tips and, and lifting tips and things like that.
24:18
So that's, that's like the real relationship.
24:20
I feel like a lot of coaches miss out on that.
24:22
And I get it. Coaching is, is kind of a
24:26
nomadic business. You know, you're, you can be
24:29
somewhere one year and you know, completely gone the next.
24:33
And you know, that's kind of the regular course of business for
24:35
it. So I, I get it.
24:36
But at the same time you create that tree, you know, so it's, it
24:40
why I was so lucky is, is I can go to so many different States
24:44
and know I have someone to meet up with there, You know, because
24:48
I know, you know, my coach at ACU, you know, is in Colorado
24:51
now he's in, you know, Texas, he's in, you know, Oregon,
24:55
wherever it is. I feel like you have, you know,
24:59
kind of like someone looking out for you, you know, if, if, if
25:02
you want to meet up with them. So I think in investing in
25:05
athletes outside of sport is, is huge.
25:08
And I feel like it makes them a better athlete too, because it
25:10
builds that trust. Like anything Coach Decker said
25:14
in college, it was like gospel truth to me because I knew he
25:18
knew me as a person and I knew, you know, he was the, he was the
25:21
one that knew, you know, my strength level, all these
25:24
different things better than anyone.
25:26
So I trusted him to like so much more.
25:29
And it was kind of like a drill Sergeant, like, you know,
25:33
whatever he says, I'm going to do.
25:35
If he's like, you know, you got to do 100 pushups right now, all
25:37
right, I'm going to do it. You know, if he's like, if you
25:40
got to wake up at 5:00 AM to get to the weight room, all right,
25:43
I'll do it. I'm not going to ask questions,
25:45
you know, And from what I've seen from other college programs
25:48
that that's not the normal, you know, strength coaches have to
25:51
force guys in the gym, have to force them, you know, to, to do
25:54
any, any sort of thing extra. And I feel like that's just
25:57
because there's no trust there and there's no respect there.
26:00
But luckily, again, John, I I didn't come up.
26:03
I didn't have that issue. My coaches, I felt like
26:05
genuinely cared about me. They still check in really
26:10
often. So I'm lucky I didn't have that.
26:13
But being present in your athletes lives as well And and
26:16
also, you know, on the the ball stops bouncing for everyone at
26:19
some point. And if you're also invested in
26:22
your athletes lives outside, I feel like it makes them feel
26:25
like, you know, they're still worth something once basketball
26:28
is over, Because I think that's the biggest struggle for so many
26:31
people is, you know, once you're you play that last game in your
26:34
senior year and it's not fun to talk about, You know, you've
26:36
been putting in, you know, decades of time with one sport
26:40
and then it's kind of over. So I feel like encouraging your
26:43
athletes to, you know, excel, whatever it is in the classroom
26:46
or with whatever else they're doing outside.
26:50
Yeah, no, that's really, really good, Paul.
26:52
So let's say you're you're going to make a career change
26:55
tomorrow. You're going to go become a
26:56
coach. What are, you know, you may have
26:59
talked about something. What are what are some of the
27:01
things you're going to steal from, from coaches you've had
27:04
that you think will really help you be a coach?
27:06
And then what are some things maybe you've seen?
27:08
It doesn't have to be like bad things I say, but like, you know
27:11
that you're like, hey, like that's, that's something I'm not
27:13
going to take from from coaches when I when I become a coach
27:15
right now. Yeah.
27:18
My hat's off to every coach nowaday with the the NIL stuff.
27:21
I think it's just an it's absolutely crazy right now to be
27:25
a coach with not only that, but with the transfer portal.
27:28
I mean, overnight college basketball changed.
27:30
I was the last year where, you know, there was still the old
27:33
school transfer transfer portal and there was no NIL.
27:37
So I feel like the biggest thing with coaches now is how do you
27:41
get, you know, all of these players to care about winning a
27:46
game when they're making hundreds of $1000 sometimes?
27:52
So I think getting a bunch of guys who that's not the focus
27:57
and that's hard. And that may be honestly
27:59
impossible nowadays. But I still, I still remember
28:01
when, when we were playing, you know, my senior year, you know,
28:05
when we went to March Madness and all that, we like everyone
28:08
was locked into what their role was on the team.
28:11
And I feel like that's important.
28:12
No, I, I feel like there were, people weren't trying to, you
28:16
know, go outside of that. People genuinely just wanted to
28:19
win games and we bought into whatever our roles were.
28:22
So just just trying to find, you know, 15 guys that, that are
28:26
able to do that. And I mean, I think it's next to
28:29
impossible now, but I, I think I would, I would obviously want a
28:32
very positive locker room environment, an environment
28:37
where I'm involved with, with, you know, my players and I get
28:40
there has to be kind of a separation because you're the
28:42
coach, But, you know, a program built on respect too, is a big
28:46
thing. I feel like when people respect
28:47
the head coach, you know, respect other coaches on the
28:49
team, whatever their role is, that's when success happens.
28:52
And I feel like there's a big lack of that now.
28:55
And from some of my coaches that I've heard, you know, throughout
28:59
the years that are at different schools that are doing, you
29:01
know, different things, I've heard that it, it's hard to get
29:04
guys into the weight room. It's hard to get guys to do
29:06
things extra and buy in to that program, but I promise, like if
29:11
you do buy into it, if you buy into your role, you're going to
29:14
have such a better time than than anything else than trying
29:17
to make something your role that's not and your team's going
29:19
to go far. And that's that's what you
29:21
remember. You remember of the
29:23
championships you win, you remember the upset wins.
29:25
You have, you know, that's that's the thing.
29:28
And I mean, still to this day, like still have people come up
29:31
to me and ask what was it like being in Texas?
29:33
And I'm in, I'm in a legal like it's, it's the most like UN
29:38
athletic attracting field. I feel like.
29:40
And there's still people that, that come up and will ask me
29:43
about that. You know, they don't ask about,
29:45
you know, how many points I averaged that year or how many
29:48
points I averaged throughout college.
29:50
It's always about the wins that you had in the championships you
29:52
won, having that sort of sort of that mentality.
29:55
You know, obviously if I was a, if I was a basketball coach, I
29:59
would, my focus would be on offense and shooting 3 pointers
30:02
because that's what I did. I wouldn't be as focused on
30:04
defense. Shout to Coach Tanner on that.
30:06
But yeah, but you know, being being a positive coach, but at
30:09
the same time being in someone who's demanding and and demands
30:13
greatness from their players at all levels in the classroom as
30:16
well. Yeah, I love it.
30:17
So you talked about like ACU team, everybody bind their roles
30:21
and you know, there's a bunch of guys that have been there 3-4
30:25
years playing within the same system, playing together that
30:28
like it's maybe near the pot. Like do you think that's still
30:30
gonna ever have like happen in mid major?
30:32
Now we're like a group's gonna be there for years and can and
30:34
binder those roles versus you know, I feel like now it's like,
30:37
you know, a guy has a really Goodyear in mid major, like
30:39
they're gonna be gone the next year.
30:40
Like do you think that can still happen?
30:42
I don't know, man. It's, it's tough.
30:44
And I think we're already starting to kind of see the
30:47
extinction of, you know, Cinderella mid major teams in
30:51
March Madness. I mean, this year, I think there
30:54
was one, I mean, we had high point the year before, you know,
30:57
first three years of of NIL, we had, you know, McNeese, it's
31:01
it's becoming rare. I mean, in our year, it was us,
31:04
it was Oral Roberts. There were, there were so many
31:06
small schools that won. And like you said, John, if you
31:09
have a guy that's legit at, you know, a school like ACU and he
31:14
can go to Ole Miss and, you know, make 180 grand, he's going
31:18
to do that, you know, because obviously you don't know how
31:21
much, how much money you're going to be able to make.
31:22
And, you know, even if he goes to old Miss and you know, he's
31:25
12th or 11th guy and he's able to make that money, he's going
31:28
to take that. So I mean, you have to have a
31:30
really special group to get over that hump, you know, because,
31:34
because smaller schools aren't going to be able to provide the,
31:37
the NIL that, you know, the SEC, the Big 12 schools, you know,
31:41
are able to do so. John, I'm, I'm an optimist, I'm
31:44
a chronic optimist, but it's, it's looking rough right now for
31:47
mid majors, which is unfortunate because I feel like that's the
31:50
best part of, of March Madness. I mean, some, some of the, the
31:54
smallest schools got their name, got their notoriety from, from
31:58
March Madness. You know, you have Gonzaga who
32:00
literally built their school and their basketball program from a
32:03
mid major conference. You know, you had schools like
32:06
for Florida Gulf Coast, Morehead State, Abilene Christian, St.
32:10
Peters, like all these schools that were able to go on runs,
32:13
literally we're able to change not just their basketball
32:15
program, but literally their entire school.
32:18
I mean, you look at Abilene Christian's skyline and it
32:21
changed after March Madness, you know, after two trips to to the
32:25
big dance. So finding that group that cares
32:28
that much about that too. And like you said, like at ACU
32:32
and my coach always said, you know, you win if you, you, you
32:36
win if you have old meaning, you have a chance to develop those
32:39
players and develop that system. So my senior year there was a
32:43
bunch of us that have been in that system for, for, you know,
32:46
like you said, 4, three, you know, even 2 years, having so
32:50
many people bought into, you know, our defense, because our
32:52
defense is, was the toughest thing to learn by far.
32:56
You know, and, and not every team can just go into, right
32:58
away into to jumping the, the lanes and everything like that.
33:01
But you know, at the same time, I believe we were the number one
33:04
defense in in the country after that.
33:05
But John, I, I hope I'm wrong. I just don't see it happening
33:09
right now with the transfer portal and with the nil money.
33:12
I just think the temptations too great just to pack your bags and
33:15
and go to a bigger school and collect your paycheck.
33:18
Yeah, OK. You know, as we talked about, we
33:20
mentioned roles earlier, what's your perspective on even even
33:25
players that aren't playing, how they can provide impact and
33:30
value to a program beyond just the on court production, right.
33:35
And, and I think I think you can, you know, you see people
33:38
sometimes go separate or different ways here.
33:40
Where can you not going to play? And you know, you're blaming the
33:44
coach, You're you're you're blaming all these things and you
33:47
kind of, you know, go into your own own little bubble and you're
33:51
not going to provide value. Kind of, you know, you just
33:53
you're going to do your own thing basically.
33:55
Or there's the person. I think you did a great job.
33:58
This was like, you are going to make everybody on the team
34:01
better. You make the program better.
34:03
And it's not always from stats, but but your value is really
34:07
important to the team. So like how as you think about
34:11
trying to be that person that can add value beyond just on the
34:15
court on how do you do that as an athlete?
34:18
And two, from the coaching side, do you think there's a way like
34:22
that they can draw that out of people or is that going to come
34:25
more so from the athlete making that decision to be that person?
34:29
Yeah. I mean, that's a great question.
34:30
And I mean, I think that's what I'm mainly known for from, from
34:34
being in college is, is that, and it, it takes being unselfish
34:40
and just kind of shutting out, you know, all the other noise,
34:43
you know, and, and I, I always think about in football, you
34:46
know, when, when Christian McKay for year or someone gets a
34:50
touchdown, who's the reason he got that?
34:52
Obviously he's very talented, but it's the guy who is
34:54
blocking. But no one recognizes that guy.
34:57
No one celebrates that guy. But at the same time, you
35:01
wouldn't be able to do it without him.
35:02
So my goal during my college career was every day I want to
35:06
be exhausted regardless of if, you know, I wasn't getting a lot
35:13
of reps, you know, in live play and practice or, you know, I
35:15
didn't get a lot of reps in the game, whatever it was, I wanted
35:19
to be exhausted, whether that's like encouraging, adding to the
35:22
energy of practice or whether that's going hard on scout team
35:26
or doing extra reps, you know, in the weight room or getting
35:29
shots up. I was going to be exhausted
35:31
every day by the end of the day. And I think I did a good job of
35:34
that, you know, but it's, it's hard because, you know, in, in
35:37
college, I, you know, I wanted to start, you know, I, I wanted
35:41
to be, you know, the guy that had the green light shooting,
35:44
you know, but that that wasn't the case.
35:46
So it, but at the same time, you know, I, I just, I believe in
35:51
energy so much in body language and everything like that.
35:54
If you're down, you know, even if you're not playing a lot, I
35:58
feel like you're going to bring the team down and you're not
36:01
going to have fun sitting over there pouting.
36:03
And you know, it's going to affect your team's ability to
36:06
win also. And it's it's, but it's the
36:10
hardest thing, man. It's hard.
36:11
That's why when you see someone in March Madness or when you're
36:15
just watching a college basketball game, they're on the
36:17
bench and they're up screaming, giving it their all, Like, take
36:21
your hat off for that person because that's someone who's
36:23
worked their whole life to be there.
36:25
And in my book, that's the most unselfish thing you can do is
36:28
care about your teammates and care about your team more than
36:31
yourself. And I was lucky that I had a lot
36:33
of teammates that that were the same way with me too, that had
36:36
the same role as me were there that weren't pouting.
36:40
And I mean, I like to think, you know, I helped that out being a
36:43
senior and and, you know, obviously there's freshmen,
36:45
there's sophomores that aren't getting a lot of minutes, But
36:48
everyone was bought into that same goal.
36:50
I mean, if you look at footage from college, everyone was
36:52
standing up every play that something could happen, that
36:56
there was, you know, charge taken, there was a dunk, there
36:59
was a three pointer. Like everyone was bought in.
37:01
And it's gonna make you play better when you get in there.
37:04
I mean, I would get in there and I felt like I was warm just cuz
37:08
you're always up, you're always excited.
37:10
So I didn't really feel that cold when I would get into the
37:14
game. Yeah.
37:15
And I mean, there's something about playing happy and playing
37:19
like with love for your team mates versus playing angry and
37:23
playing like, you know, I'm going to prove this, I'm going
37:26
to do this again. It it goes back to the pressure
37:28
that you put on yourself. You know, some people may feel
37:30
like they played better. I wasn't that.
37:31
And I would be absolutely horrible when I would be mad.
37:34
But, you know, it's hard, John, But it's, it's up to the coaches
37:38
to encourage that, you know, and giving every single person you
37:42
know a role in meeting with them.
37:44
I think communication is like a big thing with coaches telling
37:47
your players, you know, hey, this is what I'm expecting from
37:50
you. You know, it may not be what
37:51
they want to hear, but at the same time, I feel like it, it
37:55
gets a sort of a lot of ambiguity that that players may
37:58
have. They're like, wait, I'm supposed
38:00
to be a starter, but you know, I'm barely getting minutes.
38:02
I'm having a coach define the role really helps me really,
38:05
really help me as a player. And I feel like really helps
38:08
the, the morale and everything. But you, you again, you have to
38:11
find, you know, because if you look at college sports, there's
38:14
really man now it's like what, 8-8 guys really get the load of
38:18
the minutes, if that, you know, benches have gotten so short.
38:22
So, you know, that leaves so many people on the team, you
38:25
know that you need, you still need for, for practice, for
38:29
energy, for morale, you know, and to go in there.
38:32
But what if every single one of those says, screw that, I'm not
38:34
doing that. You know, your, your team is
38:35
going to be horrible and you're not going to win games.
38:37
You're not going to win games with you're not going win
38:39
championships with seven people. You have to have all 15,
38:42
especially if you're a mid major team, you know, and you don't
38:44
have, you know, round one NBA draft talent, literally all 15
38:49
people have to be bought in, you know, to that mission, to that
38:52
vision of winning championships. So I mean, that would be my
38:55
advice for coaches is, is encourage that, you know,
38:58
encourage them to block out the noise because you know, if
39:00
you're not playing, you know, people are making fun of you and
39:02
you know, oh, you know, you did a lot today in a great one
39:06
minute out there. Stuff like that.
39:08
It helps you block that, that type of negative, you know, talk
39:11
out and then then that person's not thinking about that as much.
39:14
Yeah, no, first, first, I love the the piece about trying to
39:17
exhaust yourself everyday. I think that's really cool.
39:19
And also, you know, the part where you talked about from the
39:21
coach's side of having that clarity and communication and
39:25
actually defining and communicating roles.
39:28
I think it's important because I think, you know, I've seen this
39:30
from both head coaches to Staffs and then entire Staffs to
39:35
players that there can be like, there can be an expectation when
39:38
you're going down that like, OK, they understand what their role
39:41
is or what I'm expecting of them.
39:43
But on the other end, that there's not that clarity there
39:46
and they're they're they're kind of left wondering or left
39:48
assuming something else. So I think having Phil Beckman,
39:53
you talk about high clarity equals high performance and high
39:55
accountability. It's like if it if you can have,
40:00
and sometimes they're going to have to be hard conversations
40:02
where maybe the person doesn't like what you're saying, but
40:06
establishing truth and establishing clarity on kind of
40:08
where they're at, what they need to do to maybe increase their
40:12
role. It, it doesn't leave the Gray
40:14
and it doesn't leave the frustration of like, oh, you
40:17
know, my coaches, you know, said this and, and now he's doing
40:20
this. Now there's now there's real
40:22
clarity and a real kind of path and objective of, of what you
40:25
need to do and, and what you need to do in your current role,
40:28
what you need to do to your next role, you know, So I think
40:30
that's really, really good. I think, I think the just kind
40:33
of final point on that, one of my biggest mentors is a guy
40:35
named Glenn Cicchini, who's the number one, the high school
40:37
baseball coach in the country at Barb High School in Louisiana.
40:41
He's one of my dad's best friends, just a great Christian
40:43
guy has helped me in my faith with Jesus Christ every single
40:46
day. But the biggest thing that he
40:48
helped me with my sports, he he told me control what you can
40:52
control. So he's like, you don't control
40:54
when the coach Subs you in. So don't worry about that.
40:57
You know, when it happens, it happens.
40:59
But the things outside, So why I loved doing like my personal
41:03
workouts outside of, of practice was, you know, I get to shoot
41:07
out however many shots I want, you know, in, in the weight
41:10
room, you know, I get to be as strong as I want.
41:13
I you know, that's the, the things that I really liked.
41:15
And that's what's going to make you better.
41:17
You know, if you have that mentality that, you know,
41:19
control, you can control. You know, you're not going to be
41:21
as mad in, in, you know, after the game when you're, you're
41:23
done playing. But at the same time, when you
41:25
go back to again, exhaust yourself, John, after the game,
41:29
you know, you're getting that, you know, aggression out, you're
41:31
doing your workout. That's where your mentality
41:33
goes. Control what you can control.
41:35
Yeah, I love it. You know, we we the the
41:38
transition from high school to college can be can be a big a
41:42
big transition for a lot of people.
41:43
You need talked about the increase in load and the college
41:47
level from the weight room to practice to individuals to film
41:50
to, to trap everything right along with moving to a new place
41:54
and everything that goes with fat and going from usually being
41:58
top player in your area to now going against 4.
42:01
You know, people that are four years older, been in the weight
42:04
room for multiple years and kind of moving down the totem pole a
42:07
little bit. What do you, what do you wish
42:09
you maybe knew during that transition that you know now
42:12
that would have helped you and, and how you know what can maybe
42:17
like people that are working with high school athletes,
42:19
whether it's their high school coaches or you know, people like
42:22
like Jared or myself, working with people that are making that
42:26
change and just to help prepare them with maybe what they need
42:30
to be ready for or, or need to know going into that.
42:33
Yeah, I I think the two biggest things and they're both off the
42:37
court things. I think nutrition and I think
42:40
weight room are the biggest things and getting, getting
42:45
those movements down before you get to college.
42:48
And I'm talking about the, you know, I, I think if you have a
42:50
good strength coach in college, you're going to be doing Olympic
42:53
stuff, you're going to be doing snatches, you're going to be
42:55
doing, you know, clean jerks, you're going to be doing trap
42:57
bars. I think those are the best forms
42:59
of lifting, not just for athleticism, but for aesthetics,
43:02
for for gaining weight, for gaining muscle, like all that
43:05
stuff. I think those lifts are the
43:07
best. And that's what I think the
43:08
majority of college programs does.
43:10
But going there, if you have a good idea of what those
43:14
movements are, if you've been doing them, if you've been
43:16
practicing, you know, snatches and cleans and all that stuff,
43:18
you're going to be able to cut back on a lot of that intro time
43:22
that you're going to have to have.
43:24
You know, I, I had to, you know, do snatches and cleans and stuff
43:28
without the ball, without weight on the bar for a while to get
43:30
those movements. So get familiar with those
43:33
movements with Olympic lifting and stuff and don't be afraid of
43:36
the weight room in high school. That's, that's my biggest thing.
43:38
But nutrition also, I, I was lucky, I, I had pretty good
43:42
nutrition and, and you know, my mom cooked, you know, every meal
43:45
for us. But you know, The thing is
43:48
you're in high school, man, for the overwhelming majority of
43:51
people, you can't overheat. I mean, especially if you're an
43:54
athlete. So just just eat, man.
43:56
That's, that's what's important to, to gain muscle, especially
43:59
with your metabolism, metabolism being high and especially with
44:03
you, you know, playing, playing sports all day.
44:05
But I mean that, that's, that's the main thing I can say, man.
44:08
It's not even stuff that's on the court because your, your
44:11
system's going to completely change by the time you get there
44:13
for, for on the court stuff, you know, whether you're in football
44:16
or, or basketball, whatever. But the thing that doesn't
44:18
change is is being able to sit there and take a charge from a
44:21
guy that's, you know, 225 or box out someone who's 225.
44:26
That's, that's the stuff that's going to be a constant and
44:29
that's built in the weight room. And you don't get there without
44:31
that. Yeah, no, that's great.
44:33
We we've touched on it a little bit.
44:36
But now kind of coming back to the, you know, you had to get,
44:39
you had to do a guest question for Jared's podcast.
44:42
And you asked about, you know, how for, for all the athletes
44:46
that aren't going to go play pro, like how, how do coaches
44:49
help prepare them for that transition and that moment in
44:52
their life? And we, we talked about a little
44:54
bit, but, but, but what are your thoughts on how coaches can
44:59
help, you know, prepare them for for when that moment does
45:02
happen? You know, even if you do play,
45:05
probably it's going to your life will, will change a lot when
45:07
that moment does happen, when something you've been doing for,
45:10
you know, years and years and years is now kind of gone.
45:13
So how do we help them for that? That what can be a pretty
45:16
difficult moment for some people.
45:18
It's, it's interesting, it's something that I've, you know,
45:21
still struggled with, you know, transitioning from college
45:25
sports where it's awesome. Your, your job is to literally
45:28
work out and look good and then moving into the real world where
45:32
you're paying taxes and, you know, you're going to work
45:35
sometimes, you know, at a desk and, and you're doing things
45:37
like that. So now I'm a, I'm a criminal
45:40
prosecutor in California. I love it.
45:42
I wouldn't want to do anything else.
45:43
And but there's still some foundations for that that were
45:47
built, you know, in basketball, But at the same time, it's not
45:50
the same. So it's not like, it's not like
45:53
I apply everything I did in basketball to my job.
45:55
I'd probably be a bad lawyer if if I did that.
45:57
But finding certain aspects of it, finding the, the
46:01
competitiveness where you need to, you know, to help you stay
46:04
at the office longer, but still, you know, you're, you're still a
46:08
family man. So, and I still want to work
46:10
out. I still want to be healthy for
46:11
my wife. I still want to, you know, be
46:13
able to dunk, But it's just some things like that.
46:16
But As for coaches encouraging it, I mean, I think it's built
46:19
into that statement. Encourage the things outside of
46:23
of playing. So I remember in college I had a
46:26
four point OGPA and my coaches were very supportive of me in
46:31
the classroom. And, and obviously they knew
46:36
that I wanted to go to law school whenever basketball was
46:38
over. And you know, they encouraged
46:40
that. They wrote me letters of
46:41
recommendation that they had to. I think coach Tanner, my my
46:45
coach at ACU wrote my State Bar recommendation for for
46:48
California, which is huge. So so being present again in
46:52
your athletes lives is huge and and encouraging that, not just
46:56
encouraging things that happen, you know, with basketball and
46:59
and breaking that news to him. And it's unfortunate, John, but
47:02
I mean, Michael Jordan stopped playing basketball.
47:04
But what what's Michael Jordan doing now?
47:06
He's killing it with NASCAR. He finds, you know, he finds
47:09
other things that that he does. Kobe was the same way.
47:12
You know, he was out there winning, winning Oscars with
47:15
with audiobooks or whatever he was doing.
47:17
You know, the best people find a way and I think, I think people,
47:21
people that get into trouble after playing sports, you know,
47:24
especially athletes are people that don't have those extra
47:27
skills built up. So it's it's a weird kind of
47:30
paradox, I feel like, but in college as an athlete, you're
47:34
super busy, but you're going to have a ton of ton of free time
47:37
Despite that. Find things to focus on that you
47:41
can see yourself doing post basketball.
47:44
So I was, I was really bought into to school my political
47:47
science degree because I knew I was, you know, at some point
47:51
going to be a lawyer. And that made that transition
47:53
easier. So being a coach, setting
47:55
expectations, you know, encouraging your players, if
47:57
they want to play pro, heck yeah, I encourage them all the
47:59
way there. But the ball stops balancing for
48:01
everyone, even Michael Jordan and even Kobe.
48:03
So making sure they have a good foundation for something else
48:07
outside of basketball, whether it's coaching, whether it's
48:09
being doctor, a lawyer, whatever it is, but just making sure that
48:12
they have some other sort of foundation built up.
48:15
Yeah, no, that's I think, I think that's great advice.
48:17
What last, last thing I got for you.
48:21
So how much you get a lot of hate from Texas fans still for
48:25
for being the Horns Down guy? I don't think as much as as
48:30
2021. Occasional, occasionally I'll
48:33
get the DM that just says screw you horns up or whatever, like
48:36
out of nowhere. Like it'll be a random like
48:39
September day, not even in college or anything.
48:43
But yeah, it's it's kind of sporadic now.
48:46
It wasn't as crazy as it was in in 2021, but that's probably for
48:50
good reason. Yeah.
48:52
Oh, man, I love it. You know, Paul, this has been
48:54
this has been super cool, super fun to to connect with you again
48:58
and, you know, talk about some old memories.
48:59
But but man, really cool to hear just your your story of, you
49:03
know, your your development and I think you just had some
49:06
awesome insights for both coaches, parents, athletes on
49:11
some, I think, really important thing.
49:13
So man, this is really cool. Absolutely, John.
49:15
It's always, it's always good to see you again and look back on
49:18
the great times that we had at ACU, some of the best times I've
49:21
ever had, Yeah. Man, well, man, I appreciate you
49:23
coming on. Look forward to seeing as you
49:26
continue to do. I know one day, one day we'll be
49:28
we'll be cheering you on as as President of the United States
49:31
like we used to talk about. But man, and I hope you have a
49:33
great weekend and then all things keep going well.
49:35
All right, brother. If you enjoyed this conversation
49:38
and want to go deeper, check out my book Strengthen Numbers,
49:41
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49:44
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