Latest / The Art of Costume Podcast / Live! Sketch to Screen: A Conversation with HBO and Max Originals’ Costume Designers

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Live! Sketch to Screen: A Conversation with HBO and Max Originals’ Costume Designers · The Art of Costume Podcast

0:06
Hello and welcome to the Art of Costume podcast.
0:09
I'm your host, Spencer Williams, and thank you so much for
0:12
joining me for an extra special live episode of the podcast.
0:17
Hey costume nerds, Happy Emmys season.
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As you all know, we've been sharing conversations with Emmy
0:24
nominated costume designers. And earlier this summer, I had
0:28
the incredible opportunity to partner with the HBO and Warner
0:33
Brothers Discovery teams to moderate a special panel titled
0:36
Sketch to screen a conversation with HBO and Max Originals
0:41
costume designers. Gosh, I really can't believe
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that this happened. But in this conversation, I
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interviewed 8 amazing designers, some of whom we've already met
0:49
on this podcast. And I just got to say, honestly,
0:52
as a journalist, this really was one of the highlights of my
0:56
career so far. And I am just eternally grateful
1:00
to the HBO team for making it all happen and trusting me with
1:03
this conversation. I enjoyed this experience so
1:06
much that I reached back out recently with the idea of
1:09
sharing the record panel with you, our podcast audience,
1:12
because usually these conversations are exclusive to
1:15
Academy and Guild members. But thanks to the support of our
1:18
friends and partners at HBO, we get to share it with you all
1:22
today. So after this short break,
1:25
whether you're watching on YouTube or listening on your
1:28
favorite podcast platform, I'm thrilled to bring you this live
1:32
conversation featuring costume designers Boyana Nikitovic from
1:36
Doom Prophecy, Kathleen Felix Hager from Hacks, Carolyn McCall
1:41
from House of the Dragon and Foley from The Last of Us, Susan
1:45
Lyle from Mountain Head, Helen Huang from The Penguin,
1:49
Christina Flannery from The Righteous Gemstones, and Alex
1:52
Beverd from The White Lotus. A huge, huge thank you to the
1:56
teams at HBO and Warner Brothers Discovery for making this event
1:59
possible and again, partnering with us to be able to share this
2:03
conversation with you all the audience.
2:06
Now, after a quick break, let's get to the conversation.
2:22
Hello, Good evening. Hey, everyone.
2:28
My name is Spencer Williams. I'm from The Art of Costume and
2:30
host of The Art of Costume podcast.
2:32
And thank you so much for being here for Sketch to screen a
2:34
conversation with HBO and Max costume designers.
2:39
Yeah. Now don't mind me as I read a
2:41
little poem that doesn't rhyme at all.
2:44
The costume design and storytelling go hand in hand.
2:47
Through costume, we understand power and vulnerability and
2:49
characters like Rainier Targaryen and Valia Harkinen.
2:53
It reveals lecturing class among the colorful guests of the White
2:56
Lotus, the tech Bros of Mountain Head, and a crime families of
2:59
Gotham City. It helps us track the passage of
3:02
time with characters like Joel and Ellie and The Last of Us.
3:06
If you're Deborah Vance. Costume signals everything from
3:09
a bad mood to a comeback. Or in the case of the Righteous
3:12
Gemstones, costume design can transport us back to biblical
3:15
times as Uncle Baby Billy stars and Teen Just a young adult
3:19
drama about Jesus as a teenager. Tonight, we're here to celebrate
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the achievements of eight incredible costume designers to
3:26
have helped bring these brilliant stories and characters
3:28
to life through their crafts. So without further ado, let's
3:32
introduce our panelists first up from The White Lotus, Alex
3:35
Bovard, Alex. Alex.
3:47
The Righteous Gemstones Christina Flannery from the
3:56
Penguin costume is like Helen Wong Ellen from Mountain Head.
4:05
Susan Lyle. From The Last of Us and Foley
4:19
from House of the Dragon, Caroline McCall, The House of
4:24
McCall, from Hacks, Kathleen Felix Hagar, and from Dune
4:36
Prophecy by Yana Nikitovic. Hey, Boyana.
4:49
All right, let's get into it. I'm so excited.
4:52
Thank you all for being here. So we're going to kind of just
4:55
go down the line here and talk about some of our favorite
4:57
shows. We into it.
4:59
So Boyana, let's talk about doing prophecy first.
5:02
Yeah. Yeah, Sorry I didn't make the
5:05
order. I'm a big DO nerd.
5:08
And if I know Mandy's like, yeah, here we go, Dune Prophecy
5:13
set 10,000 years before the story of Paula Tradies and a
5:16
future that still feels like a period drama.
5:19
So can you tell us about diving into the Dune universe and how
5:23
you approached researching and preparing to design costumes for
5:27
this world of rich world building and timeless historical
5:31
feel? Well, as you said, yeah, there
5:34
are many people that really knows a lot about June that are
5:37
big fans. And so of course I knew about
5:41
the Dunes, but I had to, when I got there, when I started
5:45
working on it, I really needed to dig completely into that
5:49
world. Of the many, many books right
5:53
now, not only the one that we all know, but, I mean, I
5:57
couldn't read all the books, but I read many of them, and I was
6:02
special. No one concentrating.
6:03
Nobody can. Yeah, I think because I was.
6:06
So anyway, I was thinking about those people, as you say, those
6:09
people who knows almost everything about the universe,
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and I didn't want to disappoint them.
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But on the other hand, we needed to create our own visual, you
6:19
know, identity and our own world.
6:23
So yes, I read a lot of books and then I started, I was
6:28
especially concentrated on these three that are really related to
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our story in the new Prophecy and and then started drawing
6:38
like, like this panel is from sketch to screen.
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And it's, it's a long process, as we all know, I'm sure.
6:45
And so many things happen in that process.
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Yeah, so we talk so much about how costume design helps our
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actors and actresses feel like their character.
6:56
And I think Doom Prophecy is such a great example of that,
7:00
especially when it comes to the Harkin and sisters, Valia and
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Tula. How did the costumes help these
7:06
actors shape their performances, particularly through elements
7:10
like the Benedgesret veils, where they we can't always see
7:13
their face, but they definitely feel like Mother Superior when
7:16
they're under that veil. Yeah, it was really important,
7:19
the whole sisterhood look, that was the main thing to create
7:23
the, the good look for the for the for the sisterhood.
7:26
It had to be simple, it had to be.
7:29
But in the same way very strong look, we had this dark colours
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and the palette of from grey to to to black.
7:40
And I really, I like to work on the details.
7:42
So we were really trying to get the texture with the special
7:46
embossing and printing that we did on, on this part.
7:50
So when the, when the actresses came for, for the first fitting,
7:53
when Emily and Olivia, for example, and the rest of them,
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the main thing that for me was that that they really liked it
8:01
and they felt comfortable in it. And still they, I remember Emily
8:05
putting the costumes, like putting her very, you know,
8:10
starting to walk and said, I know how I'm going to do it now.
8:13
So it's really, it's, it's, it's a nice thing to to hear from the
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from the actress. Nothing makes me feel like
8:20
Mother Superior than wearing 1 of Bayana's costumes.
8:24
Great. Well, let's move on to Hacks.
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Do we have any Little Debbie's in the audience tonight?
8:27
Yeah. Kathleen, in this fourth season
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of Hacks, we really see. Well, Deborah's chasing her
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dreams, right? But also with that, Deborah's
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feeling a lot of lows, too. Deborah's not exactly having the
8:42
perfect season. So can you tell us about
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conveying that journey for Deborah through costume?
8:50
Yeah, I just, you know, she's having a really hard time.
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Like she's she's got her dream, but now it's not exactly what
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she thought it was going to be. So she, Ava and Deborah this
9:01
season have this very contentious relationship.
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So, you know, just conveying the moods through the costumes,
9:10
through the colors, through the, you know, Deborah being
9:13
depressed and being in bed and her but yet she's depressed in
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silk and cashmere, so. She's.
9:22
But yeah, I mean, it's always nice when you would, the work
9:27
that we do can drive the story and tell, add a layer of
9:31
storytelling to what you know the actors are trying to convey.
9:35
And Ava, on the other hand, though, she becomes head writer,
9:38
which, you know, is kind of the goal for her.
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But with that comes a lot of maturity for Ava.
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Like, sure, she has a few mental breakdowns at work and like, a
9:46
little bit of blackmail, but that's like such a relatable
9:49
experience for us. So how did her clothing evolve
9:53
with this new role? We kind of see Ava mature a
9:55
little bit this season. Yeah, You know, when we first
9:58
met met Ava, she was in her early 20s.
10:00
Now she's in her late 20s. And I think when you make that
10:03
journey as a human being, you evolve and change.
10:05
So she's head writer now. She's making more money.
10:09
We changed the silhouette of her costumes, same sort of template
10:15
of like T-shirt, jeans, button down, but just different
10:18
fabrics, higher end designers. It was nice to see that
10:22
evolution. And I think we did subtle
10:25
changes like she started out season 1 in this very dainty
10:28
little gold jewelry. You know, she moved into this
10:31
kind of chunkier silver signet rings and she just small
10:35
changes. She ditched her leather
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backpack. She bought a Louis Vuitton tote,
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you know, so she's, she's, she's arrived.
10:42
There you go, Ava. Yeah, but still within her
10:44
though that goofiness because I love that pet detective comment
10:48
at the very end too. She's Ava's still Ava at them.
10:51
Sometimes she puts together things that you're like, that's
10:56
who she. Is Caroline McCall House of the
10:59
dragon? I love this series.
11:01
I'm a big Game of Thrones House of the dragon fan.
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Designing a fantasy series like House of Dragon is no small
11:08
task. Even though it's about, you
11:10
know, Dragons and a lot of this mythic stuff, there's still an
11:14
air of realism to it. So can you walk us through your
11:17
research process and what helps you get into the mindset of
11:20
Westeros when you came on to Season 2?
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A lot of research designing a fantasy show is it's just the
11:31
same really as a period show, but in that you have to, you
11:39
have to create boundaries and you have to create logic to why
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things are the way they are. And for us, the world itself is
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so real in terms of the production design.
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And so then that has to be reflected in the clothes that
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people are wearing. And that's the technology that
12:01
existed. And those technologies are, you
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know, very similar to the world really hasn't moved on in Game
12:09
of Thrones to where we are in the House of the Dragon.
12:12
So looking at, you know, the wonderful work that Michelle did
12:17
on Game of Thrones, what Jani did on the first series, and
12:20
then sort of plotting all all the things influence the various
12:26
areas of the world. You know, it's a Westeros is a
12:28
feudal system. So all the houses have a sort of
12:32
different ranking within, within Westeros in terms of their
12:37
wealth and their position and that all influences what they
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can afford and how they present themselves.
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And lots and lots of research into the medieval world, but
12:52
also ancient, ancient civilizations and, and to really
13:00
like embed myself into what, what's possible, what people
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could, could and would make and wear.
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And if if I had my way, you know, everything would be hand
13:12
stitched and, you know, it would be as it would have been.
13:15
But my main objective is that that it's clothes.
13:21
We're making a wardrobe of clothes for whatever the,
13:25
whoever the character is and that they feel that when they
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put on that clothing, they've become the character and that it
13:33
shouldn't feel like they're wearing a costume.
13:35
They've become Rainier or they've become demon.
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And, and that's, it's the same across the board.
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Every, every essay that's stressed, you have to take a
13:45
step back and you look and say, do they look like a real person
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in this real world or does it look like a costume?
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And if it looks like a costume, we've not done our job.
13:56
And Season 2 is really about setting the board for war,
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right? So the greens of King's Landing
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continue in their opulence. You know they're at war, but
14:04
they're still having a good time, while Rainier and her
14:07
followers on Dragonstone seem to adopt A more serious, minimalist
14:10
look. It's very grim on Dragonstone.
14:13
So how did you approach this contrast?
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Well, it was really great opportunity and coming on to
14:19
Series 2 that there's this natural, there's this natural
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divide between the greens and the blacks.
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And it felt what Danny had done in Series 1 was for Saris had
14:32
had this very comfortable reign. He'd been a he'd had lots of
14:39
peace and he had sort of assimilated, I felt, into the
14:43
Society of Westeros. And and so when Rainier leaves
14:50
good to go to Dragonstone and really claim her Targaryen
14:54
identity, it was the opportunity to like lean into that what is
14:58
the Targaryen identity? And then look back at maybe what
15:03
Daenerys was doing in Game of Thrones and to to claim her
15:10
identity as a Targaryen and what she thought a Targaryen was and
15:15
sort of show, show where some of those, some of the things she
15:20
wore may have come from in terms of textiles.
15:23
And you know, if you're in in King's Landing, the high towers,
15:28
they're influenced by their faith and the Faith of the seven
15:32
and the Targaryens, the dragon is almost their faith.
15:37
So in both you see the iconography of those things
15:43
within their clothes and and also the color is a massive,
15:49
massive part to play across the whole plus the board and
15:53
valerian steel in the Targaryen color palette.
15:56
All that, right? Lots to pick from.
16:00
Right, let's move to The Last of Us and Foley.
16:03
Who this show. I still haven't stopped crying.
16:07
I know. Same.
16:10
So this second season does a lot to show the passage of time
16:14
right? So within a story 5 years have
16:17
passed since events of season 1. Ellie was 14 in season 1 and now
16:22
she's 19. And Joel has just gone like full
16:25
dad mode at this point. You know he's the city planner
16:28
of Jackson. He's like a couple years from
16:30
retirement at this point of everything he's going through.
16:34
So how did you approach aging these characters so subtly
16:37
through costume, and what were some of the visual cues used to
16:39
reflect how much they've changed in those five years?
16:43
Well, with Ellie specifically, going from a 14 year old kid to
16:48
a 19 year old young woman, it was really about silhouette and
16:52
it was about color palette. You really get to see this in
16:56
Episode 6 when you flashback and we start the, you know, that
17:01
episode with Ellie turning 15 that morning and she's in a
17:04
baggier T-shirt. There's, you know, it's a
17:07
brighter color, there's pattern. And as Ellie progresses through
17:12
that episode, and you get to see her on each one of her birthdays
17:17
and eventually turning 19, you see the palette starts to get
17:20
darker. It gets bluer.
17:22
And I also made a conscious decision to keep her and Joel's
17:26
color palette very close to each other the closer we got to her
17:30
turning 19. And so throughout the season,
17:33
you know, they have a very similar color palette.
17:36
But also with Ellie, it was really about shifting that
17:40
silhouette, Hemming the T-shirts so that they're a little bit
17:44
shorter in the body. The jeans were a little bit
17:46
slimmer. The whole silhouette slimmed
17:49
down to show that she is becoming an adult.
17:52
And with Joel, I mean, with Joel, we Pedro and I actually
17:56
talked about this in his fitting about, hey, wouldn't it be great
18:00
if Joel started tucking in his shirts like Tommy?
18:04
You know, he's noticed that Tommy's a dad.
18:06
Tommy is the pillar of society. So let's have let's Joel's going
18:10
to tuck his shirts in. He's going to, you know, he's a
18:13
dad now and he's responsible member of the society.
18:16
So, and it's just a little touch like that that, you know,
18:20
changes the character a little bit.
18:22
Right. Let's talk about Jackson.
18:24
And this is the town in which Joel, Ellie, Tommy, many other
18:28
survivors live. And one thing I really
18:29
appreciated about the second season, just how grounded the
18:33
costumes felt, right? There's a real sense that these
18:35
survivors are repairing, reusing and taking care of their
18:38
clothing because this is a town that's functioning at with all
18:43
things considered. But then also in episode 2, that
18:46
world is thrown into chaos. And you and I were talking our
18:48
day and gave me some numbers, 579 total fittings for episode
18:52
two, 3800 garments through breakdown and 191 infected
18:58
costumes on screen. So.
19:01
Yeah, Episode 2 is quite a undertaking.
19:05
I think it was a 28 day shoot and I had three crews running,
19:10
one in Alberta in the mountains doing all that snow stuff that
19:14
was real. And then Jackson, so the attack
19:17
on Jackson. So it was all kind of happening
19:19
simultaneously at and then of course as a lot of you know
19:22
who've done television, especially on this panel, it's
19:25
like then you're prepping the next episode.
19:27
So then I'm building the Seraphytes at the same time.
19:30
So it was definitely a challenge, but thankfully I had
19:35
an incredible crew up in Vancouver and who helped, you
19:40
know, bring it to life because at a certain point we all become
19:43
sort of a, a project manager. Right.
19:47
And talk to me about the mindset of all the survivors in this
19:49
town and how they take care of their clothing.
19:52
Well, you know, Jackson is a functioning town.
19:55
They have power, they have water.
19:58
So Craig Mason and I had multiple conversations about.
20:04
We want to make sure that Jackson looks different than the
20:08
Q ZS that you saw in Season 1. So in Season 1, that was a
20:12
roadshow that Jill and Ellie on the road going from one QZ to
20:16
the next. And in those Q ZS, those were
20:19
not functioning societies. That was complete survival.
20:23
Jackson's kind of the opposite. And so the clothes are all
20:27
lovingly worn and taken care of. And we actually came up with
20:32
aging palette that we called the Jackson Patina.
20:36
So everything got aged and over dyed with this really warm tone
20:41
to it for Jackson. And you would see the difference
20:45
between the Jackson, the folks that lived in the town, and then
20:49
the refugees that would come into the town.
20:51
They were a lot more ragged and dirty from being on the road.
20:56
Yeah, we, we could talk about The Last of Us for days.
21:02
I think we were all in our rooms this weekend watching Mountain
21:05
Head, which Susan Liu designed a costumes for.
21:07
So glad it just came out just the other day.
21:09
We're all loving it. So, Susan, tech billionaires are
21:13
a very specific breed of person, totally different from the old
21:20
money type. So you know that we'd seen the
21:22
Gilded Age maybe. So how did you go about
21:24
capturing that distinction of costume design in Mountain Head?
21:30
Well, first I'd just like to say that mountain Head is so
21:34
different than the stories I'm hearing here because it's like 4
21:39
dudes in a ski house, OK. And the, and the schedule was 22
21:46
shooting days. That's it.
21:48
And you know, the every costume came fresh out of a box or fresh
21:53
out. Just it was very different than
21:56
than what you've heard so far. But to find the, you know, the
22:03
individuality of four tech billionaires.
22:07
The director Jesse Armstrong, who is known for writing
22:11
Succession, is no stranger to this world.
22:14
And he had a trove of research. And this is not visual research.
22:18
Those are podcasts and, you know, articles from The Atlantic
22:23
and this, you know, there's a lot of stuff and you don't
22:28
really choose a person and, and make a biopic of somebody.
22:32
They, all of these characters are really a pastiche of a bunch
22:36
of people. And there are a lot of
22:38
billionaires out there. And we've, if you watched any of
22:42
the inauguration, you could pick them all out and decide which
22:45
one, you know, a little bit of this, a dash of that and you
22:49
know, and you, you would create some, someone.
22:51
Honestly, it would sort of work like that.
22:53
And it happened very quickly and it had a, the, the parameters
22:59
were very specific, meaning it's four weeks long, they're coming
23:03
in, it's 36 hours in story time. And there were a few things he
23:08
asked for and very specifically. And then that was kind of it
23:13
just go. So it's just a very different
23:16
experience. I'm sure everybody here has done
23:19
something like that where, you know, a contemporary show that
23:22
happens at lightning speed. So the thing about this cast of
23:26
characters is even though they're billionaires, they're
23:28
not very loud, except maybe when they're on the mountain.
23:31
But when they're in, when they're in the home, you know,
23:34
there's just subtle choices that you made.
23:36
To release honestly, I you know, you, there are plenty of luxury
23:40
items, luxury labels that were interested in these guys, but
23:45
it's not what they're like. They're not, you know, they're
23:49
not, they're men who have accomplished something through
23:54
their business acumen and their, you know, their hard work.
24:00
They, they are not succession families.
24:02
They didn't, they're not that level.
24:04
They had to sort of get there. Certainly there would be some
24:07
privilege, I'm sure, but they had to get there.
24:10
So I feel like they never really show off their wealth in that in
24:17
their clothing, you know, they show it off in other ways.
24:20
Yeah, it's like when you're rich enough, you could just wear
24:22
sweatpants every day if you want to, which is goals.
24:24
So a lot of labels are common now, You know, like, who cares
24:28
about a Montclair? Really.
24:31
So, Alan, let's talk about the Penguin.
24:33
This is such a fun show. Oh, OK, there you go.
24:37
Yeah. Oz, AKA the Penguin, played by
24:42
Colin Farrell. He's a character that's deeply
24:45
concerned with being at the top. You know, he's very fascinated
24:50
by all these people of his youth that are gangsters that dress up
24:54
in their suits and very fascinated with masculinity.
24:57
So how did those identity ideas of identity and masculinity,
25:01
ambition and form your costume design for ounces?
25:04
I think we started out with Oz, the idea that where he grew up
25:10
in his environment, crime is a source for upward mobility where
25:17
institutions fail people of that community.
25:21
And so in a weird way, his masculinity has to do with a
25:26
bunch of things that are contradictory.
25:28
Like he views himself as a nurturer, someone who's capable
25:33
of bringing someone up, like he did with Victor.
25:36
But he's also views himself in terms that he is also capable of
25:42
extreme violence. And also there is this element
25:47
of Oz that is, like you said, a showman.
25:51
And so his obsession with sort of 1940s movies was a big cue
25:55
for us in terms of how to dress him.
25:58
And then on top of that, we think with the Falcones, he's a
26:03
bit odd duck for them because they're, we view them as crime,
26:09
institutionalized wealth. And he is a poser in many ways
26:14
trying to craft his ultimate image.
26:17
And so it's like, what does he think a man looks like?
26:20
And so we spent a lot of time, you know, tailoring his
26:24
silhouette to be more 70s, using very sharp and rigid materials,
26:31
dressing him darker and giving him a very firm V shape down to
26:38
his really pointy tote shoes. So yeah, it was.
26:44
His masculinity was definitely above everything that you would
26:49
not typically think of, such as like a provider for his mother,
26:55
you know, something that's kind but also a little bit odd, you
26:59
know, if you think in context of him being a villain in a Batman
27:02
universe. Stephanie definitely a little
27:05
showy with his purple car as well too.
27:07
Or Plum, I should say. Let's talk about Sophia Falcone,
27:10
who is probably my new favorite villain ever.
27:14
When we meet her, she's fresh out of Arkham Asylum, so she's
27:17
very kind of buttoned up and you get this idea that she's still
27:21
kind of in prison when she gets out of this asylum.
27:24
But as the show kind of carries on, you start to introduce all
27:27
these Reds and these different silhouettes, and you could just
27:31
feel the rage on her as we progress through the story.
27:34
So can you walk us through this evolution and how use costume to
27:37
reflect her growing dominance? Well, with Sophia, it was a hard
27:43
task because they did want her to feel buttoned up.
27:47
I didn't want her to feel like, you know, traditional kind of
27:50
mob wife type of look. And we were thinking about how
27:54
can you make a more button up silhouette a little bit
27:59
rebellious. And so I was very inspired by
28:02
the 1960s where the micro mini was coming in.
28:06
And so it was like shifts where it became this formless thing.
28:10
But because a skirt and the hemline was so short, it's like
28:14
rebellious in femininity, rebellious in womanhood.
28:20
And then there was another set of photographs in Vogue of Kate
28:24
Moss by Peter Lindenberg where it was 90s doing 1960s.
28:29
And it did have this casual kind of also rebellious form.
28:34
And so we thought it was very good for Kristen, our actress,
28:37
to start her off in that. So it's buttoned up but has a A
28:43
twist and a power to it that combats the Falcone's
28:47
masculinity and definitely Oz's masculinity as well.
28:51
As the series progresses, we really decided that, you know,
28:55
like you said, we would change her texture.
28:57
We would try to make her physically bigger.
29:00
So there was a lot of really big coats.
29:02
There were big pops of color throughout, but we did want the
29:06
whole piece to feel like she did reach into the same closet.
29:12
Nothing irks me more when it's like she feels better and so she
29:16
buys new clothes. That's like definitely not my
29:19
view of females. And so it's just she's putting
29:22
things together in a very liberated and deliberate way to
29:26
show off her new taking up of space.
29:30
And for that, we source a lot of vintage whenever we can just so
29:34
she feels timeless. My AC DS here, he, he got kicked
29:39
off the real, real far fetch. I think every website that this
29:44
sells vintage and he's right there and then gotten a new
29:51
e-mail name so we could go back on it and do another round of
29:54
it. And so, yeah, I'm very happy
29:57
that she resonates with so many people.
30:00
Yeah, yeah, I hope free Sofia Falcone.
30:03
I hope we see her in the future. Christina Flannery is so good to
30:08
see you. I feel like we talk every single
30:10
day and this is our first time. So it's so funny to me because I
30:14
feel like I've cried the most over the Righteous Gemstones
30:17
this year, which is crazy because Anne Foley's right
30:19
there. So Christina, this final season
30:24
of Righteous Gemstones, you tackled a wide range of time
30:27
periods from the Civil War era to early 2000s with the Jimmy
30:31
Neutron shirt, jetpacks, boats, Angel wings, a full on biblical
30:37
musical. And at times you're working on
30:40
some of these things at the same time.
30:43
So how did you approach design such a wide range of styles and
30:46
time periods all within one season?
30:49
Well, I feel like it was a fever dream.
30:53
I feel like we were doing a lot of the, the shoot, basically we
30:58
start with Season 3 was nine months.
31:01
This time we came around, we had to do it in six months.
31:03
So when you, when I got the scripts, I was told initially,
31:07
you know, it's going to be really like a lot easier.
31:10
We're going to focus on characters, You know, we're not
31:13
going to like blow anything out of the water.
31:15
And then I got the first script and it was a Civil War episode
31:17
and I was like, holy shit. Great.
31:20
OK, so thank you, Danny. So we did a Civil War feature
31:27
film alongside of doing the telethon episode.
31:31
And then just like, as we were all saying, like you have to
31:33
work on so many other episodes, block shooting things you have
31:36
to do. It's absolutely impossible to do
31:39
any of the stuff without your crew.
31:41
You have to have a crew that loves and cares about each and
31:45
every character. Costumes and literally can stay
31:49
up all hours of the night answering emails.
31:51
We work, you know, we're on call, we work 24 hours a day.
31:55
So yeah, I think pulling this off was one hell of a job.
32:02
It just wasn't possible without my crew.
32:03
And I think that's really what you have to have.
32:05
You have to have a kick ass crew.
32:07
And I absolutely did. So that's how I did it.
32:10
Shout out to all the crews out there making all this happen.
32:14
It's also pride bumps. I think it's only fitting that
32:16
we talked about one of the costumes that's out right
32:19
outside these doors. There's a gorgeous outfit from
32:22
Kelvin and Keith's wedding. Sorry, spoiler alerts for those
32:25
people that haven't seen Sorry. And also we get to see Kelvin
32:32
and Keith set up the Prism, which is a LGBTQ friendly
32:36
ministry. So what does it mean to you to
32:39
close out this season with this very special note?
32:42
Yeah, well, I think if you watch the show, you're like, are they
32:44
ever going to kiss? Like the whole time you watch
32:47
the show, you're like enough, like enough, let's do something
32:51
already. So again, getting the script,
32:53
you're like, finally it's happening.
32:56
Doing Prism was so much fun. I think for me, I grew up
33:01
watching 90s club kids. I Geraldo Rivera 1994 episode of
33:08
the club kids. My God, I would come in.
33:10
I was just it's, it's it's incredible.
33:13
I feel so fortunate as a queer person to follow the storyline
33:17
through and finish off the episode, excuse me, finish off
33:19
the actually finale of the whole show doing this.
33:23
It's so I'm so fortunate. I think Gemstones is a great
33:27
show that you can break drag, bring queerness, Peacock and
33:32
it's you see it in all the costumes.
33:34
They see it in baby Billy and the oyster shell costume.
33:38
Yeah. I mean, I could go on and on.
33:39
I think it's very obvious that I watch endless amounts of
33:42
RuPaul's Drag Race and, you know, call me if you need
33:46
somebody, but yeah, I think it was.
33:48
It means a lot. I mean it, it really means so
33:51
much. I think especially thank you for
33:52
bringing it up during Pride Month.
33:55
It's a show of it's a it's a boys club.
33:59
You know, it's, it's a show that's very a religious show
34:02
that you just don't really get this kind of stuff on these kind
34:04
of shows or in general. So I'm honored that I got to be
34:10
able to tell the story, this narrative, and I got to do it
34:14
with these amazing guys. And yeah, that's it.
34:17
We're going to miss this series so much.
34:19
We need a Baby Billy spin off with the singer in front of
34:22
everyone here. Alex Beauvaire, this is my first
34:26
time talking to you when you're not in another country.
34:28
So I'm very excited about that. The rival episode of every
34:32
season with the White Lotus is like my Super Bowl when they're
34:35
all just lined up getting ready to enter the resort.
34:37
We're all just so excited for that.
34:40
My favorite group this year was, of course, the Girls Trip trio,
34:43
Jacqueline, Laurie and Kate. And there's a subtle
34:47
doppelganger feel about all of them.
34:49
But each of their personalities do kind of peek through,
34:52
especially if like Laurie, who's kind of like a mess at times
34:54
just trying to get together. So how do you approach costume
34:57
costuming them as a group and while still highlighting their
35:00
individual virtuality? Well, I designed them as if they
35:06
were one character in a way, with three heads.
35:10
And Mike White described them as one blonde BLOB.
35:17
And so when you meet them, he asked, he asked Michelle to dye
35:20
her hair blonde so that they were all, they were the same
35:24
hair color. And we wanted them to be a
35:26
little bit interchangeable at first, but then as you dig a
35:30
little bit deeper, the there's differences.
35:33
And there was a strong theme of everybody having a facade and
35:40
fronting and these girlfriends pretending that everything was
35:44
OK. And so we told that story with
35:47
their clothes. And Jacqueline is an actress, so
35:52
we imagine she has access to a lot of designer clothing and
35:57
posh bags and accessories. And all three of them were my
36:01
Sex in the City trio, really, where they had like you couldn't
36:04
really see, but they had amazing shoes and way too many jewelry
36:09
choices. And they were fronting for each
36:13
other, pretending that their lives were perfect when each of
36:17
them had things going on inside that they needed each other for.
36:22
So yeah, that's how I approached it.
36:24
And the the white Lotus is always very colorful and very
36:26
fun. So it was, it was great to play
36:31
around with these ladies who were trying to impress each
36:34
other. So in a way, even though it's a
36:36
contemporary show, everybody puts on a bit of a costume on
36:41
the White Lotus. They go, they dress for dinner,
36:45
and they pretend. Right, and as messed up as the
36:49
Ratliff family is, if you know kind of know, you can't help but
36:54
love them and they're privileged Southern style.
36:57
Especially when it comes to the one and only Parker Posey.
37:00
As our lorazepam loving matriarch, I can watch the
37:04
entire hour of her every Sunday just walking around chewing
37:07
people out with her parasol. Honestly, how did you land on
37:11
Victoria's Look, and how does it reflect both her status and that
37:14
unforgettable personality? Well, I'm married to a
37:19
southerner and I live in the South.
37:21
I've been to quite a few places where I've come across ladies a
37:27
little bit like Victoria so and I bought a lot of things down in
37:32
the South and there was a website called Tuck Anuck that I
37:35
bought a lot of things from. So before Parker was cast
37:41
because we everybody gets fit in Thailand.
37:44
I think I saw a couple of people before I left, but I have to
37:47
bring a lot with me. So I'd already started shopping
37:51
way before Victoria came to Thailand.
37:54
And I went to this lady in Alabama and bought a lot of very
37:59
colorful kaftans. And I imagine that Victoria is
38:03
comfortable and doesn't, she doesn't go to the beach.
38:06
She doesn't want to get sandy. She doesn't go to the pool.
38:09
She doesn't really do anything. She doesn't even know where she
38:11
is. She thinks she's in, She thinks
38:13
she's in Taiwan. So we just kept her comfy and,
38:19
you know, larger than life. And Parker is, you know, when
38:23
she was delivering her lines, I could tell she was going to be
38:26
very memeable and very funny. So, so yeah, just it's always a
38:31
lot of real life inspiration on The White Lotus because it's a
38:34
satire. So we try and nail it with who
38:38
they are bordering on stereotyping and but also try
38:44
and make them relatable and likeable.
38:46
So want them to look good as well.
38:48
Right. I feel like I have time for one
38:52
more question each. Yeah.
38:53
OK, cool. They said, yeah, let's do it.
38:54
One more. One more round.
38:57
Boyana. There is a beautiful Red Wedding
39:00
gown right outside these doors. And I love it because you could
39:04
feel the cagey. I mean, this poor woman is Gary
39:07
to marry someone that's I don't know how old, but not old
39:10
enough. So can you walk us through that
39:13
inspiration and how you were able to make her feel so trapped
39:16
and that very stunning gown? I'm glad that you feel like that
39:20
because that was the idea. We may I really, when I think of
39:24
this amount of sketches and drawings that we made for that I
39:28
made for that dress, I mean, it's amazing.
39:31
And recently I just, you know, like an an iPad when all of a
39:35
sudden you get a picture. That was one of the first
39:37
inspirations like and I couldn't believe from where we where I
39:42
started and where we finished. So but on the end, finally we
39:46
got there where we where we wanted to be.
39:49
So first of all, we wanted to it was such a task to find the
39:55
fabric that will we wanted the red dress.
39:59
I talked a lot with the director and a Foster and we wanted the
40:03
and showrunner Alison Shepker. We wanted the red dress and.
40:07
We were trying to find but you cannot.
40:09
We all know how difficult it is to find the right fabrics
40:12
nowadays. So finally, and I'm I'm glad
40:16
that we all talked about that crew.
40:18
Crew is so important for all of us working in costumes.
40:21
So we I have a wonderful textile designers.
40:25
I have a wonderful assistant who is really good in everything and
40:28
we did so many we got went to that laser cut world where you
40:33
apparently can do whatever you want.
40:36
So finally we created our own fabric for that dress and laying
40:42
one one layer of fabric on the top of the basic fabric, but for
40:48
laser cutting in between. So it's, I think it's, it's can
40:52
be seen seen here. And also the the whale that
40:55
originally was supposed to be totally transparent, like a like
40:59
a nude color. But then we understood that that
41:02
whale will kill our red. So we came to the red whale and
41:07
we added the pieces and then it was a headpiece that was
41:10
supposed not only to show that look, that trapped look that we
41:16
see on the upper part of the of the dress, but also to be easy
41:20
to put on. And, and because in the certain
41:23
moment, she just when she finished the whole prudent
41:28
ceremony, she just take it off and she runs in the into her
41:32
world, into her real world. So those were all difficulties
41:36
and those were all things that we had to achieve.
41:39
But I'm saying we're working really close together, all of
41:43
us, and working very hard. I I think that finally we, we,
41:47
we got there, yeah. You got it.
41:49
It's. Yeah.
41:49
It's tragically beautiful. I really hope everyone walks out
41:52
there after this, which will be shortly, and you're able to
41:54
check it out. Kathleen, can we please talk
41:58
about the most unhinged character in the Hex universe?
42:01
Dance Mom. Yes.
42:04
And also, I wish Julian Nicholson would run out here and
42:07
dance for us at the end. Here she comes now.
42:10
She was amazing. When they cast Julianne to be
42:13
Dance Mom, I was like, what? Because she's so known for her
42:17
dramatic, you know, and she's a very serious actor and Dance Mom
42:21
is completely unhinged. And when she came for the
42:24
fitting, we probably had the best two hours.
42:28
I mean, we just laughed. And we were I was taking
42:31
pictures and she was saying she was had been choreographed and
42:34
working with a choreographer about her silly dance.
42:37
And she was like dancing all around.
42:38
And you know, she had a an arc where she started out in her
42:42
TikTok videos. It's very sort of wholesome and
42:44
sweet and very little corny. And then she goes completely off
42:48
the rails. So it's always fun when you have
42:51
those moments in when an actor is like so game to just dive in.
42:56
And it was really fun to work with her this season.
43:00
Yeah, bring Dance Mom back if she recovers.
43:03
I don't. Know.
43:04
It feels debatable. She was.
43:06
Pretty. High the last.
43:07
Time we saw her so not looking good.
43:10
Caroline Dragons are not real, so I've been told allegedly, but
43:16
the dragon fire very much is and it really takes a toll on these
43:20
costumes. Can you talk about especially
43:23
Rooks Rest where we see entire army get obliterated by dragon
43:26
fire? That must have been fun to deal
43:28
with. Yes, so much fun, yes.
43:35
So all, all the burns you see on House of the Dragon are real
43:42
stuntman burning. We did 48 burns on Series 2,
43:50
which actually amounted to ASA because you can have two goals
43:53
at it apparently in the same costume.
43:57
And so the first, the armour, the armies are designed first.
44:04
They're the first things that are designed because it takes so
44:07
long to manufacture them. So before the stunt coordinator
44:10
is on board, we've already decided the costumes.
44:13
So by the time he tells us who's going to burn, then it's then we
44:18
just have to figure it out. But when you burn a stuntman, it
44:24
all has to be natural fibers. Everything has to be recreate,
44:28
recreated naturally. So if there are metal elements,
44:31
for example, you recreate them in leather.
44:35
And chain mail can be knitted or printed, and you have to fit
44:42
over their burn suit, which like a racing driver's suit.
44:46
And they have prosthetic masks. And we recreate the costume over
44:53
that bulk. Yeah.
44:59
So, you know, so like Darkland when who's a Queen's Guard when
45:05
he's burnt, his armor was completely recreated in leather.
45:13
So yeah, it, it's a lot. And it's not just, you know, the
45:18
crew are absolutely amazing, but the crew that look at, you know,
45:22
looking after a stuntman who's about to burn, it's quite, you
45:26
know, nerve wracking. Oh, and also, oh, also you have
45:30
harnesses and pads and all sorts of things going on under
45:35
underneath as well because they could be being thrown through
45:37
the air and then set a light. Yeah.
45:40
So, you know, we just, we just roll with the punches and then
45:45
burn them. Yeah, Every time I see Dragons
45:49
now, I'm going to think of you. Like, no.
45:53
And one of my favorite moments of the entire season is when
45:56
Ellie and Dina show up to Seattle and they're like, this
45:58
thing was nice. And then you find out not really
46:03
the case. There's two different factions
46:05
going on here, the WLF and the Seraphytes.
46:09
And I'm so fascinated by the Seraphytes because they feel
46:11
very practical and they're choosing to live in the forest
46:14
and the parks. Well, they're a religious sect.
46:18
They're very Luddite. They create, they make their own
46:23
weapons, they make their own clothes and the Sarah fights
46:27
were one of the things that actually drew me to wanting to
46:30
do season 2 because I was really fascinated with them in the
46:33
game. I did not play the game.
46:36
I watched a 15 hour playthrough so I feel like I.
46:40
Too scary. Yeah.
46:42
And in the game, they weren't really fleshed out as much as
46:47
they should have been. And I did work with Naughty Dog
46:50
and we had multiple conversations with the game
46:53
designers about how they got to this place and where we could
46:57
take it from there. And the concept illustrator that
47:01
I work with, imaging Shays, is amazing.
47:05
Yeah. And, And we really had a
47:10
incredible time fleshing them out and changing them a little
47:15
bit from the game, but staying true to the essence of what they
47:18
were in the game. But like in the game, they're
47:20
wearing raincoats. And it just didn't make sense to
47:22
me. So I thought maybe it should be
47:25
something like a poncho that they would make.
47:28
And because they're close to the water in Seattle and they're in
47:32
the forest, the color palette is of the forest.
47:36
But maybe they went to that abandoned Marina and they got
47:39
the canvas off of boats and that's what they used to create
47:42
their ponchos. And then my breakdown team hand
47:46
painted the Seraphyte symbol on the back of each one of the
47:49
ponchos. So everybody had their own
47:52
personalized Seraphyte symbol. Right, so terrifying and I can't
47:56
wait to see more of them in the future.
47:57
Kind of I mean, I'm a little terrified excited to see them.
48:02
Susan, I was going to ask you about the quick timeline, but I
48:04
think we nailed that. So tell me about working at
48:07
collaborating with director Jesse Armstrong, who obviously
48:11
just came off of Succession. So what was it like
48:13
collaborating with your director on Mountain Head?
48:17
Well, it was his directorial debut, which he he was.
48:23
He's really a very nice man. And he said, I hope you don't
48:26
mind working with the first time director.
48:28
I was like, it's OK, yeah, I'll manage.
48:31
We'll be fine. Yeah, we'll be OK.
48:33
I mean, it's not like you haven't spent years and years on
48:36
sets. So he was very easy to work
48:39
with. His direction was very
48:42
collaborative. He had a few notes.
48:45
If you if you see the film, there is, you'll see that the
48:50
characters, they all arrive and then they take a snowmobile trip
48:55
and they all wear the exact same orange outfit.
48:58
That kind of sort of, you know, and it's, I don't want to say
49:03
unified, but it neutralizes them.
49:05
You know, they step out of everything, then they come out
49:08
of their arrival clothing, then you see them disrobing and
49:14
gathering as get as they're getting bad news.
49:16
And his one note to me was to make sure they were all wearing
49:19
their their long underwear, their long Johns for the next
49:23
almost 1415 pages where they have this rapid fire dialogue
49:29
about the world falling apart and what they would do to rule
49:32
the world. And he really wanted it to be in
49:35
their long underwear. And because there is something
49:38
quite funny about that. And I will say that when you
49:41
tell an actor in a fitting that you're going to do this in your
49:43
long underwear, you might as well have said Speedo because it
49:47
was really, you know, A cause for great concern.
49:51
But that was the his really a very important note that he
49:54
wanted. He didn't ask for.
49:56
You know, he's very, you know, he has an opinion and so on.
50:01
But there were very few requests, but things like that.
50:05
It was more about where you find the change in the story because
50:08
it it all happens in this truncated time.
50:12
So I found him incredible to work with, frankly.
50:15
Yeah, he also gave us like, evil Steve Carell, which is so
50:19
frightening as well, too. Helen, let's talk about Gotham
50:24
City as a whole. What I love so much about it is
50:27
just how real and authentic this Gotham City is.
50:30
It's a comic book world, but it very much mirrors almost like
50:34
New York City or Chicago in in ways.
50:37
So can you talk about your approach to building a Gotham
50:40
that feels inclusive and reflective the real world while
50:43
staying true to the show's genre?
50:46
I think, you know, it stems from the movie that Matt created this
50:51
world. And so in our version, we were
50:55
talking about what the grounds up looks like because usually in
50:59
a Batman movies, it's Batman's point of view.
51:03
I think they talked a lot about it needs to feel real, but a
51:07
step up. But my approach to anything,
51:10
even contemporary shows or movies, is that everything is
51:15
edited. It's a point of view from your
51:18
director to your DP to your production designer.
51:21
And so, like, you could look at anything as long as it's
51:27
emotionally truthful to the narrative that they're trying to
51:30
tell. And so for Gotham, we were
51:33
trying to make it a timeless city.
51:36
So we looked a lot at New York in the late 1970s when
51:40
institutions were failing and it was very bankrupted and sort of
51:46
not caring for their citizens to give Oz this environment where
51:50
he could rise up. You know, for Oz, we didn't even
51:54
look at anything current. We looked at the 1970s, we
51:59
looked at a little bit of 80s, we looked at a lot of 1940s
52:02
because he likes that classic masculine, masculine look for
52:09
Victory was 1990s. For Sophia, it really ranged all
52:13
over the place because of her narrative.
52:15
And so, yeah, for me, it's sort of looking at the composition of
52:23
what you're trying to make versus real on a on a very flat
52:30
dimension. Sure.
52:32
Well, the rest of this conversation is basically about
52:35
Walton Goggins. He's not here, but he's very
52:37
much in the room with us with our last two designers,
52:42
Christina, baby Billy. Walton Goggins came straight
52:46
from hanging out with Alex to come hang out with you.
52:48
I believe Baby Billy is quite the costume designer's dream in
52:52
the sense that he just really is over the tap, over the top at
52:56
all times. And in this season, he's now
52:58
starting to work on this feature film.
53:00
So he starts again to the Hollywood mindset, which comes
53:03
with like, some cocaine and, you know, all sorts of good stuff.
53:06
It's right outside, actually, that great telephone look.
53:09
I was hoping you could tell us how Baby Billy's final season.
53:13
I thought you meant cocaine was right outside.
53:17
Yeah, he did just come off of the White Lotus.
53:20
And OK, so let me just start with the oyster shell costume
53:23
from season 3. How do you come back?
53:26
How do you like what? Where do you go from this?
53:28
This thing is insane. He's in a walkabout costume.
53:31
I don't, I, I just, I cannot imagine.
53:34
OK, yes, he got way crazier because he became a coke fueled
53:39
70s style director. And I think, you know, we looked
53:42
at zoot suits. We looked at, I mean, a lot of
53:47
my reference from this season definitely came from like 70's
53:50
porn And the thing about baby Billy, which is well, let me
53:54
see. The great thing about Walton is
53:56
I will give him. I mean, I think you can probably
53:58
attest to this. He is a champion for costume
54:01
designers in costume. And then you don't find that,
54:04
you know, he he goes on and talks about costumes to he's
54:08
just an incredible person, so great to work with.
54:10
I've worked with him for years. And him coming off of White
54:13
Lotus, which is a completely different experience coming in
54:17
there and being like, oh, I'm going to put this gigantic
54:20
child's outfit on, which is the Teleson outfit you see out
54:23
there. And he's always game.
54:25
And, you know, he's just a joy to be around and collaborate
54:30
with. So, you know, yeah, it's, it's
54:32
as simple as cocaine, the 70s and Elvis, you know, So I don't
54:40
know what more to say about it than that.
54:42
I mean, I think, you know, we got teen just he, we're going to
54:45
do this biblical thing. I was like, holy shit, this is
54:48
weird too. But working on a show like the
54:50
Righteous Gemsons, you just, you just never know where you're
54:53
going to go, where Danny's going to take you.
54:55
And you know, he can take you to teen just he can take you to the
54:58
Civil War or he can take you like to him getting clothes
55:02
lined by somebody at a alligator farm high on cocaine.
55:06
So a great character and I feel so I getting fortunate and I, I
55:12
can't imagine I'll ever get anybody as fun to work within
55:14
that. Right.
55:16
And Alex, we're wrapping it up with you.
55:18
Chelsea and Rick, played by Amy Lee Wood and Walton Goggins, on
55:22
the other hand, are very free spirited compared to the other
55:25
characters we talked about. Rick always seems like he's one
55:28
breath away from a mental breakdown, while Chelsea is kind
55:31
of keeping him grounded, very bohemian.
55:34
So can you talk about designing for these two, especially given
55:37
how different their energies are?
55:41
Yeah, and I'm not sure if he did it for you, but for White Lotus,
55:45
he stays in character the all day.
55:49
You know, he's he's Rick in the dressing room.
55:52
He's Rick at lunch. He's Rick you're waiting to go
55:54
on camera. So a really intense guy to to
55:59
talk to these two were supposed to sort of roll off the boat and
56:07
you, you, you wonder where they've come from, what their
56:10
story is. They're not quintessential White
56:12
Lotus guests. They look a little bit more
56:15
ragamuffin and they've been on the on the go.
56:21
They've been out of their countries.
56:23
Chelsea left England a while ago.
56:25
Rick left America a while ago. Chelsea's running towards
56:30
something, Rick is running away and they just find each other.
56:34
And they were really a pleasure to design for because they're
56:39
both really nice people. When Walton is Walton, he as
56:44
Christina was saying he's he's really awesome.
56:46
He was supposed to be bold. It's written that Rick is bold,
56:49
completely bold. And he was supposed to, you
56:53
know, in the first couple of days in Thailand, get his head
56:57
completely shaved. And so one of my first
56:59
interactions with him was he was really upset and he really
57:04
wanted to talk to Mike about how he didn't actually want to be
57:08
bold. He didn't want to go through
57:09
with it. So.
57:10
So that was a big, big hurdle for him to cross.
57:14
And then once he won that battle, he was happy to slide
57:19
into my shirts. And we had a lot of fun.
57:23
I mean, I had 40 different shirts for him because we're
57:29
shooting on an island in the middle of the sea of Thailand,
57:32
so there's not you have to bring everything with you.
57:35
And we had a lot of fun. All the actresses always wanted
57:39
to wear Rick's shirts as well, so they got divvied out.
57:44
And then Chelsea, yeah, there's she's, she's got an eclectic
57:50
style and she gets things from flea markets and packs as she
57:55
goes and, and yeah, they're just real free spirits.
57:59
And I knew, I knew where the story was going.
58:01
So just try to make them more and more romantic as they as the
58:06
series progressed. And unfortunately, that brings
58:10
us to the end. Please give a huge round of
58:12
applause for each of these incredible designers.
58:14
Alex Will Baird, Christina Flannery, Helena Vong, Susan
58:17
Lyle and Foley. Caroline McCall, Kathleen Felix
58:20
Hair But Yana Nikki Tovich.