Latest / Mic Drop Comedy / Donald Trump Runs the Military _ The Role of Militias - Jordan Klepper Fingers the Conspiracy

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Donald Trump Runs the Military _ The Role of Militias - Jordan Klepper Fingers the Conspiracy · Mic Drop Comedy

0:00
Speaker 1: It's been two years since Donald Trump lost the 2020 election.
0:03
Speaker 1: And although a stubbornly high number of Republicans still don't
0:07
Speaker 1: believe he lost, they are at least coming around to
0:09
Speaker 1: the reality that he is no longer the president. Who
0:12
Speaker 1: is running the government right now?
0:13
Speaker 2: President Trump.
0:15
Speaker 1: Well, most of them are. For some, the truth is
0:18
Speaker 1: just too much to bear. I found this out firsthand
0:21
Speaker 1: when I was told at a MAGA rally that Trump
0:23
Speaker 1: is still in charge of the military. He's running the government.
0:27
Speaker 1: And the military. And he's running the military. So we
0:30
Speaker 1: should blame him for what happened in Afghanistan?
0:33
Speaker 3: No.
0:33
Speaker 1: Thank you for talking to me, George. Enjoy seeing President,
0:36
Speaker 1: current President Trump. It makes me think of that famous
0:39
Speaker 1: courtroom quote from A Few Good Men. You can't handle
0:41
Speaker 1: the truth. Although, if you think about it, that's a
0:44
Speaker 1: quote from Colonel Nathan R. Jessup, who, as a member
0:47
Speaker 1: of the military, if logic follows, still reports to Donald Trump.
0:51
Speaker 1: Damn it. Checkmate it again. This is Jordan Klepper, Figures
0:55
Speaker 1: the Conspiracy, and today we're talking about the military. The
0:59
Speaker 1: Trump is still in charge of the military conspiracy theory.
1:02
Speaker 1: It's just one of many military-related conspiracy theories. And we
1:05
Speaker 1: have two people here with us today who know a
1:07
Speaker 1: lot about them and the people who believe them, both
1:10
Speaker 1: outside and inside military ranks. They are Paul Zoldra, a
1:14
Speaker 1: veteran who covers military issues and is the editor of
1:17
Speaker 1: the weekly newsletter, The Ruck, that focuses on national security
1:20
Speaker 1: and defense. And we're also joined by Dr. Amy Cooter
1:23
Speaker 1: of Middlebury College, who has studied and spent time with
1:26
Speaker 1: militia groups like the Oath Keepers. Guys, welcome aboard.
1:29
Speaker 4: Nice to be here.
1:29
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
1:31
Speaker 1: Good to have you guys. All right, Paul, I want
1:33
Speaker 1: to start here. Help us understand the logic behind the
1:37
Speaker 1: theory that Donald Trump is still in charge of the military.
1:41
Speaker 1: I mean, even with Ivanka bailing on the campaign, I'm
1:44
Speaker 1: not even convinced he's in charge of his family anymore.
1:49
Speaker 1: Walk us through this. How is he in charge of
1:53
Speaker 1: the military?
1:54
Speaker 4: Well, Jordan, he's the commander-in-chief still. He didn't lose the election.
1:57
Speaker 4: I mean, didn't you read that?
2:00
Speaker 1: That's how it works. If you believe it, you can
2:03
Speaker 1: achieve it and or convince a bunch of other people
2:05
Speaker 1: you have achieved it. It seems wild. So why do
2:09
Speaker 1: people actually think this?
2:11
Speaker 4: It really boils down to a lot of his supporters
2:15
Speaker 4: believe that he did not lose the election. And, you know,
2:20
Speaker 4: that's kind of coming into... an interesting, uh, interesting part
2:25
Speaker 4: where he's running for reelection now, um, even though he
2:29
Speaker 4: didn't lose the last election, but, uh, even still, um, yeah,
2:35
Speaker 4: he's the commander in chief. And so if he's, if
2:37
Speaker 4: he's still the president of the United States, then he's
2:39
Speaker 4: still the commander in chief and he's still has pull
2:42
Speaker 4: in the military. And, um, and, and, oh, by the way, um,
2:45
Speaker 4: a whole bunch of the military is, is, is supportive
2:49
Speaker 4: of Trump and, and we'll, we'll, You know, go with
2:52
Speaker 4: his every word. I hope the sarcasm is coming through.
2:54
Speaker 1: By the way. I can hear some of the sarcasm
2:58
Speaker 1: in there. I guess what, help me walk through a
3:00
Speaker 1: little bit of, it sounds ridiculous, but it's not the
3:04
Speaker 1: only time I've heard this out and about. I know
3:06
Speaker 1: people are denying the idea that Donald Trump lost the election,
3:11
Speaker 1: but there are people who still believe, okay, he lost
3:13
Speaker 1: and Biden is in charge, but that there is something
3:16
Speaker 1: going on that we cannot see where Donald Trump is
3:20
Speaker 1: in charge of the military apparatus. Can you speak to
3:24
Speaker 1: that mindset? I know it's not true, but speak to
3:27
Speaker 1: the mindset. Where does something like that come from? Why
3:31
Speaker 1: are there people who are grasping onto this? Is there
3:33
Speaker 1: like a military idea that there is some sort of
3:36
Speaker 1: shadow general, shadow leader? What draws people to this other
3:42
Speaker 1: than the inability to let go of the idea that
3:45
Speaker 1: Trump is still president?
3:47
Speaker 2: Well, I think.
3:48
Speaker 4: think it would come, I think primarily you look back
3:52
Speaker 4: to the QAnon conspiracy of there's this big, massive underground
4:03
Speaker 4: lizard galaxy of Democrats and celebrities stealing children and doing
4:12
Speaker 4: all kinds of stuff. And that all came from a
4:16
Speaker 4: person calling himself himself, Q, many people became convinced by
4:25
Speaker 4: this whole idea of getting really highly classified information inside
4:29
Speaker 4: the government. And the idea was at that time was
4:34
Speaker 4: Q was inside. It was supportive of the Trump administration
4:40
Speaker 4: and fighting back against the so-called deep state that is
4:46
Speaker 4: trying to thwart his agenda. So if you think that,
4:51
Speaker 4: if you can believe that, that there's some person inside
4:56
Speaker 4: the government who's not only sharing all this really highly
5:00
Speaker 4: classified information with the public on a message board, I
5:07
Speaker 4: don't see much separation. I don't see how we go
5:12
Speaker 4: from that to believing that Trump is still president. That's
5:16
Speaker 4: not that wacky. when you think about it, you know?
5:20
Speaker 1: I think what always makes me laugh within it, though,
5:23
Speaker 1: is the belief in the fun parts, the wearing of
5:26
Speaker 1: the uniform and the stars and the power, but none
5:29
Speaker 1: of the accountability of what has happened. You know, we
5:32
Speaker 1: discuss the critical things that people are critical of, the
5:36
Speaker 1: Afghanistan withdrawal, and the person that I talked to very
5:39
Speaker 1: clearly was like, no, no, he had nothing to do
5:41
Speaker 1: with that. It's almost as if, you know, in military parlance,
5:45
Speaker 1: you have a dress uniform, correct? I'm Not somebody who
5:48
Speaker 1: was in the military, but I've definitely watched films that
5:51
Speaker 1: are about the military. And I have to understand that
5:54
Speaker 1: you have a dress uniform. And you also, as an infantryman,
5:57
Speaker 1: you were in the Marines, correct?
5:58
Speaker 2: Correct, yes.
5:59
Speaker 1: You also have something you might wear functionally to go
6:02
Speaker 1: do dirtier, more applicable things, right?
6:05
Speaker 2: Yes.
6:05
Speaker 4: Camouflage, yes.
6:07
Speaker 2: Camo.
6:07
Speaker 1: I knew it. Camo. I've done all the research. And
6:10
Speaker 1: it's as if believing in this theory is a belief
6:12
Speaker 1: that you only get to wear your dress whites and
6:15
Speaker 1: that there is no secondary part to it all, which
6:18
Speaker 1: is sort of emblematic of the whole American thought process.
6:22
Speaker 4: I think you actually bring up a really good point,
6:25
Speaker 4: which is a lot of these conspiracy theories, they hinge
6:31
Speaker 4: on people's ignorance of the military. less than 1% of
6:38
Speaker 4: Americans serve in the military. It's a very small number.
6:42
Speaker 4: During World War II, we had about 10% of Americans
6:48
Speaker 4: in the military. Of course, we're fighting a gigantic war,
6:52
Speaker 4: and that makes sense. But that number is so much
6:57
Speaker 4: smaller now. And so what I've found from just reporting
7:04
Speaker 4: on these issues for the past decade, being in the
7:06
Speaker 4: Marine Corps before that, most people have no idea how
7:11
Speaker 4: the military works. I think a lot of people think
7:16
Speaker 4: that we just march around, we salute, and then they
7:21
Speaker 4: press a button, break glass, and you go to war,
7:24
Speaker 4: and there's a black box in there. Nobody really understands
7:28
Speaker 4: what it's actually like And, and, you know, the thing
7:31
Speaker 4: is that most of it's really boring, you know, we're
7:34
Speaker 4: just sitting around waiting, waiting to do things. Um, we're
7:38
Speaker 4: doing maintenance or other kinds of stuff, but those are
7:41
Speaker 4: less sexy parts of the military that the military itself
7:44
Speaker 4: doesn't really share all that much with the public. Um,
7:48
Speaker 4: and you know, that ignorance really feeds these ideas, you know,
7:52
Speaker 4: that the military is, you know, doing nefarious things and,
7:55
Speaker 4: you know, they're up to no good. And, and also, um,
7:59
Speaker 4: also the, the idea that the military can do these
8:02
Speaker 4: amazing things with ease, you know, like, like, like the
8:08
Speaker 4: Benghazi attack could have just been stopped just, just easily by, by,
8:14
Speaker 4: you know, the military just swooping in there with jets
8:18
Speaker 4: from Italy and stuff like that. It takes more planning and,
8:23
Speaker 4: and actually, you know, diving in and figuring out how
8:26
Speaker 4: to actually do things. It's, It's almost like a comic
8:32
Speaker 4: book caricature of the military is what you get from
8:37
Speaker 4: a lot of Americans who just don't really know any better.
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Speaker 1: So you're telling me even if you've played Call of Duty,
8:43
Speaker 1: that's not enough information to fully understand how the military works.
8:48
Speaker 4: I mean, Call of Duty is realistic for combat experience-ish.
8:52
Speaker 1: See, I knew it. Enough said. Enough said. Enough said.
8:56
Speaker 1: Much like if you watched Wag the Dog, you understand
8:59
Speaker 1: American politics as well. That and maybe half of American president,
9:03
Speaker 1: you get it. You know how this thing works. Now
9:05
Speaker 1: you should talk about it and fear the institutions in
9:08
Speaker 1: and of themselves.
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Speaker 4: If Call of Duty was more realistic, there would be
9:12
Speaker 4: soldiers sitting around really bored, smoking cigarettes- You know, really,
9:19
Speaker 4: you know, bitching about their chain of command and complaining
9:22
Speaker 4: about complaining about, you know, going out on patrol that day.
9:26
Speaker 4: Like that's that's the more realistic version of combat operations.
9:32
Speaker 4: The joke is like the joke is like, you know,
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Speaker 4: combat is is 90 or 1 percent sheer terror and
9:40
Speaker 4: 99 percent boredom. And that that usually is is is.
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Speaker 1: Pretty accurate yeah so like bitching and moaning is a
9:47
Speaker 1: part of the military so play your call of duty
9:49
Speaker 1: but then make sure you watch a good season of
9:51
Speaker 1: curb your enthusiasm to get the full understanding right i
9:55
Speaker 1: knew it i knew it I want to actually fill
9:58
Speaker 1: out this. We're talking about the military here, but sort
10:00
Speaker 1: of our conversation today is going to fold in also
10:03
Speaker 1: the worlds of militias and citizen militias. So I want
10:07
Speaker 1: to bring Amy in. Amy, a lot of these conspiracy theories,
10:11
Speaker 1: they become incoherent the further you look into them. But
10:15
Speaker 1: I want to talk about what you've studied, citizen militias.
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Speaker 1: Can you define for our audience what is a militia
10:21
Speaker 1: compared to what being in the military is? And also,
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Speaker 1: as somebody who's studied, who's talked about militias, I'm curious
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Speaker 1: if you have a militia code name, because I do,
10:30
Speaker 1: and it's Cold Brew, and it got me a lot
10:32
Speaker 1: of cred with the Georgia State Militia. Does everybody here
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Speaker 1: get a cool nickname?
10:37
Speaker 2: Yes, sir.
10:37
Speaker 3: If you don't have one, we'll help get one for you.
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Speaker 1: Could I be Cold Brew, or if that's taken French press?
10:45
Speaker 1: Cold Brew works better, I think.
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Speaker 2: You like that?
10:48
Speaker 5: Yes, sir.
10:48
Speaker 1: Feels very bold, yet smooth finish.
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Speaker 2: Well, to start with your first question, U.S. domestic militias
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Speaker 2: are civilian militias. They are intended to exist outside the military,
11:02
Speaker 2: outside the National Guard. And their members are people who
11:06
Speaker 2: really see it as their personal civic duty to kind
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Speaker 2: of act in concert in some ways with the military,
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Speaker 2: to be almost a civilian line of defense, against potentially invasion,
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Speaker 2: potentially natural disasters, anything in between. A lot of the
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Speaker 2: members actually have military training. And among the groups I studied,
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Speaker 2: about two thirds of the leaders and about one third
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Speaker 2: of the other members had some service experience. And many
11:37
Speaker 2: of the others who did not kind of felt like
11:40
Speaker 2: they had missed out. They had wanted to be in
11:42
Speaker 2: the service, but didn't qualify medically. Or for some other reason,
11:46
Speaker 2: didn't get that service. And this was almost like a
11:48
Speaker 2: surrogate for them. Their experiences were really about trying to,
11:54
Speaker 2: in their view, stand up for their country, defend the
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Speaker 2: Constitution and the American way of life in terms of
12:01
Speaker 2: how they specifically defined it.
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Speaker 1: And as to a codename, do you have a codename?
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Speaker 2: Some of them actually did call me renegade because I
12:09
Speaker 2: would study them at a time when it was not
12:11
Speaker 2: really popular for liberal academics to be dealing with more
12:15
Speaker 2: conservative topics.
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Speaker 1: Well, I will say this. I was talking with Amy
12:18
Speaker 1: offline a little bit about this, but I read Amy's
12:22
Speaker 1: dissertation years ago because I'm fascinated about militias. I'm from Michigan,
12:29
Speaker 1: which if you're into militias, Michigan's a great place to be.
12:31
Speaker 1: We got some OG militia action happening there. And I
12:35
Speaker 1: think what is fascinating about it is There's been a
12:38
Speaker 1: lot of talk about the effects of militias and extremist
12:41
Speaker 1: groups recently, but you've been doing this for quite some
12:45
Speaker 1: time right now. What a lot of people I don't
12:47
Speaker 1: think look into is what is appealing about militias, the
12:51
Speaker 1: process of militias, and the average militia goer. I think
12:54
Speaker 1: what I noticed with some of the time that I
12:56
Speaker 1: spent with a few militia members, I spent some time
12:58
Speaker 1: with some Oath Keepers recently, just hanging out, having fun,
13:01
Speaker 1: watching mailboxes, trying to save the election. And I hung
13:04
Speaker 1: out with some folks in Georgia way back when, and
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Speaker 1: I think the military side of it is fascinating because
13:11
Speaker 1: there are some of those people, Oath Keepers in particular,
13:13
Speaker 1: who are ex-military folks, ex-cops, who see it as an
13:18
Speaker 1: extension of their service. They made an oath to this
13:21
Speaker 1: country and to the Constitution, and this is their extension
13:24
Speaker 1: of it. There are other folks, too, who feel like
13:28
Speaker 1: just day players who wanted to be in the military,
13:31
Speaker 1: and perhaps some had very Interesting stories about an inability
13:37
Speaker 1: to get into the military. Like, you had an astigmatism,
13:41
Speaker 1: so now you want to be in the militia. It's
13:44
Speaker 1: good enough. Okay, fine. I get it. Seeing a lot
13:47
Speaker 1: of cosplay here.
13:48
Speaker 5: There's military here, and then there's a lot of these
13:50
Speaker 5: people who are pretending to be military here.
13:54
Speaker 1: You know how you know? Because they don't have badges.
13:57
Speaker 5: They just have notes from their wife that says, you
14:00
Speaker 5: can go for the weekend and hang out with your friends,
14:02
Speaker 5: but be back on time.
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Speaker 1: But there's this funny balance of people wanting to serve,
14:07
Speaker 1: people pretending to serve. And I guess I'm curious, too,
14:10
Speaker 1: of how you see that aligned with their relationships to
14:16
Speaker 1: actual military forces. Do you often see it as in
14:20
Speaker 1: concert with the American military system? Or is oftentimes some
14:25
Speaker 1: of these militias looking to act in case the military
14:29
Speaker 1: in and of itself is something that turns on the
14:31
Speaker 1: American people?
14:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, the relationship that militias have with the military is
14:36
Speaker 2: frankly quite complicated. It's something that they tend to like
14:41
Speaker 2: in the abstract, in theory, at least, because they believe
14:44
Speaker 2: that military and national defense are kind of the primary
14:47
Speaker 2: functions of what the federal government is supposed to do.
14:50
Speaker 2: It's one of the few legitimate functions of the federal
14:53
Speaker 2: government from their perspective. But they think that in practice,
14:57
Speaker 2: the military is prone to corruption or other problems that
15:01
Speaker 2: they see as being kind of endemic to the government
15:04
Speaker 2: as a whole. So it tends to be the case
15:06
Speaker 2: and there can be variation across units or even across
15:09
Speaker 2: sometimes individual militia members. But it tends to be the
15:12
Speaker 2: case that they really honor and revere veterans and service
15:17
Speaker 2: members themselves. but have a lot of distrust for the
15:20
Speaker 2: military as an institution, have a lot of distrust for
15:24
Speaker 2: military leadership.
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Speaker 1: Paul, does that go both ways? You know the military
15:29
Speaker 1: world and those circles. What is the feeling for those
15:32
Speaker 1: in service when they look at the modern militia movement?
15:35
Speaker 4: There's military people in the militias, but also there are
15:39
Speaker 4: those people who are kind of, you know, we kind
15:42
Speaker 4: of call it stolen valor. If you're trying to kind
15:45
Speaker 4: of um, you know, represent yourself as, as part of
15:49
Speaker 4: the military, you know, and you, you know, like some
15:52
Speaker 4: people will do it a whole lot, you know, throwing
15:55
Speaker 4: metals on their chest and stuff like that. Others will
15:58
Speaker 4: just kind of pretend and wear the gear. And, you know,
16:01
Speaker 4: there's like, there's airsofters and stuff that wear all the gear.
16:04
Speaker 4: They look very military and represent themselves as if, you know, like, Hey,
16:09
Speaker 4: I get, get your, your thank you for your service
16:12
Speaker 4: free meal at Denny's or something. Um, but I, I
16:17
Speaker 4: think military members probably looking at the militia, they think
16:22
Speaker 4: they're a bunch of geeks. Get a job. If you
16:28
Speaker 4: want to join the military, then join the military. It
16:32
Speaker 4: just looks like this kind of pretend defense thing, and
16:36
Speaker 4: it really ignores the reality of– military operations and what
16:42
Speaker 4: the US military is capable of. If you're looking at
16:45
Speaker 4: a militia, if you're in a militia and you're training
16:51
Speaker 4: to defend the constitution, whatever that idea they think they
16:57
Speaker 4: are doing. But bottom line is they're also thinking about
17:02
Speaker 4: potentially going up against the US military. And that's not
17:09
Speaker 4: a winning battle You know, like guys with guys with
17:15
Speaker 4: small arms aren't going to really do much against an
17:17
Speaker 4: army with, you know, drones and and missiles and all
17:21
Speaker 4: kinds of stuff. And so it's it seems a little
17:25
Speaker 4: bit lopsided. But I think I think also they they
17:30
Speaker 4: tap into the military legitimacy of of wearing a uniform
17:37
Speaker 4: and looking like you're organized. and, you know, following some
17:42
Speaker 4: sort of chain of command. These are, these are military
17:46
Speaker 4: concepts and they, they make you look, you know, more professional.
17:53
Speaker 4: And that's the reason why they seek out military members
17:56
Speaker 4: and veterans, because that lends them credibility and legitimacy among,
18:01
Speaker 4: among their, their followers and supporters. You know, even, even
18:05
Speaker 4: if you're, even if you're some nerd who could never
18:12
Speaker 4: get into the military, well, you can at least join
18:14
Speaker 4: the militia and be close to former military members and
18:18
Speaker 4: it kind of brushes off on you.
18:22
Speaker 1: You are spilling that tea, spilling that tea on that militia. Well,
18:26
Speaker 1: I do think it also plays off of also the
18:29
Speaker 1: public perspective of the military. There's As a civilian, I
18:35
Speaker 1: think there is a general misunderstanding of the ranks and
18:39
Speaker 1: the difficulties and the world of the military. And so
18:41
Speaker 1: somebody purporting to be a militia member who wears the
18:45
Speaker 1: outfit to talk to the talk, um, in a public setting,
18:49
Speaker 1: is almost treated as a person with law enforcement bona
18:53
Speaker 1: fides or has put in the time. It's like if
18:56
Speaker 1: you buy enough T-shirts with flags on them and you
19:00
Speaker 1: have good enough posture, then liberal elites like myself are
19:04
Speaker 1: going to let you get on a plane before them,
19:07
Speaker 1: and they're not going to say anything about it. So
19:09
Speaker 1: you can steal enough valor to get you in certain positions.
19:14
Speaker 1: It's interesting. I'm curious, Amy— We talk about some of the,
19:20
Speaker 1: perhaps the goofier sides of that, and the desire to
19:24
Speaker 1: be more legitimate like the military. But you look at
19:27
Speaker 1: something like January 6th, and you have militia members, oath keepers,
19:33
Speaker 1: proud boys, people who are storming the Capitol with a
19:37
Speaker 1: legitimate fear that the military in and of itself could
19:41
Speaker 1: be utilized again. Against them the one thing you couldn't
19:44
Speaker 1: help but notice was just how many people looked like
19:47
Speaker 1: they were preparing for battle. From the tactical vests to
19:50
Speaker 1: the pitchforks, this rally felt charged. You can tell these
19:54
Speaker 1: people really.
19:54
Speaker 5: Love America by the number of weapons they brought to
19:58
Speaker 5: hurt other Americans.
20:00
Speaker 1: Where does a theory like that come from and how
20:03
Speaker 1: do they get to that point?
20:04
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think it can come from a
20:07
Speaker 2: few different places. But among some of the specific groups
20:10
Speaker 2: that I have spent time with, it's come in part
20:13
Speaker 2: from an interesting dynamic where everything that Paul just described
20:16
Speaker 2: is true, that there are these folks who really want
20:19
Speaker 2: to attach on to the military sort of aura, if
20:22
Speaker 2: you will, and try to kind of claim some of
20:25
Speaker 2: that legitimacy. But also there are veterans who actively seek
20:30
Speaker 2: out something like a militia to join. And that can
20:33
Speaker 2: be for one of two reasons. One reason is that
20:37
Speaker 2: they kind of miss the camaraderie of the military. They've
20:40
Speaker 2: been honorably discharged, and they want to find a space
20:43
Speaker 2: where people are trying to look up to them and
20:45
Speaker 2: learn from some of their experiences. On the other hand,
20:49
Speaker 2: I've encountered some folks who really did not enjoy their
20:53
Speaker 2: military experience, to say the least. They really felt like
20:57
Speaker 2: there was no legitimate purpose to some of the conflicts
21:00
Speaker 2: they were involved in. One man in particular, for example,
21:03
Speaker 2: really believes That Desert Storm was truly all about experimentation
21:08
Speaker 2: on service members, that there was no other legitimate purpose
21:11
Speaker 2: for it. He came back incredibly angry and told me
21:16
Speaker 2: that he wanted to join something like a militia as
21:19
Speaker 2: a way to figure out how to fight back against
21:22
Speaker 2: the government, to take a proactive stand against the government.
21:26
Speaker 2: So I think some of that kind of mentality kind
21:28
Speaker 2: of seeps in there where even some people who have
21:32
Speaker 2: direct military experience kind of feed those narratives that the
21:36
Speaker 2: military might be the enemy. And usually that narrative is
21:39
Speaker 2: not about the rank and file, but again, about the
21:41
Speaker 2: leadership or about the government. And then they're misleading the
21:44
Speaker 2: rank and file and they're doing all this nefarious stuff.
21:48
Speaker 2: that most military service members may not even be aware
21:51
Speaker 2: is happening. So they feel like it's their job to
21:53
Speaker 2: raise awareness of that, to fight back against it. In
21:57
Speaker 2: some ways, that's the logic that kind of undergirds the
21:59
Speaker 2: Oath Keepers as an organization as a whole, because their
22:02
Speaker 2: whole purpose was supposedly to remind military and law enforcement
22:07
Speaker 2: about the oaths that they took to serve the people
22:10
Speaker 2: as opposed to serving the government.
22:12
Speaker 1: I want to talk a little bit about that distrust there, Paul.
22:15
Speaker 1: You've written and you've been very critical of some of
22:18
Speaker 1: the conspiracy theories that have been perpetrated by Donald Trump.
22:23
Speaker 1: You've called him America's crazy uncle because of these conspiracies
22:27
Speaker 1: that he has spread, including one that claims Joe Biden
22:32
Speaker 1: killed SEAL Team 6 to cover up the reality that
22:35
Speaker 1: Osama bin Laden was never shot. And it was a
22:38
Speaker 1: body double, which is wild. but it was something that
22:42
Speaker 1: he pushed out there. What is the story behind that one?
22:46
Speaker 4: So this one is very, very strange and weird. And
22:52
Speaker 4: it's worth noting right away that Rob O'Neill, the SEAL
22:57
Speaker 4: Team 6 member who claimed to have shot bin Laden,
23:02
Speaker 4: he's credited with killing bin Laden on that raid. He was,
23:06
Speaker 4: and he's also a big, fan of Donald Trump, but
23:11
Speaker 4: even he was like, whoa, bro, can you kind of
23:15
Speaker 4: back this off a little bit and push back on
23:17
Speaker 4: this theory? It goes back to the SEAL Team 6
23:21
Speaker 4: raid on Osama bin Laden. This happened in 2011. The
23:25
Speaker 4: SEALs went into Pakistan. They raided bin Laden's house. They
23:30
Speaker 4: killed him and they took his body back. They got
23:35
Speaker 4: a ton of intelligence for it. It was a very
23:38
Speaker 4: successful operation by all kinds of measures. Soon after that,
23:46
Speaker 4: I'd say maybe within months or so, there was a
23:51
Speaker 4: helicopter crash in Afghanistan. And a large number, unfortunately, of
24:00
Speaker 4: Navy SEALs were in that crash. And this helicopter call
24:04
Speaker 4: sign was extortion 17. And the theory that of extortion
24:11
Speaker 4: 17 going down was that these were seals that were
24:15
Speaker 4: involved in the bin laden raid and in order to
24:19
Speaker 4: you know keep them silent to make sure that you
24:22
Speaker 4: know and nothing nothing about the bin laden raid that
24:26
Speaker 4: the government didn't want getting out obama killed them made
24:30
Speaker 4: the made that made the helicopter crash somehow and that
24:35
Speaker 4: it was a cover-up of the of the bin laden
24:38
Speaker 4: raid And now we see that this is sort of
24:41
Speaker 4: refashioned into– well, actually, no. It was the vice president
24:45
Speaker 4: at the time, Joe Biden, and he was the one
24:50
Speaker 4: who set down this helicopter for some reason. And it
24:56
Speaker 4: just doesn't make any sense. And it also makes very
25:03
Speaker 4: little sense if the government is trying to suppress– seals from,
25:09
Speaker 4: you know, revealing the truth. And why is, why is, uh,
25:14
Speaker 4: Rob O'Neill still alive? Why is Matt Bissonette who wrote
25:18
Speaker 4: a book about the entire raid? Two seals have revealed
25:22
Speaker 4: details of this. Um, and yet the government wanted to,
25:26
Speaker 4: you know, uh, take down, take down a helicopter and, and, and,
25:30
Speaker 4: you know, bring down the truth. It's, it's totally ludicrous. Um, and,
25:34
Speaker 4: And really, really unfortunate. The thing about this, these conspiracy
25:39
Speaker 4: theories that people forget is that there are, these were
25:44
Speaker 4: seals that went down in a helicopter crash. There's a pilot,
25:47
Speaker 4: there are pilots in this, in this crash, army pilots.
25:50
Speaker 4: They all have families, you know, they have, they have
25:52
Speaker 4: friends and they're, they, they are now I'm sure affected
25:58
Speaker 4: by this conspiracy theory nonsense that, Um, and you know,
26:04
Speaker 4: whenever there's some kind of new article coming out about
26:07
Speaker 4: the extortion 17 coverup, um, it's, you know, it's, if
26:12
Speaker 4: that were, if that were my loved one that, that
26:14
Speaker 4: was lost, I'd be pretty pissed off by, by this stuff.
26:18
Speaker 4: And it just continues and kind of snowballs and, and,
26:22
Speaker 4: you know, one conspiracy theorist cites the other conspiracy theorist
26:26
Speaker 4: and it kind of, you know, goes on and on.
26:28
Speaker 1: Trump was challenged on this one by Savannah Guthrie during
26:32
Speaker 1: the 2020 election at a town hall.
26:36
Speaker 3: Just this week, you retweeted to your 87 million followers
26:39
Speaker 3: a conspiracy theory that Joe Biden orchestrated to have SEAL
26:43
Speaker 3: Team 6, the Navy SEAL Team 6, killed to cover
26:46
Speaker 3: up the fake death of bin Laden. Now, why would
26:49
Speaker 3: you send a lie like that to your followers?
26:51
Speaker 2: You retweeted it.
26:52
Speaker 4: That was a retweet.
26:53
Speaker 1: That was an opinion of somebody, and that was a retweet.
26:57
Speaker 1: I'll put it out there. People can decide for themselves.
27:00
Speaker 1: How do you think members of the military react when
27:04
Speaker 1: they— see a conspiracy theory like this?
27:07
Speaker 4: Probably like, what the hell? Why are people believing this crap?
27:14
Speaker 4: That would be my initial reaction. Can we teach some
27:19
Speaker 4: more critical thinking skills in school? I look at these
27:22
Speaker 4: kinds of things and I think we are a society
27:29
Speaker 4: with a whole lot of people that are fooled by misinformation, disinformation.
27:37
Speaker 4: And what I fear is nation states using that to
27:44
Speaker 4: their advantage. And I'm talking about China and Russia. That
27:48
Speaker 4: is not a conspiracy theory that these nations do this.
27:52
Speaker 4: They have substantial intelligence apparatuses. They have information warfare specialists,
28:00
Speaker 4: just as we do. And they have budgets that support
28:04
Speaker 4: this stuff. And so if you have a society that's
28:07
Speaker 4: already not even able to discern fact from fiction because
28:14
Speaker 4: you have a former American president throwing fuel on that fire,
28:18
Speaker 4: that's gonna be used to the advantage of China and Russia.
28:25
Speaker 4: And it's not propaganda that's like, so obvious that it's,
28:33
Speaker 4: you know, it's like suddenly you're, you're going to see
28:37
Speaker 4: some message that says like, you know, Vladimir Putin is
28:40
Speaker 4: the greatest leader of all time. It's, it's more about
28:45
Speaker 4: egging these things on and, and sort of adding more
28:50
Speaker 4: fuel to the fire and more BS to actually expand
28:56
Speaker 4: the amount of people who are confused about what the
28:59
Speaker 4: truth is Or just questioning complete reality of what's going on.
29:07
Speaker 4: And there's examples of this stuff in like Jade Helm.
29:12
Speaker 4: There was an operation in Texas, this training exercise in
29:18
Speaker 4: which a huge number of conspiracy theorists started talking about
29:24
Speaker 4: Jade Helm. As, you know, some kind of government takeover,
29:28
Speaker 4: the military was going to take over the entire United
29:31
Speaker 4: States and this training exercise was some kind of cover.
29:34
Speaker 4: Of course, it was bogus and ludicrous, but, that's like
29:39
Speaker 4: our internal conspiracy stuff. Just imagine if that expands, that
29:45
Speaker 4: goes out and you have China sharing this stuff.
29:49
Speaker 1: That actually happened with Jade Helm, right? Jade Helm specifically,
29:52
Speaker 1: didn't Governor Abbott in Texas- put troops, activated troops because
29:58
Speaker 1: of that conspiracy, and China activated bots to gin up
30:03
Speaker 1: more chaos around it because they saw that as a weakness, right?
30:06
Speaker 1: What you're describing is our susceptibility to conspiracies is a
30:11
Speaker 1: legitimate vulnerability to our own national security. I want to
30:15
Speaker 1: pause it right there. I want to talk a little
30:17
Speaker 1: bit more about Jade Helm after the break. We'll be
30:20
Speaker 1: right back. Paul, we were talking a little bit about
30:28
Speaker 1: Jade Helm. Technically, what is it? Jade Helm 15? I
30:33
Speaker 1: don't know.
30:33
Speaker 4: I don't know what number we're on of the times
30:35
Speaker 4: that Jade Helm has led to the collapse of the government.
30:40
Speaker 1: I know sometimes they throw a number on there. It sounds,
30:43
Speaker 1: so much of these conspiracies, they have to sound somewhere
30:45
Speaker 1: between a Bourne Identity movie and... an exotic dancer. If
30:51
Speaker 1: you can get that right there in the middle, then
30:54
Speaker 1: it's going to catch fire. And Jade Helm was one
30:56
Speaker 1: of those, correct?
30:57
Speaker 4: The thing that's crazy about the Jade Helm conspiracy is
31:01
Speaker 4: that you had a whole lot of people who were
31:04
Speaker 4: thinking that this was some kind of government takeover. The
31:06
Speaker 4: military was planning some kind of coup. And the governor
31:12
Speaker 4: of Texas actually had troops from the National Guard activated
31:19
Speaker 4: and kind of keeping an eye on Jade Helm activities,
31:23
Speaker 4: which is, it's just wild to think about that you
31:26
Speaker 4: have straight up BS actually affecting policymakers and moving them
31:35
Speaker 4: to action. This is, this is, I mean, you know,
31:40
Speaker 4: part of it is, is probably, you know, I'd imagine
31:43
Speaker 4: there's some kind of politics at play where the governor is,
31:46
Speaker 4: you know, trying to kind of pretend like he's, you know, uh, he's, he's, uh,
31:51
Speaker 4: he's doing something about this, this problem, but I would
31:56
Speaker 4: really hope instead that you'd say, Hey, this is, this
31:59
Speaker 4: is nutty. This makes no sense. And this isn't happening.
32:01
Speaker 4: And I don't actually waste national guardsmen's time sending them
32:07
Speaker 4: out to, to take care of this. Um, but it's
32:11
Speaker 4: not like outside the realm of possibility to, to think
32:14
Speaker 4: about these types of conspiracies or just simple misinformation, disinformation,
32:21
Speaker 4: the people that are making national security decisions, policy decisions,
32:29
Speaker 4: movements in the military, they're susceptible to this information just
32:34
Speaker 4: like anybody else. And some of them have training on
32:38
Speaker 4: these types of things. Some understand counterintelligence and information warfare. Um,
32:46
Speaker 4: but a lot of them, a lot of them don't,
32:48
Speaker 4: you know, they, they're just like, they're just like every
32:50
Speaker 4: other American, you know, and they, you know, so if,
32:53
Speaker 4: you know, where, where you come from in America, that's,
32:57
Speaker 4: that's your, your neighbors are, some of them are in
33:01
Speaker 4: the military and they're still getting the same information that
33:05
Speaker 4: you're doing on Facebook. You know, they're still looking at
33:07
Speaker 4: it too.
33:07
Speaker 1: Oh no, don't say it. Don't say that. I mean, yeah,
33:10
Speaker 1: you're saying our susceptibility to conspiracies is a vulnerability to
33:14
Speaker 1: at a national security level, especially when people in positions
33:18
Speaker 1: of power buy into this shit, right? Are we handing
33:22
Speaker 1: out stars too easily in the military? I mean, General Flynn,
33:27
Speaker 1: I don't know. General seems like a pretty big position.
33:31
Speaker 1: And General Flynn now, he believes in all the QAnon nonsense.
33:36
Speaker 1: He believes the Democratic Party is all demonic Satan worshipers.
33:41
Speaker 1: This man was a general. And from all the movies
33:43
Speaker 1: I've watched, that's like tip top, if I recall. So
33:48
Speaker 1: what's going on there? Are we not vetting our generals enough?
33:52
Speaker 1: Or is this just what an American general looks like
33:54
Speaker 1: right now? Bat shit crazy.
33:57
Speaker 4: Well, to be fair, he is not the first bat
34:01
Speaker 4: shit crazy general that the U.S. military has ever had.
34:06
Speaker 4: If you look back.
34:07
Speaker 1: Well, is that a problem? I guess, you know what?
34:09
Speaker 1: Is that a problem, too? Because I think that brings
34:10
Speaker 1: up a larger question, right? The military in and of itself,
34:14
Speaker 1: we put the military on a pedestal, and rightfully so.
34:17
Speaker 1: They protect our country and keep us safe. And yet,
34:22
Speaker 1: there's this American ideal of the wild general who goes
34:26
Speaker 1: on in there, Custer, with all of his crazy dogs
34:29
Speaker 1: and what have you. From the beginning, there's stories of
34:31
Speaker 1: generals who let... reality be damned, and that makes them heroes.
34:37
Speaker 1: But is that a myth that is starting to erode
34:39
Speaker 1: and hurt us in modern day warfare?
34:41
Speaker 4: Well, I think it's always a, it's just generally a
34:45
Speaker 4: mistake to put people, you know, high up military leaders,
34:53
Speaker 4: military members in general on a pedestal. You know, we
34:59
Speaker 4: should respect and honor the U.S. military and service members
35:02
Speaker 4: who swear an oath to the constitution and raise their
35:06
Speaker 4: right hand to do so. That is something that most
35:10
Speaker 4: people don't do. And the vast majority of them do
35:16
Speaker 4: so honorably. Then there's people like Michael Flynn who rise
35:22
Speaker 4: up in the ranks and go places up there. And
35:28
Speaker 4: the thing about Flynn is that he was a very
35:31
Speaker 4: widely respected uh, Intel guy. Um, he, he, he's credited with,
35:39
Speaker 4: with really sort of transforming the intelligence world. And, you know,
35:44
Speaker 4: on that sort of reputation, he moved up the ranks
35:47
Speaker 4: and he was, he was eventually part of, or the
35:50
Speaker 4: leader of the defense intelligence agency. It's like the military's
35:54
Speaker 4: version of the CIA. Um, and they, they deal with, uh,
35:58
Speaker 4: you know, gathering intelligence on foreign militaries and, you know,
36:03
Speaker 4: At that point, there's a really famous Washington Post article
36:09
Speaker 4: about Flynn's time at DIA and after. And one of
36:14
Speaker 4: the quotes that I found really fascinating is some of
36:18
Speaker 4: his subordinates started talking about his sharing of what were
36:24
Speaker 4: called Flynn facts, which were basically ideas, crazy sounding ideas
36:31
Speaker 4: that he would put out there and try to get
36:36
Speaker 4: the intelligence to sort of molding to his idea. So
36:40
Speaker 4: for example, he would say something like, like, like, you know,
36:44
Speaker 4: there's definitely like an Iraq connection to this thing, or,
36:49
Speaker 4: you know, the Iranians are behind this or something. And
36:51
Speaker 4: it's like, that's not actually how you're supposed to start
36:55
Speaker 4: with intelligence. You're supposed to like, You don't want to
36:59
Speaker 4: find the bad guy.
37:01
Speaker 1: You're telling me this, one of the architects of the
37:03
Speaker 1: Iraq war, the idea of, oh, there's weapons of mass
37:07
Speaker 1: destruction over here. Let's go invade this country. That's not
37:10
Speaker 1: a good starting point for good, clean intel?
37:13
Speaker 4: You actually want to have a starting point of being
37:18
Speaker 4: open to being wrong.
37:21
Speaker 1: But the military doesn't create that, right? Does the military
37:24
Speaker 1: create those types of, people, it seems like that is
37:28
Speaker 1: a vulnerability in a modern, modern military, right? You were
37:33
Speaker 1: a soldier. Were there any classes on, were there any
37:37
Speaker 1: improv classes about being wrong and saying yes and to
37:40
Speaker 1: any other idea?
37:42
Speaker 4: Yes and no. I, I, I, you know, the thing
37:48
Speaker 4: about that, well, the thing about that article that, you know,
37:51
Speaker 4: really sticks out to me is that You don't rise
37:54
Speaker 4: to this position without other people seeing warning signs along
37:57
Speaker 4: the way. And the thing about the military, it's sometimes
38:05
Speaker 4: it is easier to pass the problem off to someone
38:10
Speaker 4: else than deal with it right now. You know, it's
38:14
Speaker 4: the federal government. And so it's hard to fire somebody,
38:17
Speaker 4: especially hard to get rid of somebody out of the military.
38:21
Speaker 4: And how do you get rid of somebody from the
38:23
Speaker 4: military who's, you know, a little like saying some weird stuff? Like,
38:27
Speaker 4: what is how do you put that in the performance
38:29
Speaker 4: review and justify it? You know, and so he he
38:35
Speaker 4: he and others have have sort of moved up into
38:38
Speaker 4: higher up ranks. And and now we're kind of seeing
38:43
Speaker 4: the consequences of that where, you know, it's not Michael
38:48
Speaker 4: Flynn anymore. you know, it's general Flynn, it's all over
38:53
Speaker 4: his Twitter. It's, you know, he introduced himself so much
38:57
Speaker 4: as general Flynn and, and yeah, I get it. You know,
39:00
Speaker 4: if you're a retired general, sure. You want to, you
39:03
Speaker 4: want to maintain the, you know, the respect and, and,
39:05
Speaker 4: you know, kind of the dignity of that rank, but
39:08
Speaker 4: I'm not walking around, you know, telling everybody I'm Sergeant Zoldra,
39:12
Speaker 4: you know, like it's, it's a, it's a way to,
39:16
Speaker 4: you know, get more legitimacy to your ideas and it's,
39:23
Speaker 4: it's people hear a Lieutenant general, a former Lieutenant general
39:28
Speaker 4: or a former colonel um there are you know there's
39:33
Speaker 4: there's lieutenant colonels out there that are sharing conspiracies that
39:37
Speaker 4: i've found and and people hear these because and they
39:41
Speaker 4: they believe it because he's a general. Why would a
39:44
Speaker 4: general lie to me? You know, generals are very honorable
39:48
Speaker 4: and they tell us the truth and they've been there.
39:51
Speaker 4: He's been in for a really long time. And so,
39:55
Speaker 4: of course, he's telling us the truth about the, you know,
39:58
Speaker 4: the Kraken being released and, you know, the colonel telling
40:03
Speaker 4: us that the Green Berets have found mail-in ballots at
40:07
Speaker 4: some secret facility in Europe that should have gone to Trump.
40:11
Speaker 4: You know, of course that's true because they're a colonel.
40:14
Speaker 1: I think there's a secondary level of stolen valor that
40:18
Speaker 1: exists with folks like Trump who take somebody like a
40:22
Speaker 1: General Flynn and they use his title as a way
40:26
Speaker 1: to bolster their own BS in a way that gives
40:30
Speaker 1: them credibility and just because they're hiding behind the shield
40:33
Speaker 1: of somebody with a title like that. But that's a
40:35
Speaker 1: whole different, that's an editorial I'm working on. I want
40:39
Speaker 1: to talk about some of these real-life examples of theories
40:43
Speaker 1: and ideas that get put into action. I want to
40:45
Speaker 1: talk about the Wolverine Watchmen. They're a splinter group of
40:49
Speaker 1: the Michigan Liberty Militia, and they're the guys who wanted
40:52
Speaker 1: to kidnap Gretchen Whitmer. I want to know a little
40:55
Speaker 1: bit about the story behind them. them and how they
40:59
Speaker 1: plotted to do exactly that?
41:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think the main thing to know
41:04
Speaker 2: with them is that they have been stirred up by
41:08
Speaker 2: this broader milieu that we've been talking about, where conspiracism
41:11
Speaker 2: about a variety of things, but especially about COVID-19 was
41:15
Speaker 2: kind of at the forefront of their motivation. For them,
41:19
Speaker 2: it seems that they really believed that the lockdown efforts
41:23
Speaker 2: in Michigan, and perhaps some that were being discussed nationally,
41:27
Speaker 2: were really interpreted as government tyranny. They felt like it
41:31
Speaker 2: was going to slip into further tyranny, that that was
41:34
Speaker 2: just kind of the beginning of telling citizens what they
41:36
Speaker 2: could and could not do, and seemed to believe that
41:39
Speaker 2: it was their personal responsibility to do something about that.
41:45
Speaker 2: And I think to Paul's earlier point, part of the
41:48
Speaker 2: reason this kind of conspiratorial thinking is damaging to our
41:52
Speaker 2: national security is not just what it can potentially open
41:55
Speaker 2: up internationally, But how it creates divisive content, even among Americans,
42:01
Speaker 2: it's been really interesting to observe the militia movement over
42:05
Speaker 2: a long period of time. Because folks that I was
42:09
Speaker 2: watching in 2008, 2009, 2010, who were very skeptical of
42:13
Speaker 2: some conspiracy theories, who openly laughed at some of them
42:17
Speaker 2: that people kind of assumed were part and parcel of
42:20
Speaker 2: the militia movement. got turned on to more and more
42:24
Speaker 2: of them, especially during Trump's administration, especially as QAnon theories
42:29
Speaker 2: sort of spread across the internet and especially on places
42:32
Speaker 2: like Facebook. And so I think that the idea that
42:36
Speaker 2: some people have special knowledge or special insights into the
42:39
Speaker 2: way the world really works is a major variable creating
42:43
Speaker 2: some of this divisiveness and And potentially creating the ability
42:47
Speaker 2: for some people to get so wrapped up in it
42:49
Speaker 2: that they feel like they have to commit violence to
42:52
Speaker 2: do something to course correct our culture here.
42:55
Speaker 1: I think that's a great point. There's something special about
42:58
Speaker 1: feeling like you have that secret information. And that's something
43:01
Speaker 1: you can sort of build an identity around. It makes
43:04
Speaker 1: you feel like you have a sense of purpose. I
43:06
Speaker 1: guess the time that you've spent with militias, talking to
43:08
Speaker 1: militia members, what is something that people don't understand about
43:11
Speaker 1: the modern militia movement that you noticed?
43:15
Speaker 2: Probably the major thing is that most militia members are
43:21
Speaker 2: average people. Like they're really not social outliers. They have families,
43:25
Speaker 2: they have jobs. Militia activity is something that they care
43:29
Speaker 2: very much about, but they're not necessarily just centering their
43:33
Speaker 2: entire life around it in the way that we sort
43:35
Speaker 2: of stereotypically portray. And I think we have ignored that
43:39
Speaker 2: at our peril because something that I've been trying to
43:43
Speaker 2: get people to understand for a long time is that
43:45
Speaker 2: much of what they believe politically, ideologically, and other ways too,
43:51
Speaker 2: is very similar to what a lot of middle America believes,
43:54
Speaker 2: at least a lot of white middle America. And I
43:56
Speaker 2: think that I kind of anticipated where we would go
44:00
Speaker 2: with the Trump election campaign and beyond in ways that
44:04
Speaker 2: took a lot of people by surprise, because we sort
44:07
Speaker 2: of dismiss militia ideology as fringe, when actually they've just
44:12
Speaker 2: been a little bit louder and more comfortable with it
44:15
Speaker 2: in terms of sort of owning it, really, when it's
44:19
Speaker 2: been something that's been shared among a broader swath of
44:21
Speaker 2: the population really forever.
44:23
Speaker 1: But what do you say to somebody who hears militia
44:25
Speaker 1: and they're like, oh, those are white nationalists, far-right extremists?
44:29
Speaker 1: How do you respond to that? How far off are
44:31
Speaker 1: they with that assessment?
44:32
Speaker 2: You know, those elements do overlap, but I think that
44:35
Speaker 2: that's overly simplistic in a way that makes us downplay
44:38
Speaker 2: what real white nationalism is. makes us kind of miss
44:42
Speaker 2: opportunities for intervention potentially with people who aren't that extreme,
44:47
Speaker 2: people who could potentially be talked out of in some ways,
44:50
Speaker 2: at least. Their conspiratorial thinking and some of that divisiveness
44:54
Speaker 2: as well. If we sort of paint them all with
44:57
Speaker 2: one brush, it is more of a bleak picture than
45:00
Speaker 2: I think what we really have.
45:03
Speaker 1: We're going to take a short break, and when we
45:04
Speaker 1: come back, we'll talk about what's next for military extremism
45:07
Speaker 1: here in the United States. Amy, Groups like the Oath
45:12
Speaker 1: Keepers have been emboldened by extremists in the Republican Party
45:16
Speaker 1: supporting them, but also hit with the realities of court
45:19
Speaker 1: sentences because of their role in January 6th. What's next
45:23
Speaker 1: for groups like the Oath Keepers?
45:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think probably with the Oath Keepers specifically that
45:28
Speaker 2: they are done as we know them. It's kind of
45:32
Speaker 2: interesting because the Oath Keepers have always had a bit
45:34
Speaker 2: of a mixed reputation within the broader militia world. Some
45:39
Speaker 2: people sort of appreciated what Stuart Rhodes and some of
45:41
Speaker 2: the other members were trying to do in terms of
45:44
Speaker 2: prioritizing oaths to civilians, basically. Whereas others thought that Rhodes
45:50
Speaker 2: was too big for his britches and speaking beyond what
45:53
Speaker 2: he was really able to do so based off of
45:56
Speaker 2: his own experiences and based off of how he kind
45:59
Speaker 2: of excluded some other longstanding militia organizations when he was
46:03
Speaker 2: first starting. So personally, I think that the trials and
46:08
Speaker 2: everything that's going to follow from that is going to
46:10
Speaker 2: be pretty devastating to the Oath Keepers as we have
46:13
Speaker 2: known them. But that doesn't mean that the underlying ideology
46:17
Speaker 2: has gone away. Many groups that have previously affiliated as
46:20
Speaker 2: Oath Keepers have just changed their name or taken down
46:24
Speaker 2: their Facebook pages or their other Web sites. And they
46:27
Speaker 2: still very much believe that the election was stolen, that
46:30
Speaker 2: it is their personal responsibility to do something to prevent
46:34
Speaker 2: the next presidential election from being stolen. So I think
46:38
Speaker 2: headed into 2024, we're going to have to be incredibly
46:41
Speaker 2: cautious and keep an eye on the narratives that develop.
46:45
Speaker 2: that as Trump continues his next campaign, as other people
46:49
Speaker 2: sort of try to out-Trump him, we may see other
46:54
Speaker 2: figures even rise to the forefront in terms of their
46:56
Speaker 2: ability to appeal to these groups, to make them feel
46:59
Speaker 2: like their fears are legitimate.
47:01
Speaker 1: Paul, I'm curious how we talk to people In the military,
47:06
Speaker 1: people in citizen militias, you served in the military, you
47:09
Speaker 1: served with white supremacists who had Nazi tattoos. How do
47:14
Speaker 1: you talk to someone like that about their beliefs?
47:18
Speaker 4: I wish I had a good answer for this, but
47:24
Speaker 4: it's terribly difficult. You brought up a point about the
47:30
Speaker 4: Nazi tattoo. I was... I joined the Marine Corps after
47:35
Speaker 4: 9-11 and got to my first unit. And one of
47:41
Speaker 4: my senior Marines was a little bit higher in rank
47:47
Speaker 4: than me. And they were in charge and I was
47:50
Speaker 4: the junior guy. And I didn't know what it was
47:54
Speaker 4: at the time, but he had some kind of like
47:57
Speaker 4: Heil Hitler kind of coded tattoo on on his arm.
48:03
Speaker 4: And having a person like that in your unit is
48:11
Speaker 4: incredibly dangerous. First and foremost, it can sow discord among
48:18
Speaker 4: a close unit. The thing in the Marine Corps that
48:21
Speaker 4: we talk about is esprit de corps, this sense of
48:28
Speaker 4: working together and you're very, very close. And so, uh,
48:35
Speaker 4: and we're also, we're also serving with, uh, you know, black, black,
48:42
Speaker 4: you know, I got black grunts in my platoon. I've got, uh,
48:45
Speaker 4: you know, people from Puerto Rico and Dominican Republic and,
48:48
Speaker 4: you know, Mexico, like it's all every, it's, it's just everybody.
48:52
Speaker 4: It's just a, it's a mixed bag. It's all of America.
48:56
Speaker 4: And you have one, one person who, you know, basically hates, uh,
49:02
Speaker 4: a portion of your platoon, um, it kind of like
49:06
Speaker 4: makes you wonder, like, what are they gonna, are they
49:08
Speaker 4: gonna do the right thing in combat? Will they, will they, uh,
49:13
Speaker 4: will they do, you know, will they, will they protect the,
49:16
Speaker 4: people that are, you know, they, they don't like, um,
49:19
Speaker 4: you know, it's, there's, there's that fear, but, but also it's, it's,
49:24
Speaker 4: it's the fear of, of stealing weapons, uh, stealing ammunition
49:30
Speaker 4: and militias have, uh, done this many times in, in
49:35
Speaker 4: the past. Uh, there's, there's plenty of examples of, of,
49:39
Speaker 4: using military members who are parts of militias or parts
49:45
Speaker 4: of these kind of extremist groups and they basically use
49:50
Speaker 4: their military access to supply them with guns and ammunition.
49:55
Speaker 4: It's also really concerning from an intelligence standpoint to have
50:00
Speaker 4: someone like that whose loyalty is maybe not with 100%
50:09
Speaker 4: with the unit and with the military. When you have
50:12
Speaker 4: this dual loyalty to a militia group or some extremist
50:17
Speaker 4: group outside of the military, it's right for the Defense
50:22
Speaker 4: Department to wonder, what are these people doing? And it's
50:26
Speaker 4: a real problem because once you're inside, you're largely trusted.
50:38
Speaker 4: You know, you've made it through the basic training. You
50:42
Speaker 4: maybe have gone through some kind of security clearance or,
50:46
Speaker 4: you know, but you're trusted. People aren't, you know, skeptical
50:50
Speaker 4: of you or pushing back on you as much as
50:53
Speaker 4: they would a civilian, you know, that's outside of this
50:56
Speaker 4: military sphere. And it's, you know, it's called an insider threat.
51:05
Speaker 4: And the military takes that. takes that very seriously when
51:08
Speaker 4: it comes to like cybersecurity, there's insider threat, uh, you know,
51:12
Speaker 4: software and things like that. Um, but there's not a
51:16
Speaker 4: lot to do for the insider threat for, you know, the, the,
51:19
Speaker 4: the guy like me who's joining the platoon and like,
51:23
Speaker 4: this is my senior Marine. I couldn't, you know, if
51:25
Speaker 4: I knew what that tattoo was at the time, like,
51:27
Speaker 4: how do I report that? What am I supposed to
51:29
Speaker 4: tell people? Like it shouldn't be a hard or difficult
51:33
Speaker 4: decision to get rid of you know, what I think
51:37
Speaker 4: is a scumbag. You know, like, but that's, it's not
51:43
Speaker 4: always that easy.
51:44
Speaker 1: Is the military ripe for conspiratorial thinking? An institution that
51:51
Speaker 1: relies on loyalty, but also blind faith can be hijacked
51:56
Speaker 1: by charisma and power to have people follow. I think
52:02
Speaker 1: the stat was something like 15% of the folks charged
52:04
Speaker 1: on January 6th were a part of the military at
52:08
Speaker 1: some point. Does that number surprise you?
52:10
Speaker 4: Not, not really. I think it goes back to, it
52:14
Speaker 4: goes back to what I said before, which is the
52:17
Speaker 4: military is a reflection of society. They're the people in
52:23
Speaker 4: the military. They're, they're not you know, better or worse
52:29
Speaker 4: than the rest of America.
52:31
Speaker 1: They just have all the guns. Yeah, they just have all.
52:34
Speaker 4: The guns and tanks.
52:35
Speaker 1: They should be better. Shouldn't that be the goal? The
52:39
Speaker 1: people with the tanks and the guns should be better
52:41
Speaker 1: than all of us. They should be smarter. They should
52:44
Speaker 1: have the research, more discipline, more loyal. Dear God, I
52:47
Speaker 1: hope the people with the tanks are better than me.
52:50
Speaker 1: They must be. They have to be.
52:52
Speaker 4: Look, Jordan, you're a dirtbag, so I'm sure they're better
52:54
Speaker 4: than you.
52:55
Speaker 1: Thank you. That makes me feel better. Thank you.
52:59
Speaker 4: But seriously, I think it's they're just like you and I,
53:04
Speaker 4: and they're just as susceptible to this stuff. And I still,
53:09
Speaker 4: I mean, just the other day, I had a friend
53:12
Speaker 4: of mine, you know, sharing something on Instagram, like something
53:17
Speaker 4: about funding for the Ukraine war. and how it's way
53:24
Speaker 4: too much. The Biden administration is wasting all our money
53:28
Speaker 4: and sending $ 90 billion to this war, and he could
53:32
Speaker 4: be spending it elsewhere. And he was sharing it in
53:36
Speaker 4: a positive manner, like, oh my God, this is crazy.
53:39
Speaker 4: And it totally makes sense. If you see that, like, oh,
53:42
Speaker 4: that's screwed up. And I looked at it. It's one
53:45
Speaker 4: of those things, and this happens a lot. It's like,
53:47
Speaker 4: it's too good to check. And a lot of these
53:50
Speaker 4: things are just too good to check. And I looked
53:54
Speaker 4: and I check because I care about this person as
53:58
Speaker 4: I served with. And I looked it up. It took
54:01
Speaker 4: me like basically five seconds to find the Congressional Research
54:06
Speaker 4: Service report, which is a nonpartisan outlet and looking up
54:10
Speaker 4: Ukraine funding. And it's right around 19 billion. It's like
54:14
Speaker 4: a rounding error on the Department of Defense budget. It's
54:17
Speaker 4: like the bang for our buck that we're getting in
54:21
Speaker 4: in security, in.
54:25
Speaker 5: U.S.
54:25
Speaker 4: Security and protecting Americans from a competitor of ours, Russia,
54:30
Speaker 4: that has been a competitor of ours for a very
54:33
Speaker 4: long time and will be a competitor of ours for
54:37
Speaker 4: a very long time, that spending is so small. But
54:44
Speaker 4: looking it up, you know, I'm like, hey, here's the
54:47
Speaker 4: actual thing. And he's like, oh, thank you. You know,
54:50
Speaker 4: but like, Some people, some people I've done that to
54:52
Speaker 4: and they get pissed at me. You know, they they're
54:55
Speaker 4: really mad that I'm not buying in to the conspiracy theory.
54:59
Speaker 4: And it's like it's it's hard to it's really hard
55:05
Speaker 4: to to push back on on on something like this
55:09
Speaker 4: when it's you've bought in so much to the idea
55:16
Speaker 4: that there's some kind of nefarious thing. you're closing off
55:20
Speaker 4: your mind to alternatives. And it's just people, it almost
55:29
Speaker 4: becomes kind of religious.
55:31
Speaker 1: I think you should host some sort of Facebook class
55:35
Speaker 1: because that may be the only positive experience of people
55:40
Speaker 1: pushing back with an alternative point of view that was
55:42
Speaker 1: greeted with a thank you. in any kind of social
55:45
Speaker 1: media medium. Very impressive.
55:48
Speaker 4: It was in the DMs. So I think we're nicer
55:52
Speaker 4: in the DMs. If it's on the comments, I get unfriended.
55:55
Speaker 1: Maybe that's what it is. This is slide into the
55:58
Speaker 1: DMS and give facts. That's what people need to do.
56:00
Speaker 1: It's about time.
56:01
Speaker 4: I actually, I actually do think that that is something
56:06
Speaker 4: we need to do. Um, and more people should do that.
56:11
Speaker 4: You know, it's, it's really, it, it really is like,
56:15
Speaker 4: it is a bit, um, it's, it's, it's, it's a
56:19
Speaker 4: bit of a bummer to see, you know, like just
56:23
Speaker 4: these conspiracies flourish and then, There's nobody that's like saying like,
56:28
Speaker 4: here's the actual reality. And I will try my best
56:34
Speaker 4: if I think I might have a shot at correcting
56:38
Speaker 4: the record for at least one other person. And really
56:42
Speaker 4: that's the point for me. It's like, yeah, you're not
56:48
Speaker 4: gonna impact the entire world. You're not gonna push back
56:51
Speaker 4: on this conspiracy mindset And, you know, just the crazy
56:58
Speaker 4: amount of misinformation, no one person is going to be
57:01
Speaker 4: able to stop that all. But one person can have
57:05
Speaker 4: impact on one other person, you know, like, and that's worthwhile.
57:11
Speaker 2: I was going to say that I agree with that, too.
57:13
Speaker 2: I mean, there's this academic research that talks about this
57:16
Speaker 2: backlash effect, where if we factually correct conspiracy theories, people
57:20
Speaker 2: just kind of dig further into them. And I think
57:22
Speaker 2: that can be true in some circumstances, although I think
57:25
Speaker 2: it's just a little bit too pessimistic for me to
57:27
Speaker 2: believe that must be true always across the board. But
57:31
Speaker 2: if nothing else, especially in sort of those more public forums,
57:34
Speaker 2: when we say, no, here's factual information, here's why the
57:38
Speaker 2: logic of this is wrong. I think at the very least,
57:41
Speaker 2: it can prevent other people from slipping into that kind
57:43
Speaker 2: of thinking as well.
57:44
Speaker 1: That it might be a backstop too. You might not
57:47
Speaker 1: save that person. Leave that man behind. That's a military concept, right?
57:52
Speaker 1: That's a lost cause. That person, too bad. But maybe
57:56
Speaker 1: you can throw something down and they won't come rushing
57:58
Speaker 1: back in. Amy, I want to ask finally what you
58:03
Speaker 1: expect to happen over the next few years with the
58:06
Speaker 1: citizen militia movement.
58:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I always say I wish I had
58:09
Speaker 2: a crystal ball because there are so many variables right
58:11
Speaker 2: now that it's difficult to know for sure what's going
58:14
Speaker 2: to happen. But I expect it's likely that we will
58:18
Speaker 2: have a resurgence once more, not just of militias, but
58:22
Speaker 2: of those groups that we tend to label right wing
58:25
Speaker 2: across the board. headed into the 2024 cycle, because I
58:29
Speaker 2: think that there are multiple political actors who now have
58:34
Speaker 2: learned how to play into the fears of these groups
58:36
Speaker 2: in an instrumental kind of way and who see them
58:39
Speaker 2: as something that they can weaponize for their own benefit.
58:42
Speaker 2: So I expect that we will see pockets of resistance.
58:47
Speaker 2: I don't think we'll see another January 6th. I think
58:49
Speaker 2: this is going to continue to be more about school
58:52
Speaker 2: boards and supposedly like culture war, right? But it's really
58:57
Speaker 2: about sort of who has a voice in culture, who
59:00
Speaker 2: has a voice in politics in a way that will
59:03
Speaker 2: absolutely show up in many of our campaign speeches and
59:07
Speaker 2: what that election cycle is at least framed to be.
59:10
Speaker 2: be about, which I believe they're going to frame it
59:12
Speaker 2: to be more about sort of like the soul of
59:14
Speaker 2: America in a way that's going to be very appealing
59:17
Speaker 2: to a lot of these groups and galvanizing them into action.
59:20
Speaker 1: You hear that, America? The weapon of the future, it's us.
59:25
Speaker 1: We are being weaponized. Our susceptibilities... Our free thinking, we
59:30
Speaker 1: are being weaponized. Well, thank you guys. Thank you to Paul.
59:35
Speaker 1: Thank you to Amy for joining us here today. You're
59:38
Speaker 1: listening to Jordan Klepper, Fingers the Conspiracy. We'll see you
59:40
Speaker 1: next week. Listen to Jordan Klepper, Fingers the Conspiracy from
59:43
Speaker 1: The Daily Show on Apple Podcasts, the iHeartRadio app, or
59:47
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts.