Latest / Who Did What Now With Katie Charlwood / 117. Lady Katherine Grey

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117. Lady Katherine Grey · Who Did What Now With Katie Charlwood

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Speaker 1: You're listening to an Airwave Media podcast. Hello delicious friends,
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Speaker 1: and welcome to Who Did What Now? The history podcast
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Speaker 1: That's not your History class with me, your host Katie Charlewood,
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Speaker 1: History Harlotte and reader all Books. It has taken me
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Speaker 1: five times to try and record this intro because there's
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Speaker 1: a dumbass and a rally car going up and down
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Speaker 1: the road outside my house, so it's not been fun. Also,
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Speaker 1: have you missed me? Yeah, I've been m I A
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Speaker 1: I know for a few weeks. I had a family
0:48
Speaker 1: emergency and the family member at the epicenter of that
0:52
Speaker 1: is very private, so we will not be discussing that
0:54
Speaker 1: at this time. But had to go be a grown
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Speaker 1: up sort out some stuff and resulted in me having
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Speaker 1: to cancel some shows and my Edinburgh trip and the
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Speaker 1: stuff that was going to be happening over there. But
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Speaker 1: everyone has been so kind and gracious because I told them,
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Speaker 1: you know, the actual situation, and everyone has been so
1:14
Speaker 1: lovely and considerate, like John D. Ruddy, who was supposed
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Speaker 1: to be my guest in Letter Kenny the venues that
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Speaker 1: I was going to be working with. Everyone has been
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Speaker 1: just like absolutely delightful and it's just so nice to
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Speaker 1: know that compassion exists out there in the world, and
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Speaker 1: I like to think that that's what we have. Like
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Speaker 1: I might call some people dicks, but we've got compassion,
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Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Yeah, in fairness, people are
1:39
Speaker 1: called dicks. Does it have to be called dix and
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Speaker 1: And it just reminds me of my favorite my favorite
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Speaker 1: like one star review was like she's so unprofessional. She
1:49
Speaker 1: called somebody a dick, and it's like, oh, they wear
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Speaker 1: a dick. Though, I don't know what else you want
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Speaker 1: from me, but yeah, it's it's been it's been a
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Speaker 1: busy couple of weeks and I really wanted to get
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Speaker 1: myself back into recording again. I didn't want to miss anymore.
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Speaker 1: And now that I'm back on track, like my time
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Speaker 1: is freed up a little bit more now, meaning that
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Speaker 1: I can record again. I'm working on the book. I'm
2:14
Speaker 1: going to be looking at book covers. Were like, well,
2:18
Speaker 1: there's mockups of book covers. I'm so excited. You want
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Speaker 1: not be the next I'm so excited. So there's that,
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Speaker 1: Like I haven't been able to work on the book
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Speaker 1: because I've been just like up to my neck to
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Speaker 1: be honest, but I'm like back writing again, and I'm
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Speaker 1: just feeling so much better about the whole thing, you know.
2:37
Speaker 1: And yes, I've got a few more gigs coming up.
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Speaker 1: I'm actually doing an in conversation with with Esmy James,
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Speaker 1: a kinky history. We're going to be down at Hodges
2:47
Speaker 1: and Figures on the twenty seventh. Now that's completely sold out,
2:50
Speaker 1: Like those tickets sold out within twenty four hours, like
2:54
Speaker 1: they were gone, because I like to go share it
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Speaker 1: again and I was like, babe, they're gone, like they're
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Speaker 1: all gone, and it's amazing. I'm so excited. I'm so
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Speaker 1: excited to chat to heart so good and my outfit
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Speaker 1: is so amazing. And so next month September, on the fourteenth,
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Speaker 1: I'm in Cork. I'm in Cochland's Comedy Cockland's Comedy, Cavin.
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Speaker 1: I'm going to be there doing this. What will the
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Speaker 1: topic be? Yes, you're going to have to show up
3:21
Speaker 1: to find out, So that's going to be fun. I
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Speaker 1: don't know if you've ever traveled from doney Goll to Cork,
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Speaker 1: but it's the top of the country to the bottom
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Speaker 1: of the country. I'm hoping I will survive and not
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Speaker 1: be exhausted on the night but I know what you're
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Speaker 1: thinking of that you're thinking, quit your chibber chaba in
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Speaker 1: fact me, in fact you a will. But first we've
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Speaker 1: going to get our source on. And our sources are
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Speaker 1: Lady Jane Gray, A Tudor Mystery by Eric Ives, The
3:58
Speaker 1: Sisters Who Would Be Queen, The Track of Mary, Catherine
4:01
Speaker 1: and Lady Jane Gray by Leander Delisle. A Treasure of
4:07
Speaker 1: Royal Scandals by Michael Farquhar, Elizabeth's women's friends, rivals and
4:13
Speaker 1: foes who shaped the Virgin Queen by Tracy Boorman, The
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Speaker 1: Betrayal of Mary, Queen of Scots, Elizabeth the First and
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Speaker 1: her Greatest Rival by Kate Williams, And of course we
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Speaker 1: have the bullin files and our favorites History dot com
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Speaker 1: and biography dot com. Io siting comfortably good, then let's begin.
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Speaker 1: So I was thinking about chatting with these two ladies
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Speaker 1: for a while. Well, today is going to be one
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Speaker 1: of the systems, and the next episode is going to
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Speaker 1: be another of the systems. Which sisters, you ask, I say,
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Speaker 1: as if you haven't read the title of this podcast already,
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Speaker 1: that would be the Gray Cystels. Now, with the cancelation
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Speaker 1: of my Lady Jane on Amazon. It just seemed like
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Speaker 1: the perfect time because I've been wanting to talk about
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Speaker 1: these and I was going to do it on the
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Speaker 1: Patreon or have it on like the subscriptions, but I
5:14
Speaker 1: was like, no, you know what, y'all have been waiting
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Speaker 1: for so long, Like it doesn't seem fair to just
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Speaker 1: like chuck it away behind a paywall or anything. And
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Speaker 1: so here we are, and you're gonna hear about the
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Speaker 1: Gray systems, this time being Catherine Gray the middle Child.
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Speaker 1: Now I have done an episode on Jane Gray, the
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Speaker 1: Nine Days Queen, who really didn't bloody deserve anything that
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Speaker 1: happened to her. She didn't, she didn't. And I like
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Speaker 1: the idea of historical fiction which actually gives a happy ending,
5:46
Speaker 1: because you know, history for women statistically quite shitty, to
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Speaker 1: be honest. Oh did I even do my disclaimer? Do
5:54
Speaker 1: I even do that anymore? Should I start doing the
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Speaker 1: disclaimer again and just be like she has swell its
6:01
Speaker 1: like a sila? What are you doing? I was like
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Speaker 1: pals to be like, listen, listen exit stage left if
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Speaker 1: you don't like cusswords, But yeah, lady. Catherine Gray was
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Speaker 1: born on the twenty fifth of August fifteen forty at
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Speaker 1: Bradgate Park in England. This is the family home of
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Speaker 1: the Gray family and fifteen forty. For context, she'd probably
6:24
Speaker 1: give you some context. King Henry the Eighth still alive.
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Speaker 1: He's still kicking about this time. He's married to eighteenager
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Speaker 1: And if you're thinking that doesn't sound like a coincidence,
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Speaker 1: you'd be right. So back in the day, in fairness
6:41
Speaker 1: that they still do it nowadays, people get named after
6:43
Speaker 1: other people all the time and it's a way of
6:45
Speaker 1: showing respect to like royals, nobles, celebrities, you know how
6:52
Speaker 1: it is. So back in the truer era, there were
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Speaker 1: so many Henry's because Henry was king, So Henry was king,
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Speaker 1: so many Henry's, and then Katherine of Aragon led to
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Speaker 1: other Catherines being named like Catherine Parr. So when Henry
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Speaker 1: is married to Jane Seymour, Lady Jane Gray is born
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Speaker 1: and she is named Jene, you know, to honor his wife.
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Speaker 1: So then five years later, when Catherine is born, she
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Speaker 1: is named Katherine because he is married to Katherine Howard,
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Speaker 1: who he then you know how, he changes the law
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Speaker 1: about so that he can retroactively kill her for adultery,
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Speaker 1: for treason because line of succession affecting the line of
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Speaker 1: succession before they were together. It's a whole thing anyway.
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Speaker 1: It's not too bad though, because obviously after that there's
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Speaker 1: Katherine Parr, so you know, it's okay that she's called
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Speaker 1: Katherine because like she survives this, it's pretty good. So
7:56
Speaker 1: why are the graces still so important? While their mumm
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Speaker 1: Ansis was one of the daughtles of Henry the Eighth's
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Speaker 1: youngest sister, Mary Tudor. Now he had written as will
8:09
Speaker 1: basically written, now any of Margaret Tudor's like childretten or
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Speaker 1: heirs out of the line of succession because they were
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Speaker 1: in the line of succession for the Scottish throne. So
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Speaker 1: because they were for the Scottish throne, he didn't want them,
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Speaker 1: like I don't know, infiltrating the English crown or whatever,
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Speaker 1: even though like she's his sister anyway, not important, so
8:39
Speaker 1: whole issue there. So they're basically written out of the
8:42
Speaker 1: linus succession, which leads after Edward, who is Henry the
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Speaker 1: Eighth's youngest child but only legitimate child with a penis
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Speaker 1: effectively so he's first in line for the throne. He's
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Speaker 1: seen as legitimate because he's Jane Seymour's son as well,
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Speaker 1: so there was no like messing about there, like that
9:05
Speaker 1: was a marriage. This kid was born. Everything's great golden star.
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Speaker 1: So Edward is first in line, followed by his older
9:13
Speaker 1: sister Mary, and then after that his other older sister Elizabeth,
9:20
Speaker 1: so directly after Henry the eighth like lineage, it's the
9:26
Speaker 1: Gray Sistels. They are the next in line to the throne.
9:29
Speaker 1: So it's basically Edward and then five queens. So you
9:34
Speaker 1: would have well, Mary's not born yet, but you would
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Speaker 1: have Mary Tutor, Elizabeth, Jane Gray, Catherine Gray, Mary Gray.
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Speaker 1: But again Mary's not born yet, so Catherine. She is
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Speaker 1: the middle child, and she is born to Lady Francis
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Speaker 1: Brandon and her husband, the Duke of Suffolk, Henry Gray. Right,
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Speaker 1: So that's them. Now, the three girls, they're not technically
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Speaker 1: I mean, they're royal, but they're not like princesses, but
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Speaker 1: they get treated like their princesses because here's the thing
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Speaker 1: about being a woman who's royal in the past, you're
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Speaker 1: a commodity, you're a bargaining chip. So for a lot
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Speaker 1: of people it was seen as a really good step
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Speaker 1: towards the throne, like you're going up the ladder because
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Speaker 1: you're linked. So marrying one of the Gray sisters puts
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Speaker 1: you so much closer to the throne because you're you know,
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Speaker 1: it's their cousins. You are connected. So growing up, Catherine,
10:44
Speaker 1: like her sisters, is very well taught. She's well read.
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Speaker 1: So they learn like languages. So they're learning Latin obviously
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Speaker 1: because they're Protestant, so they have to you know, well,
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Speaker 1: I say Latin because they're Protestant. Latin for a bunch
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Speaker 1: of reasons, but a little religious stuff, although they were like,
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Speaker 1: let's do it in like English, it's fine, but traditionally
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Speaker 1: Latin prayers. So they were taught Latin and Greek and French.
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Speaker 1: They studied music because in the Tudor court music was
11:17
Speaker 1: it was just part of the deal, like you were
11:19
Speaker 1: expected to be able to play and perform and charm.
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Speaker 1: So they learned about the arts and all that, and
11:28
Speaker 1: of course they had religious education and so that's what
11:31
Speaker 1: they did a lot of the time. And so she
11:33
Speaker 1: grows up being pretty pretty smart. And it's good that
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Speaker 1: she's Protestant because well, at this moment, because Edward's on
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Speaker 1: the throne. Edward is also Protestant, and so he's more
11:48
Speaker 1: likely to lean that way when it comes to the
11:51
Speaker 1: line of succession because all of his advisors, many of
11:56
Speaker 1: whom I think are bloody Seymour's Suddenly Seymour is standing
12:01
Speaker 1: beside you changing your will to benefit him. Yes, So
12:08
Speaker 1: basically they're doing that, and Edward he rules over England, Wales,
12:15
Speaker 1: Ireland a wee bit for about six years, and then
12:18
Speaker 1: when he's fifteen. Oh yeah, he was a boy king,
12:20
Speaker 1: by the way, so he's raised in this very aggressive
12:25
Speaker 1: way where he's an absolute dick like he is. He's
12:29
Speaker 1: such an arsehole, but he's a child, so we can't
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Speaker 1: fully be blamed for that because the people surrounding him
12:33
Speaker 1: and advising him were also arseholes. Shockingly enough, they were
12:38
Speaker 1: men who wanted power for themselves. So when he's fifteen
12:42
Speaker 1: and he becomes incredibly ill, sort of, the rat starts
12:47
Speaker 1: scurrying off the ship and they start scheming and plotting,
12:51
Speaker 1: and they're thinking, like, how are we gonna like infiltrate
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Speaker 1: this and marry off like the Gray Sistels and enter
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Speaker 1: stage left. John Dudley. John Dudley is desperate for power.
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Speaker 1: He's absolutely, Like we've spoken about the Dudley's before. They
13:11
Speaker 1: are just so linked it's ridiculous how many and many
13:15
Speaker 1: just like parts of royal history they like sort of
13:19
Speaker 1: get their little claws into. But he's there and he's thinking,
13:23
Speaker 1: I want to elevate my station. What if I made
13:27
Speaker 1: my son king? Because they're like, we can make it work,
13:31
Speaker 1: like nobody's gonna want a queen on the throne, and
13:34
Speaker 1: so if we marry into the royal line, we can,
13:38
Speaker 1: you know, bist up ourselves a wee bit. And so
13:42
Speaker 1: Dudley decides that he's going to marry his son Guildfield
13:48
Speaker 1: to Jane Gray. So she's fifteen, Jessu same age as
13:55
Speaker 1: Eduld and Catherine, who is twelve this point, and she
14:01
Speaker 1: is married to Henry Lord Helbert, like she's twelve. It's
14:06
Speaker 1: it's still weird. I don't care if you'd be like, oh,
14:09
Speaker 1: it's fine because it's the past. No, this is an
14:12
Speaker 1: unusual situation, like royals are married off for alliances, but
14:18
Speaker 1: they weren't like married and expected to consummate the wedding.
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Speaker 1: That's not a thing, like not at this age. It
14:25
Speaker 1: was seen as untowa right now. Mary, Luckily the third
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Speaker 1: Grace is still she's only eight years old, so she's
14:33
Speaker 1: not involved in this weird marriage scenario. I mean she
14:39
Speaker 1: has betrothed. I should say that to Arthur, Lord Gray
14:42
Speaker 1: of Wilton, who's another cousin. So yeah, this is a
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Speaker 1: child bread wedding for a double child childwide, no child
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Speaker 1: bride wedding. That's not fun for anybody. It's creepy. I
14:55
Speaker 1: don't care what anybody says. And Francis, she throws one
14:59
Speaker 1: hell of a party, of course she does. We will
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Speaker 1: cover Francis at a lather date because she is she
15:05
Speaker 1: is something else, let me tell you. But yeah, it's
15:10
Speaker 1: a massive wedding. Anyone who's anyone is there, like even
15:15
Speaker 1: Edward the sixth, the sick King, is there, like it's
15:20
Speaker 1: the place to be. Now. Unfortunately, not long after that,
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Speaker 1: Edward dies like croaks it, and so the whole succession
15:30
Speaker 1: thing gets thrown up in the air now before he dies, now,
15:34
Speaker 1: before he passes away, like he has changed as well,
15:38
Speaker 1: naming Jane as the air now. At one point there
15:43
Speaker 1: was actually plans to have Jane sort of marry Edward
15:49
Speaker 1: like that was an option that they were trying to
15:51
Speaker 1: push because it just kept kept it together. But also,
15:55
Speaker 1: family tree should not be a wreath. He having to
15:58
Speaker 1: keep your beating myself here, but you're family tree should
16:01
Speaker 1: not be a wreath, like you should not have to
16:04
Speaker 1: twenty three and me before you date. I'm sorry. No no no, no, no,
16:06
Speaker 1: no no no, that's too much. No. So Jane is
16:13
Speaker 1: the Nine Days Queen, and that does not go down well.
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Speaker 1: Mary the first comes in. She has people following her
16:20
Speaker 1: because like a lot of the country, they supported Mary.
16:26
Speaker 1: And they supported Mary because she was seen as like
16:29
Speaker 1: the rightful heir, being the oldest child, legitimate child of
16:34
Speaker 1: Henry the eighth. And people still loved Catherine of Aragon
16:37
Speaker 1: because like she was like a pretty decent, pretty smart,
16:41
Speaker 1: pretty cool queen at the time, and and they remembered this.
16:46
Speaker 1: So a lot of people just for honor sake, supported Mary.
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Speaker 1: So Dudley and Henry Gray and Jane Gray and Guildfuled,
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Speaker 1: they're all they're all chaos, right. Jane Gray didn't really
17:01
Speaker 1: want to be queen. She was forced into the situation.
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Speaker 1: And so yeah, everyone is thrown into jail and eventually
17:08
Speaker 1: everyone is executed, so like all of them, and the
17:13
Speaker 1: thing is, it had to happen because they tried to
17:18
Speaker 1: like restart a rebellion against Mary, like I think Henry
17:21
Speaker 1: Gray and John Diddley did, and so they got the
17:25
Speaker 1: kibosh obviously, and as a result, Jane's fate was sealed
17:31
Speaker 1: because as well, you know, you've got this sectarianism throughout England,
17:37
Speaker 1: and so you've got Catholicism versus Protestantism, and they're just
17:41
Speaker 1: you know, there's just a massive war consistent like sort
17:45
Speaker 1: of bubbling under the surface, and so her existing with
17:49
Speaker 1: people believing she's the rightful heir to the throne and
17:52
Speaker 1: being Protestant very much a big deal. So this has repercussions.
17:59
Speaker 1: You know, there's the jail, there is the execution. Jane
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Speaker 1: Gray is just done. And she's only sixteen. Like she's
18:05
Speaker 1: a fucking child, like me, he's a teenager. She was
18:08
Speaker 1: a child. I don't care what anybody says. It's just horrific.
18:13
Speaker 1: And so the Herbert family they end up annulling the
18:19
Speaker 1: marriage because they don't want to be associated with like
18:23
Speaker 1: the Grays at all. And then and the Wiltons they
18:28
Speaker 1: decide to cancel that betrothal as well. They're like no, no, no, no, no,
18:31
Speaker 1: we don't need that. So at this point, Catherine Gray
18:35
Speaker 1: is fourteen years old, her dad is dead, her sister
18:40
Speaker 1: is dead, she has her mother, and she has her
18:43
Speaker 1: younger sister Mary, So they are pariahs at this point.
18:49
Speaker 1: So no one wants to be associated with the Grays.
18:51
Speaker 1: Nobody wants to be involved in this. And then you've
18:56
Speaker 1: got Mary the First, who could any opportunity just decide
19:02
Speaker 1: to get rid of the Gray Cystels, the remaining Gray Cystels,
19:05
Speaker 1: but instead she invites them to court and they are
19:09
Speaker 1: treated with utmost respect, in dignity. So Francis and her
19:14
Speaker 1: two girls, they're brought to court because she's, like, you
19:16
Speaker 1: weren't involved in this. I think probably because she herself
19:21
Speaker 1: and her mother were subject to Henry's just pure arsehole behavior,
19:27
Speaker 1: that she's more likely to have a bit more leeway
19:30
Speaker 1: when it comes to others. And so Catherine as well,
19:35
Speaker 1: at this point is a potential heir to the throne,
19:38
Speaker 1: even though she's Protestant. And if she were to bear child,
19:43
Speaker 1: I suppose as well, if she hasn't like overtly done anything,
19:48
Speaker 1: having her close by is probably better for Mary, you know,
19:53
Speaker 1: because if Catherine has any kids, you know, they become
19:58
Speaker 1: like a line of descent, which is what people would
20:00
Speaker 1: really want. Like that's the whole point, because Mornache has
20:04
Speaker 1: to live on. But is it compassion? Is it just
20:12
Speaker 1: like trying to keep an eye on them? Whom's to say?
20:16
Speaker 1: But yeah, Mary brings them to court. She overlooks, you know,
20:23
Speaker 1: they're possible connection to any kind of rebellion and that's fine,
20:30
Speaker 1: and so she's like, you can come here. They become
20:33
Speaker 1: sort of mistresses or mistresses ladies of the bedchamber, which
20:38
Speaker 1: is sort of like the highest rank you can get
20:40
Speaker 1: because you get to have like one on one time
20:43
Speaker 1: with the monarch. So if you were sort of a
20:47
Speaker 1: lady or lord of the bedchamber to the king and
20:49
Speaker 1: or queen, like this was like the top of the pyramid.
20:54
Speaker 1: Like this was a very coveted position. And I mentioned
20:57
Speaker 1: this in the George Balliols episode. They this made you
21:01
Speaker 1: one of the more important peoples in the court because
21:05
Speaker 1: you had access where no one else could. And so
21:09
Speaker 1: having the Gray sisters be there, it really elevated their status.
21:15
Speaker 1: And they even had like special places in Mary's coronation,
21:19
Speaker 1: which I think also helped appease the Protestants of of
21:23
Speaker 1: you know, court and of and of the country, because
21:28
Speaker 1: you know she's fine to them. I mean she did
21:30
Speaker 1: all a couple hundred is heretics, but like so did
21:34
Speaker 1: so did like Elizabeth when it came to Catholics. And
21:37
Speaker 1: don't get me started. If Edward was continuing, like if
21:40
Speaker 1: Edward like kept going the way he was going, I
21:44
Speaker 1: think he would have been the bloody one out of everything.
21:47
Speaker 1: But yeah, like Elizabeth, they've got a special place in
21:50
Speaker 1: Mary's coronation, and they are treated like royal princesses when
21:56
Speaker 1: they're at court, like they have their own ladies and
21:59
Speaker 1: wedding that carry their trains and stuff like, they get
22:02
Speaker 1: treated with respect. They have just like a very high
22:07
Speaker 1: status and they end up being guests like the big
22:12
Speaker 1: royal wedding. So when Mary marries Philip of Spain, who
22:17
Speaker 1: is yet another arsehole, I know you're thinking, what a
22:20
Speaker 1: royal man being a prick. Yes, indeed, now they're were
22:24
Speaker 1: roomors as well, that Mary was going to adopt one
22:28
Speaker 1: of the Great Sisters, which again, just like when this
22:31
Speaker 1: rumor goes around Court, I have a feeling France has
22:33
Speaker 1: spread that one personally because she's always trying to elevate
22:36
Speaker 1: a station because she's like a mummager of fifteen hundreds England,
22:43
Speaker 1: and so she's trying to boost them up, and so
22:45
Speaker 1: this kind of made them even more tantalizing, and so
22:49
Speaker 1: it also put their prospects on the marriage mark like
22:52
Speaker 1: so much higher. So during all this speaking of Francis,
23:00
Speaker 1: she marries just like this dude, and I mean just
23:05
Speaker 1: this dude. His name is Adrian Stocks, and his like
23:09
Speaker 1: social like rank is like way way below Hulls, and
23:14
Speaker 1: it's it's almost as if like I think she did
23:18
Speaker 1: it one to protect herself and two or not actually
23:23
Speaker 1: know both to protect herself. I was like, it's all
23:25
Speaker 1: just be protecting herself because if she were to have
23:29
Speaker 1: any more children, because she's Mary Turtle's daughter, like if
23:37
Speaker 1: she was to marry someone high born like her kids
23:40
Speaker 1: would like jump into the Linus succession, especially if she
23:45
Speaker 1: ends up having a boy, right, and so she doesn't
23:49
Speaker 1: need that target. And by marrying someone I mean he's
23:52
Speaker 1: not a commoner. He's just like not as high ranking
23:56
Speaker 1: as she is, and so it's it's much better for her,
24:00
Speaker 1: it's much safer and we'll probably go into into this now.
24:06
Speaker 1: She ends up leaving Royal Court and so that Catherine's
24:09
Speaker 1: supposed to follow her, but Mary keeps her. So she
24:15
Speaker 1: ends up in the care of Anne Seymour. Yes, yes, indeed,
24:21
Speaker 1: the Duchess of Somerset. Now Anne is the widow of
24:27
Speaker 1: the former Lord Protector who for ed of the sixth
24:31
Speaker 1: and and Anne the Guardian. She's supposed to have Catherine
24:36
Speaker 1: under her care, but Catherine's like she's supposed to be
24:38
Speaker 1: setting away, but she's still at court, and she ends
24:44
Speaker 1: up becoming best days with Jane Seymour, who is the
24:49
Speaker 1: niece of the deceased Jane Seymour. So yeah, there you go.
24:55
Speaker 1: So these two become besties at court, like the same age.
24:58
Speaker 1: They end up sharing a bed because it's bloody cold.
25:01
Speaker 1: It's cold, right, you need body heat. That's how it goes.
25:05
Speaker 1: And so they're having a great time. They're teenagers and
25:09
Speaker 1: so they're serving the Queen together, they're hanging out and
25:14
Speaker 1: they're just like having a great time. So these two
25:20
Speaker 1: being connected as well. So because she's related to Jane Seymour,
25:24
Speaker 1: she's not like so closely world, but it's a good
25:28
Speaker 1: connection to have. And Catherine Gray being who she is
25:32
Speaker 1: in the Tudor family wreath, she's pretty important. So those
25:37
Speaker 1: two being connected is very good status wise for both
25:42
Speaker 1: of them and also helps that they both suffered the
25:47
Speaker 1: same sort of way, like they're the same age, they
25:51
Speaker 1: grew up in similar circles. Both their dads were executed
25:56
Speaker 1: for treeson against the crown, you know, just girly things,
26:00
Speaker 1: and like because of their connections, like Jane Gray was
26:05
Speaker 1: like put forward as possible like a prospective wife for Edward,
26:09
Speaker 1: and like so is Jane Seymour. Like they were both
26:12
Speaker 1: put forward as prospective future queens. But then of course
26:17
Speaker 1: Edward dies at fifteen, so that doesn't happen. Now things
26:23
Speaker 1: are going well, they're enjoying times in the Tudor court,
26:27
Speaker 1: and then fifteen fifty eight, flu just starts sweeping through Tudor, England.
26:35
Speaker 1: Influenza is fucking everywhere, right, and so people are fleeing
26:42
Speaker 1: court like they're just heading out to the countryside, out
26:45
Speaker 1: to their manners to try and avoid, you know, the
26:49
Speaker 1: very contagious death. So basically, if you got sick, if
26:54
Speaker 1: you had any of the symptoms at court, like you're
26:56
Speaker 1: being sent home because they don't want to like spread
26:58
Speaker 1: it about. And so and Seymour, she gets sick and
27:01
Speaker 1: she gets sent home. Now, when she gets sent back
27:05
Speaker 1: to Hamworth, which is like the family family house, who
27:09
Speaker 1: comes with her but her absolute best day, Catherine Gray.
27:13
Speaker 1: So she's allowed to go with her to keep her
27:15
Speaker 1: company because they're like, maybe good spirits will keep her
27:18
Speaker 1: from the cold, icy hands of death, and what do
27:22
Speaker 1: you know it did? Now, Well, they're there, and they're
27:27
Speaker 1: over in ham with who does Catherine meet but Jane's
27:33
Speaker 1: brother Edward. Yes also called Edward. A lot of the
27:38
Speaker 1: names repeat, lads, a lot of the names repeat, So
27:41
Speaker 1: Edward who's known as Ned, and she'll be called Ned
27:43
Speaker 1: for the remainder of this story. He's nineteen, he's tall, dark, handsome,
27:50
Speaker 1: and Catherine Gray allegedly, I mean she's only like seventeen
27:54
Speaker 1: at this point, but allegedly absolutely stunning. So she's got
27:58
Speaker 1: the tudor heir. So it's like and wavy and gorgeous
28:03
Speaker 1: and like piercing blue eyes and pale skin, like she's
28:06
Speaker 1: just like gorgeous, stunning, fabulous. Now, like every single Seymour Man,
28:14
Speaker 1: he's a bit of a dick. Ned is arrogant and yeah,
28:19
Speaker 1: apparently people were like cool with that or whatever, and yeah,
28:25
Speaker 1: but apparently Catherine was into it and being the super
28:28
Speaker 1: col best day that Jane s Whitmer was. She's passing
28:31
Speaker 1: notes like secret correspondence to each other because here's the thing.
28:38
Speaker 1: Who Catherine marries is really really important, and how that
28:42
Speaker 1: will affect Mary is also hugely important because if Catherine
28:48
Speaker 1: gets pregnant and has children again, they become heirs to
28:53
Speaker 1: the throne. Big deal, super big deal. And so she
28:59
Speaker 1: has to permission from you know, whoever is on the throne,
29:04
Speaker 1: you know, to who she can get married to. And
29:07
Speaker 1: because again the Seymours are so connected to you know,
29:11
Speaker 1: the royals and nobility and everything else, like this would
29:15
Speaker 1: be an incredibly important match and and yeah, it would be,
29:20
Speaker 1: It would be, and it would cause it would cause
29:22
Speaker 1: a bit of a commotion. And these two fall in
29:25
Speaker 1: love the way that two holly teenagers do. So they
29:29
Speaker 1: are in love, and again Chaine's sort of sneaky weekly
29:33
Speaker 1: about it. But then Jane's mum, she finds out about
29:37
Speaker 1: this whole scenario and she's like, you have to you
29:41
Speaker 1: have to stop this because those two being together is
29:47
Speaker 1: just it's a target on the back for the family.
29:50
Speaker 1: Like without Mary's permission and acceptance, this is not good,
29:54
Speaker 1: and so she tries to put a stop to it. Now,
29:59
Speaker 1: the where is this like theory that ned is like
30:03
Speaker 1: after sort of the power and connection that one would
30:06
Speaker 1: have like sort of marrying a Gray sister, especially how
30:10
Speaker 1: connected she is like to Lenus succession and to the
30:13
Speaker 1: throne and the whole sort of court. But like if
30:18
Speaker 1: you wanted to do that, he would be he would
30:21
Speaker 1: be better like sort of raising his standing with Mary
30:24
Speaker 1: and sort of getting permission and doing it publicly and
30:27
Speaker 1: doing the full courting scenario. So then it could be
30:30
Speaker 1: like legit Like you want legitimized, you want that support.
30:34
Speaker 1: But they're being like sneaky teenagers. But Anne, who's obviously
30:40
Speaker 1: Catherine's guardian as well, is like, we need to stop this.
30:44
Speaker 1: Like I've seen a lot of relatives, you know, lose
30:47
Speaker 1: the heads not metaphorically, well also metaphorically, but also quite literally.
30:53
Speaker 1: So could we maybe not wrap me up any treason
30:57
Speaker 1: his plot? Please, thank you and you're welcome. Now, when
31:01
Speaker 1: it seems like the sort of influenza panic is easing down,
31:06
Speaker 1: sort of, Jane Seymour and Catherine Gray they are brought
31:11
Speaker 1: back to court, and this is where things start getting
31:16
Speaker 1: a bit more difficult for the middle Gray sister, and
31:21
Speaker 1: I think this is the perfect time to take away,
31:24
Speaker 1: pause and get a message from our sponsors, and we
31:34
Speaker 1: are back. So Catherine Gray has been having this sort
31:40
Speaker 1: of romance, this teenage hormone fueled romance with Ned Edward
31:48
Speaker 1: Seymour and Jane Seymour, the niece of deceased Queen Jane Seymour.
31:54
Speaker 1: She has been acting as we go between passing correspondents
31:58
Speaker 1: yeada YadA, now Jane and Ned's mum Anne. She's trying
32:03
Speaker 1: to put a stop to, you know, being murdered for treason,
32:08
Speaker 1: and so she tries to end the romance and they'll
32:11
Speaker 1: end up back at court now when they were tartant,
32:16
Speaker 1: because you know, influenza has been everywhere. Is that Mary
32:20
Speaker 1: the first She's also managed to contract the flu during
32:26
Speaker 1: this epidemic, because of course she does, and so her
32:30
Speaker 1: health has always been kind of dodgy anyway, partially for
32:34
Speaker 1: religious reasons, partially because I think she was suffering from depression. Also,
32:39
Speaker 1: a lot of the Tudor women they had sort of
32:43
Speaker 1: i'm gonna call it reproductive issues because they would suffer
32:47
Speaker 1: sort of tumors and issues regarding the women that I
32:52
Speaker 1: probably would have been better if they were studied. But
32:54
Speaker 1: you know, men in history didn't think that women's health
32:57
Speaker 1: was important. Good thing. Things are different now anyway, So
33:04
Speaker 1: maybe the first she's got chronic health issues at this point.
33:07
Speaker 1: So there have been the false pregnancies. I think what
33:12
Speaker 1: was it they thought they was exists at one point,
33:15
Speaker 1: tumors in another and she was having phantom pregnancies, which yeah,
33:20
Speaker 1: but she also had this habit of starving herself for
33:25
Speaker 1: Jesus or whatever, and that's not a good good way
33:29
Speaker 1: to stay alive. Like, uh, inter manifesting is good for you.
33:34
Speaker 1: I don't give a fuck. No, I don't want to
33:36
Speaker 1: be hungry. Now. She was so ill that it didn't
33:40
Speaker 1: really come up. The opportunity for like Ned and Catherine
33:44
Speaker 1: to be like, hey, we would like to be betrothed,
33:48
Speaker 1: thank you, can we get permission? Didn't really have that
33:52
Speaker 1: option and so yeah, unfortunately before they get the chance
33:57
Speaker 1: to ask, Mary dies. So when Queen Mary the First
34:02
Speaker 1: passes away in November, Catherine has like a massively important job.
34:07
Speaker 1: So she's one of the ladies in waiting who's involved
34:10
Speaker 1: in embalmming Mary, and she has to take turns like
34:15
Speaker 1: guarding the coffin, like they all take turns, like standing
34:19
Speaker 1: around the coffin. I don't know if you happen to
34:22
Speaker 1: see any of sort of the pageantry around the death
34:27
Speaker 1: of Queen Elizabeth the Second, So there was a sort
34:31
Speaker 1: of period of time where all the family members took
34:34
Speaker 1: turns sort of guarding the coffin, and so that's the
34:38
Speaker 1: kind of thing that she would have done. So Catherine
34:42
Speaker 1: was one of the ladies in waiting who guarded the
34:44
Speaker 1: coffin for like the twenty four hours before the funeral,
34:48
Speaker 1: Like that's just like part of the process. So obviously
34:51
Speaker 1: Mary the First she's dead, and so the next in
34:55
Speaker 1: line to the throne is Elizabeth the First. So Elizabeth
35:01
Speaker 1: the First, she's queen, She's on the throne, and that
35:04
Speaker 1: makes the next in line Catherine Gray, which is either
35:09
Speaker 1: a really good position to be in or a really
35:12
Speaker 1: bad position to be in. Now, although they had been
35:19
Speaker 1: promoted by Mary into like this higher position and treated
35:23
Speaker 1: like princesses, treated really well, the reputation still wasn't great
35:27
Speaker 1: because you know, the whole thing of their families trying
35:30
Speaker 1: to ignite her rebellion and usurp for the throne. So ah,
35:34
Speaker 1: that did lose some a few friends, that whole situation,
35:37
Speaker 1: and because you know, the whole putting Jane on the
35:39
Speaker 1: throne situation didn't didn't work out. And Elizabeth, yeah, yeah, wasn't.
35:47
Speaker 1: Wasn't kan on having the Grays as close as Mary did. Like,
35:52
Speaker 1: I don't know if it was more of a hindrance
35:54
Speaker 1: that they were Protestant like Elizabeth was, or whether or
35:57
Speaker 1: whether that was sort of more worry to her because
36:00
Speaker 1: it gave them a more valid sort of right to
36:04
Speaker 1: the throne. Like, You've got a few factors at play here.
36:07
Speaker 1: You've got Jane being seen as a martyr at this point,
36:11
Speaker 1: because you know, people are sort of seeing her as
36:14
Speaker 1: a pawn in this game and they're going to be
36:17
Speaker 1: a bit more aware of it. And so there's that.
36:20
Speaker 1: You've got the fact that Edward had named, you know,
36:24
Speaker 1: the Gray Sisters as the Airs. Jane had also written
36:28
Speaker 1: a letter before she died saying that Catherine was her
36:31
Speaker 1: political and spiritual air, So that is floating about. And
36:36
Speaker 1: then you've got the fact that Elizabeth the first is
36:40
Speaker 1: a paranoid bitch and I love her. I love Queen Elizabeth.
36:44
Speaker 1: She's she's chaos and She's going to be like a
36:47
Speaker 1: two parter episode, I think, because there's so much going
36:50
Speaker 1: on there. She's so messy. I love it. But she's
36:54
Speaker 1: she's pure chaos, and she's paranoid, and she does have
36:56
Speaker 1: every right to be paranoid, and and she's consistently throughout
37:03
Speaker 1: her rain on the fence with a lot of things,
37:05
Speaker 1: and because she wants to protect herself as probably the
37:13
Speaker 1: best thing, because she saw everything that happened before her,
37:16
Speaker 1: and she's not stupid. She was she was raised by
37:20
Speaker 1: sort of Catherine Parr and Anne of Cleaves, like she
37:24
Speaker 1: when she was coronated, like she wore the same clothing,
37:30
Speaker 1: so the same coronation gown as Mary the first, which
37:34
Speaker 1: is just clever because it sort of showed that succession.
37:38
Speaker 1: It was legitimizing like her place, which I thought was very,
37:42
Speaker 1: very clever. But she's also like the third Queen if
37:45
Speaker 1: you include Jane, and they didn't last very long, and
37:51
Speaker 1: she sort of builds upon Mary. But you know, I'm
37:53
Speaker 1: gonna do this with the other day. It's gonna be twoartult,
37:55
Speaker 1: it's gonna be amazing. I'm gonna go deep into that.
37:56
Speaker 1: But she is a paranoid bitch. Absolutely again, has every
38:01
Speaker 1: right to be because people are vying for her to fail,
38:05
Speaker 1: partially because she's a woman, and partially because she's Protestant,
38:10
Speaker 1: and partially because she's Anne Balin's daughter. Like there's a
38:13
Speaker 1: whole situation there. Now. It doesn't also help that Elizabeth
38:18
Speaker 1: is well vain, by the way, like she is, she's
38:23
Speaker 1: very interested in her appearance. She's really fashionable, Like she
38:27
Speaker 1: creates function obviously, but she's really fashionable. She wants to
38:30
Speaker 1: be like beautiful and whatnot. And unfortunately people may or
38:35
Speaker 1: may not have said they did that Catherine was like
38:40
Speaker 1: the younger, prettier version of Elizabeth. Although Elizabeth's only twenty
38:44
Speaker 1: five when she takes the throne, by the way, so
38:46
Speaker 1: it's not as if she's an old maid. But yeah,
38:52
Speaker 1: Catherine was very feminine, like she loved like gowned and embroidery,
38:57
Speaker 1: and she loved being the typical feminine girl. Like she
39:02
Speaker 1: she lived for it, and that's, you know, more power
39:05
Speaker 1: to her for it. So Catherine and Mary Gray, they
39:09
Speaker 1: went from being sort of ladies of the bedchamber to
39:15
Speaker 1: being like downgraded to like the presence chamber, bedchamber, privy chamber. Yeah,
39:22
Speaker 1: so she's like they're like close, and then they're moved
39:24
Speaker 1: down when Elizabeth comes in because she's like, I don't
39:26
Speaker 1: want you near me, right, So she has them moved
39:30
Speaker 1: down so they're less important. And she does this not
39:33
Speaker 1: only to like not have them near her so much,
39:36
Speaker 1: but to show the court that they no longer have
39:40
Speaker 1: that high standing, like she is bringing them down. So
39:45
Speaker 1: at this point as well, Elizabeth the First and Catherine
39:49
Speaker 1: Gray are the two most eligible maidens at court. And
39:55
Speaker 1: the thing is, this is an era where women belong
39:59
Speaker 1: to their husband, so whoever married them would have power,
40:04
Speaker 1: and when they started producing airs like that was going
40:08
Speaker 1: to be the important thing. Now it started to become
40:11
Speaker 1: pretty clear to everybody at court and their granny that
40:16
Speaker 1: Elizabeth the First was in love with Robert Dudley, who
40:22
Speaker 1: just so happened to be married. Unfortunately for her. Now
40:28
Speaker 1: Robert is married, Elizabeth's in love with him, and Elizabeth
40:33
Speaker 1: is not entertaining really like suitles. The funny thing about
40:39
Speaker 1: Robert Dudley, you're thinking, oh, Dudley, that's a name I've heard. Yeah,
40:43
Speaker 1: that's because he's related to John Dudley, the brother of Guildfolds.
40:50
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, that's right, John Dudley was his father, one
40:53
Speaker 1: of the people executed in the rebellion against the Crown. Yeah,
40:59
Speaker 1: so so he's got a free pass. Catherine Gray doesn't
41:03
Speaker 1: have a free pass, so like, yeah, he's he was
41:07
Speaker 1: her brother in law for a while before Jane obviously,
41:11
Speaker 1: you know, got her head chopped off. It's so, yeah,
41:14
Speaker 1: that's her ex brother in law, and Elizabeth's in love
41:18
Speaker 1: with them. So they all kind of grew up sort
41:21
Speaker 1: of in the same sort of I don't see era,
41:25
Speaker 1: but like they were very much from the same pocket,
41:26
Speaker 1: so they would have known each other. Now it gets
41:32
Speaker 1: to the point where Elizabeth's like, I'm not marrying anyone.
41:35
Speaker 1: I am married to England. And everyone's like shit, Like
41:40
Speaker 1: the advisors are stressing out, like the dignitaries are stressing out,
41:43
Speaker 1: Court is stressing out, Like everybody is just freaking the
41:46
Speaker 1: fuck out. Because I love what's gonna happen. Then that's
41:49
Speaker 1: gonna happen, because if she doesn't have any as like,
41:53
Speaker 1: it's gonna jump again. It's gonna be weird, and it's
41:56
Speaker 1: gonna be a whole situation like it was which brought
41:59
Speaker 1: Lady Jane Gray to the throne. And there's gonna be upheaval.
42:02
Speaker 1: They don't want up evil. People don't want up evil.
42:05
Speaker 1: They want a solid society where they're not gonna get
42:09
Speaker 1: you know, executed for treason. And so things get a
42:13
Speaker 1: bit tetchy at court, like in the presence Chamber, Allegedly
42:18
Speaker 1: Catherine does something to like annoy Elizabeth, like I don't know,
42:23
Speaker 1: just like muttering or just looking at her funny, and
42:26
Speaker 1: Elizabeth's just like, no, can't be having that, and it's
42:30
Speaker 1: just like it's enough to make people notice, and like
42:33
Speaker 1: Katherine's complaining to like the Spanish ambassador who like obviously
42:37
Speaker 1: doesn't like Elizabeth because of the whole her mother getting
42:41
Speaker 1: rid of, you know, Catherine of Aragon, and there's like
42:43
Speaker 1: an issue there, you're like deep seeded. And so he
42:50
Speaker 1: starts scheming because Philip spainon Mary's Mary the first widower,
42:58
Speaker 1: like he was trying to court and Mary Elizabeth because
43:02
Speaker 1: he thought that would be an easier sort of grasp
43:04
Speaker 1: to the throne. Also he thought she was younger and
43:07
Speaker 1: hotter than Mary. And then when you bring Catherine Gray,
43:11
Speaker 1: who is younger and hotter still, they're like, wow, what
43:16
Speaker 1: if we married Philip off to the young Gray sister
43:20
Speaker 1: and Philip kid, I don't know, take over England, Like
43:26
Speaker 1: wouldn't that be fun? Now Catherine is she's still like
43:29
Speaker 1: really interested in Ned Seymour, like that's who she's all for.
43:34
Speaker 1: But she tells the Spanish ambassador. He's like, yeah, I
43:36
Speaker 1: totally marry like Philip. Why not? It's totally cool. I
43:40
Speaker 1: don't know if she said it out of like anger
43:43
Speaker 1: or whether she just wanted to fuck with Elizabeth because
43:46
Speaker 1: you know, she's she's a teenager. She's is she a teenager? Well,
43:49
Speaker 1: she's young enough anyway, and she's like mad at the situation,
43:53
Speaker 1: and so he like seriously starts trying to plan out
43:56
Speaker 1: like how to go about this. He's like, how am
43:58
Speaker 1: I gonna like stage a kid and like take her
44:02
Speaker 1: to Spain and then get her to marry like the
44:05
Speaker 1: King of Spain or another like fairly decent novel and
44:08
Speaker 1: we'll have like this really good, strong connection and take
44:10
Speaker 1: over England. Meanwhile, again, Catherine is still like really into Ned,
44:14
Speaker 1: but his mum was just like, no, don't be dealing
44:17
Speaker 1: with her. So he was, you know, blowing it cold,
44:20
Speaker 1: and so maybe maybe she was trying to make him jealous.
44:24
Speaker 1: I love the idea of like I'm gonna make my
44:26
Speaker 1: sort of boyfriend jealous or my ex boyfriend jealous by
44:30
Speaker 1: committing treason, Like I mean, it's an extreme way to
44:36
Speaker 1: do it, but you gotta respect the drip, like you
44:38
Speaker 1: gotta Meanwhile, Also, Elizabeth is just being outrageous because everyone
44:47
Speaker 1: talks about how like she was respected and loved during
44:49
Speaker 1: her time, but people were freaking out all the time
44:51
Speaker 1: about her because they were struggling anyway the fact that
44:54
Speaker 1: she was a queen and not a king, because they're like,
44:59
Speaker 1: how can she wear a crown and rulers She doesn't
45:01
Speaker 1: have a penis, Like it's as if she needed testicles
45:05
Speaker 1: in order in order to like have the wherewithal to rule. Now,
45:10
Speaker 1: not only is she like rolling as a woman, which
45:13
Speaker 1: was enough of a headache for royalty and the common folk,
45:18
Speaker 1: I guess, but she's also like just consistently flirting with
45:27
Speaker 1: Robert Dudley, like the married Robert Dudley. And obviously you
45:31
Speaker 1: can't not flirt with the queen because you know, treason.
45:36
Speaker 1: Like she could like find a way to chop your
45:37
Speaker 1: head off anytime she wanted, probably could, So yeah, she's
45:42
Speaker 1: she's sort of causing a scene, and people don't know
45:46
Speaker 1: like how to go about it because they don't want
45:48
Speaker 1: to go against the queen, but also they don't want
45:52
Speaker 1: to have to deal with the queen, and well, everyone
45:55
Speaker 1: is completely distracted with Elizabeth being Elizabeth. Catherine and Ned
46:01
Speaker 1: take this opportunity to actually spend time together because he's
46:05
Speaker 1: sort of moving in closer tone now, and he ends
46:08
Speaker 1: up heading off to see Francis, her mother, to you know,
46:13
Speaker 1: ask for permission to marry her, and knowing that this
46:16
Speaker 1: is going to strengthen, you know, her sort of link
46:19
Speaker 1: to the crown, France is like absolutely absolutely. Now of course,
46:25
Speaker 1: you know, she's not completely cold hearted, because she goes
46:28
Speaker 1: to Catherine and she's like, do you actually want to
46:29
Speaker 1: marry this strapping young fellow, And she's like, absolutely, yes,
46:33
Speaker 1: I do, and so she decides, well, they decide this
46:39
Speaker 1: is a good idea. Now of course, they do not
46:41
Speaker 1: want to be executed for treason for defying the queen,
46:45
Speaker 1: and so Francis comes up with a plan, and that
46:48
Speaker 1: is to convince sort of higher ups in court, the
46:50
Speaker 1: Privy Council, all that kind of stuff that this is
46:53
Speaker 1: a good match. So you want to get them one side,
46:56
Speaker 1: and so they want to get like numbers behind them,
46:59
Speaker 1: and so they wanted to get this on so that
47:02
Speaker 1: the councilors would be on the side, so that the
47:05
Speaker 1: Queen you know, spoke to her council they'd be like, absolutely,
47:08
Speaker 1: let these kids wed. But Ned, unlike Francis, it's not
47:14
Speaker 1: the most articulate or charming of people. Again, remember how
47:18
Speaker 1: I said he was like an arrogant arsehole. Yeah, yeah,
47:21
Speaker 1: mine worked for Catherine, didn't really work with the councilors.
47:26
Speaker 1: And so he's trying to convince, you know, the counselors
47:30
Speaker 1: and everything that he's good and they're like, hmm, no,
47:36
Speaker 1: they're just not feeling it, you know. And he doesn't
47:38
Speaker 1: have Francis to back him up because a month later
47:42
Speaker 1: she dies and so yeah, Francis doesn't even get a
47:49
Speaker 1: chance to write to Elizabeth to be like, hey, let
47:52
Speaker 1: my daughter get married, love Auntie. Francis like, she doesn't
47:57
Speaker 1: get a chance to do that. So Francis is dead
48:01
Speaker 1: and Katherine and Mary are the chief mourners. Now Elizabeth
48:05
Speaker 1: does pay for the funeral, because you know, sir Auntie,
48:08
Speaker 1: so she pays for it. She forks out for it,
48:10
Speaker 1: and Catherine Gray and Ned Seymour are becoming aware that
48:14
Speaker 1: their their time is running out to get married, and
48:16
Speaker 1: it's kind of worried because he thinks that she's going
48:20
Speaker 1: to leave him for some Spanish royal, because the rumors
48:24
Speaker 1: are swirling that stuff's happening. Because of course it is,
48:27
Speaker 1: because like she wanted to get back at him now
48:29
Speaker 1: after this whole scenario, because Elizabeth is still you know,
48:33
Speaker 1: unwed without children, Like she actually starts mentioning that she
48:38
Speaker 1: might adopt you know, Catherine or Mary, the Gray sisters.
48:43
Speaker 1: Now this is this is, this is something, and it
48:47
Speaker 1: could have been just to like solidify and keep Elizabeth
48:51
Speaker 1: her throne. Seems like she was sort of playing up
48:53
Speaker 1: to it enter stage left of the rest of the
48:56
Speaker 1: Seymour family. So you've got Jane Seymore, you know, her
48:59
Speaker 1: absolute best day. You've got Henry, who is Ned and
49:03
Speaker 1: Jane's brother, and so they start acting as like a
49:07
Speaker 1: little group sort of espionage. They're passing notes back and forth,
49:12
Speaker 1: correspondence through finding ways for Ned and Catherine to have
49:16
Speaker 1: time to get that and like people at court, they're
49:19
Speaker 1: starting of cotton onto this, like they're starting to notice
49:21
Speaker 1: it's happening. But unfortunately Elizabeth like throwing herself all over
49:28
Speaker 1: Robert Dudley so much is like much more of a deal.
49:32
Speaker 1: So they're more focused on that, especially when Lord Dudley's wife,
49:38
Speaker 1: Robert Dudley's wife dies in a suspicious slash, mysterious accident.
49:44
Speaker 1: And this incident, whether it was whether it was planned,
49:50
Speaker 1: whether it was an actual accident or whatever, this meant
49:55
Speaker 1: that no matter what happened, because of that suspicion, because
50:00
Speaker 1: there was a theory that Elizabeth arranged it so that
50:03
Speaker 1: she could marry Robert, and because this whole situation happened,
50:07
Speaker 1: like she was never going to be able to marry Robert.
50:11
Speaker 1: So naturally Elizabeth is pissed about this. Meanwhile, like her
50:16
Speaker 1: chief counselor becomes very aware of the situation between Ned
50:21
Speaker 1: and Catherine and being very aware that this will cause
50:25
Speaker 1: just a huge disruption and could you know, destroy the
50:29
Speaker 1: entire society as a whole and you know, the country,
50:34
Speaker 1: you know, So he convinces Ned to you know, cool
50:38
Speaker 1: things off with Catherine, you know, stop stealing kisses and whatnot,
50:42
Speaker 1: and Ned lissenons for a while and then they say
50:50
Speaker 1: fuck that for a game of soldiers and decide to
50:53
Speaker 1: get married. Anyway, and so they get married without the
50:57
Speaker 1: Queen's permission, which is an awful full idea. So when
51:01
Speaker 1: the whole crew have to go to London and Elizabeth
51:05
Speaker 1: decides she wants to go hunting with Dudley and has
51:07
Speaker 1: to bring her ladies and waiting with her, like Catherine
51:10
Speaker 1: excuses herself by way of toothache because it's the fifteen hundreds,
51:15
Speaker 1: and they're like, please, just don't die of pen and
51:17
Speaker 1: so she says yes because at this point they had
51:20
Speaker 1: introduced sugar, but they had not yet introduced ways to
51:26
Speaker 1: combat that, like buy carb or minty fresh, aqua fresh.
51:31
Speaker 1: You know that they hadn't got Colgate yet. It wasn't happening,
51:34
Speaker 1: and so they're like, go rest and Jen offers Jane
51:39
Speaker 1: Seymour offers to go with her because she's like, I'll
51:41
Speaker 1: look after her and that's fine, So off they go,
51:46
Speaker 1: and so they get to leave because everyone's focused on
51:48
Speaker 1: Elizabeth and Dudley. Now Ned, in a crazy random happenstance,
51:55
Speaker 1: is in the area, and so Ned gives his servants
51:59
Speaker 1: all the day Catherine and Jane. They using subterfuge or
52:05
Speaker 1: what I assume will just be cloaks as they walk
52:08
Speaker 1: so people don't recognize them, so they leave the palace
52:11
Speaker 1: they can sneak out, and they go to Ned's London home. Now,
52:15
Speaker 1: of course he's given the servants the day off, so
52:18
Speaker 1: they're trying to be sneaky sneaky about it. Now, some
52:21
Speaker 1: of the servants are actually leaving as Katherine Gray and
52:24
Speaker 1: Jeane Seymour arrive, so they see this happen and like
52:28
Speaker 1: they're aware of it. And then, in a completely inconspicuous move,
52:32
Speaker 1: Larry Jane Seymour runs out to find a priest, specifically
52:38
Speaker 1: a Protestant priest, and what do you know, she finds one,
52:41
Speaker 1: brings them back to Ned's house, where he marries Katherine
52:46
Speaker 1: Gray and Ned Seymour for the sum of ten pounds,
52:50
Speaker 1: which is like literally thousands, like four and a half
52:55
Speaker 1: thousand pounds in today's money, like roughly about that, Like
52:59
Speaker 1: it's a good chunk of change. Now, Jane, being the
53:04
Speaker 1: decent sister slash best day like, so she has like
53:07
Speaker 1: food and stuff sorted for them. But these are like
53:11
Speaker 1: he's twenty two, Ned's twenty two, Catherine is twenty and
53:16
Speaker 1: and they've been waiting this for a long time, and
53:19
Speaker 1: so they officially consummate their marriage like they are. They
53:23
Speaker 1: are at it, they are shagging away boom boom boom.
53:27
Speaker 1: So obviously Jane leaves them to it. I'm got to
53:30
Speaker 1: hope she left them to it. Now, allegedly she left
53:33
Speaker 1: them to it, because I don't think she needed to
53:35
Speaker 1: watch that. I wouldn't suggest that these two secretly married.
53:40
Speaker 1: They have to go back to court and do their thing. Now.
53:42
Speaker 1: They don't get to spend like a full evening, deal,
53:45
Speaker 1: like a full night because people would notice. But then
53:49
Speaker 1: people start noticing, like the way the two of them
53:52
Speaker 1: are with each other now, Jane is still like passing
53:54
Speaker 1: on messages back and forth, being sneaky snaky. But again,
53:58
Speaker 1: like the head counselor, he's aware that some shit is
54:01
Speaker 1: going down, and so he sends Ned away to Europe.
54:04
Speaker 1: He's like, you need to go away for a while.
54:07
Speaker 1: Off you go. And this is what things start to
54:09
Speaker 1: get a bit sticky. So Ned is being sent on
54:12
Speaker 1: this extended trip to Europe just to get him out
54:14
Speaker 1: of court. Catherine, as it turns out, is pregnant, and
54:19
Speaker 1: then Jane Seymour, the only witness to their wedding, dies
54:24
Speaker 1: of tuberculosis in fifteen sixty and like she's only nineteen
54:28
Speaker 1: at this point, like she's so young. Now he ends
54:33
Speaker 1: up writing this letter basically saying sort of will if
54:36
Speaker 1: you will, basically saying, if anything happens to me, please
54:39
Speaker 1: know I am married to lady Catherine Gray. And then
54:43
Speaker 1: he bugles off to Europe anyway, Right, So, now imagine
54:47
Speaker 1: being Catherine at this point. She must have been shit
54:49
Speaker 1: scaled because there she is, her best friend is dead,
54:55
Speaker 1: she's secretly married, and she's pregnant in the fifteen hundreds, Like,
55:00
Speaker 1: this is not this is not a good time for her. Now.
55:04
Speaker 1: Of course, she does her best to like hide the
55:06
Speaker 1: pregnancy for a while, but of course she's not going
55:09
Speaker 1: to be able to hide this pregnancy forever. And so
55:12
Speaker 1: she's writing letters to Ned, basically trying to tell him
55:14
Speaker 1: to come back and you know, don't leave her to
55:16
Speaker 1: deal with us all on her own. Now, he doesn't
55:18
Speaker 1: get the letters. We don't know why or how, but
55:21
Speaker 1: he doesn't get the letters, and so she so of
55:23
Speaker 1: course Catherine is panicking. She can't go hold of Ned.
55:27
Speaker 1: She's pregnant, and she's thinking, you know, so many members
55:32
Speaker 1: of her family were executed for treason and she is
55:36
Speaker 1: pregnant with treason probably not a good place for her
55:39
Speaker 1: to be, and so she's thinking, what if I get
55:40
Speaker 1: married to someone else, And so she ends up writing
55:44
Speaker 1: to Henry Lord Herbert, you know, the guy that she
55:47
Speaker 1: was married to before their wedding was annulled, and so
55:52
Speaker 1: they start like courting and whatnot, but then he realizes
55:55
Speaker 1: that she's pregnant and he calls it off because you know,
55:58
Speaker 1: he doesn't want to be involved in that. And then
56:02
Speaker 1: get to the point where she is eight months pregnant,
56:08
Speaker 1: cannot really hide the bump, this lovely lady lump at
56:12
Speaker 1: this point, and so she's hoping that she can use
56:14
Speaker 1: a buffer, you know, someone that can talk to Elizabeth
56:17
Speaker 1: on her behalf and you know, maybe ease into it
56:20
Speaker 1: and not have her, you know, executed for treason. And
56:23
Speaker 1: so she ends up chatting to one of the women
56:26
Speaker 1: of the Privy Chamber, who then breaks down in tears
56:29
Speaker 1: because she's like, you've made me an accessory to treason.
56:34
Speaker 1: And so the very next day everyone knows Catherine Gray
56:38
Speaker 1: is pregnant or Catherine Catherine Seymour I suppose at this
56:43
Speaker 1: point is pregnant, and Catherine is very aware of this,
56:47
Speaker 1: and so she's like, Okay, this buffer didn't work. Why
56:49
Speaker 1: don't I try Robert Dudley because he's he was my
56:53
Speaker 1: brother in law, like Elizabeth is so per fond of him. Now,
56:58
Speaker 1: Robert wasn't too happy with Catherine at the best of
57:01
Speaker 1: times because he held a grudge against the Gray family
57:04
Speaker 1: because he felt like they had, you know, tainted his
57:08
Speaker 1: family's reputation, even though even though it was his family
57:12
Speaker 1: that we're pulling the strings. That's not the point. It's
57:14
Speaker 1: not the point. But he's got a chip in his
57:15
Speaker 1: shoulder and he probably thought he could use it to
57:18
Speaker 1: his advantage. So, because if Catherine is pregnant, she has
57:21
Speaker 1: the next heir, and so if he speaks to Elizabeth
57:25
Speaker 1: in tells her this news, she will want to marry
57:28
Speaker 1: him and have the next heir. Lest we forget Elizabeth
57:34
Speaker 1: the first not a chill girl. Uh, she is loved.
57:39
Speaker 1: So Catherine did not get her permission to marry anyone.
57:44
Speaker 1: So she's well offended she might be carrying the next heir.
57:48
Speaker 1: So she's just paranoid at this point because the baby
57:53
Speaker 1: and Catherine's belly because of Ned's lineage and Catherine's lineage,
57:58
Speaker 1: like the claim to the throne would be so strong,
58:02
Speaker 1: like it would it could sort of incite people to
58:08
Speaker 1: remove Elizabeth from the throne, and she was not about that.
58:14
Speaker 1: So she does the only reasonable thing, which is have
58:18
Speaker 1: Catherine locked in the Terror of London. She gets Ned
58:21
Speaker 1: brought back from Europe so she can lock him up
58:24
Speaker 1: to now Ned just is like I didn't get any letters,
58:28
Speaker 1: and he kept trying like not to come back, so
58:30
Speaker 1: he didn't want to be, you know, convicted of treason.
58:33
Speaker 1: And Catherine, who is ready to pop at this point,
58:38
Speaker 1: is being interrogated in the Terror of London and they're
58:41
Speaker 1: just trying to get her to like implicate people in
58:43
Speaker 1: this big political scheme when it's just a twenty year
58:47
Speaker 1: old fell in love and got married, like because of
58:51
Speaker 1: the circles that she's in, you know, her her pickings
58:54
Speaker 1: are very particular, and the idea that this is just chance.
59:00
Speaker 1: She wasn't like trying to like usurp the throne, Like yeah, people,
59:05
Speaker 1: we weren't buying it. So he eventually comes back and
59:09
Speaker 1: he goes to visit Catherine just figure out what they're
59:12
Speaker 1: going to do, because if their marriage is deemed legitimate,
59:16
Speaker 1: then the baby's legitimate. Everything sort of. I mean it's
59:19
Speaker 1: not good because they've created, you know, an air to
59:23
Speaker 1: the throne, which is which is not great because Elizabeth
59:27
Speaker 1: is well mad. But if their marriage isn't legitimate, then
59:32
Speaker 1: the baby is a bastard. It's born out of wedlock,
59:34
Speaker 1: and those two are like guilty of illegal shagging effectively,
59:40
Speaker 1: so it's not super either way. Then, of course, Catherine
59:46
Speaker 1: gives birth in the Tower of London, and she gives
59:51
Speaker 1: birth to a boy, so there was finally a Protestant
59:56
Speaker 1: heir to the English throne. Like this is just a massive,
1:00:02
Speaker 1: massive deal. And she names him Edward sort of after
1:00:06
Speaker 1: his father and after the previous king. So Edward is
1:00:12
Speaker 1: the next and he's the next male heir, so he's
1:00:14
Speaker 1: the next one on line because he's a man effectively,
1:00:17
Speaker 1: or because he's male. And so baby Edward is baptized
1:00:24
Speaker 1: like basically in the same place so many members of
1:00:29
Speaker 1: his family were executed. Like that's that's a weird start
1:00:33
Speaker 1: for anybody. Well, I mean, I say air, like, he's
1:00:36
Speaker 1: not legitimate yet, so it's a it's a bit of
1:00:38
Speaker 1: a wibbly wobbly thing. But people are freaking the fuck out.
1:00:42
Speaker 1: And so while she's in the Tower of London. She
1:00:44
Speaker 1: ends up getting like pets. He's got like dogs and
1:00:47
Speaker 1: monkeys and stuff, and she's the resting with the baby
1:00:51
Speaker 1: and the people who are sort of looking after her
1:00:55
Speaker 1: or you know the jailer's quote unquote like they take
1:00:59
Speaker 1: pity on her because you know, she's just had a
1:01:00
Speaker 1: kid and stuff. And Ned is in like the same
1:01:04
Speaker 1: building but not in the same quarters. Eventually they let
1:01:09
Speaker 1: them share their quarters again. Now, eventually the two of
1:01:12
Speaker 1: them spend time together and they are like boinking again,
1:01:17
Speaker 1: and what do you know it, Catherine becomes pregnant again,
1:01:20
Speaker 1: because of course she does, because this is this is
1:01:22
Speaker 1: her story. Now back in the Tutor era, like the
1:01:27
Speaker 1: only the only thing you needed to prove that your
1:01:29
Speaker 1: marriage was like legit, I mean, if you didn't have
1:01:32
Speaker 1: your witnesses, well, was to prove that you had like
1:01:34
Speaker 1: stated it openly in front of the witnesses, which Ned
1:01:38
Speaker 1: and Catherine said they did. Like this is this is why,
1:01:43
Speaker 1: like you could technically have sex before marriage in sort
1:01:46
Speaker 1: of the Tutor era if you were betrothed because the
1:01:50
Speaker 1: rest of its paperwork. Yeah, so Catherine gives birth to
1:01:56
Speaker 1: another boy, Thomas Seymour. Now it doesn't matter about Edward.
1:02:02
Speaker 1: Edward could be deemed as illegitimate. But because of everything
1:02:08
Speaker 1: else that Ned and Catherine have done since then, because
1:02:10
Speaker 1: they have proclaimed that they want to marry right, this
1:02:13
Speaker 1: baby is definitely legitimate. And so this is just a
1:02:17
Speaker 1: massive headache for Elizabeth of us. But like public opinion
1:02:21
Speaker 1: was siding with sort of Catherine and Ned and all
1:02:26
Speaker 1: the issues with Elizabeth. People were like, eh, no, Like,
1:02:30
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a really good story. They fell in love,
1:02:33
Speaker 1: they were in the tower, They've got kids, like, it's
1:02:35
Speaker 1: a big thing. And so she can't like declare Thomas illegitimate.
1:02:40
Speaker 1: So she does the only thing she can, which is
1:02:43
Speaker 1: she brings Ned like to court. She puts someone trail.
1:02:48
Speaker 1: I shit, you not seducing a virgin of blood royal,
1:02:55
Speaker 1: like seducing a virgin of the blood royal. And they're
1:03:00
Speaker 1: this whole conspiracy charge and he has charged fifteen thousand pounds,
1:03:07
Speaker 1: which is just too much in today's money, just too much,
1:03:10
Speaker 1: Like you wouldn't have been able to pay this. And
1:03:13
Speaker 1: then it starts coming up to the tenure anniversary of
1:03:16
Speaker 1: the execution of Lady Jane Gray, which is not good
1:03:20
Speaker 1: for Elizabeth's a sort of public standing. Then the plague
1:03:27
Speaker 1: hits England, because of course it does. It's in London,
1:03:30
Speaker 1: and she is freaking out. Katherine is freaking out and
1:03:34
Speaker 1: she wants to be saved and go away from it.
1:03:37
Speaker 1: And so she has people like Beg Elizabeth on her
1:03:40
Speaker 1: behalf and she goes, yeah, sure you can totally leave,
1:03:44
Speaker 1: but you only get to take Thomas with you. Like
1:03:46
Speaker 1: she separates her from her oldest son and her husband.
1:03:49
Speaker 1: So Edward and Ned go and stay with Anne Seymour,
1:03:53
Speaker 1: Ned's mum, and Catherine is sent to live with her uncle.
1:03:57
Speaker 1: Now Catherine is like, she's not long had a baby,
1:04:01
Speaker 1: she's sad, she's upset, she's had her house arrest away
1:04:05
Speaker 1: from her husband, and so she writes a letter to
1:04:07
Speaker 1: the Queen hoping that the way you reunited, and Queen
1:04:10
Speaker 1: Elizabeth unsurprisingly said no. Now the uncle that she was
1:04:14
Speaker 1: under house arrest with under I guess he starts like
1:04:19
Speaker 1: a plot to try and name Catherine is the heir,
1:04:23
Speaker 1: which she's not interested in. She wants to be with
1:04:25
Speaker 1: her husband and have her babies and just do that
1:04:28
Speaker 1: right now. He gets caught, unsurprisingly, and then he gets
1:04:32
Speaker 1: executed for treason, and so Catherine and Thomas get moved again. Meanwhile,
1:04:39
Speaker 1: Elizabeth's dealing with the whole Mary Queen of scott situation,
1:04:42
Speaker 1: so she's like doing all this stuff to Katherine Gray,
1:04:45
Speaker 1: and she's doing this stuff to Mary, Queen of Scott's.
1:04:48
Speaker 1: Then you know the mysterious death of Lord Darnley another episode.
1:04:52
Speaker 1: Listen to it. It's very interesting and more chaousinsius and
1:04:57
Speaker 1: Elizabeth the first is getting more in or paranoid, and
1:05:01
Speaker 1: so Catherine, she just keeps getting moved from house to house,
1:05:06
Speaker 1: and when she gets moved to like the fifth house
1:05:10
Speaker 1: in what seven years, they're told just to not communicate
1:05:13
Speaker 1: with her at all. And then when her new jailor
1:05:17
Speaker 1: I suppose, caes her for the first time, he's like
1:05:20
Speaker 1: so shocked because she's so pale and thin. Because all
1:05:25
Speaker 1: these people are trying to make like Catherine Gray the
1:05:27
Speaker 1: figurehead of like these rebellions against Elizabeth, and she just
1:05:31
Speaker 1: doesn't want to be a part of it. And I
1:05:34
Speaker 1: guess the point where she's just so depressed. She's just
1:05:38
Speaker 1: constantly being moved around and she ends up effectively starving herself.
1:05:45
Speaker 1: And then on the twenty sixth of January fifteen sixty eight,
1:05:50
Speaker 1: A doctor has called for and he's brought to Catherine Gray,
1:05:53
Speaker 1: and she is she is not long for this world.
1:05:59
Speaker 1: And on her her deathbed she requests, she pleads that
1:06:04
Speaker 1: the queen will be good to her sons Thomas and Edward,
1:06:08
Speaker 1: and to her husband Ned, and then she asked that
1:06:11
Speaker 1: tokens would be returned to Ned upon her death, one
1:06:15
Speaker 1: of them being their ring from their patrothal. And so
1:06:20
Speaker 1: Catherine Gray passed away at the age of twenty eight.
1:06:26
Speaker 1: Now her youngest son, Thomas was four, Edward was six,
1:06:32
Speaker 1: and they survived her Now, in order to downplay Catherine's importance,
1:06:36
Speaker 1: instead of being buried at Westminster Abbey like her other
1:06:39
Speaker 1: royal relatives, she was entelled in Oxford just to kind
1:06:44
Speaker 1: of sort of play it down. But she did have
1:06:50
Speaker 1: like a proper, proper funeral, Like they still had the embalming,
1:06:56
Speaker 1: there was, you know, the vigil there was like the
1:07:01
Speaker 1: mourners guarding before the burial, like the whole thing. Now,
1:07:06
Speaker 1: Catherine Gray's descendants they trickle down to Queen Elizabeth, the
1:07:13
Speaker 1: Queen Mother, so like that line of succession technically, technically,
1:07:19
Speaker 1: if you want to be like, oh about it, like
1:07:23
Speaker 1: technically her descendants like ended up on the throne because
1:07:27
Speaker 1: now like obviously queen mother, the queen, now the king.
1:07:31
Speaker 1: Who knows who will be next? Oh we know he'll
1:07:33
Speaker 1: be next, It'll be the next king. But yeah, they've
1:07:37
Speaker 1: now ended up on the throne. And so endo the
1:07:40
Speaker 1: story of Lady Catherine Gray. If you liked my retelling
1:07:45
Speaker 1: all of this tale, I feel free to rate in
1:07:46
Speaker 1: review of five stars, or if you just feel like
1:07:48
Speaker 1: pitying me, also rating review of five stars. You can
1:07:51
Speaker 1: catch me on the socials if you like message me
1:07:55
Speaker 1: on threads. I tend to like respond. Do not send
1:07:59
Speaker 1: me videos on it Instagram unless I know you, because
1:08:01
Speaker 1: I won't watch the reels unless I know what it's about.
1:08:04
Speaker 1: I won't do it. I just want and yeah, I
1:08:07
Speaker 1: think that's everything. I'm so glad to be recording again.
1:08:12
Speaker 1: And it's a good one. We're like an hour in,
1:08:13
Speaker 1: like we did, we did well today. I guess it's
1:08:17
Speaker 1: a recommendation time. So obviously I am going to recommend
1:08:21
Speaker 1: for reading Kinky History by Esmie Louise James, because of
1:08:27
Speaker 1: course I am. Of course I am. This is a
1:08:29
Speaker 1: women's supporting women household. That's what we do for watching
1:08:33
Speaker 1: just go watch My Lady Jane. You may as well
1:08:35
Speaker 1: go watch it like Amazon listen. They like to fuck
1:08:41
Speaker 1: with us. Okay, just watch the show, enjoy it, and
1:08:43
Speaker 1: if it's not your thing, that's also fine. That's also fine.
1:08:47
Speaker 1: And for listening. So this is actually really funny. This week,
1:08:52
Speaker 1: I've been listening to two things specifically, one of which
1:08:57
Speaker 1: is this stupendium sort of the Fall in London sort
1:09:03
Speaker 1: of musical and the Adequate Wordsmith sort of song. So
1:09:08
Speaker 1: I've been listening to that and also the Hamilton soundtrack,
1:09:14
Speaker 1: specifically those songs with Divvy Diggs. We're having a main role.
1:09:18
Speaker 1: That just seems to be what my ears need to
1:09:22
Speaker 1: scratch at this point. And so that is everything this week.
1:09:26
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening. I'm glad to be
1:09:28
Speaker 1: back and I'll be chatting to you again very very soon.
1:09:33
Speaker 1: Adios avoids in my friends, Bye bye