Latest / IMI Podcasts / #29: "It's Always Easier to Blame the Foreigners for Your Problems" - Nuri Katz

Transcript

#29: "It's Always Easier to Blame the Foreigners for Your Problems" - Nuri Katz · IMI Podcasts

0:02
SPEAKER_01: Ladies and gentlemen, it's 7pm in Dubai, 3 p.m.
0:06
SPEAKER_01: in Lisbon, 11am in St.
0:07
SPEAKER_01: Kitts.
0:08
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to a new episode of the Mobility Standard, the podcast where we detect current events, trends, and crucial questions related to investment migration.
0:18
SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Christian Nisheim, editor of IMI, and in this episode, I had the pleasure of hosting Nouri Katz of Apex Capital Partners.
0:28
SPEAKER_01: We spoke about where the EU's paranoia around CBI programs comes from, why certain industry participants' marketing methods perpetuate misconceptions about the industry, why governments blame foreign investors for problems they themselves cause, why the EU's call for expanded visa suspension powers could actually be a good thing for Caribbean CIPs, why St.
0:54
SPEAKER_01: Kitts and Nevis has held on to Russian applicants' money for 18 months, and why Nouri thinks the industry needs a new regulatory body that includes all practitioners.
1:07
SPEAKER_01: All of that and a great deal more in today's episode of the Mobility Standard.
1:13
SPEAKER_01: Before we start, I'd like to tell you that if you haven't already signed up for a pro membership, you really should consider it simply because it'll help you make more money as an investment migration professional.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: With a pro membership, you'll get your very own profile in IMI where clients can contact you directly, and you'll have full access to our data center, our private briefings, and all our reports.
1:36
SPEAKER_01: With the preambles out of the way, let's get this show on the road.
1:44
SPEAKER_01: Nuri, I've been sent a lot of stories by you, by David Lesprons, by other people over the last few weeks in the wake of this Dominica story in The Guardian.
1:57
SPEAKER_01: Stories about various terrorists, actual terrorists who have bombed embassies residing inside the EU, often receiving public benefits.
2:11
SPEAKER_01: Now, these people typically enter Europe either illegally or as asylum seekers, but you know, I'm a bit surprised at this because from reading the news, I was under the impression that terrorists and money launderers preferred to enter Europe by first paying a six-figure amount and then going through months of due diligence to get Caribbean passports.
2:32
SPEAKER_01: And here are these news stories now telling me that actually these terrorists are just waltzing in on foot into Europe without even documenting their source of funds.
2:43
SPEAKER_01: So can you clear up the confusion as to how terrorists actually get into Europe?
3:08
SPEAKER_00: I'll tell you a funny story that happened to me a bunch of years ago that that also sort of shows the paranoia.
3:16
SPEAKER_00: I was uh approached by uh an official of the American government years ago when when Antigua still had visa-free access to Canada.
3:27
SPEAKER_00: And she said to me that the the CIP is a danger to America.
3:33
SPEAKER_00: And I said, Well, how could it be a danger to America?
3:36
SPEAKER_00: Every person who applies for CIP, if they want to go to America, they have to go through your visa application process, and you get to do the same due diligence on them as you would do on anyone.
3:49
SPEAKER_00: And we know that your due diligence isn't so great.
3:52
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you let you you let in a bunch of terrorists, you gave them visas, and you even allowed them to take flying lessons, and then they bombed the Twin Towers.
4:02
SPEAKER_00: So I I know that that's an issue for you guys, but maybe you need to work on that.
4:07
SPEAKER_00: And she said, Well, actually, the danger is that potentially a a terrorist could get citizenship in in Antigua and then fly to Canada and then swim over the Great Lakes into the United States and and do something.
4:28
SPEAKER_00: And I thought that was that was pretty funny that that at the time also the prices were so much higher.
4:35
SPEAKER_00: I said to really you think somebody would pay$400,000, submit themselves to what is probably the best due diligence known to man, multiple layers of due diligence, including due diligence with with Interpol and Europol and and a private due diligence company that's like private detectives who go to people's houses to check if they really live where they're supposed to be living.
5:03
SPEAKER_01: It's really far-fetched to consider these people a security threat.
5:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it's pretty funny, actually.
5:09
SPEAKER_00: I I kind of I I I just laughed at her.
5:11
SPEAKER_00: I couldn't really it was very hard to respond.
5:15
SPEAKER_00: I I think the the major problem is that the governments in Europe or the uh it's actually the European Parliament are they're having a knee-jerk reaction to the idea of selling passports.
5:35
SPEAKER_00: I think in in many ways, part of the problem is is on the industry, on on company like ours, in that the way that these programs are promoted, it sounds as if we are going around the world and handing out passports out of suitcases to anybody who requests some.
5:59
SPEAKER_00: So in a in a way, we need we're we're very much to blame ourselves.
6:04
SPEAKER_01: And we need to regulate what are you talking about specifically when you when you say you know the way that it's marketed makes like makes it sound like we're just handing out passports.
6:14
SPEAKER_01: What is what does that mean in practice?
6:16
SPEAKER_00: Well, as you know, the the uh the industry is not very highly regulated, especially the industry of unregulated agents and even the the marketing agents who are kind of known to the countries, but these are agents who who don't have to submit themselves to any kind of serious regulation.
6:44
SPEAKER_00: They're not they're not the way that they present themselves and present the product is gives people the feeling that we're just selling passports.
6:57
SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you look on YouTube, you find all sorts of funny people, you know, I call them talking heads, who who uh who have pictures of passports going out the door and and they talk about how easy it is to get these things, and and and that's our fault.
7:16
SPEAKER_00: We need regulation.
7:17
SPEAKER_00: And unfortunately, there is no regulatory body that that controls the the industry as a whole.
7:25
SPEAKER_00: So on the one hand, you know, the fact that we're showing passports and that we're selling passports when actually we are not in any way, shape, or form selling passports.
7:38
SPEAKER_00: If we're selling anything, which we can argue about whether or not we're selling or awarding, what we're helping people do, at least you know, companies like mine that are regulated by the countries, is we're helping people apply for citizenship like uh an immigration lawyer would do in the United States or in Canada.
7:59
SPEAKER_01: So maybe the issue is at at its core, maybe the issue is that we don't have a different symbol for citizenship other than the passport.
8:09
SPEAKER_01: The passport is a manifestation, it's a travel document you get for being a citizen.
8:13
SPEAKER_01: Correct.
8:14
SPEAKER_01: But in in people's heads, I mean, there is no physical thing called citizenship.
8:18
SPEAKER_01: There's no tangible thing called citizenship.
8:21
SPEAKER_00: Well, there is.
8:21
SPEAKER_00: There's a citizenship certificate.
8:24
SPEAKER_01: Right.
8:24
SPEAKER_01: That that's it.
8:25
SPEAKER_01: But that's just a that's just a paper.
8:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:28
SPEAKER_00: But w you'll see on the internet uh um you know people's just saying, uh, hi, I'm in the business of selling passports.
8:36
unknown: Right.
8:36
SPEAKER_00: Well, that that obviously makes European European politicians nervous because they just don't exactly understand what this whole thing is about.
8:50
SPEAKER_00: They they when when you see on YouTube somebody saying, hi, my business is selling passports, then obviously it it it it becomes a really sexy topic for people to be, for politicians to be against.
9:08
SPEAKER_00: I mean, if we take if we even take a look at at what has gone on over the last year in Portugal, Portugal is having all sorts of financial problems, economic problems that they're trying to deal with.
9:20
SPEAKER_00: And it's always, always easier to blame the foreigners for your own problems.
9:26
SPEAKER_00: And Portugal blamed the foreigners who were coming and investing in in Portugal and creating a huge amount of employment and helping raise the GDP and just donating and helping the economy, they were blamed for a rise in in uh residential real estate prices when for years there that hasn't been the case in any way.
9:55
SPEAKER_00: And the the government of Portugal uh just kept blaming and blaming the foreigners when actually I I believe they knew what they were doing, that they were just being populist, which is why they haven't canceled the program.
10:11
SPEAKER_00: They know that they need the money, they know that the money is important, the in the foreign direct investment is important for them, but yet it's easy to blame the foreigners.
10:20
SPEAKER_00: And it's the same thing with with the CIPs.
10:22
SPEAKER_00: It's easy to blame the foreigners, they're getting these passports, but the the proof is in the pudding, as they say.
10:30
SPEAKER_00: Proof is that uh just today, actually, I I saw somebody sent me another article from the OCCRP, I think the journalist organization, that talked about some of the bad people that have received citizenship.
10:49
SPEAKER_00: And the first thing that I noticed was it's always the same people over and over again.
10:54
SPEAKER_00: It's the same four or five people that they talk about all the time.
10:59
SPEAKER_00: Out of the 80,000 citizenships that they talk about, it's always the same people.
11:04
SPEAKER_00: And and with all of them, there's always a well, there's there's a suspicion, there's a they they they haven't really gotten in trouble, but they could have gotten in trouble these people.
11:18
SPEAKER_00: There's nobody who's like in jail, was accused and convicted of a crime, who had a uh St.
11:26
SPEAKER_00: Kitts citizenship, or had it actually before he got it, because what what I can admit and and I I think is a weakness of of all programs is that due diligence has a very big weakness.
11:40
SPEAKER_00: There's no question about it.
11:41
SPEAKER_00: The weakness is that it can only look into the past, it can't look into the future.
11:46
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
11:47
SPEAKER_00: And I I have the same weakness.
11:49
SPEAKER_00: I I can't see into the future.
11:50
SPEAKER_01: It's an affliction that uh that many of us suffer from.
11:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, unfortunately.
11:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:56
SPEAKER_00: We'd all be a lot better off if we could see the future.
11:59
SPEAKER_01: But I I you know, we did the uh I did a I did a social media post after reading The Guardian, their story that that came from the OCCRP.
12:08
SPEAKER_01: So they did months of investigations, they went to local public libraries in Dominica to check who had gotten citizenship.
12:16
SPEAKER_01: And in the end, they they found out it was you know, tens of thousands of people have received citizenship, and they highlighted five or six names.
12:27
SPEAKER_01: One of them had a conviction before getting citizenship in Dominica.
12:33
SPEAKER_01: So that was an oversight.
12:34
SPEAKER_01: And the others were people who you know had scary sounding backgrounds but had never been convicted of anything.
12:43
SPEAKER_01: Of course.
12:44
SPEAKER_01: That was it in in a pool of tens of thousands.
12:47
SPEAKER_00: Well, also they they the those same journalists were complaining that they actually had to go to Dominica to look at the government gazette instead of somehow the government sending them this information.
13:00
SPEAKER_00: But the government gazette is available and is uh uh and is very transparent, but it's available in Dominica where it's supposed to be available, like it is available in the Library of Congress that has the government gazettes in there as well.
13:16
SPEAKER_00: And so I guess they were upset that they actually had to take a plane and they had to fly there and go look at this stuff, instead of the stuff being miraculously found on their on their desk.
13:30
SPEAKER_00: But in in today's thing that I that I saw, uh a person was mentioned there who a Russian, well, he he actually is a person who gave up his Russian citizenship.
13:42
SPEAKER_00: He's Armenian, he's ethnically Armenian, who I know personally, the the he wasn't my client in this, but he uh uh his last name is Vardenyan.
13:54
SPEAKER_00: He's a very famous person.
13:56
SPEAKER_00: He's I guess they they would have called him a the Russian oligarch.
14:01
SPEAKER_00: But the truth about him is is incredibly interesting.
14:05
SPEAKER_00: He he he started an investment company with a bunch of Americans in the early 90s, American lawyers, and and and he built up an incredible business, which he eventually sold and then kept working in the finance business.
14:22
SPEAKER_00: But he started it in a basement somewhere and and built a really, really amazing business that was trading with all the major banks in the in the world.
14:32
SPEAKER_00: And about a year ago, he gave up his um his Russian citizenship and became was invited to come back to Armenia because he's an incredibly talented person.
14:46
SPEAKER_00: And he he came back and he was appointed as the head of Nagorno-Karabach.
14:50
SPEAKER_00: If you if you know the the and a few weeks ago, he was basically hijacked by the Azerbaijani government, and he's now languishing away in jail as a hostage of the Azerbaijanian government.
15:09
SPEAKER_00: And we don't know what's going to happen to him.
15:12
SPEAKER_00: But this is a person who's been who's traveled to America hundreds of times and to Europe hundreds of times, worked with all the top, top, top finance organizations, has gone through all sorts of due diligence stuff, and and the fact that anybody would have anything against him other than the fact that he has money.
15:36
SPEAKER_00: And that's also a problem that the European the bureaucrats have.
15:41
SPEAKER_00: They don't, they, they, in their essence, they don't like the fact that rich people can buy things.
15:50
SPEAKER_01: Right.
15:50
SPEAKER_01: I always I always yeah, they don't, you know, if it were up to them, we would not have business class flights.
15:58
SPEAKER_00: Right.
15:58
SPEAKER_00: They just hate well we would, but only they would be allowed to fly business class flights.
16:04
SPEAKER_01: Some are more equal, right?
16:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
16:07
SPEAKER_00: Having lived in in the Soviet Union for a little while, I I I know what you're talking about.
16:13
SPEAKER_00: But I I think it's just a paranoia.
16:16
SPEAKER_00: Now, to be clear, also, I think the CIP countries haven't really been defending themselves exactly correctly.
16:26
SPEAKER_00: They uh mostly out of fear, which I I understand they're they're hanging on, their their economy is hanging on by a thread all the time.
16:36
SPEAKER_00: And so it's very hard for them to know exactly where to go, and they don't want to upset Europe in in any way.
16:46
SPEAKER_00: But they could easily know uh each country of of the in the Caribbean has a bilateral agreement with with the European Union for visa-free travel.
17:00
SPEAKER_00: And in the in each agreement, in there is a paragraph six which calls for the each country and the European Union to create a technical committee of representatives of the European Union and of Antigua and St.
17:23
SPEAKER_00: Kitts and whatever different committees, because again it's bilateral agreements to discuss issues related to the visa-free agreement.
17:33
SPEAKER_00: And uh unfortunately, these committees, even though these agreements have been in place for more than 10 years, or quite, you know, with St.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: Kitts, it was 2009, so 14 years, have never been created.
17:47
SPEAKER_00: They haven't been speaking for the last 14 years about the visa-free agreement.
17:52
SPEAKER_00: As a matter of fact, if you remember in the last report that came out just a few days ago by the European Union, for the first time they mentioned that paragraph six.
18:03
SPEAKER_00: Now, I I've I've known about it.
18:05
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so before you talk about this, just so the audience understand what we're talking about, and this is something you mentioned that we might talk about, the most recent announcement from the European Commission is that they're asking the European Parliament to give them essentially expanded powers to exclude from visa-free travel to Schengen the countries that operate CBI programs.
18:28
SPEAKER_01: So technically, what's happening is that there's something called the visa suspension mechanism.
18:33
SPEAKER_01: And there are very specific criteria that must be met for a country to lose visa-free access to Schengen.
18:42
SPEAKER_01: And among those are, for example, a sudden 50% increase in uh visa rejections, uh sudden increase in asylum seekers from undesirable countries, etc.
18:54
SPEAKER_01: And there haven't been any sudden increases like that.
18:56
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the Caribbean countries are not triggering any of the existing criteria for getting their visa-free access suspended.
19:06
SPEAKER_01: And so the European Commission is saying let us all give us the power to also suspend people on the basis, suspend countries on the basis of operating a citizenship by investment program.
19:19
SPEAKER_01: That's what they're asking for.
19:20
SPEAKER_01: Just I wanted to give context to the audience.
19:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, I actually that that made me more optimistic, in all honesty, by because they also called to trigger this this chapter six in that report, if you remember.
19:35
SPEAKER_00: And I'm I'm really hoping that cooler heads will prevail and that if the governments of the Caribbean will put together a committee of people who know the issues involved and are not really new to this, but are involved in this for many years, I and and as a matter of fact, I'm I'm hoping that they'll include some of companies like ours or people like ours.
20:08
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm I'm an Antiguan citizen and a petition and whatever, and I I I think I'm very, very well aware of the history and all that.
20:16
SPEAKER_00: I I believe that if we sit down with the European Commission and make the points of, well, look at your criteria and tell us, has anything ever been, other than the fact that we have the program, have any of the other criteria been met for visa suspension?
20:40
SPEAKER_00: And i I I would hope that it would put them into a position where the light bulb may go on and they'll understand that that it just has never happened.
20:50
SPEAKER_00: I I don't know if anybody has overstayed a visa who who was with a Caribbean passport, but I doubt it.
21:00
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure it's happened, I'm sure it's happened, but but but but not to the extent that it would become a systemic problem.
21:08
SPEAKER_01: But the I want to push back against what you just said, Nuri, because the presumption.
21:14
SPEAKER_01: So you're saying okay, if they can be in a room together and people from both sides understand, you know, put together people from both sides who understand the subject matter and can talk in a calm, dispassionate way about you know what the problems are, whether the Caribbean due diligence on CBI is good enough, and if it's not good enough, what needs to change, etc.
21:40
SPEAKER_01: If you can have that kind of practical solutions oriented conversation, then you know maybe maybe this doesn't have to be a problem anymore.
21:51
SPEAKER_01: But baked into what you're saying is the presumption that the EU is acting in good faith, that they are actually Concerned about the security risks of citizenship behind investment.
22:04
SPEAKER_01: Whereas I would think that it you know it seems to me that it doesn't matter how much due diligence you do, it doesn't matter if you have a higher price on the citizenship.
22:15
SPEAKER_01: They are against it from an ideological point of view.
22:20
SPEAKER_01: And so they might use claims of national security, inadequate due diligence, etc., as a pretext for saying these programs have to close.
22:33
SPEAKER_01: But it's not really about the security, it's not really about inadequate due diligence.
22:37
SPEAKER_01: It's about them being philosophically antithetical to the fact that you can buy citizenship.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: Well, I uh I'll I'll push back a little bit about that.
22:50
SPEAKER_00: I while I agree, I as I said, I think that just don't like the fact that rich people can buy things.
22:57
SPEAKER_00: But if you look in detail as to what they've been saying, they've been saying different things about the CIP programs in Europe and the CIP programs outside of Europe.
23:10
SPEAKER_00: And they've even categorized them in different ways.
23:12
SPEAKER_00: They've categorized them in as the European CIPs, the CIPs of countries that are going to be potentially joining the European Union, and then the third country CIPs.
23:28
SPEAKER_00: And if we see if we look at what's going on between the European Union and Malta, they are talking about philosophy.
23:35
SPEAKER_00: And the the philosophy of, first of all, the selling citizenship to people to Europe, essentially.
23:43
SPEAKER_00: And but and and they're they have a philosophical problem with that.
23:48
SPEAKER_00: They when they talk about the CIP in in the Caribbean, they they talk more about the security issues.
24:00
SPEAKER_00: So maybe, and I'm not, I'm not, I don't want to be overly optimistic, but maybe it is that they look at it a little bit differently.
24:10
SPEAKER_00: And that's why I think that if the governments can sit down in a dispassionate way with Europe, there may be a chance to to manage this issue.
24:23
SPEAKER_00: Having said that, I I I know that they they the governments, a few of the governments met with the European Commission a few months ago at the CLAC meeting in in Brussels, and the meeting apparently didn't go very well, and we saw the reaction to that meeting in St.
24:41
SPEAKER_00: Kitts and the changes that they that they made very quickly.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: So but but I again I'm I I think the only chance of of sort of saving the whole situation is by having a serious discussion.
24:58
SPEAKER_00: It's unfortunate that these discussions have not been going on since the beginning.
25:03
SPEAKER_00: These technical committees should have been set up immediately, as soon as they they were created, as soon as the agreements were created.
25:12
SPEAKER_00: And funnily enough, you know, some of the of the visa-free agreements occurred, were signed in 2015 with countries like Dominica, for example, that clearly had the CIP.
25:27
SPEAKER_00: And the government knew that they had the CIP, I mean, the European Union knew that they had the CIP.
25:33
SPEAKER_00: So uh at the time they they did they weren't concerned or they weren't thinking about it.
25:39
SPEAKER_00: But again, I think that it if the governments will be able to show that in the in the 14 years that the that there have been visa-free agreements, there really hasn't been a problem.
25:55
SPEAKER_00: And and that's a long time.
25:57
SPEAKER_00: We we have a good sample, 80,000 apt citizens.
26:01
SPEAKER_00: That's a good sample.
26:02
SPEAKER_00: It's not like one or two.
26:04
SPEAKER_00: It's it's a good sample.
26:05
SPEAKER_00: And if you look at it carefully and you see that maybe there's there's one or two or four or five who have turned out to be bad characters, that sort of proves the rule.
26:19
SPEAKER_01: And in any case, in any case, it's far lower rates of bad apples, as you call them, than in the general population.
26:28
unknown: Right?
26:28
SPEAKER_01: Of course.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: And far lower than in any other category of immigration.
26:33
SPEAKER_00: Of course.
26:34
SPEAKER_01: Including marriage, students, what have you.
26:38
SPEAKER_00: No, and and that's and that's and that's very clear.
26:41
SPEAKER_00: Now, an argument can be made on the part of Europe.
26:44
SPEAKER_00: Well, we don't care, we we don't want any potential issues revolving around security, even if it's one person, it's too one person is too many.
26:55
SPEAKER_01: Oh, but can't have student visas.
26:57
SPEAKER_00: Well, no, that that's that's the Europe taking responsibility, and they don't want to they don't want to hand off responsibility for entering Europe to to other countries.
27:09
SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's sort of part of what they do.
27:12
SPEAKER_00: But the argument to that is you know, look at the last 14 years, there haven't been any problems, and certainly nothing there there hasn't been any problem of in terms of violent anything, nothing, zero, nothing, which is important to to point out.
27:31
SPEAKER_00: But I I think showing oh, the the the other major issue is that what's going to be happening in 2025.
27:43
SPEAKER_00: So we know that we have a group of 80,000 people who potentially, although nothing has ever happened, could be a security risk.
27:53
SPEAKER_00: And and but in 2025, Europe is going to be reviewing every single person who's going to be entering Europe.
28:01
SPEAKER_00: And so Europe will have the opportunity to review, if they're worried, and make a decision as to whether or not to let the person in.
28:10
SPEAKER_00: It just happens to be an online application.
28:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so so what you're arguing then, if I understand correctly, is if we have ETIAS, which is supposed to be introduced in 2025, I mean that that date keeps getting postponed, right?
28:24
SPEAKER_00: But it's a tough thing, it's a tough it's a tough system to create.
28:29
SPEAKER_01: Right.
28:29
SPEAKER_01: But if we had you're saying if we have ETIAS, then why would but there's no real reason to worry about visa-free access for these Caribbean countries?
28:41
SPEAKER_00: You would think.
28:42
SPEAKER_01: But then is there any reason to worry about visa-free access for any country?
28:49
SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't know how many Canadian terrorists are are entering, and would but there's they're worried about Canadians entering um or Americans entering or Brits for that matter.
29:00
SPEAKER_00: You know, I imagine that you have as much worry about Canadians as you would have with Caribbeans.
29:06
SPEAKER_00: Right.
29:07
SPEAKER_00: Canadians can be nasty people, boy.
29:13
SPEAKER_01: This St.
29:14
SPEAKER_01: Kitts story that came out this week, well, it's a group of Russians, Belarusians, and Ukrainians, we should note.
29:23
SPEAKER_01: They've started a petition online because they applied to citizenship in St.
29:29
SPEAKER_01: Kitts and Nevis.
29:31
SPEAKER_01: They gained approvals, they even sent over the funds for the donation.
29:36
SPEAKER_01: And then when St.
29:38
SPEAKER_01: Kits and Nevis later decided to ban those countries from the program, they were told that you know what, you're not getting that citizenship after all.
29:48
SPEAKER_01: And so these people they say, okay, well, then I want my money back.
29:52
SPEAKER_01: But now, 18 months later, they still don't have their money back.
29:57
SPEAKER_00: So what I I the the only way that I can describe that is that it's a tragedy, and and in all honesty, I I really don't understand what why St.
30:11
SPEAKER_00: Kitts has sort of taken this extra step of first discontinuing uh processing of clients who had already applied.
30:23
SPEAKER_00: No other island has done that.
30:26
SPEAKER_01: Contrast it with if you can contrast it with Grenada.
30:29
SPEAKER_00: Well, if I can that's a the the whole Grenada issue is a very interesting issue, in all honesty.
30:36
SPEAKER_00: Grenada is being allowed, with the approval of the United States, to process and to, as a matter of fact, to accept, well, not anymore.
30:48
SPEAKER_00: They were allowed to accept up till March 31st new applications, and they are allowed to process what is what is a lot of applications.
31:00
SPEAKER_00: And it seemingly there there hasn't been any backlash.
31:04
SPEAKER_00: I think it was done with the agreement of the United States.
31:07
SPEAKER_00: Now, why did the United States specifically agree to Grenada being allowed to do this while not allowing the other islands to do it?
31:17
SPEAKER_00: I I can't speak to that.
31:19
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've heard rumors that maybe America feels guilty about the fact that they invaded Grenada in the 80s and they kind of feel like they owe it to Grenada.
31:29
SPEAKER_00: But I think that the government and successive governments of Grenada have shown that, again, the due diligence is is great.
31:40
SPEAKER_00: And and and I think they they must have made the argument about there seems to be a uh in in general a a lack of understanding of what the word sanctions mean.
31:56
SPEAKER_00: The word sanctions doesn't mean that every single Russian human being is a bad person.
32:05
SPEAKER_00: The uh even even according to Western standards and those who who created those those uh sanctions, those sanctions are specifically on specific people.
32:21
SPEAKER_00: And it's about maybe two thousand people, but there's there's another 140 million Russians who are not sanctioned, are not bad people, have no issues traveling or doing business, or or should they?
32:37
SPEAKER_00: They're just human beings.
32:39
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I I often talk about my my mother-in-law who is Russian and lives in a little village in Russia and tends to her little garden and grows uh grows vegetables for the winter in her little garden, and and she certainly isn't a a uh uh a threat to national security of to anybody, and neither are the rest of the 140 million Russian people.
33:06
SPEAKER_00: I so a lot of it is propaganda, but I think in terms of St.
33:09
SPEAKER_00: Kitts, uh they've they've taken this a step too far.
33:15
SPEAKER_00: Now, maybe it's it's because the government is new and and doesn't really understand all the issues.
33:22
SPEAKER_01: But but before you let's explain.
33:25
SPEAKER_01: Can you explain to the audience exactly what happened in St.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: Kitts?
33:29
SPEAKER_01: And then we talk about the why.
33:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:31
SPEAKER_00: Well, what what happened as as far as I understand is that applicants when when the United States started calling up all of these Caribbean countries and saying stop accepting Russians, the agreement with the United States was that they would stop accepting new applicants for and but they would continue processing of the uh of the old applicants.
33:58
SPEAKER_00: In St.
33:59
SPEAKER_00: Kitts, they continued processing and and and awarded citizenship to numerous people.
34:06
SPEAKER_00: But then the government changed in the middle of that.
34:09
SPEAKER_00: And when the government changed, the new government decided to take this a step forward further, which no other government did, and that is they stopped processing the applicants who were already in the in the pipeline, already in the government.
34:27
SPEAKER_00: And there were people who had clients who had made the applications and had not yet been approved, and so that's one class of people who government took their money to do the due diligence and all that and stopped and didn't do what they're supposed to do.
34:46
SPEAKER_00: So that's one problem.
34:48
SPEAKER_00: Then there was a group of clients who had been approved but had gone through the due diligence, had been approved, they're not under sanctions.
34:59
SPEAKER_00: The government requested that they make their investment, literally, asked, said, please make your investment, and then you'll get your citizenship.
35:08
SPEAKER_00: Some of them had made their investment already as well.
35:14
SPEAKER_00: There was a group that had made their investment, and there was a group who, because the government sort of informed agents informally, I mean, they they never they until July of this year, and the the you know the government has made four changes to the program over the last eight months, and in the last change, they they said that that they they believe there's a reasonable fear of of all people from Russia being not, by the way, not only Russian citizens, but people living in Russia, so Americans living in Russia, would be are excluded from applying for citizenship in in St.
35:57
SPEAKER_00: Kitts for reasons of national security.
36:00
SPEAKER_00: But until July of this year, they there was no official statement made.
36:05
SPEAKER_00: There was all very unofficial.
36:07
SPEAKER_00: People just sort of whispered that we're not going to give them the citizenship.
36:12
SPEAKER_00: And they just kept quiet.
36:14
SPEAKER_00: They didn't do anything, and and nobody really knew what was going on, other than informal discussions that made it clear.
36:23
SPEAKER_00: So there, so a group of them have been approved and have not sent their money.
36:28
SPEAKER_00: A group have sent their money, have money has been received by the government, and and uh and so far the government has not yet said what they're going to do.
36:43
SPEAKER_00: All that they have said is as of July that they feel that there's some sort of reasonable re fear of for national security.
36:52
SPEAKER_00: Now, whether or not that is reasonable, and whether or not you can exclude whole countries from applications for citizenship.
36:59
SPEAKER_00: And by the way, they didn't only refuse applications in the CIP, they also refused pe Russians who are applying to become citizens for other reasons.
37:15
SPEAKER_00: For example, if they're married to a catition, or if or if they a Russian citizen was a Russian was born in Russia, or not even a Russian.
37:26
SPEAKER_00: Oh I can give you other examples, but but somebody born in Russia to a catition citizen who by constitution has the right to be registered as a citizen, they're also not for reasons of national security, they're not allowing two-month-old babies to be registered as petitions.
37:49
SPEAKER_00: But but but that's a that's that's a that's a case that we are facing right now, as a matter of fact.
37:55
SPEAKER_00: It's it's and so I I don't get it.
37:59
SPEAKER_00: I don't understand, and the worst thing about it is that the government has yet to come out with any kind of statement as to what they're going to be doing with both the clients who have been approved and certainly the clients who have who have paid their money.
38:18
SPEAKER_00: Everybody who is in the process has paid money to the government, so the government at the least should be giving them back the money.
38:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:25
SPEAKER_01: So set aside for a moment the question of whether it's reasonable or moral to exclude whole nationalities.
38:35
SPEAKER_01: Just exclude individuals based purely on nationality.
38:40
SPEAKER_01: And I mean, you know, you can make an argument one way or another for that.
38:45
SPEAKER_01: But what possible justification could there be for denying a person citizenship and then not sending back the money for you know almost two years now?
38:57
SPEAKER_00: I c I can't justify it, and nobody has tried to justify it.
39:01
SPEAKER_00: I've I've I've heard different things that it that that since nobody there's no law about giving back the money.
39:10
SPEAKER_00: There's nothing in the law that talks about giving back the money, so they don't have a way to do it.
39:15
SPEAKER_00: But obviously, it it's only fair.
39:18
SPEAKER_00: Uh governments can't or shouldn't just take money from people.
39:25
SPEAKER_00: And and this is a lot of money, and and uh another you know, misnomer or misconception about the whole industry is that the people who are applying are insanely rich.
39:39
SPEAKER_00: And for them, this$150,000 or$200,000 is just peanuts.
39:45
SPEAKER_00: It's it's real money, it's serious money.
39:50
SPEAKER_00: You I don't care who you are,$150,000 is a lot of money.
39:56
SPEAKER_00: You could be Rockefeller and it's a lot of money.
39:59
SPEAKER_00: And most of these people are very far from being Rockefeller, which you know, we we can look at the problems of the discounting.
40:06
SPEAKER_00: The discounting that was happening in all these things, in all these countries, was happening because people for them, the$150,000 was a lot.
40:16
SPEAKER_00: Now, I'm I don't want to make any moral or legal judgments about the whole discounting thing, and that's not the issue that we're talking about.
40:23
SPEAKER_00: But these people who have paid their their money and have had it for sitting in in the government being used by the government of St.
40:34
SPEAKER_00: Kitts, having their money being used by the government of St.
40:36
SPEAKER_00: Kitts, for them it's a tragedy.
40:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a catastrophe for them.
40:42
SPEAKER_00: And it I I don't know why the government has not has not faced if they've made a decision, then they should really deal with the hard issues.
40:59
SPEAKER_00: Now there's an issue of how to give back the money, not only legally of how to get give back the money, but technically how to give back the money.
41:08
SPEAKER_00: It is now because of the sanctions, it's very difficult to wire money back to Russia.
41:17
SPEAKER_00: And and certainly there's a lack of understanding in in uh of what sanctions are, as I said before.
41:24
SPEAKER_00: It technically it is possible, but I think there's a lack of understanding as to what these sanctions are, and so the government wouldn't feel comfortable sending money back to Russia.
41:36
SPEAKER_01: Maybe the easiest solution here for St.
41:38
SPEAKER_01: Kitts is simply to f finish processing and approve these citizenships.
41:43
SPEAKER_01: That way they don't have to send the money back.
41:45
SPEAKER_01: If they can talk to the United States Treasury, like Grenada did somehow, to get permission to say, look, the you know, we we're not accepting applications from Russians or Belarusians anymore, but let us at least finish processing the ones we have on file.
42:01
SPEAKER_00: Well, obviously that would be the correct thing to do.
42:05
SPEAKER_00: I wish they would do that.
42:06
SPEAKER_00: I I think there are people in the government who believe that they should do that, but uh but it but it's not being done.
42:14
SPEAKER_00: In in all honesty, I think that right now it's sort of out of sight, out of mind.
42:19
SPEAKER_00: Just nobody's worried about it.
42:21
SPEAKER_00: Nobody in the government or the the powers that be are just not paying attention to it to the problem and hoping that it'll it it will go away.
42:30
SPEAKER_00: And since we're talking about a small amount of people, it's not a it's not it's tens maybe of people, maybe the problem will go away.
42:40
SPEAKER_00: In order to sue the government on this matter, and I I think there are both legal and constitutional issues related to this, it's something that will cost a lot of money and take a very long time.
42:57
SPEAKER_00: And the government can can appeal.
43:00
SPEAKER_00: If the government loses a decision, it can appeal the decision, and it can be then another appeal can be made and can go all the way up to the privy council, and it'll take years and cost these people hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars.
43:13
SPEAKER_00: So it's a non-starter for most people.
43:16
SPEAKER_00: For most people, they can't they've already lost this money.
43:18
SPEAKER_00: They don't that was their extra money.
43:22
SPEAKER_00: Uh they they the the it's it's a it's a really hard thing for them to do.
43:27
SPEAKER_00: And and not only that, but they don't most of them aren't really aware of the constitutional issues and the legal issues related to this thing.
43:36
SPEAKER_00: And and many of them have are have worked through middlemen who are not locally licensed agents and who are aware of this of how legalities work in in St.
43:50
SPEAKER_00: Kitts, so they're not able to really get the correct sort of understanding of the of the situation.
43:57
SPEAKER_00: These middlemen, you know, if they've been to to St.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: Kitts once, it's great, but uh most of them haven't.
44:04
SPEAKER_00: So it it's a it's a difficult issue.
44:06
SPEAKER_00: I I I think that unfortunately the government of St.
44:10
SPEAKER_00: Kitts has sort of put it out of their their mind.
44:13
SPEAKER_00: It's it's just not something that is uh is being dealt with.
44:17
SPEAKER_00: They have other they're not addressing this.
44:19
SPEAKER_00: They're not addressing they have many other issues, many, many other issues both with the CIP and I mean they they have an issue with water.
44:27
SPEAKER_00: They don't have enough water for their population.
44:29
SPEAKER_00: That's a much bigger priority for them to deal with than than the issue of of the CIP.
44:35
SPEAKER_00: And I I also think that for this government and they've they've been very clear about it and and it's certainly their right to be clear about it, they they want the CIP to be less important to their economy.
44:49
SPEAKER_00: And you could argue that both ways maybe they're right.
44:53
SPEAKER_00: You shouldn't be dependent on just one one industry as as Synkitts was dependent.
44:58
SPEAKER_00: And so whatever issues come up reputational issues I don't think that they that it's that important to them.
45:07
SPEAKER_01: But but but the answer if you're worried about you know citizenship by investment revenue becoming too big of a component in of government revenue would be to increase revenue from other sectors not to decimate revenue in CBI which is what the they seem to be doing I mean the people I talk to around the world agents TBI agents they're saying essentially that nobody's submitting applications to St.
45:38
SPEAKER_01: Kitts and Nevis anymore.
45:39
SPEAKER_01: I mean it's all they doubled prices only in St.
45:42
SPEAKER_01: Kids they acted unilaterally and the others didn't follow suit so well all the all the volume's been channeled elsewhere.
45:52
SPEAKER_00: Well the word on the street is that others will follow and and they'll follow because strategically they should actually now that that that because they can increase their revenue I think and they may they may be able to decrease their volume and increase their rel their revenue which I think is what what St.
46:14
SPEAKER_00: Kitts is trying to do.
46:17
SPEAKER_00: If St.
46:17
SPEAKER_00: Kitts gets half the applications at double the price then they make the same amount of money and then they feel they may be able you know they may be worried that the European Union is worried about the high volume.
46:29
SPEAKER_00: So lower the volume keep the that that might have been their strategy and and that's that's certainly acceptable.
46:38
SPEAKER_00: But I I agree I think I I I've been saying this to to numerous leaders of of St.
46:44
SPEAKER_00: Kitts over the years that that obviously the dependence on the CIP is is the over dependence on the CIP is is something that that puts them in in financial danger and that they should be looking at how to expand other industries.
47:03
SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately and this is one of the challenges that all these countries have is that there are very few industries that that are available to to these countries.
47:15
SPEAKER_00: There's talk about the marijuana industry but the marijuana industry these countries are too small to grow a significant marijuana industry like in Canada or in in in the US so it it it they're in a difficult position.
47:34
SPEAKER_00: I mean the the challenges in all honesty very few people really understand I guess af after living in the Caribbean for over a decade I kind I think I have a sort of a unique view on this but the the challenges of running these small countries when you you have big countries blocking you from doing almost anything they you know they they closed down their financial services sectors the they were forced the OECD forced them to close down their financial services sector while not closing down the financial services sectors of countries that are like like K-nin and and BVI that are BOTs related to Britain Britain.
48:16
SPEAKER_00: They've closed down their their online gambling industry and as a matter of fact here in Antigua you know the the the country is unfortunately so weak but they're they're they govern antigua when they were forced to close down their gambling industry they they they sued the United States and the WTO the World Trade Organization and they won the suit.
48:43
SPEAKER_00: Oh and the the US then appealed and the US lost the appeal and as of today the US owes Antigua 250 million US dollars which would change the whole economy of the of of Antigua and guess how much of that judgment has been paid zero and so what can Antigua do about that legally they can't really do it.
49:15
SPEAKER_00: The only thing that I jokingly say is they could try to invade the United States I mean but there's not so the challenges are really great and and these countries are because they've been put on so under so much pressure I understand how they the the knee jerk reaction to satisfy the requests of uh certainly of the United States and they're so dependent on the United States aside from banking which which the the US has made banking in the Caribbean almost impossible but they're literally dependent on the United States for food.
49:51
SPEAKER_00: And if if the plane with food or the boat with food doesn't arrive on Tuesday then on Wednesday there's no food in the supermarket.
49:58
SPEAKER_00: And it's amazing but it happens a lot.
50:02
SPEAKER_00: I mean we we actually we know which days to go to the supermarket which are the days when the you know the last days before the boat comes this week there's no milk or there's no tomatoes or and so that's a very serious day-to-day issue.
50:17
SPEAKER_00: So while I understand the challenges that that St.
50:21
SPEAKER_00: Kitts is facing in trying to negotiate their their way out of the the you know not not raise the ire of the United States and Europe I think they also have to understand that these people are real people these applicants who have paid their money are real people with families and hopes and dreams you know uh I I I'll I'll we have a client who I I won't discuss too much about him but he was born in one of the countries of the Soviet Union not Russia his father is a Russian ethnic Russian his mother is an ethnic Ukrainian and he's in the he's in the entertainment industry and he and and actually his the his product is is very very well known his entertainment product is very very well known around the world but not only in Russia outside of Russia he does he he does shows for children and almost every child knows his product.
51:31
SPEAKER_00: At the beginning of the Ukraine fiasco he and a whole bunch of others wrote an open letter to the government of the of Russia a whole lot of people in the entertainment business there asking for the whole thing to end calling for an end to it which which took a lot of guts to do and this guy is had his money taken from him by the by some kids I mean and this guy's family are all live in the United States.
52:06
SPEAKER_01: His kids live in the United States I mean it's it's uh he's traveled to the United United States likes him it's irrational and it's a disgrace and I want to ask you what sort of reputational damage do you think that this episode has caused for St.
52:24
SPEAKER_01: Kitts and will cause for Caribbean CBI programs in general?
52:30
SPEAKER_00: Well that's the catch.
52:31
SPEAKER_00: I think it's caused zero reputational risk reputational problems and that is because again there's a total lack of understanding of what the sanctions are and that Russians are are actually human beings like everybody else there's been so much in the West about how bad Russians are but Russians are good and and there's all sorts of arguments as to whether or not the whole what's going on in in Ukraine but but regular Russians have been caught up in in something in a way that that has never happened in any other kind of military operation anywhere else.
53:08
SPEAKER_00: I mean the United States carpet bombs Iraq but nobody says that American people are bad people.
53:13
SPEAKER_01: Right but but I mean if if you're sitting in Riyadh or in Shenzhen and you're observing this episode uh unfolding now in the US I think you care.
53:24
SPEAKER_01: But you don't think that they say well maybe we're the next Russians and this could happen to us?
53:32
SPEAKER_01: No.
53:32
SPEAKER_00: I I would hope it would be that way I I mean I well I don't want you think kids to suffer in any way but but what you're saying is logical but I think that because of the fact that Russians are now at least in the West I mean maybe you're the people in Shenzhen and Riyadh I mean it's really it's only 15% of the world that is sort of anti-Russian now.
53:57
unknown: Right.
53:57
SPEAKER_00: The rest of the 85% don't have any issues with Russians other than the pressure being put on them by the West.
54:05
SPEAKER_00: So I I I I just think it's a non it if it was a bigger issue I mean even if you look at this this online petition it doesn't actually mention Russia because it it knows that that if you mention Russia then then any argument goes out the door.
54:27
unknown: Right.
54:27
SPEAKER_01: So it's almost as if Russians are kind of dead to rights at this point.
54:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah I mean uh obviously as you know I I lived it for decades in Russia and my my my family is Russian my my child my my Canadian child who's not a Russian citizen was born in in in Russia and so I I I love Russians.
54:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm openly saying it and proudly saying that I love the Russian people but uh and Russian culture and uh but uh it it it's unfortunate that a political and yeah and a military conflict has been blamed on my 85 year old sorry 75 year old mother-in-law and she's just a sweetheart and she's not you know she doesn't have a pony in the in the race you know there there's there there are all sorts of other military conflicts going on where where the the individuals have not the individuals in the country have not been blamed for these things.
55:31
SPEAKER_00: It's unfortunate but I I think in terms of St.
55:34
SPEAKER_00: Kitts I I I hope I I want to believe that eventually a solution will be found.
55:43
SPEAKER_00: I really hope that the government does the right thing and either gives the citizenship or at the least and I think that that would be a bad result gives the money back.
55:56
SPEAKER_00: But keeping the money and not giving the citizenship I mean it it it it's obvious what that is and I I don't need to say it publicly what what that would mean.
56:08
SPEAKER_00: And I I want to believe also that the government is aware of that.
56:13
SPEAKER_00: I certainly know that personally people in the government are aware of that they're not happy about this situation just they don't really know how to deal with it and and and therefore they're not all right Nuri I think that's a good place to stop unless there's something else you have in mind that you particularly wanted to talk about that we haven't already spoken about well I I I I think that just to sort of round things up with from from where we started I I I think that the industry obviously needs to change a lot and I I have in order to not only satisf protect protect the applicant's interests and and I think we have a duty to protect the applicant's interests and protecting the applicant's interests is not only dealing with with companies who rip people off and and and we can we know a lot of stories of of that but it's also making sure that what they invested in continues to to to work.
57:20
SPEAKER_00: And for that and you know for the for the better part of the last two and a half decades I've been screaming and shouting about regulating the industry.
57:30
SPEAKER_00: I think the industry needs to be better regulated.
57:33
SPEAKER_00: Just like you know in Canada when I when I started practicing immigration law in Canada the in the early 90s there was no regulation of of immigration consultants and we had to fight literally with the government of Canada to regulate us.
57:50
SPEAKER_00: And I I think regulation is is incredibly important both for governments and for for consumer protection and I I think that if this if this uh if this industry is going to survive it needs to be regulated and it needs to be regulated in the right way it can't be just like a company that is issues memberships to to their to to people who want to join their that company it has to be serious and real regulations and it's a challenge.
58:32
SPEAKER_00: It's very hard to regulate but people should not be allowed practice in this industry unless they are fully regulated both in terms of financial regulation.
58:45
SPEAKER_00: I mean what what I have to go through in Canada with my regulatory body is continued education.
58:51
SPEAKER_00: I I I think I would challenge almost every employee of almost every company to see if they've even read the CIP regulations of the various countries.
59:03
SPEAKER_00: I assume that either maybe just the two of us have read them.
59:09
SPEAKER_00: I think most have not even done that little bit and they're very that it's not like Canada where there are libraries of regulatory documentation regarding immigration.
59:20
SPEAKER_00: These are you know five, six page documents but I I think that the governments need to get together with the help of the serious people with experience in this industry and create a regulatory body that will protect the industry and I think that if they do that it'll give them a lot more a lot more power against the EU and the US and and by the way and I I have to compliment St.
59:53
SPEAKER_00: Kitts in these latest changes they made a very serious change in terms of their regulatory environment and they've always had the sort of the strongest regulatory environment now all uh international marketing agents in order to maintain their their their place on the on the list and on the CIU list they have to register in St.
1:00:21
SPEAKER_00: Kitts they have to register companies in St.
1:00:23
SPEAKER_00: Kitts now to register a company in St.
1:00:26
SPEAKER_00: Kitts is not very easy for a foreigner it's actually you you have to go through a very significant process.
1:00:33
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a good thing.
1:00:34
SPEAKER_00: I think that that agents whether you want to call them a marketing agent or we want to call them anything else need to have a local presence in the country that they are representing I hope the other countries of of the Caribbean follow suit and the the countries have to know better who they are dealing with.
1:00:59
SPEAKER_00: You can't have this whole internet full of people who are are in no way related to the countries and are advertising en masse advertising citizenship by investment yet not they're they're totally unregulated they say things on the the on on the internet that are just not true.
1:01:26
SPEAKER_00: And there's nothing you can do about it.
1:01:27
SPEAKER_00: Now there's a challenge also by the way with regulation altogether which we found in Canada which is that it's it's very hard to regulate the unregulated agents the one they're and the ones who are making you can't do anything about them especially and Canada had that that issue it took them actually 20 years to make it criminal and and Canada can follow up and and find people who are doing this make it criminal to be marketing Canadian immigration without being licensed they and so I think that in the least these countries that are the the Caribbean countries who obviously they can't chase after through Interpol chase after people in Iraq and and wherever like the Canadian government after 20 years of not doing it seems to be starting to look at it I think that at least they should just be blacklisting publicly all companies that are not locally that don't have a local presence and I know that sounds a little bit far flung and I'm being Well I I mean I guess if you if you are in the absence of an ability to enforce your rules far afield then what what can you resort to except public naming and shaming right so that's that I think is if we I I I believe and this is what it's very important for me to to to get this out there is that companies that are in this industry need to make a little bit more of an effort.
1:03:10
SPEAKER_00: They need to go to the country register in the country submit themselves to the government of of the countries and allow the governments of the countries to know who they are not just even on paper that they have a certificate of registration in in Panama or in in wherever or in the Seychelles and show a little police certificate or something of the UBOs but they need to know the UBOs they need to come show sit down be interviewed by the governments and and make sure that they report to the governments I mean for example in can in in Antigua and I'll let you go in two minutes in Antigua we have to have errors and omissions insurance in three million dollars worth of errors and omissions insurance and that is consumer protection.
1:04:09
SPEAKER_00: The companies out in Dubai and China and wherever have nothing they're in no way responsible to their clients other reputationally but reputationally when when it's a question of making money or keeping your reputation many people will choose making money.
1:04:23
SPEAKER_00: So I I think that we all including yourselves everybody has to be looking at how we can regulate this industry in a real and significant way and it has to be working with the governments and it again it's not a commercial enterprise it's real regulation.
1:04:45
SPEAKER_00: And I think that that is the one thing that can save this industry.
1:04:51
SPEAKER_01: That's it for today folks but we'll be back soon with another episode of the mobility standard and hey if you like this podcast why don't you do us a favor and leave a review on Spotify and help more people discover this valuable content and it motivates us.
1:05:08
SPEAKER_01: So thank you for listening