Latest / The You Project / #1711 Evolutionary Ghosts - Dr. Bill Sullivan

Transcript

#1711 Evolutionary Ghosts - Dr. Bill Sullivan · The You Project

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: I got a team Craig, Anthony Harper, doctor Bill Sullivan,
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: doctor Tiffany, and Cook over there at typ Central. Imagine
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: if you did a PhD. Have you ever thought about
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: you ever thought about going to UNI? And you're I
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: mean you're still young, You're only forty one or something.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Have you ever thought about going to UNI? No?
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: I haven't. But as life goes on and I get
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: more and more interested in the process of just learning
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: in different areas, when things really capture my attention, I
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: have half a second glimmer of thought. But then I
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: remember all of the stories I hear about you and
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: the process of it, and I don't think that it
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: is my jam.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I mean you do need to have a
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: specific I think. Well, but anyone can learn. You just
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: need to figure out your way to learn. It's like,
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: you know when people say, let's say a like to
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: doctor Bill, Hi, doctor.
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: Bill, Hello, Craig, Hellole tiff.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: Not that you would know anything about research or study
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: or academia or university. No, not that you would, But
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: like if you feel compelled or you think you got
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: something to add, you know, jump in. But I forget.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: Somebody said, there's this protocol, doctor Bill probably knows, and
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: I think it was like it was either twenty or
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: twenty five minutes of like hard study and then five
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: minutes where you which this is not a very complicated protocol,
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: five minutes of whatever you know, go away, do some pushups,
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: have a week, you get a drink, sit under a tree,
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: then come back. Right when I started, my protocol was
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: five minutes of that and then twenty five minutes of
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: sitting under a tree. Or my inability to be able
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: to read research and actually stay present, My inability was
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: world class. Like having said that, if I am reading
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: something that I'm excited about or fascinated with, right, which
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: sounds bad, I should be fascinated with my research. But
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: doctor Bill will tell you like reading academic journy and
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: you know it's But it took me quite a while.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: But I still think I'm probably about twenty ten. I
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: was five twenty five, but I'm about twenty ten. What
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: about you, doc, did you when you were an undergrad
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: and then a post grad student and even now, like,
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: do you have a particular protocol that works in terms
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: of optimal focus and attention?
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah? I think it varies even within your singular discipline
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: there are certain pockets of knowledge that you're just more
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: innately stimulated by. You know, you just can't get enough
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: of learning about X. Yes, HY is also interesting, but
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: maybe not so much so. I think I was kind
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: of lucky in a way. Like during my PhD, I
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: remember enjoying the topic so much that it was difficult
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: for me to take a break. Okay, it was difficult
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: to convince me to go on a VC. I just
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: and that's not necessarily because I was a work a whole, like,
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: It's just because I've sincerely enjoyed doing what I was doing.
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: So that's what I usually tell the students who come
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: through my lab or through through our department that listen,
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: you got to love this or the PhD is going
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: to be absolute torture for you.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I love. I love my area of research.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: It just like some of the like like when I
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: started writing my lip reviews. So it's systematic literature review
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: looking at it essentially the way that metaaccuracy, which my
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: area of focus, has been measured and is measured across
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: different you know, disciplines and so on. But I started
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: with eleven hundred papers, as you know, when you whittle
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: it down and then and think about that tif I
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: don't know, on average, let's say papers twenty pages, so
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: I think about that. Then you've got to you know,
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: and you don't have to read the entirety of every paper,
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: but you can't just glimpse over it. And then that
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: one hundred and that eleven hundred pages paper's got whittled
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: down to one hundred and ten, which is a very
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: interesting correlation, but that's what it ended up. And the
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: one hundred and ten papers then became a table in
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: my review, a massive table. But just staying focused to
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: go is this is this paper relevant? Is it not?
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: And then you look up and you go, by the way,
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: I've got six hundred and third and to go. It's
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: hard to stay excited in that.
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: It's a demoralizing yeah, and it can be repetitive. So
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: and you know, you see this a lot with you know,
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: masters and PhD students. I think a lot of them
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: come into the program really excited and then they get
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: to see how that sausage is made and it's a
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: lot more difficul cult than they ever imagined. So I'm
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: not saying you can't do it, but if you love
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: the topic, yes, you're going to have a much easier time.
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent. And I think for me, like
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: what made what makes it not easier, but what makes
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: it more I guess enjoyable, and like where it's it's
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: worth it for me is because because I work, you know,
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: with teams and athletes and corporates and organizations where I'm
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: literally in front of groups talking all the time about
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: this kind of social intelligence and social awareness that's called
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: matter accuracy and why that matters and how it impacts
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: everything from building rapport and connection and trust to leadership
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: and teamwork and synergy and culture. And I can kind
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: of bring my real world experience and observation into alignment
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: with my research and bring and have this kind of
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: synergy of academia and real world learning and real world
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: kind of experience. And then I think the challenge for
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: me is and for a lot of academics I reckon
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: who get in front of non academic groups, is how
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: do I share my stuff, my thoughts and ideas and
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: knowledge in a way which not only is understandable but
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: also is valuable where people one they understand it, and
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: two they can operationalize it to help them without bamboozling
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: them with graphs and charts and data and bullshit, but
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: still get the truth in inverted commas across to them.
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: You know, that's a that's a real challenge, and I
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: think it's pretty universally understood that in order to earn
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: a PhD, you have to make some sort of original contribution,
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: now a brand new discovery, if you will. That contribut
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: it's something new to the field that hasn't been previously
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: appreciated or known, and that's that's really challenging. You know,
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: there's a great deal of information out there already, and
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: I think it's pretty consistent across disciplines. Whatever you get into,
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: you really need to start doing a deep dive into
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: everything in order to find those undiscovered nuggets of knowledge.
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: And like you're describing, you have to be so well read.
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: I mean, you basically have to become an expert, you know,
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: one of the one of the most knowledgeable people in
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: the world on your topic of choice, so that you
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: can contribute something new because you don't want to rediscover
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: the wheel. That's the last thing you want to spend
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: your time doing. Uh So, yeah, that's the inherent challenge,
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: and a PhD but what a reward, right, I mean,
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: at the end of the process, if you're awarded that PhD,
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: that really underscores the value of how you invested your time.
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: You've contributed something new to humanity's body of knowledge, and
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: that's really hard to put a praise sign. And that's
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: why I admire anyone who has gone through this process
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: and gotten a PhD, because that tells me that other
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: experts agree they've contributed something really impactful to their field.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And it's what's interesting is, you know, my
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: field is psychology, right, But it's funny you come out
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: with a doctorate or a PhD in psychology, but if
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: psychology is the ocean, I'm studying a drop of water
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: in that ocean, you know what I mean. It's like,
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: oh yeah, people go, oh, so you'll be a doctor
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: of psychology and I go, technically yes, and they're like,
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: so you're like a psychologist.
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: No, oh, lie down on the couch and start telling
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: you about my childhood.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: Traumas and yeah, but if you want to know anything
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: about metapceptional meta accuracy, then I'm guy. But other than that,
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: you know, probably keep your childhood trauma to yourself. But yeah,
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: it is. It is. It's it's incredibly specific and nuanced
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: and trying to explain to people that, you know, here's this,
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: here's this beach of sand, and I'm oversee that grain
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: of sand over there on this beach. That's what I'm
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: researching for five years and many and like you said,
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: when I'm finished, I will be one of the experts
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: in the world until about next Tuesday when I get overrun.
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: And when you produce your PhD thesis, there's probably only
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: two or three people who actually want to read the
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: thing because it gets so specific and so nuanced.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: Oh you know, we've we've.
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: Churned out over one hundred papers from my laboratory right
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: brand new research revolving around this parasite called toxic plasma,
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: and the I could probably add up all the people
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: who read all one hundred of those papers, and it
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: would still be dwarfed by the number of people who
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: might have read a popular article that I've written about it.
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: You know, I think that would be to the toward
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: a general audience. So yeah, it's pretty crazy to think
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: about it, how specific things can get. But what we
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: do have to keep in mind is, no matter how
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: small the part of the puzzle is that we investigate.
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: You can't complete the puddle without that piece. So this
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: is something I tell all my students all the time
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: if they start to get discouraged, no matter how small
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: that puzzle piece might seem to you, it is worth,
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: you know, mapping it out, because the puzzle can't be
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: completed without it, and you will be the person puts
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: that piece into place. So don't ever forget that.
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: A friend of mine the other the days said to
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: me a guy I grew up with, who great guy?
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: He said, Oh, when you finished, like we're chatting, He's like,
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: what are you working on today? I said, I'm just
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: working on my you know, one of my papers. It's
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: systematic literature review. What's that? And I told him and
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: he goes, oh wow. He goes, can I read it?
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: Like when you finished? Can I read it? And I go,
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: she don't want to read it? And he goes, no,
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: I really want to read it. I go, here's a
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: better idea. Let's spend ten minutes or five minutes, and
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: I will tell you what it's about and you'll understand
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: that and you'll be mildly interested. And then I read
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: him the abstract right and he's like, nah, I want
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: to read it. I read in the abstract of my paper.
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: He's like, nah, no, I get it all right, I
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: didn't really Yeah, yeah, no. So what about when you
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: do do you ever do corporate stuff, doc, Like, do
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: you get in front of non academic audiences.
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: You mean like corporate speaking and stuff?
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, like what talking to Yeah, whether or not
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: it's at corporate conferences or workshops or seminars, do that
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: stuff as well? Well?
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: We certainly do a lot of like presentations at scientific meetings,
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: and these are these vary on the topic. So most
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: of the meetings we go to are microbiology and nature
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: because we study a parasite, so we go to infectious
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: disease meetings microbiology meetings. But some of the aspects of
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: the parasite that we study, some of the particulars of
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: its biology, will take us to meetings from different disciplines.
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: We don't go to too many, like pharmaceutical companies because
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: they I don't really know if that's like a platform
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: that they offer. But I certainly run into colleagues who
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: work in industry at the various scientific meetings that I
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: told you about.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: So one of the things which is probably, you know, well,
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: it's not probably. It's my main job in inverted commas
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: is is corporate speaking. But I will talk at everything
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: from real estate conferences to banking conferences, to medical conferences,
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: to blokes in prison, to you know, cricket clubs and
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: football clubs and elite athletes, but speaking broadly around you know,
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: how like human performance, how do I manage me? How
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: do I manage my mind, body, emotions, choices, behavior, lifestyle?
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: How do I get the best out of me? Right?
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: And so my premise for talking to you know, it's
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: like someone might go, so you're going to talk at
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: a banking conference, what the fuck do you know about banking?
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: I go nothing. I don't need to because I'm not
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: there to talk about banking. Because what I've got is
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: a thousand people in a room. And each of those
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: thousand people have got a brain and a body and
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: a mind and a life and a lifestyle, and all
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: of them make choices, and all of them have behaviors
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: and habits and rituals, and probably all of them overthink,
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: and all of them at some stage get anxious. And
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: all right, so there's this. Yeah, I'm not a banking expert,
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: but I'm not there to talk about that. I'm there
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: to talk about how all of those people who work
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: in that industry can look after themselves better. You know
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: the question.
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: You're using a different skill set there, You're you're becoming
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: more like a coach, and yeah, how do I manage
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: able to Yeah, it doesn't matter if they're they're bankers
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: or in the auto industry or what have you. You're
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: you're giving them transferable psychological tools that they can use
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: to excel in their field, no matter what it is.
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: So if you include my book in the realm of
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: what I do at the university, I have certainly given
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: talks at corporations and other places. I've been everywhere with
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: that thing.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: That's what That's what I was thinking.
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: So libraries to build a books please.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: To meet me? By the way, churches Yeah, yeah, well,
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: I mean it's because well humans are in churches too,
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: you know, I mean.
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: Everywhere absolutely, And there's just you know, there's these this
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: wonderful thirst for knowledge that I think most humans have
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: a curiosity. And my book, which Pleased to Meet Me,
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: is basically an own as manual for the human body
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: based on the knowledge that we currently have now and
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: you know, it's a very up to date, cutting edge
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: type of book that teaches you how genes and microbes
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: and psychological forces, evolutionary forces all conspire to make you
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: who you are. And I'm hard pressed to find any
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: human being that has no interest in that topic because
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: Know Thyself is one of the greatest philosophical pieces of
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: wisdom that has ever been put forth, and this book
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: teaches you how to do that. Yeah, And in the
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: same manner, it teaches you how other people operate, which
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: can you know you can leverage for good or bad?
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: I suppose, But it's comforting to know that the same
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: things that make you tick make another person tick. Okay,
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: So you can find some commonalities even though you might
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: be very different. You can find these biological commonalities that
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: explain how you got to be that type of person.
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: And in my mind, it engenders a lot more compassion
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: between people despite the differences.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: I love that you know you can't.
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: Help to a large degree the type of person you became,
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: and if you understand that about yourself and you understand
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: that about someone else, you can put that on the
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: table as like the conversation starter. Look, we're very different.
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: We can respect that, but we do have a lot
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: in common. Okay, we're all human, we all have the
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: same wishes and aspirations, we all fear the same things,
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: and I think at the end of the day, we
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: all want to make the world a better place. So
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: why are we different? And how can we overcome those
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: differences to achieve our common goals? And that's a conversation
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: that needs to be had. But there's a lot of
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: people out in the world making a lot of money
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: by preventing that conversation from happening.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an interesting time we live in. It's very
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: especially right at the moment. So one of the things
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: I want your thoughts on this, Right, So this is
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: a really common Craig thing. My listeners have heard a
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: version of this a thousand times. Right. So when I
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: have a thought, if I believe the thought, you know,
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: and let's say the thought it's just a construct in
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: my mind, but it's not true. Let's say the thought
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: is I'm in danger, right, but I'm not actually in danger,
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: but I think I'm in danger. But the reality, the
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: real world reality, is that I'm safe. There's no threat,
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: I am not in danger, but I think I'm in
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: dangerotional kind of association with that would be fear, terror, whatever,
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: And then the physiological could be all the things you know,
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: elevated heart rate, breathing, adrenaline, cortisol, sympathetic, nervous system, all
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: this physiological stuff happens. So in this kind of this
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: myriad of events that are going on almost simultaneously, like
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: cognitive emotional physiological or psychological emotional physiological. Is the response
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: in my body caused by my thought? Or is my
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: genetics which is you know, my genetic disposition? Does that
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: determine how I think? Like, what's the direction of all
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: of this? Is it all at once? Is it? What
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: are your thoughts on that? Like the way that our
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: thinking affects our biology slash physiology and vice versa.
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a really interesting question, kind of a biological
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: chicken or the egg type of thing. And it all
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: happens so fast that we can't perceive what the kinetics
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: of this possibly is. But from all I understand about
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: stress responses and so on, and I, you know, just
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: to touch on your point real quick, we invent so
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: much unnecessary stress in our lives today that it's just crazy.
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: And it stems from what I call evolutionary ghosts. Okay,
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: these are physiological things that happened to us that that
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: kind of prey upon our ancient stress responses, things that
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: would have kept us alive back when we were running
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: away from cheetahs and cougars or whatever, you know, or
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: trying to find food. Those are legitimate stresses that if
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: we didn't satisfy those drives, those needs, those anxieties, we
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: probably would have died. Okay, the survivor was on the line.
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: That's not the case for most people today, most people. Okay,
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: So we invent all these other stresses, mostly like their
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: social in nature, because we still have deep within our
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: brains these primordial drives to broadcast the best version of
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: ourself that we can. Okay, we're obsessed with status, We're
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: obsessed with climbing the hierarchy for these silly reasons to
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: attract a mate and dominate you know, the tribe or
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: society if you will. And we don't have to do
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: that anymore. These these are totally invented stresses and pressures
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: that we put upon ourselves. And I know it's so
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: much easier said than done. It's easier said by an
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: old man like me than a younger person, because those
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: stresses are very palpable. You know, I didn't think this
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: way when I was younger, but of course I didn't
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: have an appreciation for the biology behind all of it.
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: But all this excessive ambition for status, when you think
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: about it in biological terms, very silly and very unnecessary.
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: We can build a different world that is not based
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: on competition and you know, defeating one another, but based
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: on collaboration and cooperation. That's when humans really excel. Okay,
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: not when they compete, when they collaborate, when they cooperate
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: the scientific enterprise that you were describing earlier, Craig, despite
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: the fact that you plug in one small piece of
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: the puzzle that illustrates the power of the connectivity of
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: all the scientists working on the same problem. None of
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: us can figure it out by ourselves anymore. We rely
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: on all all the other individuals helping us. So I
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: really get frustrated with egotistical people these days, thinking that
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: their singular actions, you know, caused some great thing. It
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: is always built on the shoulders of giants, right, So
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: what the hell was I talking about before I went on? Okay,
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: the evolutionary ghosts and the astresses and the order. Okay,
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: see this is another problem of getting old. You forget
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: where your train of thought.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: No, I think it's kirstin. You've got twenty seven things
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: going on it once up there, So yeah, go on,
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: evolutionary ghosts. I'm writing that down. That could be the title.
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that was in. That was in the book
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: if people want to learn more specifics about them, and
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: I encourage people to do so, if not from my book,
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: from somewhere else, because you can live a much more
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: happier life once to identify the silly reason behind many
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: of our biological drives. Yeah, so here's what. Here's the
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: answer to your question after all of that, I think
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: you know, from my understanding of the situation is when we,
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: when our brains at a subconscious level, detect some threat, okay,
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: some you know. Let's say that you suspect that someone
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: is spreading some bad gossip about you. Okay, that's going
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: to send some kind of red alarm, you know, red
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: alert into your brain, right, and you might not know
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: why at first, but it will quickly occur to you
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: that oh my gosh, I'm feeling all this this worry
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: and this anger and maybe this thirst for revenge because
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: I believe this person is talking bad about me. Okay,
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: so I don't believe we think about that. The emotions
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: happen first, because those emotions are the same as if
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: you were to be chased by a bear. Those would
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: be the same emotion, the same biochemicals coursing through your bodies,
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: whether it's a physical threat or a psychological threat, same chemicals,
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: it's the same chemistry. So evolution is basically co opted
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: a primordial system that kept us alive, you know, if
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: a predator was chasing us, and it is applied it
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: to our social interactions, which I mean I can understand.
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: Back in the day, those may have been really critical
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: to your survival. You know, your status and the tribe
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: and the amount of resources you get, the amount of
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: mating opportunities and so on. You don't need to worry
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: about that in today's world. Yeah, I don't think most
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: people do. I mean, obviously there's some people. It's really
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: bad places where these primordial stress response pathways are still
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: going to keep them alive. But most people stress about
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: really really dumb things. And if you have the courage
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: to analyze your responses and think intelligently. Okay, why do
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: I feel anxious? Why do I feel angry? Oh, it's
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: because someone might be spreading gossip about me. Put a
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: pause in between your response and the emotions you feel,
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: and it can be short, a short, little pause, or
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: maybe you just want to sleep on it. You know,
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: that can even be better sometimes, and you'll find that
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: your responses tend to be a lot more measured, a
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: lot more stoic, and a lot more sensible if you
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: utilize your prefrontal cortex, which is the logical analytical part
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: of your brain, and apply it to the emotions that
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: you're feeling. Okay, I'm recognizing my emotions, but my common
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: sense is telling me this is why I'm feeling those emotions.
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: And then you can evaluate whether you really need a
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: drastic response or if it's no big thing.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: That's why you're that's why you're doctor Bill. Yeah. What's
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: interesting is that, like an intellectual understanding can coexist with
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: an irrational emotion in the same human at the same time.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: Like I might think this is ridiculous, but I might think, oh,
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: doctor Bill doesn't like me. Right, I'm all of a sudden,
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: I'm insecure. I'm thinking doctor bild. I don't know he
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: said that or he looked at me that da da
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: da da while while probably knowing that's not true. Do
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean? But at these things, or
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: I could maybe a better example is, you know, I've
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: literally stood on a stage thousands of times. I did
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: my first paid speaking gig when I was twenty six.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: I did lots before that for free, So thousands of
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: times I've been of an audience. And there are still
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: times when there's fear, like irrational fear, not terror. But well,
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: this will be the day that you fuck up, Craig.
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: You've been very lucky for the last thirty five years,
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: you know. There's that kind of a what if? What
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: if while having data that tells me, no, you're actually
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: quite good at this, you know, unemotional evidence and data,
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: whereas those things can coexist, and sometimes I need to
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: consciously just recognize the feeling without buying into the feeling,
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: you know, while still not pretending that there's zero risk
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: and I'm guaranteed to kill it, you know. But I
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: think also that like when you are opening the door
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: on which is you're opening a Craig door, which I like,
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: why do I feel this way, even, why do I
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: think this way? Why do I respond this way? Which
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: is like a matter of awareness or a you know, metabception,
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: metacognition more accurately thinking about thinking but also thinking about emotions.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: It's like that that is a real skill and a
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: kind of awareness to be able to in the moment,
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: like you said, before you react, which some we can't
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: always do that, but if you can find a moment
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: to go hang on, what is this feeling? Where is
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: this thought coming from?
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: Why? Why?
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: Why is my state changed? Why am I anger now?
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: Why am I scared? Now? Why am I overthinking? Now?
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: Why do I want that person that I don't know?
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: Why do I want their approval so desperately? What is
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: that about? You know, this is like a real kind
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: of I think, like an interpersonal and intra personal superpower
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: where you can understart to understand yourself because you're you know,
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: like understand yourself bigger than just your biology and physiology.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: Understanding you know, the way that you interact with others
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: sociology and the way that you think about others and
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: think about yourself psychology, but just understanding you for you,
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: but also understanding you for others. You know, does that
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: make sense.
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so, And I'll start by saying, I.
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: Adore you, Craig, you know, thanks whether Professor Bill likes you,
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: thank you. You know, I know you've probably lost so
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: much sleep over that, and I feel so bad that
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: I didn't make it clear.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: I really do enjoy coming on here and talking to you.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Tiff. Can you make that a real please
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: that Doctor Bill said he adores me. So that is
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: going to be all over the internet in about a
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: six second reel very soon. Thank you.
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: I think anyone who talks to you will feel the
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: same way.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: So now the episode is going to be called Doctor
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: Bill Loves Me.
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: There you go. I'm sure you'll get a lot of
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: listeners on that one.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but I'm sorry, sorry to interrupt. Go ahead.
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: Oh no, no, I certainly understand, like the trepidation that
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: you still can feel and getting up in front of
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: an audience, even if you've done in a million times,
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: you're worried that the million in first time is going
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: to be a disaster for some reason, yes, or that
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: you're you know, as we get older, we're losing it
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: or something like that, And you know that that's perfectly natural.
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: But like you said, I love the example that you
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: pointed out there. You have the emotional intelligence to stop
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: that feeling in its tracks and analyze it and diffuse
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: it with data. Okay, you diffuse it with all the
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: other instances where you've gotten up in front of the audience,
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: all the other instances you felt nervous. Everything was just fine.
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: There's no real reason unless you went to the bar
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: for lunch that you're going to screw up this time. Yeah,
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: so calm down and have fun with it. And if
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: it is a disaster, who cares, you know, So you
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: have one bad day, you'll be able to recover from that.
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: We take ourselves and other people way too seriously sometimes,
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: and you know, I think this is just a part
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: of life that maybe it comes along with age, maybe
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: it comes by analyzing your emotions more carefully. But you
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: know that we all have one really basic thing in common.
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: And I give this advice to friends and even family
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: members who feel stressed out, and it sounds like really
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: really crazy advice, but I tell them, don't forget. One
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: day you'll be dead, that person will be dead, everybody
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: will be dead. No one's going to remember any of this, Okay,
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: in a couple billion years, the Sun will swallow the earth.
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: All of humanity will be wiped out. What are you
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: stressing for? Go out and have some fun.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: And if you weren't stressed before, everyone now you are. No,
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: it's so like you are. You didn't say this exactly,
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: but and correct what I get wrong earlier. Firstly, I
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: agree with what you said. It's really we may yeah,
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: of course, and we we invent problems like if there
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: isn't like I've got friends, you know who you are friends.
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: If they don't, if nothing's wrong, they'll find something, they'll
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: manufacture something to worry about. They will find a needle
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: of negativity in a haystack of hope.
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, right, we have a strong negativity bias in
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: our brain. It's kept us alive, you know, back in
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: the day. Again, it's another one of these evolutionary ghosts.
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: And I think that when we think about you were
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: talking before about the physiological responses to perceived threat or danger,
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: or or maybe I was talking about what we were
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: talking about. But it's it's like so like some fear
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: is good, Like certain fears are good because they're going
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: to keep us alive and they make total sense and Craig,
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: don't put your hand in the fire, and that is
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: a good fear to have, or don't pick up that snake,
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: or don't jump off that you know, these are all intelligent,
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: healthy fears that make sense. But then there are irrational
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: fears that are almost can almost become a psychological and
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: emotional prison, that stop people's growth, that stop people's happiness,
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: that stop people's ability to socialize, you know, agoraphobia being
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: a classic example of people who are scared to leave
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: their house or to you know, like and full respect
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: for that, like it's a very real condition, but you know,
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: trying to trying to manipulate or change that physical fear
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: response over time. And what comes to mind for me
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: is I probably coached about Like I've spoken to a
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: lot of people about public ex speaking a lot, but
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: I probably coached about ten people in the last thirty
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: years who came to me expressly because their job required
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: them to talk to a group. And sometimes it was
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: a group of five, and sometimes it was in an
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: auditorium with hundreds of people, and they were somewhere between
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: scared and uncomfortable through to terrified. And I didn't really
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: have any abject failures. But what was interesting was and
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: it was mostly successful and some with some stellar performances
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: where people then almost became addicted to it because they
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: loved it, right, But watching people transform from doing a
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: thing that creates stress and anxiety and all this physical
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: kind of stuff happening in their body through to the
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: same person doing the same thing and enjoying it and
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: having a completely different, literal, different physiological, emotional and psychologic
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: experience further down the track doing the same thing and
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: trying to figure out how do we how do we
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: as individuals and we can't with everyone, but how do
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: we try in ourselves to create a less traumatic physical
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: response to some of those things that it's almost like
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: we are creating the trauma.
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I get what you're saying, and you know, just
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: to put in a disclaimer that we should distinguish that
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: there are real phobias out there that can be very paralyzing,
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: and we certainly don't mean to belittle those with this conversation,
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: But what you're suggesting, Craig is much more minor on
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: non clinical phobia that just slows people down on a
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: daily basis for seemingly no good reason. And you know this.
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: This I think is a is a trainable entity. There
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: are many books on how to live your life following
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: stoic philosophical principles. I have found those to be immensely helpful.
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: And for those who think stoicism is just like ignoring
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: your emotions, that's not what it is. It is basically
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: learning how to detect your emotions, appreciating them for what
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: they are and nothing more, but then utilizing your resources
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: and your intellect to evaluate those emotions and respond more productively. Okay,
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: and stoicism gives you a wide variety of psychological tools
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: that you can use to train yourself in that regard.
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: That's something most people can do in the comfort of
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: their own home and buy themselves. But if you're struggling
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: with it, stoicism is basically the foundation for CBT cognitive
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: behavioral therapy, and if you need to seek out a
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: therapist to help guide you to develop these habits, cognitive
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: behaviorable behavior therapist is what you want to seek out.
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: They will teach you how to put that space in
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: between your emotions and your response. It's pretty remarkable that
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: CBT is a relatively recent psychological phenomenon of psychological practice,
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: but it really has its roots two thousand years ago
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: with the Greek and Roman Stoic philosophers. I just find
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: that fascinating. They figured this out so long ago and
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: we just kind of rediscovered it now. And it's a
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: good thing because, like you said in your examples, Craig,
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: there's so many people worrying over such minutia and trivial things,
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: and I know they can seem really written to you
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: in the moment, but if you can learn to reevaluate
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: some of those feelings that are being generated by your body,
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: you really can get better at it and develop more
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: productive responses down the road.
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: You know what's interesting about you know, obviously the stoics
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: and philosophers and theologians and in different cultures gurus like
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: they've been around forever, not literally but a long long time,
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: but in the evolutionary timeline, like psychology is five minutes old.
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: But yeah, we all grew up going all psychology psychology,
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: but for most of most of humanity it wasn't even
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: it wasn't even a thing. I think eighteen seventy that
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: the term was coined, or I think the first kind
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: of what they would call psychological research. I forget the
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: guy's name. It was a German dude, but psychology as
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: a field of study and research, and even that name,
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: it's five minutes old. And then you think about as
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: you say, what Socrates and Marcus Aurelius and you know,
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: all of those dudes and some do that, So I'm
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: sure we're talking about two two and a half thousand
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: years ago. It was really is really the foundation of
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: so much wisdom around just being a human, what it
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: is to be a human and to interact with other humans,
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: and to learn how to self regulate and self manage
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: and mind your mind and mind your emotions and mind
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: your behaviors. Like none of this stuff that we're talking
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: about today is even remotely new.
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: You know, it's been you would know, yeah, I mean,
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: and none of us knew.
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: It's like that, you know, the beginning of wisdom is
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: to know, because my you know, to know thyself, which
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: is I think two and a half thousand years old.
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: That quote, give or take depending on you know, and
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: that was I've taken it out, but that was. That
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: was the first sentence in my in the intro to
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: my thesis. It might go back in, but it's funny
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: you quote all of these researchers. It's like, you know,
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: da da da our twenty twenty one. And then you
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: go Socrates five hundred BC. Yeah, two words myself. Yeah,
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: likely all you need to do.
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: But yeah, but you know, there's that know thyself seems
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: like a simple freeze, and it's a valuable one, but
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: there's a lot to unpack there.
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: That's that's right. It's like it's like it's analogous to
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: saying to somebody, you know, don't worry. It's like, well,
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: that's cool, but I need a bit more than that. Yeah,
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: because that's not a strategy or a plan. There's no.
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: That's almost like an instruction, as know thy self is.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: It's it's a good instruction, but then we need a
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: little bit more to know. Yeah. Good, okay, I get that,
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: But what does that mean? And how do I do that?
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah? Well, as Bobby McFerrin would say, you know, don't worry,
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: be happy, you know, which is another Okay, Well how
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: do I do that? And there are tools out there
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: that can help you that. The whole realm of positive
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: psychology is kind of centered on these principles that recognize
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: that human brains probably all primate brains have a strong
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: negativity bias. It was good for you when you were
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: being chased by predators and looking for food and trying
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: to survive the elements. We don't live in that world anymore.
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: So what we.
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: Waste a lot of that stress on is our social interactions.
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: And I'm not trying to diminish the importance of our
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: social interactions, but there are things that we do in
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: society that we should analyze before pursuing them. This relentless
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: pursuit up up the ladder of success for what, you know,
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: get to a rung where you're comfortable, and then just
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: start living your life. You know. Don't let life pass
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: you by trying to reach up for another rung on
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: this endless ladder, you know. So that's just one really
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: important lesson you can learn and when you embrace some
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: of these principles, and it certainly doesn't mean that you
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: can just sit back on your couch, kick off your
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: shoes and just you know, rest for the remainder of
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: your life. That's not really what positive psychology it's about.
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: It's about channeling your efforts and your energies into more
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: productive things than worry and anxiety, because that doesn't help anything.
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: It just shortens your life and it makes you miserable.
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: You can extract the energy that's being put into those
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: feelings and put it into something tangible, Okay, that's really
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: going to make a difference. You know, maybe you can
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: rate something, maybe you can go march for a cause,
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: maybe you can get into politics. You can channel those
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: energies into something that's going to to help solve the problem.
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: One hundred percent. Yeah. We we do have a capacity
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: to invest a lot of energy and things that we
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: can't control or change. And there's I don't know if
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: I've mentioned this to you, but there was a lady
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: who recently brought out a book. Sorry everyone that you've
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: heard this twenty times, but it's called Bad Therapy Buyer,
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: an author and a researcher called Abigail Schreier, and she
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: talks about you know that that some for some people,
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: talk therapy is not great because it means every Tuesday
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: they go and sit down with you know, Brian or
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: Gail and talk about the same stuff they talked about
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: the last ninety two sessions. Some people, of course, it's
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: more than that, but for some people that's not the best.
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: But I also think back to your you know, the
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: success ladder, Like I think part of the challenge and
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: I know we've got to wind up soon, but part
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: of the challenge is because most of us me anyway.
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: And I'm sure Tiff, I don't know about you, Doc,
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: but we kind of grew up in Australia. The culture
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: and the collective mindset is that success is about stuff.
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: It's about things. It's about you know, what you have
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: and what you earn, and what your own, and what
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: you drive and where you live and what people think
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: to you, what people say about you, and your brand
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: and your credibility and your academic achievements and your bank
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: balance and your body and like, it's about all of
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: these external things. And we have this. When I have,
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: I will be successful when and then you get to there.
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: And I did this when I was fortunate in that
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: I kind of had some success when I was in
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: my early thirties, and by the time I was in
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: my early thirties, I was more commercially success tesful then
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: I ever thought I would be in my life. But
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: at the same time, I was maybe the most sad
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: and anxious and not sleeping, And I'm like, how does
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: this work. I'm in inverted commas successful. So externally, from
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: there outside looking in, my life's Hollywood and people would
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: say you're killing it. You're going oh, and I'll be
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: like yeah, And then but internally I'm like, why do
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: I feel like shit? And I think that the you know,
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: this story that we have is when I own that
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: or do this or achieve that or look like that,
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: then I will be the opposite of everything. You know,
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: I won't be anxious, I will be calm, I will
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: be joyful, I will sleep well, I won't be insecure.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: All of these great and then you do those things
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: and you're like, none of that's true. I'm still insecure.
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: You can see that example plead out in many celebrities
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: who are so miserable they turned to drugs and alcohol
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: in order to escape what from the outside looks like
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: a glorious life. But like you said, they're miserable, and
• 46:11
  Speaker 3: no amount of money, no amount of houses or boats
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: or jewelry, none of that can satiate the human desire
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: for more. And I think culture has a lot to
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: do with this, because, like you said, we are raised
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: in this culture that your value in life is based
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: on what's in your checkbook or what's in your bank,
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: and that's total bullshit. Your measure your value in life
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: is the character that you exude, okay, and how you
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: treat other people in your life. That's what and scientific
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: studies have backed up what philosophers and many theologians have
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: been telling us for years. The key to happiness is
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: not in external things like money and cars and jewelry.
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: It's in internal things. And what that means, of my
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: understanding of it is it's how you, you know, build
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: your character and recognize someone else's character. It's basically being
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: good to yourself, allowing yourself to you know, to feel
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: pleasure from very simple things, and you know, extending that
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: same kindness to another person. Many studies have shown that gratitude, humility,
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: and generosity are much more likely to make you feel
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: not only temporary happiness, but sustained contentment than any amount
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: of money or luxury.
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I mean it's I think like we think that,
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: of course, because that's how we're all programmed that money
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: equals wealth. And I'm like, well, money's a race. Money's
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: not bad, by the way, of course, like lots of money. Cool.
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: If somebody said Craig, you can get paid X tomorrow
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: or ten X. I'm choosing ten X. But I'm not
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: thinking that ten X is going to make me a
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: better human and a better person or a happier person
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: necessarily at all. But I talk about wealth in terms
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: of like social wealth, emotional wealth, spiritual wealth, and psychological wealth,
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: and looking at those bank balances or those those kind
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: of that kind of you know, because as you say,
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: and of course there's a practical reality. We've got to
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: pay the bills and feed the kids and send them
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: to school, of course, but there is a you know,
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: there is definitely a kind of an internal kind of
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: ledger as well. Hey mate, we've got to go. One
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: of my proudest moments on this podcast in seventeen hundred
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: and eight episodes is getting you to say bullshit. So
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: thank you. Couldn't be prouder. Couldn't be prouder if I
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: opened the swearing door about a year and a half
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: ago and he just finally walked through it. So my
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: work is done. Thank you everybody. This will be my
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: last and it won't be mate. So doctor Bill's book
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: is Pleased to meet me Jeans, Germs and the Curious
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: forces that make us who we are. If people want
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: to follow you or connect with you, do you want
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: them to do that? And if so, how do they
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: do that?
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: Oh? Absolutely, they can find me at author Bill Sullivan
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: dot com.
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: Perfect. All right, we'll say goodbye here, but for the moment,
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: Tiffany and Cook, thank you, Thanks guys, doctor Bill, thank you.
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: My pleasure.