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The Amazing Life of Christine Granville · Stuff You Should Know

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey,
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: and Jerry's here too, and this is stuff you should know. Oh,
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Jerry left, she was here, I think just long enough
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: for the interest of that count. All right, sure, how
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: are you doing.
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: I'm great. I'm kind of excited about this one because
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: this is one that out you got intro.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah you ready?
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: Here Chuck?
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: Yes, have you.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Ever heard of World War Two? Oh?
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: I missed those?
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Well?
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: Sure, the big one, Okay, the granddaddy of them all,
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: the Big Game. No way, that's a super Bowl.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: I don't think they call it the Big Game. Well,
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: it turns out, Chuck, that in World War Two, arguably
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: one of the greatest spies, an amateur, no less, came
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: out of Poland. It was a woman.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Can you believe that?
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: I can.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: But that's the whole premise of this, Well that's not
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: the whole premise of it, but that's a premise of
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: a lot of stuff, like get a load of this
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: this lady, what she did, and then when you add
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: it all up, you're like, oh my goodness, she really
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: was possibly the greatest spy and her biographer named Claire
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: Mully put it, she wrote a book called The Spy
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: Who Loved There's a colon in there somewhere. I think
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: it's the Spy Colon who loved Me.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: No, no, But.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: In her book The Spy Who Loves she describes this
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: woman who will call Christine Granville for now more bond
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: less bond girl. And I was like, you go.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: Girl, Oh that's a good descriptor yeah, I thought so,
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: too inappropriate. This is one of those where you know,
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: I'm always harping about, oh, this should be a movie,
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: this should be and it sounds like it is going
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: to be a movie. And we'll get to that at
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: the end. But I do want to give a shout
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: out we've been taking, or at least I have. I
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: think you have too. More and more suggestions from listeners
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: I found as the well seemingly it runs dryer that
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: it's nice to get these ideas from people, the good ones, right.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we get plenty of good ideas a lot, Like
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: every every day we get a few good ideas.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: I would say, yeah, I would say so, And I'm
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: going to keep a list of good ideas. And I
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: very kindly say thank you to the people whose ideas
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: aren't great. They're good ideas, but just maybe not for
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: the show. Sure you know what I'm saying that, No, no, no,
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: I tell everybody thank you for the great idea. But
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: I well, I guess that would be outing myself if
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: I say what I told the people, these ideas I
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: really like. So I'm just going to keep that to myself.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: But this one came from Jen Spota in Seattle and
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: basically said, yeah, this is Christine Grantfles is close to
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: her real life James Bond as you can get yep.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: And I will go on to say this is another
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: way of precursoring this episode. Jen says she was a
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: spy for the British and World War Two and her
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: stories are so insane they're almost unbelievable. But her story
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: is not very well known, So Jen, this one's for you.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's for everybody who's ever wanted to learn
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: more about woman spies in World War Two.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: Totally. Christine Granville was kind of an awesome BA.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: Yes she really was. Her. Christine Granville was just a
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: cover name. That's what she's fairly well known as because
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: she kept that after the war, because she was so
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: proud of what she'd accomplished with that name. But she
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: was born in Poland to an aristocratic father and a
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: wealthy mother from a Jewish banking family. The father was
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: not wealthy, he was aristocratic, so you put the two
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: together and you have a suddenly very powerful family. And
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: her birth name was Christina Scarbeck, which is a I
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: mean Christine Granville. You can see Christina to Christine. The
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: Granville throws me off a little bit from Scarback, but
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: I guess that's the point of a new identity. You
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: don't exactly want to be like word, but this sounds
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: a lot like Christina Scarbeck. Is that who you are?
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah? In different spellings. The americanized I guess Christina with
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: a ch, well, literally like Christian. And then the Polish
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: version was k r y st y n a. And
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: if I may just read her full name, because it's
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: pretty great, her full given name was Maria Christina Janina Scarbeck.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: And I have to say her dad's name because there
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: are two men in the story with his first name,
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: and I've never heard of it. His name is Jersey
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: j e.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: R z Y, so I looked it up and in
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: Polish it's like yert Z yerd ce okay, I figured,
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: and it's the Polish version of George.
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, So no wonder it sounds a little more
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: common than I would think.
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: But it is a pretty pretty great name in the spelling.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: And the fact that there's two Yertzy's in her life,
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: very prominent ones. I think that's astounding too, that you
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: go from zero to two overnight. Basically, that's right.
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: Her mom was a Goldfelder of the Jewish banking Goldfelder family,
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: and that's where they got their money. But when Christine
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: was growing up, you know, she was very privileged. But
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: then eventually after World War One, the Goldfelder bank tanked
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: and the depression that followed, and her dad left the family,
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: died when she when Christina was in her early twenties,
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: and she ends up, you know, not having a lot
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: of money, living in an apartment in Warsaw with her
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: brother and her mother.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, her dad just abandoned the family when the
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: money ran out. It's pretty awful. Yeah, what a jersey
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: she right, She ended up kind of living the high
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: life as best she could. She liked to go out
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: on the town. She was a runner up for Miss
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: Poland beauty contests. I saw that she used to hang
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: out at a very chic ski resort and while there,
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: this is a great, great example of the kind of
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: how she could straddle multiple worlds. Like the people that
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: she was there with were all very wealthy, you know,
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: trust fund kids and like aristocratic kids. But while she
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: was at the ski resort, she also connected with the
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: criminals there and learned the smuggling routes and would go
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: into the foreign like neighboring countries to buy cheaper cigarettes
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: and bring them back and sell them more expensively in Poland.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: That's a great example. And this is what she was
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: doing in her early twenties.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean she sounds like a few things, A
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: real firecracker, Yeah, someone who was eager for adventure and
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: not one to just sort of go the expected route
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: of a young woman at the time in any way,
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: And the reason we mentioned this next part is because
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: it's very sort of prevalent thing for the story is
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: she was very attractive and very charming and used her
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: looks in her charm in her life as a spy
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: to great effect and also ended up as a result,
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: having many many affairs, which was not the kind of
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: thing that you know, a woman of repute was to
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: do back then.
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: Right, she didn't care about that kind of thing.
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: She did not. She was James bonding her way around
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: Europe in a way.
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I saw that. She was described as having a
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: near pathological enjoyment of dangerous situations. Yeah, Like she was fearless.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: Not only that, she seemed to be attracted to fear
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: so she married a couple of times. Her second husband,
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: Jerzy Gizeki, I'm pretty sure that's how it's pronounced. He
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: was a diplomat for Poland in Ethiopia. And while they
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: were moving to Ethiopia, or they had already moved in
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: their traveling around South Africa, Germany invaded Poland. And one
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: of the things you have to know about Christina Scarbeck
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: is she was incredibly patriotic. Like she was not happy
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: about Germany invading Poland at all, but she actually did
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: something about it. She figured out how to get a
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: meeting with the Secret Intelligence Services George Taylor, which became
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: six the Spies in Britain. She got a meeting with
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: him and said, Hey, I want to spy for you
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: guys and work with the Polish Resistance. Let's make this happen.
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's not the way things usually went. Usually
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: didn't go knocking on the door of six. First of all,
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: you probably don't know where that door is, right, But
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: if you happen to find out where that door is,
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: you don't go knocking on it and ask for a job.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: You are generally found and recruited and asked to be
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: to become a part of it. I have a feeling
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: this George Taylor guy was he was in a Australian
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: businessman turned saboteur, and I think maybe because he was
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: a civilian who got involved, he might have had a
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: maybe a soft spot for this person who and again
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: attract him in charming that certainly didn't hurt, but maybe
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: had a soft spot for her, like being so eager
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: to sign up as a civilian and would eventually he
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: would eventually run what was known as the SOOE, the
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: Special Operations Executive, which were civilians. They were volunteer civilians
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: that were saboteurs that they except for sounds like Christine Granville,
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: would recruit to work for them, and do you know,
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: sneaky spy missions during World War Two.
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: Including sabotage and stuff. I saw. One example of what they.
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: Did was that's what a saboteur does.
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: The second the second Panzer Division were a real problem
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: in Europe for the Allies, and one of the mission
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: the SOE carried out was to remove the axle grease
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: from the trains that were transporting the Panzer Division and
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: their tanks and replace it with some sort of corrosive
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: abrasive oil. So just completely wreck the trains and set
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: them back for days. Yeah, not weeks. They did stuff
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: like that, And again, these are just ordinary people from
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: ordinary life who wanted to do something, and the fact
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: that they were ordinary people and could blend in made
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: them intensely valuable to carry out sabotage missions behind enemy lines.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. So she goes to Taylor. She's like, I
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: have an idea. First of all, I want a job,
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: And not only do I want a job, but I've
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: got an idea for that job already of how I
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: can just hit the ground running. I want to go
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: to Hungary, which at the time was neutral in World
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: War Two, and I can produce propaganda there. I'm an
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: excellent snow skier, so I can then skils the Tatra
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: Mountain range, get into poland set up communications there with
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: you guys, and I can get the whole network. I've
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: got people that will you know, from the Polish resistance
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: that will help me along, and I can. I can
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: do this over and over to your heart's content. And
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: this Australian guy said, well, it's gonna do an Australian accent,
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: but I decided not to at the last minute. I
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: don't know why I froz up. He said, sure, lady.
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: That was a different choice.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so he signed her up.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: He said, welcome on board. How about you do your
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: Murray impression of him hiring her. Everybody says that.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's new Zealander. I think Kidney, Yeah he is.
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: But even in Australia they think it's awesome.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: Okay, he said, prison.
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: So he hires her. But you can't, you know, at
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: the time, be like a Sooe agent overtly. You have
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: to have some sort of cover. And so she was
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: officially hired as the first aid nursing yeomanry fanny person
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: which had been around and for a while and it
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: was usually made up of wealthy women who donated their
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: own time, money, clothes, expenses, paid their own expenses to
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: basically volunteer for World War One. That was carried over
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: and it made a lot of sense because it also
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: meant that those women were typically left alone. Not only
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: were they women, there were women volunteers, and they were
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: wealthy women volunteers, so he just didn't mess with them
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: that much. So it was a really great cover for
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: a woman who was an soe operative.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she was also commissioned as a flight officer for
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: the British Women's Auxiliary Air Force. Again just another cover job,
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: but they let her do that first plan. They were like,
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: not only can you come aboard, but we think that
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: sounds pretty good to us. She was successful. She got
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: a Olympic skier, Polish Olympic skier and mountaineer named jan
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: Maris Arts to help her along across the border. They
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: skied across this two thousand meter you know, set of Alps.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: And apparently, as the story goes, and we should say
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: some of the stuff is completely verified, and some of
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: this stuff are stories that were told that maybe you know,
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: lathered up a little bit. Apparently she was known to
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: sort of lather up her own stories, but they're still
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: great stories. But as the story goes they skied by
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: dead bodies of like frozen people to get into Allied territory.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this seems pretty believable to me. That people were
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: trying to escape Poland and just froze to death on
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: the way.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: To Hungary makes for a good movie scene.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, they're really It really kind of soaks in
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: just what the Steaks are, what's at stake for their mission?
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean?
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah? And also I will say, if the makers of
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: this movie are listening, cast Josh and I as frozen
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: dead people, that'd be great. What an Easter egg that
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: would be.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: That would be wonderful. I'd be sitting there trying not
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: to smile. Frozen you want to take a break real quick.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: They could be like, look at him, he seemed happy
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: when he'd be bad.
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: Right, they say, it's a good way to go.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's take a break and I'm going to work
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: in my frozen that body. We'll be right back.
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: So, Chuck, you were saying that the myths around Christine
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: Granville are questionable, but it's probably one of those things
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: that there's some sort of kernel of truth to that. Sure, yeah, yeah,
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: But one of the other things that makes her so
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: compelling is that some of them, it's tough to distinguish
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: the myth from the actual story, because ones that are
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: documented are just as mind blowing as the ones that
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: are Like, is that true? And then in a lot
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: of cases, the story is true, but say, whoever the
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: bad guy is in that story might be mixed up,
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: and then maybe they're not quite as scary as the
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: bad guy that got you know, inserted into the story
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: later on, But the story's still true. And that was confusing.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: But later on, everybody, I'll point out the example I'm talking.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: About, okay, is that the one we're about to talk about.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: No, it's a different one. The one we're about to
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: talk about, I say, is the one where she was
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: on a train smuggling documents.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is during that same sort of mission
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: that she had originally proposed. She ended up doing that
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: like six or eight times, so it wasn't just a
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: one off. She was just skiing back and forth all
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: the time past Josh and Chuck, you know, didn't care
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: about us. But at one point there was a train
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: headed to Warsaw that she boarded. She saw that there
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: were arm guards, you know, you know, asking for papers
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: and possessions, going through people's stuff, And so she turns
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: on that charm and bats her eyes at a Gestapo
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: officer and was like, here, would you mind holding this package?
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: It's I shouldn't have it. It's black market tea. I'm
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: trying to bring it to my mother, who really loves
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: this stuff. But you know, I don't want to get caught.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: And so he's like, sure, for all I know, I'll
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: hold that for you. But of course in that box
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: were illegal documents that this guy was unknowingly hiding from
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: his Gestapo counterparts.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean like he like that surely would have
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: cost her her life had he opened the box. But
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: she was capable of charming even Gestapo agents, and that
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: was part of it too, Like it wasn't it wasn't
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: just the same type of charm for every person. That
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: was like a catch all type of charm. She was
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: also emotionally intelligent enough to be able to read individual
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: people or even whole groups of people, to figure out
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: what they what they wanted to hear, what would charm
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: them the most. So she could be very you know,
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: rigid and command She could also be like flirtatious and
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: helpless like whatever it called for. Yeah, she just could
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: recognize what the best course of action was and it
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: worked more often than not.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: For Yeah, she was really good at what she did.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: Eventually she would get married. Well, she met a guy
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: name on how would you pronounce that?
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: It's Andre?
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: Oh, it is Andre Kowerski. Boy, I tell you what,
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: Polish people have so many extra letters. I just celebrate
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: that so much. I have Polish friends, and it's always
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: amazing to me to look at the amount of letters
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: in those names.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so Andre is in this case is spelled A
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: and d r ZJ and then zej. Really comes as
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: a surprise at the end of us singler speakers.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: It really does. Anyway, great names. So she met this guy.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: He was a war hero, he was Polish, he had
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: one leg. He was also a spy. And she was
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: still married to Kaziki. But nevertheless she started up relationship
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: with Kowerski. It would be sort of a sort of
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: a lifelong love on and off, even though again she
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: would also have many other sort of short affairs and flings,
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: some job related, some seemingly not.
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a very popular story about her that she
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: had a really men would become obsessed with her, so
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: sometimes it was easier than others to get rid of guys.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: And in one case in Budapest, she had a knock
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: on her apartment door and a former suitor who she
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: left behind was begging her to come back and threaten
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: that if she didn't, he would shoot himself in his
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: genital organs.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: That was a trick quote, yeah.
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: And apparently he tried, but he missed and he ended
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: up shooting himself in the foot. So he was quite
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: serious about that. And I just can't help but wonder
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: like what her response was that, Like, did she bring
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: him in her apartment and help nurse them? Did she
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: go get help, what did she do? Because I could
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: see her like taking care of the guy, but also
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: at the same time being like, this doesn't mean we're
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: back together. I just, you know, don't want you to
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: bleed to death from shooting yourself in the foot kind
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: of thing.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: It really depends on who plays him in the movie.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: The guy.
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, if he's a sad sack, she might be like,
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: get in here, what have you done to yourself? Like
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: you literally shot yourself in the foot?
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: If it's played by some creep, then you know she
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: shuts the door and says, hobble off.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, good riddance to your.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: Uh so to you know, her dad had split and
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: died at this point, but we did want to follow
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: up about her mom. She was teaching at a secret
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: school in German occupied territory, not a good place to
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: be because I don't think we mentioned that her family,
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: although she did convert to Catholicism, I believe for marriage.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: She was Jewish and she was wealthy, and she wouldn't
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: stop teaching at that school, so she would not leave
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: the country with her daughter, and she was eventually captured,
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: and everyone basically agrees that she was probably killed.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: Yes, so both of her parents. I think her dad
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: already died in her twenties. I'm not sure if we
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: said that or not. So both of her parents are gone.
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: She has a younger brother, but for the most part,
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: she's just kind of free to live her life. Oh,
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: she has a husband back home, by the way, but
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: he's off doing his own thing for the Brits as
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: a secret agent too. And really, for all intents and purposes,
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: she's common law married to Andre Kowarski. Despite having all
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: of these separate flings that she's carrying out for her
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: duties as a spy in the SOE.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and Kowarski was also a spy.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. So her life is just dangerous from moment
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: to moment. So I'm sure she's just loving every second
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: of it. And like you said, she just kept going
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: back and forth across the Polish Hungarian border, faring people
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: and weapons and money and info. And she was working
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: inside Poland with a group called the Musketeers, who will
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: pose a problem for her later on because they were
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: like a resistance group, like you know from the Top Secret. Yeah,
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: that kind of thing. But they were French because of
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: chuckle out mouse And where were the other ones? Uh?
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: I don't know. Okay, I'm know what you're talking about.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: But they were the Musketeers, so of course they were French.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: So no, they were Polish.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: Oh you said they were French.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: I'm saying in the movie Top Secret they were French.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: Oh the Musketeers were Polish. I get what you mean.
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So the upshot that was totally unnecessary, by the way,
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: But the upshot of it is that from the Musketeer
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: she managed to cement her reputation among the spies, both
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: professional and amateur working for Britain when she brought information
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: to the Brits that the Nazis were about to break
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: their non aggression, packed with the Russians and invade the
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: Soviet Union. And it turned out that they invaded on
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: the very day that her intel said that they would.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah. But Winston Churchill himself called her out and said, hm,
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: she's my favorite spy, and everyone said, is that a thing?
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: Sure it is.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: In fact, Chuck, Winston Churchill sounded exactly like Murray from
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: Flight of the Contest.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: TOYI, this is a pretty good story, and a lot
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: of these are just little bits from her life of
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: course that make for you know, good stories and eventually
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: a good movie. But she was in January of nineteen
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: forty one, she had been arrested by Hungarian secret police
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: along with Kuwerski. You know, she's doing spying with him,
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: And after a couple of days of being interrogated, she
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: very clandestinely bites into her tongue enough that it starts
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: bleeding and she starts coughing up blood as if she
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: has TB. And everyone freaks out because nobody wanted TB
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: and so they released them.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: Great idea, Yeah, you know, I've been in possibly the
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: very rooms that she was being interrogated in in Budapest.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: They turned some of those places into museums that you
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: can go and visit. Wow, this is where the secret
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: police like interrogated people. It's it's nuts and it's really
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: well done. No, I didn't, but it's like, really, I
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: can't remember the name of the museum. There can't be
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: too many of them, but Budapest has a few attractions
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: like that, or kind of dark tourist attractions that are
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: really worth visiting if you ever go.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: I'll have to ask Himaly because she went to museums there,
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: I bet I bet that was one of them.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: I'll bet it was. And now, but she also went
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: to the Hospital in the Rock, which was a literal
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: underground hospital built into a cave system that they preserved.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: It's they have wax dummies like hanging out. That makes
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: it even cooler.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: Do any of them look like us?
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: No? But one of them smiling inappropriately?
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: Okay, so all right. Eventually she and Korski are exposed
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: as spies, like their cover is blown, and they still
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: want to do their so they adopt new identities. This
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: is when she finally becomes Christine Granville. Korski became Andrew Kennedy,
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: which is kind of funny when you think about it.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: And she, like you said, at the beginning, she was
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: Grandville from there on out, because that's sort of where
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: she became even more famous and wanted to hang on
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: to that name. And this is where her birthday gets
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: a little confusing, because she gave herself a different birthdate
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: obviously to assume this new identity, which made her probably
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: like six to eight years younger, And so whenever there
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: are stories about her, there can be some confusion about
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: whether or not she was like in her early to
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: mid twenties or like mid thirties when a lot of
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: this is going on.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so she ended up bouncing off to Cairo to
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: spy on the Polish Intelligence Service. So get this for confusing.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: Poland is occupied by Nazi Germany. Yeah, but the Polish
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: Intelligence Service still exists and is working against Nazi Germany.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: And at the same time, the SOE in part is
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: has infiltrated Poland with Polish civilians working as operatives, and they,
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: as far as the Polish Intelligence Service is concerned, is
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: working against the Polish Intelligence Services. Interests and is making
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: life hard on them. So there was a rivalry between
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: SOE operatives in Poland and the Polish intelligence services that
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: ended up actually becoming problematic for Christine Granville because the
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: intelligence services basically denounced she and Kowerski as if not spies,
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: like double agents, then they were being manipulated by double
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: agents in the Musketeers. I told you the Musketeers would
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: become problematic for them. This is where that happened.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think because the Musketeers were this freelance civilian
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: group and you know, maybe they had been infiltrated by
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: Axis spies. They at the very least were thought to
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: have been infiltrated, so they uh. And we mentioned that
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: that Jesseki, her her still husband, was also a spy.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: He heard about what was going on. He seemed like
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: a pretty stand up guy because he heard about what
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: was going on to her and to now Andrew Kennedy
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: previously Kowerski, and he was like, you know what, I'm
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: not going to stand for this. I'm out of here,
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: And that was kind of a real stand up thing
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: to do. He resigned. Eventually, She said, you know, I
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: don't know if you're trying to like, get back together
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: with me, but I'm still with I'm still with this
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: guy Kowerski. So I appreciate what you did, but that's
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: not going to end.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: He was like, oh I see, yeah, yeah, man, poor guy.
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: So that kind of settled that. I think he kind
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: of bows out of the story at this point.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, But did they stay married.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: Olivia, who helped us with this, said their relationship dissolved,
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: but it already sounded fairly dissolved. I just don't know
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: if they were officially not married at that point.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think it would have mattered much practically speaking. No,
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: you're right, but she and Kowerski now Kennedy hung around
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: Cairo for the next year while the Brits investigated them
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: and whether they were actually spies or not. And the
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: Brits later on, so they were fully aware that they
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: weren't spies and that they were loyal and that there
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: was really no problem, but they were having to indulge
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: the Polish intelligence services because they needed the Polish intelligence services.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: And yet it was the Brits who had gotten the
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: whole thing stirred up by commanding Kowerski not to report
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: to the Polish intelligence Services and only to report to them. Yeah,
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: so that's what brought the first animosity up between Kowerski
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: and then by association Granville with the Polish intelligence services,
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: who denounced them later as spies unfairly. But they got
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: cleared ultimately that investigation and they got back to work.
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she got back to work in France. Actually, July
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: of nineteen forty four, she goes to France. Now she
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: is using the name Pauline armand she literally parachutes into
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: the south of France. She's going there to you know,
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: get get involved in the resistance there and start to
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: sort of help out, which eventually the American invasion. So
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: she sort of laying the groundwork of what was to
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: come for the United States involvement. She was, and this
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: guy ends up being pretty important. She was the second
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: command to a guy named Frances How do you pronounce
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: that last.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: Name, Freggie Camertz Camers cam Camers, Yeah, because the the
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: rts would would all be pronounced.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: Okay, well that sounds about right. He led the SOEES
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: independent French. He was organizing sabotage, grill operations, saboteur missions,
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: stuff like that, and Livia also points out, in true
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: move fashion that when she was in France, she had
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: cinaide tablets and knives sewn into the hems of her skirt.
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the knife was strapped to her thigh,
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: but it was roundly described as razor sharpened. That she
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: carried it with her at all times. And yet she
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: so she knew her way around a knife. I guess
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: she didn't like guns very much. Her her weapon of choice,
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: get this chuck was grenades. Yeah, because she could take
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: out multiple people at once. So she's like, of course
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: I'm going to use grenades. So I mean, just one
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: more thing that It's like, wow, this this lady is
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: really astounding. Like her favorite weapon was grenades. That's not
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: the question. That's not the answer most people are expecting
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: when you're asked that question.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: No, and that that grenades actually play a part in
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: one story that and this is one that you know,
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: could be a little gussied up because it's written differently
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: in different biographies. Again, would make for a great movie.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: But she stopped at the Italian border. You know, they
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: say put your hands up, and she's got you know, grenades,
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: she you know, she holds up her arms and she's
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: got grenades and she said, I'm gonna blow you all up,
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: and the Germans run screaming in the movie.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: Version, right, So this was the story I was referring
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: to earlier, where if you switch out the bad guys,
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: it's still an amazing story, but not quite as thrilling. Yeah,
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: So this was described the she was stopped by German officers,
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: and the German officers fled, So she scared off Nazis
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: with this bluff, or it might have even been a
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: bluff in reality. The other biography says these were Italian conscripts,
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: So these were soldiers who had basically been forced into soldiering,
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: who were patrolling the border, probably pretty low level soldiers
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: that you can imagine might run off a little faster
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: than maybe Nazi officers at the time. So that's what
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: I was talking about. The story's probably true, but you
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: just kind of add a little thing here and take
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: this person out there, and all of a sudden, it's
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: just eye popping.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. At one point in another story, she was
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: carrying and this is this is cool kind of spycraft
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: stuff I never thought about. If you carry a paper
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: map and you're getting padded down that map might rustle
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: and crunch and make some noise, so they would carry
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: silk maps so they wouldn't make any noise. And she
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: got caught with one of these silk maps, but before
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: they could find it, she yanked off her silkhead scarf
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: and tied up her map into her head and spoke
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: perfect French. I don't think we mentioned, but of course
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: she spoke several languages right, perfectly, yeah, and impersonated a
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: local and apparently got out of there.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: Funny enough, she spoke zero German.
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean she might not needed to if she
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: was pretending to be everything, but German.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: She spoke German shepherd though, ah, god, this is the
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: best one.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: I think. You go ahead, no, you know you all right,
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: there's one story where, you know, the Germans send in
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: the German shepherd to root them out, and I guess
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: they were in the bushes or something, and the German
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: shepherd finds her and she is able to charm this
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: German shepherd into just kind of laying down and getting scretches.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: While the Germans are whistling for this dog to come back.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: This German shepherd is like, no, this is my new.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: Mama, right, the Germans are like Fritz here.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd better be in the movie.
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: Oh, we would have to be.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: But what would be great is if they use that
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: like nineteen fifties film trick where they just play the
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: dog standing up and reverse to make it laid.
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: Down a funny. It's sort of uncanny. It's like, wait,
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: what was it? What just happened?
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, someone was off with that.
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: Oh that's great.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: So and I'm an extra in the background, and the
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: bushes just smiling like if it's hilarious.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: They're like, wait, isn't that that polish?
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: Right? So, and you guys might be out there thinking, like, guys,
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: you're just sitting there rattling off story after Sorry, this
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: is essentially a timeline of what she went through. Like
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: everything we just said after she got to France happened
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: in France. Like that's how incredibly prolific she was. I
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: think this all would have happened in nineteen forty three,
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: nineteen forty four, I believe.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: So, I mean, this stuff is happening to her on
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: like a daily basis, and I should say not happening
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: to her. She's going out and finding this kind of
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: thing and loving, loving, life right. And then finally, in
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: nineteen forty four, she undertook what became like her most
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: legendary mission. And it sounds like she kind of took
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: it on herself, which is something you could do as
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: an Sooe agent to a large extent, as long as
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: you were screwing up the enemy, they were fine with
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: whatever you were doing. And then I guess it was
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: the next year, in August of nineteen forty four, she
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: undertook what was probably her most well known, most celebrated mission.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: And from what I can tell, Chuck, she undertook it
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: on her own accord. She was not ordered to do this.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: She just was like, I'm going to go do this.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: Sounds like a great time for a cliffhanger. Okay, all right,
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: we'll be back with the rest of the story right
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: after this. All right, great cliffhanger, my friend. You really
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: know how to set them.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: Up, thanks, sure, you know how to knock them down.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: People say our show isn't scripted. That's a great line reading.
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: Actually we're the people that say that. So this was
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: August nineteen forty four, Camar, Is that how it's pronounced?
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: You said?
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: Why not?
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: All right? Kahmera and a couple of other French resistance
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: members were captured again by the Gestapo and they were
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: about to be put to death, and guess who steps
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: in to save the day.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: Christine Granville. Oh take it away?
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: Oh okay. So she shows up at this I guess
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: a French prison that they were being interrogated at and
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: we're about to be executed and said, hey, I am
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: the niece of General Bernard Montgomery who's on his way
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: with a whole bunch of allies that are about to
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: overtake this, and you, French collaborators, you're going to pay
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: a dear, dear price if you execute these men right
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: before they get here. They're going to take it out
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: on you and you're going to hate life. And apparently
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: they said, all right, we're properly scared, but can you
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: sweeten the pod a little bit? And she said, okay,
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: what about two million francs and they said sold. So
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: she handed off the bribe and they took off and
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: left these three really really important French resistance leaders to live.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: She's saved their lives. And apparently after they left the prison,
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: they were like, I can't believe you just did that,
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: and she said it just kind of hit her finally,
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: like just how dangerous it was. It hadn't even occurred
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: to her that they might be like, no, we're not,
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: and you're captured now too, and we're going to exit
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: you as well. Because she was just so focused on
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: what she needed to do and going to do it
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: and knowing she could do it, it didn't even occur
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: to her that she was actually putting herself in incredible danger.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was amazing. Apparently, she turned in her report,
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: typed it up, handed it in to the SOE and
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: their reaction was quote good reading. I'm going to make
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: sure that I keep on Christine's side in the future,
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: and another agent said, so am I she frightens me
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: to death. Very nice, Yeah, thank you.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: So the Allies won the war spoiler alert, and especially
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: in Europe, i should say, and as a result, Granville
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: was awarded some pretty hefty awards. She actually wanted to
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: remember she's a civilian, a Polish civilian, and yet she
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: was given the honor of Officer of the Order of
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: the British Empire. If you get that medal, you are
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: a man British and at least a lieutenant colonel. She
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: was none of those things, and they still said, you
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: were so amazing on our you know, on our behalf,
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: we're going to give you that. And she also got
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: another one, the George Medal too.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: Or the in Poland they would call it the years.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: Here's the medal?
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: Wait, who is the other yearsy? Did we even find him?
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: Her second husband, the diplomat to come to Ethiopia was
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: that's right.
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: That's right, okay, and dad, all right, I just want
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: to make sure we cover that. What was that? The
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: French award? She went to the quad de Deger.
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: Yes, the Cross of Wars diitches, that's right.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: So this all seems like, oh great, this is amazing,
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: I bet you. After the war, the British government really
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: took care of her and saw to it that she,
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: you know, had the best job in government. Not true.
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: They kind of turned their back on her in a
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: lot of ways. She tried to get citizenship and it
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: took her quite a few years to get it all
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: the way until nineteen forty nine. They cut off her
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: financial support. They basically said, well, you know, what kind
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: of job can she get? A quote? She cannot type,
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: she has no experience whatever for office work and is
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: altogether not a very easy person to employ, which maybe
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: she wasn't the easiest person to employ in those regards,
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: but she was an exceptionally intelligent, crafty, resourceful human and
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: the fact that they couldn't find work for her is shameful.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so or wouldn't find work for her, wouldn't. I
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: think that's it because Churchill lost reelection shortly after the war,
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: and he was the protector of the SOE, and especially Granville,
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: who he cited was his favorite spy, which is a
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: big deal. Churchill loved the SOE. He instructed them to
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: set Europe ablaze, was his quote, but with him out
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: of power, they didn't have that cover from on high anymore.
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: And just like with the Polish Intelligence Service, the professional
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: intelligence people very much resented the amateurs, thinking that they
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: were doing the same work with the same quality as
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: the professionals. So they were. I don't think it was
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: just her specifically, but I think a lot of the
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: SOE was turned out, although I think some actually were
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: kind of broad aboard to be professionals, but she definitely wasn't. No.
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: So where did she work. She worked as a housekeeper,
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: She worked as a switchboard operator. She worked as a
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: cruise ship waitress. This is what her life was after that,
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: you know, exciting time of war, doing some of the
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: most dangerous things you could imagine, many of which upon
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: our own initiative. And she ends up working as a
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: housekeeper and a switchboard operator and other sort of all
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: her jobs. Eventually she would live in a house run
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: by the Polish Relief Society. There is another rumor, and
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: this is good stuff for the movie, but the character
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: of vesper Lynde and Casino Royale the Great James Bond
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: novel and films apparently was based on Grandville because she
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: reportedly had an affair with Ian Fleming, the author of
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: the James Bond novels.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty neat, did you know. I think we talked
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: about it before. But Ian Fleming and Roald Dahl, the
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: guy who created Charlie Chocolate Factory, they were both spies
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: for the Brits in America.
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: I just find that endlessly fascinating.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we should do it episode on this stuff. It's good.
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: Okay. So Christine Granville actually had reached the point in
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: her forties where she was ready to settle down with
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: Cowerskey and was like, Okay, we're gonna be He's a
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: Kennedy after all, so right where it's gonna start. He
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: was deathly afraid of Wi Fi and she was like,
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: what's wi Fi? And He's like, just wait and see.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: So she was ready to settle down, started a new normal,
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: everyday life. And she was visited at that Polish Relief
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: Society hotel or boarding house by a guy that she
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: had either had an affair with or had turned down,
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: who was a coworker on the cruise ship with her.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: His name was Dennis Muldowney, and he stalked her and
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: approached her in the lobby of that boarding house and
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: stabbed her in the heart and killed her because he
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: was so obsessed with her. He said later that to
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: kill is the final possession, which is an awful sentiment,
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: and I mean, good God. And he also said that
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: he was still very much in love with her, so
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: he murdered her out of just jealous obsession, like if
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: he couldn't have her, no one could. And that's how
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: Christine Granville, after all the danger she put herself in,
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: after all the services she provided to the allies, the
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: good guys objectively, the good guys in World War Two.
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: She was murdered by a jealous jerk.
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and in her what sort of early forties, still
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: a young woman, very very sad, yeah, by this crazy stalker. Kowarski,
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: for his part aka Kennedy, lived till nineteen eighty eight
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: and his ashes, at his request, were flown to London
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: to be interred alongside Grandville's. Kuwarski and we mentioned that
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: khmera guy was a good guy. Then three other guys
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: said who had been close with Granville. They formed the
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: panel to protect the memory of Christine Granville after her
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: death to you know, she had a life full of
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: you know, marital affairs and sexual encounters and things like that,
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: and they didn't want her story to be just sort
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: of scandalized I think after her death and for people
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: to focus in on that kind of thing. So they
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: actually blocked biographies successfully for a while for coming out,
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: blocked articles from coming out. Eventually, though, articles and biographies
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: would come out that would tell the full, sort of
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: proud story of her life and not in a scandalous way.
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: Right, And the whole thing kind of like tilted. The
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: world showed that it was ready for to appreciate Christine Granville.
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: When Claire Mully, the historian released the book The Spy
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: Who Loved colon the Secrets and Lives of Christine Granville,
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: that came out in twenty twelve, and it's like the
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: definitive biography on Granville, and it was extremely well received.
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: And Chuck, you can rest assured that there's a good
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: chance we will be frozen extras in the movie because
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: they are making at least one movie about it.
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, at one point Kate Winslet was attached to something.
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: Would have loved to have seen that, because Kate Winslet
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: is the best. But there's one called a Partisan that
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: supposedly is shooting now with Roman Planski's daughter, Uh Morgane
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: playing Grandville. Yep, who knew. I didn't know I had
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: a daughter.
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: I didn't know either, but that that adds up French
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: Polish actress. Sure. Yeah, Malcolm McDowell's in it too, And
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: I don't. I can't, I just can't. I can't feel
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: settled when he's on the screen.
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: Now, he's he's old. Who would he be playing?
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: Oh maybe Churchill?
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: M It's got to be Gary Oldman or somebody.
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: Right, Uh, you know, that's Andy McDowell's father, right, No, No,
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: I swear to God, that's Andy McDowell's father.
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: Malcolm mcdowells. Yes. I thought she was like from the
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: American South.
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: She is. She was born and raised in North Carolina.
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: But that is her father.
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: Wow, I had no idea. Yeah, I mean know Margaret
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: Qualley is his granddaughter.
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: Then I guess yes, and she's married to Jack Aaron Off.
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: No, Wade, Andy McDowell's.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: Not, Yes, she is, Okay, Then she's Roddy McDowell's daughter. Okay, close, close,
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: both British, same last name. One was the regular, one
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: was the dude from Clock Reforms.
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: Well, now I feel like I don't have to check you,
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: but now I gotta look up Roddy McDowell.
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: No, that one, I'm sure of. Look it up.
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: Are you sure?
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: We'll wait, all right, Well say something else, like, you know,
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: why don't you read listener mail or something?
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: Oh? Well, how about this, I'll sit you up for
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: listener mail while you're looking, and you can tell us
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: on the other side of the chime whether I'm right
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: or not.
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: If you want to know more about Christine Granville, you
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: can check out Claire Mully's book The Spy Who Loved
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: And there's plenty of other great stuff on the internet
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: to read about her too. And then look out for
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: me and Chuck in the movie. And since I said
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: look out for me and check in the movie, it's
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: time for listener mail.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: All right, I'm gonna call this, uh Roddy McDowell was
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: actually gay and never married?
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: Good lord? Okay, well, then let's let's reverse this course.
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: Who is Andy McDowell's father.
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: Well, that's what I was going to say. That would
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: be the sensible thing to do. I do know Margaret
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: Qualley's her daughter.
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: I know that. No, that's definitely true. She was in Made.
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: Have you seen Made?
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: You know? I never saw that. It's on the list.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: It is really good. Andy McDowell, who I'm not usually
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: a huge fan of as an actress. I don't think
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: she's well used very very much as far as characters go.
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: She really nails it as Margaret Qualley's kind of like
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: ne'er do well mom who's still trying to be in
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: her life. It's just just a really great, kind of
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: gut wrenching movie.
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I can also recommend while we're here, the
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: movie Sanctuary. It was out last year with Margaret Qually
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: and who's the guy. I really like him a lot.
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: He was in Girls Christopher Abbott, of course, and it's
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: a sort of a two person movie and it's really
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: really good, highly recommended. And by the way, in case
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: she wondered, any McDowell's dad was a lumber executive from
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: South Carolina.
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: Named Malcolm McDowell, who is also the actor.
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: Maryon the Saint Pierre McDowell. Boy, wow, that was a journey.
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: I've got another movie for you, since we're talking about movies.
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: I got two as a matter of fact. One my
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: niece Mela is in a movie that's out on the
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: big screen called The Hell. Yes, okay, it's called The Hill.
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: It's a super duper Christian movie, like legitimately, like they
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: call out Jesus Christ. But the Preacher's not like set
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: up to be like a demonstration of hypocrisy. He's actually
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: like a preacher. Usually not my genre, but and I
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: probably wouldn't have seen it had my niece up in it.
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: But it is actually really good. And Dennis Quaid is
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: the father, the main character, and he does an excellent job.
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: And it's just a it's worth seeing. It's pretty uplifting,
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: and Mila just knocks it out of the park as
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: the young version of the main dude's love interest.
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: Boy.
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: Mela is just killing yes, and that is so great.
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: You guys must be so.
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it was so cool to go to the
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: like just a normal movie theater and get popcorn and
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: then see our niece up there on the big screen.
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: I love it. That is amazing.
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: The other one was The Black Hole, the Disney one
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: from nineteen seventy nine. I just had an itch to
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: watch it, and man, does it hold up?
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: You think so?
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: M hm? Okay, yep, it's even better than I remember
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: it as a kid. All right, Okay, sorry, was it? Chuck?
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna call this ten year old request. We don't
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: usually read requests, but we like hearing from our young listeners,
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: and this is from Henry. Dear Josh and Chuck. My
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: name is Henry. I'm ten years old. Really love your
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: podcast and I listen to it every day on the
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: way to school. I'm writing in mainly because I think
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: you should make an episode about the psychology where if
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: you paint all the walls of a room black or
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: a different dark color. It makes the said room feel
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: much smaller. Now. I know I could just read an
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: article about this, but that would just be boring. Plus
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: I'd rather hear it from you, guys. So whatever time
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: of day you're reading this, farewell to you. I would
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: love to see that episode come out. Bye and that
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: is Henry and Henry. I think that would make a
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: great short stuff yeap. How color affects the perception of size.
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: I love it nice.
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: Thanks a lot, Henry. We appreciate that. We appreciate your
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: charming character as well. Thank you for adding that to
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: the email. It could have been totally boring and straightforward
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: and you didn't do that, so thanks.
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: That's right, Go Henry.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: If you want to be like Henry and have us
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: say go Henry, but with your name instead of Henry,
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: you can send us an email to Stuff podcast at
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: iHeartRadio dot com.
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.