Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #146 Jason Flom with Jamal Trulove

Transcript

#146 Jason Flom with Jamal Trulove · Wrongful Conviction

0:01
Speaker 1: On the night of July twenty third, two thousand and seven,
0:04
Speaker 1: Jamal true Love was hanging out in the common area
0:07
Speaker 1: of San Francisco's Sunnydale Projects with his younger brother, Joshua.
0:11
Speaker 1: Jamal's friend sel Kuka, drove up intoxicated, ripping off the
0:15
Speaker 1: side view mirror from Joshua's car. Jamal got between Cel
0:19
Speaker 1: and his brother. Then gunfire in the air would send
0:22
Speaker 1: Cel into an alcohol fueled rage. In search of a
0:25
Speaker 1: gun himself, Jamal tried to come sell again, who pushed
0:29
Speaker 1: him away and punched another man. Frustrated and fed up,
0:32
Speaker 1: Jamal left the scene, only to turn in time to
0:35
Speaker 1: witness his friend Cell being gunned down in the street. Now,
0:39
Speaker 1: since snitching is a surefire away to be sent to
0:41
Speaker 1: the same fate, Jamal kept his mouth shut. Cel's cousin,
0:45
Speaker 1: Priscilla Lualamaga, would go downtown to identify the shooter she
0:49
Speaker 1: claimed to see from her second story window, only to
0:51
Speaker 1: pass over Jamal's mugshot that was in plain sight. Police
0:55
Speaker 1: pressured her to name Jamal so they could coerce the
0:58
Speaker 1: identity of the shooter. Either he would name the killer
1:02
Speaker 1: or he'd go down for the murder. Himself. Jamal would
1:06
Speaker 1: receive fifty years to life. The prosecutor's closing argument would
1:10
Speaker 1: point to l Wallamaga's bravery in light of the supposed
1:14
Speaker 1: thread of Jamal Truelove. This comment, unsupported by evidence and
1:19
Speaker 1: unobjected to by counsel, would ultimately lead to a new
1:22
Speaker 1: trial in which Jamal's new lawyers would be able to
1:25
Speaker 1: successfully argue that ballistic evidence at the autopsy report proved
1:29
Speaker 1: that the shooter was out of the Wallamaga's second story view.
1:33
Speaker 1: Jamal was finally set free in twenty fifteen. This is
1:38
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction
1:55
Speaker 1: with Jason Flamm. That's me. I'm your host, and today
1:57
Speaker 1: I'm very excited because this this is a story I've
2:01
Speaker 1: wanted to tell from quite some time, and that's primarily
2:05
Speaker 1: because of the person who survived this incredible ordeal, Jamal Truelove.
2:09
Speaker 1: He has the best name on top of everything else.
2:11
Speaker 1: So Jamal, welcome, Hey, thanks for having me.
2:14
Speaker 2: Jason.
2:15
Speaker 1: Yeah. Man, Like I always say, I'm sorry you have
2:17
Speaker 1: to be here, but I'm really happy that you are here.
2:20
Speaker 1: So Jamal, this story touches me on a personal level
2:23
Speaker 1: because you were in the entertainment business before this horrible
2:27
Speaker 1: misidentification and all the other things that went wrong happened
2:31
Speaker 1: to you. Can you talk a little bit about that?
2:33
Speaker 1: Because you grew up in San Francisco.
2:35
Speaker 2: Right, Yes, grew up in San Francisco Sunnydale Projects. Always
2:41
Speaker 2: wanted to get into entertainment within music and acting, and.
2:46
Speaker 1: The ball was starting to bounce your way, so to speak. Right,
2:48
Speaker 1: because at the time of this incident, you had been
2:52
Speaker 1: recently featured on the reality TV show Popped, the show
2:56
Speaker 1: called I Love New York Too. Right, you were just
2:58
Speaker 1: a kid from the project with no connections, but you
3:01
Speaker 1: were making it happen anyway. How did you do that?
3:04
Speaker 2: Well, initially I was recording music. My friend had a
3:07
Speaker 2: studio which he would lend me some time to get
3:10
Speaker 2: into actually record, and then I had an opportunity to
3:15
Speaker 2: audition for this character for this show called I Love
3:19
Speaker 2: New York Too. So I figured if I could get
3:23
Speaker 2: on the show and put a name to a face,
3:26
Speaker 2: then I will get the exposure that I need to
3:29
Speaker 2: shine on to my music and to ultimately get into film.
3:33
Speaker 1: And sure enough you had now gone and shot this show.
3:36
Speaker 1: Which did you shoot in La or yeah, it was
3:38
Speaker 1: based in La and so this was like an exciting
3:41
Speaker 1: time for you. How old were you at the time, Jamal.
3:44
Speaker 2: Well, I started recording music when I was sixteen years old.
3:47
Speaker 2: When I ended up landing on the show, I was freshly.
3:51
Speaker 1: Twenty one, So a kid with big dreams and aspirations
3:55
Speaker 1: and you know, the ability to really manifest those things.
3:59
Speaker 1: And I think people let meet you now still see
4:01
Speaker 1: that same spark. It makes it a certain way. It
4:03
Speaker 1: makes this wrong for conviction more tragic. So, Jamal, your
4:08
Speaker 1: life took a terrible turn because of events that occurred
4:12
Speaker 1: around eleven pm on July twenty third of two thousand
4:16
Speaker 1: and seven. And of course you know what I'm referring to,
4:18
Speaker 1: but it was that night that twenty eight year old
4:22
Speaker 1: sel Kuka, was a resident in your housing project, was
4:26
Speaker 1: shot nine times. How did this happen? How did you
4:30
Speaker 1: find out about it? And how did you get misidentified
4:33
Speaker 1: as the shooter.
4:34
Speaker 2: We were all kicking it in the projects in the
4:37
Speaker 2: area that would typically chill at and the incident had
4:40
Speaker 2: happened between Sale Kuka and my little brother Joshua. Sale
4:45
Speaker 2: was intoxicated driving up the street where he came real
4:50
Speaker 2: close to my brother's car and ripped off his Sime mirror,
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Speaker 2: and you know, I've seen it but didn't think too
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Speaker 2: much of it. Then somebody yelled down to me like
5:01
Speaker 2: there was some type of altercation between him and my brother.
5:04
Speaker 2: So I come through to diffuse the situation. I seen
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Speaker 2: how my brother was contorting his face. Sells, one of
5:11
Speaker 2: my good friends. He's got some liquor in them, so
5:14
Speaker 2: you know, he's ramped up. He's not trying to take
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Speaker 2: no blame, and they're getting closer to each other where
5:20
Speaker 2: it's gonna end up, you know, turning into a fight.
5:22
Speaker 2: So I intervened, you know, I told both of them chill, relaxed.
5:27
Speaker 2: Sale was hyped up to start being kind of a
5:30
Speaker 2: crowd people looking on, and next you know, we hear
5:35
Speaker 2: some gunshots going off kind of like I guess in
5:38
Speaker 2: the air, and I think, you know that field Sell
5:41
Speaker 2: that much more to feel some type of way, and
5:44
Speaker 2: he started heading down saying that he was gonna go
5:47
Speaker 2: get a gun. So me, I remember some of my
5:52
Speaker 2: other friends used to you know, kind of contain his
5:54
Speaker 2: anger when he's in this type of stake. So me
5:58
Speaker 2: trying to prevent anything from escalating. I kind of followed him,
6:02
Speaker 2: and he was asking somebody one of our other friends
6:04
Speaker 2: to give him a gun, and I'm telling him, no, like, bro,
6:08
Speaker 2: there ain't no reason for all of that. But he like,
6:10
Speaker 2: you know, m mess out here shooting and I'm like that
6:13
Speaker 2: ain't got nothing to do with us or this situation.
6:15
Speaker 2: So I got like close up on him. I like
6:18
Speaker 2: held him, like, you know, in a kind of bear hug,
6:20
Speaker 2: and he's like way bigger than me. I'm probably like
6:23
Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty pounds soaking wet at that point,
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Speaker 2: and he's like two twenty two thirty at least, and
6:30
Speaker 2: he's listening, but you could definitely tell that he's kind
6:33
Speaker 2: of drunk. And then he kind of bust out of
6:36
Speaker 2: my bear hug in an angry type of way, and
6:40
Speaker 2: at that point it felt like, you know, he wasn't
6:43
Speaker 2: trying to hear me or calm the altercation. So I
6:47
Speaker 2: ended up leaving across the street, which I had my
6:49
Speaker 2: car inside the parking lot. I had a female friend
6:52
Speaker 2: inside the car. I bent down to let her know
6:56
Speaker 2: that we're about to get up out of here, and
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Speaker 2: by the time I stood up from the side of
7:01
Speaker 2: the car, I seen sale skipping around the building right
7:07
Speaker 2: there from off of the street, and I seen the
7:10
Speaker 2: perpetrator already holding the gun in the shooting position. Before
7:16
Speaker 2: I could say stop, gunshots had already rained off. So
7:20
Speaker 2: I just got down until all the gunshots was overwood.
7:24
Speaker 2: And typically in situations like this in the project, regardless
7:27
Speaker 2: if you did something or if you didn't do it,
7:30
Speaker 2: you just h tail up out of there. So that's
7:33
Speaker 2: what I ended up doing.
7:34
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna ask you point blank, did you know
7:38
Speaker 1: at the time who the actual shooter was.
7:40
Speaker 2: Yes, I did, And there.
7:42
Speaker 1: Were a lot of witnesses. Thirty or more witnesses were
7:45
Speaker 1: there because as you described, it was a street team,
7:48
Speaker 1: a lot of people hanging out, of course, and it
7:50
Speaker 1: seemed like this a lot of people are going to
7:52
Speaker 1: be scared to come forward. Nobody wants to be labeled
7:54
Speaker 1: to snitch.
7:55
Speaker 2: Because I know what that actually means. Something happened to
7:58
Speaker 2: me my family.
7:59
Speaker 1: But one woman did come forward and she became a
8:02
Speaker 1: key part of this whole awful scenario, right And this
8:07
Speaker 1: woman's name was Priscilla Lualamaga, and she claimed to have
8:12
Speaker 1: seen the whole thing from her second story window. Already,
8:15
Speaker 1: my spidy sense to start tingling because it's eleven o'clock
8:18
Speaker 1: at night, it's dark. It sounds like a pretty dicey
8:21
Speaker 1: scenario to think that she's going to identify somebody. But okay,
8:25
Speaker 1: so she told police that her distant relative was just deceased.
8:30
Speaker 1: Sell Kuka was chasing another man around a car who
8:33
Speaker 1: she identified as your brother, Joshua. And then she further
8:38
Speaker 1: claimed that while chasing Joshua, Kuka bumped into a knockdown
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Speaker 1: another man who got up, chased him down the street
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Speaker 1: and sloping downhill and open fire close range, so this
8:48
Speaker 1: is important. She gets taken to the police station and
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Speaker 1: showing thirty four mug shots that were set up on
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Speaker 1: a bulletin board, and she recognized many of the mugshots
8:56
Speaker 1: at spaces from her neighborhood, understandably. But then in the
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Speaker 1: two hours she was in that room with the bulletin
9:00
Speaker 1: board of mugshots, she didn't recognize your face, correct, which
9:05
Speaker 1: was immediately above Joshua Bradley's mugshots. So that's even weirder, right,
9:08
Speaker 1: it was right there in front of her face, and
9:10
Speaker 1: she still didn't recognize it, okay, correct. So two days
9:13
Speaker 1: later the cops come to her workplace and take us
9:15
Speaker 1: from there.
9:16
Speaker 2: Two days later the police came to her workplace, but
9:21
Speaker 2: the day before that, it is real interesting that they
9:24
Speaker 2: actually came to her house showing her a mugshot picture
9:29
Speaker 2: which we believe to have been me, and they denying
9:34
Speaker 2: that it was me that didn't run side by side
9:37
Speaker 2: to what you ultimately ended up coming out when it
9:40
Speaker 2: comes down to the lineup and the mug shots. So
9:43
Speaker 2: they told her that if we were to bring a
9:45
Speaker 2: photo lineup with the person who did it inside the
9:48
Speaker 2: lineup which be able to identify it. So the next
9:51
Speaker 2: day they went to her job. They brought her a
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Speaker 2: six pack lineup with really me wearing an orange jumpsuit
10:00
Speaker 2: and everybody else in playing clothes. But she had already
10:03
Speaker 2: identified the other people, you know, not being the person
10:06
Speaker 2: and people that she already knows.
10:09
Speaker 1: It's even worse than that, right, because of the fact
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Speaker 1: that she said that you quote unquote looks like the
10:15
Speaker 1: guy who could have shot Kouka, right, So that's pretty
10:18
Speaker 1: damn weak.
10:19
Speaker 2: The six pack lineup, it had two standout things. It
10:23
Speaker 2: had me inside of an orange jumpsuit and then it
10:27
Speaker 2: also had the dates that came off of the system
10:31
Speaker 2: when they brought up the mug shots where my date
10:35
Speaker 2: was dated different than the other dates that came off
10:38
Speaker 2: of the system. Because they had me down as the
10:41
Speaker 2: shooter on day one.
10:43
Speaker 1: Why do you think the detectives had it out for
10:47
Speaker 1: you or they just like, whoever, we just got to
10:48
Speaker 1: close the case. It doesn't matter.
10:50
Speaker 2: I wasn't somebody that was out there. I was always
10:52
Speaker 2: trying to do something positive. I was doing music, you know,
10:55
Speaker 2: I'll hang around, of course, but with my name coming
10:59
Speaker 2: up on the day that actually happened, whether they wanted
11:03
Speaker 2: questions from me or them saying oh it was the
11:06
Speaker 2: guy that Jamal was with, they was like, okay, this
11:10
Speaker 2: is how we gonna get him. We're gonna pressure him.
11:12
Speaker 2: It's aid either tail on the person who did it,
11:15
Speaker 2: or we're gonna make sure that he goes down for this.
11:18
Speaker 1: And then no weapon was recovered, but hl casings were
11:23
Speaker 1: found down hill from the body, in the trail leading
11:26
Speaker 1: up to the body, which means that what she said
11:29
Speaker 1: was false because she said the shooter was chasing Kuka downhill.
11:32
Speaker 1: So now we know, and they should have known that
11:35
Speaker 1: she didn't know what the fuck she was talking about.
11:37
Speaker 2: So to be honest right, her representation of what actually happened.
11:42
Speaker 2: If anything, she could have only seen what was on
11:45
Speaker 2: the side of that building. She didn't see when the
11:48
Speaker 2: person was actually shooting.
11:50
Speaker 1: She told police that Sela Kuka was chasing another man
11:53
Speaker 1: around the car and then Kooka bumped into a knockdown
11:57
Speaker 1: another man who got up, chased him down the street
11:59
Speaker 1: and sloping down on hill and open fire close range.
12:02
Speaker 2: It wasn't me who sail had knocked down?
12:05
Speaker 1: What was her agenda here? Do you know?
12:07
Speaker 2: Her whole thing? And the family which I was deeply
12:11
Speaker 2: connected to, felt like they weren't scared of me, they
12:15
Speaker 2: were scared of the person who actually did it, right,
12:20
Speaker 2: So by way of throwing me in there, they felt
12:23
Speaker 2: that I was going to tell on the person who
12:26
Speaker 2: actually did it.
12:27
Speaker 1: Wow.
12:29
Speaker 2: So that's the big boom right there.
12:30
Speaker 1: And then things take another crazy turn, right because the
12:35
Speaker 1: TV show airs the show that you were in, which
12:38
Speaker 1: should have been a cause for celebration. She happens to
12:41
Speaker 1: see the TV show, right, and then she comes back
12:43
Speaker 1: and says, oh, now I know it's definitely him.
12:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, So they were getting her closer and closer to
12:50
Speaker 2: that it was me one hundred percent, and then on
12:53
Speaker 2: top of her saying that she talked to her cousin,
12:56
Speaker 2: and then on top of the detectives really trying to
13:00
Speaker 2: get somebody to go to jail for this. You know,
13:03
Speaker 2: that's what brewed up to what that ultimately ended up being.
13:07
Speaker 2: But even still that didn't work. What ultimately ended up
13:11
Speaker 2: happening was I said. About fourteen months later, the police
13:16
Speaker 2: had did a traffic stop with this other woman named Letitia,
13:21
Speaker 2: who had a gun in her lap, had cracked cocaine
13:24
Speaker 2: on her baby in the back, had her boyfriend who
13:28
Speaker 2: was on parole in the passenger seat. Pulled over. She's
13:32
Speaker 2: going to jail, and she goes down and they basically say, well,
13:37
Speaker 2: if you could tell us X, Y, and Z about
13:40
Speaker 2: this case, everybody basically goes free. She initially tells them
13:45
Speaker 2: that it was daylight and this altercation happened, and then
13:50
Speaker 2: she said she looked through the window and looked all
13:52
Speaker 2: the way down the block and seeing that this happened,
13:55
Speaker 2: and just threw my name in there. So there was
13:59
Speaker 2: a lot of things is wrong with that, right as
14:01
Speaker 2: if first, she says that she's seen it for fifty
14:04
Speaker 2: yards away on a slant heel in the daylight, when
14:09
Speaker 2: it didn't happen in the daytime, it happened at night.
14:13
Speaker 2: But what got the arrest warrant was the write up
14:17
Speaker 2: that detectives had rolled up. They were guiding her the
14:21
Speaker 2: whole way, making everything like it was a clear record,
14:25
Speaker 2: and then wrote at the bottom extremely credible. So now
14:30
Speaker 2: when they take that to the DA, now they feel
14:33
Speaker 2: they have two witnesses saying the same exact thing.
14:37
Speaker 1: So this is a crazy timeline too, because the crime
14:40
Speaker 1: we know happens in two thousand and seven, you don't
14:43
Speaker 1: get brought in and rested until two thousand and eight,
14:46
Speaker 1: over a year later, and then the trial doesn't happen
14:50
Speaker 1: till twenty ten.
14:51
Speaker 2: Correct.
14:52
Speaker 1: So during that time were you in jail, did you
14:54
Speaker 1: bail out? How did that unfold? After you arrested?
14:57
Speaker 2: Well, after I was arrested, they wanted to question me. Obviously,
15:02
Speaker 2: there's two things you can do. You can give up information,
15:05
Speaker 2: but never mind that because in that situation, which you're
15:08
Speaker 2: taught in the streets, is you know it's not to snitch,
15:11
Speaker 2: not to give up information. Something happened to me my family,
15:15
Speaker 2: you know, So I balanced that with also knowing that
15:19
Speaker 2: it's not my duty to put somebody else into jail.
15:22
Speaker 2: That's for them to actually get it right. And that
15:25
Speaker 2: was my way of going at it. So it actually
15:27
Speaker 2: took me about a year and a half to go
15:28
Speaker 2: to trial. It was hard trying to get the thirty
15:31
Speaker 2: people that was out there to actually come in, you know,
15:34
Speaker 2: not say who did it, you know, but to say
15:36
Speaker 2: I didn't do it. I wasn't trying to put nobody
15:39
Speaker 2: in no situation where I was trying to have somebody
15:41
Speaker 2: else tell on the assailant because I wasn't going to
15:44
Speaker 2: do anything like that. Then I have to go what
15:47
Speaker 2: hide for the rest of my life or something. That's
15:50
Speaker 2: just not my job. That's up to the system to do.
15:52
Speaker 1: So nobody would want to be in that situation. But
15:55
Speaker 1: you were in it, and you're still just a young
15:57
Speaker 1: guy without you know, resources, and so you roll with
16:02
Speaker 1: it and you go to trial.
16:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we thought the case added an identity case,
16:06
Speaker 2: you know, identity testify. We didn't call nobody to testify
16:09
Speaker 2: or whatever. So it took three days and then it
16:11
Speaker 2: took five days of deliberation. Ultimately they came back with
16:16
Speaker 2: a murder one conviction. It was it was definitely tough
16:20
Speaker 2: I stayed optimistic because I know I didn't do it
16:23
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, and that's what, ultimately,
16:26
Speaker 2: you know, kept the wools turning in my mind on
16:28
Speaker 2: how do I figure this out?
16:37
Speaker 1: And you were convicted, of course, and you were sentenced
16:40
Speaker 1: to fifty years in prison.
16:43
Speaker 2: So I want you to understand this right before I
16:45
Speaker 2: get since it's to fifty the life I'm inside of
16:47
Speaker 2: my cell, I become we're doing a retrial motion right
16:50
Speaker 2: to ask for a retrial before a sentence. I'm come
16:54
Speaker 2: back from church, come aside. It's a twelve man like
16:56
Speaker 2: tank and this kid by the name of Oliver Bart
17:00
Speaker 2: sentence comes up to me. Now I don't know who
17:03
Speaker 2: this kid is. He comes up to me and he
17:05
Speaker 2: asked me, like, you know, is your last name true Love?
17:08
Speaker 2: And I say yes. He said, did you go to
17:11
Speaker 2: jail like in seven I'm like no, but that's when
17:14
Speaker 2: my case happened. He said yes. I remember being in
17:17
Speaker 2: a police station at the time where some like some
17:22
Speaker 2: mooning girl and some detectives came in and she was
17:26
Speaker 2: crying and they were pointing out a picture saying are
17:30
Speaker 2: you sure it ain't something something? True Love? And I'm
17:35
Speaker 2: like whoa, you know, and it blows my mind that
17:38
Speaker 2: it just so happens that I run into this guy
17:41
Speaker 2: and he had just been transported from sam Bruno Jail
17:45
Speaker 2: to San Francisco County on his way to prison. And
17:48
Speaker 2: he's seen in the newspaper when he was in saying
17:52
Speaker 2: Bruno about my case, and he remembered the last name
17:55
Speaker 2: that was the first spark. And then when he ended
17:58
Speaker 2: up in a sale with me the name again, that's
18:01
Speaker 2: when he actually approached me and told me these things.
18:04
Speaker 2: So I called my attorney immediately and tell my attorney
18:08
Speaker 2: about him, and my attorney came up and you know,
18:11
Speaker 2: talk to him, got his statement, and come to find out,
18:14
Speaker 2: he was at the police station at the exact same
18:17
Speaker 2: time that Lula Lamanga had came into the police station.
18:21
Speaker 2: He was a sixteen year old kid come to the
18:24
Speaker 2: bench watching all of this unfold. So what he ended
18:28
Speaker 2: up saying was big in my case because remind you
18:33
Speaker 2: that that photo, that photo and the six pack lineup
18:37
Speaker 2: that had the date that was different from everybody else's
18:41
Speaker 2: which we called in the question made that much more
18:44
Speaker 2: sense because they had me down as the shooter on
18:48
Speaker 2: day one, and what made more sense from his testimony,
18:52
Speaker 2: is why she never put it at my picture on
18:56
Speaker 2: the wall, because on day one she was saying that
19:00
Speaker 2: it wasn't me. Even on day two she was saying
19:03
Speaker 2: it wasn't me. Now this is newly found evidence. There
19:07
Speaker 2: was no way that we could have knew that this
19:10
Speaker 2: kid was inside the police station. So there's no way
19:14
Speaker 2: we could have called him. Now, just in the heap
19:16
Speaker 2: of that time, what was going on in San Francisco.
19:19
Speaker 2: You got you know, Kamala Harris, who's going to try
19:23
Speaker 2: to be Attorney General. You have another case which got overturned,
19:29
Speaker 2: and then you have a big drug scandal that's happening
19:32
Speaker 2: in San Francisco also at the exact same time. So
19:36
Speaker 2: in the retrial motion hearing when we put him on
19:39
Speaker 2: the stand to testify, Linda Allen, the city's attorney, attacked
19:44
Speaker 2: Oh that he was a gang member and he's trying
19:48
Speaker 2: to do this for a favor for the blacks, like
19:51
Speaker 2: some prison politics type stuff. And neither one of us
19:56
Speaker 2: have ever been to prison, and we just don't know
19:59
Speaker 2: each other at all. So in this moment though that
20:03
Speaker 2: this is new discovered evidence, I feel like I was
20:07
Speaker 2: politicked out because if they were to grant me a retrial.
20:12
Speaker 2: That would have been two murder cases with convictions granted
20:16
Speaker 2: retrial before conviction. And plus the drug scandal that was
20:21
Speaker 2: national attention. So ultimately, even what Oliver Barcon is, they
20:26
Speaker 2: still denied my retrial motion. That's when I got sentenced
20:31
Speaker 2: to fifty to life in prison.
20:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's important to look at the role
20:37
Speaker 1: that politics played in this because there was a lot
20:40
Speaker 1: going on and now things are really looking a lot
20:43
Speaker 1: better in San Francisco with the new DA Chase A. Boudin,
20:47
Speaker 1: who is doing incredible, incredible thing is probably the most
20:50
Speaker 1: impactful six months of any new prosecutor in the history
20:54
Speaker 1: of this country, I would say, in terms of what
20:55
Speaker 1: he's been able to accomplish. But that's a separate issue.
20:58
Speaker 1: Mss Harris at the time does not come out. I mean,
21:01
Speaker 1: we can't sugarcoat it. I mean, she was one of
21:03
Speaker 1: the villains in this story, in your story, and in
21:07
Speaker 1: too many other stories that took place around this time.
21:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, the think about Kamala Harris as a senator, she
21:14
Speaker 2: talks a lot of things that ploys towards the African
21:17
Speaker 2: American community, and you know it's good, Like if I
21:21
Speaker 2: didn't go through the experience that I went through, then
21:24
Speaker 2: I will probably be on the side of what Kamala
21:26
Speaker 2: Harris actually talks about. And that's if you know, I
21:29
Speaker 2: didn't find out about me. But when we talk about
21:32
Speaker 2: being a progressive prosecutor, I think of chase A Boudin
21:36
Speaker 2: Kamala Harris at the time she had opportunity to alleviate
21:41
Speaker 2: this case and dive into it, especially a murder charge.
21:44
Speaker 2: Any head DA is overlooking any murder charge that's happening
21:48
Speaker 2: inside of their city. But also just knowing politics at
21:53
Speaker 2: that time. I know four people who went to jail
21:57
Speaker 2: innocently for murders. In every single last one of them
22:00
Speaker 2: got convicted. They call it a street sweep. Once elections
22:05
Speaker 2: come up, they come through and they sweep any case
22:07
Speaker 2: that they have. They say, arrest them, arrest them, marest them,
22:10
Speaker 2: and look. I went to jail right before elections and
22:14
Speaker 2: one of the detectives my dad had ran into before
22:17
Speaker 2: I went to trial, Kevin Noble, had told my dad.
22:20
Speaker 2: My dad was like, yo, why you got my son?
22:22
Speaker 2: And he said, oh, you know how it is. And
22:24
Speaker 2: during election time, you know DA's they just come and sweep,
22:28
Speaker 2: you know, everybody up any case that they got and
22:31
Speaker 2: see if they can pressure people into taking deals. Because
22:35
Speaker 2: they offered me a deal, you know, before I went
22:37
Speaker 2: to try my first time, they was like, you know,
22:39
Speaker 2: you complete out and take voluntary man slid, don't take
22:42
Speaker 2: thirteen years under her watch. So my feeling on Kamala
22:46
Speaker 2: Harris being in that position, being African American, coming from
22:50
Speaker 2: the Bay Area and being hard on crime the way
22:53
Speaker 2: that she was, and how many people that was going
22:55
Speaker 2: to jail for marijuana chargers at one of the highest
22:58
Speaker 2: rates in the country, you know, played a big part
23:01
Speaker 2: of mass incarceration and also to gentrification in San Francisco.
23:06
Speaker 2: So I cannot unfeel that or see that, or when
23:10
Speaker 2: I'm getting sentenced, you know, or my conviction, she's in
23:13
Speaker 2: there smiling and you know, proud of what this is,
23:17
Speaker 2: what this conviction is, and what it means to her career.
23:20
Speaker 2: And then right after I lose my case, she wins
23:23
Speaker 2: you know, Attorney General. So that all tells a story,
23:27
Speaker 2: you know, just within itself.
23:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, And what a sick thing to say to your father.
23:32
Speaker 1: I mean, it's I mean, that's as cold as it gets,
23:35
Speaker 1: like it's your father, for fox sakes.
23:37
Speaker 2: So Kevin Noble before I went to trial, and this
23:40
Speaker 2: was not turned over to us. Kevin Noble actually came
23:43
Speaker 2: in with a confidential format saying that somebody else did it.
23:48
Speaker 2: So he was out there investigating and he found somebody
23:52
Speaker 2: saying that this person did it, and they took it
23:55
Speaker 2: and they tucked it under the rug. You know, they
23:58
Speaker 2: felt like they had their God at the actually sold
24:00
Speaker 2: on on doing it.
24:03
Speaker 1: Jaman, if you could talk about for a minute, and
24:05
Speaker 1: we're going to get to the to the retrial, of course,
24:07
Speaker 1: your exoneration, because you were fully exonerated. That being said,
24:11
Speaker 1: can you tell us when you were in prison, was
24:14
Speaker 1: there a best moment.
24:16
Speaker 2: When I was waiting for the courts to give their
24:19
Speaker 2: opinion on if I was gonna get a retrial or not.
24:23
Speaker 2: And they initially I came back and I'm on the
24:26
Speaker 2: phone at the same time with my appella attorney, Mark Zilversmith,
24:31
Speaker 2: and they deny, well they didn't deny. They changed the
24:35
Speaker 2: conviction from first degree murder to second degree murder, which
24:39
Speaker 2: I would have had from fifty years. It would have
24:41
Speaker 2: went down to forty years to life. And I'm like, WHOA, like,
24:45
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? And My selling at the
24:46
Speaker 2: time was like, that's good. I mean, they're really looking
24:49
Speaker 2: at it now. Mind you, I'm in prison for three
24:51
Speaker 2: years before I even get this opinion from the appellate courts.
24:56
Speaker 2: But I knew that until I get another decision, I
25:00
Speaker 2: will be in prison for at least another two to
25:02
Speaker 2: three years because that's the time that it typically takes.
25:05
Speaker 2: So then my attorney put in a motion to review.
25:09
Speaker 2: So with this strategy at the same time, I ended
25:13
Speaker 2: up getting two witnesses to sign FI David testifying to
25:18
Speaker 2: what happened that day without saying the person who did it,
25:23
Speaker 2: and we filed the Habes corpus through the appellate court
25:27
Speaker 2: so it could go across judges climbed them table at
25:31
Speaker 2: the exact same time as our review was and to
25:35
Speaker 2: say that there's two more witnesses saying that he didn't
25:39
Speaker 2: do it. So ninety days later we got the opinion
25:43
Speaker 2: back that the judges said, you know what, you're right,
25:47
Speaker 2: and they granted a new retrial. It was a crying moment,
25:50
Speaker 2: you know, I cried like a baby, you know, inside
25:53
Speaker 2: that cell.
25:54
Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't think anyone who's ever not been through
25:57
Speaker 1: that could possibly even imagine such a transformative I mean,
26:02
Speaker 1: you get your life back.
26:04
Speaker 2: Well, well, the crazy part about it is like in
26:06
Speaker 2: that moment, you feel excited, right, but come to find out,
26:10
Speaker 2: once you get back to County jail, you just know
26:12
Speaker 2: that you don't have the life sentence no more, but
26:14
Speaker 2: you still have a whole nother fight and that's potentially
26:18
Speaker 2: going to trial. Are them coming to you and offering
26:22
Speaker 2: you a deal where you're almost close to want to
26:26
Speaker 2: take that deal just so you don't have to go
26:28
Speaker 2: to trial and lose again, because at that point, you know,
26:33
Speaker 2: you don't I don't believe in the system. You know,
26:36
Speaker 2: I just got to convict the fuck prime. I didn't do.
26:39
Speaker 2: Like you ask anybody who has a life sentence right now,
26:42
Speaker 2: innocent or not innocent, if they had a deal on
26:45
Speaker 2: the table right now to take it and they get
26:48
Speaker 2: to come home in two years. They're taking it.
26:51
Speaker 1: So let's get to the good stuff, because we don't
26:54
Speaker 1: have a ton of time left. But I do want to,
26:56
Speaker 1: of course, talk about how you manage to finally get
27:02
Speaker 1: some measure of justice, and by that I mean, of
27:05
Speaker 1: course the retrial and your exoneration.
27:08
Speaker 2: When I got back to County, it took me a
27:10
Speaker 2: year to go back to trial. I had two extraordinary lawyers,
27:15
Speaker 2: Kate Chatfield and Alex Riiseman. The way that we fought
27:19
Speaker 2: the case, we asked for the original homicide file and
27:23
Speaker 2: the judge granted it to us. What helped us was
27:26
Speaker 2: that they were tampering with the evidence. So when we
27:29
Speaker 2: slipped at the original homicide file, we seen that the
27:33
Speaker 2: detectives was writing in pen pencil in marker. So the
27:38
Speaker 2: ballistics of the trajectory of the bullets, it didn't fit
27:42
Speaker 2: Lula Lamanga's testimony of the bullets going from the left
27:47
Speaker 2: to the right. The trajectory of the bullets went from
27:51
Speaker 2: the right to the left, and that made more sense
27:55
Speaker 2: if the shooter was coming up from the bottom into
27:59
Speaker 2: the top of the hill. So what they did was
28:03
Speaker 2: erased because they wrote in pencil. They erased everything that
28:08
Speaker 2: the autosy lady has said about the trajectory of the
28:12
Speaker 2: bullet wounds, so they knew that that was an issue. Also,
28:16
Speaker 2: a gun shoots off the shellcases from the right into
28:20
Speaker 2: the rear ninety eight percent of the time, so is
28:24
Speaker 2: she saying that this murder happened coming from this way,
28:27
Speaker 2: then the shellcases will be in the street and not
28:31
Speaker 2: in a straight line in the grass from where the
28:35
Speaker 2: shellcases landed. It made more sense that the shooter was
28:40
Speaker 2: coming from the bottom into the top, so it did
28:44
Speaker 2: not match with what Lulu La Maga had actually said.
28:47
Speaker 1: So you were able to undermine the police's theory of
28:50
Speaker 1: the crime because the autopsy and ballistics findings pointed to
28:53
Speaker 1: the gunman approaching sell Kuka from downhill, which was out
28:58
Speaker 1: of Loalamana's view. Now what about the deliberation.
29:02
Speaker 2: Every day, within deliberation, you get to choose if you
29:06
Speaker 2: want to stay downstairs inside the holding tank, or you
29:09
Speaker 2: could stay upstairs until they come back with a verdict.
29:11
Speaker 2: I chose to stay downstairs because the deliberation room was
29:15
Speaker 2: right next to the holding tank. And I'm in there panicing,
29:19
Speaker 2: I'm stressing, I'm pacing, you know, I'm thinking about what
29:23
Speaker 2: I'm gonna do if I win. I'm thinking about what
29:25
Speaker 2: I'm gonna do if I lose. So five days later,
29:28
Speaker 2: they finally end up coming back with a verdict, so
29:32
Speaker 2: I come downstairs. I didn't have no opportunity to call
29:35
Speaker 2: my family. Uh, they were living in the East Bay.
29:39
Speaker 2: So when I come downstairs for the verdict, the only
29:42
Speaker 2: people that are sitting on my side is my attorney's
29:45
Speaker 2: loved ones, and it's also chasing Boudin, chasing Boudin. I
29:50
Speaker 2: don't know who chasea Boudein is at that point, right,
29:52
Speaker 2: But on the other side the whole DA's office, So
29:56
Speaker 2: Gascon was the DA at that point, right. So there
29:59
Speaker 2: are all in there waiting for the verdict, and the
30:02
Speaker 2: clerk reads off in the case of Jamal true Love
30:05
Speaker 2: on first degree murder, not guilty, and I break out
30:10
Speaker 2: in tears. I'm crying. I'm hugging my attorney and I'm
30:14
Speaker 2: just crying my eyes out. I can't believe it. I'm
30:16
Speaker 2: really breaking down. And then my attorney says, hold on, wait,
30:20
Speaker 2: you gotta listen for second degree murder. I said, what
30:22
Speaker 2: hold on? Because I thought I won at that point,
30:25
Speaker 2: so oh man, it was I felt the sweat just
30:28
Speaker 2: coming down my face. And then they said, in the
30:31
Speaker 2: case of Jamal true Love on second degree murder, we
30:35
Speaker 2: find the defendant not guilty. And I'm literally feeling that
30:40
Speaker 2: right now. I'm trying not to get emotional. But when
30:43
Speaker 2: I looked over to the jury, that was the first
30:46
Speaker 2: time that they could actually show an expression on their faces,
30:50
Speaker 2: and you see them over there crying. They're giving me
30:53
Speaker 2: prayer hands, they're sitting kisses at me, you know, and
30:57
Speaker 2: all of these things, and I'm you know, and I'm
30:59
Speaker 2: just crying my eyes out. You know. I look back,
31:02
Speaker 2: you see all the district attorneys just leaving, you know, upset,
31:06
Speaker 2: and I'm just crying out. I'm just crying my eyes out.
31:09
Speaker 2: And even going back up to the sixth for where
31:12
Speaker 2: I was being held and telling everybody on the line,
31:16
Speaker 2: which everybody knew I was innocent, and I told everybody,
31:19
Speaker 2: you know, I got found not guilty. The whole floor,
31:22
Speaker 2: the whole jail erupts, even some of the deputies that
31:26
Speaker 2: were you know, cool, and even the ones that was
31:30
Speaker 2: foul as fun because this hell of file shit was
31:32
Speaker 2: trying to you know, clap their hands and stuff like that.
31:35
Speaker 2: So it was a good feeling. And I went home
31:36
Speaker 2: that day. I was able to surprise my mother and
31:39
Speaker 2: you know, my family, which they didn't know if I
31:41
Speaker 2: want or not. But I popped up on them and they,
31:45
Speaker 2: you know, they see me. They couldn't believe it. It
31:47
Speaker 2: was more tears shit, And it was the most exhilarating
31:50
Speaker 2: feeling to know that you know I'm free again today.
32:05
Speaker 1: You've been out for how long I've been out?
32:08
Speaker 2: Five years?
32:09
Speaker 1: And I've seen you around and you know, I know
32:12
Speaker 1: you're making the most of every minute of it. Do
32:14
Speaker 1: you want to tell us a little bit about what
32:15
Speaker 1: you're working on now? And then we're going to get
32:17
Speaker 1: to the closing of the show.
32:19
Speaker 2: I end up suing, you know, the police. They try
32:22
Speaker 2: to offer me, you know, some moneys to shut up. Ultimately,
32:24
Speaker 2: our health them accountable, and I won my civil case.
32:28
Speaker 2: I was awarded ten million dollars that ended up rounding
32:31
Speaker 2: out to be thirteen point one million, which obviously I
32:34
Speaker 2: didn't get all the money. But from there on, so
32:37
Speaker 2: what's ironic is before I won my civil case, three
32:43
Speaker 2: days before that, I landed a role in this movie
32:47
Speaker 2: called The Last Black Man in San Francisco, which I
32:51
Speaker 2: got the opportunity by volunteering at a nonprofit called United Players.
32:57
Speaker 2: Rudy Corpez that's my mentor, and you know the mantras
33:01
Speaker 2: it takes the Hood to save the Hood. So they
33:03
Speaker 2: were coming there to get some kids for the rock
33:06
Speaker 2: thoughing scene. Here comes that opportunity. I say, look, I
33:09
Speaker 2: know how to act. I'm acting all my life, you know,
33:12
Speaker 2: trying to fit in the city where I stand out
33:13
Speaker 2: in And I think that was the line that got
33:16
Speaker 2: me the opportunity to read Joe Talbot Jimmy Fails called
33:20
Speaker 2: me back two times after I got it. Three days later,
33:23
Speaker 2: I win my civil case, and from there on I
33:26
Speaker 2: took on what I believed my life was meant to be.
33:31
Speaker 2: And before all of that, I went to school for
33:34
Speaker 2: Psychology Africana Studies at State and after one semester I
33:39
Speaker 2: identified that much more of what my life was supposed
33:42
Speaker 2: to be. So when you were saying manifestation, you know,
33:45
Speaker 2: I run my life on you know, manifesto desto. If
33:48
Speaker 2: you could manifest it and you can see the steps
33:50
Speaker 2: that you got to take to actually get there, then
33:53
Speaker 2: you take what's it, a tangible right in front of you,
33:56
Speaker 2: and you make sense of it on how you ultimately
33:59
Speaker 2: get to that next platu. I also landed a role
34:02
Speaker 2: on this upcoming animation film called p Other Pigeonhawk, which
34:06
Speaker 2: has Whooping gowerk Keenan Thompson, Howie Mandell and of course
34:11
Speaker 2: myself and the slew of other names. I'm producing this
34:14
Speaker 2: film called Black and White. It's about the USC seventy
34:18
Speaker 2: two football team and working on other projects. I launched
34:23
Speaker 2: my production company with one of my good friends and
34:26
Speaker 2: business partners, said Twaley Holder called True Narrative, also launching
34:32
Speaker 2: a record label. I have my son and a few
34:35
Speaker 2: other artists that's coming up that I plan on putting
34:37
Speaker 2: out there with their music. And I do a lot
34:39
Speaker 2: of you know activism. I use my platform to speak
34:43
Speaker 2: on you know, social issues and to bring the enlightenment
34:48
Speaker 2: to my community about you know, what we need to
34:51
Speaker 2: be doing with the voting and letting our voices be
34:54
Speaker 2: heard behind you know, systemic racism behind all these police
34:58
Speaker 2: involved shootings. Know, I campaign for Chase A Boudin Now.
35:02
Speaker 2: Before I would have never in my life be a
35:05
Speaker 2: campaign for a DA because the DA is looked at
35:08
Speaker 2: as basically the police. But once I got the understanding
35:11
Speaker 2: that there's gonna be a DA regardless, and don't you
35:14
Speaker 2: want it to be the right one. So that's what
35:16
Speaker 2: I start pressing on to my people to understand that
35:19
Speaker 2: there's gonna be a DA regardless, and we have a
35:21
Speaker 2: say so in who the DA actually is, so get
35:24
Speaker 2: out and vote. So that's everything in a nutshell.
35:29
Speaker 1: That's a pretty damn good nutshell. And you know, I
35:32
Speaker 1: got to say I was a big supporter of Chase
35:34
Speaker 1: A Boudin's campaign as well, and I'm super proud of
35:38
Speaker 1: everything he's been doing. You know, the truth is, we
35:40
Speaker 1: need to clone that guy and put the clones of
35:43
Speaker 1: him in DA offices all over the country. And while
35:47
Speaker 1: we're on the subject of dismantling systemic racism and all
35:50
Speaker 1: the other things that we've managed to talk about in
35:53
Speaker 1: this brief time we've had together, we can't leave out
35:57
Speaker 1: the young man who testified for you about what he's
36:00
Speaker 1: on the police station, right, And that was the guy
36:03
Speaker 1: who talked about the police coercing lou A Lamaga. His name,
36:08
Speaker 1: of course, was Oliver bar Senda's and he was actually
36:11
Speaker 1: shot in the back by the police, right.
36:13
Speaker 2: Oliver bar Sendas. The story is really that much like
36:17
Speaker 2: we will have to have two hours because the police
36:21
Speaker 2: shot him after he testified against me the first time,
36:24
Speaker 2: San Francisco Police Department. Right when he went to prison,
36:27
Speaker 2: came home within sixty days, they shot him in the
36:30
Speaker 2: back while he was running. He had a gun on him. Right,
36:33
Speaker 2: he goes to jail, he does three years, come home
36:35
Speaker 2: around the same time I come home and then he
36:39
Speaker 2: stays home three years, get off probation, we go to trial.
36:42
Speaker 2: We actually use him to testify in my civil case.
36:46
Speaker 2: He testifies in my civil case, and within two months
36:49
Speaker 2: again SFPD again shoots him in the back while he's
36:54
Speaker 2: running and tries to literally kill him, which he doesn't die.
37:01
Speaker 2: They had it on camera, and he actually just two
37:04
Speaker 2: weeks ago settled for less than five hundred thousand dollars
37:10
Speaker 2: in a civil suit. And the media has not connected
37:15
Speaker 2: these at all both cases. But would I know what
37:19
Speaker 2: they ended up doing, because we know this shit is crooked.
37:22
Speaker 2: They gave a belief like a doe feed or somebody
37:26
Speaker 2: it's called a chipped gun, so a drop gun to
37:30
Speaker 2: make sure that this gun gets in this person's hands,
37:33
Speaker 2: so they could go ahead and trail them ultimately to
37:36
Speaker 2: go to take them down. And when they going to
37:38
Speaker 2: take them down, there's only two things they can do.
37:40
Speaker 2: So if they run and they got the gun on them,
37:42
Speaker 2: then all they gotta do is kill them. And then
37:45
Speaker 2: they're gonna say, oh, well he had a gun on them.
37:46
Speaker 2: I seen a gun and blase the thing with Oliver.
37:49
Speaker 2: He didn't die both times.
37:52
Speaker 1: Okay, wait, wait what a chipped gun, like with GPS
37:56
Speaker 1: or something.
37:57
Speaker 2: Yes, e'sactly what they do, right. So you know how
37:59
Speaker 2: when they do like set up cars, they'll put a
38:01
Speaker 2: car right there with the keys in and stuff like that,
38:04
Speaker 2: kind of like lure you, but they already got it
38:06
Speaker 2: all set up. Same thing with a gun, and they
38:08
Speaker 2: was doing this in the nineties, right, That's how I
38:11
Speaker 2: know about it. It's called a drop gun. So they'll
38:13
Speaker 2: chip the gun, right, and they'll get this dau fiend
38:15
Speaker 2: or something like that that'll go up to a specific
38:18
Speaker 2: person or if not a specific person, a crowd and
38:22
Speaker 2: be like, we're gonna give you this. Go sell this
38:24
Speaker 2: gun for one hundred dollars. If you go to any
38:26
Speaker 2: projects and any hood with a dauphend with a gun
38:29
Speaker 2: saying that he's selling it for one hundred dollars, somebody's
38:32
Speaker 2: gonna buy it. And Oliver case that's what I believe
38:36
Speaker 2: they did, because the same scenario happened twice. In the
38:39
Speaker 2: second time, it just so happened that they have footage
38:43
Speaker 2: On the day the Warriors won the championship. They first championship,
38:46
Speaker 2: they pull out on a group of five Latinos with
38:50
Speaker 2: one can of beer talking about, oh, what are you
38:53
Speaker 2: guys doing here? And they're like, where is this one?
38:56
Speaker 2: We're just chilling. It's like, oh, well, you got an
38:58
Speaker 2: open can of beer. It's like, now, at that moment,
39:01
Speaker 2: you see Oliver kind of like testing a little bit,
39:03
Speaker 2: and then next you know, he takes off running. As
39:06
Speaker 2: soon as he takes off running, the officer already pulled
39:09
Speaker 2: out his gun and start running with the gun. Before
39:12
Speaker 2: the officer could see even if he had a gun
39:14
Speaker 2: on him or not, the officer already starts shooting blah
39:17
Speaker 2: blah blah blah, drops him with three of them, and
39:20
Speaker 2: then shoot an extra three of them while he on
39:23
Speaker 2: the floor, saying get down, get down, and he still lives.
39:28
Speaker 2: This is the thing, though, right that same officer killed
39:33
Speaker 2: a fourteen year old boy in South San Francisco just
39:37
Speaker 2: three years prior.
39:40
Speaker 1: Wow, you're right, and we wouldn't need at least a
39:43
Speaker 1: few more hours. And I'm not even sure there'd be
39:45
Speaker 1: enough to cover all of this stuff that's coming out now.
39:48
Speaker 1: But you know, at this point, let's go to our
39:51
Speaker 1: closing argument. This is the part of the show where
39:56
Speaker 1: everyone I think that's a part of the show everybody
39:59
Speaker 1: looks forward to I know I do. We call it
40:02
Speaker 1: closing arguments. This is where I get to, first of all,
40:06
Speaker 1: thank you for being here, sharing your incredible story and
40:11
Speaker 1: doing it so beautifully. And then I get to turn
40:15
Speaker 1: my microphone off and just kick back in my chair,
40:18
Speaker 1: leave my headphones on, and listen to you for any
40:21
Speaker 1: closing thoughts that you have about anything you want to
40:24
Speaker 1: talk about.
40:25
Speaker 2: My philosophy that I've got out of all of this
40:28
Speaker 2: that I've been through is that I don't stand for
40:32
Speaker 2: nothing because I find understanding in everything. And what that
40:36
Speaker 2: is is just find a mediation. You can have an opinion,
40:40
Speaker 2: you can have an opinion on how you look at things,
40:42
Speaker 2: but also knowing that there's somebody else's opinion and you
40:47
Speaker 2: have to look at it from their lenses and identify
40:50
Speaker 2: why they're looking at it like that causing mediation. Mediation
40:54
Speaker 2: is peaceful. So if people could always look at what
40:58
Speaker 2: they're going through or their ideology of how they see
41:02
Speaker 2: things and compare it to somebody else's and find understanding
41:06
Speaker 2: in that. But then if it's a negative or a positive,
41:10
Speaker 2: then you'll be able to come to a common ground
41:13
Speaker 2: to understand why you're going through what you're going through.
41:17
Speaker 2: And why the opposite person looks at something the way
41:21
Speaker 2: that they look at it, and that leads me to
41:24
Speaker 2: knowing that there will not be a positive for you
41:28
Speaker 2: or in this life without a negative. You have to
41:31
Speaker 2: accept every negative. Then you'll understand that me being in
41:35
Speaker 2: this positive situation right now, there's no way I get
41:39
Speaker 2: here or can predict that I get anywhere else in
41:41
Speaker 2: life without going through the most horrific thing that somebody
41:45
Speaker 2: could actually go through, and that's being put in jail
41:48
Speaker 2: and given a death sentence that you have to live
41:51
Speaker 2: the rest of your life until you actually die on
41:54
Speaker 2: And that leads me to the end, and that's knowing
41:57
Speaker 2: your past could better predict your future than plan for
42:00
Speaker 2: If you know the decisions that you made that led
42:04
Speaker 2: to a positive and the ones that led to a negative,
42:09
Speaker 2: then you will better identify where your future is actually
42:13
Speaker 2: going towards knowing that we all have to plan for sure,
42:17
Speaker 2: but not putting a plan so far ahead are so
42:21
Speaker 2: heavy onto your shoulders, so when you fail, you don't
42:25
Speaker 2: find understanding of why you fail, But then you'll understand
42:29
Speaker 2: it that much more by knowing why you failed before.
42:38
Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you
42:41
Speaker 1: get your podcasts.
42:42
Speaker 2: It really helps.
42:44
Speaker 1: And I'm a proud donor to the Nnocence Project and
42:47
Speaker 1: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very
42:49
Speaker 1: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go
42:53
Speaker 1: to Innocence Project dot orgorg to learn how to donate
42:56
Speaker 1: and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team,
42:59
Speaker 1: Connor and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is
43:02
Speaker 1: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure
43:06
Speaker 1: to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on
43:09
Speaker 1: Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm
43:14
Speaker 1: is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association
43:17
Speaker 1: with Signal Company Number one