Latest / The Unmaking / Roots and wings

Transcript

Roots and wings · The Unmaking

• 0:00
  [music]
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: So Janik, you've lived in several different spots.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: What does this one here mean to you and where are we parked?
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: So to me,
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: this place in beautiful New Zealand
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: is
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: the last place I will I put my suitcase in,
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: I have travelled around the world, done a few things,
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: which I am benefitting from here.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: But we're here in Cromwell right in the outskirts of Pisa range and I fell in love
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: with the landscapes that's around us and
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: But before that I fell in love with a Kiwi girl who took me over here.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm here with my family doing what I like, making pots.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: The shed is down the road from where we are.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: I usually call it my stairway to heaven.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Every day I just walk down to I'm very fortunate to be able to make a living out
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: of this, and here in New Zealand especially.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: It means family, it means values, it means giving roots and wings to my children as well.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: And this is the culmination as well of a lifetime of work and dedication,
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: what you've built towards.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: Very much indeed.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know I was going to come here one day.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's one of those funny twists of faith in life, but it's also about choices.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: But when I met Philippa in London at the Chelsea Flower Show,
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know I was going to ever move to New Zealand then.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: But when we came here for months of holiday just to discover the place,
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: I fell in love with Domaine Rewa, where we're located.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: And after I fell in love with Philippa, I fell in love with the place she had just acquired.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: That's the right chronology, I think.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: You don't want to get out there in order of the other around.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, and then we slowly made our way back to New Zealand.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: And in 2018, we arrived in New Zealand with twin boys, little boys.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: At the time, they were three or four, I remember, yeah.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it was quite challenging.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: It was...
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: Now that I think about it, it was a bit crazy.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone in France thought, you know, what are you doing?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: You're giving up, you know, years of work in a beautiful workshop.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: You're making pots here and pure tradition of Hondus.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, you have everything going here.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: And why do you change like that?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: And nobody really understood the way I was running my life.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: But all that mattered is that I did understand it.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: How did you answer them at that point, the people asking that question?
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: What are you doing, Yannick?
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: The most common answer to this question was, I'm a citizen of the world.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: I don't belong anywhere.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: I've always been uprooted.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: I was brought up in Africa, born in 1966.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: Had a lot of friends in Africa.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: Moved back to France when I was 15.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: Studied in France to get a baccalaureate until I was 19.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: 19 I left, went to California.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: it's very much a series of successions of living in different places for me
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: in my life, you know, and so that was my answer.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I've always been a sort of world vagabond.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: In a way, with a bit of structure anyways.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so moving to California was just to continue my studies.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: Moving to New Zealand was to continue what I do and what I like to do, that is making pots.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: Growing up in Cameroon,
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: that must have taught you a lot as well about otherness,
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: visually being different,
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  SPEAKER_02: different values,
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  SPEAKER_02: different cultures,
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: particularly coming from a French culture,
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_02: living in a French colony, with the challenges that come with that.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: How do you think that impacted your early life?
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: So my parents' education was basically geared towards respect of other people.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: In Cameroon,
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: I guess we were lucky we didn't have such things as apartheid in South Africa,
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: but we were always aware of this.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: Although there was a lot of staff around us taking care of the garden and food, cooking.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: My parents were both busy people working away and we were going to school growing up
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: to a certain extent.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: The school infrastructure wasn't set up for us to continue our education in Cameroon
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: at the time, so that's why we had to move back to France.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: Growing up,
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: I remember playing soccer with kids down the road and I'd been given a new pair
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: of soccer boots for Christmas and I rocked up to go and play.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: Soon enough I realized that everyone was playing barefoot,
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: so I told that story to my kids recently,
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: so now they're playing soccer barefoot, actually.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, that's what it meant to me, being equal, living in respect of other people.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's taught me good values.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: Has it helped you in terms of fitting into places as well?
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I've developed a very good integration and adaptation skills, I think.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: And understanding people's philosophies of life and respecting it as well.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that's helping me today in New Zealand, I think.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: I would like to think that I have integrated this new culture very well,
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: related to my past experiences, should I say.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of that would have come as well from that time in America
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: a relatively young age as well, right?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: Heading over there.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I was lucky enough to have my uncle who lived there at the time.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I wasn't totally out in...
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: In the bush, you know, so to speak.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, my experience in the U.S. was also quite thrilling.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it was the discovery of freedom and, you know, being...
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: The boy that I was and becoming the man that I was becoming.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: Learning about what it is to make a living.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: At the same time studying.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: all of this added up to having really good skills to integrate different cultures,
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: travel around the world, not to speak about my English speaking abilities.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: It does help.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: And with, because I think initially you went to study marine biology, right?
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, so initially it was marine biology.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: Then I had to stop over because at the time the French military It was mandatory for young men.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I had to stop for a year.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: And when I came back,
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: I realized, oh,
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: maybe I should do something where I can make a living out of,
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: which is helpful as well.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I got an MBA in marketing instead.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: But I did have the qualifications for an AA in marine biology as well.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: So...
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: And military service, you had to then return to France to do that?
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, so I had to do that in France.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: I did try to do it at the French Embassy in San Francisco at the time, but it didn't work out.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: It was too late.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: I postponed it too long,
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: and so I ended up in Yerre, in the 54th Regiment of Artillery, becoming a nurse.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: So giving shots to my fellow soldiers and driving them to the nearest hospital,
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: military hospital, which was called Saint Anne in Toulon.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: This is mainly where I learned to actually evacuate people out of a helicopter.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: We had a big fire in the air at the time,
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: and I had just been trained in French-Brittany,
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: in Dinant, to be one of those people who can help evacuate.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's a few people that would be quite in favor of maintaining
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: that tradition or bringing that back in societies that don't do that anymore purely
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: from a social service perspective rather than anything about supporting
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: the military.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: How do you see that?
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  SPEAKER_00: I think it would be a great opportunity for youngsters to get a life and to understand
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: The sense of community and how important it is to be there,
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: simply be there to react to potential danger or to help others.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: For me, it's been a revealing thing.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: I thought I was losing my time.
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  SPEAKER_00: Going back to the military,
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  SPEAKER_00: but I realized that at the time some people were totally illiterate and had to sign
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: with their initials.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's in France, it was kind of scary.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then I realized, oh my God, I'm really lucky.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: I've been able to study, to travel around,
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's necessary in a way for some kids.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: I did help some of the other kids or some of the other guys
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: who were not necessarily suited for the military service.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you have to have a special mind and following orders is not for everyone.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: So thanks again to my adaptation skills.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_02: So you knew this was a finite time.
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  SPEAKER_02: You've got a year.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I just had to just grind it.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: But I also was recruited as a nurse.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a funny story.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's a regiment of, I mean, artillery battalion, right?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: So...
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  SPEAKER_00: They tried to find out where you're going to fit better.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: I remember sitting in a tank and they were trying to make it attractive to you
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: because they had this
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Video games where you could shoot at planes and things like that inside the tank
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: and I found that really boring.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I asked a few questions and the officer who was in charge then answered that
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: the life expectancy of a soldier in a tank was two minutes, a time of war.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that was enough for me.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: I said, no, this is not for me.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't mind, I'll just go and check the nursery.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not a pacifist, but I'm always acting for peace.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: And saving the soldiers was more interesting to me than killing them.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: There's a fair amount of pragmatism involved in the decision around not picking
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: the tank though as well.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Understanding that.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, growing up, you know, you also learn in the U.S.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: I had several experiences where I learned that you've got to be careful where you go
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: and life is about choices, you know, and who you meet and who you hang out with.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's a wild jungle out there.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: Although as a French kid, you'd be pretty street smart, wouldn't you?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: Coming from Africa, I was.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: In France, it was a different story.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: My life in France was in the countryside, a small village of 600 inhabitants.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: We lived in the mountains.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so a big part of my weekends was spent,
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: cutting wood with my dad or taking care of the property around the property or,
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: you know, I just, I just, or doing my homework basically.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: So being in the countryside,
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: we were a bit isolated, not any different than where we're here in New Zealand.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, for me,
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: it's, it's all about adaptation, making the best out of what you have, you know.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: How was that culture shock then moving back to France for school at the age of 15?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think the biggest culture shock I've experienced was when I was 15,
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: when I came back to France and I realized the impact of seasons.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: Winter you had to cover yourself,
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: put layers on,
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: wear shoes,
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: and waking up at six o'clock in the morning to catch the bus to go to school,
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: which was an hour away.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: All of that.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: I used to go to school on my bike in Africa.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: This was a cultural shock for me, adapting to the seasons.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: And what about socially?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously,
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: this is pre-social media,
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: but at 15,
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: that's peak social trauma in terms of the classroom,
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: what's happening in the
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: classroom.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: Was this exciting for the other kids?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, there's this weirdo from Cameroon,
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: or how was this for you?
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, they didn't really pay much attention to that, I think.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I wasn't really into this differentiation that much.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: I was more busy trying to adapt to a new life and integrate new concepts.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: I did make friends really quickly.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: I always had some kind of a hidden talent for meeting people.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: And when did the artistic streak start to come through?
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's always been with me.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: I remember my mom in Africa asking me if I wanted to take drawing classes,
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: extra drawing classes with this person who was giving children,
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: you know, classes for drawing.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember just saying,
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: oh, I would really love that, you know, just being in connection with all this.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: I remember...
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: Artisans coming to the house and suggesting masks, artifacts, and things like that.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I was always around the arts world,
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: even in Africa, and meeting interesting people with interesting minds.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: My parents were always open to new cultures, new environments.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: We'd go camping sometimes in the northern part of Douala in a place called Kribi on the coast.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: We'd always just set up camp on this beach under a coconut tree.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Sounds idyllic,
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: but it was right next to a village and all the kids knew that we were coming,
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: of course.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: We'd come around and we'd share our meals together and then they'd take me fishing
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: on their little boats.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: We just had so much fun playing in the waves.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Life was fantastic for me growing up in Africa.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's given me also a lot of talents,
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: a lot of abilities to understand The culture and the differences between the tribes
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: and all that stems into my artistic
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: I guess background we see today in what I do or recently I was invited in
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: an international clay festival in Australia and I was making demonstrations
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: of my technique which is ropes and plywood.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, I made everyone participate.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: So there you go, integrating people into what I do, being open to that.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: And also, I ended up making a Tiki, which is one of my totems.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: A face that looks like a Maori face with the end of a haka with
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: a tongue sticking out, you know, and it made everyone laugh and everything.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: But it is part of an integration of a culture, a new culture that I'm integrating myself.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I figured I might as well do that even on Australian land.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's an interesting one around France's colonial past.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: There you go.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: So the masks.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: You see that in my work today,
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: if you dig into that and if you try to get to know me a little bit better.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: But to go back to our conversation today,
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think, and that's the reason why The Unmaking has resonated to me.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think my life has been a succession of unmaking and making,
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know, and I see it in my work today.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: Being a potter, I mean, every potter will tell you, you make and you unmake all the time.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that's part of being an artist as well, I think.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: You got quite far down the corporate route.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think even getting as far as a job interview with Philip Morris.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: He did, yes.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: Was there a moment
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: Were you had a sort of come to Jesus moment and realize, oh my God, what am I doing?
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: This is definitely not for me.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: Or was this just a gradual realization that you perhaps had this artistic street
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: that you'd be better off pursuing perhaps rather than
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: a corporate world?
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: This is when I got back to France with my degree, interviewing for different jobs.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Not that we think about it.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: What happened is I was interviewing in Aylesbury at the time to be a market manager
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: in the tobacco industry, Philip Morris.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: There were about 200 candidates for one market manager,
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: which I later found out was for Burundi.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: It was at a time when the Hutus and the Tutsis were destroying each other.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I only found that out at the last minute.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: When I realized that I was filtered out as being There were ten candidates,
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: amongst the ten candidates of the 300 or 200 that they had previously contacted.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: Again, having a flashback here,
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: but in the military service I asked, what's the life expectancy of a tank?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there again, where is this going to take place?
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: They said, Burundi.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm not going.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I walked away.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well,
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: I guess it's not because I'm not courageous.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that I'm just fearful of dying.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I love life, you
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: know, I love life.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: I love people.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't want to do what I had learned to do in marketing when I was going to school
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: in the U.S.,
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: In a country where social unrest was going on.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: But I had been filtered out later on,
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: I found out,
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: because I had lived in Africa,
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: lived in Cameroon,
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: and they figured somebody who's lived
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: in Cameroon could always just adapt more easily.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: And they were after these adaptation skills and integration skills, so I was fitting in.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I let go of that opportunity, if it was ever an opportunity.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: And decided then to go more together with your cousin, is that right?
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: So then at the time, my cousins were looking for someone to collaborate with them.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a business that my dad and my uncle had set up a long time ago.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: So we figured, oh, let's join forces.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: Do some work together.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: And there again,
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: all of a sudden,
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Philip Morris tries to reintroduce cigarettes into the Cameroon market.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so here I am in charge of conducting a market study
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: and picking up cigarette butts in local markets and trying
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: to find out how many cigarettes are being smoked on the field.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I found out that,
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: in fact,
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: Philip Morris hasn't left since the depreciation of the Central African franc.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's still on the market because they're still smoking cigarettes by a percentage
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: that was quite interesting.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: 80% of the cigarette butts were Marlboro cigarettes.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: But Philip Morris didn't realize this.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_02: They knew that.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: They knew that.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: But they were trying to get a...
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: To get an importer to reintroduce legally the cigarettes,
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: because they were the product of contraband.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I later on found out,
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: and I'm probably revealing something here,
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: that it was in fact orchestrated by Philip Morris itself, that contraband.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so I saved a bit of money to my uncle then.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: Then we had a bit of an argument with my cousins.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: Not that it was just major, but I realized that there was no future for me there.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: Because I had been studying in the US,
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: going back to Cameroon was a bit of a different cultural shock again.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't like the way we were running the business.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: It was not for me anymore.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: I would have loved to live in Cameroon,
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: but I had to let go of an opportunity again just for the sake of my sanity.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so I left them a year after I had decided to go and work for them
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: and started my own business.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: Dealing antiques and restoring furniture.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: And also with an importing,
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: exporting,
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: so buying them from a certain location because... Yeah,
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: so this is where I discovered France really because I had lived in France
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: but hadn't really traveled in France.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so through my activity as an antique dealer,
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: I would travel to different regions with my van,
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: and go and visit different antique dealers who had shops here and there
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: and maybe furniture to restore and things like that.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: I would go into campaigns of buying stuff and restoring it and then, you know, just selling it.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: And when I had sold enough,
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: then I would go back again and then go to a different region
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: and discover different styles,
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: regional styles and furniture and the same idea of learning as you're going along,
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: you know.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: And figuring out what sells and what sells really well.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: And in that process,
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: being able to speak English the way I did from my studies,
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: I managed to actually organize
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: A portfolio of clients from the U.S. who were interested in several things.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'd be looking for those things, be it an armoire, chest of drawers, special style.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: And whenever I came across it,
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'd take a picture, send it instantly to the U.S. and go, is this what you're after?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: Would you be okay if I sold it to you for that much?
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: And just getting organized this way.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_02: And it was
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: quite an interesting job, actually.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: This would have been pre-internet then, or early days of internet?
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_02: It was early days, early days, yeah.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: So you could email people photographs, but they couldn't go and find all this stuff on websites?
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, no.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: Or they would come once a year,
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: and so what I would do is I would buy the stuff,
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean the furniture or the antiques, be it a mirror or anything.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: I had large capacity in my parents' house,
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: which was 200 years old,
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: a big farm building, so I could stock and store everything in there.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: Until they'd come and then their container shipper would just come and pick it up
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: when they were here and just get organized this way.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I would stock also a lot of antiques around the house.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: And soon enough,
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: I had enough of a name for people to actually call me and say,
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yannick, are you still after this?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then it was a better organization.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: And all of a sudden, it was working really well.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: And this is how I came about making pots as well.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: I was also restoring the old endures pots from
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: the 19th century using self-made staples when they were cracked.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: I developed a technique around patinas and how to work around clay without being
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: a potter originally.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: After my first divorce,
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: I was driving around trying to find something to do apart from selling
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: and restoring antiques.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: I happened to drive in front of this pottery, which later on became my family's pottery.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: It was just another funny thing of life, just a funny twist.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: I just happened to wander around and I overheard a conversation of the owners at the time.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really worried because I don't speak English and we have this delegation
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: of Japanese businessmen coming.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: This is organized by the local bank and the Chamber of Commerce of NIME.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: How are we going to do this?
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because nobody really speaks English.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then I just lifted my hand and I said, Hey, I can do.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that's how I came in.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: And they ran me through the whole process.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I sort of organized something to be able to speak about how to make them and things.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the clients that they picked up is still a client at our company.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: So the Japanese delegation was visiting the...
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: They were interested in buying, you know, French handcrafted products.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so they were visiting the pottery where we were making the traditional Andu's pot, you know.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and this guy is an interesting businessman, Kaneko.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: His name is Kaneko Corporation.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: They have a whole bunch of building machinery and they're into the construction business.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: But he wanted to diversify his business and building apartments and things like that.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: He's developed a branch of his business into decorating them and then selling them.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: So now what they do is they put our pots around the apartments,
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: on patios and things,
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: and then they sell the whole structure, the whole thing, all together.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that's how they were selling our pots.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: And now they're still doing,
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think I talked to my sister recently and they're still doing a 40 foot container
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: of pots every year.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: That's awesome.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: So that was really, really good.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I think highly of this business because this man has got a very good work ethic
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: and he treats his collaborators really well.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: Reputation amongst the company and it's very much in line with our values and
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: so yeah I'm careful about that too.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: I've made a lot of amazing discoveries since moving back here but one
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: of my personal faves has definitely been 1964 magazine and I'm stoked
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: to welcome them on board as The Unmaking's first partner.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: Laura and Nathan produce four beautiful issues a year celebrating
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: the special individuals and creativity to be found
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: in Aotearoa's more remote locations.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: Each issue features the work of over 20 writers,
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: photographers,
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: illustrators,
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: designers,
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: artists and poets and showcases small local businesses making and doing good things.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's essentially a Venn diagram solar eclipse with The Unmaking's guests.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: A 1964 subscription is hands down the perfect gift to yourself or a loved one,
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: and you can get your swagger on in the knowledge that for the cost of
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: a flat wipe per month,
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: you'll also be supporting around 100 of our independent creatives each year,
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: as well as helping me keep the lights on here at The Unmaking.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's what those in the trade like to call a win-win-win situation.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: Speaking of dubs, head to www.1964.co.nz forward slash dubs.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: To subscribe and enter the promo code MOUNTAIN
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: to receive two free issues inside New Zealand or check the link in the show notes.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so you started working then for that pottery initially,
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: or you went, hey, this is great, and I want equity, or how did this start?
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, so initially,
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't do much,
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: and then, well,
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: the owner at the time had a partner as well,
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: was a bit younger, but he, I mean, they both became, you know, sort of like
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: Not good friends, but friends we'd have a dinner, share a dinner with.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: And one evening,
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: Jean-Pierre at the time,
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: Jean-Pierre Sarsouriau, he mentioned that his partner was thinking about retiring.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I looked at my dad and I said, hey, and that was the time when I was divorcing as well.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: I said to my dad, hey,
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think that would be a great opportunity for both of us,
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: you know, but I don't have the capital to invest.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: So we need to do that together.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: But and after this conversation, we just got on track.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: My dad had
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: An apartment in Trocadero in Paris.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: It was trying to sell for years and it wasn't moving at all.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I said, look,
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to try to sell it for you,
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: but maybe we can use that money and invest it in that pottery and then buy
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: the shares of that partner who wants to retire.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so soon enough, we sold the apartment.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: We got a bit of capital to get started.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: We borrowed a little bit of it and then we were on track.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I was learning to be a potter.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: And also learning to be in business with your dad as well.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: How was that?
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: That is major.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: I will always be grateful for this.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: My dad didn't live very long.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: He died.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: He was 65 years old.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: In his later days of life, we were working together.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: And as, again,
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: the beautiful human being he was,
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: he was sharing his knowledge of life, working with me at the same time.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: I remember very well, he was fighting a cancer.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: He was coming back from chemotherapy session.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: He always wanted to help me out and so at the time we were going from the franc to
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: the euro and a lot of people had a lot of cash and so they'd come
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: and spend their cash in pots and in turn we'd be loading Pots into the back
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: of their trucks, you know, cars and in exchange for money, of course.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so we were making a lot of cash at the time.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: Not that it's a secret.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: And this one day I popped open the hood of a station wagon and it was full of hair.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_02: I thought you were going to say cash.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, full of hair.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so the owner was transporting his dogs or something,
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know, just in the back and, you know, blankets with dog hair everywhere.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember my dad wearing his binny because he'd lost all his hair himself,
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: saying, oh, somebody must have had a chemotherapy here.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's his humor, you know, just humor saves everything, honestly.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: And, um, Yeah, I'll always remember this moment.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good way to teach people to be grateful for what you have.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_02: Were you similar personalities?
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes,
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think so.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: And so did you find it easy working together or were there a lot of clashes?
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: No, it was very easy.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: My dad was always a people's person.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: He was very good in sales, very good at understanding the psychology of buying and acquiring.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so he was in charge of sales.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: I was in the workshop.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: Making pots and learning how to make pots up to a point where
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: after his death we were running the business.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: My sister joined us later on afterwards and we were running the business
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: and it was just in the heart of the global financial crisis I remember and most
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: of our customers were American customers.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: Dealing with people who were losing their houses because of the subprime crisis and all that.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: So nobody was buying pot anymore.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: So we could see our clients' list just diminishing.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: By the week,
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: and we were selling a lot of pots to the U.S.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: And this one year,
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: there was a potter swap meet going on in Honduse in a public park.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: And this man, Gilles Bercer, was making a demonstration of his technique around 24 people.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: Under the sun, felt sorry for the guy.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: He was sweating like hell, but he was still happy.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: And surely he loved what he was doing so much that I took a bite at it.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I sat down next to him with a pitcher of rosé and two glasses,
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: and we shared a few glasses together.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: He was really thankful,
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: and later on,
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: He said to me,
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yannick,
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: I would have never done this if it hadn't been for this glass of rosé
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: that you kindly brought to me.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: He came to the workshop for a week and we organized a training session and I make
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: a living out of it now.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: Ropes and plywood and elbow oil.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: It was a good day, a good picture of rosé.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: But it started with wine.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: And we're sitting on the vignette, you know.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_02: And so he taught you that technique?
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_02: So he came in his family?
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, he learned it himself from someone else.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's been transmitted to me,
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: and I would like to be able to transmit it one day to someone else.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: Hence the reason I accepted to go to Australia and to show that technique
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: to some potters there as well.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, he had learned it.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: He was a farmer himself, actually.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: He had a little pig as a pet following him around, you know, a dwarf pig.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: And he was very much of a people's person as well.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, a lot of connections, a lot of dots connected to each other.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: I always quote connecting the dots from Steve Jobs.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: We had talked about that, I think, a while ago.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: So if you have a chance, just try to follow up on this.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: And you'll find out that when you look back,
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: you've done things not knowing why, but you were doing them.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: And all of a sudden, it leads you to where you are today.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: What was your dad's creative outlet?
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: My dad was not much of a creative person.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: He was just a very, I wouldn't say that.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: He would have loved to be able to play the piano,
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: but he didn't want to put the hard line into it.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: He loved wine.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: He could not have a wine cellar to himself because he loved to share it with people.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess his creativity was with people.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so when did you feel that you could call yourself a potter?
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_02: Then how long did that take from starting to work with that technique?
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: And to be knowing that, okay,
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't just learned this to understand the business,
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_02: but this is the thing that I do now.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: Learning the technique is one thing.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: Being aware of your creative mind is another thing.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: I really started thinking about pottery when I started,
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: and I didn't know that at the time,
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: but when I started restoring those old pots when I was in the antique business.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: And from one thing to the other,
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: I became a potter when I learned how to make pots with my staff.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_00: And ultimately when I met Gilbert Serne,
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: he came for a week to teach us how to use his technique to make gigantic pots.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: Then I started mastering the technique and only then could my creativity kick in.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: So it always starts with knowing how to do things and then all of a sudden
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: Your ideas come out and you make them come true.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: So the creative process is an interesting one, I think, for me.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: Most people would think,
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: it's like being an artist,
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: it comes by itself and it just flows,
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: but you go through huge moments of doubts and It is part of The Unmaking as well,
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: I guess.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: You make and then you have to unmake because it's not holding together or because of the season,
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: The clay is too wet and then you get collapses and then you have to find a reason
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: for it and then find a solution to be able to keep on making those pots and then in
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: the process of being technical you forget about being creative.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a little bit like farming.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: You sow,
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: you plant,
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: you prepare,
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: you work with the seasons and only if you're lucky and if you don't have a frost
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: and all of a sudden you can have cherries or then you can have pots as well.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: Are pots as pottery, as clay?
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_02: Could it have been anything for you?
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think there's a version of your life where pottery and clay has no role
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_02: in it, but you're a furniture maker or you're doing something completely different?
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's a very good question, John.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: Or would it always have been clay?
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: as I said,
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: I started dealing antiques and restoring furniture,
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: so I could have been a carpenter as well.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: But this is where my technique really falls into place.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm using plywood and so I'm having to use plywood to prepare the shape of the pots
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: that I want to make.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm still working with wood in a way.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: So the dots here to connect would be
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: The antique business restoring furniture and all of a sudden popping into learning
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: to be a potter and using ropes and plywood and your mind and your hands
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: to make beautiful pots here in New Zealand.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: Jumping from one country to the other,
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: from one activity to the other,
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: but always having this connection to having an open mind,
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: to being curious and learning ways to do things that you want to achieve.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think thinking about the objects themselves and around,
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: because I would be surprised whether or not you would be content with something
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_02: that was purely aesthetic.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: So, for example, furniture also has a role.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: So that chair's got to look beautiful,
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_02: but it's also got to be able to hold your weight when you're sitting in it
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: and not give you a sore back.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_02: So you kind of almost need...
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think that's fair that you're a person that would need that sort
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_02: of multi-componentry or complexity of the creative pursuit that you're on?
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: There is...
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: There is a dimension that has to be aesthetic for me,
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: but there's also a functionality to things that I make.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: It has to be functional.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: So the pots that I make are originally for your garden or meant to integrate a landscape.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: The functionality here is to plant trees or flowers, but
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: The aesthetic part for me is also part of the creative process in terms
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: of creating patinas that fit into the landscapes, for instance, of New Zealand.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: I've recently created a patina called Centro Otago.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it really looks like the hills that I have in front of me right now was
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: the colors of the summer after a rain.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: So you get a bit of green, a bit of yellows, a bit of brown, a bit of bareness from the hills.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it just really comes out on the patina of the pot itself.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_02: And where does that start then in the process of a pot?
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_02: Are you thinking about that patina regardless of any pots or pieces?
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's very hard for me to answer this question.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a process by which,
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: for instance,
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: I will be walking down my stairway to heaven,
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: which is the workshop, and looking at the hills around me.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: Little do I know, this has an imprint in my memory.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then while I'm preparing the pots for a kiln,
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: then all of a sudden I start thinking about this.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to reproduce it.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: And this is how it happens.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I start making it.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I will only be able to see it when I open the kiln.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: But I can imagine what it's going to look like from experience.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: Mixing
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: copper
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_00: into a clear glaze will give me a green color.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I work like this.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: And by deduction, I apply a whole bunch of pigments to
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: The surface of the pot to imitate what I have seen previously
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: when I was walking down to the workshop.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_02: And by a process of iteration on lots of small samples and things,
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_02: or when is that point where you go, no, I'm balls in, I'm committing now.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just committed.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm usually just committed.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: I don't take the time to,
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_00: whether I should or not is another discussion,
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: but I just don't take the time for it.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: I just allow for serendipity to happen as well.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you learn a lot from serendipity.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to be confident as well.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_02: And how much of it is when you say,
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_02: okay, the alchemy, I don't know if I can recreate that again.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: And bugger me,
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: I should have written that down exactly because I was in a little bit of a hurry
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_02: and this is perfect.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: This is where I try not to be too technical because it will kill my creativity.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I keep it in my mind.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a pure product of
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: Being free, I think.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_00: Having a free mind.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: Then again, I get clients who will ask for something that they don't really know.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: They have an idea of what they would like to have in terms of patina, for instance.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then by talking to them and exchanging and maybe seeing a few pictures,
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: looking at different settings around their house,
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_00: then maybe we can get to somewhere.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: But as I'm talking to them,
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: then I get the idea from experience,
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_00: from things that I've made before, that I can probably do that.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then I get into it.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't make any sampling or anything like that.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'll just go straight to the thing and just make it.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's a bit gutsy, I admit.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: But most of the time, I'm not too far from reality.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think you figure out your best ways of working for yourself, right?
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_02: And what's true to yourself and what works for you.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_02: For sure.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_02: And that would have been a process of trial and error that you know how this works for me.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for sure.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's worked for me before and it'll work again and again.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: Which is also a bit of an issue when you're working in the corporate world.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because when you're in a team you have to take
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: into consideration other people's ways of working.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_00: I understand that some people You need that structure where you're doing trials
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: before you get to something and being able to reproduce it.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's like cooking.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: Some people follow recipes.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: I don't follow recipes.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: I always allow time for serendipity to occur.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_00: There's general ideas about what you use for certain things or for certain types
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_00: of food,
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_00: and then around that,
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: that's the main structure,
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: and then around that,
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: there's space for creativity,
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: and they add a little twist of something that makes a difference.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so the creative process for me is an interesting one.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_00: I've often tried to describe it, and one asked,
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: About what I do,
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: I usually say that I'm sitting between the work of an artist and the work of
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_00: a craftsman.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's always in between those two.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_00: But when I think back about my life,
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: I've always been sitting in between, on the fence of one culture and the other.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: So it's translating into what I do today.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's quite a challenge though.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_02: And also that then once the production side of things comes into it,
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_02: then that sort of thing around being a factory, that whole, you know.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I've tried to part from that when I moved to New Zealand.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_00: We were into a factory at Le Chenevers, my previous company.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: When I left France, of course, I left it behind.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that was The Unmaking for me.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: But recreating something here having to do with what I like to do, which is making pots.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just about making the pots.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's about creating something new or doing something bespoke or trying to transmit
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_00: a message about this.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: And to go back to your question originally about...
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: When a client comes and asks for a special shape or a special color,
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_00: what I'll do is I'll probably draft a pot and sometimes
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_00: get a picture of the place
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: where they want to put it and then draw it onto the picture,
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: onto a paper version of the picture
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_00: On the site they want to put the pots in and then they get an idea,
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_00: a precise idea of what it's going to look like.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_02: And what about then the elements?
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_02: So the shellfish, there's fish, there's octopi coming through more of a feature.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_02: Is this a phase that you've gone through in the past or is this the development of your art?
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_02: How do you see this?
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_00: This is really a new thing.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_00: Philippa, my wife, has resigned from her previous job in December last year.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_00: Ultimately,
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_00: this has given me a little bit more time to myself and to what I do,
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_00: so I've devoted a lot more time to my creative mind, being more free in a way.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_00: This translates into Philippa taking care of our boys a little bit more
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_00: and me Putting my head into the workshop a little bit more and coming more often.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_00: All of a sudden,
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_00: my marine biology background takes me to,
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: octopus and sculpture and using clay and integrating,
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_00: you know, this material, wonderful material to what my mind is wanting me to do.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah,
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_00: I get into sculpting now and I've developed a new branch for Or a new target
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_00: for my business, which is more on the art side of things.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_00: Probably targeting one or two art galleries would be nice.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_00: Having a chance to exhibit what I do,
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_00: but in terms of what we understand as art,
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_00: as a sculpture, rather than as a horticultural part.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this has opened up a few doors to New things that I can make.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_02: How nervous does that make you?
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_02: Leaving your comfort zone with this thing that you've learned,
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_02: that you've developed,
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_02: or is this just,
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_02: it's not a huge departure from what you've been doing,
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_02: it's an exploration five or ten degrees off to the left or the right?
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_00: I would say, I mean, definitely in my comfort zone.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_00: It would have been a lot less comfortable for me the previous years not knowing
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_00: where I was going.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_00: Now I see
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_00: materialization of
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_00: where I'm going.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, I'm in my comfort zone.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_02: How long has this been now that you and Philippe have been working together here
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_02: with this vision?
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's been since 2018 when we arrived here in New Zealand.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_00: We built this huge shed with the view that maybe one day it could become a winery,
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_00: but at the moment it's a pottery.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then always integrating
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_00: The vineyard, the family life, my potter's ability and techniques.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_00: I've also developed
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_00: the idea of making amphoras for winemaking instead of using oak barrels.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so we've come up with a Pinot Gris made in amphora.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: All of that is integrated into our lives.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's a full making.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of research as well for something like that and trial and error exploration.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: So we get into trial and error there and we have to be extremely technical there
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_00: because we're working with porosity.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_00: And porosity for me translates into thickness of the pot, but also
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_00: firing temperatures.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: The higher you fire your pot.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_00: The tighter the porosity is going to be.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: But you do want to have some kind of exchange with the outside world as well
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_00: when you're making wine.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_00: So it's got to be porous enough that it looks like what oak would be.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_00: But you don't want to leak too much.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want to lose your wine either.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, it's trial and error.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it's still a long process.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm still trying to work on it.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_02: And is that then something that you can get assistance on by working with
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_02: a scientific organization that can tell you, well,
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_02: if you've got 10 degrees here,
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_02: then this will give you so much more porosity or whatever the measurements are?
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_00: I would definitely work around that.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_00: And there's enough information now on the internet about this.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_00: I know that there's a special temperature you've got to go to.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_00: Then you have to source the clay that can go to that temperature
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_00: because some clays just do not go to 1100 degrees Celsius.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_00: Some clays just melt like an ice cream in the sun at that temperature.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, you've got to find the right composition.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's a long process, but nothing good happens overnight.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_02: Eight years in,
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_02: you've got a plan,
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_02: but you're also starting to deviate from the plan or explore new ways
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_02: that perhaps weren't on the drawing board in 2018.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_02: In 2018, it was just a fresh new start.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_00: Adapting to the seasonality of Centro Otago.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_00: As I said earlier, you know, it's like farming.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_00: Trying to find the right technicians to install the kiln, finding the right clay.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_00: All of that is a long process,
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_00: but we finally I've come to realize that it's not all efforts lost.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_00: I've recently come up with a full kiln of pots with about 20 pots in it
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_00: and no cracks whatsoever, which is amazing.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_00: Amazing results.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_00: I used to have on average about 20% of my pots in the kiln that were cracking
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_00: because either I could not control the temperature going up or control
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_00: the temperature going down.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_00: There's an inversion point when all the Materials that you're using
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_00: when you're making your pots, which is critical when they're transforming together.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: And this quartz inversion temperature is based around 580 degrees, between 450 and 580 degrees.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_00: And you've got to be careful not to ramp up too quickly at that point,
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_00: but that's going up and that's also going down in temperature.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_00: All of that was about controlling the temperature in the kiln.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_00: And up until a few years ago,
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_00: when I met this wonderful chap in a local business here,
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_00: we wrote a whole temperature controller together.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_00: And now I can control the temperature on the kiln to the degree.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of ramping up, ramping down.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of ramping up, ramping down.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_00: And that's giving me so much more comfort into making those pots.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's amazing.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so with that,
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_00: I can start developing,
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_00: you know, for a business a little bit more with a little bit more confidence.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_00: I've met the young chap who is now running with his partner, Potters Nelson's Clay.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_00: They've come up with a formula that really suits me in terms of clay.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_00: So we finally get to the end of it in terms of true kiwi pots made by an imported Frenchman.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_02: And Amphora as well.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_02: And Amphora, yeah.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_00: So that's another product for me, another category, another product range.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_00: So there's the art range,
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_00: there's the garden design range,
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_00: there's the architect range, there's the wine industry range.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you have all my target markets here.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_02: And with a view to let's see how it goes and one of them or a couple
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_02: of them might become less significant.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm confident that the future will tell but I think more and more we're going
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_00: to spend time on the marketing of the French Potter.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_00: You were asking me about the Shell and all this.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_00: The Shell is more of a logo for me now.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_00: It used to be that I noticed a lot of shells on the Compostelle Walk in France
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_00: to Spain, Santiago de Compostelle.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_02: The miles from the coast.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_00: But it was a currency for the pilgrims.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_00: And you see it on architecture, you know, on buildings.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's engraved on buildings and stone buildings and wood.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_00: And along the walk, you see it everywhere.
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I figured that would be a great logo for the French Potter and the Antipodes.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's become...
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's become an emblem of voyage, in a way.
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_00: And being next to Invercargill or the Roaring Forties,
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_00: you know, I picked up that shell, you know, and bluff.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's a clam, really.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah,
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_00: putting the French potter New Zealand around it is kind of a nice way
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_00: to introduce what I do and where I come from.
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_02: And do you have a favorite part of the work that you'd say, hey, this is everything else.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_02: If I could be opening the kiln.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_02: 20 times a day, that would be my favorite part, or would it be something else?
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_02: What's your favorite part of the creative process?
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_00: There's always going to be a magical moment when you open the kiln and you discover
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_00: the end product of what you've created.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's a new birth each time you open it up.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_00: But for me, there's a magical moment at every stage.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's my happy place next to fishing.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_02: Do you see similarities with that?
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_02: Because there's also a surprise element to fishing, right?
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_02: It might look like a big fish or feel like a big fish.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_00: There's always that surprise moment.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I guess this is what I'm addicted to.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_00: This is my life addiction.
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's the surprise element.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's breaking the routine.
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's getting out of these boundaries and just having faith into what you do
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_00: and just being confident in
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_00: knowing that what you're doing is going
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_00: to come out right.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so if I go out fishing and I don't catch any fish,
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_00: at least I would have had a good day of peace on the water.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_00: If I make a pot and it breaks,
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_00: it's only a good way for me to build resilience and to find a way to fix it.
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_02: How long did it take you to get to that point where you're okay saying that
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_02: and accepting those breakages, those things that didn't work?
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_02: They're not always easy as young people, I think.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's perhaps not a default setting that we come on to.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_00: I remember my dad telling me, when you'll be older, you'll be wiser.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I think as we go on in life, we learn.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_00: There's bumps.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_00: There's always a moment where you will doubt about who you are, what you're doing.
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_00: But it's always worth it.
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_00: And if you don't take risks, you never get anywhere, I think.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_00: And part of it has to do with taking risks, but they have to be a little bit calculated.
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_00: And by that I mean the calculation of my risks has been just to dig on my experience
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_00: and to keep on going forward,
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_00: not letting these accidents or these cracks on my parts or these moments
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_00: where I would have doubted of myself affect me too much so that I can keep on going
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_00: and keep on moving forward.
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_00: I guess that's the way I would explain it.
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then I rely a lot on people around me.
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's important to share,
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_00: to communicate,
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_00: to laugh,
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_00: to, when I say sharing, sharing a meal, sharing a coffee, sharing a glass of wine.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_00: I learned my technique through a glass of wine,
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_00: a glass of rosé, you know, and That's the way life goes.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_00: People will give you confidence.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_02: When I look at you and Philippa,
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's one of the interesting aspects of what I do is getting to meet people
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_02: who have had the good fortune and good skill of picking a partner that has
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_02: so amplified whatever it is that they can do.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_02: And you guys are two examples of you're like the lead actor in each other's film script.
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of like you'd written a film script ready to cast the person and then
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_02: the person has come.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, there's my lead actor right there or lead actress.
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Philippa is key to my integration here in New Zealand, definitely.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_00: And to my integration in a...
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm getting an element of stability in my life.
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_00: I would like to say something about my in-laws as well.
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_00: They've been key to my integration here, Peter and Anne Shepard.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_00: They've been Really wonderful in terms of me,
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_00: letting go of my country at 50 and with his little cherubs and Philippa,
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_00: just a new country, a new culture, embracing everything, you know, just like this.
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_00: It would have been easy for me to do it by myself.
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I will always be grateful to them as much as to Philippa,
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_00: my wife, who's just been a wonderful partner for this.
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_02: You talked before about giving your kids roots and wings.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_02: Do you feel that you were missing one of those?
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_02: Were you missing the roots perhaps?
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_02: From my kids today?
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_02: For yourself, from your own upbringing.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_01: So you mentioned about giving
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_02: your children roots and wings,
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_02: and I think you've certainly had plenty of wings,
• 1:08:27
  SPEAKER_02: but I just wonder in terms of looking at your upbringing,
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_02: where you've lived,
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_02: how you've lived,
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_02: and perhaps this is the time where you're putting in your root here,
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_02: making that very conscious decision to say our day to your country.
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:08:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this has definitely been a choice,
• 1:08:45
  SPEAKER_00: a personal choice,
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_00: giving roots and wings to my children by coming here in New Zealand.
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_00: I have had lots of wings,
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_00: you're right,
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_00: and I'm very fortunate for this,
• 1:09:00
  SPEAKER_00: but come to think about it,
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_00: If I look at my friends back in France,
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_00: they will always relate to the community within a village
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_00: where their grandparents are from.
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_00: I've sort of lost contact with all of this myself, being brought up and born in Africa.
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_00: I do know from what my parents have told me that we have ancestors
• 1:09:29
  SPEAKER_00: in French Brittany,
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_00: in Normandy,
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm pretty sure I could look back and just go after these people now
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_00: who are part of my family.
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_00: And they would be my roots, but I've never had any contact with them.
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I've been missing roots, definitely.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_00: My friends in southern France are definitely a pure product of the local economy
• 1:09:57
  SPEAKER_01: and local history.
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_00: I am French, but I'm a citizen of the world.
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I've just recently been
• 1:10:10
  SPEAKER_00: given or granted Kiwi citizenship,
• 1:10:13
  SPEAKER_00: which means I've got a Kiwi passport now.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I call myself a freewi, just like my children.
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_02: I like that.
• 1:10:21
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't heard that expression before, but great.
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_00: So just like my children.
• 1:10:25
  SPEAKER_00: My children were born in France, but they're half Kiwi, half French.
• 1:10:31
  SPEAKER_00: There are freeways as well.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_00: So the three of us call ourselves freeways.
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_02: That's great.
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_00: But that's also an integrated word to talk about integration.
• 1:10:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's the best way to define integration, I think.
• 1:10:47
  SPEAKER_02: And to pick the best things from those,
• 1:10:49
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:10:50
  SPEAKER_02: from your culture,
• 1:10:51
  SPEAKER_02: from your upbringing,
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_02: from the countries you've lived and said, like, I didn't agree with all of it.
• 1:10:55
  SPEAKER_02: That bit was a bit shit.
• 1:10:56
  SPEAKER_02: But actually, this thing was pretty good.
• 1:10:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you guys would do quite well to have some of these values.
• 1:11:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, sure.
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_00: And to go back to my partner and Philippa, my wife, we do have, we do complement each other.
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_00: We were very lucky to meet each other this way.
• 1:11:16
  SPEAKER_00: Through pots again at the Chelsea Flower Show.
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_02: Have you done any sort of like tracing back the near misses where you were actually
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_02: at that same flower show the year before and didn't meet each other or things like
• 1:11:30
  SPEAKER_02: that?
• 1:11:30
  SPEAKER_02: Were there parallels to you?
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_00: I had never been at the Chelsea Flower Show until I came into her life.
• 1:11:37
  SPEAKER_00: But she was interested in the pots before the potter.
• 1:11:40
  SPEAKER_00: So she fell in love with the pots before the potter.
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_00: She was visiting France,
• 1:11:46
  SPEAKER_00: southern France,
• 1:11:47
  SPEAKER_00: and she happened to knock at the door of the workshop
• 1:11:54
  SPEAKER_00: just before lunch.
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_00: And if you do that in southern France, they're going to close the door to you.
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I was lucky enough that she came back afterwards.
• 1:12:03
  SPEAKER_00: Knowing her now, she would have just gone really, really upset and just never come back.
• 1:12:08
  SPEAKER_00: But she did come back.
• 1:12:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember clearly seeing her one summer.
• 1:12:14
  SPEAKER_00: It was really hot.
• 1:12:15
  SPEAKER_00: And nobody spoke English in the workshop except me.
• 1:12:19
  SPEAKER_00: And the salesperson who was in charge in the sales area came rushing into
• 1:12:24
  SPEAKER_00: the workshops
• 1:12:25
  SPEAKER_02: going, somebody speaks English, they don't speak French.
• 1:12:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I remember clearly coming out of there with my apron full of dust and clay
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_00: and seeing Philippa, this little limpet.
• 1:12:40
  SPEAKER_00: LAUGHTER Kiwi Limpet in the middle of my pots and just going, oh my god.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_00: I was single at the time.
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't have any relationship.
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_00: I was just really burnt out.
• 1:12:51
  SPEAKER_00: I had a child from a previous marriage and I was just resigning to living my life as
• 1:12:58
  SPEAKER_00: a solo father,
• 1:12:59
  SPEAKER_00: just taking care of my kid and then doing what I do to the best of my abilities
• 1:13:06
  SPEAKER_00: and just become a famous potter and that's it.
• 1:13:08
  SPEAKER_00: Not necessarily famous, but a good potter.
• 1:13:14
  SPEAKER_00: Seeing Philippa, I just remember, oh my God, what am I doing here, Yannick?
• 1:13:19
  SPEAKER_00: You're crazy.
• 1:13:21
  SPEAKER_00: She wants pots in New Zealand.
• 1:13:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's never going to work out.
• 1:13:26
  SPEAKER_00: We kept in touch for a year, because she was really willing to bring pots here at Domain Rewa.
• 1:13:34
  SPEAKER_00: We kept in touch for a year.
• 1:13:36
  SPEAKER_00: We met at the Chelsea Flower Show where I was probably the only Andrew spotter
• 1:13:40
  SPEAKER_00: to exhibit my pots but thanks to me speaking English and again my integration
• 1:13:45
  SPEAKER_00: and adaptation skills I was driving the car on the other side now where the car was
• 1:13:49
  SPEAKER_00: a big truck and a big trailer full of pots in the middle of London unloading my pots
• 1:13:56
  SPEAKER_00: at the Chelsea Flower Show and just amongst you know other obviously well
• 1:14:01
  SPEAKER_00: and talented
• 1:14:04
  SPEAKER_00: Gardeners and garden designers and decorators.
• 1:14:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember inviting Philippa to the Chelsea Flower Show.
• 1:14:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that year I won sort of a prize through a friend who was just presenting
• 1:14:21
  SPEAKER_00: a garden through the fresh category.
• 1:14:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I just designed with my team a whole set of
• 1:14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Garden furniture out of my pots was really amazing.
• 1:14:34
  SPEAKER_00: The theme was life after the fire and it was sponsored by the Cancer Society.
• 1:14:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so we had created a little creek with orange glazed towels through his garden.
• 1:14:50
  SPEAKER_00: And my big bowl pots had turned into seating
• 1:14:54
  SPEAKER_00: and everyone was sipping champagne throughout the whole show on them.
• 1:14:59
  SPEAKER_00: And Philippa was walking with me around and I showed her the garden and that's
• 1:15:04
  SPEAKER_00: when it all happened.
• 1:15:05
  SPEAKER_00: And she's done so well that instead of bringing pots, she's brought the potter back.
• 1:15:23
  SPEAKER_00: But she's never given up on her roots.
• 1:15:26
  SPEAKER_00: And she's another person who's got roots here.
• 1:15:29
  SPEAKER_00: So in a way, by adoption, I've adopted her roots.
• 1:15:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think you can marry into roots for sure.
• 1:15:37
  SPEAKER_02: For sure.
• 1:15:38
  SPEAKER_02: And take meaning from that.
• 1:15:41
  SPEAKER_02: And then also then pass it on to your kids.
• 1:15:45
  SPEAKER_02: And what relationship do you hope they will have with France?
• 1:15:49
  SPEAKER_00: So we have decided, Philippa and I, and that was pre-COVID, that we would go back to France
• 1:16:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's becoming increasingly expensive to travel back, but we will keep on going back to France.
• 1:16:11
  SPEAKER_00: We just need to go through a transition phase at the moment,
• 1:16:15
  SPEAKER_00: where we need to secure our businesses,
• 1:16:19
  SPEAKER_00: and that includes Domaine Rewa,
• 1:16:21
  SPEAKER_00: which in the process,
• 1:16:23
  SPEAKER_00: although I've inherited her roots,
• 1:16:25
  SPEAKER_00: I've also inherited another type of roots, which is the vines.
• 1:16:29
  SPEAKER_00: And the overhead costs as well and all that.
• 1:16:32
  SPEAKER_00: So we need to come up with a more financial situation before we can actually,
• 1:16:39
  SPEAKER_00: a more stable financial situation before we can actually think about traveling again
• 1:16:44
  SPEAKER_00: with the children as well.
• 1:16:47
  SPEAKER_00: But we are planning to go back to France next winter,
• 1:16:51
  SPEAKER_00: that's December, next Christmas, next year.
• 1:16:56
  SPEAKER_00: We
• 1:16:58
  SPEAKER_00: will definitely be devoted to this idea of keeping in touch with France.
• 1:17:06
  SPEAKER_00: We also translate it here.
• 1:17:08
  SPEAKER_00: By creating a little patch of Provence,
• 1:17:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean we're sitting next to those plane trees which it's spring now
• 1:17:17
  SPEAKER_00: and they're burgeoning but in the summer there's a lot of shade underneath
• 1:17:21
  SPEAKER_01: there and
• 1:17:22
  SPEAKER_01: so we like to have a
• 1:17:24
  SPEAKER_00: luncheon every once in a while outside.
• 1:17:26
  SPEAKER_00: We enjoy this part of the house and we're still amongst the vines so there's still
• 1:17:33
  SPEAKER_00: a bit of touch with France there.
• 1:17:36
  SPEAKER_00: And we've got an olive orchard.
• 1:17:37
  SPEAKER_00: We've got, you know, lavender all around.
• 1:17:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm still feeling like I'm in Provence, although I'm in New Zealand.
• 1:17:47
  SPEAKER_00: That helps.
• 1:17:48
  SPEAKER_00: And French tourists, many French tourists come through?
• 1:17:50
  SPEAKER_00: There's a little French community around here.
• 1:17:53
  SPEAKER_00: I don't necessarily keep in touch with the French community here.
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I should.
• 1:17:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that I miss it either.
• 1:18:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm quite happy here.
• 1:18:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's a choice that I made and I follow up with my choice.
• 1:18:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I can imagine.
• 1:18:07
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean,
• 1:18:08
  SPEAKER_02: if I was the country of France,
• 1:18:10
  SPEAKER_02: I think I'd be pretty happy for you to be my ambassador.
• 1:18:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I would imagine that France would be saying,
• 1:18:17
  SPEAKER_02: hey, let's get Yannick to do a few more things for us.
• 1:18:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, sure.
• 1:18:21
  SPEAKER_02: And show people what a great country France is, because France isn't particularly well known.
• 1:18:27
  SPEAKER_02: Specifically for language skills, you can start there.
• 1:18:30
  SPEAKER_02: In terms of French people internationally, that's a real challenge.
• 1:18:35
  SPEAKER_02: And around the French technique, perhaps world open to other techniques and things like that.
• 1:18:45
  SPEAKER_00: And in return, when I go back to France, I mean, I talk about New Zealand.
• 1:18:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess I'm not an ambassador of New Zealand,
• 1:18:56
  SPEAKER_00: but I think I'm a good advocate of the good sides of New Zealand.
• 1:19:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I speak highly of New Zealand.
• 1:19:06
  SPEAKER_00: Most of my friends will ask me questions, you know, how is life there?
• 1:19:09
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, and then there's social media as well.
• 1:19:12
  SPEAKER_02: And So you went to, I think, to California or to America with the Eagles in your head, I think.
• 1:19:22
  SPEAKER_02: Hotel California.
• 1:19:24
  SPEAKER_02: Hotel California.
• 1:19:25
  SPEAKER_02: What's the New Zealand soundtrack
• 1:19:28
  SPEAKER_00: become?
• 1:19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Crowded House.
• 1:19:33
  SPEAKER_00: I used to listen to Crowded House in California again.
• 1:19:37
  SPEAKER_00: I was listening to Crowded House.
• 1:19:43
  SPEAKER_00: Again, there's my father around.
• 1:19:46
  SPEAKER_00: He was a pillar in the family, but he had always wanted to live in the southern hemisphere.
• 1:19:54
  SPEAKER_00: For him it was more Australia because he was not too aware of New Zealand,
• 1:19:58
  SPEAKER_00: but I'm sure he would have loved New Zealand.
• 1:20:01
  SPEAKER_00: And the first year, 2018,
• 1:20:03
  SPEAKER_00: when we were back,
• 1:20:04
  SPEAKER_00: I had to keep myself busy, so I was pruning in the wristling block here.
• 1:20:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I witnessed one of those beautiful firing skies that you get in the winter.
• 1:20:19
  SPEAKER_00: Red and orange and yellow.
• 1:20:21
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, so powerful.
• 1:20:23
  SPEAKER_00: I had to sit down in the frosted grass,
• 1:20:26
  SPEAKER_00: you know, and just take it all in and just take a breather.
• 1:20:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember having a conversation with my dad then.
• 1:20:37
  SPEAKER_00: And he said to me,
• 1:20:39
  SPEAKER_00: if I relate this story to other people,
• 1:20:43
  SPEAKER_00: some people will probably think, you know, this guy is crazy.
• 1:20:46
  SPEAKER_00: But I was having a conversation with my dad, truly.
• 1:20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Look, your son is here in the southern hemisphere, and look at what I'm doing.
• 1:20:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm taking care of vines.
• 1:20:59
  SPEAKER_00: You used to like your wine, you know.
• 1:21:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's so good to be in communion with you here.
• 1:21:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that day, really, it was the true realization that I was doing the right thing.
• 1:21:20
  SPEAKER_00: And from then on, I had no doubts that this is where I was going to have my roots from now on.
• 1:21:30
  [music]