Latest / The Layback Podcast / Dan Mahoney, "Rehab Pitching Guy" (Ep. 42)

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Dan Mahoney, "Rehab Pitching Guy" (Ep. 42) · The Layback Podcast

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Hey, everyone, welcome back to the Lay Back podcast.
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Joining us today is Dan Mahoney. Dan Mahoney you might know as
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the rehab pitching guy on Instagram.
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He also runs player development lab in Virginia around the DC
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area. And previously, he served as the
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rehab pitching coordinator for the Cleveland Guardians.
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Also had a brief stint in pro ball himself.
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Torres, UCL, went through Tommy John, had a miraculous 10 month
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recovery. So maybe, maybe we can get into
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that a little bit. But we we already reminisced
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about the beach and living down in Florida.
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I think he and I are both trying to figure out something.
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They're making a, a bigger play. Got to convince our wives to get
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back down there or something. But with all this, I'm going to
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pass it over to Dan, let him pick up the pieces of the intro.
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So, Dan, thanks again for coming on.
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Yeah, thanks for having me out. Yeah, like you said, had a short
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stint in pro ball, tore my UCL two months after I signed when I
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was with the Marlins. Learned how to love Florida
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while I was doing my rehab down there and really just from that
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point on, was really infatuated with like how to keep guys
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healthy and stay healthy myself while also trying to improve
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performance. So I was able to spend 2 years
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with the Cleveland Guardians as their rehab guy, and now we're
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back in the private sector trying to help guys get healthy
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and kind of bridge that gap between rehab and getting back
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to performance. Well, there's so many places we
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can go with this, but one of the ones that I wanted to get into
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right away, and I apologize if this is just going too deep too
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early, but you served as the rehab pitching coordinator with
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the Guardians, but you are not a physical therapist, athletic
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trainer. You are a baseball guy who went
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through it. And yes, we can talk about your
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day-to-day, but I'd really like to get into the education, the
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knowledge and experience kind of debate of where you fall in.
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What made you qualified for this position Because you you did a
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great job with an organization that does very well by their
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pitchers. And I just love to open up the
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floor for this one. Yeah, so when I was going
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through my rehab, I spent a lot of time with like the AT CS and
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strength conditioning coaches and really just like you have a
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ton of time on your hands. And so my kind of outlet was to
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learn about the body and try to figure out how to maximize my
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potential to get back and continue on the path to try to
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make it to the big leagues, which unfortunately never ended
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up happening for me. But then I always kind of kept
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that with me during my playing days and kept kind of learning
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and trying to see which outlets I could learn from.
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I never finished my degree at the University of Connecticut.
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So all of this stuff was kind of self-taught and self motivated
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to learn about. And then when I was done with my
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playing career, I did an internship at a PT clinic up in
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Boston, MA, which is where I'm from.
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And that kind of gave me a little bit of insight as to like
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what this whole process looks like on the other side.
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And so really from the time that I had Tommy John till then, it
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was just like, OK, this is what I've done and this is how we can
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implement it. And then after I had that
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experience, it's like, OK, there's a lot more to this.
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So it's really just kind of been almost like 10 to 12 years of
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like self study, learning from a bunch of different outlets as to
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how the body moves, what makes performance performance, how to
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go about it. I've made a ton of mistakes,
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just like every halfway decent coach and feel like the process
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is still being refined. And so to me, it's just all
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about continuing to learn and, and continuing to be open to new
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ideas and thoughts. And I always kind of gravitate
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towards the weird thoughts and kind of the fringe thoughts and
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just the fringe way of doing things just because I think that
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there's so much that we've done for so long and to me it it
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hasn't worked. So we've got to look at other
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ways to kind of bridge the gap between the old stuff, which
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works in some capacity, but it also doesn't and, and bringing
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some new ideas and stuff like that.
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So it's just been self education and, and really just leaning on
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my experiences. And then from the standpoint of
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like what made me qualify as I cared, I, I didn't want guys to,
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to go through like the way that my career ended kind of on like
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a rocky road of having the yips and, and stuff like that.
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So it's really just about educating yourself and making
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sure that you're helping the guys and you're best foot
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forward every day. Not only a knowledge standpoint,
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but also just like a care standpoint.
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Being into the fringe or weird stuff is probably how we got
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connected because I recognize that Flexpro Grip is pretty
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fringe and pretty weird, but hopefully we can make it an
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industry standard soon. It's it's right up my alley.
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Like I've been messing around with rock climbing grips for
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about 3 years now and having our pitchers do that.
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So that's what really kind of brought me to you guys.
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And when I met your dad, Darrell, down in Arizona, I was
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like, yes, this is finally what I've been looking for.
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Some would actually measure this stuff.
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So yeah, we're we're we're two peas in a pod.
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Yes, that that's what it sounds like, just picking Darrell's
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brain before we got on the podcast, asking if he had any
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questions. But another thing I want to call
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back to is you saying this long process of self study, willing
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to make mistakes, and again, gravitating to the weirder
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fringe. I think one of the blessings in
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disguise of not really having the formal education is you're
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open to looking more places for answers or for guidance.
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You aren't stuck in the traditional or stuck in a
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textbook for how to handle a certain situation and it puts
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you in these new maybe uncomfortable spots where you
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have to try something just to figure out what a solution could
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be. And I'm sure that's a lot of
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what you tried on yourself. Probably a lot of trial and
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error or trying to figure out why am I following this book
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that we consider to be law with every step of my rehab process.
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If me and this guy next to me aren't built the same way, don't
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throw in the same role, don't have the same experience or
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training history. I'm kind of rambling here and I
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would love if you could just pick up what I'm putting down,
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but that's kind of my take on traditional education versus you
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being so interested in a field and as you said, just having
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care factor. Yeah, I mean, I think at the end
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of the day, coaches, we're just problem solvers and the bigger
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of a toolbox or the more things that you have to kind of lean on
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to help you gain that one experience.
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Like solving problems comes with gaining experience and and
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knowledge and kind of time on the on the field and stuff like
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that. But I think when you're trying
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to solve problems and you only have this one frame of like, OK,
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this is how this joint is supposed to work or this is what
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this exercise does. It's like, OK, but there's got
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to be another way because this is not just A1 size fits all
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approach and coaching is not that.
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Coaching is like you have an individual in front of you and
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you got to figure out what works for them both from a verbal
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cueing standpoint, from a constraint standpoint to OK, how
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are we going to program for this guy?
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How does his body reacting like you're always just constantly
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solving problems. And so the more kind of
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different lenses that you can look through solving those
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problems through it's, it's just helps you.
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And I found that like in my coaching career, it's always
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been like, OK, I'm not actually trying to solve the one issue.
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I'm trying to solve all the underlying issues.
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Like I don't really look at a guy throwing and like, OK, we
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have to solve for this one thing.
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It's like, OK, what are the chain reactions that are
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happening that are causing this issue or this decreased
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performance? And how do we get to the root of
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it? And I think that with like some
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of the fringe stuff, it's like it just brings you into a
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different world of where we're actually starting to look at
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those root causes versus, OK, like, why is this guy having
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pain with throwing? OK, well let's look all the way
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down deep under the hood and get a real sense of what's going on
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from a movement standpoint, and then we can start to work back
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towards the performance or the pain stuff.
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I think a perfect example of that that I'm going to ask you
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to call upon is you had a post the other day on Instagram about
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a guy trying to find his proper plane of rotation using APVC
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pipe from his chest to do it. I'd love if you could just take
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us down that case study, that individual athlete case study of
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how you selected the drill, why you knew to go the planes of
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rotation route and like maybe who this is for.
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Yeah. So I've worked with the athlete
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for a number of years. Obviously it's it's been a
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couple years with me being out in Arizona and I was able to
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spend some time with him the other morning and just kind of
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saw that he was kind of like almost leaning his head to the
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right and kind of keeping everything in a tad bit of
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flexion during his plyo drills. As a righty, correct?
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As a righty, yeah, as a righty, correct.
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Just kind of took me back for a second and it was like, OK,
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like, why is this happening? What what is he?
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What is his one, his thought process?
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And so that was part of the conversation is like, what are
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you thinking like for this drill?
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Like what's your goal for this drill?
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What are the cues that you're giving yourself internally that
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may be causing this? And then had him stand up, kind
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of took him through a little bit more progression, which you
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don't see in the post. But as I kind of dug a little
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bit deeper into his prior routine, he was just kind of
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lacking that little bit of extension through the spine to
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get him into a good spot. And so from there, like it was
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just him and I working together for about 1/2 hour, 40 minutes
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to try to get him to feel the difference in that point of
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rotation with a little bit of extension.
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So the conversation piece is huge.
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And, and that's where that care factor and building the
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relationship with your athletes to where they're open to having
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those conversations are huge. Because if he's not open to
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telling me about his intent on the drill or that it doesn't
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feel right or something like that, like we're not going
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anywhere, but he was because of our history and, and stuff like
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that. And so I was like, hey, let's
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just try a few things. Let's see if you can feel some
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things from an extension standpoint that help you when we
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put a baseball back in your hand.
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And we were lucky enough to kind of stumble upon the PVC pipe
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drill to where he was just playing with different planes of
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rotation from basically a right right hand sidearm slot to a
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little bit higher of a three quarter slot with the PVC pipe.
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And I just said like try to make this PVC pipe bend as much as
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you can. And then figure out where it
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feels best for you. And then let's try throwing.
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So it's really that test and retest model and kind of self
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discovery. I mean, I try to tell all my
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guys like there's no one way to throw.
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There's no one way for you to move.
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There's no perfect way for anybody to move.
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You've got to figure out what works for you and the positions
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that you need to get into to make yourself the best that you
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can be. And so I really kind of lean on
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my guys to explore themselves and be open to new ideas, just
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like we should be as conscious. So now let's take that same
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thought and put it in the rehab process.
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With the rehab process being so cookie cutter, where can guys
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find their individuality or where would you implement the
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individuality or the freedom, again, for guys to find and
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express movements the way that their body may want to versus
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what we're commonly seen of whether it's starting with a
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specific dart throw or super constrained plyo drill where
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guys have to fit the specific mold?
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Yeah, I think the rehab process, we give guys too much leeway
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early on and not like figuring out what caused the issue.
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It can be anywhere from like the workload issue to a move in
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issue or a combination of the two or anything under the sun.
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But me personally, I like to get guys to move as athletically as
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possible as early as possible in their return to throw programs.
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I think when, especially if you have a post op that hasn't
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thrown the ball in several months, like the last thing I
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want a guy to do is walk away from their first day of throwing
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and feel like they were just throwing darts.
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Or if they weren't happy with their throwing program.
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Because that kind of sets a stage for the next few months of
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getting them back on the mound and stuff like that.
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And so the way I look at it is like we take away those 45 foot
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throws and I just tell guys to be athletic on the pad.
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Hey, let's find a couple of drills that you like to do
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during your time when you're healthy.
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Let's see what those look like. They'll be video and, and radar
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guns on them just to make sure that we're monitoring intensity
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and I can go back and, and see what those look like.
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And then from there, it's like, OK, what do you do really well
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or what did you do really well? And what do you feel like you
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need to improve on? And so that's where we take kind
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of like the athletic throwing approach to I'm going to give a
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guy a double hop. I'm going to give a guy a step
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in or roll in or a quick pick or something like that.
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And it's really just working with them to explore those
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movements as early on in the throwing program as they can so
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that they then can take that and say, oh, that felt good, great.
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I'm going to hold on to that. That's now in my routine versus
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I feel like with the traditional like return to throw program of
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like 50% effort and use your legs and stuff like that.
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It's like it just kind of puts guys at a disadvantage because
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you're the volume of throwing is so high.
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And so if you wait too long in the process, now you've just
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compounded an issue that's going to take a lot longer to fix.
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And by that time you're probably already getting ready to shift
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towards performance and you just don't have that time.
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So for me, it's like as early as possible, let's figure out how
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we can make things better for you, whether that be a change in
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pattern, whether that be just a change in how you're moving or
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rotating or anything like that. Like, let's get to it as soon as
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possible so that we don't compound on it.
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I would guess that approach also helps guys feel like they're
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baseball players again sooner rather than, I don't know, a rat
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on a wheel, just turning it over and over and just going through
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the motions every single day. It's got to feel good when you
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go into rehab treating it as a chance to actually get better
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rather than just checking off the box that yay I did my
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throwing again. Can't wait for Wednesday to to
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pick up this ball again. Yeah.
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And and like that's that's the biggest thing is just to like
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make sure that they're actually in a good mental headspace,
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right? Like if I can feel good about my
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throwing every day when I'm only throwing three days a week, like
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chances are that's going to compound and and you're going to
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be in a good mental headspace for a longer period of time.
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In the rehab, stuff pops up of like tiny setbacks and stuff
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like that. But if I can get the guy in a
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good headspace as early as possible and get a little bit of
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buy in and as to how he's moving and how he's feeling, that makes
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that whole process easier. Where it hasn't gone well is
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when they're very resistant to change or they're very resistant
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to trying new things early on. And then like you kind of lose
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them for a little while. And then the only time they come
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back to you is when they're really struggling and, and they
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and they have that kind of set back or they've been shut down
15:59
again and stuff like that. So to me it's you got to get the
16:02
buy in on the guys quick. And, and I think that part of
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that for me and what I tried to do the Guardians was like, Hey,
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you're thrown in two weeks. Like how do you want this to
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look like? What are what are your thoughts
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on like trying new things? What do you feel like makes you
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the best version of yourself? And, and really working with the
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athlete to kind of make sure that they're one, excited about
16:25
the process and two, like they're bought into what you're
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thinking and telling them as well.
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I think that's a really valuable piece is putting the athlete's
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desire in the forefront like so they see it, they they can
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envision what they want to be and whether that is purely from
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the visualization standpoint or just giving them more ownership
16:49
of the process. There's again, back to taking
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the rat off the wheel and actually making them feel more
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of more of like the molder of the clay rather than the one
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that's being molded like they they actually have a say in the
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process. Yeah, and that's the biggest
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thing. And, and I feel like that's what
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makes the early parts of the process successful is if they're
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bought in and if you can get a player to buy in, whether it's
17:13
rehab, whether it's just normal performance training, whether
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it's from mental performance stuff, if you can get someone
17:19
bought into it, you're going to have a better outcome.
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And the only way that you can do that is building that
17:24
relationship and, and being like, Hey, I'm here for you.
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I'm not here for myself. I'm, I'm not like, I'm not going
17:30
to get paid anymore. If I put my stamp on this.
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I'm just here to help you be the best version of yourself that
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you can be and get back to achieving the goals.
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And I think like to the point earlier, it's like, this is
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valuable time for a lot of guys in the rehab space.
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Like it's, it's now like most guys are 1416 months.
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Like that's a good majority of time that if you just get back
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to like the status quo of, hey, I threw a pitch again, like
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that's not good enough for these guys, especially at higher
18:00
levels. It's I need to get back on the
18:03
mound and I want to use this time to be better.
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And that's kind of the way that I tried to phrase it to guys is
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like there's going to be a shift in this process from like, hey,
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we're just building your volume intensity like a normal ramp up.
18:16
But when you get back onto the mound and after we've got a
18:20
couple bullpen sessions under our belt, like I need you to be
18:23
able to switch your brain to return to performance.
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And my job on the front end was to make sure that they were
18:30
going to be prepared for that and make sure that they were put
18:33
in enough days of like a little higher intensity throwing and we
18:38
were able to actually reach certain velocity thresholds
18:41
versus like if you just follow the status quo, like there's no
18:45
velocity recommendations, it's just a 50% effort or RPE and
18:51
like most. On an arc, whatever on an arc
18:54
means. Right.
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And like that's that's one of the things that like I'm trying
18:59
to do with all the guys that I'm rehabbing is like all of this is
19:03
subjective. Let's make this process as
19:05
objective as possible to get you to where you want to be.
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And if we can do that, like you're going to be in a much
19:11
better spot. And also like as a coach, I can
19:14
objectively program versus we've got these amathros today at this
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distance was been this, I don't care.
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I don't really know how you're feeling.
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I don't know how anything else is happening.
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I don't have a ton of data. We're just going off of VLA
19:28
readings and your subjective feedback in my eyes, which
19:33
sometimes you miss stuff as a coach.
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Well, I wasn't originally going to go to this place so early,
19:41
but one thing you said about the time in rehab or the time in
19:46
these return to throw programs being 14 to 16 months until guys
19:50
are getting back on the field. There was a quote that I'm going
19:55
to paraphrase because I don't remember it word for word in the
19:58
recent MLB pitcher injury report that said something along the
20:03
lines of guys find comfort in the injured list now.
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Maybe I don't know the context because it's not the world that
20:13
I lived in. You obviously served as rehab
20:16
pitching coordinator and are working with these guys face to
20:19
face constantly. I'm doing it more on a contract
20:22
basis with Flexpro. RIP.
20:23
Just trying to help guys get back.
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How did that make you feel? It gave me a weird mixed
20:29
emotion. Like, I get it, guys are still
20:31
getting paid when they're on the injured list, but nobody wants
20:34
to be hurt. They all want to be competing.
20:36
At least that's it from my perspective.
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Yeah, I mean, I think that there's there is a little
20:41
validity to it, OK. I think that there are some guys
20:44
who they may see the writing on the wall of like, hey, my career
20:48
may be over as soon as I I get healthy again.
20:50
And so they fall into that category of like, I'm just going
20:54
to be comfortable here and just kind of go through the motions
20:57
and stuff like that. But for the most part, like guys
21:00
are miserable in rehab. Like I remember I was miserable
21:03
in rehab because it's the same thing every day.
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You're in the same location. Like you're not with the guys
21:09
who you were drafted with and stuff like that.
21:11
Like there's a lot of misery in rehab and like guys go through
21:17
ups and downs mentally of am I ever going to be able to pitch
21:20
again and, or am I ever going to be the same guy I was again.
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And, and that's, that's the majority of guys.
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And I don't think it's fair to say like there's comfort and
21:31
rehab. Like guys do not want to be
21:33
there. Guys want to get out of there as
21:34
soon as possible when it's 120° in Arizona and you have to do
21:38
the same thing every day for months on end, like you're going
21:41
to want to get out of there. And so I think yes, a small bit
21:46
of validity on like small cases of guys getting comfortable.
21:49
But for the most part, I think that that's kind of like a short
21:54
sighted way of of looking at it of like guys just get
21:57
comfortable and rehab and then they go.
22:00
Yeah, I was trying to think back on cases that either I had
22:03
witnessed and I think you bring up a good point, but that's
22:07
that's getting in more to the business of baseball.
22:10
If guys know that their career is going to end, they're going
22:13
to be released, they're not going to be cut while they're
22:16
rehabbing still, that's a that's a whole separate issue.
22:19
But yeah, so maybe, maybe if guys are smart enough to know
22:23
there's writing on the wall that once they get healthy or get
22:26
cleared, they're they're done. So but yeah, I mean, we play
22:30
this game to play the game. My head just kept going back to
22:34
that when I was reading the quote, but it was eye opening to
22:38
see. And it makes me think that,
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gosh, I'm trying to think of the right way to phrase this.
22:43
I don't think it's a cynicism that guys have or that
22:46
clinicians have, but maybe those people are also recognizing that
22:51
they're just kind of in this pit of despair in a way that they
22:55
don't know where to go when they're in this rehab.
22:58
They don't know what's going to change.
23:00
They don't know what's going to be different.
23:02
They don't know what's the next step, how are they actually
23:05
going to get better. So they've more just found this
23:07
comfort in where they are because they at least know that
23:12
they have the same thing every day.
23:14
Just kind of like flipping the same thing we just said to the
23:17
other side, like flipping our lens on it.
23:19
Like, are they comfortable? Just because life is consistent?
23:23
At this point, there's no guesswork.
23:24
They show up, they do their work, they go home.
23:28
There's a lot of mystery in rehab right from like, like I
23:32
said earlier, am I going to get back?
23:34
Am I going to be the same person?
23:35
And a lot of these guys, baseball is the only thing that
23:38
they've ever done, especially at the high levels.
23:41
And like they don't really know themselves without baseball.
23:45
And a lot of their personality is tied into them as a baseball
23:49
player. When that gets taken away, they
23:52
kind of don't know where to go or who to be or how to really
23:56
react to that. And I, I know that I personally
23:58
struggled with that during my rehab was like, who am I if I'm
24:02
not Dan Mahoney, the pitcher. And so I think that there's a
24:07
lot of stuff that goes on internally as a player when
24:10
you're going through the rehab process is like, if this doesn't
24:12
work, like what am I going to do after baseball?
24:14
If I fizzle loud or I don't reach my full potential or if I
24:17
never play again, like what do I do?
24:20
And so I think you may have a lot of guys who to your point,
24:24
like they do find comfort in that because it's like they
24:27
don't have to think about it because there's so much else
24:29
going on in between the years of like, what if this happens?
24:33
What if this there's a lot of what ifs in rehab and, and
24:36
really trying to say that like guys are just comfortable and
24:40
stuff like that. And yeah, they probably are
24:42
because it's constant and it's easy.
24:45
I had a guy my first year, Anthony goes, who was a big
24:49
leaguer as a center fielder. And then he pitched for the
24:52
Guardians for a while. And he's like, this is the
24:55
easiest thing that I've ever done in my baseball career.
24:57
I show up, I, I throw on the days that I need to throw and I,
25:00
and I lift it every day and, and then I go out and do whatever I
25:05
need to do on, on the back end. And, and so I think older guys
25:08
have a little bit better grasp on it because they know what
25:11
it's like for a full season. But I think when you get a
25:14
younger guy who hasn't established himself or hasn't
25:17
really made a name for himself in an organization or in
25:21
professional baseball, like there's a lot of what ifs and
25:23
there's a lot of question marks around it.
25:25
So they find comfort in the fact that I know what I'm going to do
25:28
today and that's that. So, but I don't think it's like
25:32
they're just comfortable being there.
25:34
I think that there's a lot going on behind the scenes.
25:37
I want to call back now on your own process making it back in 10
25:42
months. You have cited all this mystery
25:44
or unknown with rehab and you also quickly mentioned that your
25:49
career kind of ended with a case of the yips or struggling to
25:53
really throw the ball. So what were your unknowns
25:57
coming out of rehab? Were you fully confident getting
26:01
back on the mound again? I mean, just 10 months, I know
26:04
that's that's pretty abnormal, especially for what we know
26:07
today. But was there even enough
26:09
documentation in when did you say it?
26:12
Was it 2011, 2009 when this happened?
26:16
Did you even know that? That was an unbelievably fast
26:19
rehab then. So the pitching coordinator at
26:23
the time with the Marlins challenged me to get back faster
26:27
than Josh Johnson did. And so I took that as like a
26:31
personal challenge and like I made sure that I was basically
26:36
the first player at the park every day I was working out
26:40
because guys were strolling in like already through my first or
26:44
second shirt, like down down in Jupiter, FL during the summer,
26:47
it gets pretty, pretty steamy. So I, I didn't know like the
26:51
whole rehab process and like what it took to get back.
26:54
Like I really didn't have a clue as to like what a good
26:57
progression should look like. And there was no real like
27:01
objective data during my rehab process.
27:04
It was just like, Hey, you're elbow's straight.
27:06
Hey, we've hit the timeline to where you can start throwing
27:09
again. Hey, we went through the
27:10
throwing program and you know, you're good to get off the mound
27:14
and then you're back into games and stuff like that.
27:17
So I was very in the dark as to like what a good rehab process
27:23
looked like. And to be honest, I don't think
27:26
anybody really knew what it was like back then.
27:29
I think we're just going off the time and, and sheet and making
27:33
sure that everything was clear. And I was fortunate to not have
27:36
any setbacks during my process, which allowed me to just kind of
27:40
roll right through it. Now, looking back on it, like I
27:43
was not the same pitcher coming back.
27:45
I was back competing in games, but I was not throwing as hard
27:50
as I'd wanted to or had done in the past.
27:52
And like my breaking stuff was not even close to what it was.
27:55
Like, I had no feel for a curveball.
27:58
So I had to learn a change up during the process.
28:00
Looking back on it, like I wish that I had had someone say like,
28:03
Hey, we actually need to take a little bit more time and, and
28:06
slow you down here versus like, hey, just get back.
28:10
And that's really all my mindset was, was just get back and get
28:13
your career back back on track. Because like I said earlier,
28:16
like I was two months into my professional career and then I
28:20
got it taken away from me for a good chunk of time.
28:22
So I wanted to get back and try to get to the big leagues as
28:25
quick as possible. I think what you called out at
28:27
the end there is perfect to bring up.
28:30
I I'm so glad you did it. That there's a difference
28:33
between being healthy and performing.
28:37
Yeah. I mean, guys, I think like the
28:39
standards of a return to throw are so low that like, of course,
28:44
like everybody thinks that you make it back, but a lot of guys
28:48
don't make it back to who they were or what they were.
28:51
And I think that that needs to be a mind shift within the
28:54
industry of like just getting back from ATJ or a shoulder
28:59
injury or surgery or anything like that or just an injury in
29:02
general. Like we can't just be OK with
29:05
getting guys back. We need to get them back or
29:09
better than where they were before.
29:12
You really just like undercutting people's
29:14
development. And that's precious, precious
29:17
time to where guys could be developing that could help their
29:20
career and could help organizations or colleges or
29:23
extend their careers. We need to shift the mindset of
29:26
like a quote, UN quote, return to play and use like return to
29:30
performance. OK, this is where this guy was
29:33
before surgery or his injury. How are we going to get him back
29:37
to that or better versus like, hey, we're just going to go
29:40
through the process and we'll see what comes out when, when he
29:43
gets back. And then we'll kind of take the
29:45
offseason or by then you may have used already 2 years of
29:49
this guy's career. And every year there's a draft
29:52
and every year there's a whole new crop of arms that are coming
29:55
up and, and trying to take everybody's job.
29:57
So to me, it's not right to just take a guy and be like, hey,
30:01
we're just going to go through the process like dig into what
30:04
he does well, can we get him back to that?
30:07
Dig into what he does not so well and and dig into that and
30:10
try to make changes to the whatever that is a profile, the
30:14
way that he moves, anything like that to make sure that like you
30:17
give each athlete that you work with on the return to throw side
30:21
like the best opportunity to reach their goals.
30:25
And again, it comes back to the care factor.
30:28
If you just care about getting guys back and getting numbers
30:30
and be like, Hey, we got all these guys back, but then they
30:33
don't go perform. Like to me, that's failure.
30:36
I want guys to not only get back, but also go on and have
30:40
better performance than they did before.
30:42
And if they do like that's a success to me versus just like,
30:46
Hey, you through again, right? This is going to feel like an on
30:50
the spot question, so take as much time as you need to figure
30:55
out the answer here. But if you have complete
30:58
control, what do you think a return to performance program
31:03
should look like from surgery date to getting back on the
31:07
field? This is an on the spot question.
31:12
I mean, I think my whole approach to everything needs to
31:15
be so individualized and we need to take the time on the front
31:21
end to make sure that we have a true understanding as to who
31:25
this person is. Now, I've had conversations with
31:28
people and it's like, well, we got to get him back to where he
31:32
was. And I'm like, well, is he the
31:35
same person that he was before surgery or is he a different
31:40
person? And I don't mean that from like
31:42
a personality standpoint. I mean, from like a movement
31:44
standpoint, like if you have an injury, that's trauma, if you
31:48
have a surgery, that's more trauma, like is the body going
31:52
to react and allow this person to be the same as they were
31:56
beforehand? So I think like taking like a,
31:59
this is almost like a new athlete approach and like we
32:02
have to understand how this person moves.
32:05
And so getting that on the on the forefront and obviously
32:07
there's the rehab side and the medical side of like gaining
32:11
motion back and making sure that they're healthy.
32:13
I would start testing guys a lot sooner to have an understanding
32:19
as to where their arm actually is.
32:21
Like as soon as we can implement testing, I think that that's a
32:24
great way to get a gauge as to how they're actually healing and
32:27
recovering versus just saying, hey, we gave this guy four to
32:31
six months off of throwing or four to six weeks off of
32:33
throwing. He's good to go.
32:35
Let's go try and throw. Like some guys are going to
32:37
recover faster because they take care of themselves or their body
32:41
just is able to recover faster. And some guys are going to take
32:44
more time. So having those objective lenses
32:47
on the front end and monitoring those over time is, is huge.
32:51
And that's like one of the reasons why I, I love what you
32:54
guys are doing is because there is that objective testing.
32:57
You can say, hey, like, look, we're, we're actually getting
33:00
into a better spot or hey, you're still not where you need
33:03
to be. And so the testing on the front
33:06
end and then like from a strength conditioning
33:10
standpoint, like there's so much time there and does this guy
33:14
need to get stronger? Does this guy need to get
33:16
faster? Like what, what is his kind of
33:18
low hanging fruit? Does he just need to move better
33:21
as a, as an athlete And really addressing and programming
33:25
around that. I think we emphasize too much on
33:27
like the objective measures in the weight room as to like, hey,
33:31
this guy's putting up more weight.
33:32
He's in a better spot. But like, to me, it doesn't
33:35
matter if it doesn't translate. Like I've seen some of the
33:37
strongest guys in the gym throw the slowest and I've also seen
33:42
some of the guys who don't lift anything and they've thrown
33:44
hardest and stayed healthy. And so I think it's figuring out
33:48
that balance of like, what does this guy actually need and what
33:51
what are the levers that we need to pull on during that time of
33:54
the process. And then one of the things that
33:57
I tried to implement with the Guardians was to get the guys
34:00
rotating earlier, being able to actually move the way that
34:03
they're going to throw a baseball as early as possible.
34:06
And so I used to do like what we call delivery prep sessions with
34:10
guys to get them to rotate, whether it be with like just
34:14
bear hugging on a Med ball and so that they could go through it
34:17
if they weren't cleared to hold anything heavy or start
34:22
implementing some water bag work towards the end of my time
34:25
there. Really I wanted to get guys out
34:27
of that mindset of OK, I'm in rehab, I'm just here to lift
34:31
weight and get healthy. I wanted them to start to kind
34:35
of bridge that gap of like, OK, I got a lift, but then I also
34:38
got to be able to do like go back to baseball and get their
34:42
mind shift from there. So I think that that kind of
34:45
weird time where you're healthy enough to like press and pull
34:48
things and and hold heavyweights versus like the time that you
34:52
throw, there's this like weird kind of Gray area that we need
34:55
to kind of fill in. And that's what I try to do with
34:58
like the rotational stuff and getting guys thinking more about
35:01
how this translates and transfers.
35:03
And then on the throwing side, like everything needs to be like
35:07
objectively measured now. There's there's too much
35:09
technology in the game now, whether it be from sensors,
35:13
whether it be from like we used Catapult to manage workload with
35:17
the Guardians, There's radar guns everywhere.
35:20
We need to be able to objectively measure what each
35:23
guy is doing so that we can then program their return to throw
35:27
and make adjustments as needed, whether that be pulling back or
35:31
pushing forward. And I think that the industry is
35:34
really resistant to pushing guys forward, even if they're ready,
35:37
just because you're working with surgeons, you're working with
35:41
doctors who want successful return rates and they're the
35:45
ones that are quote UN quote, driving this program.
35:49
But they never see them throw. They never actually take a look
35:52
at what they're doing. All they're doing is is testing
35:55
and rechecking their elbow. So to me, it's like at some
35:58
point we just need to let the coaches and empower the coaches
36:01
with objective data to then take over the return to throw
36:05
program. And they're now actually trying
36:09
to return to performance versus just build a bunch of volume and
36:13
slowly reintegrate intensity. Because I think if we can do all
36:18
those things and that's like a tall task, especially if you
36:20
have like 20 guys rehabbing ATJ. Like now you're actually
36:25
individualizing the programming. And you know that a lot of
36:28
people say they individualized programming and that may just be
36:31
with drills and stuff like that. But I think that there's more
36:34
layers that we can do to get guys and keep guys in a good
36:38
spot for the long term. And actually that goal of return
36:42
to performance versus just return to play.
36:45
You brought up tech in everything we have.
36:47
When are you first trying to record what a guy's doing from
36:52
the slope, whether it's Track Man or another ball tracking
36:58
software? Yeah, when, when do you
37:00
implement it and when do you actually care what those numbers
37:04
are? I mean, I'm going to implement
37:06
it as soon as possible. I want to see what's happening.
37:10
We implemented radar guns and we were able to get kind of the
37:14
workload monitoring system up and running.
37:17
So guys were actually on tech during their return to throw
37:20
program, get a report as to like, OK, this is how many
37:23
throws this guy made in each intensity bucket and stuff like
37:26
that. And so really like that helps me
37:29
as a coach kind of flag things that may pop up two or three
37:32
weeks later, which is typically when you saw a set back or
37:35
something, it's not like that initial spike, it's OK.
37:38
The next 2-3 weeks you're going to see that kind of continued
37:42
spike and then boom, I'm having forearm soreness.
37:45
So from a tech standpoint, it's during the return to throw
37:49
program and there's video and stuff like that that we used all
37:53
the time. Like my computer was filled with
37:55
gifts of guys throwing and notes and stuff like that.
37:58
So but when they get on the slope, it's day one.
38:02
Like let's see what their body's doing, let's see how they're
38:05
moving, let's see what their ball profiles are so that if
38:08
there's anything that looks odd or funky from what they used to
38:11
do, we can start to dig into that and and adjust it as
38:15
needed. So I think with all the tech,
38:18
like I know there's some resistance from some people and,
38:22
and stuff like that within the industry.
38:23
Like if you're able to like coach off tech and not just rely
38:28
on the tech, but use it to like solve problems like we talked
38:31
about earlier, why wouldn't you? It's information.
38:34
Doesn't mean you have to implement anything or change
38:36
anything, but it's information that can possibly lead you down
38:41
the path of like hey, this may be an issue or hey, this is a
38:43
really good spot keeping what you're doing.
38:46
And that aversion was very prevalent when reading that
38:50
injury report. And I don't want to lump
38:53
everyone into the same basket, but there was a few quotes that
38:57
I saw sighting. Yeah, of course we're going to
39:00
have a problem. I'm paraphrasing the quote, so I
39:03
hope everyone can accept that. I'm taking a few liberties here.
39:06
But yes, we're going to have a problem when after every single
39:10
pitch a guy throws, he turns and looks to see what an iPad says.
39:15
I mean, the the stuff on that iPad is showing him where he's
39:20
at like it's it's immediate feedback.
39:23
So I understand it. Yes, old school baseball would
39:26
say talk to your catcher, talk to your coach, go through your
39:30
process, look at a report later. But when the biggest, I guess
39:35
enemy to every one of these guys is time, they want to cut down
39:40
the feedback loop as much as humanly possible, or I guess
39:44
humanly isn't even the right word in this sense, worldly
39:46
possible, including tech in that.
39:49
So yeah, there's this weird demonization of tech in what's
39:54
there to actually support us and help guys get better and help
39:57
get the industry better, that now facilities who rely on tech
40:02
or pitchers who look at an iPad after they throw a pitch get
40:07
demonized, and that's now the culprit for why guys are getting
40:11
hurt. It's just weird to me.
40:13
I think it's a tool, and as a coach, you need to know how to
40:16
use the tools in your toolbox. And I had guys who would look at
40:20
back after every pitch and I'd like, hey, dude, like I'm going
40:23
to let you know if something's really off or if something's
40:26
really good. As a coach, it's my job to let
40:29
you focus on what you're doing. And then if we need to have a
40:32
conversation about stuff, like, we can have that.
40:35
But to say, like Tech is the issue of the injury rates in
40:40
baseball because we're chasing spinning Vilo, like at the end
40:44
of the day, it's survival. These guys are trying to survive
40:46
in their careers. They're trying to get to the
40:47
highest level. They're trying to make as much
40:49
money as they can. They're trying to get the
40:51
Division One scholarship. They're trying to get recruited
40:53
by all these teams. Like they want the information
40:57
because they want to get better and they want to have those
41:00
opportunities. And if you don't use that
41:03
information, you're not giving your players or, or the people
41:06
that you work with or anything like that, like the best
41:09
opportunity to achieve their goals.
41:11
And as coaches, like at the end of the day, that's our job.
41:15
I want each of my individual guys that I'm responsible for to
41:20
reach their goals. And if I'm not at least open to
41:24
using tech or, or the feedback that it provides or closing that
41:28
feedback loop, like I'm actually doing a disservice to my
41:31
athletes. And I think like the
41:34
demonization of tech and stuff like that, it's like there's so
41:37
much money to be made in this game.
41:39
If you can have an outlier pitch or you can make a ball move or,
41:44
or you can increase your velocity, like of course guys
41:47
are going to try to do that. That's not going away.
41:49
And I, and I think the demonization of all that stuff,
41:52
it just needs to be put to the side And like, let's get down to
41:56
the nitty gritty of it is like it's a performance based
41:58
industry. If I can improve my performance,
42:02
I'm going to do it. I understand that there's risks.
42:05
I understand that there, there may be a cost to this, but the
42:08
reward, which can be worth a lot of money in life changing money
42:13
for people's families and stuff like that, Like people are going
42:16
to take that risk. And I think as an industry, we
42:19
need to just kind of figure out, OK, when can we push on the gas
42:23
pedal and when do we have to back off and like understanding
42:27
programming a little bit better from like AD load standpoint or
42:30
workload standpoint or like just is this guy strong enough to go
42:34
through this program? That's where we need to go.
42:36
And that's where and it'll be should be looking versus just
42:39
being like pointing fingers at facilities and pointing fingers
42:43
at Trackman and VLO and stuff like that.
42:46
Everybody already knows that. What are we going to do about it
42:48
and how we're going to make a change?
42:50
Let's figure out a a tracking system or a monitoring system to
42:54
make sure that these guys are actually in a good spot and and
42:57
that's, that's the way they do it.
42:58
It's improvements in the game. It's not trying to take things
43:01
away. With all that, I apologize that
43:04
this makes you feel like a cynicist in any way, but do you
43:08
believe that orgs are putting an emphasis on preventing injury,
43:13
or do you think it's just entirely viewed as inevitable at
43:17
this point? I think they are.
43:19
I think they're just misguided. I think they want to improve the
43:23
health of their players. You see these these complexes
43:27
and the facilities and the resources that guys have now,
43:29
like it is way above and beyond what I ever had as a player in
43:33
the minors. Guys are getting actual
43:35
nutrition and guys are actually being tested on things.
43:39
But the the thing, and I can only speak from my experience,
43:42
was like, I think some of the tests that we're relying on to
43:47
indicate whether guys are healthy or ready to throw are
43:51
just a little bit misguided. Like we use some tests, you
43:55
know, but none of them were really arm specific or arm
43:58
related. And arm testing as a whole
44:02
wasn't that often. And so you go through stretches
44:05
of the year where you may only test like shoulder in your
44:08
motion or shoulder strength like one to two times a year.
44:12
Like to me, all of that stuff should be at the forefront of
44:16
the testing because if we're just testing power outputs and
44:19
strength, like great, but we don't actually know what's going
44:23
on in the arm. So what changes I guess have you
44:27
seen since you played that orgs have made?
44:31
I mean, I, I think that there's just like we're screening guys,
44:34
we're actually taking them through movement screens, we're
44:37
taking them through power assessments.
44:39
We're trying to have a holistic view as to like what this
44:42
athlete is good at and what they're not good at and why we
44:46
may need to focus on this area for them to not only develop or
44:51
improve their game, but also keep them healthy.
44:53
So I think that that's a huge piece to it.
44:55
And I think I would assume that almost every organization has
44:59
some standard testing that they do with their guys.
45:02
Like I said, like nutrition's got a ton better.
45:04
There's an emphasis on that. We have sports scientists in the
45:07
game now that are actually looking at the data and flagging
45:10
things and letting coaches know that like, hey, this guy is
45:14
really high on whether it be high speed running or like he's
45:17
down on his jump testing. Like we may want to at least
45:21
have a conversation about it. So I think that that part of
45:25
everything is moving in the right direction.
45:27
I just don't think that we figured it out yet as to like
45:29
what is best process or what are best tests to make sure that we
45:33
are able to keep our pitchers on the field and then really adjust
45:38
their workloads based off of where they're at.
45:41
I think if a guy's down in in a jump, yeah, he can still make
45:44
his start. But maybe we're not going as
45:47
deep into the game with him. Or maybe he's really low on all
45:50
this testing and because he was coming back from an illness,
45:54
it's like, OK, like let's get him his mouth touches and and
45:58
then push his start back. I think that there's just more
46:00
actionable steps to understand what's going on at the arm.
46:04
And then also like, how do we shift things?
46:07
How do we make it so that this guy is actually in a really good
46:10
spot, not only from this development standpoint, but also
46:13
from the health standpoint? I'm going to try to summarize
46:16
and you tell me if I'm wrong anywhere here or if I missed
46:21
anything. It sounds like orgs are trying
46:24
to take more action now. And with that action, they're
46:28
tracking more than they ever have before.
46:30
And with that tracking, they're trying to implement changes.
46:34
But we aren't exactly sure or they are not exactly sure if the
46:39
implementation of this, of this tracking of this action where
46:44
they're trying to make a positive change is exactly where
46:49
the change is needed. So it they're trying their best,
46:53
but they may be misguided or they might not have all the
46:57
information that they need. Yeah, I mean, and you're spot on
47:00
there. Like that's basically what I I
47:03
saw. And, and stuff like that, it's
47:05
just, I think we're just learning.
47:07
We're still learning. We were both at Wake Forest and
47:10
the biggest topic that I heard about was like, how do we keep
47:14
our guys healthy? But that to me was the thing
47:17
that stood out across the whole weekend was like everyone's on
47:20
the same mission to try to keep guys healthy but also improve
47:24
performance. And I think that within that,
47:27
everyone's got their own little ideas and their pieces that they
47:31
feel are the most important. But we just haven't figured out
47:35
what all of those are. And I don't know if we ever will
47:38
because it's it's really complex.
47:40
You're looking at fatigue guys, sleep guys, nutrition guys,
47:44
recovery, their power outputs, their strength numbers, like
47:47
their workload, like there's a lot of factors that go into this
47:50
stuff. I don't think it's anybody's
47:52
fault that we haven't figured it out.
47:54
I think we're on the right track.
47:57
I just don't know if we ever will figure it out to be able to
48:00
be like, hey, this guy's going to blow it out or hey, this
48:03
guy's going to have issues coming up.
48:05
I think that there are signals and signs, but I don't think
48:09
that it's like a guarantee that anybody's ever going to be able
48:12
to make, unfortunately. Right.
48:15
There's, there's just so many variables and you say that like
48:18
everybody has their own approach.
48:19
Of course, we believe that if we can get everything stronger
48:23
around the medial elbow, get the flexor pronator mass stronger,
48:27
those three muscles that we care most about, we're going to be in
48:30
a great place. We have a little bit of a bias,
48:32
yes, because we, we built a product around it.
48:35
But yeah, we, we, we built it from the research.
48:38
But yeah, we, we are, we are not naive to the fact that a lot
48:43
goes into what creates stress on the elbow, whether it's the way
48:47
you move, whether it's the way you're throwing, whether it's
48:50
how recovered you are and how capable you are of actually
48:53
making a throw on a given day. That I I 100% hear what you're
48:56
saying there. Yeah, I think the private sector
48:59
is going to drive this. Like we saw the private sector
49:02
Dr. weighted balls and stuff like that.
49:04
Like there's companies and organizations like your guys
49:08
that are, are trying to help aid and figure this out.
49:13
And I think that in the private sector, that's going to be the
49:16
biggest push is going to be like, you have the time, you
49:20
have the money, you have the resources, you have the ability
49:23
to like pull back from performance and actually focus
49:26
on health with a bunch of amateur players or college
49:28
players. And it's like, OK, can we start
49:31
to put these pieces together and sharing that information so that
49:34
other people can actually start to dive into it for themselves
49:38
and, and start to either buy into it and implement it or not.
49:43
You're just going to start to see all these companies pop up.
49:45
And I think that that's when we're going to keep getting
49:47
closer. It's going to take a collective
49:49
effort throughout the whole baseball community to to slow
49:53
this down. I don't think we're ever going
49:55
to stop it because guys are going to keep chasing levels of
49:58
performance and not everyone's going to have the same access to
50:02
tech, to information and stuff like that.
50:05
But I think if the baseball community can start to put their
50:09
minds together of like, OK, how are we measuring things from an
50:13
objective standpoint and what actually matters, Like, great,
50:17
we can start to implement that. And then it's like, I think of
50:20
the amount of coaches that we have across the country who are
50:23
coaching from T-ball all the way up to the major leagues and
50:28
everywhere in between us. We have to get as educated as
50:30
possible on keeping our guys healthy from a movement
50:34
standpoint, from an anatomy standpoint, from a screening
50:37
standpoint, from strength conditioning standpoint, and
50:40
everywhere in between. I think the coaches who do that
50:43
and who buy into that stuff are going to have the biggest impact
50:47
both on health and performance and and it's going to take the
50:50
whole community to try to get this thing to slow down a little
50:54
bit. Putting the onus on the
50:56
community, do you think arm injuries are now more about
51:00
education or compliance? Because you said everybody has
51:04
the same mission here. We're all trying to get
51:06
healthier. Do you think it's the community
51:09
needs to learn or they just need to listen?
51:12
I think they need to learn the right things.
51:14
I think they need to like understand, like if you go to
51:17
the private sector, it's like everyone's on a way to ball
51:19
program. It's like little Johnny who
51:22
can't do a push up does not need to be on a way to ball program.
51:25
Like he needs to actually just like learn how to move his body
51:29
and control his body through time and space.
51:31
We've got this kind of double edged sword of like social media
51:33
is great because we can share all these ideas and we can learn
51:37
about different companies who are doing great things.
51:39
But at the same time you're getting all this information
51:43
from people who they have the back story.
51:46
You as a viewer, you don't have the back story, but then you go
51:49
and implement it and it's like, oh, that didn't hurt or this guy
51:52
got hurt and something like that.
51:54
So it's like really understanding how and the why
51:57
and the when to implement things.
52:00
That's going to help change everything.
52:02
Because if you're just throwing stuff at the wall or you're just
52:05
doing it because it's making money, it's not in the players
52:09
best interest. Great little Johnny gained 8
52:11
miles an hour, but he only lasted another two months
52:14
because he blew out. Was it worth it?
52:16
Probably not. So I think it's the information
52:19
that we we're taking in and there's so much of it these
52:21
days. I get bombarded by it all the
52:23
time. I'm like looking into things and
52:25
I think it's like take the information in, distill it down
52:29
to how it may actually work with your athletes and your
52:33
populations, understand the how and dig a little bit deep deeper
52:37
into it versus just surface level and then see if it's right
52:41
to implement with your guys. I think that that's how we we
52:44
affect like the lowest kind of levels of baseball, which
52:49
ultimately become the highest levels of baseball.
52:52
And if we can do that from the amateur coaches and the private
52:56
facilities and stuff like that, if we can do that, like I think
52:59
some of the things I'm like the amateur thing in the, in the MLB
53:03
report, we can at least make a little headway on that.
53:05
That helps. So it's it's the learning, but
53:09
it's the learning and and the implementation of it and when to
53:12
do it and when not to do it. I figured that was going to be
53:16
one of those, some mix of both. It depends style answers
53:20
anyways, but I like your take on it.
53:22
I thought that was a really good one.
53:24
It's the answer of baseball coaches everywhere.
53:27
Everything depends. I, I can't, I can't remember how
53:30
many times I said that to, to dad last weekend and I don't
53:34
know. Yeah, it's the world we live in.
53:39
And there's one more topic. I, I don't say this as something
53:44
that I think will go particularly quickly, but one
53:46
more topic that I wanted to get into, which was something that
53:50
we've hinted at slightly, the MLB pitcher injury report.
53:54
I, I know when we texted before this, you said you might have
53:57
some hot takes. I'm guessing some of the hot
54:00
takes were surrounding this report.
54:01
Maybe I'm wrong and I just need to open up a hot take lane for
54:05
you just to fire everything off. But I, I'd love, I'd love to get
54:10
your take on what you read from this injury report.
54:13
You worked in the industry, you still work in it, but you, you
54:16
went from org based and now the private sector.
54:20
So you, you probably took some stray shots from the facility
54:23
side of getting guys to throw harder and helping kids get
54:26
recruited. But then on the org side, you
54:29
were, you were dealing with guys constantly returning and dealing
54:32
with poor ramp UPS, which I, I thought was a little crazy to me
54:35
thinking that organizations at this point don't know how to
54:39
properly on ramp guys for season.
54:41
I I just want to open the floor for you to kind of give us your
54:46
initial opinion on this injury report.
54:49
I think it's just a kind of way for the MLB to say, hey, we're
54:53
looking into this and we hope nobody reads this because like
54:57
we talked about this before we started recording, but like
55:00
everything that I've read and I'm about 45 pages into it or
55:04
so, like I haven't read the full thing, but it's basically just
55:07
people giving their subjective opinions And there's not a ton
55:11
of like data to back anything up.
55:14
And there's not a ton of continuity as to like the
55:17
message coming from Major League Baseball.
55:19
It's just a bunch of old players, athletic trainers,
55:21
pitching coaches and and people in the industry giving their
55:24
takes on these topics. And I don't think that MLB
55:29
really cared to like, actually give some actionable items to to
55:35
go through and say, hey, we've got to stop doing this or this
55:38
is our plan to do this. We know what causes injuries.
55:42
It's the same thing that we've all been talking about for 10
55:45
years now. Guys are trying to push to the
55:47
levels of performance. Guys aren't staying healthy.
55:50
Now we're taking a shot at Tech and we're taking a shot at DLO,
55:54
and then we're taking a shot at private facilities and stuff
55:57
like that. And it's like, great.
55:59
But what did you as MLB going to do about it?
56:01
Pitch Smart didn't work. Pitch Smart did not work.
56:04
Yeah, it's a great guideline, but it still hasn't worked.
56:07
So there's something more to it. And I think that the whole
56:11
report itself to me was just like a way for MLB to cover
56:15
their ass of like, hey, like we looked into it and here's what
56:18
we found. Now go do with it what you will.
56:22
Versus like, hey, we're actually going to start to implement some
56:25
things that may actually help pitchers.
56:27
Or we as MLB are going to start monitoring all of the big guys
56:31
who pitch at the Major League level and the minor league
56:33
level. And we're going to actually take
56:36
steps towards organizations, whatever that may be, when they
56:39
go over or when they don't take our guidance on on things and
56:44
stuff like that. To me, I haven't seen much that
56:47
I haven't already heard. It's just compiled into a larger
56:51
document in my opinion. I think my greatest take away
56:54
was just having a massive booklet, 63 pages of knowing
57:00
what a lot of people in the industry think you you said it
57:04
perfectly ahead of time of pretty much calling it Twitter
57:07
on paper. That's that's what this felt
57:09
like it. It was just my ideal Twitter
57:13
feed of just people in the baseball world, minus the the
57:16
bombing and the politics that somehow has made it into my feed
57:20
even though I don't follow any of those accounts.
57:23
But reading this made me or that's what sparked that like
57:28
education verse compliance question earlier.
57:31
I was really a little confused. Is this what people really
57:36
think? Like are we not further along in
57:39
our industry to know that training to produce more power
57:43
is is not a bad thing? Or that distance running is the
57:47
answer to everything? The there is just some like
57:51
strange things in there that had me head scratch in a little bit.
57:55
Yeah. And I mean, I think that that
57:56
just goes to show like some of the people with the highest
57:59
levels or some people that have some authority aren't the most
58:03
educated when it comes to the stuff.
58:05
I mean, at the end of the day, like you look to the figures of
58:09
Major League Baseball and you would think that they like have
58:11
the best grasp on this and have some, some answers or some like
58:15
road map that they're going to go down.
58:17
But like you read that and it's like, well, we used to distance
58:21
run and now we don't. And so that's the cause because
58:26
their aerobic system isn't it's built up.
58:27
It's like, OK, so you're what you're telling me is that we
58:32
will solve this if we just go get a bunch of marathon runners
58:35
that throw 72? Like it's that's not an answer.
58:39
Like they're just bad answers to in like I said, it's just
58:44
pointing the finger at things that are kind of easy to point
58:46
the finger at, like weighted balls like track man, like
58:51
below. They're all performance metrics.
58:53
And it's a performance industry. Like I said earlier, like guys
58:57
are going to want to perform and outperform other people.
59:00
At the end of the day, if you're a baseball player, you're
59:02
probably pretty competitive. You probably want to beat the
59:05
guy with the bat 60 feet, 6 inches away and if you can throw
59:09
harder or throw stuff that moves more, you're probably going to
59:13
have a better chance to do that then if you throw slower and
59:17
throw pitches that don't move. So it's kind of just like a
59:20
weird approach in a performance industry is like, let's just
59:24
dumb down the performance. Let's not have the best guys.
59:27
Let's have like the B tier guys or the C tier guys.
59:32
It's just not going to work. It's not a long term solution.
59:35
And not only are these guys competing on the field, they're
59:39
competing in life and the best way to compete in life to my
59:44
knowledge. Maybe this is short sighted or
59:46
seems shallow, but if you have a little more financial
59:50
well-being, you're probably going to live a little bit of an
59:54
easier life. Not to say everything is all
59:57
sunshine and rainbows, but having a little more Jingle in
1:00:00
your pocket certainly helps. And when guys are getting paid?
1:00:05
By throwing harder or by striking out more dudes or
1:00:09
having better spin. Why wouldn't you chase it?
1:00:13
It is what the market is defining.
1:00:16
It's so weird. To then blame baseball is like
1:00:20
trying to point the finger elsewhere.
1:00:24
Like they didn't say this is what gets dudes paid.
1:00:27
Right. They set the industry standard.
1:00:30
Hey, we're going to pay this this guy a lot of money because
1:00:33
he throws really hard and gets guys out and he strikes them
1:00:36
out. You're you're a closer.
1:00:38
We're going to pay you a lot of money to come in and close
1:00:40
games, but we only want you to throw mid 80s.
1:00:43
It's never going to happen. They want the arms that are the
1:00:46
best, that are going to produce the most output and give that
1:00:50
team a chance to win a championship.
1:00:53
And that's what all these MLB organizations are doing.
1:00:55
They're just trying to win a championship for their city and
1:00:58
for the and for the organization.
1:01:00
And the best way to do that is to get the best guys with the
1:01:03
best stuff possible within your budget.
1:01:06
And there's a risk. There's a risk to all this
1:01:09
stuff, like there's a risk to anything.
1:01:11
We just have to understand that there are risks.
1:01:15
And unfortunately the repercussions can be surgery,
1:01:18
They can be that you missed some time in development, stuff like
1:01:21
that. Now, I'm not saying that we just
1:01:24
shoot to performance and forget everything else.
1:01:26
Absolutely not, you know, especially at the amateur level.
1:01:28
But I think guys are just willing to take the risk.
1:01:32
If I'm in my free agency year and I need to have a really good
1:01:35
year, probably going to take the risk of trying to improve my
1:01:40
stuff and my velocity and stuff like that because I get that
1:01:43
next contract and it's guaranteed.
1:01:45
It's like, like you said, it's going to make my my life's
1:01:48
problems a little bit easier by having a little bit more money
1:01:50
in my pocket. Yeah, until there's some sort of
1:01:53
bonus pool that doesn't come from the owners or the teams.
1:01:57
It comes from MLB as a whole that says if you hit the 170
1:02:04
inning mark, you get $5,000,000. If you hit the 200 inning mark,
1:02:08
you get an additional $10 million.
1:02:10
Are we actually going to see any difference here?
1:02:13
In my opinion, because there's no incentive to throw more, just
1:02:16
be better. The incentive is be better.
1:02:19
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if you want to make more
1:02:22
money, better be the best in the world.
1:02:24
And that's what all these guys are striving to do.
1:02:25
Like they're looking to have that big year that gets in that
1:02:29
next contract that's as big as possible because then they know
1:02:32
that their family's taken care of and like it's life changing
1:02:35
money. And as much as we don't like to
1:02:37
talk about the money in the game, like that's what drives a
1:02:40
lot of these guys. Once you get there, it's like,
1:02:42
OK, I'm here like, but now like I really want to make some
1:02:46
money. And that and that's why guys
1:02:47
take risks with their career or they're like a little bit
1:02:50
selfish with their career just because it's a business and it's
1:02:53
a way for them to to take care of themselves and their children
1:02:56
and their families and stuff like that.
1:02:58
If you went up to all these guys who got hurt and said, hey,
1:03:01
would you trade not getting hurt for not being able to perform
1:03:06
the way that you did or have the previous success?
1:03:08
I'm sure that they would just look at you and say no, like
1:03:11
it's worth it. It's just part of part of the
1:03:13
business and part of the game. Yeah, I, I'm going to round this
1:03:17
out by saying if you asked anyone if your options were do
1:03:23
pull downs once a week for an entire winter to set your family
1:03:28
up for life or never throw a ball harder than 86.
1:03:31
I I think I'm willing to do pull downs once a week for an entire
1:03:35
winter at a chance of making $19.2 million.
1:03:41
Yeah, no doubt. Sign me up for pull downs.
1:03:43
Yeah, I'm in. And that's that's even.
1:03:45
I guess I should probably throw the disclaimer that I'm not
1:03:49
blaming pull downs for the reason that guys are blowing
1:03:51
out. This is just, this is the kind
1:03:53
of stuff that you can get from that report.
1:03:55
And that that worries me a little bit about the industry.
1:03:59
But it has me more confident than ever that these are the
1:04:02
type of conversations that need to happen.
1:04:05
This is the kind of information that needs to be spread and it's
1:04:10
the only way that we are going to get to a better place to
1:04:14
reduce the risk of these injuries going forward.
1:04:16
No doubt. I mean, these conversations at
1:04:18
least provoke some like further conversations.
1:04:22
What I read in that report is like, OK, we already knew that
1:04:25
if you try to drive a car faster and harder, your chance of, of,
1:04:31
of getting into an accident is probably going to increase.
1:04:34
Same thing with VLO. If you try to throw harder or
1:04:37
you try to, you know, increase performance or spin or anything
1:04:39
like that, like there's risk to that.
1:04:41
This notion of like, there's no risk and we can, everyone can
1:04:44
stay healthy is just kind of childish and, and foolish.
1:04:48
And it's just like, it's not the case.
1:04:50
Like this is human performance. We've been trying to push this
1:04:53
for a long time. We need to understand like what
1:04:56
levers to pull on when I think a little bit better.
1:05:00
But human performance is not going anywhere, not until
1:05:03
there's no money left in any organization anywhere.
1:05:08
Football, basketball, hockey, tennis, like people are going to
1:05:12
continue to try to find new ways to push a new performance.
1:05:16
And I think that at the end of the day, those people who are
1:05:19
going to do it, they know the risk, they know what's going
1:05:22
into it. And I think on the amateur side,
1:05:25
it's just we've, I think we've got to do a better job of
1:05:27
implementing it at the right time and making sure that our
1:05:31
guys are ready so that they don't have as much wear and tear
1:05:34
on them as they get up into those higher levels.
1:05:37
Perfect. Well, Dan, I really appreciate
1:05:39
the time today. Is there anything else that you
1:05:42
want to highlight before we get out of here?
1:05:45
Yeah, no, I mean, I appreciate you having me on.
1:05:47
This was fun and we got into some good topics and stuff like
1:05:50
that. I think people just need to keep
1:05:52
an open mind, keep exploring and really just make sure that what
1:05:55
you're doing in training is right for you and aligns with
1:05:58
your long term goals and your long term vision.
1:06:00
And what I'm trying to do with all the guys that I'm working
1:06:03
with and stuff like that is to hear them out, hear their goals
1:06:06
and meet them where they're at and kind of be the, the, the
1:06:09
designer of the road map to get there.
1:06:10
So if anybody has any questions on anything like feel free to
1:06:13
reach out. Pretty much an open book or at
1:06:16
least I try to be happy to have conversations like this
1:06:19
whenever. How can people get in touch with
1:06:21
you or follow what you're doing? Yeah, easiest way to get in
1:06:25
touch with me is to just DM me on Instagram Rehab pitching guy
1:06:29
pretty good on the response time on that with the newborn just
1:06:32
laying on my chest. I get I get some extra.
1:06:34
I'm logging some extra hours these days so hopefully to send
1:06:37
me any questions you have. That screen time is up as babies
1:06:41
on the chest. Yeah, I got my.
1:06:42
I got my notice of screen time the other day.
1:06:44
It was. It was not good.
1:06:46
I'm going to get you some blue light glasses.
1:06:48
Yeah, I'm hoping that Santa Claus brings those to me.
1:06:51
Heck, yeah. Well, again, I appreciate it
1:06:54
very much. Thank you, Dan, And to all the
1:06:56
listeners out there, thanks for laying back with us.