Latest / The Front / Is Ed Sheeran too big for the keffiyeh crowd to cancel?

Transcript

Is Ed Sheeran too big for the keffiyeh crowd to cancel? · The Front

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: From The Australian, this is the weekend edition of The Front.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: I'm Claire Harvey.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: It's been a huge week for UK pop star Ed Sheeran, who,
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: despite his best efforts to avoid controversy, has found himself
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: at the centre of a political firestorm. Conflict in the
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: Middle East, free speech, racism, themes wholly unrelated to an
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: artist who deals in mass appeal pop. took over the
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: singer's loop tour when the opening act, Macklemore, chanted Free
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: Palestine at a MetLife Stadium concert in New Jersey on
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: September 4. The Israeli-American Council started a petition to have
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: Macklemore removed from the tour, while some fans defended his
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: right to use his platform as he sees fit. Billionaire
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: Robert Kraft got involved, pop star Pink piped up, and
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: all the artists who were supposed to support Sheeran on
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: the tour quit. Joining me to unpack the noise and
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: nuance is the Australian's Chief International Correspondent, Cameron Stewart. Cam,
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: I always hit you with the hard questions, so today
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: it is, what do you know about Ed Sheeran?
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: I like Ed Sheeran. I'm a fan. So for anyone
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: that's never seen me play live before, this thing at
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: my feet is called a loop station. You press record
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: like this. When you press play, it plays back and
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: you can add layers on top of it.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: Ed Sheeran, the most inoffensive of artists, who's kind of
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: beloved by everyone from grandmas to couples on their wedding
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: days to kids. He's always tried to stay out of politics,
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: not dissimilar to the late, great Dolly Parton, who I
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: know you were a big fan of. But now Ed
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: Sheeran's found himself caught right in the middle of a
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: political drama, the hottest one of our time, What Side
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: You Fall On in the Israel-Hamas conflict. Macklemore, the rapper
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: who was supporting him on his big loop tour of
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: the United States, chanted Free Palestine at a gig.
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: I said Free Palestine!
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: Subsequently, he's been cancelled from the tour and now the
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: rest of the artists who were supporting Ed Sheeran on this.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: Tour have quit.
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: Phineas Bioga, Sheeran's house band, Danish band Lucas Graham and
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: Irish singer Aaron Rowe also announcing their departure on social media.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: You've been covering the kind of crisis of anti-Semitism around
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: the world since October 7, 2023, when Hamas attacked Israel, Cam.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: Artists have been some of the people who are most
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: affected by not just cancellation campaigns, as some Jewish artists
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: have found themselves the victims of, but also the pressure
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: for every other artist to have an opinion and to
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: have the right opinion, right?
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: Well, that's exactly right. And what we're seeing here, we
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: get almost like a conformity act, okay? So you've got
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: Michael Moore has been taken off the stage. Ed Sheeran
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: says that was the promoter's idea, not mine. But now
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: all of the support acts have gone off and refused
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: to play in support of the rapper. And so you
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: have almost like, being blinded, almost like a lemming-like following
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: of this. And the problem here is that any artist
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: who now says, I'll support Ed Sheeran, will be accused
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: by the pro-Palestinian lobby of effectively somehow condoning the deaths
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: of children in Gaza. It becomes this absurd sort of linkage.
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: And that's what we're seeing at the moment. So you
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: can see Ed Sheeran scratching his red hair, wondering where
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: to go next.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: He's one of the few artists in the world who
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: could put on a stadium show by himself.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: Like, he's pioneered this kind of model.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: Of performance where he stands on stage with his guitar
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: and a loop pedal and he entertains a crowd for
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: hours on end. These other acts who were supporting him,
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: you know, some of them are pretty obscure, to be honest.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: This is a massive opportunity that they're giving up too,
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: isn't it? I mean, do you feel like, A, they're
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: doing the right thing and, B, are they actually making
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: these choices or are they under the same kind of
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: pressure to say the right thing?
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: Probably all of the above. I mean, they said that
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: they're not going to play because they stand up in
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: support of oppressed people everywhere, you know. All of these
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: artists are just sort of talking about one side of
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: arguably the most complex geopolitical issue of our time. And
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: this was McLemore's problem too. I think this is why
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: the owner of the stadium, Robert Kraft, came out and said,
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: I'm unhappy with this. And that's because McLemore would talk
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: about alleged genocide by the IDF, the Israeli Defence Force, apartheid,
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: et cetera, et cetera, the oppression of Gazans. He never,
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: ever talks about Hamas as a terror organisation. He doesn't
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: talk about the October 7 massacre. He gives absolutely no
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: pretense of balance or trying to include all of those
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: things in a discussion about It is just a one-sided rant, frankly. And,
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: you know, that's when you have people in the audience
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: who are non-political or centrist or pro-Israel and, of course,
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: Jewish members of the audience who feel uncomfortable. And what
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: we saw, of course, Claire, was a very brave stance,
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: I think, by the pop star Pink, who is Jewish.
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: She came out and said there were mums and dads
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: in that audience and they're looking at a war video
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: and getting a one-sided view of the war. And she said,
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: As a Jewish mum, I can tell you I felt
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: uncomfortable by that and I have a right to say
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: I feel uncomfortable without being accused of them on some
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: sort of agenda.
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: Pinks doubling down. She goes on to say Hamas is
• 5:46
  Speaker 4: a terrorist organisation. Palestinians deserve a future that honours their
• 5:50
  Speaker 4: humanity and their aspirations. Protecting innocent life comes first everywhere
• 5:54
  Speaker 4: and nobody should ever celebrate the death of a child.
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: But, of course, guess who got the most criticism after that?
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: It wasn't Macklemore, it was Pink.
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: There's a massive unfollowing happening right now with Pink and
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: with Ed Sheeran, but there's a massive following for Macklemore.
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: So these are the latest numbers.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: One of the really interesting things Pink said was that
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: the next day, back at the same venue, Macklemore played
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: the song again and he said Free Palestine again, but
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: he also said, to all my Jewish brothers and sisters...
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: criticism of Israel, criticism of apartheid.
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: Being against genocide. In no way is it criticism of you.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: And Pink said, well, actually, mate, you don't get to decide. Like,
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: I'll decide.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: Whether I'm offended as a Jew by what you said.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: That was an interesting nuance, wasn't it?
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: It really comes down, I think, to the point that,
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: you know, everyone is absolutely free to advocate their own beliefs. But,
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: you know, you have paid concert goers from all walks
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: of life who are being lectured to in a one-sided
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: lecture about the most divisive geopolitical issue of our time.
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: That's where it differs, Claire, from, say, someone getting up
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: and talking about climate change or poverty or a natural
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: disaster and, you know, live aid in Africa. You know,
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: it's a very different concept to be talking about the
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: war in Gaza with all its complexities and with all
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: its horror on both sides. And that's where I think
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: the pro-Palestinian movement in the world of artists and performers
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: is on very thin ice, because people like this who
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: come out and say things like Macklemore just hurt people
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: as well. They're very divisive in what they say. That
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: is the impact of what they say. And that's why
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: I think that there are different standards that apply to
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: comments in relation to this compared to other issues. And
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: we've seen that in Australia as well, haven't we? We
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: had the pianist Jason Gillum, who lost a court case
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: against the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra for cancelling his concert because
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: of comments he said on stage in 2024 about Gaza
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: being critical of Israel. We saw also the Sydney Theatre Company, remember,
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: forced to make an apology after three of its actors
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: came on stage for the curtain call wearing Palestinian scarves.
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: And so we do have this problem. where it is
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: an incredibly divisive and sensitive issue. And I think for
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: artists to go on stage and pretend that it's not,
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: that they're just being really compassionate and kind by doing
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: that is far too simplistic. And I think we need
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: to be far more sophisticated in the way that artists
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: behave and also understanding that people react very differently to
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: such a divisive topic.
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: Both Pink and Robert Kraft, the owner of Gillette Stadium,
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: accused McLemore of actually being an anti-Semite, saying that his
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: anti-Zionist kind of rhetoric is just kind of code for
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: actually being a racist, actually wanting to incite hatred against Jews. Now,
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: he's denied that, but one of their pieces of evidence
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: against him is that a few years ago, he had
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: to apologise after putting on what seems to me like
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: a pretty provocative costume. It's a hook-nosed a black wig
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: and a black beard kind of dancing around in a suit.
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: Pink says that's an, you know, anti-Semitic trope dressing up
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: as a kind of in Jew face.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: And that's why she thinks he's an anti-Semite.
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: There's an interesting question though, Cam, about, you know, what
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: it's okay to expect when you go to a gig.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: If you showed up to Jason Gillum's piano concert, or
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: you went to the Sydney Theatre Company, or you go
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: to an Ed Sheeran concert. Yes, you could argue that,
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: you know, this is a space where I shouldn't be
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: lectured to, and it shouldn't be about politics. The other
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: way to think about it, though, I suppose, is that
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: art is supposed to provoke us, that artists, you know,
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: part of what they do is challenge our ideas and
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: make us think maybe a little bit differently. I mean,
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: is that fair enough from McLemore's point of view?
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: I don't think it's fair enough from McLemore's point of view, A,
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: because of the very divisive nature of the topic that
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: I was talking about before, but B, here's a support act, Clare.
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: I mean, people did not go to see McLemore. They
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: went to see Ed Sheeran. They went to watch, you know,
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: Bambi with the guitar. That's what they wanted. They didn't
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: want to get a lecture. They didn't want to see
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: buildings in Blarnup in Gaza, I'm sure. Artists will always,
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: have always and will always have some level of activism.
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: I just think they need to be far more careful
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: on this. This is a conflict. that has not divided
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: people in the same way since the Vietnam War. 40
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: years of reporting on international affairs, I've never covered a
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: more divisive conflict.
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: Coming up, is Ed Sheeran too big to be cancelled?
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: One of the things I've wondered as this has played
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: out this week is, is Ed Sheeran too big to cancel?
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: J.K.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: Rowling made herself very unpopular with a kind of similar
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: kind of activist group.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: And maybe even the same people a few years ago.
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: J.K.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: Rowling could not be cancelled, though, because her work is
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: so incredibly popular, because she has so much power.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: Ed Sheeran's kind of similar. I wonder, can Ed Sheeran
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: be cancelled? Can he ride this out?
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: It's a good question because, look, he's tried to stay apolitical,
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: but of course, In this sort of vortex, he's seen
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: as political by staying apolitical, isn't he? McLemore has said, oh,
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: you know, I talked to Ed. He's a friend of mine. But,
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: you know, he couldn't get past the I don't take
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: sides thing. And McLemore was clearly implying, well, that's not
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: good enough, mate. You know, it's a big issue you
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: should talk about. That was the implication of what McLemore
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: was saying. And Ed Sheeran is saying, I have my
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: own views on the conflict. I'm terribly sad about the
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: death and destruction on all sides, but I don't use
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: my professional platform to advocate for change. I use other
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: platforms to advocate for change, which I thought it was
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: a terrific way of saying he's not disinterested. But Sheeran
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: is clearly defensive here. He's worried that there will be
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: a whole group of supporters or fans of his who
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: will look at that and think, you're just happy for
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: McLemore to get cancelled. You're going to go on. You're
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: going to do the big stadium. You're going to get
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: all the money and, you know, you really don't care
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: about the plight of children in Gaza. I mean, that's
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: the sort of strange linkages that we're getting to look
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: at with this sort of debate. And I think that
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: is a danger for someone like Sheeran. But I think
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: he is too big. His record is too strong. A
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: lot of very credible people have come out and supported him.
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: And even Macklemore doesn't actually have a real go at him.
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: He says he's a friend. But I think Sheeran will
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: ride it out. But he's just been put in a
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: difficult position for nothing to do with what he has done.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: Who knows what's going to happen to the rest of
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: this tour? It's supposed to run until December. Maybe Ed
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: Sheeran will try to find some other artists who will
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: come with him. If he does, they're going to have
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: to be pretty brave to be able to stand up
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: to the social media pylon. But what we have seen
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: right now is a fairly major artist, Macklemore, being cancelled
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: from an incredibly lucrative touring opportunity. One interpretation is that
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: the tide is turning, Cam, and that instead of being
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: cancelled for being Jewish... Now you run the risk of
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: being cancelled for being anti-Semitic or being too critical of Israel.
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: Do you think maybe this is the moment where the
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: tide is turning?
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: I think the tide has been turning for a while, Claire.
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: I think the realisation of some of the more extreme
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: pro-Palestinian rhetoric around the Western world has finally been growing.
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: I mean, here in Australia, you know, the recognition of
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: the anti-Semitism has grown and grown. And of course, we
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: have the tragedy of Bondi. then we have a Royal Commission.
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: You know, no one in Australia is unaware of the
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: problem with anti-Semitism now. I think we're seeing that sort
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: of trend in Britain, in Europe and in America. Yeah,
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: and I think that things like, say, Matt Lemore going
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: on stage and giving a very one-sided account at a
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: certain high level where it's a lot of exposure looking
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: at him, I think that those days are coming to
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: an end. Look, there's still lots of artists who still,
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: talk about Palestine on stage, et cetera. I mean, it's
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: not a complete topic, but it all depends a lot
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: in the manner in which you do it. And I
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: think that Macklemore got it wrong and he hit a
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: lot of sensitivities that are only growing because of the
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: anti-Semitism we've seen around the world.
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: Well, Cam, thank you very much for joining us.
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: Pleasure.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: Cameron Stewart is The Australian's Chief International Correspondent. You can
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: read his work anytime. at theaustralian.com.au. This episode of The
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: Front was hosted by me, Claire Harvey, and co-produced with
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: Jasper League. Our team also includes Kristen Amiet, Leah Tamaglou,
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: Tiffany Dimak, and Joshua Burton.