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When Forgiveness Feels Unfair · Red Couch Theology

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Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Red Couch
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Theology podcast. This week on our episode, we're
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talking about forgiveness and that sense of justice that you
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feel that you've been harmed. And we addressed two different
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questions in this episode. The big one that we spent the
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majority of our time on is, is it even OK or right to forgive
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people if they haven't asked for forgiveness and they haven't
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repented of the harm that they've done to you?
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Is it even biblical? Does God forgive everyone?
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Sometimes it seems like he doesn't.
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And we address a question about that, and I hope it's helpful to
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you. Let's dive right in.
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Hello. Hello, we're live.
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Welcome to the right couch theology podcast this week.
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We acknowledge you first thing rather than carrying on a
0:48
conversation as if you weren't in the room, which you aren't, I
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guess listeners, but I have a guest with me today.
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This is Teresa Do. Wow.
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Wow. That's old.
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Yeah. Teresa Egland.
1:02
Sorry. Well, I've known you longer as
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Teresa DeWitt, so I wonder if you're in my phone room as your
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old name. Yeah.
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Anyway, Teresa's our comms director here at South, but she
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has been to seminary, so talk about.
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That Oh my goodness, I went one time to 1.
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For like a conference? For one conference and being on
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staff with a bunch of pastors, it was always intimidating
1:25
because it's like, oh, they know so much more than me.
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But then I went one day and everyone's like, oh, you've been
1:29
to seminary. Well, she always.
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Speaks to this yeah she would always say like oh don't listen
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to me I don't I've never been to seminary and so that she went to
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this like 1 little seminar ever since then yeah we said yeah you
1:41
have you've been to seminary. No pressure.
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Welcome to the Theology podcast. Thank you.
1:48
Yeah. And who's hosting today's
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episode I. Think that I am I, I love that
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this is a podcast where you have guests, like interviewers come
2:01
and just interview you guys over and over.
2:04
That's an interesting point I do.
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I still have your old name. Well, now we can change it.
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Yeah. Have everyone hang on while we.
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I should know better since I officiated her wedding.
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It's. Fine.
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Yeah, you were there. Yeah.
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Oh, wow. All right.
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Well, yeah, I'm hosting today, right?
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Well, I think we're Co hosting. OK, that sounds.
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Better, we actually have no interviewee because neither one
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of us preached the sermon. But I debated would we cancel
2:34
this week's episode again? But I was like, we cancelled
2:39
last week. You've got a couple questions.
2:41
Too and we had several questions.
2:43
They were starting to stack up and I was like we should just
2:46
have an episode. I will do my best to answer some
2:49
of these questions even though I didn't preach either of the
2:52
sermons that they were they were about.
2:54
And then if I'm wrong, Alex can fix it next.
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Week me with my theology degree. I'll correct you perfect.
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I like you know, it's summertime and everyone's on vacation when
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the comms director is the personal.
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Come on now, you know more stuff.
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Oh, wow. My shirt keeps coming unbuttoned
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here. I don't know if.
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Yeah, time to get a new shirt. Yeah.
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So we actually have a question from 2 sermons ago and then one
3:24
from this last last week, which I think we can address pretty
3:29
quickly. Like that could be maybe be the
3:30
main agenda for the episode. But and and then we can, if our
3:40
answers are not satisfying to everyone, then you can answer
3:43
the ask the question again or say, I don't like that answer, I
3:47
want Alex to answer it. And that's fair.
3:49
That's fine. We'll do our best.
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We'll do our best, and maybe the show can be a little bit shorter
3:53
than normal. That sounds great.
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Although if anyone knows me I'm a little long winded.
3:59
Maybe it'll be the same length. So should we just dive into
4:01
questions? Let's do it.
4:03
Should we do the 1-2 weeks ago? Which is this one you?
4:08
Want me to read this? You can either read it or like
4:11
summarize it ish. This one's relatively short
4:16
compared to the other question, so maybe I'll read this one
4:18
verbatim. Yeah, and the other one's the
4:20
other one. I can Samurai.
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The other one's very much scarier.
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All right, can I hold your laptop?
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Because my eyesight is sure I can't read from that far away.
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If you can, If it'll read so many.
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Chords. All right, now we have music
4:37
play. Unplug all my.
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Ears, I'm making things so complicated.
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Maybe I should just read it. I think you.
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Should read it, it's on your side.
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Does Alex never read the questions?
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No, I don't know what time. Yeah, it's fine.
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It's fine. It's fine.
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Everything's fine. This is just par for the course
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for our show. All right, So just by way of
5:00
context, this was in reference to the last sermon in the
5:04
Anchored series where Alex talked about being anchored to
5:08
the cross. So let me get you up to speed or
5:10
remind you, if you're anything like me, I forget every sermon I
5:15
even preached. So I don't expect all of you to
5:18
remember sermons that you listen to.
5:20
Maybe the Spirit reminds you deep in your soul or something.
5:24
But so that sermon was anchored to the cross and it was a kind
5:29
of A2 fold thing, like 11 aspect of being anchored to the cross
5:33
is like this idea of going the way of the cross, sort of a
5:36
surrender idea. And then the second one was
5:41
this, the idea that the cross is the final word on the character
5:47
of God, like Jesus, meaning a savior who comes to earth and
5:52
dies for the sake, for the sins of the world out of love, is the
5:57
best picture of the character and goodness of God that we
6:00
have. And so we anchor to that, like
6:02
when we don't understand what's going on in the world, we don't
6:04
understand what's going on in theology.
6:06
We read a passage in the Old Testament has like genocide.
6:09
And we're like, that's weird. I don't like it.
6:11
And then you can kind of anchor to the reality that wait, wait,
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wait, we know this is true. We know that Jesus is what God
6:18
is like, and it helps us navigate and linger with some of
6:23
those questions. Anyway, so there.
6:25
That's the context of the sermon that Alex gave.
6:27
And then this question came in. You have better eyesight than me
6:32
if you can read it from that. Far I can in the US.
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So this is in the context with a quote that Alex Alex quoted a
6:40
woman in a sermon. The quote, I can't remember the
6:43
name of the lady who who said it, but it was a little bit the
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the content of the quote was sort of around fear.
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Like we have nothing to fear because God is the captain of
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the ship or something along those lines.
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Tied into the anchored series. I see what Alex did there.
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Yeah. And then then it goes on to this
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in the US with this, with its increasing dysfunction,
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political dysfunctional political situation and strong
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opinions among those who care. How does a follower of Jesus
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live a Habakkuk 3? As a Habakkuk three person, I
7:18
asked this for each of each side of the political spectrum.
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After all, a supporter of President Trump believes the US
7:25
is falling apart due to its policies of of his opponents and
7:32
vice versa for those who oppose Trump.
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There's a statement slash question in there.
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So let me preface in a couple ways.
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I'm not 100% sure how the quote connects to the question other
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than maybe the fear piece in the quote.
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Like it's scary if your country seems like it's falling apart.
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And then two, I'm not sure what a Habakkuk three person is.
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I just read the chapter myself. I don't know what the without
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study going back and studying Habakkuk 3, I don't know what
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the definition of a Habakkuk three person is, so I'm not sure
8:16
if I'm well equipped to answer this question Any any thoughts?
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You do read Habakkuk 3. I glanced at it when I found out
8:23
that I would be at this podcast. Yeah, I.
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Feel I feel like since Teresa's been to seminary, we should make
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her answer this question We. Didn't look at Habakkuk that one
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day. I apologize, but I think I
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understand the heartbeat behind the question.
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And so aside from the Habakkuk thing and the quote from from
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whoever this was. Maybe we can get some follow up
8:44
questions. Yeah, like, give us some
8:47
clarity. If I'm completely confused by
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what you're trying to ask, then I apologize.
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Increasingly dysfunctional political situation.
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Yeah. And no, like, I think we often
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times get this perception that America is like falling apart,
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and in one sense it is. But every single generation
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preceding us has felt the exact same thing.
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But now we have social media. Yeah, and so like I OK, yeah,
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the political situation is not great and the rhetoric on both
9:26
sides seems like it's getting more more polarized.
9:30
But if you read like historical commentators who wrote 100 years
9:35
ago, they're saying the exact same thing.
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Our country's about to fall apart because the political
9:39
situation is so polarized. And we're like, and we go back
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and look at that and we're like, they were like so unified back
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then, comparatively speaking. So OK, I, I get it.
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And if you look at history of the world, most nations have
9:55
like a really good run or the most like significant world
9:58
powers have a good run. Think of the Roman Empire or
10:01
whatever. Do you think about the Roman
10:02
Empire a lot? I was, I was afraid you were
10:05
going to say that. I actually don't.
10:07
I'm one of the ones who doesn't, one of the guys.
10:09
We asked all the guys. Can you explain why you asked
10:11
the question? Because not everyone who listens
10:13
to our show. I'm like the one person who's on
10:14
social media because it's my job.
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Yeah. And I thought that as people who
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are studying Scripture, when a lot of the pieces are taking
10:22
place during that time, it was fascinating how some people were
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like, every day and then you were like, no, not really.
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Yeah, so like there was this social media trend where they
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someone made the claim that most men think about the Roman Empire
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like a strange. Amount of.
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Strangely high amount of time and it's tends to be true.
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Like there's like street interviews.
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How often do you think about the Roman Empire?
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03 times a day? And it's like, weird how guys
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guys tend to think about the Roman Empire for some reason.
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This was like a two years ago that this was.
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Yeah, this was the trend. We're just catching time.
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It is so old now. Yeah.
10:58
Sorry to burst your bubble. Anyway, I'm not one of the ones
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who thinks about the Roman Empire a ton other than when I'm
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studying a passage that happens to be set in that context.
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But if you look at history, like the Roman Empire eventually fell
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and it had a lot of good infrastructure and political
11:15
stability and stuff, and yet it still fell apart.
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So I guess I'm reading into this question.
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I I don't know what the Habakkuk three person is entirely so.
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I my initial thought when I read this, and I could definitely be
11:33
off, but was the idea of when it feels like the leadership or
11:40
governmental authority that we are under does not feel stable,
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how are we as Christians supposed to engage with that?
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Like how much do we, how much hope do we put into that?
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How much do we well, like, does this apply to us?
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No, like I I'm just for Jesus and none of this even matters.
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Like how do you engage with that?
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That was my initial understanding, but again, I
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could be off. Yeah, and like this chapter in
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Habakkuk 3, it talks a lot about like maybe the justice of God
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coming in and taking out a nation.
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And I'm like, that's not really a Habakkuk three person maybe I
12:19
don't know. So I if that's the direction.
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I'm Googling habukuk three person.
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Maybe this is a thing. There you go.
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Maybe. Maybe it's a well known thing
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that I'm the. Internet.
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I am, I feel very under equipped.
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The next question is even scarier, but I cannot answer
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this question because I don't understand the necessarily what
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you're hoping for me to answer. I apologize to whoever wrote
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this question in, but I will address the political spectrum
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thing. I got nothing on my end so.
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Yeah, apologize. Well, I think, I think the
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answer is we try and follow Jesus and the the way of the
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Kingdom of God rather than the way of the nation.
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And when our political powers make a decision that's in
13:10
alignment with the with the Jesus way, we cheer and we say
13:15
praise Jesus. And when our political powers
13:18
make decisions that don't align with the way of Jesus, then we
13:22
lament and we try and vote against those kinds of things.
13:25
And the answer, the reality is both political parties make
13:31
decisions that do not align with the way of Jesus, and both of
13:36
them make some decisions that do align with the way of Jesus.
13:40
And on any given subject matter that kind of flip flops back and
13:44
forth, which is why it's so hard to vote in this political
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situation is that there are so many times where you're just
13:50
making these like, oh, lesser of two evil decisions on any given
13:56
issue. And then you're only like, you
13:59
only feel like your meaningful vote has to be polarized into
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these two very increasingly polarized spaces.
14:10
Yeah, I don't know. So if you want to rephrase your
14:12
question, send it in. Help us know what you what
14:14
specifically in Habakkuk 3, because there's a lot going on.
14:18
And I was like, is that Habakkuk three person?
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Is this a habit? So if you want to rephrase your
14:22
question, send it in, then. Great.
14:27
Getting back to the quote that I think Alex referenced is
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ultimately the Kingdom of God is going to win.
14:35
And so our political reality is so safe.
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If America tumbles and falls, the Kingdom of God will not.
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If the next major political power in the world rises up and
14:52
it scares us like a name, a nation that you think is the
14:56
scariest potential future power in the world.
14:59
And if they rise to power, the Kingdom of God is safe and
15:03
secure. And God is right on target when
15:05
it comes to his plan to redeem creation.
15:09
And so and not even death itself can threaten that.
15:14
So that's I think the heartbeat of that quote where we don't
15:18
have to be afraid because God is on his throne.
15:22
He knows what he's doing that the way of Jesus thrived under
15:27
the a pretty toxic Roman Empire that then became Christian.
15:34
Christianity has thrived inside of closed access countries where
15:38
it's illegal to be Christian. It's thrived in so many
15:41
different environments. And I'm I don't think like Jesus
15:46
empathizes with our fear and I don't think he's afraid
15:49
personally. So, well, and you think of how
15:51
his disciples were just so like, you're going to take down this
15:55
empire, like let's let's go. Like we're going to buck up and
15:59
like your Kingdom come. So we're going to destroy this,
16:02
you know, and that wasn't what happened.
16:06
And that ticked a lot of people. Off yeah, I mean, one of the
16:08
reasons everyone didn't like Jesus was that he didn't show up
16:11
as this political leader that they wanted so.
16:14
And I think there's the other side of the coin of what you're
16:16
saying that like we can rest in knowing that his Kingdom will
16:19
win. The they're the part that's
16:23
coming to mind is like this world is not there was going to
16:28
be a new heaven and new earth. Like what happens in this world
16:32
matters. And that's why I believe like we
16:34
as Christians, if we are to love God and love others, like we are
16:37
called to vote, We are called to be involved and to think
16:42
critically and we want to side with Jesus rather than a
16:46
political party. So I, I get nervous when it
16:49
comes to thinking of like, well, I'm on this side, this party, so
16:52
I'm just going to Vote Blue. I'm going.
16:54
To vote the party line. Yeah, like I, I just, I feel
16:58
that like God has asked us to use wisdom and to love others
17:03
and think through. I mean, so many of these things
17:06
are convoluted and affect people in so many different ways.
17:09
But. And if it's an outcome that you
17:13
aren't satisfied with and you're angry and you're asking God why
17:18
we are called to pray for people that are in power, that we are
17:21
uncalled to pray for people to live in the way of Jesus.
17:25
And when it feels like man, things are falling apart and I'm
17:31
afraid and like, yes, like God's Kingdom is going to come, but I
17:35
just have anxiety over this. I worry about my fellow
17:37
neighbor. We're called to pray.
17:39
And if God gives us this sense that he wants us to do something
17:44
like lean into that. And if not, like, we just have
17:48
to follow his leading. Yeah, absolutely.
17:51
I feel like the last few election cycles that I voted in,
17:56
I voted with such sorrow. I guess I felt like there's no
18:02
great options because I just had so much dissonance on both,
18:07
regardless of which side I was voting on.
18:11
So, yeah, I get, I get the emotional fear.
18:15
But yeah, I tried to lean in. I, I prayed a bunch.
18:19
And then ultimately I just have to say, all right, Jesus, you
18:22
know, you know, and I will vote and I will trust your heart,
18:27
your way, your spirit to do what you'd need to do as time
18:31
progresses. So, yeah, hopefully that at
18:33
least sort of relates to the question.
18:37
Should we move on to the the more daunting question, at least
18:40
daunting for me. Yeah.
18:41
If. If that wasn't a daunting
18:42
question, yeah. Yeah.
18:44
All right. So this one's like over a page
18:46
long, which I'm not going to read the whole question, but I
18:48
think it's really, really well thought out.
18:51
So I really appreciate whoever it is that sent this question
18:54
in. And yes, technically I could go
18:56
look it up and find your e-mail and cross whatever.
18:58
I don't do that ever. So I don't even know who sent
19:00
this in. So you can send anonymous
19:02
questions. That's right.
19:04
That's what we're telling them. Pretty much he's not.
19:06
Going to look. It up.
19:09
Yeah, I think it's a very well balanced question.
19:14
And it and the reason it's so long is because it it was like
19:17
factor this in and this in and this and so evidently this
19:21
question. Whoever wrote this in read a
19:23
book entitled. It's a book written by a
19:30
professor of systematic theology at Cornerstone Theological
19:34
Seminary and a pastor of a Baptist Church in that area.
19:41
The book is called Where is the book title Unpacking Forgiveness
19:52
and the author is Chris Brands bronze and.
19:56
This is going off of the 1st. Yes, so now we're in the anger
20:01
and forgiveness series. So by way of context, you this
20:05
first week was Alex talked about.
20:09
Psalm 137 and this like imprecatory prayer or these
20:13
psalms of vengeance where the psalmist like basically begs God
20:18
to take out their enemies. And sort of Alex's main point
20:24
was the first step of forgiveness is to give over the
20:28
scepter of vengeance and justice to God rather than taking it on
20:32
ourselves. So this book evidently makes the
20:37
thesis that it you should not forgive unless the person that
20:43
you're forgiving is repentant. Interesting.
20:48
And the and makes a biblical case for it addresses full
20:52
confession. I did not have time to read that
20:54
book. I did read several reviews and
20:59
some Cliff notes of the book in preparation for this.
21:02
I did not. And so I did.
21:04
I did do my best, but with limited time.
21:06
I didn't have time to pick up the book and read it and treat
21:09
it it fairly. So my treatment of this is
21:13
probably unfair because they probably address some of the
21:16
comments that I make and even the question itself addresses
21:20
some of my knee jerk reactions to it.
21:22
So the the big I, the big 30,000 foot level is that if we forgive
21:29
someone who is UN unrepentant, are we propagating or
21:33
encouraging immorality? Like, are we saying, you know
21:37
what, It's OK to do something that evil?
21:41
Just. Yeah.
21:42
And and then they, they go one step further and make the case
21:48
that God doesn't forgive unrepentant people.
21:51
The, the gospel is that if you confess with your mouth and
21:55
believe, you know, and you basically turn away from your
21:58
evil towards the forgiveness of Jesus, then you receive
22:03
effective forgiveness and you are saved.
22:06
And that God doesn't just forgive everyone.
22:09
He doesn't forgive someone who doesn't do those things, confess
22:13
with their mouth, recognize their need for salvation, all of
22:17
that. And so why would God expect us
22:20
to forgive people if he doesn't forgive them?
22:24
The final question. So there's me overviewing the
22:27
whole long form question and then the very bottom of this
22:31
question. They said this.
22:32
My question is this. When God won't forgive us unless
22:35
we repent, why should we forgive those who won't admit or
22:39
recognize wrongdoing? Asking for a friend.
22:42
I appreciate that. So there you go.
22:44
Answer it, Teresa. Yeah, I think you had a a pretty
22:49
good intuitive answer yesterday when we were chatting, so you
22:51
could start there. I can even remember what I
22:53
shared. Hearing the question again, the
22:57
first thing that comes to mind is the Lords prayer for me,
23:00
where we ask God for forgiveness as we forgive others.
23:05
So I'm obviously I'm taking this with like, take this with a
23:09
grain of salt, people. Like this is AI.
23:11
Yeah, I don't feel equipped to answer this without having sat
23:14
through the book or more than one day of seminary, but.
23:17
Here we are. Here we are.
23:19
You're like, how did I get myself into this situation?
23:21
And then he turns the questions on me, Alex.
23:23
Come back. Yeah, I just needed a second to
23:26
breathe after talking for so long.
23:28
So you could ramble to yourself for a moment while I take a deep
23:32
breath, and then I Yeah. Yeah, my thought is if we are
23:37
forgiving, we are forgiving others in light of being
23:40
forgiven by God. Like it doesn't even talk about
23:44
like it doesn't say forgive us our debts as we forgive our
23:48
debtors after our debtors have asked for forgiveness.
23:52
That's not it. That's in the like, I haven't
23:54
seen that version of it. So that's my again knee jerk
23:59
reaction. Yeah, and actually yesterday, if
24:02
I do, you want me to remind, want me to remind you one of the
24:05
things you said yesterday? Thank.
24:08
You. You said Jesus on the cross.
24:12
Oh yeah, a little bit of a spoiler alert because this is my
24:14
passage for this coming Sunday, says Father.
24:17
Forgive them, for they know not what they do.
24:19
They weren't asking for forgiveness.
24:21
Yeah. So that's you said that, that's
24:22
pretty, that's pretty smart. You should say it should have
24:25
said that today. Thank you for remembering.
24:28
Yeah, so I'll, I'll do my best to address it a little bit here
24:34
and then I might encourage you to come on Sunday to see if I
24:37
address it more fully in the Sunday sermon.
24:40
And I actually think that maybe we'll tie it up with a little
24:44
bit neater bow. No pressure, Alex, if you're
24:46
listening, but I'm making promises for you to achieve in
24:51
the the final sermon in this three-week series is about
24:55
reconciliation. And I think that that's maybe
24:59
where I would suggest I'm not a professor at a, as at a of
25:05
theology at a seminary so far be it for me to disagree with the
25:10
professor of theology. But I'm going to, I think that
25:15
the, that this book is written with the idea that biblical
25:21
forgiveness is equivalent or equal to reconciliation.
25:28
And I don't think that biblically speaking, that can be
25:31
true because Jesus offers and recommends that we offer
25:36
forgiveness to unrepentant people in multiple cases
25:41
throughout the New Testament. And so there's got to be a
25:44
difference between sort of, I'm even venturing into some
25:50
theological murky waters for some folks, sort of legal or
25:57
judicial forgiveness, which then converts to salvation and a
26:05
posture of empathy and longing and goodness towards another
26:13
person, which is a forgiveness of relational sort of
26:18
proportions. It, it's less effectual in the
26:21
sense that a forgive, forgiving someone who's unrepentant
26:25
doesn't turn into reconciliation a lot of the time.
26:30
But and, and that's what it would mean for salvation, like
26:34
forgiveness that's effective to that level means reconciliation
26:39
with the God of the universe and restored relationship.
26:42
That's, that's a subject about reconciliation that forgiveness
26:46
is a prerequisite for. But reconciliation is very
26:52
different than forgiveness in the Bible.
26:54
And I think that this book is written in such a way, from what
26:58
I can tell, that they're trying to combine the, the biblical
27:02
idea of reconciliation and forgiveness into one large sum.
27:08
So with that said, this is what allows Jesus to, on the cross,
27:13
say Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.
27:17
No one's repenting. The Romans think that they're
27:21
just killing another, you know, enemy of the state.
27:26
They don't have a clue the, the gravity of what they're doing in
27:30
that moment. The, the religious leaders of,
27:33
of Israel that are asking for this kill, killing of Jesus.
27:37
They think they're defending God's they're they're defending
27:40
God's reputation and and good, healthy theology like these are
27:44
good theologians trying to protect their people, their
27:49
flock from bad theology. That's what they think they're
27:52
doing. And meanwhile they're murdering
27:54
the creator of the universe. They have no clue the gravity of
27:58
what they're doing. And Jesus sees right through it.
28:00
And he says, you know what, Father, I long for forgiveness.
28:04
And in his own death, he's paving a way for forgiveness and
28:09
reconciliation to be possible. So that's my short answer to
28:16
this question. I think that forgiveness that
28:21
that biblical for forgiveness, not only does it not lessen the
28:29
moral evils of the world, I think it actually increases the
28:33
moral like it acknowledges the gravity of the moral evils in
28:36
the world. Because in order for you to
28:39
actually truly forgive the way that I think the Bible talks
28:43
about, you have to the the one who's been harmed has to say,
28:50
you know, this was absolutely wrong.
28:54
And yet I choose to relinquish control to God for justice and I
29:03
choose to absorb the pain, or in Jesus case on the cross, to
29:06
absorb the death and evil of the world upon himself.
29:10
That's not saying that what they did is right, not at all.
29:14
Worst thing in a human history. And yet because he had this
29:18
posture, he creates a he paves a way toward where for
29:22
reconciliation is possible. So if this question was phrased
29:28
differently, here's what I mean. If this question was actually,
29:33
is it OK to reconcile with an unrepentant person?
29:38
Yeah, then I'm tracking with you.
29:41
I think that the book would be actual, actually correct, that
29:45
reconciling with someone who's unrepentant and who has no
29:49
recognition of their wrong. I don't think it's not only it
29:52
would not be helpful, it's not helpful to the person who's in
29:57
sin or who's committed the the problem.
30:00
It's also not helpful to the person who's been harmed and
30:03
potentially dangerous. So yeah, there's there's what my
30:10
initial thoughts are. It's interesting thinking about
30:14
how Christ calls us to forgive 70 * 7 and but separating that
30:22
from reconciliation. That can be part of it, but it
30:25
isn't always. Like.
30:30
Boundaries are and wholeness, they're an important thing and
30:34
it's I think it's difficult too when we make these blanket
30:39
statements, I think that the church has done in history where
30:42
people might have misinterpreted and I I don't even know how to
30:48
quite explain it, but yeah, it. There's reconciliation is a
30:56
thing to to approach with fear interpretation.
31:01
And I think it should be yeah, because yeah.
31:03
So I just want. To make sure that we mention
31:07
that as well. Yeah.
31:08
So all right, now in fairness, who to whoever wrote this
31:11
question, I think they actually in their question, extended
31:15
question start to even push back on what I've said so far.
31:19
So let me read this other section of it.
31:23
Those arguing forgiveness requires repentance aren't
31:27
saying that the offenders in impenitence permits us to hold a
31:33
grudge. They insist we must do the
31:36
difficult internal work that prepares our hearts to forgive.
31:40
In other words, you need to the book.
31:43
Whoever wrote this book, argues that we should be ready to
31:48
forgive, but don't actually offer forgiveness until there's
31:52
repentance. And for me, I feel like it's a
31:56
semantics of language around again, I think whoever wrote
32:01
this book is conflating reconciliation with forgiveness.
32:06
Now they also address this. Let me read another section of
32:10
this question very well thought out question.
32:12
By the way. While there can be therapeutic
32:15
benefits to forgiveness for giving for the sake of the
32:20
benefits isn't genuine. It's yet another defensive move
32:26
dressed in its Sunday best, aimed at shoving the shoving the
32:32
offender out of the way. But true forgiveness isn't
32:36
selfish. It aims at reconciliation.
32:40
So this again, this is what makes me think, without having
32:43
read this book, that this author really wants to tie.
32:48
True forgiveness will terminate in reconciliation.
32:52
And I just don't think, I think that there's multiple examples
32:55
in the Bible, which maybe I can give a couple other that I mean,
32:58
the best one that we have already talked about is Jesus on
33:01
the cross where forgiveness is extended without reconciliation
33:08
and without salvation even potentially for those offending
33:11
parties. So I get it.
33:15
And I think there's some semantics of language.
33:18
I wish I had time to do a word study on the on the idea of
33:21
forgiveness throughout the Bible.
33:23
Give our listeners a little bit more robust example.
33:27
But interestingly, let me just give us a a zoom out of this
33:31
whole series because I was listening to Alex on Sunday
33:35
preaching the message. And he and I've talked about
33:36
this series for a little bit. But as he's preaching and I was
33:40
preparing to preach the second one of the series and knowing
33:43
what the third one is, I was like, oh, wow, this is actually
33:45
beautifully crafted. It's a genius crafting.
33:48
Don't tell Alex I call him a genius.
33:50
He might get his head. Brilliant, brilliant.
33:54
Laying out of this. The first stage of forgiveness
33:58
is actually deciding not to kill or attack your perpetrator.
34:04
Like, OK, maybe that's all you ever get to.
34:08
And then the second phase is this like, you know what?
34:12
I can understand that they're hurting me came from a place of
34:16
brokenness on their own part. And so because I understand that
34:21
it's not truly yeah, I can understand that they're they're
34:28
the suffering they get a cause to me also comes from
34:32
brokenness. I can now stomach actually
34:34
asking God to forgive them. And then the third week that in
34:38
two weeks Alex is going to talk about what does it take to truly
34:41
reconcile with someone so beautiful?
34:46
But I wanted you to notice something.
34:49
The way Alex has has set up the series.
34:53
The 1st 2IN sermons in the series is an act that you can do
34:57
without the offending party even having a clue about it.
35:01
So in the in the context of this book, that would be the
35:05
therapeutic forgiveness. I don't want to carry the
35:08
baggage around anymore of like, holding a grudge.
35:12
It's not helping me at all. So I'm going to forgive them.
35:16
Yeah. And I think that that's actually
35:20
a huge percentage of what the Bible talks about when it comes
35:23
to forgiveness. And this the way this author
35:26
almost tries to downplay that as pathetic or in incomplete
35:31
forgiveness. I disagree.
35:33
I think that Alex's illustrations on Sunday about
35:41
the pain of holding a grudge, the turmoil that holding
35:46
unforgiveness does that old quote, you know, holding a
35:52
grudge is or being unforgiving is like drinking PO poison and
35:58
expecting the other person to die.
36:00
Like that's unforgiveness. It's unforgiveness is so toxic
36:04
for our systems that relinquishing justice to God and
36:11
then eventually forgiving them can all be done without the
36:14
offending party having a clue what's going on.
36:18
Reconciliation on the other hand, that requires A2 party
36:24
sort of reciprocal. We're doing some work in on
36:28
what's going on because there have to be some boundaries
36:31
around that. There has to be some repentance
36:34
around that and on and on and on.
36:37
So. Can I just say that I love the
36:39
fact that the series is broken out into individual pieces and
36:43
it's not just forgiveness across the whole thing.
36:46
Like I think so often we're told to forgive and in our minds,
36:50
it's like, oh, like, I'm really upset with this person.
36:53
They wronged me, but I know I have to forgive.
36:55
So forgive done. Like move on to the next thing.
36:59
And we don't always give ourselves space to be, to allow
37:04
ourselves to be angry about it and to talk to God about that.
37:08
It's like we almost, we have to move so quickly into forgiveness
37:12
that we don't even let our souls process what is going on because
37:16
we just feel like we have to obey God and this is what we're
37:19
called to do. I'm gonna do that.
37:21
And it's like, I feel like when we go into it so quickly and
37:25
maybe like haphazardly, it can still sit with us, even if in
37:29
our minds we're like, no, I dealt with that already.
37:31
And like those things can build up.
37:33
To the. Fact that that Alex is teaching
37:36
us that we are allowed to sit with this and to talk to God
37:39
about it and eventually relinquish to Him, but we get to
37:43
be honest with ourselves and that is such a beautiful
37:47
opportunity. Yeah.
37:49
Yeah, it just, it makes it that much more meaningful when we get
37:52
to sit in it. And I I hate sitting in emotions
37:56
that are uncomfortable. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
37:58
I'm saying this is someone that I wish it could just be like a
38:00
three-step process and then you're done.
38:02
But it I mean, we're going through three steps as a series.
38:06
So maybe it is a three-step process, but it's something that
38:09
we're called to sit in, to be honest with God and I.
38:13
I, I love sort of if you're, if you want a lot of the, the
38:19
concepts and ideas that Alex preached about this last Sunday
38:24
come from an author named and a Old Testament theologian named
38:28
Walter Brueggemann. I would highly encourage you, if
38:31
you want to understand imprecatory prayers and the
38:35
power of them a little bit more, just Google Walter Brueggemann
38:39
Psalms of Vengeance, and a YouTube video will pop up of
38:42
this funny Southern little old man holding his watch talking
38:46
about psalms of. And he uses an illustration in
38:49
there that Alex also used Sunday.
38:51
Alex quoted him a couple times on Sunday, but then Alex.
38:56
Yeah. And then exactly.
38:59
And then Alex also used in a similar illustration that Walter
39:03
Brigham it uses. But one of the reasons I love
39:06
that first week is that it's it's there's so much sort of
39:11
this comical bit of it, but it's also very real that Step 1 of
39:16
forgiveness is like, I think Alex described it on Sunday as
39:21
like your, your first goal is to make sure that other humans are
39:26
still breathing when you leave them.
39:28
Like Step 1 of forgiveness is don't kill the enemy, right?
39:33
And that's like the lowest hanging fruit humanly possible
39:37
is to say, all right, so maybe the offense you're not inclined
39:41
to have murderous feelings towards someone.
39:44
Maybe for some of you are you've been harmed that deeply that
39:47
you, you literally just the thing you need to pray is God, I
39:51
would like you to kill them, please.
39:53
I would like them to suffer a horrible, miserable death.
39:57
That's what that's in the Bible. Psalm 137 and several other
40:01
Psalms in the Bible have these like terrifying prayers.
40:05
Like if you're scared to be honest with God, like that's how
40:07
far they've. Taken.
40:09
And so then the lowest hanging fruit is to say, you know what?
40:15
Instead of me trying to plot the murder of my enemy, I'm going to
40:20
ask God to murder my enemy. That's a low hanging fruit.
40:24
God, take him out. I would like you to kill them
40:28
and make them suffer and with the acknowledgement that God
40:33
knows the variables better than you and that once you give him
40:37
the scepter of justice, it stays in his hands.
40:41
So it's a, it's an act of surrender.
40:43
So the first step of forgiveness is to say, you know what, God, I
40:47
give you the right. I'm going to give you a whole
40:51
list of recommendations that I want you to do to them, but
40:54
you'd know better than me. So if you choose not to take my
40:58
recommendations, I trust that to your hands as well.
41:02
I loved Alex's illustration of like, his girls coming to him
41:05
with their qualms and like, you need to do XYZ because she did
41:09
this and that wasn't fair. And it's like, oh, look, I'm I'm
41:12
going to handle it. Like thank you for sharing.
41:14
I appreciate your recommendations, but yeah,
41:17
that's why it's such a powerful illustration.
41:20
Is that OK? We get that.
41:22
That's what we're doing to God when we ask this.
41:25
But we also recognize, because the illustration that Alex is
41:29
the father in that scenario has perspective about both of his
41:33
daughters that goes beyond the individual offense, has the back
41:39
story of both of them, and the perspective to then make a much
41:43
more wise decision about how to enact justice in the situation.
41:49
And there there likely will be consequences.
41:52
It probably will not match what the offended child recommends,
41:58
but that's kind of how it works. And I think that that's how God
42:00
Forgives us. I think about David.
42:06
I, I think that so we, we oftentimes hear David man after
42:11
our God's own heart and then he goes like he has like a bad
42:14
stint, right? I think you make a biblical case
42:18
that David had a pretty bad habitual bad habit of abuse of
42:24
power and as as a womanizer. And you can make a case, which
42:30
we could do on some other episode, that this wasn't just
42:32
adultery, this was rape. And so he's a adulterous rapist
42:38
murderer and he asks for forgiveness and God Forgives
42:43
him. And yet the rest of his family
42:49
outcome is horrific. His kids grow up to not respect
42:54
him and try and kill him and take him off the throne.
42:57
So the consequences of sin happen even though forgiveness
43:01
has been extended. That's a great point.
43:04
And so again, yet another example of how God can forgive
43:09
and yet the ramifications of sin still happen.
43:13
Forgiveness isn't just like no big deal.
43:16
Never again will anything bad happen to the offending party
43:19
because I forgave them. No, no, no, no.
43:22
Forgiveness is about. It doesn't.
43:25
Take away consequences. Exactly.
43:26
So I think there's just so many examples of it.
43:29
Anyway, any final thoughts? You're reminding me of a
43:33
roommate I had. And I was going through this,
43:36
like, tricky relationship and I was very frustrated and angry.
43:40
And she just saw me like ruminating on it over and over.
43:44
And I wasn't solving anything. Like, I, you know, it wasn't
43:47
doing any good. I was being honest with myself,
43:50
which I think was healthy. But she just thought it was
43:52
like, I don't want you to stay in this place.
43:54
Like this isn't what God has for you.
43:56
And she, I remember she told me that she was like, God sees
44:01
this. God will bring justice.
44:03
Like, you can give this to him. Like it's not saying that what
44:08
happened was OK. It's, it's almost like I, I know
44:12
I was wronged and I need to like hang on to this out of like self
44:16
respect and like I know that this I just, you feel this need
44:21
to do something. It was like it's not in your
44:23
court. Like you need to give that to
44:26
like the one who knows you and loves you and wants what's best
44:29
for you and let him handle it. Totally.
44:32
Yeah, so that stuck with. Me.
44:34
Yeah. So there's our best attempt,
44:37
Alex, if you, you will ask him maybe a brief abbreviated
44:42
version of this question when he's next on the show, if I
44:45
remember to. And also this coming Sunday, I'm
44:50
going to be spending a lot of time delving into some of the
44:54
nuances of this same issue. So if you want to listen to that
44:59
one, maybe it also starts to approach this question.
45:03
There's, there's me doing my best attempt to disagree with a
45:08
theology professor or seminary. I'm scared.
45:13
Hopefully I'm not steering anyone astray, but it's not the
45:19
first time I've disagreed with a theologian.
45:21
It's OK to disagree with theologian.
45:23
Yeah, they aren't. They didn't write the Bible.
45:26
It proves that. You're thinking for yourself and
45:28
that's. Good.
45:29
Maybe. Hopefully, yeah.
45:32
So take my words with a grain of salt.
45:33
Just know that there's a well thought out theologian who's
45:36
probably addressed some of these things, and you can find that
45:40
person's book called Unpacking Forgiveness.
45:46
If you would like to read that book and tell me all the reasons
45:49
I'm wrong, have at it. Thanks for tuning everyone.
45:54
Thanks for joining me on the show, being a conversation
45:56
partner, and we will see you next week.
46:01
I think Alex is back. I.
46:03
Think. So I think so.
46:05
Never know. We'll talk some more about
46:06
forgiveness. Bye everyone, bye.
46:09
Everyone. If I can find the stop button.