Latest / System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation / Guest: Dr. Roger Solomon (EMDR Institute)

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Guest: Dr. Roger Solomon (EMDR Institute) · System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Over:
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to longtime listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
• 1:07
  Several months ago, we received a question which we read in an episode about EMDR. We contacted the EMDR Institute, which was organized by Francine Shapiro. Between that time and the scheduled interview Francine Shapiro passed away. We offer our condolences to her family and friends and those at the institute who knew her well and cared so much for her work we are grateful for doctor roger solomon stepping in to complete the interview as scheduled that was very kind of him during a difficult time for them personally and professionally For those not interested or even triggered by EMDR, this is not an episode to listen to. Feel free to skip this episode.
• 1:58
  Additionally, Doctor. Roger Solomon works from the three phase model with stabilization and memory work and rehabilitation, just so that you know that going into the episode. Further, he does use some language that can be triggering for some people. When he speaks of integration, he's not talking about personalities or alters or making anyone go away. He's talking about the memories themselves and the different components of the memories being integrated back together.
• 2:31
  For example, sensory input, the actual memory of what happened, the things you heard or saw or felt, and different emotions as well. All of these different pieces of memory are stored in different parts of the brain when trauma happens. So when he's talking about and uses the word integration, he's talking about the integration of those aspects of the memory back into one experience rather than being stored in different parts of the brain. He also uses the word maladaptive. He's not talking about the person being maladaptive, but the process of storing memories in separate parts of the brain being maladaptive because it's inefficient in trying to recall or how it intrudes when it's unwanted.
• 3:16
  That's the part that's maladaptive. So when he says therapy helps us become more adaptive, he's not saying that you failed before you had therapy or without therapy. He's saying that with therapy, you can have a more adaptive and efficient process of memory recall and functioning in the present because you have access to all those different parts of your brain. We very much appreciate Doctor. Solomon's time with us and his participation with an interview.
• 3:50
  Doctor. Roger Solomon is a psychologist and psychotherapist specializing in the areas of trauma and grief. He is on the senior faculty of the EMDR, Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing Institute, and provides basic and advanced EMDR training internationally. He currently consults with US Senate, NASA, and several law enforcement agencies. Doctor.
• 4:17
  Solomon has provided clinical services and training to the FBI, Secret Service, US State Department, Diplomatic Security, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, US Department of Justice, US Attorneys, and numerous state and local law enforcement organizations. Internationally, he consults with the state police in Italy. Moreover, Doctor. Solomon has planned critical incident programs, provided training for peer support teams, and has provided direct services following such tragedies as Hurricane Katrina, September eleventh terrorist attacks, the loss of the shuttle Columbia, and the Oklahoma City bombing. Doctor.
• 5:00
  Solomon has expertise in complex trauma and collaborates with Doctor. Vanderhardt and others on the utilization of EMDR as informed by the structural dissociation of personality. He has authored 42 books and book chapters pertaining to grief, complex trauma and dissociation, and law enforcement. Welcome, Doctor. Solomon.
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: Hello. Now this is for the iPod presentation on EMDR. Is that is that right?
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: Podcast? Yeah. Alright. Little bit of Roger Solomon, and I'm the psychologist. And, I'm on the senior faculty of the EMDR Institute.
• 5:48
  So I don't know if you or the listeners know that, just three weeks ago, you know, in a couple days, Francine Shapiro, passed away, which is, a very significant loss to me personally and and to the field of psychology and the world.
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: Yes. I'm so sorry.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: Yes. So it it is really heartfelt for for me right now to be doing this podcast, and I really wanna say hello to the listeners.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: Powerful thing. Her work was, so significant and contributed so much that was unique at the time, and it is it is a hard loss for sure. Mhmm. I met her at an evolution of psychotherapy conference years and years Yes.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: That was certainly one of her favorites. Alright. So I'm I'm glad that you were really able to to hear her.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: So I was gonna say that, I learned EMDR in 1990 and already been in practice for eleven years as a psychologist. I'm a clinical psychologist. And in 1993, Francine Schapiro need more trainers. And with 12 other people, I I, became a trainer and have been with, the EMDR Institute ever since.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: Tell me more about the institute itself. What is it doing?
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: Well, the, institute is Francine Shapiro's organization. So it was the first EMDR, you know, training organization with Francine Shapiro as the director. And she began doing training and and as the institute of and other people also started providing training. And now the the institute has many international trainers, not only in The United States, but really in every continent, except in Antarctica.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: Oh, wow. So it's really a worldwide thing now. It is spread everywhere.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: Yes. It is. And I do wanna say that EMDR has gone beyond EMDR and the EMDR Institute. There are international associations. In The United States, there's the EMDR International Associations, well, which is a nonprofit independent organization that sets professional standards.
• 8:20
  So there are also EMDR trainers who are not part of the EMDR Institute, but have, you know, met professional standards to be able to provide EMDR training.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: So there are people because I have listeners all over the world. We, are the podcast airs in about 53 countries so far. And so there are people, not just in America, but anywhere in the world who know about EMDR, to do it, or trained to do it appropriately.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: Yes. That's correct.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's good news.
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: Indeed.
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: Okay. So just to back up a little bit, for an EMDR perspective, how do you talk about trauma?
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: Okay. So when a disturbing event occurs, usually we can think about it, talk about it, dream about it, and then it becomes integrated. Now that is we glean the important survival information and retain the memory with appropriate emotions, and it's something that goes back you know, it becomes part of the past and informs our future. But if there's an experience that is too much, then this, this experience, this memory can become maladaptively stored in the brain. It gets stored in state specific excitatory form, unable to process.
• 9:54
  It's something that's just too much to integrate. So using that, definition of trauma, certainly your tsunamis and your earthquakes and robberies and auto accidents and other situations that meet criteria, for for post traumatic stress disorder are are indeed traumas. But given the definition that we're talking about experiences that are too much to integrate, it's also important to consider the seemingly small but very impactful experiences. For example, for a child, mother's angry look can be something that's too much and that experience becomes maladaptively stored. Or for a child that needs help and is crying and the father turns his back, this is another seemingly small but quite impactful experience that can become maladaptively stored.
• 11:00
  So in terms of the adaptive information processing model, which is the model that guides EMDR therapy, a trauma is an experience, a memory that is maladaptively stored in the brain, unable to process.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: So when you're talking about maladaptive and not being able to integrate, you're talking about the different aspects of the memory experience itself with the memory and the emotions and all of those aspects being pulled together into one processed memory that's in the past.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: That's correct. So initially, the memory, a traumatic memory is stored in let's call it trauma time. It's the experience is not over. It continues to be triggered and reenacted. And what is maladaptively stored are the images, the beliefs.
• 12:03
  For example, I'm gonna die or I'm not good enough or I'm powerless. The emotions, the sensations, the perceptions that were there at the time. All of this becomes maladaptively stored, unable to process. And then when there's some kind of a present trigger, that memory, that maladaptively stored information comes comes up. And now the person is starting to act in the present on the basis of the experience on the past.
• 12:37
  So up may come the fear, the I'm I'm not safe. Yeah. The and the perception of danger and the sensations that stem back to the previous trauma, whether it be as an adult or or childhood.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: So some of the thoughts and feelings and sensory experiences and even patterns of interactions that we have in the present are really from memory time.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: That's correct. The past is present.
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: Okay. So how would you talk about dissociation? How would you explain what that is?
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: Alright. Now dissociation, you know, is is when we, let's let's, you know, tick up the trauma a notch. Now when the experience, especially in childhood, the experiences are too much. And, you know, it happens early and often. There's the memories that get maladaptively stored.
• 13:45
  And with repeated trauma, that memory network gets larger and can develop its own first person perspective. So what happens with dissociation is there's a division in the personality. And you certainly have the way one part of the personality engaging in everyday living. But now there's a part of the personality that's holding this trauma, that's living in trauma time. So we can look at dissociation as a split or division in the personality.
• 14:21
  One part engaging in everyday living, and now there's a memory network with the maladaptively stored information with its own individual sense of self. So I can, also explain it another way, and that is everything within us is geared towards survival. So we have, let's say, systems for everyday living. That's gonna be self care, socialization, and play, attachment, exploration or which which is work. And survival of the species involves reproduction.
• 15:13
  We have children, and then there's caregiving when the children come. Caregiving action system. And we also have, action systems for a psychological defense when there's a threat, particularly interpersonal threat. And that's fight, flight, freeze, collapse, which is submission, total, total submission. There's also the the attachment cry, hypervigilance.
• 15:47
  So these are action systems that we have for psychological defense. And usually these two different categories of action systems are working together. But when a significant trauma occurs, that's too much. Again, that memory gets maladaptively stored. Something that's too much can interfere with our ability to function in everyday life.
• 16:13
  So there there's that split in the personality, that that experience, the memory can become dissociated, held by another part of the personality. So that enables the the person to go on to engage in everyday living. So again, one part of the personality engaging in everyday living, and there could be other parts of the personality holding the trauma. And again, for the dissociative disorder to occur, it's early and severe abuse. So the memory network develops its own sense of self.
• 16:55
  So it's a memory living in trauma time with its own sense of self. And, of course, we can, you know, talk about a continuum of the severity of dissociation or or separation in the personality. Does that make sense?
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So you're talking about from the continuum, you mean from sort of the normal end where everyone does it in different ways to some degree like highway hypnosis to a more extreme version because of trauma?
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: Yes. You just you just mentioned actually very normal highway hypnosis or being overly absorbed in something. And, we can also we can look at it also this way. Let's let's say, for example, you know, we all have, self states or or ego states. And, you know, I'm maybe, you know, I might get scared or, angry.
• 17:58
  I get triggered, and and then I get scared and I start to back off or angry and I start to yell. And then but I'm aware that I was scared and and backed off. I'm aware that I was angry and I yelled, and so I go, I'm sorry. I yelled at you, but but I I got angry. So that's more on the normal end where there's not a separation.
• 18:25
  Now if there is on the continuum of trauma early and repeated trauma with severity causing a division in the personality, there's there's a sense of separation. So it can be that I got angry and I watched myself get angry or I was thinking, I don't wanna yell. I don't wanna yell. It's wrong deal. I shouldn't do this, but I couldn't help myself.
• 18:54
  I got triggered, and this part of me just hijacked me, kidnapped me, and came forward and started yelling. So there, there's that's when there's there's separation. Mhmm. Some separation. And then what a dissociative disorder would be when there's a clear cut me and not me.
• 19:15
  So there can be parts of me maybe that feel young, but separate. And and that part has its own sense of self and feels separate from me as adult. So and and parts can be organized by age, by function, by belief system, among many lines. Well, that's there there should continue. And again, we I know we have people who may be listening that that have complex trauma or dissociation.
• 19:49
  And what I like to say to people is that dissociation is something to be understood, respected, not not feared, and and, also treated. And I like to say to to people, when that where there is complex trauma, that things happen, when they were young, usually involving the the caregiver. It's something that happens interpersonally. And memories got maladaptively stored in the brain and that memory network got bigger and developed its own self. And that that and this emotional part can be reenacting the trauma not knowing it's over and can be triggered.
• 20:34
  Those are the dynamics. And I really like to explain it in a way that that shame, helps a person understand what's going on so they can see the way out.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: So you're when you're talking about treatment, you're talking about sort of putting together and processing some of those memories that were stored in separate pieces instead of being stored as one experience.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: That's that's correct. You can have different parts that hold different perspectives of the same memory or parts that hold different kinds of memories. So what we would do, I want to explain that depending on the degree of dissociation, we don't just jump right into the memories. First, we would do some preparation. We would do stabilization, teaching coping skills, relaxation skills, mindfulness, the the the ability to lower arousal and agitation and and calm oneself is very, very important.
• 21:46
  Then when the person is able to have one foot in the present thinking of the negative experience and being present with the therapist and one foot in the past being in touch with that negative memory. So one foot in the present in the here and now, one foot in the past with the memory, then the person will be ready to do memory work. And that is the second or that would be the the the next phase of treatment following stabilization. And here is where EMDR can be very helpful. So we start processing those maladaptively stored chromatic memories.
• 22:33
  Then there's a even after that, a person now starts to reintegrate. The personality starts to reintegrate or rehabilitate. So we we the person, would need to learn new skills, deal with fears of intimacy, of of going out and engaging life. And so we continue to process memories and teach new skills. So the there's these three very broad phases of treatment, stabilization, and number two, memory work, and number three, personality reintegration and rehabilitation.
• 23:20
  Again, three phases of treatment, isn't necessarily, linear. It's look at it as a spiral. We can do stabilization. Now the person's ready for memory, memory work, and so we start to process some memories, but a lot of emotion comes up. So we do more stabilization, then more memory work, and now the person is ready to engage in some new skills, but that can bring up new memories, so back to memory work.
• 23:50
  So we can be going back and forth, in these three phases of of treatment.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: And then when you're talking about the rehabilitation, you're talk you mean being able to stay in the present and function and maybe aware of the past, but able to continue functioning in the present and cope with whatever is coming up from the past as opposed to being lost in it or not aware of it or another part of them doing it for them.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: Well said.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: Yes. Indeed.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: So before we apply EMDR to that, tell me just how would you explain what EMDR is?
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: Okay. EMDR is a therapeutic approach, methodology, eight phases basically, to process these maladaptively stored memories. And we EMDR is a therapeutic approach, again, we make the assumption that that present problems are the result of maladaptively stored memories. So, what we do with the FDRs, we will access these memories, and then apply the standard protocol, standardized procedures to to process these memories so that they, instead of being isolated living in trauma time, they can be integrated into the wider memory system.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: And so the memory meaning the memory of what happened and the different aspects of the experience of it, that's what we're integrating is the size of this sound.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: Well said.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: Okay. Yes. Okay. What what can someone who if they have a clinician who is certified with EMDR, what would they expect in a session? Just, I know that's a very general question and not exact to an experience, but generally what kind of experience would they have?
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: Okay. Well, again there's a wide variety of experiences. So, on one hand, for memory to integrate a person may experience now what was too much then. So sometimes processing can be intense. Usually it's certain not as intense as the original experience nor does it last as long, but it can be intense.
• 26:27
  And, we certainly inform our clients when there's been significant trauma, that that can happen. Having said that, I've also worked with people who've really been able to process significant traumas and get through it without high intensity, certainly some intensity. But when when the person is ready for EMDR, on one hand, they're gonna be processing the emotion. EMDR, you know, facilitates processing, going to places where words don't go, but it's also a very efficient very efficient therapeutic methodology. Trauma isn't stored in the areas of the brain where there's word words.
• 27:20
  Talking is helpful, but talking's not sufficient. So a person may have talked through the incident, but there's still symptoms. We have to go to, places words don't go. The the these are amygdala based memories, implicit memories. So EMDR is able to go and access, these experiences at a physiological level and able to change the way that these memories are stored in the brain.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: And that's part of why it's so intense because you're pulling together these different pieces that are stored in different parts of the brain back into one experience.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: Yes. Now I I wanna say it's not intense for everybody. Okay. Okay. But I certainly don't wanna say that you can go with with complex trauma, a childhood history, and and do everything in three sessions and and, you know, without, you know, any any intensity.
• 28:28
  So just to give an example, I've worked with many first responders who've been involved in traumatic incidents. And there with single episode trauma, we find we're able to get through the experience very efficiently within I certainly find a lot can be done with a traumatic memory, one to three sessions. And that's what, again, single episode trauma. And as we continue up to the continuum, again, there would be more preparation. And with more preparation and the ability to comb and understanding the different aspects of the memory and what what happened and being prepared for it.
• 29:12
  The the intensity is is not is is not overwhelming. In fact, a major aim of EMDR treatment of course with complex trauma is to keep the person within the window of tolerance. And the person is always in control. There's always a stop signal, and, you know, there's ways to prepare the personality so the processing is not so intense. So again, I don't wanna say that that it's always gonna be easy.
• 29:48
  What I do wanna say is that there's methodology stabilization strategies, resourcing, methods that we use, safe, calm place exercises that we use so that a person can go through a very difficult memory and stay within their window of tolerance and understand what happened and the impact of the memory on their lives and then start to put the memory behind them so they can go forward in life in in an adaptive and productive way.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: So it's a it can be a difficult thing, but part of the purpose is managing it along the way, regulating that along the way.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: Yes. With affect regulation strategies taught as needed before the memory work, and they can be applied during the memory work so that the client is certainly able to to maintain affect regulation within their comfort zone.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: So how how is EMDR useful for dissociation specifically, and when should it not be used or not used yet. Does that make I
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: I I understand. And and I do treatment of complex trauma and and dissociation. So the contraindication is when the memory is too much. Person has to be able to stay present, you know, one foot in the present and one foot in the past. And when there's association, there can be a phobia, a phobic avoidance of going to the past.
• 31:33
  So we would not wanna jump right in and do memory work. It can really be too much. So there needs to be appropriate assessment to do to do uh-oh. Okay. Yeah.
• 31:46
  So there needs to be appropriate assessment to determine, the level dissociation, and what's needed, and then appropriate stabilization skills. Now some people may not need a lot of preparation, may really be ready, and other people may need a lot of stabilization skills. So we wanna do that assessment. And so after the person has the ability to call on sufficient affect regulation, then we can do the memory work. So the contraindication is that there's not sufficient capacity yet or readiness, emotional readiness to process the memory.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: Okay. So part of it is it's sort of like what you were talking about with regulation during the process. Part of it is being ready to engage in the actual EMDR process or or or the memory work and being prepared to be able to face that present and to do the work of regulating? Is that what you mean?
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: Yes. You've covered the components. So certainly before the memory processing, the person knows what to expect. The person is prepared. The person already has the coping skills.
• 33:06
  Then during memory processing, there's a variety of strategies to control the level of emotion and affect that may come on up. And certainly the person is able to say stop. EMDR is very interactive. So and and again, we it's very important that the person stay within their window of tolerance. And certainly going through the memories a collaborative process with you know with the client and with the client in control.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: How would the client know to advocate for something or ask for EMDR or to say stop or to empower themselves in those ways? How how do they do that?
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: Well, first of all, if there's any disturbing memory, EMDR therapy can can be appropriate.
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: Oh, okay.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: Alright. So and again, for people on out there, there is a book that came out a few years ago written by Francine Shapiro that's called Getting past your past, which can also explain the process.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: Oh, thank you.
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Getting past your past, and she wrote it, for the general public. And there's a lot of case examples in there and even some stabilization exercises.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: So when some people talk about EMDR being difficult with trauma, is that what they're talking about that they just were not ready yet or the therapist maybe didn't respond to their need to pace it differently? Or
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: Yes. That can certainly be, you know, something that happens is that sometimes processing can take place, too soon. That happens. And what's important is that the therapist recognizes this and the client, again can indicate their distress and then stabilization can, you know, can continue.
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: How does, how does someone find a therapist or clinician who is trained in EMDR?
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: Well, the EMDR Institute and the EMDR International Association have websites and there's always a section there on find a clinician. But it's also important for, you know, anytime a person engages in therapy to talk to the therapist. Does this therapist have experience with the current problem that they have? So EMDR therapy is still therapy. The clinician needs to know about the research and therapeutic treatment strategies for the particular clinical population that they're working with.
• 36:02
  So if somebody has a grief issue, what's important is the therapist has some knowledge and experience in working with grief. Now for complex trauma dissociation, the therapist should also have, you know, education and be knowledgeable about these psychological conditions and familiar very familiar with the treatment strategies and and also the modifications to the EMDR pro protocol that would be appropriate for the particular population. And of course, like anything else, it's also important there's a there's a good fit between the the therapist and the client as So
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: just having someone who does EMDR is not enough. They still need to know how to apply EMDR to those specific issues, but then like any therapy, they also need to click well with the person so that they can work together well as in the therapeutic process.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: That's correct. Yeah. That's that's correct. Knowing EMDR with what we teach in the in the our our basic training is is sufficient to process, sufficient to process trauma. And, I would say most clinicians are familiar with developmental psychology and would readily be able to apply EMDR to anxiety and depressive conditions.
• 37:35
  So but, again, interviewing the clinicians and and, being able to say this is what's going on. Have you dealt with people who've had problems like me? And in a conversation, you can have a sense if there's a good fit as well as during the first session. And and then also as we start to get toward dissociation and complex trauma, it is important that the therapist have the training to deal with complex trauma dissociation. Just knowing EMDR without knowledge of dissociation is not sufficient.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: How would a clinician get more training in dissociation?
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: Well, there's a variety of ways, you know. There's a number of different courses and workshops that are offered. There is the. Society for for Trauma and International Society for Trauma and Dissociation. And in the EMDR community, there are advanced courses on EMDR and complex trauma and dealing with dissociative symptoms.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: So there is some specific EMDR training that is specific to complex trauma?
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: Yes. There is. It's also one of the things that I engage in and and I'm I'm always learning.
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: So clinicians could get that information through the institute?
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: That's correct. Through the institute or the EMDR International Association website. And I believe there's a variety of people who, you know, offer advanced training in a variety of areas.
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: And these trainings are on the information for them is online on the website?
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: Yes. For, for clinicians who are interested in more training, they can go to the they can look at the website and and see what's available, with the EMDR Institute and with the EMDR International Association website. That's mgra.org. I wanna emphasize that mgra.org and emdr.com.
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: Is there anything else that you think we need to know as far as an introduction of EMDR and trauma?
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: Yes. One of the things I would like to say is that, you know, EMDR therapy is is now evidence based. And research continues to show its effectiveness across a wide variety of clinical conditions too. Again, all psychological conditions at some level have experiences, memories that are maladaptively stored that would need to be processed. And EMDR therapy is an effective, you know, effective and efficient therapeutic modality that can be helpful.
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: So even with more general issues, there are roots to early experiences or
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: Yes. So it's beyond just trauma. So interpersonal experiences, negative beliefs, I'm not good enough. I'm not lovable. I don't belong.
• 41:16
  These negative beliefs, which relate to self esteem issues, relationship issues, all are gonna go back to earlier childhood experiences. That the negative beliefs are the symptoms of experiences that have been now adaptively stored. Negative beliefs don't cause the problems. Negative beliefs are the symptoms of of memories, maladaptively stored. And EMDR therapy can be used to process these memories.
• 41:48
  And this would result in a change, you know, the way the memory stored in the brain. And something else that happens with the EMDR two is the memory, it not only gets desensitized, losing its emotional punch, but more adaptive beliefs take their place. We go from I'm not good enough, I am good enough. I'm in danger, I survived. I'm powerless, I have choices.
• 42:19
  So EMDR is a paradigm of resilience.
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: Oh, wow. Really a way to not just process what's in the past, but to live differently in the present because it has been processed.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: And be empowered in the future.
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: That's amazing.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: And what we do is we process the past memories, underline the present problem, then we target the present triggers. What are the current people or situations that trigger the problem? And then we lay down a positive template for adaptive future behavior. So let's say the present trigger is feeling, unsafe or not good enough when there's an, disagreement with a family member or a colleague. We process past memories where the I'm not good enough or I'm not safe comes from.
• 43:18
  Then we would process the present trigger with the the recent event with the family member or colleague. And then now imagine that same event happening in the future. Now we would handle it. And EMDR can be utilized to strengthen an adaptive response. So but the other thing to realize as well is that we're changing the way these memories are stored in the brain.
• 43:46
  Research neuroimaging research has showed that the brain looks different after EMDR processing. And as I said before, the those negative beliefs shift and change to something that's more adaptive and empowering. And of course, that's the goal of therapy, to empower the person in the present and the future.
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: So not just processing old memories, but also identifying some of the thoughts and patterns that are because of old memories, but then identifying the triggers in the present that stir that up. And then because of that all being processed and desensitized, being more empowered now and in the future to be able to handle things differently than before.
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: Yes. Well said.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: That's amazing.
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: Indeed. And as and as a therapist, the EMDR has really changed the way I I approach therapy. It truly is amazing.
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: It's so it's it's a lot more than just processing old memories or not being upset by them anymore. There's a lot more to it.
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: That's correct. It's not just processing old memories and being okay in the present, but also empowering a person in the to engage adaptive way in the future. Absolutely.
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: Oh, thank you for talking to me today.
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: Well, really my pleasure. And I I enjoyed our conversation.
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: I am so grateful. Thank you. Thank you for listening. Your support of the podcast, the workbooks, and the community means so much to us as we try to create something together that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing, and you can join us on the community at www.systemspeakcommunity.com.
• 45:57
  We'll see you there.