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What Makes Ministry Sustainable? | Eric H. F. Law · Future Christian

• 0:05
  Martha Tatarnic: This is the Future Christian Podcast, a conversation about church leadership, fresh ideas, and
• 1:08
  Martha Tatarnic: the future of the church.
• 2:11
  Loren Richmond Jr: This is Loren Richmond Jr., and I'm glad to be welcoming to the show
• 2:15
  Loren Richmond Jr: Reverend Doctor Eric HF Law. Hello, thanks for being here.
• 2:19
  Eric H F Law: Hey Loren, how are you?
• 2:22
  Loren Richmond Jr: Good thanks. I'm glad to have you. Eric was on the show, gosh, four
• 2:25
  Loren Richmond Jr: or five years ago, I think it was now.
• 2:28
  Eric H F Law: Mm-hmm.
• 2:29
  Loren Richmond Jr: It's been a minute, but I'm glad to have you back today. Before we
• 2:32
  Loren Richmond Jr: begin and dive in, do you want to share about yourself, your f your
• 2:35
  Loren Richmond Jr: background, your faith journey, what's that looked like in the past and what it
• 2:38
  Loren Richmond Jr: looks like today?
• 2:42
  Eric H F Law: Well, I think you know that I'm a immigrant, you know came to the
• 2:48
  Eric H F Law: United States at the age of fourteen, from Hong Kong. But I was I'm
• 2:54
  Eric H F Law: a lifelong Christian. s could be third generation or second generation Christian, b depending
• 3:00
  Eric H F Law: how you count. my grandfather was always involved with missionaries that came to Canton.
• 3:06
  Eric H F Law: And then my f you know and and so my father has always been
• 3:13
  Eric H F Law: benefited from missionaries from the US and the UK, you know, teaching him mu
• 3:19
  Eric H F Law: you know, showing him music and stuff. So so when when my parents moved
• 3:25
  Eric H F Law: to Hong Kong, the first thing we did was to join the Anglican church,
• 3:31
  Eric H F Law: where my mother found a lot of support. and so I grew up with
• 3:37
  Eric H F Law: with going to churches not just Christmas and Easter. I I was the youngest,
• 3:44
  Eric H F Law: so mom took me to church a lot. so that's kinda in my DNA.
• 3:50
  Eric H F Law: and very much in the Episcopal Anglican tradition. so but so my journey, you
• 3:56
  Eric H F Law: know, in the US, you know, I can it it was never a question
• 4:02
  Eric H F Law: whether I was not going to go to church and it's always been part
• 4:08
  Eric H F Law: of our our lives. But then the the the the immigrant experience you know
• 4:15
  Eric H F Law: challenged me to think about my faith very differently in terms of functioning in
• 4:21
  Eric H F Law: two different cultures. first in New York, Chinatown and then college and and discovering
• 4:27
  Eric H F Law: how the gospel comes alive beyond you know, what the preacher who preached boring
• 4:33
  Eric H F Law: sermons and receiving communion, you know, which is a great thing for you know
• 4:39
  Eric H F Law: for for
• 4:46
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 4:46
  Eric H F Law: you know, but really the the the the the the faith came alive at
• 4:52
  Eric H F Law: the crossrow of differences between cultures. and you if you look at all the
• 4:59
  Eric H F Law: biblical texts, Where Jesus encountered people who are economically different, culturally different. That's where
• 5:05
  Eric H F Law: the exciting
• 5:12
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
• 5:13
  Eric H F Law: stories are. The the the Samaritan woman at the well, the Saraparician
• 5:17
  Loren Richmond Jr: Hm.
• 5:18
  Eric H F Law: woman challenging Jesus to to cure her daughter daughter, you know. the unit to
• 5:24
  Eric H F Law: get baptized, you know, on the road, you know, sh you know, and and
• 5:31
  Eric H F Law: and so so the the gospel comes alive for me. at the at the
• 5:37
  Eric H F Law: intersection of our difference, whether it's cultural difference, even political difference.
• 5:44
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
• 5:46
  Eric H F Law: and in and would we dare to look in and live into those differences,
• 5:50
  Eric H F Law: then we're living the faith. So that's really
• 5:55
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 5:55
  Eric H F Law: in a nutshell why I do what I do, is to to get out
• 6:00
  Eric H F Law: of this be comfortable church. the future of the church is not to hide
• 6:05
  Eric H F Law: behind the four walls and say we're safe here. Not even to
• 6:10
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
• 6:11
  Eric H F Law: protect people who are not safe. You know, that's
• 6:13
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 6:14
  Eric H F Law: definitely that's important to do, but to have the courage to say, here's a
• 6:18
  Eric H F Law: difference, and if we work through this difference, we'll see Christ in the midst
• 6:22
  Eric H F Law: of us. We'll see the Spirit guiding us through this.
• 6:27
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 6:28
  Eric H F Law: My sermon number one.
• 6:30
  Loren Richmond Jr: Well, that's helpful as I'm thinking about I'll be preaching on on Pride Sunday
• 6:33
  Loren Richmond Jr: coming up here as we're recording this. So it'll be helpful. That's a good
• 6:36
  Loren Richmond Jr: quote or something to that effect. I think it's good to use 'cause I
• 6:39
  Loren Richmond Jr: I
• 6:43
  Eric H F Law: Mm-hmm.
• 6:44
  Loren Richmond Jr: wanna I think I'm gonna use a text from Isaiah. but anyway, I'll I'll
• 6:48
  Loren Richmond Jr: save that for now.
• 6:52
  Eric H F Law: And if you look at the early pioneer in the theological world around sexuality,
• 6:59
  Eric H F Law: you know, which you know and they all talked about their their identity, which
• 7:07
  Eric H F Law: they could not get rid of, as it intersect with the world and and
• 7:14
  Eric H F Law: and then the gospel comes in, basically rescue them. into this. It's deeply
• 7:22
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
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  Eric H F Law: connected with the faith. and and the the gay lesbian trans whatever s letter
• 7:27
  Eric H F Law: we're using now
• 7:32
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
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  Eric H F Law: is the f is we're the first who forces the church to c talk
• 7:36
  Eric H F Law: about sexuality in the church. Before we didn't
• 7:39
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm. Mm-hmm.
• 7:41
  Eric H F Law: want to talk about it. We didn't want to deal with it. The real
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  Eric H F Law: issue is not homosexuality. The real issue is we don't talk about heterosexuality.
• 7:50
  Loren Richmond Jr: Hmm.
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  Eric H F Law: Yet it exists because if you want to have babies, you gotta deal with
• 7:53
  Eric H F Law: sex, right? And yet
• 7:55
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 7:57
  Eric H F Law: we don't talk about sex in the church. And
• 8:00
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
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  Eric H F Law: then starting in the seventies, the pioneers in the gay and lesbian church movement
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  Eric H F Law: are saying that we have to deal with sex, you know, as a church.
• 8:10
  Eric H F Law: And that's really where the benefit of this crossroad again, and that
• 8:16
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
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  Eric H F Law: the issue is is for for the church as a whole to be able
• 8:19
  Eric H F Law: to talk about sex. Because it's part of life. Yeah.
• 8:22
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah, well this is good stuff. Yeah. Yeah. That's good stuff already here. share
• 8:26
  Loren Richmond Jr: if you would just any about things spiritual practices that come to mind for
• 8:30
  Loren Richmond Jr: you you're willing to share that are meaningful for you.
• 8:34
  Eric H F Law: I I run a Tuesday morning Bibles sharing for preachers. That's my principal practice
• 8:39
  Eric H F Law: now these days. where a group of us get together and you know, not
• 8:45
  Eric H F Law: everybody come every time and we will look at the lectionary gospel text and
• 8:51
  Eric H F Law: we talked about how it connects with our personal context and our community context
• 8:57
  Eric H F Law: and societal context. And at the end we have all kinds of ideas for
• 9:03
  Eric H F Law: for preaching. And and even though I don't preach every Sunday, I haven't been
• 9:09
  Eric H F Law: doing that for a while, I get a lot out of having that regul
• 9:14
  Eric H F Law: regular reflection with a group of committed people. the other spiritual practice is I
• 9:20
  Eric H F Law: read a poem a day. it could be secular, it could be spiritual, religious
• 9:26
  Eric H F Law: ones. some older one that rhymes, some you know, contemporary one, but one a
• 9:32
  Eric H F Law: day at least. And that has been a a s good feeding of my
• 9:38
  Eric H F Law: soul, you know, so
• 9:44
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah, yeah. Well thanks for sharing all that. Well, let me I suppose let
• 9:49
  Loren Richmond Jr: me introduce for our listeners I experienced your a workshop you did on this
• 9:54
  Loren Richmond Jr: topic of holy currencies, six blessings for sustainable missional ministries, probably gosh, seven, eight,
• 9:59
  Loren Richmond Jr: nine years ago now. It's been
• 10:05
  Eric H F Law: Mm-hmm.
• 10:06
  Loren Richmond Jr: a moment. But as I continue to stay in this work and around that
• 10:12
  Loren Richmond Jr: that context Like I've yet to see I think anything that I think details
• 10:18
  Loren Richmond Jr: as well like the realities of what is needed for, you know, sustainable ministries
• 10:24
  Loren Richmond Jr: and and the way
• 10:30
  Eric H F Law: Mm-hmm.
• 10:30
  Loren Richmond Jr: you frame it. So I think let's begin with this. Like talk maybe a
• 10:34
  Loren Richmond Jr: little bit about how you got into the work with your insu kaleidoscope institute
• 10:38
  Loren Richmond Jr: and how this framework or how these ideas came to be.
• 10:42
  Eric H F Law: Mm-hmm. Yeah, the Kalatus Institute was started in two thousand five. When I realized
• 10:48
  Eric H F Law: that the kind of work I was doing in those and at that time
• 10:54
  Eric H F Law: was intercultural, multicultural ministry. and the demand was so high that I needed to
• 11:00
  Eric H F Law: share with in a more systematic way and and build a community that can
• 11:07
  Eric H F Law: do this work. So I created an institute to train other people to do
• 11:13
  Eric H F Law: the work. And then l later on what During that time the whole you
• 11:19
  Eric H F Law: know, the churches were very excited about new kind of ministry and they would
• 11:25
  Eric H F Law: say it was called Emergent Church or the or fresh expression.
• 11:32
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 11:32
  Eric H F Law: And and for those of us who were in campus ministry back in the
• 11:34
  Eric H F Law: seventies were just kinda giggling and said, That's what we've been doing all this
• 11:36
  Eric H F Law: time and
• 11:39
  Loren Richmond Jr: Ha ha ha.
• 11:41
  Eric H F Law: now you're calling it fresh. we
• 11:43
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 11:43
  Eric H F Law: were ignored because we were radical, you know, campus people and but anyway Good
• 11:48
  Eric H F Law: for them, right? So we're talking about Jesus in the bar and you know
• 11:53
  Eric H F Law: you know all kind laundry love, you know, great stuff, right?
• 11:58
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yeah.
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  Eric H F Law: And so I began to really research about these ministries and what we I
• 12:06
  Eric H F Law: discovered was that the length of time that these ministry live is quite short.
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  Eric H F Law: The average age of these new ministry was like two and a half years.
• 12:19
  Eric H F Law: So they would get started usually with a young, energetic, you know, pastor, priest,
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  Eric H F Law: you know, guiding it with some gift to do that, either musically and otherwise.
• 12:33
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yep. Yep.
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  Eric H F Law: and then eventually the the the denomination if it were denominational church, they quote
• 12:41
  Eric H F Law: unquote ran out of money. And then someone would say, Well who's gonna pay
• 12:46
  Eric H F Law: for you to talk about Jesus at a bar?
• 12:51
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
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  Eric H F Law: So people were not talking about sustainability. They're talking about this exciting new direction.
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  Eric H F Law: and there's some that surviv that that's really survival. Laundry Love is one of
• 13:01
  Eric H F Law: the ones that continue, which is really quite interesting if you look at
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  Loren Richmond Jr: Huh. Mm-hmm.
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  Eric H F Law: because that doesn't take a lot of money to s to support, right? But
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  Eric H F Law: but l lot of them are gone. Long gone, you know. Amorph into something
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  Eric H F Law: else and the because it was so leadership focused that
• 13:21
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
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  Eric H F Law: eventually they need to get a real job.
• 13:25
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
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  Eric H F Law: So they when they leave, when they left the ministry died. And I seen
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  Eric H F Law: this over and over again. There's a wonderful ministry in this one church. People
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  Eric H F Law: lining up on the streets to get in. When he graduated to something else,
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  Eric H F Law: that thing die. I actually asked him. What happened to this ministry when you
• 13:48
  Eric H F Law: move? He said, then there's this no more. He actually said that out loud.
• 13:54
  Eric H F Law: And I kinda go, that's not no no no no no. No, you know.
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  Eric H F Law: So I began to research other kinds of ministry that had a longevity, that
• 14:05
  Eric H F Law: that are sustainable in in in all kinds of ways, not just financially. And
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  Eric H F Law: and there was some that's already in existence. And and in the book I
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  Eric H F Law: chronicle about six of them. and five of them are really still going strong.
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  Eric H F Law: And and I ask questions, you know, what tell me this this story, you
• 14:26
  Eric H F Law: know, what makes you sustainable, what makes you missional, continue to connect with with
• 14:32
  Eric H F Law: with people who don't know about you, and and you know and and so
• 14:37
  Eric H F Law: on. And as as I was listening to these stories, things begin to emerge,
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  Eric H F Law: common themes. And I don't know if you know Loren, I I was an
• 14:48
  Eric H F Law: engineer, I was a computer system
• 14:54
  Loren Richmond Jr: Okay.
• 14:55
  Eric H F Law: designer. So I designed programs that works, okay?
• 14:58
  Loren Richmond Jr: Uh-huh.
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  Eric H F Law: And if it doesn't work I debug it. You know, that's the term we
• 15:04
  Eric H F Law: use. And so this program or this begin to take shapes and and I
• 15:10
  Eric H F Law: distilled it down to a workable, manageable way, models, structures or pictures and and
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  Eric H F Law: what comes up was the holy currencies. That all of these ministry has six
• 15:22
  Eric H F Law: things in common. That they talk about them in terms of blessings, they talk
• 15:27
  Eric H F Law: about how they flow, the exchanges that they talk about. and and it's not
• 15:33
  Eric H F Law: just capitalistic approach To exchange. You give me something, I give you something, you
• 15:39
  Eric H F Law: know, but it's
• 15:45
  Loren Richmond Jr: Right.
• 15:45
  Eric H F Law: much more complex and much more relational base. So the six I call them
• 15:49
  Eric H F Law: currency because I wanted that the current, you know, as a flowing concept and
• 15:54
  Eric H F Law: the exchange concept. And so it was money, which is what everybody talk about,
• 15:58
  Eric H F Law: time and place,
• 16:03
  Loren Richmond Jr: Right.
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  Eric H F Law: time and place this together because we might have a place but if we
• 16:10
  Eric H F Law: don't spend time in it, it's worth nothing. It's exchanged into nothing. So time
• 16:16
  Eric H F Law: and place is the second one. And then you have relationship, gracious leadership. So
• 16:22
  Eric H F Law: I didn't just say leadership. Gracious leadership is the kind of leadership that that
• 16:29
  Eric H F Law: can enable that create a place where time where people can build relationship, trusting
• 16:35
  Eric H F Law: relationship and speak truth to each other. And then That brings to the relationship
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  Eric H F Law: currency and then the truth currency and then the wellness currency. So wellness currency
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  Eric H F Law: of wellness is really why we do ministry. So if you look at every
• 16:54
  Eric H F Law: every every ministry and ask what is your mission, if it's a viable, you
• 17:00
  Eric H F Law: know, ministry, a faithful and viable ministry, they always have a wellness factor.
• 17:07
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
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  Eric H F Law: We do this ministry because we want to feed the hungry physical wellness. We
• 17:11
  Eric H F Law: do we do this ministry because we want to help people dealing with trauma
• 17:16
  Eric H F Law: or mental illness, right? That's
• 17:21
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 17:23
  Eric H F Law: that's wellness again, right? and and so so so wellness is becoming like a
• 17:30
  Eric H F Law: currency where we we seek to increase and we seek to map and analyze
• 17:37
  Eric H F Law: and figure out what is lacking. What
• 17:44
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 17:45
  Eric H F Law: is lacking in wellness point to the other currencies and how you invest your
• 17:50
  Eric H F Law: other currency to create wellness. So if a church discovers that the school next
• 17:56
  Eric H F Law: door, the public school next door is have a very low graduation rate. In
• 18:01
  Eric H F Law: fact, this real case I'm thinking about, you know, have a you know, twenty
• 18:07
  Eric H F Law: five percent graduation rate. That means one in f
• 18:13
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
• 18:13
  Eric H F Law: four in f three in four did not graduate. That is not
• 18:17
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah, not great.
• 18:18
  Eric H F Law: well, okay? That is not a social wellness, okay? So the community is not
• 18:23
  Eric H F Law: well, the city is not well, it is showed up in the school and
• 18:28
  Eric H F Law: it's right next door. So the church says, Well, okay, we want to invest
• 18:33
  Eric H F Law: our currency to to to fix this, to create wellness for the students, at
• 18:38
  Eric H F Law: least. So they have inherited some money, $100,000. And they said, we don't want
• 18:43
  Eric H F Law: to just use it to pay bills. We want to invest it in a
• 18:48
  Eric H F Law: way that will help these students. So I said, what ideas do you have?
• 18:53
  Eric H F Law: I said, well we have a nice building. they walk through our parking lot
• 18:58
  Eric H F Law: all time and we can open up one of the rooms And put new
• 19:03
  Eric H F Law: computers in it and with chaperones. Students can come after school, we can help
• 19:08
  Eric H F Law: them with their homework and so on, right? Sounds great.
• 19:13
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
• 19:14
  Eric H F Law: So what currency was being used? Money, time and place. And they're all older,
• 19:18
  Eric H F Law: so they have time to volunteer. So time and place and money. That's it.
• 19:23
  Eric H F Law: Right? And I said, okay, before we go to the full steam ahead, you
• 19:27
  Eric H F Law: know, they have money to do that too, right? And I said, What relationship
• 19:32
  Eric H F Law: currency do you have? What truth
• 19:37
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:39
  Eric H F Law: do you know? And I said, Do you have any relationship with the school?
• 19:44
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 19:46
  Eric H F Law: and do you w know what the story truth of the stories of these
• 19:48
  Eric H F Law: kids are? All right.
• 19:51
  Loren Richmond Jr: Hmm.
• 19:52
  Eric H F Law: And so I said, Well, let's do those are the two currencies I want
• 19:56
  Eric H F Law: you to look at. So six months. You got six months to build up
• 20:00
  Eric H F Law: your currency of relationship and truth. So they went to the school, talked to
• 20:04
  Eric H F Law: the principal, and said, We heard about the unwellness of the students. They didn't
• 20:08
  Eric H F Law: use those terms, you know, the what can we do to help? Well we
• 20:12
  Eric H F Law: want to know what's going on. And the principal pull out a list and
• 20:16
  Eric H F Law: say, We're glad somebody cares And here's what you can do. We need volunteers
• 20:20
  Eric H F Law: to help with the kids, with the you know, w when they honor the
• 20:24
  Eric H F Law: teachers, we want you know, we want, you know, y you know, from from
• 20:28
  Eric H F Law: traffic director to, you know
• 20:33
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
• 20:35
  Eric H F Law: and they decide to volunteer and got to know the teacher, got to know
• 20:40
  Eric H F Law: the counselors and the and the students. And then beginning to hear stories. And
• 20:45
  Eric H F Law: then six months later, I showed up and the principal was sitting there. The
• 20:50
  Eric H F Law: school
• 20:56
  Loren Richmond Jr: Hmm.
• 20:57
  Eric H F Law: counselor was sitting there in the church meeting
• 20:59
  Loren Richmond Jr: Hmm. Wow.
• 21:02
  Eric H F Law: and they said, Now let's talk about real for real, what what can we
• 21:04
  Eric H F Law: do? And they presented
• 21:07
  Loren Richmond Jr: Wow.
• 21:07
  Eric H F Law: the same idea and the principal says, I ain't gonna work. No students are
• 21:10
  Eric H F Law: gonna come to your church.
• 21:14
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 21:16
  Eric H F Law: here's what we we'll do. They don't trust you, okay?
• 21:19
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 21:19
  Eric H F Law: Even though you know them. I can give you a classroom on Monday morning
• 21:22
  Eric H F Law: at eight o'clock for an hour. That's it. why Monday morning? Because the teachers
• 21:26
  Eric H F Law: are meeting and the students are used to getting to school by eight o'clock.
• 21:29
  Eric H F Law: So I will give you an a classroom, you bring breakfast. Because sometimes these
• 21:33
  Eric H F Law: kids that's the only good meal. You
• 21:37
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
• 21:40
  Eric H F Law: bring breakfast and you do your hour of support that you say. Let's see
• 21:45
  Eric H F Law: what happened. So what the truth does and the relationship gave them was readjust
• 21:50
  Eric H F Law: the the investment of time and place and money
• 21:56
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 21:57
  Eric H F Law: into Monday morning. One hour. And that's all they got.
• 22:00
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yeah.
• 22:04
  Eric H F Law: And now that program all this you know, the f and and then the
• 22:07
  Eric H F Law: first one they did and then they got really nervous before we kick off
• 22:11
  Eric H F Law: the the thing and And then we look at the cycle again and say,
• 22:15
  Eric H F Law: okay, we got we wanna address wellness. We got the truth, we got the
• 22:18
  Eric H F Law: relationship, we got the money, we got the time and place. What's missing? Gracious
• 22:22
  Eric H F Law: leadership. So
• 22:26
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
• 22:27
  Eric H F Law: we did a leadership training for the volunteers. Teach them how to listen, how
• 22:32
  Eric H F Law: to create a space where the student can speak truth and build relationship. And
• 22:38
  Eric H F Law: that's what they did. All these kids needs were listening adults. And the first
• 22:44
  Eric H F Law: group of twelve showed up and they all graduated. We're into our sixth or
• 22:50
  Eric H F Law: seventh year we you know, and it's ki keep going and the student who
• 22:56
  Eric H F Law: went on to become marine biologists and you
• 23:02
  Loren Richmond Jr: Wow.
• 23:03
  Eric H F Law: know, engineers and it's absolutely amazing. When you when you get all the currency
• 23:08
  Eric H F Law: slowing before you even launch a ministry, it will be successful. And it will
• 23:14
  Eric H F Law: be sustainable. Okay, so and and and it it it it takes a a
• 23:20
  Eric H F Law: a time time to really the the you know, people want to skip with
• 23:26
  Eric H F Law: all the relationship stuff. It's just too hard.
• 23:32
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yeah.
• 23:34
  Eric H F Law: Well, you know, then then if they hadn't done that, they would now They
• 23:39
  Eric H F Law: will be now having a room full of outdated computer gathering gathering dust.
• 23:45
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 23:45
  Eric H F Law: And said we try, we try to reach out. And then we ask,
• 23:47
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yep.
• 23:49
  Eric H F Law: why don't you have young people in your church? Well we try.
• 23:52
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah, we tried.
• 23:53
  Eric H F Law: Now every Pentecost they have their own graduation for their own kids. They come
• 23:58
  Loren Richmond Jr: Wow.
• 23:59
  Eric H F Law: and then the kids are asking, Why are you so nice to us? And
• 24:02
  Eric H F Law: they said, Because we're Presbyterians. And they
• 24:06
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah, yeah.
• 24:07
  Eric H F Law: said, Why don't you ask us to join your church? Do you want to?
• 24:12
  Loren Richmond Jr: Ha ha.
• 24:13
  Eric H F Law: So they became classes and these young people are becoming members of the church.
• 24:15
  Eric H F Law: Some of them
• 24:18
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 24:19
  Eric H F Law: stay be stay in town and continue to serve, you know. So it's really
• 24:21
  Eric H F Law: one of the one of the great success stories that we have by using
• 24:24
  Eric H F Law: the currency.
• 24:27
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yeah. I wanna emphasize this 'cause it is a cycle and you you
• 24:30
  Loren Richmond Jr: made known to that. Maybe can you send me that image? Maybe I can
• 24:33
  Loren Richmond Jr: include it in the show notes perhaps.
• 24:37
  Eric H F Law: Sure. Mm-hmm.
• 24:39
  Loren Richmond Jr: but I think that's a great image or the cyclical nature of it in
• 24:42
  Loren Richmond Jr: that if I again if I'm understanding the kind of feed one feeds the
• 24:46
  Loren Richmond Jr: next in a cyclical way. I wanna I wanna ask this, I wanna ask
• 24:49
  Loren Richmond Jr: a few questions here. What is like I often would presume that money is
• 24:53
  Loren Richmond Jr: the one that people assume to be the most necessary. Like, is that true?
• 24:56
  Loren Richmond Jr: What have you seen? Okay.
• 25:00
  Eric H F Law: Mm-hmm. No. What I discover in some of the ministries that I research is
• 25:05
  Eric H F Law: that the only currency that could they could miss and still be sustainable is
• 25:10
  Eric H F Law: money.
• 25:15
  Loren Richmond Jr: Wa say that again.
• 25:17
  Eric H F Law: There are some ministry that does not need money.
• 25:20
  Loren Richmond Jr: Wow.
• 25:21
  Eric H F Law: It's just exchanges of all different kinds of things. Relationship and truth and time
• 25:23
  Eric H F Law: and place.
• 25:26
  Loren Richmond Jr: Uh-huh.
• 25:27
  Eric H F Law: and you know, money is not the focus. It's really, you know, but if
• 25:29
  Eric H F Law: you have time and place you do need money, right? But it's
• 25:32
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yeah.
• 25:34
  Eric H F Law: not like I'm giving you money to buy this. But the
• 25:38
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 25:38
  Eric H F Law: money is says, Well, we can keep up the building so that we can
• 25:41
  Eric H F Law: have this, but that's not part of the, you know,
• 25:44
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
• 25:44
  Eric H F Law: talk that we have. Money is often the last thing we talk about. So
• 25:49
  Eric H F Law: for example, there's a church that did the relational work and the truth work
• 25:54
  Eric H F Law: around mental health for children in this town that no one you know, now
• 25:59
  Eric H F Law: it's okay to talk about that, but back when they were doing this nobody
• 26:04
  Eric H F Law: was talking about mental health for kids. And and what they discover was that
• 26:09
  Eric H F Law: that there were l quite a number of organizations that w attempt to do
• 26:14
  Eric H F Law: this and were frustrated. And so they begin to become the hub for that
• 26:19
  Eric H F Law: conversation, to build relationship and have the truth work done. and then they were
• 26:24
  Eric H F Law: also building relationship with the city. and they were the city councils and they
• 26:29
  Eric H F Law: had relationship with them and find j just basically finding out what are we
• 26:34
  Eric H F Law: doing as a city for children, you know. and so they realized that the
• 26:39
  Eric H F Law: church is too small to create a children's mental health center. And that was
• 26:44
  Eric H F Law: the the vision. And and the we didn't up to that point, we if
• 26:49
  Eric H F Law: we had said we need this money to this to build this to build
• 26:54
  Eric H F Law: that, that would have gone to you know, and then you had to deal
• 26:59
  Eric H F Law: with the legals and all of that stuff, right? Then before you knew it
• 27:04
  Eric H F Law: you lost your mission, right?
• 27:09
  Loren Richmond Jr: Right, right. Right.
• 27:13
  Eric H F Law: So there was the last thing they talk about. So by the time they
• 27:18
  Eric H F Law: got to that point, the city council said, We heard about your vision of
• 27:23
  Eric H F Law: a mental health place for for children and one stop is what we're looking
• 27:28
  Eric H F Law: at. So house all the organization. And the city said, We have a school
• 27:33
  Eric H F Law: that is not being used for a number of years now. Do
• 27:39
  Loren Richmond Jr: Hmm.
• 27:39
  Eric H F Law: you do you want it?
• 27:41
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
• 27:44
  Eric H F Law: And they said sure how much?
• 27:46
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yeah.
• 27:48
  Eric H F Law: they said a hundred dollar a year.
• 27:51
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 27:54
  Eric H F Law: And you just need to renovate it, okay? You we can find money for
• 27:55
  Eric H F Law: that, right? But
• 27:56
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yeah.
• 27:58
  Eric H F Law: the so so the money wasn't even the issue that
• 28:01
  Loren Richmond Jr: Wow.
• 28:02
  Eric H F Law: it was the relationship that got
• 28:04
  Loren Richmond Jr: Uh-huh.
• 28:05
  Eric H F Law: them to the place that that these folks who have the property and probably
• 28:09
  Eric H F Law: had connection with other parts of nonprofit money, okay? heard about the vision through
• 28:14
  Eric H F Law: the truth work. And money with flow. And building
• 28:19
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yeah.
• 28:23
  Eric H F Law: with flow. you know.
• 28:24
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 28:25
  Eric H F Law: and and we've seen this over and over again. When when
• 28:28
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 28:28
  Eric H F Law: people do the relational work and do the truth work and and tell the
• 28:33
  Eric H F Law: truth to to people and eventually the words will get to the people who
• 28:38
  Eric H F Law: have resources and they'll be happy to give you that. Because people who have
• 28:43
  Eric H F Law: resources, money and other things, don't know who to trust. And
• 28:49
  Loren Richmond Jr: Right. Right.
• 28:51
  Eric H F Law: if you build a trusting relationship and tell the truth, they'll give you the
• 28:53
  Eric H F Law: money. So money
• 28:56
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 28:56
  Eric H F Law: is not the first thing we talk about. It's the vision
• 28:59
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 28:59
  Eric H F Law: and the truth.
• 29:00
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. So this is this is a question I was gonna ask is where
• 29:03
  Loren Richmond Jr: do you start? So it sounds like you start with the the truth and
• 29:06
  Loren Richmond Jr: then the the currency of wellness then? Is that is talk talk about the
• 29:09
  Loren Richmond Jr: vision which is the wellness,
• 29:13
  Eric H F Law: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 29:15
  Loren Richmond Jr: right? And then build relationships?
• 29:18
  Eric H F Law: It's the so the the it's not linear. So it's it's not just going
• 29:21
  Loren Richmond Jr: Okay.
• 29:22
  Eric H F Law: one direction. So so so the the church that started the y young people
• 29:25
  Eric H F Law: program, they started with money. Somebody gave them some money and they
• 29:28
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
• 29:32
  Eric H F Law: were saying, Well we we don't want it just g you know, we had
• 29:34
  Eric H F Law: that before and then it's gone in three years and then we'd got nothing.
• 29:36
  Eric H F Law: You know, so so
• 29:39
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
• 29:41
  Eric H F Law: so they started with money, they wanted to know how to invest it. Okay,
• 29:43
  Eric H F Law: that's
• 29:45
  Loren Richmond Jr: Okay.
• 29:46
  Eric H F Law: one way. And then at the same time they read a newspaper article about
• 29:49
  Eric H F Law: the graduation rate. So so
• 29:53
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 29:54
  Eric H F Law: it's a double thing where they had the little truth and some money. And
• 29:59
  Eric H F Law: that's how they started. with the mental health one is basically through relationship first.
• 30:04
  Eric H F Law: You know, so so they they know about the issue and they begin to
• 30:09
  Eric H F Law: seek out relationship with other folks who are concerned.
• 30:15
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
• 30:16
  Eric H F Law: and then from there it it mushroom into, you know, other things that you
• 30:22
  Eric H F Law: know like some churches would start with something they already have. Like a
• 30:28
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 30:28
  Eric H F Law: church has al already have a farmers market.
• 30:33
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 30:33
  Eric H F Law: But it was transactional. So the farmers
• 30:35
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
• 30:36
  Eric H F Law: market rent this pay a little rent, maybe a percentage
• 30:39
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
• 30:40
  Eric H F Law: of what they take in for to come to the parking lot for the
• 30:44
  Eric H F Law: church. Right, that's it. They don't you know. So so we so we started
• 30:48
  Eric H F Law: looking at what can that time and place, you know, with a little money
• 30:52
  Eric H F Law: can exchange
• 30:56
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm. Yeah.
• 30:59
  Eric H F Law: for? What what what can what what else could it be besides this little
• 31:04
  Eric H F Law: money? And so we did the the we we started they started, you know,
• 31:09
  Eric H F Law: asking questions and listening to the community. And listening to the vendors. And and
• 31:14
  Eric H F Law: then they decided that the mission for the farmers market will be this will
• 31:19
  Eric H F Law: be the the the economic hub for the com for the poor. That changed
• 31:24
  Eric H F Law: everything, right?
• 31:29
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah, o yeah, okay, yeah. Yeah.
• 31:34
  Eric H F Law: And everybody understood what this place is, so when when the hurricane hit this
• 31:39
  Eric H F Law: Texas town, Everybody gather at that park.
• 31:45
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm.
• 31:47
  Eric H F Law: And because that was the mission every Saturday where
• 31:51
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 31:51
  Eric H F Law: people gather, right? there was a another church with a thrift shop and again,
• 31:55
  Eric H F Law: it was just transactional. People donate, yeah.
• 32:00
  Loren Richmond Jr: Time and place.
• 32:02
  Eric H F Law: People donate the goods and the time and place, people get a little bargains,
• 32:04
  Eric H F Law: a little money,
• 32:07
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
• 32:08
  Eric H F Law: and that's it. So again they they look they look at what the community's
• 32:11
  Eric H F Law: needs are and
• 32:14
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 32:14
  Eric H F Law: so they were Because the I think there was another storm that destroyed the
• 32:20
  Eric H F Law: building so they're rebuilding. So they're rebuilding a building. and don't call it a
• 32:26
  Eric H F Law: thrift shop. they the mission is to house all the com it's a thrift
• 32:32
  Eric H F Law: it's a exchange center, you know, f thrift
• 32:38
  Loren Richmond Jr: Hm.
• 32:38
  Eric H F Law: shop, but it also houses all the community organization. So when you go shopping
• 32:44
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 32:45
  Eric H F Law: You also encounter the job counsellor, you will encounter the you know the the
• 32:49
  Eric H F Law: micro loan person, you can you can
• 32:53
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 32:53
  Eric H F Law: encounter, you know, the the abort with with jobs and so on. And so
• 32:58
  Eric H F Law: they became the destination for people to come. And
• 33:04
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 33:05
  Eric H F Law: and then part of the thrift shop is also consignment, so you bring in
• 33:08
  Eric H F Law: a different crowd that
• 33:11
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
• 33:12
  Eric H F Law: that People, you know, I don't wanna just give this away. So so here's
• 33:16
  Eric H F Law: a you know, beautiful table, you know, and there are people who pay full
• 33:20
  Eric H F Law: price for that and then there will be more money coming in and then
• 33:24
  Eric H F Law: and then you bring in a different kind of clientele and then they meet
• 33:28
  Loren Richmond Jr: Right.
• 33:29
  Eric H F Law: other people. Right? It became a dynamic place, starting with what can we do
• 33:35
  Eric H F Law: with this beyond the just the two little currency we get out of this?
• 33:42
  Loren Richmond Jr: Let me ask let me ask this. What do you think which currency do
• 33:46
  Loren Richmond Jr: you think churches most often overlook?
• 33:50
  Eric H F Law: Relationship relationship relationship.
• 33:52
  Loren Richmond Jr: Hmm.
• 33:57
  Eric H F Law: In fact we do a whole workshop to teach people how to build relationship.
• 34:02
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 34:03
  Eric H F Law: So for example if you ask a a church member who serves in a
• 34:05
  Eric H F Law: soup kitchen, you
• 34:08
  Loren Richmond Jr: Uh-huh.
• 34:09
  Eric H F Law: know, and said, Well how's that re ministry help you build relationship? So yeah,
• 34:12
  Eric H F Law: we know a lot of people there right and they said, Well name me
• 34:16
  Eric H F Law: some persons and
• 34:20
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 34:21
  Eric H F Law: and tell me some stories and so what?
• 34:24
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 34:25
  Eric H F Law: They think The transactional th gesture of serving food is relationship building. That is
• 34:28
  Eric H F Law: not
• 34:31
  Loren Richmond Jr: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
• 34:34
  Eric H F Law: relationship building. Relationship building requires time where you where you listen and you feed
• 34:39
  Eric H F Law: back to the person that you have listened, and we're just basically step by
• 34:44
  Eric H F Law: step teaching people how to be relational. And so So so so there's one
• 34:50
  Eric H F Law: church that does an annual rummage sale that tick that will br that usually
• 34:55
  Eric H F Law: is a big community event and that brings in twenty five percent of the
• 35:00
  Eric H F Law: annual budget. That's how big it is.
• 35:06
  Loren Richmond Jr: Hm. Wow.
• 35:08
  Eric H F Law: And it's transactional. They don't you know, I said how how many how many
• 35:12
  Eric H F Law: new persons do you know get to know
• 35:16
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 35:16
  Eric H F Law: in one of these events? They look at me like, Are we supposed to?
• 35:18
  Eric H F Law: We get them money, isn't that enough?
• 35:21
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yeah.
• 35:23
  Eric H F Law: And they spend all year tagging things that people donate and so on. And
• 35:27
  Eric H F Law: so I want you to change this event into a relational event.
• 35:32
  Loren Richmond Jr: Hmm.
• 35:33
  Eric H F Law: And so we train f four people to be relational. Their job was to
• 35:39
  Eric H F Law: hang out and listen and build relationship with the people there.
• 35:45
  Loren Richmond Jr: Hmm.
• 35:45
  Eric H F Law: It changed the so in st and and then and then instead of tagging
• 35:52
  Eric H F Law: everything, they will say, pay what you can. You know, so they
• 35:59
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
• 36:01
  Eric H F Law: don't spend all the time Collecting money. Pay what you can. Put the money
• 36:04
  Eric H F Law: in the box and and they
• 36:07
  Loren Richmond Jr: Uh-huh.
• 36:07
  Eric H F Law: will some of the bigger items say this retail this would be this much,
• 36:09
  Eric H F Law: but give
• 36:12
  Loren Richmond Jr: Right.
• 36:12
  Eric H F Law: what you can. And they make more money actually.
• 36:16
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 36:17
  Eric H F Law: and then they don't spend time cranking out machines and giving change. People just
• 36:20
  Eric H F Law: put money in the box, take what they want and and go. And and
• 36:23
  Eric H F Law: then
• 36:27
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 36:28
  Eric H F Law: and then and then So I said, how can you make this a relational
• 36:31
  Eric H F Law: event? Well so let's do put all the toys in the middle and it's
• 36:34
  Eric H F Law: all free for the kids. And then and then we
• 36:37
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah, good idea.
• 36:38
  Eric H F Law: will we will spend time with the kids and the parents will be there
• 36:41
  Eric H F Law: and we'll talk to the parents. And that was
• 36:44
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah, yeah.
• 36:45
  Eric H F Law: wonderful. At the end of the event, they actually sit around and tell stories
• 36:48
  Eric H F Law: of whom they got to know. They each
• 36:51
  Loren Richmond Jr: That's good.
• 36:52
  Eric H F Law: share a story of someone they got to know.
• 36:55
  Loren Richmond Jr: That's really good.
• 36:57
  Eric H F Law: And and that that spearheaded a whole new ministry, after school ministry.
• 37:02
  Loren Richmond Jr: Wow. Yeah. Yeah.
• 37:05
  Eric H F Law: so so so yeah, relationship is the principal things we train people to do.
• 37:11
  Eric H F Law: We have converted funeral ministry, memorial service into relational ministry. We have one church
• 37:17
  Eric H F Law: that were a lot of people were dying for some reason and so
• 37:23
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 37:24
  Eric H F Law: they were doing like three funeral a month. kind of thing. And they were
• 37:26
  Eric H F Law: all translation transactionals and they were burning out the priests because he was doing
• 37:28
  Eric H F Law: all the work. And
• 37:31
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 37:35
  Eric H F Law: so we train a seventeen people to be relational in this church. And they
• 37:40
  Eric H F Law: host every funeral in that church with those seventeen people. And they were building
• 37:45
  Eric H F Law: relationship. Two years later the church doubled in size and they asked a newcomer,
• 37:51
  Eric H F Law: you know, Survey the newcomers and fifty percent of them says the first contact
• 37:56
  Eric H F Law: with the church was at their funeral.
• 38:02
  Loren Richmond Jr: Wow. That's
• 38:04
  Eric H F Law: Because
• 38:04
  Loren Richmond Jr: something.
• 38:05
  Eric H F Law: this church has the best funeral in town.
• 38:08
  Loren Richmond Jr: Wow. Yeah.
• 38:10
  Eric H F Law: Because when you go there people listen to you. And
• 38:12
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 38:13
  Eric H F Law: then it's that if this church does this, I want to be part of
• 38:14
  Eric H F Law: this. You know.
• 38:16
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 38:17
  Eric H F Law: And so so yes, you're right. The the often the missing piece is the
• 38:21
  Eric H F Law: currency relationship.
• 38:25
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah, that's good. Let me ask this and I I have to be I
• 38:30
  Loren Richmond Jr: have to ask this somewhat sheepishly because I think I've made this own mistake
• 38:35
  Loren Richmond Jr: in my ministry experience. The currency of gracious leadership, you already kinda hinted at
• 38:40
  Loren Richmond Jr: it at the beginning of so many times ministries are really dependent upon a
• 38:46
  Loren Richmond Jr: key leader. And I think, you know, this was most most emblematic in the
• 38:51
  Loren Richmond Jr: in the ministry that I led that I'm thinking of. How do you coach,
• 38:56
  Loren Richmond Jr: how do you advise churches to avoid just centering leadership into one person or
• 39:01
  Loren Richmond Jr: f
• 39:07
  Eric H F Law: So it's it's a wellness issue. It's
• 39:10
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
• 39:10
  Eric H F Law: a currency of wellness issue. So so one of the things that I advise
• 39:16
  Eric H F Law: people to do is to make sure every volunteer, every pay staff has a
• 39:22
  Eric H F Law: job description that includes all the currencies.
• 39:29
  Loren Richmond Jr: Hmm.
• 39:29
  Eric H F Law: So so imagine your your your your job description. Your currency of money, you
• 39:33
  Eric H F Law: get paid this. Time and place, how much hour how many hours you expected
• 39:38
  Eric H F Law: to to work? Okay. a and where? So you have more than one campus
• 39:43
  Eric H F Law: or you go out into the community, you need to name those, right? How
• 39:48
  Eric H F Law: much time do you expect to spend outside and in, you know? I negotiated
• 39:53
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
• 39:53
  Eric H F Law: with my bishop, he would expect me to sit in the office. I said,
• 39:56
  Eric H F Law: No, I'm your I'm your congregation development officer. I need to be out in
• 39:59
  Eric H F Law: the field.
• 40:02
  Loren Richmond Jr: Right.
• 40:02
  Eric H F Law: So don't expect me to be in the office. That's not how it works,
• 40:07
  Eric H F Law: okay? So so they don't see me much, but because but they know where
• 40:12
  Eric H F Law: I where I'm gonna be. So but the point is time and place, right?
• 40:17
  Eric H F Law: And then and then you say what kind of leadership gracious leadership. My I
• 40:22
  Eric H F Law: need to have my leadership development fund. I have to you know, I use
• 40:27
  Eric H F Law: my time to develop leadership in the congregation. I need part of my time
• 40:32
  Eric H F Law: is to develop gracious leadership in the community, not just church member. You gotta
• 40:37
  Eric H F Law: name those as your job. And then you go, truth. what do you expect
• 40:42
  Eric H F Law: me to do to discover the truth in the community? To learn the truth
• 40:47
  Eric H F Law: about the the neighborhood and the church. That's that takes time. You know, and
• 40:52
  Eric H F Law: and and then and then wellness here's the thing. Your sabbatical. You know, how
• 40:57
  Eric H F Law: much so how much sabbath time I need to take per week, per month,
• 41:02
  Eric H F Law: per year? and then a sabbatical time okay ever after so many years and
• 41:07
  Eric H F Law: then in then in the gracious leadership piece it said part of my job
• 41:12
  Eric H F Law: is to train other people to do my job so for a volunteer for
• 41:17
  Eric H F Law: example okay
• 41:22
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
• 41:23
  Eric H F Law: so so in the job description you say for every eleven month I work
• 41:28
  Eric H F Law: in this job I take one month off for my Sabbath. That's my wellness
• 41:34
  Eric H F Law: agreement. In my leadership section, part of my job is to train someone to
• 41:39
  Eric H F Law: do my job. So that when I go on Sabbath for that month,
• 41:45
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
• 41:45
  Eric H F Law: that person can step in. Okay, so so if that runs across everything you
• 41:51
  Eric H F Law: do, every volunteer, okay, you're beginning to co-train, everybody is training someone to do
• 41:57
  Eric H F Law: the work. Does that make sense? So if I if
• 42:03
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yeah.
• 42:04
  Eric H F Law: I if I agree to be the Bible study coordinator, okay? And part of
• 42:08
  Eric H F Law: my job is to train other people to do what I do, so when
• 42:12
  Eric H F Law: I take one my my one month off, the four weeks will be taken
• 42:16
  Eric H F Law: care of by the person I train. And then yeah,
• 42:21
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
• 42:23
  Eric H F Law: and then for the for the volunteers for you cannot have the same job
• 42:26
  Eric H F Law: for more than three years in a row. You have to take a year
• 42:29
  Loren Richmond Jr: Okay. Okay.
• 42:31
  Eric H F Law: off. And then then for sure they get to explore other things and then
• 42:35
  Eric H F Law: someone else will take on the job, right? so
• 42:40
  Loren Richmond Jr: Which certainly I got yeah. I was just gonna certainly help with I imagine
• 42:43
  Loren Richmond Jr: burnout, fatigue, all those things.
• 42:46
  Eric H F Law: Mm-hmm. So so wellness and Sabbath is the your key in in in in
• 42:51
  Eric H F Law: building your your gracious leadership. Okay.
• 42:57
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm. Let me ask one more question here before we take a break. Certainly
• 43:01
  Loren Richmond Jr: I imagine you see it like at some point ministries come to an end.
• 43:06
  Loren Richmond Jr: Is that is that part of the the cycle? Is that when is it
• 43:10
  Loren Richmond Jr: necessary to sort of recognize when one of these currencies is no more? How
• 43:15
  Loren Richmond Jr: do you coach, how do you advise ministries
• 43:20
  Eric H F Law: Hmm.
• 43:20
  Loren Richmond Jr: and non profits to, you know, churches to to discern that, I guess, is
• 43:23
  Loren Richmond Jr: what I'm asking.
• 43:26
  Eric H F Law: Well that would be the truth work, wouldn't it?
• 43:28
  Loren Richmond Jr: okay. Okay. Yeah.
• 43:30
  Eric H F Law: So so truth work in your in your job description should be part of
• 43:33
  Eric H F Law: your mutual ministry review.
• 43:37
  Loren Richmond Jr: Okay.
• 43:38
  Eric H F Law: Everyone should be review every ministry should be reviewed a annually, if not by
• 43:43
  Eric H F Law: you know, every two years. And every individual should be reviewed, in a kind
• 43:48
  Eric H F Law: of constructive way of course. And it's truth telling time. Has this ministry run
• 43:53
  Eric H F Law: its course? Does it need to be transformed? Do we need to say goodbye
• 43:58
  Eric H F Law: to it? that's truth work. we need to stop calling this a youth group
• 44:03
  Eric H F Law: because this group is fifty year old. And you're
• 44:09
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yeah.
• 44:11
  Eric H F Law: not re you're not bringing in young people, so don't call it a youth
• 44:16
  Eric H F Law: group anymore, you know. give it a new name. You know, old folks getting
• 44:21
  Eric H F Law: together and have fun. Fine. Just you know, and then that way actually give
• 44:26
  Eric H F Law: it a new life, you know. Say goodbye to the fifty year old youth
• 44:31
  Eric H F Law: group, you know. and Yeah, so so but you know, maybe the the truth
• 44:36
  Eric H F Law: tells us that that particular demographic that we're reaching is no more. Like you
• 44:41
  Eric H F Law: know, Malala Japanese ministry, for example, Japanese immigration has halt stopped. So Japanese language
• 44:46
  Eric H F Law: ministry is not going to be viable, you know, if you're counting on them
• 44:51
  Eric H F Law: for money, you know.
• 44:57
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
• 44:59
  Eric H F Law: and you need to start thinking, you know, about letting go of that and
• 45:04
  Eric H F Law: start looking at second generation, third generation. Often interracial marriage
• 45:10
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 45:11
  Eric H F Law: is a big one to to explore, and and or else they're they're gonna
• 45:14
  Eric H F Law: be gone. You know, that that
• 45:17
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yeah.
• 45:19
  Eric H F Law: second generation, this is no longer meeting my need, you're still speaking Japanese with
• 45:22
  Eric H F Law: my parents, you know, and
• 45:25
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 45:26
  Eric H F Law: so the truth work is going to save a lot of headache if you're
• 45:30
  Eric H F Law: willing to face it.
• 45:34
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yeah. Well this is this is really good stuff. So I'll make sure
• 45:38
  Loren Richmond Jr: to have the links in the show notes to your website and your book
• 45:43
  Loren Richmond Jr: for people to get a hold of you. Let's move on for sake of
• 45:48
  Loren Richmond Jr: time to some closing questions here. and these closing questions we welcome folks to
• 45:52
  Loren Richmond Jr: take these as seriously or not as you'd like to. but if you're Pope
• 45:57
  Loren Richmond Jr: for a day, what might you like to do with that day?
• 46:02
  Eric H F Law: Hmm. I should have thought about this before I get on.
• 46:05
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 46:10
  Eric H F Law: I would Call call upon the faithful to get out and meet someone that's
• 46:16
  Eric H F Law: very different from them
• 46:22
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah, that's good.
• 46:22
  Eric H F Law: and say this is a beloved child of God too.
• 46:26
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Eric, you might appreciate this. I get my hair cut regularly from someone
• 46:32
  Loren Richmond Jr: who it's quite apparent that they vote very differently than me. And
• 46:39
  Eric H F Law: Mm-hmm.
• 46:40
  Loren Richmond Jr: as much as it's kinda weird at some times, I feel like it's a
• 46:44
  Loren Richmond Jr: great opportunity for me at least, and and hopefully I'm
• 46:48
  Eric H F Law: Mm-hmm.
• 46:49
  Loren Richmond Jr: trusting long term for for God to do something between us, the
• 46:52
  Eric H F Law: Mm-hmm.
• 46:53
  Loren Richmond Jr: two of us. a theologian or historical Christian figured you'd want to meet or
• 47:00
  Loren Richmond Jr: bring back to life.
• 47:08
  Eric H F Law: Martin Luther King Jr.
• 47:10
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm. What do you think history will remember from our current time and place?
• 47:21
  Eric H F Law: Ha ha ha. the we're in the the pit of the big divide.
• 47:32
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm.
• 47:33
  Eric H F Law: And and then history will remember the good Christian and their friends and other
• 47:40
  Eric H F Law: faithful people, not just Christian, but how we how we find our way out
• 47:47
  Eric H F Law: of there, you know. you know, so s you know so fill it with
• 47:54
  Eric H F Law: love. You know, to use further
• 48:01
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 48:02
  Eric H F Law: the analogy of the great pit that I talked about.
• 48:05
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah, yeah. What do you hope for the future of Christianity?
• 48:16
  Eric H F Law: Let the different people that c call themselves Christians really are able to listen
• 48:23
  Eric H F Law: to each other and instead of judging each other. you know, I don't understand
• 48:31
  Eric H F Law: the the Christian nationalism is actually a term people are claiming now in the
• 48:38
  Eric H F Law: US and in and I like to spe have a time to you know
• 48:46
  Eric H F Law: to sit down and say, hey, tell me what this is about.
• 48:54
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 48:56
  Eric H F Law: I'm willing to listen if you're willing to listen to me.
• 49:00
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 49:00
  Eric H F Law: Right? and I think by saying they're not Christian is not helpful. but by
• 49:06
  Eric H F Law: say so so there's a there's a Facebook post that says we're not targeting
• 49:12
  Eric H F Law: Christian, we're talking in Christian nationalism.
• 49:18
  Loren Richmond Jr: Hmm.
• 49:19
  Eric H F Law: and and and but then you know, but so people who believe in Christian
• 49:23
  Eric H F Law: nationalism, are they Christian?
• 49:28
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
• 49:29
  Eric H F Law: I mean those are the I mean, we really to have that qu conversation.
• 49:33
  Eric H F Law: That's been plaguing this country from the beginning, you know. and do we get
• 49:38
  Eric H F Law: rid of religion altogether, which we never did, right? And But to have this
• 49:43
  Eric H F Law: Christian to Christian dialogue for for fun at least from the progressive sides. I
• 49:48
  Eric H F Law: mean we
• 49:53
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 49:53
  Eric H F Law: we could be as guilty as as they say they say we are, you
• 49:55
  Eric H F Law: know,
• 49:58
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah, yeah.
• 50:00
  Eric H F Law: and judging people and but as you say, have a have a meaningful conversation
• 50:05
  Eric H F Law: with your barber, you know. I I Most of my students' parents when I
• 50:10
  Eric H F Law: was a campus pastor were pretty conservative.
• 50:16
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
• 50:17
  Eric H F Law: And they were afraid that I was gonna brainwash their kids.
• 50:20
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
• 50:22
  Eric H F Law: And then they would come to me and say, you're that loving liberal Because
• 50:24
  Eric H F Law: I never pushed
• 50:27
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 50:29
  Eric H F Law: my belief onto their kids, you know. And but but to be able to
• 50:35
  Eric H F Law: understand and and I think the mutual understand a pre understanding there there there
• 50:41
  Eric H F Law: has to be there's some common ground that we can stand on and and
• 50:47
  Eric H F Law: achieve some understanding and let the gospel speak from there. So
• 50:53
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm I'm already thinking about Eric how in some ways like
• 50:57
  Loren Richmond Jr: my relationship with the this barber has this opportunity to fit in these holy
• 51:01
  Loren Richmond Jr: currencies. You know,
• 51:05
  Eric H F Law: Mm-hmm.
• 51:06
  Loren Richmond Jr: there's this time and place, right? I I go on once a month on
• 51:10
  Loren Richmond Jr: Thursday and get my hair cut. I'm building a relationship. I I hope to
• 51:14
  Loren Richmond Jr: have the opportunity for for her to share it truthfully with with me, like
• 51:18
  Loren Richmond Jr: she already has shared about, you know, the tragic death of her son.
• 51:23
  Eric H F Law: Mm-hmm.
• 51:23
  Loren Richmond Jr: And her husband's hospitalization. I suppose the money right would be like my ability
• 51:27
  Loren Richmond Jr: to pay her for her.
• 51:31
  Eric H F Law: Mm-hmm. Yeah, you know, in terms of gracious leadership, we do train people in
• 51:34
  Eric H F Law: how to do that, how to
• 51:37
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 51:39
  Eric H F Law: how to listen and to say, I heard you say this about you
• 51:45
  Loren Richmond Jr: Hm.
• 51:45
  Eric H F Law: know, whether something I agree with or not is not the issue. To to
• 51:46
  Eric H F Law: really
• 51:47
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 51:49
  Eric H F Law: feed back to say, I heard you said that, is that right? You know,
• 51:51
  Eric H F Law: and and then
• 51:53
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 51:54
  Eric H F Law: you can still say, you know, I have a different experience.
• 51:58
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 51:58
  Eric H F Law: Would you like to hear it?
• 52:00
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 52:01
  Eric H F Law: And if the person says yes, you share it and then let the truth
• 52:03
  Eric H F Law: speak for itself, right?
• 52:06
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 52:07
  Eric H F Law: I might be totally wrong. I'm open to the to that, but but I
• 52:10
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 52:11
  Eric H F Law: but I am ab if I'm able to share my truth, my experience, and
• 52:15
  Eric H F Law: less before that I listen to the others and be able to clearly state
• 52:19
  Eric H F Law: I understand where you are. Right now my issue is I don't understand. I
• 52:23
  Eric H F Law: need
• 52:27
  Loren Richmond Jr: Hm.
• 52:28
  Eric H F Law: someone who is in that camp. Who is willing
• 52:30
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
• 52:30
  Eric H F Law: to be in the same room with me and tell me, help me understand
• 52:32
  Eric H F Law: this. You know,
• 52:35
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yeah.
• 52:36
  Eric H F Law: and and then and then and then I can say, would you like to
• 52:39
  Eric H F Law: h understand me, not to agree? And then let
• 52:43
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
• 52:44
  Eric H F Law: you know and and and let that take us where it needs to go.
• 52:47
  Eric H F Law: I think that's trusting the spirit on that.
• 52:51
  Loren Richmond Jr: I think it's a great d distinction you're making understanding versus agreeing.
• 52:57
  Eric H F Law: Mhm. And and what's happening is that the the fear exploiter is what I
• 53:01
  Eric H F Law: call them in my one of my book, the fear book. Yeah. Yeah. The
• 53:05
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, your Fear Not book, which I think we talked about back
• 53:07
  Loren Richmond Jr: then.
• 53:10
  Eric H F Law: fear exploiter continue to put us in boxes, or make us into puppets to
• 53:17
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yep.
• 53:19
  Eric H F Law: keep repeating that if you are this you must be all of this. If
• 53:23
  Eric H F Law: you're that you must be all of that and you had to hate each
• 53:27
  Eric H F Law: other. and we had to fight that. I think you know, it you know,
• 53:31
  Eric H F Law: th the d the danger, you know, like the Sunday's lectionary, you know, Jesus
• 53:36
  Eric H F Law: didn't come to bring peace, Jesus c said I came to bring the sword
• 53:40
  Eric H F Law: and son against father, father against sons and you know, and it's father's day,
• 53:44
  Eric H F Law: right? How do you preach that? And
• 53:49
  Loren Richmond Jr: Mm-hmm.
• 53:50
  Eric H F Law: the the dangerous interpretation is to say Jesus bring The sword so I am
• 53:54
  Eric H F Law: right and all the people, you know, who disagree with me is wrong, Jesus
• 53:58
  Eric H F Law: is on my side. The r
• 54:02
  Loren Richmond Jr: Wrong. Mm-hmm.
• 54:04
  Eric H F Law: true way to preach that is to say to say, yeah, we are already
• 54:07
  Eric H F Law: divided.
• 54:10
  Loren Richmond Jr: Hm.
• 54:12
  Eric H F Law: And people we are not at peace and be Jesus simply revealed the truth.
• 54:18
  Loren Richmond Jr: Hm.
• 54:19
  Eric H F Law: Okay, d no more pretending, right? And that we need to to to name
• 54:24
  Eric H F Law: the fear exploiter that seek to divide us. Okay. And a and address that
• 54:30
  Eric H F Law: and that's even more scary. That's what Jesus talked about. He brings the sword
• 54:35
  Eric H F Law: for that.
• 54:41
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah. Yeah.
• 54:42
  Eric H F Law: Okay, to to point it at at the at the at the at the
• 54:47
  Eric H F Law: fearmongers, the fear fear exploiter for their own gain, by maintaining the divisions that
• 54:53
  Eric H F Law: forcing us to to to to keep demonizing each other. You know, so so
• 54:58
  Eric H F Law: if I were preaching this Sunday, that's what I'll be
• 55:04
  Loren Richmond Jr: Well yeah.
• 55:06
  Eric H F Law: preaching.
• 55:07
  Loren Richmond Jr: Well I appreciate that. This is a great conversation. I really want to recommend
• 55:10
  Loren Richmond Jr: your work to folks. Share how they can connect with you. It looks like
• 55:13
  Loren Richmond Jr: the book is still in print, right? Still available.
• 55:17
  Eric H F Law: Mm-hmm.
• 55:18
  Loren Richmond Jr: Share your website, all that stuff.
• 55:21
  Eric H F Law: holy currency and and the two companion books, Holy Currency Exchange and Drawing on
• 55:26
  Eric H F Law: Holy Currencies are all in print. Drawing on Holy Currency is a comic book
• 55:32
  Eric H F Law: where you color and you have exerci there's fifty-two exercises you do that would
• 55:37
  Eric H F Law: show you how the currency works personally and in the community. So get those
• 55:43
  Eric H F Law: sets of three, and do it with the friends. you can gather a group
• 55:48
  Eric H F Law: of people to do the drawing book together. and then holy currency exchanges done
• 55:54
  Eric H F Law: in vignettes, short stories that you can read and digest and and discuss. So
• 55:59
  Eric H F Law: that's that's a good way to get going. my l I did it up
• 56:05
  Eric H F Law: I did fear not which is a revision of an old book. I think
• 56:10
  Eric H F Law: that's still relevant, you know, so
• 56:16
  Loren Richmond Jr: Yeah.
• 56:17
  Eric H F Law: that's a good discussion book. go to the kaleidoscope institute dot org k scopeinstitute
• 56:24
  Eric H F Law: dot org k scop institute dot org and you'll find opportunity to get training
• 56:31
  Eric H F Law: to get your gracious leadership training which is the key to mobilizing the holy
• 56:38
  Eric H F Law: currency. You get the skills and then you you begin to build relationship and
• 56:45
  Eric H F Law: discover truth and help your organization, your ministry to do that. and then from
• 56:52
  Eric H F Law: there in the website you can also make appointment to see me, half an
• 56:59
  Eric H F Law: hour to have conversation with me and that will be pretty easy to do.
• 57:06
  Loren Richmond Jr: Well, Eric, I really appreciate your time. I need to not let five years
• 57:10
  Loren Richmond Jr: ago again before I have you back on the podcast. But I appreciate your
• 57:14
  Loren Richmond Jr: wisdom and your insights. thank you so much. We always leave folks with a
• 57:18
  Loren Richmond Jr: word of peace. So may God's peace be with you.
• 57:22
  Eric H F Law: Thank you. Blessings.