Latest / Urantia Radio / James Webb Telescope Discovery with Guest Joel Garbon

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James Webb Telescope Discovery with Guest Joel Garbon · Urantia Radio

0:08
Welcome to the ranch Radio podcast.
0:09
I'm so glad to have Joel Garvin back and thank you so much for
0:13
joining us on the ranch Radio podcast.
0:15
How are you sir? Well, great, Jim.
0:17
Thanks for having me back on. It's always a pleasure to talk
0:20
to you. And we always are covering some
0:23
interesting topics here. But people like you and they
0:26
like our discussions about things and I know that you and I
0:29
have sort of that similar scientific approach sometimes.
0:34
But what do you what caught your I about this whole thing with
0:38
the James Webb Telescope and we can go into a little bit of
0:43
what, what the new reveal is, but what caught your eye about
0:46
it in the beginning. And are you, are you, are you
0:50
also a believer that the Big Bang is nothing more than a sort
0:56
of an atheistic approach? Describing the universe?
1:01
Well, for me, the big bang has always been very intellectually
1:06
unsatisfying, just the whole concept that, well, it all
1:11
sprang out of nothing. And then the question of what
1:15
came before the Big Bang explosion never gets addressed.
1:19
You know, I am a Scientist and I think it's important that we use
1:24
the rationale of science to try to explain our universe.
1:30
And, and the human Mission. But this is something that is
1:34
like the big elephant in the room, right?
1:37
What came before it, what came before it and can't we as human
1:43
beings which also you know it's important to remember that
1:46
scientists are human beings, aren't we allowed to ask these
1:50
bigger questions? Like could there be a mind and
1:54
intelligence behind the creation of the universe?
1:57
Does it have to just be about mathematics?
2:01
X and principles of physics. And sterile, natural laws.
2:06
Can't there really be a God that's deeply embedded as the
2:11
creator of the universe. And I think the answer is yes,
2:16
but why do we constrain ourselves?
2:18
I'm a scientist but I refuse to constrain myself to just the
2:23
scientific method. I think it's it's really
2:26
important is thinking human beings who have a mom And in a
2:31
spiritual endowment that we bring and integrate Spirit into
2:38
the discussion because it doesn't need to be divorced from
2:41
science. And I've been really, I think
2:44
fairly outspoken about that through much of my career.
2:48
And well I guess I'm one of quite a few who were labeled as
2:54
Mavericks. We do tend to challenge dogmas.
2:59
And this is, this is one of the dogmas.
3:01
The Big Bang Theory that I do love to challenge.
3:05
I think it really opens people's minds to bigger pictures Well,
3:10
we both know that the reaction, the enlightenment, the
3:15
enlightenment somehow freed, the shackles of organized religion.
3:20
In organized religion was was totally against the idea of a
3:26
natural evolving universe and I think that the enlightenment
3:31
took away from that, that there had to be what they call the
3:34
suckers Choice. It was one or the other, it
3:37
couldn't be both. And we've suffered because of it
3:40
because scientism today asserts that there is no Divine mind
3:45
that there couldn't be. It couldn't be explained and
3:48
therefore since we can't can't comprehend it, it doesn't exist.
3:52
The only thing that's exist is what we can show that exists
3:56
which is that the universe is made up of atomic particles and
4:00
we're now learning. I think that even atomic
4:03
particles aren't themselves solid objects.
4:07
So what makes them what? Them, their impetus, their
4:10
energy, their coordinated ability in their circular
4:15
motion. So, even in trying to attempt, a
4:18
materialistic, explanation of the universe scientists
4:22
themselves and will hear this, at the end of the program,
4:25
scientists themselves understand that something could come along
4:29
and completely refute that theory or that hypotheses.
4:34
And I think the James Webb Telescope is revealing that very
4:37
truth, which is at the The universe is a lot older, it's
4:40
not just 14 billion years old and that not everything came
4:44
from a singular moment. So I think the validation that I
4:50
that I can appreciate in this is that many people who would
4:53
otherwise be attracted to something like the ranch a book
4:57
or the idea of having a personal relationship with a deity.
5:00
Can't because science holds them back, it holds them hostage it
5:05
says you can't be a true scientist.
5:08
If Believe in non scientific ideas.
5:13
Yeah, that's a great Point um and that constraint those are
5:17
real Shackles On Us. Making progress not just in the
5:22
area of science but an area other areas as well and it
5:28
touches on this topic I know I had presented to you the idea
5:33
that it'd be great for us to weave in this question to our
5:36
discussion and that question is does Dogma interfere with the
5:41
pursuit of Truth. And I believe the short answer
5:44
is. It doesn't have to, we don't
5:48
have to allow our deeply held beliefs to interfere with the
5:54
pursuit of deeper Insight deeper truths.
5:59
And I think maybe maybe that's kind of like a little bit of a
6:03
springboard on why we might consider why the reluctance to
6:09
challenge these conventional theories.
6:12
You You know, if we look at just a defen are dictionary
6:16
definition of Dogma, you know, one good definition.
6:20
Is that a Dogma is a principle or a set of principles laid down
6:25
by an authority, has incontrovertible truth.
6:30
So it implies that, there's an authority in there.
6:33
Okay? And it's so that really comes
6:36
into play Because when we consider where the dogmas come
6:41
from and why, We tend to ascribe to them a lot of it revolves
6:46
around the authority. So a Dogma may be propagated by
6:50
an authority out of a sincere desire to share a pursue a
6:55
perceived truthful insight and maybe there by uplift the
7:00
society. And I think we're most of us
7:03
when we think about Dogma, we think about religion and
7:06
certainly there's some very, very deeply held religious
7:10
beliefs, that are true. True, or relatively true and
7:15
that are helpful to society. But now on the other hand, Dogma
7:19
may be propagated by an authority, as an instrument of
7:23
control and likely to advance hidden agendas.
7:29
Yeah, I think we got a lot of those in our MIT, where Dogma is
7:35
used as a control mechanism and I think they've been coming more
7:39
clearly into Focus for more and more people.
7:43
Recently I'll just use a few quick examples you know the
7:48
government propaganda of covid. Vaccines as safe and effective.
7:52
We have relentlessly heard that safe and effective that has
7:57
become a Dogma but it's clearly untrue for anyone who has, you
8:03
know, eyes to see and ears to hear and has a brain.
8:07
But yet that has been propagated will clearly there's an agenda
8:12
behind that. That other would be where we see
8:16
religious authorities that use Dogma to literally sell
8:20
salvation, right? Well, that's that's kind of a
8:24
gross Distortion of what religious truths should be
8:28
about. And another one that I think a
8:30
lot more people are getting clued into is, you know, this
8:34
scientific Dogma that you know, climate change is solely due to
8:40
greenhouse gas emissions. all right, and that is ringing less
8:45
and less true for those who like to investigate larger
8:50
possibilities, like, what the heck's happening on our star,
8:55
could that maybe have something to do with, why the Earth seems
8:59
to be warming, or people willing to look and examine that, that
9:04
there's a lot of material being sprayed into our skies
9:10
routinely, And that actual geoengineering is happening
9:17
right above us. Every day to influence our
9:21
weather. People want to look into that
9:24
boy. They're going to really have a
9:27
rude awakening, because that's something that's real and that's
9:30
been going on for a long time. I'll just leave that at that.
9:33
So, anyway, there's, you know, various dogmas.
9:38
They, you know, they occur in religion, they occur in science,
9:42
they are Her and politics, and in Social culture, you know,
9:46
even in social media. And and I would maintain that,
9:50
you know, each of us has dogmas. I certainly do.
9:57
I ascribe to certain dogmas Jim? I imagine that that you do as
10:02
well. I'll give a few of my own and
10:05
then I'll ask you to comment on maybe a few of your own gym if
10:09
you do. I would say some examples of My
10:12
own dogmatic beliefs, like in the arena of religion,
10:16
definitely would be God exists. Jesus is who he claimed to be,
10:23
there's life after death. I mean, those are kind of some
10:26
basic religious dogmas I have and in the science Arena, you
10:30
know, I believe the Earth is a sphere, I believe gravity is
10:35
real You know, in politics. I think that the probability of
10:42
a politician becoming corrupt increases with the number of
10:46
years and office. Inversely proportion, k
10:56
something I believe is true, is that work done?
11:00
Well, elevates a man's dignity and conversely when a neighbor
11:06
Man lives off the fruits of another person's work.
11:11
He destroys his dignity so men who are capable should not beg.
11:16
And so those are just some of my dogmas.
11:19
You probably have some of your own there.
11:22
I'm curious. Sure what would be a few of your
11:24
shoe? Well, I think you hit the nail
11:27
on the head, my biggest Dogma. If I subscribe to something
11:32
where I have a settled belief about it, which I think, Think
11:36
for me is the definition, it's just something that would be it
11:39
would be nearly impossible to shake.
11:40
My belief is in the authenticity of the Rancho book as a
11:44
revelation. Sometimes it contradicts my
11:47
Earthly Viewpoint. Because what if I'm wrong,
11:50
right? There's always that element of
11:52
Doubt but I think I've made enough of a not only an
11:57
emotional but an intellectual commitment to it that it would
12:01
be hard. You would have to disprove it at
12:03
this point. The proof for me is already
12:05
there it Self-revealing, it satisfies my intellectual
12:09
curiosity and doesn't compromise my intellectual Integrity.
12:14
So that's why I can be dogmatic about that.
12:17
In fact, the Dogma there is so profound that I wish everybody
12:21
else would be dogmatic about it too because I could see how it
12:25
could help other people to know for example that this isn't the
12:28
only life we have if you if you were told as a young child that
12:33
you are only going to go through 12 grades.
12:36
And then that was it. It was all over.
12:37
There's nothing else. How much effort would you put
12:40
into your education? Well, you wouldn't put much
12:43
because you would know that it's futile.
12:45
So a lot of people are walking around right now as we speak and
12:50
they're they're behaving as if everything is ultimately futile.
12:54
There is no afterlife, there is nothing else to behold.
12:58
People are dogmatic about that. People are dogmatic about the
13:02
fact that religion or specifically Christianity is Add
13:06
their dogmatic there anti-religious and the same way
13:09
that an atheist is dogmatic about his belief.
13:12
He believes that he is right and that there is no God and so he
13:17
is offended. He's in out when you get to the
13:19
point where you're offended that other people don't subscribe to
13:22
your behavior that's sociopathic.
13:25
And and so, you know, having said that I totally agree with
13:30
you there science has, you know, you asked a very important
13:33
question and you made a very State, a very important
13:35
statement and the reason the Dogma is dangerous where you you
13:40
have to have that little escape hatch, right?
13:43
Is for this. Yeah, the way the the
13:45
environment today in science in medicine and Healthcare, is that
13:50
people who go against the grain will be unfunded, they will be
13:57
cancelled, they will be removed. From those who are, for example,
14:02
in favor of climate change, you will not get a A sponsored or
14:07
funded or a research project funded if you come out against
14:11
questioning climate change, that's a fact.
14:14
It's the same with a lot of the doctors during the pandemic.
14:16
They were not allowed to prescribe therapy to patients,
14:22
who had covid until their oxygen level drop by believe below. 70.
14:27
That's, that's horrible to let somebody get that sick before.
14:31
You treat them in the, by then the cytokine storm is so out of
14:34
control. There's no way to save the guy
14:36
except to shove a bunch of tubes down his throat.
14:39
Nope, for the best and we created that environment from
14:43
Dogma, dr. Fauci, I'm sure he's incredible,
14:46
man. I'm sure he loves his dog.
14:48
I bet you. He's a nice as husband in the
14:50
world, but he suffers from Dogma, he was so dogmatic in his
14:55
approach. He was willing to shut down the
14:58
entire world to prove that he was correct.
15:01
So science isn't a fault. The scientist is a human.
15:06
And we're all humans, and we're all capable of failure.
15:09
In fact, failure is our middle name.
15:12
It is the it is, it is not, it's not the exception, it's the
15:15
rule, you have to work at it, you have to work at being a
15:19
human being, you have to work at being loyal, all these things
15:22
you have to work at because they're not inherently in us,
15:25
their achieved by the decisions. We make based on the principles
15:29
that we hold to be true. And in my example, I think I'm
15:33
going to be held accountable for what I do here.
15:35
So I better not Screw it up so and that's all I've got.
15:39
Yeah other than that I have no opinion on the matter.
15:43
That was really well spoken and you were really ringing my bell
15:49
and I'm sure for many other people too.
15:52
And you brought up several several key points here.
15:57
And one of those is really, you know, so why why do people
16:04
abandon The free-thinking Pursuit Of Truth and refuse to
16:09
challenge Dogma one word challenge their own.
16:12
Their own dog, must you brought up some of these things.
16:16
I'd like to peel that back a little more, you know, the fear
16:19
of ridicule and rejection and even persecution.
16:24
That's that's part of that the fear of loss of social or
16:29
professional status. You mentioned like the medical
16:32
doctors who've been afraid to speak out Out against the
16:37
obvious obfuscation of data and this wrong-minded propaganda
16:44
around the vaccines just it was which is actually destructive.
16:48
Not just wrong-minded the fear of loss of funding like you
16:52
brought up, which certainly happens in the scientific field
16:56
where scientists see that that attached a certain dogmas like
17:02
you know, climate change and and Big Bang Theory.
17:05
Like that. There's a gravy train of funding
17:09
attached to that, they don't want that to be disrupted in and
17:13
hurt their personal fortunes. And I would say, loss of funding
17:17
can also occur inside families, where there might be, you know,
17:22
children who who are kind of dependent on the parent.
17:25
And if they fall out a grease with the parent because now they
17:29
have a change in mind of some dogmatic thinking that the
17:33
parent might might have well, I'll maybe that threatens the,
17:37
you know, some of the gravy that flows to the child, even with
17:42
pastors like you, you certainly probably had some of the
17:46
experience when you've tried to introduce the ranch of book as
17:51
they consider is a considerable new Advanced and understanding
17:58
of religious truth, when you try to introduce that to pastors of
18:02
churches, you know, even though they may have Intellectual
18:06
horsepower and the actual personal desire to want to take
18:11
a look at it. They might be afraid that if
18:13
they do that, it's going to disrupt their career.
18:16
Okay. And then I really harsh reality.
18:19
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it is.
18:23
And I think in general, we see that, there's a risk of version,
18:27
there's this, you know, play it safe mentality.
18:30
That three thinking is risky and quite frankly, new insight It's
18:36
can be upsetting to one's worldview.
18:39
It really is. There's a risk and intellectual
18:43
risk here at can be kind of disorienting when you come upon
18:47
something, that makes a lot more sense than the tenants that you
18:52
may have held to that point in time.
18:55
And then all sudden you get this as big explosion in here.
19:00
Your mind about. Whoa, what did I just come upon
19:03
here? This this makes a lot more
19:05
sense. To me.
19:07
Also, I think that that in in general, we're seeing a lot of
19:10
laziness, a lot of intellectual laziness a reluctance, to invest
19:16
the time to read and research and contemplate in disgust with
19:20
other people, these big ideas and I and then I would say, kind
19:24
of like the the last reason, you know why people might be
19:28
reluctant to, to, to challenge. Dogma is a lack of humility.
19:35
And just a reluctance to admit their limited knowledge, limited
19:39
understanding or that they perhaps made error in judgment,
19:44
and we all do this. You know, we all have some
19:47
reluctance, you know, to admit that we don't know at all.
19:51
No one likes to admit that they've been mistaken, you know,
19:55
but there's a degree of maturity that has to come into play here.
20:00
And you talked about it is human, you know, we're human.
20:04
We have to bring the human Packed into this big picture
20:08
discussion. You know, humans are not
20:12
perfect. We make mistakes we fail and
20:16
it's how we grow and so we can't be afraid to acknowledge that.
20:21
Hey, we don't know it all and that we make mistakes in that
20:25
we're capable of learning something.
20:28
That is more true relatively that provides insights that are
20:34
extremely valuable. Not just to our understanding
20:37
but how we navigate this world individually and collectively.
20:42
Well on the in the dogmatic world it is the intellectual
20:47
Conformity. That is the easiest path and
20:50
that explains why? Usually a majority of the people
20:54
will take the easiest path and it's in all Realms of life.
20:58
It's easier to let somebody else make the decision because then
21:01
you're excused from being responsible for it.
21:04
If it turns out to be an incorrect decision.
21:07
So, for example, what you were saying about climate change?
21:09
I think I'm old enough to remember when the climate It was
21:13
about the air, the water, and the land, and not polluting and
21:17
and making it so that those three areas would remain clean.
21:21
That was a very pure Noble and, and, and well-focused idea.
21:27
But then sprang into this climate crisis.
21:30
And the the interesting need to count carbon and we have this
21:36
fascination with counting things and measuring things and, and,
21:40
and pumping data into computers. And having it tell us What's
21:43
going to happen? It's sort of like this this
21:45
belief in the Oracle, right? If we bring the Oracle enough
21:48
information than the Oracle will tell us what to do well behind
21:52
the Oracle are a few very deceptive people and they have
21:55
figured out a way to basically instill fear into people, fear
22:01
is a great motivator and I think the coronavirus pandemic really
22:05
exposed how fearful people can be and how easy it is to get
22:09
them to do things when they are. In fact, fearful Their own
22:13
safety. I have relatives that don't talk
22:15
to each other anymore because one doesn't want to get it
22:18
covid. Vaccine and the other already
22:20
did even though the one that got the vaccine is already had
22:23
covid. And the one that had no vaccine
22:26
got covid, who do you think has the better immune system?
22:28
Yes, yeah, yeah. But that's the world were living
22:33
in today right now. You know, we got people that are
22:35
just at odds with each other. So there is a lot there.
22:41
And you know, there is good Dogma, I think there's good
22:44
Dogma. If you have Dogma that you
22:47
believe that family is the most important thing in Civilization,
22:51
that's good dogma. And you're going to fight to
22:53
make that work and it is a fundamental I think a
22:56
fundamental provable statement which is that family is at the
23:01
core of civilization without the family.
23:04
Without the stability of the family, everything else falls
23:08
apart and in the orange book, unlike Can many religions which
23:13
does not not pay a lot of attention to the family, maybe
23:15
the Bible does, but at the root of it, barrage.
23:20
The institution of marriage is the great civilization civilizer
23:24
of humanity, and it's now under a frontal attack and part of
23:29
that is by removing religion and Faith.
23:32
It makes it much easier to transform this.
23:36
The person from a member of a family to a member of a state.
23:42
And I want to let that hang for a little while, because that's,
23:44
I think the dichotomy that were in religion is like, for
23:49
example, my wife was watching something last night.
23:51
It was a gym and something about Jim Baker, Jim Baker, I mean,
23:56
that's the guy from the 70s and I'm thinking what is Netflix
23:59
doing now with this guy? Jim Bakker, 20 years later.
24:02
How is that even relevant? Well, it's relevant because it
24:05
helps build up The Stereotype that people who are religious
24:09
are stupid or they're weak. Yeah right.
24:13
Yes. So they keep that or predatory?
24:15
Yeah. Yeah.
24:15
Or predatory. They canceled some other.
24:19
I can't remember what it was but it was some college canceled.
24:25
It was something to do with Father's Day or something.
24:29
It had something that was patriarchal and they just
24:32
cancelled it. They said we can't do that
24:33
anymore. This it if it highlights the dad
24:36
not all people have Dad's you know it's like okay so that's
24:40
what we're headed anyway. But yeah.
24:41
No, I do want to share this with you before.
24:44
You know, we go on to our next topic but I'm reading a really
24:47
good book called the psychology of totalitarianism and I think I
24:53
told you the name of the guy Joel he is, I think he might be
24:59
a you beer, you know, I said, okay.
25:02
Because it's it reads just like it, it has a lot of parallels to
25:09
paper 195 and the chap. Materialism.
25:12
So go read it and get the book if you can but it kind of lends
25:16
to what you were saying earlier about.
25:18
Why do people it seems to me that there are three kinds of
25:22
people in society. There are the kinds of people
25:25
who just crave security and they want, they want to be taken care
25:29
of and they'll go along with whatever the authorities what
25:33
you were talking about dogma and authority and and whoever's in
25:37
charge. They trust those those people
25:40
because again they don't want to be Held responsible it's easier
25:43
just to agree. Then you have another subset of
25:45
people. Say 30 percent who don't
25:48
necessarily agree with the The Authority but they don't want to
25:52
make waves and they don't want to be singled out and they're
25:55
conformist but they're not blindly following.
25:58
They just would prefer not to be, you know, going against the
26:01
grain then you have that other twenty to thirty percent who are
26:06
probably like you and me, and a lot of people who read the
26:08
Urantia book, where the outliers, where the The question
26:12
authority. We're the ones that ask the
26:14
second question. Well, how come you know, and
26:18
that's I think the greatest strength of those people is that
26:21
they're not ever going to give in to this Mass formation
26:24
psychosis. You know that dr.
26:26
Robert Malone talked about. Yeah you know.
26:29
Yeah we are always going to be. Let me tell you something.
26:34
I the Arab people could free so many people from this Mass
26:37
formation hypnosis. So we hear about because it
26:40
would This is why we go back to the James Webb Telescope.
26:44
The James Webb. Telescope tells us that the Big
26:48
Bang isn't true. What?
26:51
What are the implications of that?
26:53
Well, it must mean that the Universe has purpose.
26:58
It's infinite, it can't. You can't have all of this order
27:03
and disorder, unless there's something behind it.
27:06
Something would have to be in charge, whether it's the
27:10
unqualified. Absolute Loot, whether it's, you
27:13
know, God the Father God, the son, and God the spirit,
27:17
probably it's the same, it to me, it's all the same, you know?
27:21
And so, I just want to sort of bring that to the table.
27:24
How do we get people to to be freed from the shackles of
27:29
materialism? Yeah you know I think that when
27:35
we ask that question no does Dogma interfere with the pursuit
27:39
of Truth. And we look at we look at that
27:45
question, very personally, like you told you told a personal
27:49
story, you know, I'll share a personal story.
27:54
You know that reflects it's really hard to challenge our,
27:58
our personal belief systems and continue to grow, be be willing
28:04
to, to examine and, and, and maybe change our belief system
28:11
in the You have new information, and here's an example here.
28:15
Okay? So do you Rancho book?
28:17
I've been studying it since 2005, you know, found it
28:21
extremely compelling, it answers, a lot of questions, and
28:25
I believe it was not authored by humans, okay?
28:29
And, and that's consistent with what it states.
28:32
Now, I have a very dear friend of mine Who is skeptical of the
28:38
Urantia book? Hester has not read the book is
28:42
read, maybe 10% but also has has invested a lot of time in
28:51
Reading what Skeptics of the Urantia book had to say about
28:55
it. Particularly Martin Gardner who
28:58
I know Jim your you would be familiar Martin Gardner and his
29:03
book that he had written that attempt at the debunk.
29:07
The Rancher book claimed that it was authored by Celestial
29:10
beings. Well, this dear friend of mine,
29:15
in a well-meaning desire for me to not be duped for lack of a
29:25
better word, really challenged me to read gardeners book and I
29:32
felt some internal reluctance at first to read the book is 440
29:36
page book and I thought well you know maybe this is just going to
29:40
be a waste of my time because you know, I felt You very firm
29:46
in my conviction. That the Urantia book is, you
29:51
know, is authored by Celestial beings.
29:52
But, but I agreed to do this. I agreed that I would read the
29:56
book and I did, in fact, I just finished it last week after
29:59
after several weeks of reading, and it was a long read and, you
30:05
know, but I learned a lot, you know, I learned a lot about the
30:12
deficiencies for one thing. In Gardner's logic because you
30:18
know he argues certain points quite reasonably but he also has
30:24
flaws in his logic and other areas and totally ignores some
30:31
real important aspects. Can you give any example rent?
30:35
Yeah, yeah. So here's here's I would say
30:43
some of the most, the most obvious logic deficiency that
30:49
came to me. He is really, I say, nearly
30:53
obsessed with the proposition, that Sadler, William, Sadler,
31:02
Did Heavy editing of the Rancher material and and his position is
31:09
that Sadler likely added a number of Sadler's own personal
31:15
positions or philosophy into the material that that he at least
31:19
did that. Now, what's interesting is that
31:24
Gardener clearly has a very high regard for Sadler, he really
31:31
Notes Adler's extraordinary intelligence.
31:36
He was a prolific writer and lecturer.
31:41
He does not at all doubt Sadler's honesty and sincerity
31:48
but yet somehow thinks that despite you know holding Sadler
31:53
up as this very sincere honest intelligent Discerning man that
31:58
he then basically a saying that Sadler's a plagiarist and abroad
32:05
and was deceptive. That is really inconsistent
32:08
logic. Now in his near-obsession was
32:13
Sadler and and in saying, okay, here's all these parallelisms in
32:20
the Urantia book with a lot of Sadler's own writings, which
32:26
indeed is true. You can when you examine the All
32:30
isms between what is in the Urantia book and many other
32:35
books, whether you want to consider them the human Source
32:41
materials that the Rancher book claims out rights as they drew
32:45
from a number of different human sources of information.
32:49
Sadler, likely in a lot of his writings was likely a source of
32:55
some of that material as well, but even if you just took
32:58
Gardner's position, That that these were Sadler's own
33:05
insertions into the Rancho book, as a form of editing and getting
33:11
his own personal view across what Garden or ignores.
33:15
Totally is all of the unique, totally unique material that's
33:22
in the Urantia book, that you can't find anywhere else.
33:26
And and that comprises a, an enormous volume of this 2000
33:34
page book is totally unique information, but yet he doesn't
33:39
comment on that, and I find that intellectually dishonest, okay?
33:45
He focuses on one area where he thinks he can make a good
33:50
position for his, his debunking goal.
33:56
Judy Punk and discredit the Rancho book, but, but in doing
34:01
that, he's totally ignoring all of these amazing insights.
34:06
And even some scientific predictions that are in there,
34:11
not to mention, just the beautiful and coherent
34:17
philosophical. Information.
34:20
That's in the ranch of book. He just ignores all of that and
34:26
to me that just rings as really intellectually dishonest.
34:32
Yeah. Like and I've heard the
34:34
criticism is he went in without an open mind and made the
34:38
assessment, that it was a debunker bubble and then just
34:42
proceeded there with. I would also say it's curious
34:45
curious that it would take him 440 pages to make his Point.
34:50
Because if it was that easy to debunk, it could have done it
34:53
into 20, you know. So he went to Great Lengths to,
34:57
to attempt it. I agree with you.
34:59
I think the the fact that it shows up in the SEO when you do
35:05
a Google search on the ranch, a book, and Martin, Gardner's book
35:08
shows up typically in the first group of, you know, pages and
35:12
links. Yeah, it is.
35:14
It is a, it is unfortunate because I think a lot of people
35:17
get their first impressions. I know I know.
35:19
Several in my own life, who did just what you said.
35:22
They heard me talk about it. They went looked online and they
35:26
came back with an unfavorable opinion.
35:28
And I said, what did you actually read the book?
35:30
Know. So, okay.
35:32
Well, you know, that's a winding process if that's how casual you
35:36
are about. Something that could potentially
35:39
be something as Grand as the Urantia book says.
35:42
And you're not even willing to pick it up and spend five
35:44
minutes. That's when I learned a long
35:46
time ago that most people don't really read the Bible, most
35:49
Don't really read the book of Mormon unless they go to church
35:52
and the priest says, okay open up to page this.
35:55
And this most people don't even know why they believe and what
35:59
they believe in my opinion because they're basically just
36:02
care. It's either evolutionary
36:04
customary. But you know, I would say, less
36:07
than 10% of people. Typically will really take the
36:10
time to get to know what their religion is all about.
36:14
So that's just my assessment. Yeah, and I think that that's
36:18
part of that earlier point. About an intellectual laziness.
36:21
So you know, a reluctance to invest the time to read research
36:25
contemplate and discuss. You know, and I brought up my
36:29
personal example there because you know this this is something
36:34
where, you know, I had to make a pretty sizable effort to read
36:41
this book that I could have just dismissed, you know, the
36:45
gardener book and speaking about.
36:47
Yeah. But yet I did I did it.
36:49
Did it because of friend, a dear friend challenged me to do this.
36:54
Hoping that it would kind of burst my bubble about the
36:56
Urantia books, often tisza T, you know?
37:00
But I did it and so now, I'm like, okay, so now I not only
37:05
have read that your aunt, your book in certainly had discussed
37:09
it with many people discuss the book, but now, I've also read
37:14
the book of the probably the most renowned critic and
37:18
skeptic. The Rancher book.
37:20
So, I've got that in that full information.
37:23
So, now, isn't it fair to say that?
37:25
I have a more rounded understanding of both sides,
37:31
just like you brought up before that, you know, why is it that
37:35
so many Christians who are, you know, in the conventional, you
37:40
know, churches and and they have perhaps a good grasp or maybe a
37:47
moderate grasp of the biblical. But yet, they're afraid to even
37:52
examine the Urantia book. Okay.
37:55
But is it wouldn't it be fair to say they would have a much more
37:58
rounded perspective and understanding of all sides if
38:02
they were to read both because one of the things that I see
38:07
with your Ranch, your book readers is many.
38:12
If not, most of them are pretty strongly familiar with the
38:15
Bible. Yeah.
38:17
And and so they Have the benefit of having been exposed to a much
38:24
wider range of information from which to to assess what makes
38:30
the most sense about our universe about the best way to
38:36
navigate human life too. And to contribute to our society
38:41
and to, to learn about God, and our relationship to the Creator
38:46
and and our destiny. You know, I think when the Or
38:50
you are open to examining all sides.
38:54
Whether as a religionists weather, just a citizen go on
38:59
about his business or a scientist or a politician or
39:02
whatever. You are always better served by
39:06
exposing yourself to the broader range of information.
39:11
I think that's being fair-minded, and I think it's
39:14
being mature and I would love to see more maturity in Our
39:19
society's approach to, to information and wisdom and
39:25
understand. Yeah.
39:27
And I think so, and I agree with you and I think the way it's
39:30
going to happen is not by, you know, they're the earlier
39:34
approach I think was one of the earlier approaches of the
39:37
Urantia book was to give it to people and just have them read
39:40
it and I've tried that and it's completely ineffective,
39:44
completely, I bought the book for a dozen family members
39:49
friends, Over the years, they jumped, you know, I'm even said,
39:53
start here or start there and they read it, and they don't get
39:56
back to me. I gave it to my daughter, she
39:59
had in her car for six months drove around with a book, and I
40:07
will give it to your boyfriend and he, and he had it for a
40:10
while. He actually tried to read it.
40:12
He gave it back to me and says, I don't understand it.
40:16
So it, it takes a curious mind. And I think you've got to want
40:21
it. You've got to be thirsting for
40:23
it. It's just like anything else.
40:24
So our only method really is to do what we're doing, which is to
40:28
share it when we can wet people's appetite.
40:31
Like Jesus said, don't hit him over the head with it.
40:34
Find out good. Go to their level find out.
40:36
What would entry exam if they seem so spiritually longing or
40:41
spiritually frustrated or depressed?
40:45
You know, hey, if I might have something for you might make you
40:48
feel better. So Mike That.
40:51
But, you know, it's going to happen.
40:52
It's eventually so many people that I've talked to Joel.
40:56
Recently, have expressed some so much optimism that we're going
41:01
to get through this horrible, horrible, secular istic,
41:05
ideological struggle, that we find ourselves in more much more
41:08
pronounced in the last five years than it has in my
41:11
lifetime. And I think you'd agree with
41:13
that. So, but I only but yeah, I do
41:16
hope it's the case. Jim, I hope that that really is
41:18
the case. Yeah.
41:20
So what are you working on? Now, anything interesting in the
41:22
Rancho realm. I know you, you know, we've
41:25
still got your your wonderful PDF on my website.
41:28
The Joel Garbin presentation that you did to a group of all
41:32
people ufologist. I think it's still up there.
41:35
And are you doing? Are you involved in anything?
41:38
Are you going to any conferences?
41:40
Have you been back from anything?
41:41
Anything interesting in your world?
41:45
Well, I have have not yet attended a conference, it's
41:49
something that I would I would like to do.
41:52
I was I had given some thought to the the Melchizedek oriented
41:58
conference that was just a couple months ago would have
42:03
enjoyed that but just dinner didn't work out in the schedule.
42:07
More of what I've been. Thinking about is how to assist
42:17
with the problem that the young men in our society or having
42:23
with this General abandonment of religion and how that has
42:31
resulted in so much nihilism self-destructive behaviors.
42:38
That are really harming you know that Demographic of our society.
42:43
The young men on been given more thought to how the, the, the
42:49
teachings into your Rancho book. Could help to uplift the
42:55
understanding of young men and help them to re-engage in
43:02
curiosity about reality and light and what is behind all of
43:09
this, you know, start to To ask the big questions, you know
43:14
about, you know, where did it all spring from?
43:17
Is there a Creator? If so what was the mechanism is
43:21
there assistance to us? Is there a presence with us that
43:27
comes from that Divine author? And of course, you know, the
43:32
ranch book has a lot to say about that about a divine
43:35
presence with us, right? Yeah.
43:38
Who have young, man. Were 22.
43:41
Have this as a tool as a guide book and I'm not suggesting as
43:46
a, as a dogmatic Authority or anything like that, because I
43:49
think there's there's a real resistance to hearing anything
43:53
like that because the young men already have pushed away, you
43:56
know, most all of the conventional, you know, religion
44:00
in the form of churches and authorities and and all that
44:03
kind of thing. So so I've been given more
44:06
thought to how can, how can I perhaps Have a an attractive
44:15
open discourse, with intellectually curious young men
44:20
to have them consider another way.
44:26
And I do think the time is right, where there is a real
44:30
need for a revelation of Greater truth that the young men can
44:37
assimilate. And now I'm, I'm single Out the
44:41
young man because I am a man myself and I, you know, women
44:48
have a lot of their issues, the young women certainly have their
44:51
issues but I'm not I'm not a woman, I certainly have
44:56
daughters and granddaughters. So I'm immersed in the world of
45:00
women, but but my focus is more appropriately on a young man cuz
45:04
I can mentor young men because I know the experiences that young
45:08
men have to go through in order to Become a man.
45:11
And to become you do mature and actually contribute to society.
45:16
I have something to say about that private grind it to figure
45:19
out how to how to weave the ranch book into that.
45:22
I'm hoping now that the the covid craziness is finally
45:26
seeming to subside that maybe I can start to set up some type of
45:33
of forum or something like that to to at least start to
45:38
experiment with this. This concept with young men.
45:43
Yeah, you know, reminds me of the Boy Scouts.
45:46
You remember remember that organization and then it became
45:50
completely politicized and it destroyed it but you know, the
45:53
Boy Scouts and organizations like that boys and girls club
45:56
today do a lot towards grabbing some of those especially the
46:00
at-risk youth. And and in my limited
46:04
involvement with them. I find that those organizations
46:08
can be life-changing and if you can Change, you know, just one
46:12
or two lives, you know, that that's a miracle.
46:15
So I wish you well in that endeavor.
46:17
And I am convinced that you will have no trouble finding a spot
46:22
to do. What you want to do there?
46:23
That sounds wonderful. Thanks.
46:25
Yeah. Well, this is a few minutes to
46:31
look, go back to the James Webb, you know, Revelation and its
46:36
relation to the big bang, you know, you know, religious
46:40
Scientific and cultural progress is generally made by
46:45
free-thinking. Okay.
46:47
And not by dogmatism, you know we look at Jesus himself,
46:52
certainly there was a free-thinking man.
46:56
And you know, it's it's interesting when we consider
47:02
progress and even with the original cast of say about
47:04
progress, you know we we know that progress is slow when it
47:10
Hers incrementally, you know and and generally the ranch of book
47:17
seems to feel their seems to express that slow incremental
47:22
progress is appropriate and it avoids big disruptions to
47:27
society. Now that doesn't feel very
47:30
satisfying for those of us who tend to be Maverick thinkers and
47:37
in are very open to new information.
47:41
In that we are willing to abandon our own dogmas.
47:46
In the face of information that makes more sense to us.
47:51
But I would also point out that the big advancements, the big
47:54
leaps forward, those do indeed come from Bold and Maverick
47:59
thinking that is unafraid to challenge dogma.
48:04
And there's big rewards that can come from that, but it occurs at
48:07
substantial risk, you know, Jesus was big.
48:10
And bold and free thinking, and he took enormous risks.
48:16
But they were huge rewards that came out of that, you know, he
48:20
challenged Dogma, he challenged Authority, you know, he, he was,
48:25
he was unafraid to face what became, you know, rejection and
48:32
ridicule, and even physical persecution to the death.
48:37
But yet the huge rewards that came out of that.
48:41
You know, part of our challenge in discernment.
48:46
Is where do we support the incremental ism?
48:52
Where do we support the big bold?
48:56
Maverick moves, you know, because I believe that there's
49:01
there's a blend. There's an appropriate blend
49:03
between those two. Especially right now, we are in
49:08
these pivotal times and I think we all sense it.
49:12
We may not be able to quite put our finger on it.
49:15
You and I and certainly others who you talk to have been trying
49:19
to to to figure out, okay, what is You know, what's coming out,
49:25
how right? We navigate this?
49:28
These are Big important questions.
49:31
So I wanted to just kind of toss that out there before we just
49:36
kind of round things up with with, you know, stepping back to
49:40
the Big Bang Theory here Jam. So, do you have any any
49:45
thoughts? Yeah, sure for mentalism versus
49:48
a big, big moves. Well, the, the James Webb
49:50
Telescope is a metaphor, too. Two, because think of what it's
49:53
doing. We're applying all of our
49:55
technology to open our eyes to reality around us.
50:00
And we're seeing things now that we've never experienced before,
50:03
and we're having to Grapple with things that our ancestors, never
50:07
even dreamed of and, and the Enlightenment.
50:12
What I'm getting is a general sense of disenchantment, we put
50:16
all of our faith in Our Hope and our trust in people who told us
50:21
that this was The Age of Reason and they were going to take care
50:24
of us and they were going to fix all these problems and you look
50:28
around and it just ain't so, it ain't, it ain't it.
50:32
There are so many things that are broken and, and, and staying
50:36
on a spiritual Direction here and not getting political.
50:41
People are upset and they're anxious.
50:44
And, and it's unfortunate that there are Mechanisms that will
50:49
take advantage of that anxiousness and that fear that
50:52
people have and use it to try to control their behavior or just
50:56
to control things period. But despite all of that, this is
51:01
the, the miracle, the spite out of, they're going to lose their
51:06
going to lose because that's not the way there's an old saying
51:10
Joel. Life is what happens to you when
51:12
you're busy making plans. The the dictates of man are
51:16
never going to over Ride the progress of God, we will get
51:21
through this. The importance is for us to push
51:24
back against that which we know is wrong or that we know is
51:27
unhealthy or though we know takes away their free will of
51:31
human beings. We were meant to be free.
51:34
We were endowed by our creator to have the ability to make
51:37
choices moral choices. And so, I think, you know, tell
51:43
you, I've talked to a few people who think the end of the world
51:45
is coming. They're predicting.
51:47
No, I've talked on the show about the cross and the
51:50
intersectionality of the crosses and the solar eclipse, it's
51:53
going to, you know, the transpire, are we in a period of
51:56
tribulation? There's all these things going
51:59
on and what it tells me is that there is something going on,
52:02
can't put our finger on it, but it was the same way During the
52:05
period of Jesus time. If you think about it, you had
52:09
all these conflicting political forces, these religious forces.
52:13
So something exciting is going to happen and I have faith in
52:17
the process. So, That's what tempers me from
52:20
getting too anxious and yeah you know that's that's where I well
52:24
find my refuge. Yeah well stated certainly
52:29
there's an acceleration that's occurring right now and there's
52:34
tension like you said the birth pangs.
52:37
Well when it comes closer to the delivery of something totally
52:41
new as in child from the mother's womb, those
52:45
contractions, get closer and closer.
52:48
More through our intent. Yeah, and we seem to be in that
52:52
type of period coming back to the Big Bang Theory and why I
52:59
forwarded you what I did on this.
53:03
This commentary by a researcher named Eric learner little bit
53:09
about Eric. I Came Upon Eric learner,
53:12
probably about 10 years ago when I was running a non-profit.
53:18
It called the new energy movement that focuses on the
53:23
Breakthrough Energy Technologies.
53:26
Eric learner is a plasma physicist.
53:30
Who has been investigating a type of breakthrough energy
53:35
technology that is is Fusion based on fact, he calls it Focus
53:42
fusion and it uses high-energy plasmas to cause a fusion
53:50
reaction between hydrogen atoms and Boron atoms to, to produce
53:58
enormous amounts of energy. Doubt, harmful radiation.
54:02
So it's doing some of the things that are analogous to what
54:07
happens inside a star where a star produces enormous amounts
54:14
of energy from the fusion of hydrogen and and with the
54:20
byproduct being primarily helium.
54:24
So he's a brilliant man, brilliant researcher, he also
54:30
Also was the author of a book called The Big Bang never
54:34
happened and in his understanding of plasma and his
54:40
own theories about that. The Universe largely is, is
54:47
comprised of plasma and in him, you know, just kind of his own
54:54
observations of the research that's out there that has been
54:58
gathered by astronomers. The astrophysicists, you know,
55:02
he became convinced you know, decades ago, that the Big Bang
55:06
Theory is not supported by the observations and by the data.
55:11
Well when the these recent images from the James Webb Space
55:17
Telescope came out in July Eric just a few weeks ago, released
55:25
this article that said hey folks, These images are so
55:33
highly, disruptive to The Big Bang Theory that many of the
55:40
leading theoretical, physicists and cosmologists are having near
55:44
panic attacks, because it is totally disrupting their life's
55:50
research. It which has been all about
55:54
being advocates for Big Bang Theory and and he references,
56:00
you know, several different researchers and and in their own
56:05
words saying, you know, how how they can't sleep at night.
56:09
Yeah, I think they're wondering if they've wasted their careers
56:14
just following a total fantasy. And that's right.
56:19
I said it really interesting relatively short article that he
56:23
wrote and, you know, one of the one of the threads that led from
56:30
that for me was I kind of did a little more investigation and I
56:36
found some of the videos and commentary by one of the leading
56:43
us theoretical physicist and cosmologist, his name is Paul
56:47
Stine Heart and Paul is very high-profile.
56:51
He's the Albert Einstein professor in science at
56:55
Princeton University. Well, Paul steinhardt, he had
56:58
been one of the leading Advocates of Big Bang Theory and
57:02
then last year he totally disrupted that whole scene when
57:08
he gave a presentation that said, we must abandon Big Bang
57:13
Theory because it just is meaningless.
57:17
No, really. And he has come to Advocate.
57:22
What has come to be known as the big bounce Theory, not Big Bang
57:27
Theory, but the big bounce Theory, it entails, Universal
57:33
expansion, and then contraction, right?
57:38
That sound familiar. Of course operation work.
57:41
Yeah. Part of the big bounce Theory.
57:44
It includes the possibility of a Goal expansion and contraction
57:51
of the universe in space itself. Well, guess what, folks that is
57:57
really analogous to what the Urantia book says about space
58:02
respiration that there is a cycle of universe expansion and
58:08
contraction not a big bang. Okay but this very beautiful you
58:15
know, natural And consistent cycle of it's a supposedly in
58:21
the your answer book. It's a 2 billion year, cycle
58:25
billion years of expansion followed by a billion years, a
58:29
contraction and it's well articulated in the Urantia book
58:35
but to see here is yeah, probably if, you know, if not
58:41
the leading theoretical physicists in the u.s. certainly
58:46
one of them. just saying big bang out the door, big bounce in
58:52
the door and it's just startling and it's very disruptive and
58:57
unsettling to so many of these hundreds or perhaps thousands of
59:02
brilliantly intelligent scientists who are now wondering
59:08
if their whole livelihood and their funding Is going to be
59:14
coming to an end, but this is why you're not really hearing
59:18
anything about this because it's, it's so unsettling and so
59:23
disrupted, they don't want the media to talk about is now, I
59:27
think it's, I think it's wonderful.
59:29
I've been looking forward to this for a long time, like you.
59:33
When I was young, it just didn't make sense and they kept moving
59:37
the number back. And I thought, well, you know,
59:39
this was even before I started reading, the Urantia book, it's
59:42
just too. Seem right.
59:43
And then when they started layering, everything was based
59:47
on one principle idea, which is the universe came into existence
59:50
on its own and it was 14 billion years ago because that's as far
59:55
back as we can see. And that premise alone, just it
59:58
was not intellectually in my opinion, intellectually,
1:00:02
satisfying. So and I think that's a good
1:00:04
place to end it. I think it's great that it's
1:00:06
happening and maybe the next time we talk will get more, you
1:00:10
know, maybe they'll be more articles about it, that we can.
1:00:13
Talk about, but it's definitely going to shake up the
1:00:16
astronomical community and it's going to force his to
1:00:20
re-evaluate all the way going back to Einstein.
1:00:22
And his general theory of relativity which brings to mind
1:00:26
that that felt that wonderfully clever quote in the ranch a book
1:00:31
where the author say something, akin to don't let your dabbling
1:00:35
is room with relativity confuse you thank.
1:00:39
Thank you. Thank you for having me on.
1:00:41
This is been a really fun. And stimulating conversation and
1:00:45
I think an important and relevant one.
1:00:48
So just thank you again brother. It's always a joy to talk to you
1:00:52
you to and Joel Garvin who has been on go back and listen to
1:00:56
some of the earlier podcast. They're absolutely wonderful to.
1:00:59
And we thank you and we'll talk to you again real soon.
1:01:01
We thought we'd start with the questioning, the mother of all
1:01:05
theories. The Big Bang science is very
1:01:08
own. Genesis story 1:1 in the
1:01:11
beginning. There was an enormous band.
1:01:34
Now, of course, like any physical Theory.
1:01:38
I would have guard the Big Bang as being provisional tomorrow.
1:01:43
That's even yesterday. Know something could come up
1:01:47
invalidate. We also have to explain what
1:01:54
gave those initial conditions, what gave the Big Bang itself.
1:01:58
So in, in that sense, I would say that our standard model of
1:02:02
cosmology, although correct in in a certain regime, it's an
1:02:06
incomplete Theory.