Latest / the Unvarnished Edit / Episode 17: Faith and Friction: Navigating Religious Trauma and Personal Beliefs (Spirituality 2 of 4)

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Episode 17: Faith and Friction: Navigating Religious Trauma and Personal Beliefs (Spirituality 2 of 4) · the Unvarnished Edit

0:00
Welcome to season two, episode five of The Unvarnished Edit, where two friends talk about what it's actually like to live an adversity-filled life.
0:08
Be prepared to laugh, possibly cry, and swear along with us.
0:12
This is Angie, and today's episode is the second in our spirituality arc with our guest, Brandi, where we discuss religious trauma and our quest for spirituality.
This topic can be very sensitive, so please, as always, take care of yourself as you listen.
0:28
We hope you enjoy.
Good morning.
Hi, how are you? I'm good.
How are you? Good.
you excited for today's episode? Oh, no.
I'm excited for our guest.
Oh, me The topic, the topic I feel might be treacherous, but let's, Yeah.
let's dive in.
Yeah.
No, seriously, me too.
So for, for y'all that are listening, our last week we had, um, Jessica Flowers, and we talked about accessing joy and what that looked like.
And honestly, if you've not listened to it, we had so much fun I know.
and, as it ended, we hopped into our email thread and we started sharing pictures of some of the things that we had talked about in the episode that we'll share when the episode airs, but it was really fun to, like, continue the conversation and be like, "Oh yeah, look at my rainbow that's just for me that makes me so happy."
So yeah, it was great Yeah.
No, it was a great episode, especially if you, kind of struggle with joy.
And now it feels like we kind of maybe have a little whiplash as we go into religious trauma.
But with this being our second episode in our spirituality arc, you know, our first episode was really talking about what spirituality is to each of us and, and what that means in our lives.
And we would be absolutely remiss if we did not talk about the journey that got us to the point of where we are now in our adult lives.
And religious trauma plays, a larger story, in that than I think a lot of people want to recognize.
It comes in ways a lot of times that are hidden that you don't realize it until you're in your own journey of like, what does spirituality mean to me? And just like we said in the kind of intro of the episode, is that everybody's journey is their own.
And we all, all three of us, we have a special guest today that we're excited about.
Our really good friend Brandi, who we, are not only friends with, but we met as coworkers, but became fast, fast friends.
And We little saucy when we, the three of us get together.
So we may have a little bit more bleeps normal.
It's apropos with this with this topic.
And so you know, come into it with an open heart and a willingness to understand that this, this is our journey, and for some of you, it may not resonate.
For some of you, and there's a lot of you, it will.
Anybody who has been on a journey of, like, what is spirituality to me experienced pieces of this.
So while we're not super excited to talk about the topic itself, and if, you know, anybody knows, like, if you have something that you're about to talk about, it's like all of these stories come up in the weeks prior and the days prior to it.
So we may have had some off-site conversations text threads of like, ah, these things, these things coming up.
So, kind of interested to see what it looks like.
But without further ado, we'd like to introduce, a really good friend, Brandi.
And, Brandi, our first episode, we talked about what spirituality was to us, and so would love if you would just, you know, share what does that look like for you now where we're at? Oh, that's a good question.
I think it really, for me now in my whole deconstruction, has been about separating, God, whatever that is for you, religion for me.
is, coming back to myself.
It's, knowing myself in a greater sense of how I function in the world, how I relate to people.
But also there is still those elements of those, of the fundamental belief system that I was raised with that still are prevalent for me and important to me, like kindness and generosity, right? And always having a seat at the table no matter who you are.
I mean, maybe whoever you are.
You get my gist.
So, but the truth of the matter is, is like it's really-- The spirituality for me is just coming back to myself, knowing who I am, what I believe, and, and really connecting with others with an authenticity that didn't happen till my later life that there's no amount of money that I would give it up for So Yeah.
Yeah.
Jaelene, do you wanna kinda go into yours? Do you want me to go into a little bit of background of mine? I think you can start.
I mean, I think it's import- like, all three of us come from different religious backgrounds, Mm-hmm.
and that's kinda, you know...
And we had, some other options of who we could pull in and when we were talking about this, and I think that first of all shows how often this touches people, that we, we were like, we had so many people, right, that we could have had this conversation with.
We really wanted to be representative of, different religions and the themes that come from all of them, and how they still touch people in the same way, sometimes for good and sometimes for harm.
I mean, we have these conversations personally between the three of us in what I would call, the most lit group chat ever.
But, I also think we haven't had it in, like, as deep in a foundational way as we're gonna have it today, right? Okay we have these conversations with each other as friends in a way of trying to support where we are now in our lives, knowing the background, but never really getting deep, deep into the background.
So I'm actually, looking forward to hearing, you know, from both of you about the deep, deep background that we kinda know exists in each other, but that we've never, had as big of a conversation about.
So you can go first, Angie.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, um, so growing up, you know, I, I grew up Catholic and, my story differs a bit in the fact that it- I was in eighth grade and I was supposed to get confirmed like they do.
And, super lucky in the fact that I was...
I had an argument, I could, I could argue it, and if I had good reasoning, then my parents would actually side with me.
But I had to have, like, really good reasoning.
And this one, this one was, like, not moving the needle.
My mother was like, "You will be confirmed.
You absolutely are gonna have to be confirmed."
Like, I went to Catholic school when I was younger.
We were in mass, all, alls the things, right? Confession, alls the things.
And I looked at my mom and I said, "Okay, so I just wanna, I just want to get this straight Being confirmed means that I'm, like, standing in a church in front of a priest and telling them that I believe in this religion and, and this is what that is, right? And she's like, "Yeah."
I said, "So you're telling me, you know I don't believe it, know I don't agree with it, so you want me to stand in a church and lie to a priest? that's what you would like me to do?" And she was like, "Um, no.
You will not be getting confirmed."
And I was like, "Thank you."
So I knew from, you know, at that point, I mean, we, I was in what they call CCD, catechism classes, every Wednesday, and, It just, it was not my thing in any way, shape, or form.
the way that I felt in those classes, outside of those classes, whenever we went to church, like, I remember this one time we were in church and the priest is doing the big old sermon, and he's talking about humility and material wealth and things like that, and how we need to have humility and stuff, and I look over and my mother is balancing her checkbook.
And, and I was like, "So we're not listening to the sermon.
I- is that today's...
Is that today's lesson?" And the hypocrisy of what was experiencing within the church and then what I would experience with those people outside of the church was just, I, as a teenager, it was like, no.
This...
And I had the ability to do that, right? And so, while it still, like, tenets of it, like you said, Brandy, those, you know, kind of pieces still showed up in my adult life.
And it was like, oh, wow, where did that thought, where did that belief come from? Like, that...
But it was so deep and core, you know, belief to it that I, there was so much untangling that I had to do those to be like, "That's actually, like, not what I believe."
Like, you know, that isn't the space.
You know? It's so much fear and shame and secrecy and, like, all of those pieces that, it was actually quite surprising, to be honest with you.
To be honest, yeah Who's next? 'Cause you can see we are all like, "Yeah, let's share our stories."
Brandy can go next Yeah, I figured that was coming.
I was waiting for it.
wow.
Let's go, deep dive.
So I was-- I think the, you just said, Angie, really touched like the hypocrisy.
growing up, my So my mom had me at 17 years old, right? She meets my stepdad, the dad who raised me, a few months after I'm born, and he's substantially older than her.
I know.
I tell them all the time.
Creepy.
they've been together now for 50 years, 51 years maybe, and been married for, like, 46.
So, they get together And they start their own business, they're working, whatever.
My mom decides she's putting me in private Christian school.
So I start kindergarten right in private Christian school.
Now, for context, come from a family of a lot of addiction, a lot of abuse, a lot of addiction, like everywhere.
so I'm going to this Christian school.
They're teaching me all of these things.
and I stayed in Christian school till about sixth grade when I asked to go to public school 'cause my Christian school was closing down and we were moving to the other side of town.
And my mom's like, "Are you sure? Are you sure?" And while it was one of the most traumatic moments of my life, it was also one of the best things that ever happened to me.
But, but part of that hypocrisy and that dichotomy that still lives in my brain is whole, I would be at school learning about how you're supposed to be, who you're supposed to be, right? Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
I would go home, to complete debauchery.
Mm-hmm.
I would go home and find heroin spoons in our bathroom from my stepbrother, who he gets to do whatever he wants, and we just make excuses.
So I come from a family of, "Hey, we're gonna follow Jesus," and a very conservative evangelical.
In fact, I grew up in the Assembly of Gods.
So some of those people, these are the running down the middle of the aisles, they're waving their hands, they're speaking in tongues, they're touching each other, and everybody's passing out, and I'm just like, "What is happening?" And so I think for me, there was really just that dichotomy.
And so I think when I was young, religion provided me a safe place because my Mm-hmm.
not a safe place.
wasn't.
Yeah Because I could wake up any day of the week and come downstairs, and there could be somebody new in my house that I didn't know who they were, right? I had family members who were all strung out on alcohol, heroin, meth.
I mean, you name it, they did it.
So much so that by the time I got to high school, I put a padlock on my door 'cause none of my stuff was safe.
Second grade, my piggy bank is cracked open and all my money taken out because my uncle decides he needs more beer, right? so I think that also started that lack of boundaries for me, right? Mm-hmm.
Like that's, "Well, this is our family.
This is how they are.
We just have to love them.
Don't you remember? Jesus tells us to love and forgive people."
And I'm like, you know, as an adult I can say, "Hey, yeah, that's exactly what it is, but also I'd like to read you some other scripture that talks about how Jesus is like, 'Yeah, you need to forgive, and you also need to get those people out your life because it's not good for you.'"
I think for me, it provided a safe place in my brain 'cause I'm pr- Mm-hmm.
pretty good at disassociating.
You guys know that.
Like, that's just how I navigated life.
Grew up in a chaotic family, also my parents' business.
I grew up on a carnival lot, so there you go.
I mean, that Yeah you need to know about me, right? So I didn't have the normal childhood.
We were going from fair to fair to fair to fair.
My parents owned those big food stands, and so what I'm seeing and being and out there, and I was just the kid who always wanted to do the right thing, right? I was the straight A student that never got in trouble, right? And you guys are like, "Really?" Probably now you're like, "Really? That's how you were?" Oh n- oh no, we, no, no, no, we kn- we know that core.
That's why we get it, 'cause I think Jaelene and I were both Same the same as Yeah.
children.
Yeah.
as Yeah.
Mm-hmm think that's kinda-- it, it provided me a safe place, but also what it did is it put me in a box, and it gave me such rigid beliefs that's-- an option.
This is what you Yeah you are.
You follow this, and if you don't, then you're gonna burn in hell.
Yeah, hell and brimstone and fire.
yeah.
And so you're Mm-hmm sure, I don't wanna do that."
So just this, I mean, just this inner pull as a kid and then going through adolescence and a- and I didn't actually walk away from the church until my mid to actually late 30s, Yeah was, that was a wild ride.
I Yeah, that's tough Yeah, so that's my Well, foundation.
been great, guys, and I will see you later Nice try, sister.
Nice try As you guys know, this has come up before, right? That I was raised LDS.
And I think for purposes of this conversation, and when we, and we'll get to this point I think when we get to deconstruction, I am actually not LDS anymore.
I've had my baptism canceled.
And it was, a real battle for me to get my, name removed from the records.
And.
it was like after I went through that part, which we'll talk about later, it was just like, "And I shall never be back now."
We actually grew up in Ohio near, very near Kirtland, Ohio, which is, like, one of the early LDS communities when, you know, way back in, like, the 1900s or 1800s or whenever this stuff happened.
They started in New York, and then they went to Ohio, and then they were in Missouri, and then in Illinois, and then Utah.
So it's part, right, part of the LDS culture is literally being run out of towns by, like, angry mobs, which is a real interesting, like, foundation for a religion.
But it was...
When we lived in Ohio, it was just, like, a normal part of our life.
Like, it didn't consume...
I, you know, there aren't LDS schools until you get to college.
Most of my friends didn't even know I was LDS, right? 'Cause it's not a huge LDS community.
As a matter of fact, when we moved to Utah, when I was in junior high.
And as I was leaving, I had told one of my friends where I was moving, and they were like, "You're gonna move there with all those Mormons?" And I was like, "I, I am one."
Like, she had no idea, right? 'Cause I think in elementary school it doesn't really stand out as much, right? It's not like everyone else is drinking coffee and you're not.
Like, it does stand out in adulthood, so to speak.
But once we got to Utah, it was incredibly jarring.
Incredibly jarring.
And that's where a lot of, like, the hypocrisy came into play.
Like, I would be at church and, and the age of boys that have the priesthood that are blessing the sacrament, which is, like, 16, they're blessing the sacrament and passing it out, and this is supposed to be the body and blood of Christ, right? Well, I just saw you drinking last night at a party and, like, feeling someone up in the closet.
Like, what is happening here? It's very...
Right? Like you guys are saying, it's very disorienting when you're told that this is our core belief and these are the repentances and punishments that go along with the core belief, but you don't actually see that playing out.
And then you bring it up, and you're like, "These things make me uncomfortable."
And the answer, the answer in this religion is always the same.
"People are imperfect, the religion is not."
And I'm like, "But, okay, and still these people are doing things, and they're priesthood holders that I, as a female, am supposed to be held accountable to, even at the age of 16, and you're just telling me to ignore it."
So there's this real disconnect of, like, what your body is telling you is wrong and what the trusted adults are telling you is right and to ignore the wrong.
And it always comes down to this very black and white thing of if you question, if you are on this side, it's because Satan is in charge of your brain right now, and you are not faithful.
It's always you are not faithful enough.
You're doing something wrong.
And the only way to get out of that loop is to ignore the teachings and the way of...
And it's just so confusing.
It, it just got to the point where I was just like, "I, I have to be able to ask questions.
I have to be able to be provided some answers," right? And the answers always come down to, "We don't know everything.
God knows more than we do.
We love people no matter what, but the teachings are right."
And it's like that.
There's just a point where if you have a lot of critical thinking and you have a lot of questioning behavior, it just doesn't a- it just doesn't work for me, right? When you're being silenced and the quote, unquote, "sinners," right, which I don't believe that way anymore, but in this timeframe of my life, I'm being silenced And I'm doing everything right, and the way that you're telling me to live.
I am living by the letter of the freaking law, and you're allowing these other people to do whatever they want and telling me I'm wrong, and it just didn't vibe with me whatsoever.
It was, it was very, very uncomfortable.
Very, very uncomfortable.
And also because you were a woman Oh yeah.
It's, yeah Very, very Absolutely.
Very Yeah I felt that same like you're striving.
And really what it does is it just creates a disconnect from reality for you Yeah degree, right? It's o- it's like, it's like professional gaslighting.
Yeah.
Absolutely Yeah.
It's like gaslighting at its finest, right? And I worked in the DV field for several years with survivors of domestic violence, and hear their gaslighting stories, and how often I would think, "Oh, you just described growing up in my church."
Yeah.
absolutely.
Absolutely, and that, that critical thinking piece, right? If you- any kinds of questions.
You know, in Catholicism they believe that the, that babies are born in sin, and I'm like, "How? Like, Mm-hmm.
how is this baby, this beautiful little A sinner incredibly sweet, a sinner? And why would this supposedly loving God Have a baby be born into sin, and then if he doesn't get baptized within the first eight days and they die as a infant, where they have no choice in life they're gonna go to hell? Like, what are you talking about? I, it, yeah, just, or, you know, you could, what do you mean? Be a serial killer, and you can hurt and maim and do all of these people, and at the end of the life you have a priest come in and do your last rites, and you, you know, say you're sorry, and you get to even go to any kind of modicum of heaven? Like, Mm-hmm.
are you, Yeah about? Like, how is...
How can debauchery, how can abuse, how can all of that just be, Okay "I'm sorry, do this many Hail Marys, do this many Our Fathers," and it's all gone? Like- What do you, what do you mean by I think that, that goes to one of the struggles that I've had as an adult trying to have conversations within my family and things like that of like, if I'm...
I just, I just want some accountability, right? Mm-hmm.
But when it's a deeply held belief, it, it feels like persecution when you ask for accountability.
And It creates such a complex relational problem, right? Where you can't have questions about accountability if the other side is feeling like you're persecuting them.
And I think that's why these conversations can be so challenging, right? Because then fight or flight kicks in, and you're like, you can't...
But when, you know, heaven is a really good example of this.
When I'm, when I, you know, leave the religion and I start drinking coffee, the amount of propaganda it takes to convince someone that drinking coffee keeps you out of heaven and also fractures your family in heaven, right? Because LDS, LDS heaven is very complex and, um, very rule-oriented and, and it's a tier system and, you know, f- me drinking coffee puts me in a different tier of heaven than my family, and so then I have fractured my family over a Starbucks.
And I'm like, I can't I was like, wow, even heaven, because for me, being Pentecostal and super conservative was, it was heaven or hell.
Yeah levels.
You just got to go or you didn't.
Yeah what, something you said, But did you know how you got to go? That's the thing Well, I do now.
You just abandon yourself.
Like you abandon yourself, you follow the rules, you don't question anything.
And if you do question anything...
See, that's the problem that I had with God, and I say God in, from, from my perspective who God is for me, because I'm like, everything I do wrong is me, right? It's Right It's Satan in me.
It's the evil in me.
But anything I do well, it's all because of you.
It has nothing to do with me.
So when we can pull, and you have to abandon yourself to believe that, and we pull all your self-esteem and self-worth and value out of you, right? we get you to follow and do exactly what we want you to do, and we don't want critical thinking, right? And, and so like as an adult, I look back and I'm like, "Oh my God, how did I fall for such BS for so long?" But really when you're born into it and you just kn- you, Yes taught to you your whole life, it's, Yeah And, and even now, walking away from it like 13 years ago, am still in deconstruction and stuff still comes up for me at least Have, and I think it's really, I really wanna point this out is I have LDS friends that come from families and backgrounds where they have these conversations, and they ask each other hard questions, and they have theological conversation and walk away still loving their religion and loving the community that comes with it, but they have valued connection over perfection.
And I think that when you...
For me, and because Mormonism is so deeply embedded in a culture, that if you have a family that needs the structure and the hope and the faith to be able to function because without it they cannot, you- it's very hard to have these conversations.
Versus if you have a family structure that is solid and the religion is layered on top of that, you can have these hard conversations.
And I have close personal friends that go to church every Sunday.
They have queer kids.
They Mm-hmm.
value that over this.
They take the parts of this that match them, that feel good to them, that are viable for them, and the rest they're like, "Yeah, I don't...
But I still want to be here."
And I find that to be more that fluidity of being able to have, I want the connection with humans and with my children and with my neighbors over perfectly performing.
So there's like this balance that some people have been able to find that definitely was, i- is not in my world.
Yeah, my two closest friends of literally like, gosh, 35 years now, um, I went to church with them in my early 20s Yeah we had those super-- Like we sit around and talk and we're like, "Oh my God, I can't believe I said that to you.
Oh my God, I can't believe I said that to that person.
Oh my God, I can't b- please every person who I was offensive and shoving my religion down your throat, I'm so sorry," right? Like, I wish I Yeah those people up and, uh, hug them and apologize.
Yeah But they do.
They, they went through deconstruction as well.
Their deconstruction's a little bit different than mine for different reasons, of course, and they're back in a church.
Yeah And they go to the same church, but it's a very different church.
It is valuing that relationship and, and so-- And I think that's where so much of the hypocrisy for me came in.
So one of the people who was really fundamental in my religious life was my grandmother.
I only had a grandma growing up.
And she just played a real pivotal role in my life, and she really stepped in when I was really young and my mom was so young, like she's trying to figure out how to parent.
Mm-hmm.
was always there for me.
so my grandma is actually-- My parents went to church a lot when I was younger, and then their business was predominantly on the weekend, so they still sent me to private school, but they didn't go to church anymore.
And then it was probably about 18, I started to really hit into some depression, some serious depression, and went back to church with my grandma.
And so-- And that's how I was kinda...
I mean, I went willingly because I was looking for something and I, Yeah you know, I can look, I can look back now and tell, "Oh, I, I get what it was happening," then you don't know.
And so I was going back to church because I was like, "Well, this feels safe, like I've been here before."
but what's really interesting is fast-forward to 33 years old and my middle son is spending the night at my parents' house, and my grandmother lives with them, and he, there's an accident at their house and he dies.
And I get a call at four o'clock in the morning that my eight-and-a-half-months-old son is gone.
My mother's screaming.
I don't know what he's gone means.
I drive, I get over there, I, in the car, and I'm over there and I'm waiting outside literally for four hours police and detectives are doing all of their things.
And it literally was an accident.
There was no-- nobody did anything wrong.
Died in his sleep.
That's, that's the end of that story.
But what came of it for me at that time was-- And this is-- His birthday is actually this Saturday.
He would've been 19.
for me, that was a very pivotal moment in my faith because it's like the worst thing that I could imagine has happened to me, and what am I gonna do with it? And literally almost felt like that inside, like, what are you gonna do with this, right? And then I was like, well, okay.
Like I-- And then my mom and grandma come out.
But following, in the months and the years following his death and some other things happening, I watched these pillars of my faith crumble, Mm-hmm.
In this-- my grandma like, "Well, what if I would've done this, and, what if I would've done this?" And I'm just like, wait a second.
And then you start questioning, right? 'Cause then you're like, wait, you're not God, and you are trying to play God or almost feel Mm-hmm.
because then you start having that guilt, right? 'Cause you just have to have the faith of a mustard seed to move a mountain.
And she's praying over my son, and why didn't he just come back to life, Mm-hmm.
the guilt she has.
Does she not have enough faith? And I'm like, no, Mm-hmm.
such-- And so I think for me, that's where I'm-- At 51 now I can say do believe in a God, but I also believe that that's a God that gives and takes away.
both.
when Mm-hmm.
that God only allows, this is my personal belief, when God only allows good, that is a real deception because it will, you will easily sell yourself out.
Because if God is only good, then whatever happened has to be my fault.
Yes.
Yes and so that started, started the deconstruction of my faith about 19 years ago, years ago Yeah.
Yeah And it really does, you know, it really does come down to a lot of those pieces as far as when we're talking about, g- you know, for those, for those who think trauma is an event, trauma is not an event.
Trauma is the effect of the experience of the event.
And so we can all have, you know, go through similar things, Mm-hmm.
through the exact same event, and the effect that we have of the experience of the event is going to be, what determines if it has a long-term impact.
And, when we're talking, you know, about trauma that we've experienced within religion, you know, those pieces of thinking that, that God only does all good, and He does good for the most faithful, and so if good is not happening in your life right now, have fucked it up somewhere.
That is your fault.
And that is, one, so disempowering, right? Two, is like, okay, so He just punishes, Mm-hmm.
Like, and these people who are supposed to protect me and love me, and all of those pieces, if you, you know, kind of go back into our safety template, which we talked about in, in our first season, but our safety template that's developed in childhood when we've experienced adversity, we've experienced trauma.
As you're growing up and as you're an adult and you're having all of these messages come in that it is just you, that is like, okay, so all the abuse that happened to me when I was young, all of that is my doing.
And how that kind of s- how we have to, you know, Jaelene and Brandi have both used the word deconstruction.
But how we have to deconstruct our foundational beliefs that are living somewhere inside our body, whether we had cognitively believed them or not, those, those are foundational pieces when we grow up with that kind of messaging.
And so, you know, you, when you both are talking about deconstruction, like what does deconstruction mean to you? When you use that word, what does that look like to you? Well, for me it's like to my Where I am now has come in, like, two phases, I guess I would say.
Maybe three.
S- like, in high school, I was just like, "This isn't for me."
I don't...
I...
Because, because I believed so deeply what I was being told, and I wasn't feeling any of the other, any of the things people were telling me they felt, right? That when they were praying, they were hearing God speak to them.
When they had a problem, and they took it to God in prayer, it was eased, right? And, and that when they went to the temple, that that was everything to them, and peaceful, and I wasn't...
I did not feel any of those things at all.
And none of the experiences that other people were having, I was not having any of them.
And to the point that when I would go and speak with the bishop, I...
They would say I had to have this job or this calling, and I would say no.
And I would be just so chastised for that.
And I was like, "But I'm not faithful.
Like, I don't feel these things.
Why are you making me do..."
Like, it just wasn't adding up to me.
But I also...
you can't just not go.
You can't...
when you live in your parents' house, and you're obedient, and, at that time in my life, I was extremely obedient, and so I just played along.
But I also would ask my boss to schedule me on Sundays, and I would do whatever I could do to, like, avoid, religious events, so to speak.
And so as soon as I went to college, I rarely went back to church again.
And so that was just me no longer showing up to church, but I wasn't addressing what I believed or how I felt about what I believed or what any of those things, until, like, my mid-20s.
I had a very strange conversation with a health insurance broker.
It was very strange.
And he asked me some very pointed questions about, some church history things, and what he was saying did not match what I was taught, and I was very confused.
And so I got on religion's worst enemy, Google, and started doing some research, and some of the things I was reading were incredibly upsetting to me.
Very, very upsetting to me.
And, I spent a couple years grappling with these things, ignoring them because it was so hard, leading into them because I had to know.
And that's eventually what ended up with me, canceling my baptism.
There were just some things historically I felt like had been misrepresented to me that I was deeply uncomfortable with, that I didn't feel I wanted to be associated with.
And when you say to someone, "I'm Mormon," that means- something, you know, culturally, whether you're drinking, whether you're married and living with someone, all of these things.
And I just felt like I'm not, and so I don't wanna be judged by that, and I don't want others to judge the religion by the way I live my life.
So I wanted that very clear separation of I am no longer a member of this religion, and therefore I'm living my life the way I want to.
It wasn't until I was in my mid-40s and incarcerated that, which obviously because I'm a sinner, right? I mean, everything still throughout my life.
But I mean, we joke about it, but everything in my life came down to that with my, with my family.
I would ta- I, you know, I was having problems in my marriage.
"That's because you don't go to church."
I- even down to, "I can't find a babysitter so we can go on a date."
"Well, if you went to church, you would have access to that."
Like, everything.
And it gets to the point where you're like, "Clearly I'm just a terrible person," right? And these, these normal human experiences are being laid out as you are a bad person who has made bad choices.
And so it wasn't until I was incarcerated and had a lot of free time that I started exploring, what do I actually believe? What, where have I been conditioned, and what is it doing to my brain and to my body and to my relationships? That was really the very challenging part, was in my relationships, not only with, family members, but friends and, romantic relationships, and some of the beliefs that I didn't realize I was still holding onto were creating such huge amount of shame that, Hmm.
I really had sort of like a nervous breakdown, honestly.
And since then have been slowly untangling, still probably for the rest of my life, where does that thread that's pulling on me and making me feel some type of way come from? And so I don't know if that answers what deconstruction means, but that's sort of been my process and where I've been.
It's like a lifelong thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah and the thing, I think deconstruction means different things to different people, and so that's why I asked, right? Because what it looks like for you is different than what it looks like for me, Yeah different than it look like for, for Brandi.
So Brandi, what, what does that look like for you mean? I think it goes back to me, the deconstruction.
It's been a long process.
But really it's rediscovering who I am Mm-hmm.
with the beliefs that I have, right? Which can come from that early religious beliefs, and then some have come from living life and having experiences and what do I believe.
Um, and so it's been really about rediscovering myself.
And as I sat through this last couple weeks thinking about this recording, as you earlier, like lots of stuff comes up.
Yeah I think I, I go back to there's just this dichotomy growing up, right? I, in adolescence, 13, probably 12, 13 years old, start feeling some different things than my peers are feeling, and start questioning that, right? But learn real quick that these feelings that I'm having are not okay, right? Now mind you, I want you to know, I didn't tell anybody because I could just watch my family and I could watch dynamics when the topic of homosexuality came up, and I could just see their reactions, and so I knew what the right answer was, right? Mm-hmm.
I think from starting probably about 12 years old, I think I abandoned myself Like in new ways Mm-hmm.
And learned how to disassociate, Mm-hmm.
Which has, I think in a lot of ways, saved my life.
At 51, I definitely have to be careful, try to be mindful of it, way more mindful of it, and I am thankfully.
But just that abandoning myself.
So then I went through the steps.
I went through high school, you know, started having the boyfriends, went to college, went through a really hard time in college, really huge depression.
And then, when I was 19, met my ex-husband, started dating.
We broke up, dated, broke up, and then it literally just got to the point, like everybody in your peer group's getting married, they're having kids, you're going to church.
this is what you're supposed to do, and there's also all of the I'm gonna say propaganda 'cause that's what it feels like to me, Yeah.
Yeah of, right, like yourself, betray yours- like, if you're feeling this way, this is your cross to bear, but don't act on it, right? You just, you, like you abandon yourself, you play the role, that's how you're gonna get to heaven, right? Mm-hmm.
I think there was so much of that going on so and deep for me because I was so...
I had abandoned myself and detached from myself so much that I don't think I fully even understood it.
So I enter into this marriage.
He's a good human being, and yet it just never seems to work for me, Mm-hmm.
like it just never fulfills anything.
When I'm talking to my friends or I'm talking to family, whatever happens, they're just like, "Well, all marriages go through bad spells, and it's gonna be great, and you guys love each other," right? And so then you start to think something's fundamentally broken in you, 'cause everybody Yeah.
how to do this but Yep right? Yeah Mm-hmm.
seriously, like what's wrong with me? And so I do that, and then fast-forward our son passes, we adopt our youngest, and our oldest is 13.
And A situation occurs where we're talking to him, and I see just this shame fall all over Mm-hmm.
and I'm like, "Wait."
Now, we're still in the church.
We're going to a non-denominational mega church at this time because I had gotten tired of living in a small church that was like, "Give us all of your money, and we're gonna barely make our bills every single month."
And I was like, I just need a break from this constant, you have to have my money to keep the lights on, because that Mm-hmm.
a contradiction to what I had learned.
Like, church was supposed to be out servicing people, and I felt like we weren't servicing people, we were just fattening the calves, right? We were just singing Mm-hmm.
to the choir.
So we moved to this non-denominational mega church, which I, I liked because then I could become, like, Invisible.
much, For 20 years, I had taught classes, done the, led this, went on a mission trip.
I'd done all the things, and this I can just fall into the background, right? But I'm still being faithful 'cause I'm going to church.
Right.
Right that process, my 13-year-old son, like I went, like I said, we had this conversation, and I just fall, see his head and the shame come over him, and I'm, and I literally just ask him, like, "Do you like boys?" And he says, "Yes."
his dad and I are both in the room with him, and we're like, "It's okay.
You're okay."
Right? Yeah I want to set this story for you.
I had him in private Christian school, Yeah and I was like, "Oh, whoa.
Well, we gotta change course here, folks, Gotta go we Yeah this.
Gotta go."
But I think-- And, and I will tell you, and if my son ever sees this, I cried for two days about that when he came out Oof And here's what I cried about.
I wasn't sad that he had come out as gay.
I wasn't.
That wasn't it.
It was, what it brought up for me was all of the years of betrayal of myself started coming up.
Mm-hmm.
And I didn't want that for him.
Yeah.
Yeah "Oh my gosh, don't..."
And I mean, from the moment his dad and I found out, we were both like, "Hey, like, we love you.
You're perfect exactly the way you are.
Like, you be you, right? And we support you."
And so I I think for me that it just brought up...
So that's what the crying was for.
It wasn't 'cause I was sad that he was gay.
I loved that boy he was purple and hopped around on one foot, I don't care.
Like, and that was his thing.
so that came up for me.
And so as we're, as I'm deconstructing my faith a little bit, and then what happens is we call the church and we're talking about like, "Here's our son, he's come out."
And they're like, "Oh, absolutely he can still come to church.
He just can't serve in any type of leadership and he can't technically be a member."
And I'm like, "Wait, what?" Mm-hmm.
as he's not practicing the homosexual lifestyle, then he can come to church."
And I'm like, "No.
Yeah Like, absolutely not."
And you know, we all know, I think most of us as mothers, there's a lot of shit you will take.
You Yeah will take a lot of abuse.
You will take a lot of things being said to you.
You will...
But you, you come after my kid, and that's different.
Yeah And so I think that was, that really...
I had already been questioning a lot of things, but that was basically the time when I was like, "Nope, we're done here," and walked away from the church because like, if it's not good enough for my son, then whatever.
Now mind you, I know, right, at the time, 'cause he's in private Christian school, I can walk around this campus.
I know what moms and dads are having affairs with each other.
Seriously? the s- yeah, Seriously I know who the swingers Yep.
right? I Yep.
who's Yep underhanded business dealings, right? But that's okay.
They can be in leadership because, you know, because they can.
And so, and then even in the church, I was like, "Wait, there's stuff going on in the leadership," but that's okay because if, they're, you know, they, they repented.
And I'm like, "Well, my son's not gonna repent 'cause he didn't do anything wrong.
He's just being himself."
So that really started that huge sh- shift of that deconstruction went into like overdrive of rediscovering myself because then that whole early adolescence stuff started coming up for me.
And then, you know, it's 2020, pandemic hits.
You're at home with your spouse and your kids 24/7, seven days a week.
Like you are in it.
And I had gotten really good at my job and being so busy that that fell- places of m- my heart that had just been aband- I had abandoned.
I had people, I had work, that I could fill those empty spaces with, and so life was good enough for me, right? Life was good enough for me, until I make a friend at work, and I think, "Oh my gosh, this person's gonna be like another best friend.
Like how lucky am I to have another person that's so close?" And then what ends up happening is we start spending time together and she tells me how she feels.
"I wanna be more than friends with you."
And then it's like it all comes crashing in, right? And then there was just that moment, and I can laugh about it 'cause it, it was so beautiful.
But I can tell you in the midst of it, amount of Incongruency in my brain that's happening monumental.
Yeah.
Yeah it only takes me five days between her and I talking about this and me deciding how I feel, like what's going on inside of me.
Like, because this-- at this point, this isn't about her, this is, this is about me.
Mm-hmm.
I gonna do? And so who am I? And then I realize, if I do this, if I end this marriage, I am turning my life upside down Mm-hmm.
way.
And, but that was the biggest part of my deconstruction and rediscovering myself, was being able to hold space that a woman.
Mm-hmm.
and that was it.
And I had spent 40-something years burying that so deep and staying so out of touch with it And that when it happened, I was just like, "Whoa," and went to my ex-husband and said, "Okay, I can't do this anymore, and here's why."
And I was super transparent, because you guys know how I am.
I'm Mm-hmm.
don't-- I'm, I'm done hiding who I am.
I'm done hiding as a human being.
And so we, I think we had the most amicable divorce of all divorces.
We're still pretty good friends.
We co-parent really well.
And I end up marrying, this person, and I love her more than words can say.
And so now when I talk about marriage, like it's not, it's not hard in the same way, right? Like any marriage is hard, any relationship is hard, with your kids, your friends, your family, it doesn't matter.
Relationships are hard, they're complicated, 'Cause we're humans.
And, but this is the hard-- this is the good hard.
This is the hard that when something happens, that's the person I wanna go through it with.
But that's been what deconstruction is, is rediscovering who I am, but also aligning it with my definition of spirituality, Yeah Yeah I do believe in God.
I do believe in a force that's stronger than me.
I do believe in a God that gives and God that takes away, because I can look back over my life and say, had my son not died, you know, in 2008, there may have been a chance I wouldn't have adopted my son in 2011.
Mm-hmm to, like, and I love him just as much as I love my other two boys.
Like, and so I do believe in a power, a greater power, but this, this greater power I think loves me exactly the way I am because I believe that's the way He made me.
Yeah Yeah.
Yeah.
And isn't, isn't that really kind of the crux of it all, is believing that you are lovable and that you are loved for who you are, which is how He created you if you, you know, if you believe in God.
But that kind of dichotomy of only does the good things, anything bad is you, and, those pieces when it comes down to talking about the trauma that, that religion, that organized religions have created in some people is that I hear over and over again, right? Is that dichotomy of like, "Oh, wait, I'm actually worthy just Mm-hmm.
because I'm here, because I was created, because I am, you know, in, in this space, and I don't have to, you know, play hopscotch backwards twice a day, especially on Sunday.
And, um, you know, I can swear and I'm not going to be struck down by lightning."
Now, my husband, as, religious as he is and his background, you know, and the deconstruction he has done himself, he's not too appreciative of the amount of Jesus jokes that I have.
they make me laugh.
You made me laugh.
But it really does kind of come down to that, right? Of like that, that we are love.
Like of listening to both of you kind of talk about your stories, and it's really that something doesn't fit here, and I'm being told it's not me.
I'm the one that doesn't fit, you know? And, and, and, and you know what? F you, because I know I fit, and I am a very good person, and I would never intentionally harm other people.
I'm watching all of these other people in this, you know, church that are harming, actively harming, other people, and they're being held up into this different kind of standard.
And let's face it, most of them were men.
And allowed to just break whatever, you know, commandment and things that there was, and not have any consequence to it.
And for some reason they were worthy.
That a lot of it is coming into our own as women and who we are, and that...
You know, and I think with Catholicism specifically is that whole submission and submissiveness that is, taught as the only way because you do anything else and you're a harlot and you're going to hell, and how dare you, you know, kind of piece to it.
But it, really just kind of boils down to is we are here, and what does that spirituality look like when we know that we have worth in just being here, and that we are lovable as we are, and that you can still, and a lot of people are...
My kids will say that, both of my girls are atheists they feel like to them people are only kind because of their religion, and if they didn't have their religion, they wouldn't be.
And so when they say that they're atheists because they're just kind to be kind, right? And, I think that comes from a lot of times watching that hypocrisy those, in those pieces too.
My intention is Yeah.
for me to live my life in a way that feels aligned with myself and with the way that I view the world, and with a way that allows my children to be fully loved in this world, right? And so I think that's why these conversations are so challenging for me, is I do wanna be really careful, um, not to harm any relationships that I have.
Yeah, I agree.
I think there's a lot that's in this conversation came up in my brain as we're talking, you know, and I'm just like, "No, I'm not going there," for the preservation of relationships.
And Mm-hmm.
because as a human being now in this deconstruction, in this evolvement of me, and in the development of losing all of my hormones and going through menopause real and the, and the amount of I don't give a shit takes over my life now, I still care about those relationships.
Yeah also still care about people's ability to choose.
And so even my youngest son in this last year, because he grew up in the church when he was younger, and he's 15 and a half now, has talked about, "Well, should we maybe go back to church?" And so that's always a real open conversation Yeah us.
Mm-hmm.
I've said, "If you would like to go to church, we can start looking for some places to go.
I will support you on this journey of discovery for you."
Because once again, I think faith and spirituality and, is such an individual, um, thing that I want to give my kids every opportunity to explore who they are and who they wanna be without me clouding, um, muddying the waters for them because of my Yeah so, yeah, I think it's...
I, but I think that's-- And then I just wanna say this last thing, and I believe for me, that's what being a Christian is really about.
I don't use the label, I don't claim it, but that's how I grew up, and it's loving people exactly where they are, for who they are, and supporting them in this process, um, of wherever their life takes them.
I think, you know, to tag something that might be a future conversation is the real deeply felt loss of community when you go through a deconstruction.
Not only do you lose community, you lose access to rituals, you lose access to holidays, you lose access to, in my case, weddings.
And it's r- there's this deep tension of like, are we here to practice right belief or right practice? Because if I'm here to practice belief, that allows space for everyone.
But if we are here based just on right practice, I just struggle to get there.
And the exclusion of people from their family rituals and community rituals because you don't like the way they practice their beliefs is incredibly harmful.
And what brought that up is, Brandi, when you're talking about your youngest saying, "Maybe we should go to church," I get that pull sometimes of like, where can I go to have the community without the punishment? Because I will punish myself enough.
I have got that under control, right? Yeah, for Yeah So how do you access community in a way that isn't also harmful? It's not where I came from, because my children aren't allowed there.
And so I think that's a real struggle, and I think if, the path that I'm on continues to take me is how do I connect with the outside world and with a community where I feel safe, and where I can talk about my beliefs and still engage in ritual and holiday practice.
It's really stressful.
It, that's really stressful.
Yeah, for sure Yeah, that community piece I think is a lot of times what draws people to organized Yeah Mm-hmm.
And, I know that, you know, with my husband, that's the one thing he misses as well, Yeah.
that community piece.
So when he, when he left his, religion, he left- he lost everyone, his family, his friends, every single thing, that he did.
And he is, he is one of the most faithful people that I know in, in, in what he practices.
And so, like, it's kind of strange seeing that, that dichotomy Yeah really? Like, they cut you off just because of you don't believe what they believe? Yeah.
my brain is like, "That makes no sense to me."
But I see it, I see it so many times, you know what I mean? Like, I'm just over and over.
Honestly, it's kind of heartbreaking.
I wanna share before we close up, one of my favorite, people is Jarrad Hewitt, and in one of the posts he had written, he was talking specifically, about our faith and our principles.
And, I was reading it this morning, I was like, "Oh, you know, this would be really good to kinda close out."
But and discernment are essential now because many people are losing faith in principles after being disappointed by people.
Someone can repeat elevated words and still live from a distorted identity.
Someone can carry a real insight and fail to embody the love they speak about.
If you placed someone on a pedestal and later l- felt the fall, gather the gift without carrying the baggage.
what sparked in you and what became true through your own experience.
Release the borrowed authority and keep the wisdom that became real Like that Yeah, Right? Wisdom and discernment yeah, we're all very spiritual and faithful people in our own way.
It is not with the organized religion that, you know, we were raised with.
had to, to find out what that meant to us, and I, and I do feel that that is what we all have to do in this life, right? of the things we say in our house is trust your knowing, Yes That's that inner voice, that your gut feeling, your heart telling you.
my closest friend will say, follow your heart, but take your brain with you."
And 'cause you need both of them.
And I'm like, "She's not wrong.
She-- It's true."
But really, that trust, that knowing, and I think that is something that it's taken me a long time to get back to.
But my Yes my gut tells me when something's right, and that's why I was able to make such a huge life shift, because my gut said, "This is the right Yeah And like when I believe something and I feel it now in my body and in my spirit, like that's what I'm gonna do, and it doesn't matter what anybody else says.
Because at the end of the day, when I put my head on my pillow, I have to be okay with me.
Yeah with me or not, that's irrelevant.
I have to be okay with me so that I can sleep at night Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
All right Brandi, thank you so much for Thank you, Brandy We will, we will have her back because, well, honestly, she ma- we're talking about adding joy into our life this season, right? And Brandi brings both Jaelene and I A lot of joy We just...
Yeah, seriously, we just, we have fun having conversations.
And, um, I think it's rare these days that you can have deep conversations and, um, be real and honest and authentic about them.
Um, no, our age and our perimenopause/menopause status helps in that realm.
For sure But, thank you very much for joining us That was a good one.
Thank you, guys Absolutely.
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Thank you so much to Brandi for being with us and having an honest, authentic, and true conversation about religious trauma.
We are so grateful to all of our guests this season.
Next week, we'll be back to our parenting series where we will be talking about parenting culture and raising kids that do not fit into the norm.
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