Latest / The Diary of a CFO / Leading Through Market Cycles, with Real Estate and Construction CFO, Bona Allen

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Leading Through Market Cycles, with Real Estate and Construction CFO, Bona Allen · The Diary of a CFO

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I will drop the link in the show notes. Back
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to the episode. Welcome back to the Diary of
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a CFO podcast. The podcast where finance leaders
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share the lessons, challenges, and wins that
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shape their careers, as well as their organizations.
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I'm your host, Waseea Kaman. And today I'm super
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delighted to have with me Mr. Bona Allen. Bona
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is a seasoned executive with over 40 years of
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financial and operational leadership in real
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estate. constructions, and investment. For more
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than a decade, he was SVP and CFO of KBD Group,
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the US arm of Kajima Corp, where he led financial
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strategy for major manufacturing distribution
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facility project nationwide. His career includes
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CFO roles at both public and private companies
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across hotels, industrial office, mixed use,
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student housing, and affordable housing development.
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Welcome to the show, Bona. Thank you. Happy to
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be here. And you're seasoned and some would call
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me highly seasoned. I love it. And that's why
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my first question for you is the fact that you've
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been a CFO for like two decades. So how have
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you seen the role evolve? And do you feel like
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it's getting easier or harder? Well, actually,
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it's closer to three decades now. So yeah, three
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decades. Okay. Yeah. Highly seasoned, if not
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a little spicy. It's evolved a lot. And a lot
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of it, I think, is a combination of new technologies,
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but also taking people that have visibility into
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all aspects of a company and then within the
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company and outside the company, not just on
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a financial realm, but on operations and then
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looking to see where the company is going, where
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we've been and where we're going. So we're using
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technology to be more efficient so that it's
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not so much generating the numbers, it's more
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determining what the numbers mean, analyzing
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the numbers and having your staff analyze the
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numbers so that we can take that information.
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and help see around the corner, help see where
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the company is going. And on the macro side,
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looking to the whatever economy where we are,
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whether it's a certain market, geographic market
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or product based market, to see where the economy
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is going, where our business is going and where
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our companies are going. So it's really about
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looking to the future. I think that it's always
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been part of the CFO role. But now with technology
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becoming or helping bring efficiencies to bear.
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then I think we're able to do that, meaning the
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strategic aspect of it a lot more effectively
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and efficiently. So when you think back at your
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first CFO role, what would you say are some of
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the things that helped you get that role compared
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to getting into a CFO role like three decades
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later? Wow. Well, let's see. So my first CFO
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role was I had been previously to that. I had
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been the top finance person. for a while with
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a Dutch company, Dutch owned company here in
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the U .S. And it was big. We had real estate
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holdings and real estate developments across
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the country, across the U .S. I started there
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in the late 80s, I guess. And then the savings
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and loan crisis hit. So the real estate markets
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fell apart. So we had to work out of a lot of
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these troubled assets. And so I met somebody
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that in that process who later was involved in
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taking a company public, and this company was
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buying hotel properties, and the company was
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structured as a real estate investment trust,
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a REIT. We stayed connected, and he brought me
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in as the CFO, and that was my first CFO role,
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was for a publicly traded company. I had no idea
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what I was doing. Thanks for that meeting. So
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fortunately, we had really good advisors and
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corporate counsel, corporate securities counsel,
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to sort of lead me along there. But in some respects,
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it's consistent with how the CFO role has changed,
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how you find new CFO roles. Some things haven't
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changed. It's all about networking and meeting
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the right people. And then also the technology
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aspect of it. When you're looking at the CFO
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role, technology can bring in efficiencies. When
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you're a CFO looking for a new role, I think
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the technology brings in inefficiencies because
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You know with the AI aspect of it, reviewing
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resumes and a lot of times if you're applying
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for something online you may never get a response.
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So that's where it's all about relationships
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and networking and building relationships so
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that when we are looking for a new goal then
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we can let our network know and have eyes and
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ears on the ground helping you look. Wow. I really
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like what you said, because basically, even though
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the role itself evolved, how you get the role
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has not really changed. And it's really about
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networking and showing up as like that perfect
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fit, right? Right. Now you have been in real
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estate constructions, and I just really want
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to understand what is first the biggest difference
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between real estate and constructions from a
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finance and accounting standpoint? But when you
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wake up as the CFO of a real estate company or
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construction company, what are the things that
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really you're paying attention to? The things
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that you keep checking because they may have
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an impact on your expenses or your forecast?
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Well, first of all, from a leadership standpoint,
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it's all about people. So that's where regardless
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of the company or the industry, I think it's
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all about leading people and making sure that
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they have the tools that they need to be successful.
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And then looking to the future again, I mean,
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the strategic aspect of it of, yeah, this is
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where we are today, but where are we going? I
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think that's just critical. The differences between
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real estate and construction, I think maybe some
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of the biggest aspects are the biggest differences
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are the way the companies and the projects are
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financed. In other words, in the real estate
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business, real estate development, especially
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each project has its own financing and as the
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finance leader, you're heavily involved in financing
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those projects. And they have a number of different
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structures. And that can evolve as well. Whereas
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on the construction side, your clients are the
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ones that are financing the projects. So as the
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CFO or finance leader, then we're more worried
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about working capital. How do we make sure that
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we have the working capital to build these projects?
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And then making sure also that the contractual
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or the contracts between the general contractor
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and the client, the payment terms are critical
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as well. And so what you don't want is the general
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contractor is to be subject to paying out money
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to your subcontractors before you get paid. And
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that's where there's the clauses of pay when
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paid clauses so that whether you're not obligated
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to pay your subcontractors until you get paid
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from your client. That's sort of the biggest
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difference off hand and Beyond that is looking
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to the future again I keep going to the future
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aspect and looking forward because you know as
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accountants the people that are based in accounting
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our tendency is to keep our head down and just
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do the numbers right and that's where I started
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years and years ago, but You know pretty soon,
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especially with the cycles, you know, every industry
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has cycles real estate and construction the cycles
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can be brutal and so One thing I've learned after
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all these times and all these different cycles
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is you have to have a plan B. What happens if
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we're building office buildings and all of a
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sudden the office building market dries up? What's
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next? What do we do then? And so you have to
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have a fallback position to say, okay, well,
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if office buildings slow down, then we'll build
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something else or develop something else. What
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would that be? Wow. And you have been through
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a couple of real estate crisis, right? The first
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one where you became CFO and then there was a
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real estate crisis in 2008. Do you think we are
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due for another real estate crisis soon? Or what
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are some of the factors that now you realize
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impact the real estate market? Well, I guess
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it depends on the market segment because there's
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always whatever it is. It could be, again, office
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buildings or single -family homes, multi -family
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homes, retail, distribution, manufacturing, all
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these different segments. At any given point,
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there's ups and downs. Each one is going up or
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down, and some of it depends on geographic markets.
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In the Southeast, for a long time here recently,
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the Southeast was very, very strong from a construction
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standpoint and real estate development, where
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perhaps other geographic segments of the U .S.
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were not. In the real estate markets, there's
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a term called the rolling recession. So it just
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depends on the market. Things could go up and
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down at different times. So right now, there's
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a housing crisis. And it's been in the headlines
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a lot. We don't have enough housing. We don't
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have enough housing that people can afford. So
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that is a crisis. part of the problem there is
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just the cost, whether it's the land cost or
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the commodities to build these properties. On
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the affordable housing side, where we build housing
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that people in middle to lower income levels
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can afford, I saw something recently, they're
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upwards around seven to 10 million units short
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in the U .S. So then the question is, well, how
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do we solve that problem? That's where some of
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the governmental Incentives come in, but overall,
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it just depends on the segment, I think. And
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then there are external factors. A lot of times
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things will be overbuilt, so that's a cause for
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slowdown. But sometimes there are external factors
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like tariffs that could raise the commodities
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prices, whatever it is, wood, steel, concrete,
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whatever it takes to build. I'm sorry, I don't
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have a really good answer for that. At any given
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point, we could be in different portions of a
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cycle for different market segments. I like how
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you talked about it could be different segments
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in different cycles. So as a CFO, when you start
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a new role, how are you able to determine the
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cycles that you're currently in, and when you
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think about the future, what you should be planning
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on. So let's say you're starting today. What
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are those things? What are those documents or
11:12
conversations you may have to understand the
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cycle you're in? What is really at stake so you
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can better plan for what's coming next? You look
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at whatever it is you're developing or building.
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How competitive is it? What is the level of demand?
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And so If there's for a while there was high
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level of demand for distribution warehouses.
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And so there's a lot of those being built entering
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in like 2019, 2020 entering into COVID. And then
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it just exploded because of the internet commerce
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boom. So I think when markets become overheated
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and there's all these, whatever the product is,
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in that case, it was distribution, warehouse
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distribution facilities. And they're being built
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everywhere. And then you can look at the absorption
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rates, you know, how much of these properties
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are being leased at any given point. What's the
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vacancy rate when there are all these properties
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being built? It's time to step back and say,
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OK, well, time out. How many do we really need?
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And on the real estate development side. But
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then you get into manufacturing. And I think
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manufacturing tends to be in cycles, too, and
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especially any election cycle. things slow down,
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right, on the beginning of an election cycle.
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And when I was with Cosmo Building and Design
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Group, we anticipated that. So in 2023, we thought,
12:34
well, OK, 2024 is an election year. So early
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2024, things will probably start slowing down.
12:40
And they did. And that group has an architectural
12:43
and design aspect. That's how you can sort of
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see the leading indicators of when companies
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are starting to slow down and they're looking
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at new facilities or expanding existing facilities.
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On the front end of that, they'll start the architectural
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process and site selection. And so we saw it
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slowing down. And that's just how it works. And
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so through 2024, it was slow. But generally,
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after the election, it doesn't matter who's running,
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who's for president of the US. Things generally
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pick up in December, January, February. It didn't
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this time because of the worry about tariffs
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this last cycle. But Generally, looking to the
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future or when you're starting a new CFO role
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and you're trying to figure out where in the
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cycle the company is versus the market that the
13:34
company is in, then I would say look to see how
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competitive that is wherever you are. And if
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there are only a few of your companies bidding
13:44
on these trying to get deals, that means maybe
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there's not enough deals out there. So there
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could be some runway. Whereas if there are lots
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of deals being built, well, maybe it's time to
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be careful because things may slow down pretty
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quickly. Love it. But that also means that you're
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having conversations, not just within your finance
14:03
and accounting team, but pretty much with everyone
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to understand those leading versus lagging indicators.
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That's right. And this applies to all businesses,
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I think, is trying to stay on top of the macroeconomic
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situations, global geopolitical, you know, there's
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so many different components that come into where
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our businesses are heading. It can be all encompassing
14:27
and consuming all consuming is because there's
14:30
so much the news cycle these days is just crazy.
14:33
Right. Yeah. And so but you have to be selective
14:38
and and try to keep an eye out for where you
14:42
think the economy is going and where could be
14:45
the pitfalls, where it could be the road bumps.
14:47
Now let's take a quick break to talk about a
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problem most finance teams face. You spend hours
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wrestling with data from different systems, building
14:55
reports manually, and by the time you are done,
14:58
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finance team operates. I'll also drop the link
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in the show notes. So what are KPIs that matters
15:38
to you, like in your world? And how do you build
15:42
your team to really support you in understanding
15:45
the macro, micro, what's going on in the business,
15:48
the KPIs? Like, how do you build a team to support
15:51
you as a CFO? It varies. You know, again, I mean,
15:55
it's everything we just talked about. You know,
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where do you think the business is going? And
15:59
also taking into account the latest technologies
16:02
and making sure that that you're using the right
16:06
technology. I hate the phrase. We've always done
16:09
it this way. Right. Right. So because there's
16:13
so much great technology out there. We just but
16:15
this is not an original thought or quote. But
16:19
like to be on the leading edge, but not the bleeding
16:21
edge. So bring in the right technology because
16:25
it changes daily. But, you know, if you're still
16:29
processing paper. any type of paper, you're probably
16:34
way behind. And so from an accounting standpoint,
16:39
everything should be digitized and in the cloud.
16:42
But you have to be careful about security and
16:45
make sure you're highly secure and your service
16:48
providers are taking the right security protocols.
16:52
But as far as building the team, making sure
16:55
that you have people that want to learn, that
16:58
are curious, that are interested in helping the
17:02
company grow and helping themselves grow. And
17:06
when I was at Kojima, we brought somebody in
17:09
who just wanted to do accounts payable. That's
17:11
it. This person had previously been a manager
17:14
elevated to manager level and she hated it and
17:17
like that was not for her. So she just wanted
17:21
to process accounts payable. And we had a lot
17:24
of accounts payable that needed processing. And
17:26
so that's what you sometimes you need people
17:28
just to take care of the day to day stuff. But
17:31
at one point, and we had the teams meeting in
17:34
person, this was, you know, I guess it was right
17:38
before COVID hit. And so we were in person. She
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said, Why are we? Why are we still using Excel
17:44
to process expense reports? And I'm like, Amen,
17:49
we need to do something different. You know,
17:51
you know, help with that? Sure. Yeah. And so
17:54
she formed a team. and did the diligence. And
17:58
the team crossed all departments, right? We had
18:00
some people from job sites. We had some people
18:02
from different corporate departments. And they
18:06
picked a solution, a digital solution in the
18:09
cloud. And then she brought it to the executive
18:12
group and we agreed and we approved it. And then
18:15
she picked a team to implement it. So she's a
18:18
leader and she wants to make things better. But
18:21
day to day, she just wants to deal with accounts
18:23
payable. What that did, she changed the company.
18:26
I mean, she, for the better. And so, and it was
18:30
a huge success. And it was a success for her
18:33
personally too, because she was able to grow
18:35
and lead a team, two different teams. And so
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I think that's, as leaders, we have to be able
18:42
to listen and give people opportunity and then
18:44
ask questions. What is it you want to do? How
18:47
can it help your career so that you can help
18:50
yourself and... and help the company too. And
18:53
that's a big way, I think, number one, building
18:56
a team to attract good people, they have to understand
19:00
that the leader's mindset is open to this sort
19:03
of thing. And secondly, it's just as important
19:06
in retaining the team, keeping them engaged.
19:09
And so I think that's a long answer to your short
19:13
question of how do you pick the right team for
19:16
the future. But some of these concepts cross
19:19
industry lines. Yes, they definitely do. And,
19:23
you know, when you think about AI, earlier you
19:25
mentioned, you know, your resume. Because with
19:28
AI, everybody looks perfect. The resume looks
19:31
all good, right? Because you can take AI, you
19:34
can take the job description, you can take your
19:36
resume, and literally match them, and it looks
19:39
like it's the perfect person for the job. But
19:42
what you mentioned is... Oh, I want them to be
19:44
curious. I want them to learn. I want to find
19:46
that alignment between what they like and what
19:48
I want them to do. So how do you get to do that
19:52
now, knowing that everybody looks good on resume?
19:55
You mean picking the right people? Yes. That's
19:59
where you have to talk to them. You have to get
20:01
to know folks. And yeah, I mean, the first, I
20:05
guess the vetting process, the first or second
20:07
pass. And that's where, you know, you may. think
20:10
that somebody isn't a great fit on paper, but
20:13
they could be a great fit from a personality
20:15
standpoint. And again, this isn't an overused
20:18
mantra, maybe, but, you know, hire for the future,
20:22
hire for the person and the fit, and they can
20:25
figure out the job, right? So I think that's
20:29
where, you know, it takes the personal interaction
20:31
to get to know folks and have multiple people
20:35
You know, I guess the term is interview, but
20:37
it's really get to know folks, you know, have
20:39
meetings with them. You know, for bigger companies,
20:42
you have to boil this down into smaller groups,
20:44
right? I mean, for, you know, for a company that
20:47
has 10 ,000 or more employees than this, the
20:52
amount of medias, the concepts are still the
20:54
same. You just have to narrow it down into smaller
20:57
teams so that you go through the same process.
21:00
Okay. And once a person come in from onboarding
21:03
to really the long -term retention, what have
21:06
been some of your go -to moves, if I can say,
21:08
or your playbook to make sure they onboarded
21:11
right and that they actually stay? Because I
21:13
feel like it hurts to have turnover because you
21:16
have to relearn and redo. And the team members
21:20
are like, oh, I'm doing extra work. I'm burned
21:23
out. What do you usually do to make sure that
21:25
the onboarding and the retention part is really
21:28
on point? Well, I mean that yes, there needs
21:31
to be a standard but it can it can vary everybody's
21:34
different what I've seen a lot of companies do
21:38
and Seen I've lived it is, you know, there's
21:42
a two or three day on bright onboarding process
21:44
and the people are inundated and then that's
21:47
it There's no follow -up. So I think there should
21:49
be some follow -up and so because you're you
21:52
sit down and you meet a whole lot of people and
21:55
you go to different lunches and Actually, the
21:57
HR group at KBD did a wonderful job of really
22:02
just bringing people in on a more casual basis,
22:04
you know, having a lunch in a big conference
22:06
room and people from all different departments
22:09
coming in and just spending a little time with
22:11
the new people. But also, I think it's just following
22:15
up to say, okay, all right, two weeks ago, we
22:19
showed you the ERP system. Let's have another
22:21
refresher or maybe two or three months later.
22:25
What I've also seen is in some cycle, maybe 90
22:29
days, somebody, whoever it is, one or two people
22:33
have a lunch with a new person and get their
22:35
take on where things are. You were inundated
22:40
with a couple of days, two or three days of onboarding.
22:44
What have you forgotten? What do you need to
22:46
know? What question? Yeah, the only thing I could
22:49
remember is what I ate for lunch. That's right.
22:54
Because there's so much, it's information overload,
22:57
right? And so, especially now, again, getting
23:00
back to technology, there's so many different
23:01
technologies we have to know on a daily basis,
23:04
whether it's the expense reporting or whatever
23:07
it is we use every day. And maybe you don't use
23:11
everything every day, so you need to go back
23:12
to something that you use once a month, need
23:16
a refresher. So I think we're following up and
23:20
having a lot of different people from different
23:22
departments involved. Okay. Okay. And then as
23:25
a CFO, you're overseeing multiple functions,
23:28
right? You have accounting, treasury, probably
23:30
FP &A, like there's tax, there's a lot within
23:34
your function. How do you make sure that each
23:36
function works well together? Right. And that
23:40
goes beyond just the finance and accounting piece,
23:43
right? Because we work with other departments
23:45
too. It's developing relationships. I mean, construction
23:49
is a good example in and of itself because you
23:52
know, we've got all this work, the business is
23:54
about building things that aren't in the office,
23:57
right? So I think it's important to get people
24:01
that are office based out to the job sites. And
24:06
it's a great experience for everybody. It gets
24:09
them on these job sites and in the dirt, depending
24:12
on the type of job site, you know, whether it's
24:15
in the dirt or an office building or something
24:17
else. And it gets them outside of the office
24:19
and it gets the people that are on site gives
24:22
them a chance to get to know people that are
24:23
in the office. And so hopefully the term ivory
24:27
tower does not apply anymore, but it might at
24:30
least conceptually. And so it sort of personalizes
24:34
all these different functions, whether it's finance,
24:38
accounting, whoever else is in the office and
24:41
the people that are on the job site. And so I
24:44
think it's developing relationships and open
24:46
lines of communication. And this is where, especially
24:50
now, I think there's a move, maybe I'm wrong,
24:53
but I get the sense that there's a movement that
24:55
some job functions and job departmental lines
24:59
are being blurred, which is good, right? And
25:02
so as opposed to specific silos firmly in place.
25:06
And whereas, you know, okay, well, I'm on the
25:08
treasury side. I don't really, I shouldn't have
25:11
to talk to somebody on the HR side much or in
25:15
risk management, but that's not true. I mean,
25:17
we all work together and we've all got great
25:19
ideas. that we could share. And so, again, I
25:23
get back to relationships and helping, encouraging,
25:28
if not, maybe not mandating, but leading by example.
25:32
I mean, if people see me working closely with
25:35
people outside our department or see me going
25:38
to job sites, then hopefully they can take that
25:42
example and follow. Yeah, and I like the idea
25:45
of going in and actually seeing how the work
25:48
is so you can better understand the numbers.
25:50
I always feel like it's so important, but I feel
25:54
like sometimes people in FP &A may be the one
25:57
doing it, but not necessarily people in accounting.
25:59
So how do you also, do you also bring your accounting
26:02
team along so they can also see it? Like how
26:05
do you make sure that both on the accounting
26:07
side or FP &A side, they're both business partnering?
26:11
Yes, I think so because Again, we're all on one
26:13
team. It depends on the size of the company.
26:16
I mean, you know, each team could have, who didn't
26:20
pick a number, you know, it could be 10, it could
26:22
be 100 people, right? So how do you cross -pollinate?
26:27
And I think it can vary by company. And also
26:30
these days with geographic, you know, we're so
26:34
geographically dispersed, then if you can't get
26:38
together in person, then schedule a virtual meeting.
26:41
You know, this is something that came out of
26:43
COVID and, you know, in the COVID era, especially
26:47
early on, we started having daily, then it progressed
26:52
to two or three times a week and then once a
26:54
week, but check -ins. It's just to see how people
26:57
are doing because not everybody has a family.
26:59
Some people are alone. They don't, you know,
27:01
they live by themselves. And so it's as much,
27:04
you know, checking to see how people are doing
27:06
as it is, you know, tell me about, you know,
27:09
your job and the things that you're doing today.
27:11
And so why not do the same thing? And also, this
27:15
is where you have things to talk about. Yes.
27:21
Yes, I did all my accounts payable. I did all
27:26
my reporting. And so we're done, right? Until
27:30
tomorrow. But so then you have themes. And this
27:34
was not my idea, but crazy hat theme or come
27:38
and talk about your favorite vacation or something
27:40
like that. So we could do the same thing across
27:42
departmental lines. In our group, the finance
27:46
and accounting, we would have guest speakers,
27:49
or a special guest star, and somebody from the
27:52
design group or the construction group would
27:55
join the team's meeting and tell about the project
27:57
that we're working on, or whatever it is they
28:00
do. And some are electrical engineers, mechanical
28:03
engineers. And again, it's informative, but it
28:06
also develops those relationships. I think that's
28:09
the key, too, is to answer your question, you
28:13
know, how do you get Treasury and FP &A and accounting
28:16
and all those different functions together so
28:18
that they can understand what each other does?
28:21
Maybe you swap roles for a bit or cross train.
28:26
Love it. And to me, for me, I would really like
28:30
to understand what helped to develop your leadership
28:33
style. Like the, I like how you think about bringing
28:37
teams together. Was there a particular turning
28:39
point in your career or specific events that
28:42
help you think that way in terms of the CFO thinking
28:45
of the future, but also. everything is about
28:48
relationship. Because when we go to school, I
28:49
think like everything is about debits and credits
28:51
or P &L analysis and various analysis. And then
28:55
you get into the world and you realize it's about,
28:58
you know, thinking about the future, making sure
29:00
it's sustainable, but it's all rooted in people.
29:04
So what really shaped your approach to leadership?
29:07
The biggest, I guess, things that jumpstarted
29:10
different aspects of my leadership style. Two
29:13
things. One, the mistakes I made. And two, the
29:17
difficulties in the cycles. You know, when you're
29:21
dealing with troubled times, then you're forced
29:24
to do things. And a lot of times I did it wrong.
29:27
I made big mistakes and I learned from those
29:29
or tried to. And so my style is very collaborative.
29:33
Ultimately, it's not a democracy, right? I mean,
29:37
leadership, I mean, you want to get different
29:39
views and hear from different people before you
29:42
make a decision. But as a leader, a decision
29:45
maker, you're the You have to make those decisions.
29:48
But we all make mistakes. And again, I'm seasoned
29:52
and I've made a lot of seasoned mistakes. So
29:56
I think that and I've learned from different
29:59
people and different leadership styles. And so
30:02
you sort of develop your own. I keep saying yes,
30:06
I'm seasoned because you can't say old anymore.
30:09
But I'm still highly immature. Really? Oh yeah.
30:13
And I'm proud of my high level of immaturity.
30:16
So when was the last time you felt like you had
30:19
no idea what you were doing? I think it was earlier
30:22
in the COVID era. I mean, that was such a big,
30:25
big change. I was dealing with some, one of my
30:30
parents felt ill and had been ill for a long
30:33
time and then passed away in March of 2020. And
30:37
so that was difficult. That was in North Carolina.
30:40
So I came back to Atlanta just in time before
30:44
everything shut down, just in time for the shutdown.
30:46
And so, yeah, I don't think any of us knew what
30:49
we were doing. And so then that gets to what
30:52
we talked about earlier is making sure and having
30:55
some empathy for your team, it's your family,
30:59
number one, your family. And then secondly, your
31:02
team, your work team, and then out from there,
31:05
the whole company. And then as leaders, we have
31:08
to decide the direction that we're heading. And
31:12
nobody knew. We had no idea. And so I was involved
31:17
with the help the CEO have different scenario
31:21
plans. We had jobs from New York to California
31:24
and all in between. And so we shut everything
31:28
down and different aspects, different areas could
31:31
go back. to performing and working at different
31:35
times. I mean, when you're building a million
31:38
square foot building, it's pretty easy to be
31:41
socially distant, right? Because you could be
31:45
hundreds of feet away from the next person. And
31:48
some of the buildings that we were building and
31:50
were completing at that time turned out some
31:53
were cold storage and super freezers that were
31:55
used to store the vaccines. So they were important
31:59
to be finished. I think that, to answer your
32:02
question, was last time I had no idea what I
32:04
was doing. I mean, I think some people around
32:06
me would sell every day for Bono. The biggest
32:13
one, I think, was for COVID, during COVID. And
32:16
we figured it out, but we were forced to, because
32:18
we were not going out of business. We were keeping
32:20
going. It's amazing to hear somebody, by the
32:23
time you hit COVID here, you probably have been
32:25
a CFO for 20 -something years. And to hear you
32:28
say, I had no idea what I was doing. But what
32:32
are those things that keep you grounded in those
32:34
times? Because yes, you went through COVID, there
32:36
were real estate crashes. What are some of the
32:38
things that keep you grounded when you have to
32:41
lead through uncertainty? When you literally
32:43
have no clue what you're doing, but everybody
32:45
is looking up to you for clarity and direction.
32:49
My immediate response would be you know, how
32:51
do you stay grounded and not panic? Is it whatever
32:55
we're doing, is it life or death? And generally,
32:58
it's not. Now, COVID time, it was. And on a daily
33:02
basis at a construction site, it can be, right?
33:04
You have to be safe. So these baseline is make
33:09
sure everyone is safe, right? And then beyond
33:11
that, it's not life or death. I mean, it's if
33:15
yeah, we've got a deadline coming up or our business
33:19
is falling off the map and Yes, we need to make
33:21
sure people keep their jobs. I mean, that's close
33:25
to life or death, right, is getting people paid.
33:28
And so setting priorities and looking to the
33:32
future to make sure that our people are taken
33:34
care of. Then beyond that, what's important?
33:38
And so I think it's really staying grounded is
33:42
the mindset of taking care of people. But what
33:45
about yourself? How do you take care of yourself
33:47
in those times? Try to exercise, you know, and
33:50
try to get outside as much as possible. And so,
33:54
yeah, I mean, I love water. Oh, good. Yeah, yeah.
34:00
So there's some lakes in the Atlanta area, and
34:03
I'd love to get to the beach and go hiking. Hiking,
34:06
there's some mountains close by. OK, good, good.
34:10
Because it leads me to my last question, if I
34:13
let you go. What would you say is the best career
34:16
advice you ever received? Well, stay networked,
34:19
but also it's not just for yourself, but network
34:23
so you can help others. You know, I think that's
34:25
more fulfilling. A lot of times is when you're,
34:28
you could be working and day to day plus family.
34:32
And then if you, if we have children, there's
34:34
a lot, a lot to worry about, but stay networking,
34:37
but also network to help others find their next
34:40
role. Because, you know, at any given point,
34:43
someone's looking for a job and they may be out
34:45
of a job trying to figure out. you know, how
34:47
to make pay the mortgage or the rent or buy groceries,
34:52
look out for other people to help them. And so
34:54
I think all that is not specific to career advice
34:59
per se, more just a mindset, I think. Staying
35:03
at work, love it. And so my last question for
35:05
you, what is your favorite thing to do outside
35:07
of work? I know you already mentioned you like
35:09
water and hiking, but I'm curious, like on a
35:12
Saturday, on a Sunday, where will I find you?
35:15
Well, I would love to, we don't do this often
35:18
enough, but we have bought, she was 25 years
35:21
ago, 24, a long time ago, a little boat. And
35:24
so it's just a little motorboat that we keep
35:27
on a lake up north of Atlanta. Ideally, just
35:31
be on the water, on the little boat. And it's
35:34
on Lake Lanier, and Lake Lanier is... Oh, beautiful.
35:37
It is beautiful, but there's some giant boats
35:40
out there. So our little boat, we have to get
35:43
out early. And it's beautiful, and then we try
35:46
to get back to the marina early so that we're
35:49
not caught in all those giant waves from those
35:51
big boats. Oh, gosh. So now I know, since we're
35:54
both in the Atlanta area, where I can go borrow
35:57
a boat. Thank you. That's right. Well, thank
36:02
you so much for being on the show. This was super,
36:05
super helpful. Thank you, Bona. Waseya, thank
36:07
you. Appreciate the invitation. It's always good
36:09
to see you. And that's it for today's episode
36:13
of the Diary of a CFO. Thank you so much for
36:15
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36:18
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