Latest / Masculine Containment / 50 - He’d Been Divorced Before. He Knew Where This Was Going: John Collver’s Brotherhood Story

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50 - He’d Been Divorced Before. He Knew Where This Was Going: John Collver’s Brotherhood Story · Masculine Containment

• 0:00
  Welcome to another episode of Masculine Containment.
• 0:02
  I am privileged today to have with me John Culver, who was a member of our third container and was with us for our last initiation.
• 0:12
  And I'm excited for you to hear his story, for you to hear his insights, and for you to hear his experience of understanding Masculine Containment and what it's done for him.
• 0:21
  John, thank you so much for jumping on with me today.
• 0:23
  Thank you.
• 0:24
  Welcome to be here.
• 0:25
  Yeah, it's great to have you, brother.
• 0:27
  So, um, in order to get started, why don't you take me back to, before you joined the brotherhood, um, what was going on in your life that brought you to us?
• 0:36
  What was happening for you?
• 0:40
  Um, I had just, let's say the last four years, I had, um, left my
• 0:53
  I guess, structured religious life, lifestyle.
• 0:59
  Um, I was beginning to, what they, what they like to say is wake up.
• 1:06
  And, um, it was as if I had stepped outside of a sound studio, uh, into the middle of a freeway.
• 1:16
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:18
  Uh, and all of a sudden there were so many things in my life that opened up, but were also scary as shit.
• 1:26
  Yeah.
• 1:26
  Yeah.
• 1:26
  realizing that so many of your values and understandings and, um, directions and, and beliefs were based on dogma and doctrines that, um, really, uh, are very controlling and, and whatever.
• 1:44
  And, and, uh, I'm still a person of, you know, faith with respect to creation and, and God creator and, and, uh,
• 1:52
  And a lot of what's out there in terms of, you know, people that were in our history that have established a lot of belief systems.
• 2:07
  And, you know, I took an astrology course with Deborah Silverman.
• 2:13
  Yeah.
• 2:14
  And, uh, I've met Deborah.
• 2:15
  She's intense.
• 2:17
  Oh, yeah.
• 2:19
  Doesn't let go.
• 2:20
  Yeah.
• 2:20
  No, it's one-on-one time with her.
• 2:22
  That's a good description.
• 2:23
  Yep.
• 2:24
  Um, and you know, and so on top of that, you start finding out you don't know who the hell you are.
• 2:29
  Hmm.
• 2:31
  Uh, and that's a learning, that's a learning curve that I would have much preferred when I was in my twenties rather than my seventies.
• 2:41
  Um, but you know, what does they say?
• 2:45
  All things happen for good and, and no time is lost.
• 2:51
  So in that journey of understanding more about who I was, bumped into a guy by the name of Josh Trent.
• 3:02
  And you were on his podcast.
• 3:05
  And I had never heard the word containment before, other than, you know, a perception of it's something you get imprisoned in.
• 3:17
  You're not alone.
• 3:18
  Yeah.
• 3:37
  just like I have been the last few years, is when I see something that strikes my spirit, and I take intellect, throw it out the window, and say, go for it and see how it hits my spirit, you know, how it touches my soul.
• 3:52
  So I then went through the interview process, was accepted, and went in with, I don't know what the heck I'm doing here, what the heck this is all about, but- Can I ask you something about the before, before we get into the brotherhood?
• 4:12
  So this is interesting, I didn't realize we were gonna have a deconstruction conversation, but you're not alone.
• 4:18
  There was more than one guy in the brotherhood going through something similar.
• 4:23
  Was it affecting your relationship, that deconstruction, that before period?
• 4:29
  Well, let's put it this way.
• 4:32
  I've been married before.
• 4:35
  And you hear it, but sometimes you don't know it until you're in it.
• 4:41
  And then you step out of it and you go, holy crap, I'm just repeating myself again.
• 4:47
  And, and, um, I would think that it was, I'd probably have a, I'd be going through a divorce again if it wasn't for the fact that both my wife and I were on the same journey.
• 5:02
  So she was as open to what I wanted to explore as I was with what she wanted to explore.
• 5:08
  And, um, you know, the whole aspect was, um,
• 5:16
  if this helps you and it helps us, then I'm all for it.
• 5:22
  Um, but you know, you know, when you're going through that deconstructive period, then all, so many of your values, so many of your, um, beliefs and arguments and opinions, your, your whole frigging lifestyle is thrown upside down.
• 5:43
  Yeah.
• 5:43
  Um, you know, I,
• 5:46
  I'm from Ontario, Canada.
• 5:50
  Hockey is big here.
• 5:52
  Macho man, you know, take it in the lip, keep going.
• 5:57
  You know, just a lot of bravado.
• 6:00
  And, but it's interesting, even with, in my church background, I was in a couple of men's groups and I kept leaving with the same situation that these guys don't know who they are.
• 6:15
  We're talking the talk.
• 6:17
  We talk about brotherhood, but I don't see it.
• 6:22
  And so I'm in this quandary of knowing that there's got to be more, but I don't necessarily see it.
• 6:31
  I see a lot of mentors, et cetera, and then they fall and you're sort of going, well, so what was the belief system that they were subscribing to that I was supposed to believe that didn't carry any weight?
• 6:45
  Yeah.
• 6:45
  So you start feeling really lost.
• 6:48
  And so, yeah, we're in the midst of this deconstruction.
• 6:54
  She's probably...
• 6:57
  more deconstructed than I was.
• 6:58
  So she was kind of ahead of me.
• 7:01
  She was leading the way.
• 7:02
  Yeah.
• 7:02
  And just like you were speaking about your wife, right?
• 7:06
  They call you up on things and you get really pissed off because you're, no, that's not it.
• 7:12
  And I know this and I know that.
• 7:15
  And yet I don't understand.
• 7:18
  And even some of the teaching that I was listening to, like Eckhart Tolle,
• 7:25
  Like, being present, what the hell is that?
• 7:28
  You know?
• 7:32
  Well, if you're accurate, totally.
• 7:33
  It's sitting on stage for about three minutes before you say anything.
• 7:36
  That's right.
• 7:36
  That's right.
• 7:38
  And just being still and not having to think.
• 7:44
  And meditate, I mean, I always thought meditation was for like Hindus and guys that were, that had incense sticks and all this kind of stuff.
• 7:54
  And, you know, because the church would portray things as, you know, you've got to meditate and pray.
• 8:03
  But the whole aspect of being present and doing nothing was so new to me.
• 8:09
  It was almost like...
• 8:11
  And you counseled us many times in our different sessions.
• 8:16
  Just you're safe.
• 8:18
  You know, you don't have to react.
• 8:20
  You don't have to figure it out.
• 8:22
  You don't have to come up with the solution.
• 8:24
  It's okay.
• 8:26
  And when you're so programmed to want to jump in the middle of it and say, you know what?
• 8:32
  I'm going to stick my fingers in those spokes.
• 8:34
  I know it's going to hurt, but I'm going to stop the wheel from moving.
• 8:37
  As opposed to saying, just let it spin.
• 8:39
  Okay.
• 8:40
  Right?
• 8:42
  So, yeah, I would very clearly say that if it wasn't for the container, I don't know where our relationship would be at this point.
• 9:09
  The idea of containment just, it provides you a modality that you never had before.
• 9:19
  And I'm not perfect at it.
• 9:20
  None of us are.
• 9:22
  But it's something that I've employed.
• 9:24
  And actually, you start using it in other walks of your life.
• 9:29
  Yeah.
• 9:29
  So you're in meetings with people, and all of a sudden people are getting apeshit over stuff, and you're sitting there so cool.
• 9:37
  Mm-hmm.
• 9:37
  You know, and you're breathing and you're, anyway, it's just, it's phenomenal.
• 9:43
  So I'm kind of jumping ahead of the game.
• 9:46
  But yeah, no worries, John.
• 9:47
  I've got a question for you.
• 9:49
  Yeah.
• 9:49
  You said that if it wasn't for this period, you'd probably be going through another divorce.
• 9:55
  What patterns were present in your relationship that make you say that that would have been the outcome?
• 10:03
  Just the way I was reacting.
• 10:05
  And then.
• 10:08
  I guess the big thing would be that, and I would think that because you've already gone through a divorce, things repeat themselves.
• 10:20
  But because you've gone down that road before, you actually fast track it because you know what's going to happen.
• 10:27
  You're better on it.
• 10:28
  Yeah.
• 10:30
  Not in the best way, but you're better.
• 10:32
  That's right.
• 10:33
  I know what's going to happen next.
• 10:34
  Yeah.
• 10:35
  And so I would withdraw and distance myself and say nothing.
• 10:42
  Mm-hmm.
• 10:43
  thinking that saying nothing is better than getting mad and doing this other stuff, right?
• 10:51
  Now, we have the ability to sit down and talk.
• 10:57
  And I'm not afraid of getting called out.
• 11:01
  In fact, you know, it's kind of like I use a lot of analogies.
• 11:07
  Sandpaper, it needs two people to make the sandpaper work in order to smooth something out.
• 11:14
  If you're not both doing it together, then nothing's going to happen.
• 11:18
  So it's a great, it's a great tool.
• 11:21
  Um, and it's, it has certainly helped, I think, help us to, to go forward with what we're doing.
• 11:29
  And it's like a three-legged race.
• 11:33
  Right?
• 11:34
  Just when you think you got it down pat, you fall on your face.
• 11:38
  No question.
• 11:39
  Yeah.
• 11:41
  So prior to finding the brotherhood and before you listened to Josh, sounds like you were stuck in that pattern so many of us have been where it's like trigger, escalation, rupture, then that withdraw and coming back to repair.
• 11:53
  And it's interesting that you said you've been through it before, so you're fast-tracking it.
• 11:58
  You're not the first man to share that with me, that what they thought they were going to do is get out of a relationship that wasn't working, get into another one that would be totally different.
• 12:08
  And then they started the same pattern, seeing the same things come up.
• 12:12
  And more than one has said, it just happened faster.
• 12:16
  What was that feeling like for you when you could see it happening, when it was kind of degrading faster than the previous relationship?
• 12:24
  Well, not to discount what you're saying, but in my previous marriage, it only lasted four years.
• 12:31
  Oh, got it.
• 12:31
  Okay.
• 12:32
  Okay.
• 12:32
  And here we're over 20.
• 12:34
  Oh, got it.
• 12:35
  Okay.
• 12:35
  I should have gotten context.
• 12:37
  Yeah.
• 12:37
  Yeah.
• 12:37
  Thanks, John.
• 12:38
  So, I think for me, a lot of it was the religious part of...
• 12:46
  You know, through richer, poorer, thick and thin, sickness and health, you're just going to stick it out.
• 12:54
  But, you know, you're not supposed to be miserable.
• 12:58
  Yeah.
• 12:59
  And if I take the astrology side of it, if you're not compatible, then, you know, it's like oil and water.
• 13:08
  They're never going to blend.
• 13:09
  Yeah.
• 13:11
  Um, but we found enough, even though we had differences, it was like, Hey, our differences actually make us stronger.
• 13:20
  It's like the, it's like the yin and the yang.
• 13:24
  So rather than getting somebody who's just like me.
• 13:28
  We now have balance, which I think makes us stronger.
• 13:34
  And we're starting to do things together with music and other things that I don't know if we'd be able to have done that before.
• 13:42
  So...
• 13:44
  I appreciate you sharing that, John, and for giving me context.
• 13:47
  So you listened to Josh's podcast, or the podcast I did with Josh, you and many other men who've come to the Brotherhood.
• 13:56
  And you approached the organization, you got on the interview.
• 13:58
  Was there anything that you were hesitant around?
• 14:03
  No, I don't think I was.
• 14:07
  Again, it's kind of like,
• 14:11
  If I can use another analogy, I have a parachute, and I'm going to jump out of this plane.
• 14:18
  And I know that parachute's going to open.
• 14:21
  Now, if I happen to open the door and the plane's only three feet off the ground, then maybe I've made a mistake.
• 14:30
  But that's part of life, right?
• 14:33
  So I went in.
• 14:36
  Yeah, I went in with no fear, no hesitation.
• 14:43
  However, I got to, anybody who's listening, you are going to get your freaking eyes opened, you know, as you progress through the container.
• 14:54
  So were there times that I regretted being in the container?
• 14:58
  Yeah.
• 15:00
  No, no.
• 15:02
  Uh, it's hard when you get, um, you know, as you would give us, uh, a question in a, before we went out into a breakout, um, sometimes it's like, holy crap.
• 15:16
  Um, what am I going to, how am I going to answer that?
• 15:19
  Yeah.
• 15:20
  Um, and I'm going to do that
• 15:22
  Oh, I, you know, I, I, I really liked that last breakout.
• 15:25
  I really got along with these dudes.
• 15:28
  Now, now I'm with totally with guys.
• 15:30
  I don't even, other two guys I don't even know.
• 15:32
  Yeah.
• 15:33
  And, and, uh, how's that going to work?
• 15:35
  They don't know me, but that's the brilliance in it is, is I think, uh, I don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves, but I've never been anything, any in anything like it.
• 15:48
  Hmm.
• 15:49
  Not just for the content and how it was laid out and how it was initiated, but how guys from all over the world were all in tune.
• 16:04
  Yeah.
• 16:05
  It was like you handpicked all these guys and there wasn't really, I don't think I really met anybody that was, who didn't fit.
• 16:13
  That's intense, isn't it?
• 16:15
  I mean, honestly, as the guy running it, I'm continuously impressed by that.
• 16:20
  By the caliber and quality of men who joined this organization.
• 16:23
  It's extraordinary.
• 16:25
  And there is a commonality.
• 16:29
  I think the commonalities are all trying to be better people, but what commonalities did you see?
• 16:35
  Vulnerability.
• 16:37
  Yeah.
• 16:37
  Oh, that's a good one.
• 16:38
  Holy.
• 16:40
  There were guys, I mean, I'm...
• 16:43
  I'm 5'8", 180 pounds.
• 16:47
  There were guys there that probably were 6'4", and, you know, built like brick shithouses.
• 16:53
  Steve Anders.
• 16:54
  I did a podcast with him.
• 16:56
  He's literally 6'4", 300 pounds.
• 16:57
  Okay.
• 16:58
  But these guys, some of them were like mountain men.
• 17:02
  Yeah.
• 17:03
  And they're bawling their eyes out.
• 17:06
  And I'm sitting there going, I am so blessed that I'm with these total strangers that are willing to be so vulnerable and
• 17:16
  With no prerequisiting questions ahead.
• 17:20
  Here's the question.
• 17:21
  Get into it.
• 17:23
  And everybody was willing to pull their pants down and say, here I am, naked, standing before you.
• 17:28
  And this is how I feel.
• 17:29
  This is how it unravels.
• 17:31
  And if I had anything negative to say, it was the breakouts.
• 17:36
  Easily could have gone for an hour.
• 17:37
  That's what everybody says.
• 17:39
  Right?
• 17:41
  We'd have to have like a 50-hour program or something.
• 17:43
  Oh, totally.
• 17:44
  Yeah.
• 17:45
  Yeah, I think maybe the best format is you have weekend retreats.
• 17:50
  Yeah, believe me, you're not the first one to suggest it.
• 17:53
  Yeah.
• 17:54
  John, what did it do for you?
• 17:56
  Like for the guy who's listening and thinking like vulnerability, that sounds terrifying.
• 18:01
  What did it do for you to be with other men who were willing to be vulnerable and to be given a space in which you could be vulnerable?
• 18:09
  Yeah.
• 18:10
  It would equate to you jumping into a pool in the deep end for the first time and your dad's there saying, don't worry, I'll hold you, I'll catch you.
• 18:26
  And that's the thing that I felt there was such sincerity.
• 18:32
  that whether it's a guy from New Zealand, South Africa, Georgia, Sweden, it didn't matter.
• 18:45
  It was just like,
• 18:47
  And I suppose I can get spiritual about it, but the fact that there were so many cultures, age groups from different parts of the world that were all united with a common thread was, that's so God.
• 19:08
  I mean, I don't think there's a church organization out there that could pull something like that off.
• 19:13
  And that was totally organic.
• 19:16
  It was nothing, you know, you weren't sitting here using a computer to handpick guys.
• 19:21
  And, you know, the fact that you set up the breakouts, it was totally spontaneous.
• 19:26
  And it didn't matter what makeups you had with different groups.
• 19:31
  The same end result was.
• 19:34
  I just left with such a profound sense of joy that society isn't lost.
• 19:45
  We got men that are starting to come to the table and act like men or wanting to become like men.
• 19:53
  Yeah.
• 19:55
  And, you know, as they say, all things come together for such a time as this.
• 19:58
  And it was like, wow.
• 20:07
  That's an aha moment for me would be that container and just the whole brotherhood.
• 20:12
  I mean, you hear about brotherhood in the mafia.
• 20:15
  Yeah.
• 20:18
  Different kind of brotherhood all together.
• 20:20
  Yeah.
• 20:24
  And with the rappers and stuff like that.
• 20:28
  But this brotherhood was real.
• 20:30
  You know, if you think of the Knights of the Round Table and all those romantic things of yore, where they were talking about brotherhood, one for all and all for one, this was certainly it.
• 20:44
  And that was just amazing.
• 20:49
  And I think it would change society if it somehow got introduced into our health care system or...
• 20:57
  whatever.
• 20:58
  I love that intention.
• 21:00
  We're working on it, John.
• 21:01
  Yeah.
• 21:02
  And I agree with you.
• 21:03
  I mean, I think, um, what you described was, you know, that jumping into the pool and having your dad there, that, that like paternal masculine, um,
• 21:14
  vulnerability and being held in masculine containment, being held in, in like your vulnerability is one of the most healing forces I've ever experienced.
• 21:24
  And as you're describing it, I'm getting chills because I feel like so much of what has come together with this organization, the way that it was put together beginning, the way it kind of found me, I didn't find it has felt like divine timing and divine order.
• 21:37
  And it absolutely feels like there's the hand of a higher power on everything that we're doing today.
• 21:42
  And so I appreciate that validation.
• 21:44
  Yeah.
• 21:45
  Tell us a little bit about the container.
• 21:47
  What did you actually start doing differently?
• 21:49
  Like, what did you adopt in your life that made a difference?
• 21:56
  Everything.
• 21:57
  Because every session, episode.
• 22:06
  Yeah, every week.
• 22:07
  Every one that we did, I left with another massive...
• 22:13
  Not a nugget, a gold bar.
• 22:16
  You know, whether it's, well, just the initial container, the whole aspect of masculine containment, practicing that.
• 22:29
  Tapping.
• 22:30
  Mm-hmm.
• 22:32
  what the hell's tapping?
• 22:34
  Right.
• 22:34
  Second guy in a row on a podcast to bring it up.
• 22:38
  Like I had no idea what it was.
• 22:40
  So I looked at it and it works.
• 22:42
  Well, you know, but you think somebody's got a tech.
• 22:45
  Yeah.
• 22:47
  You know, when somebody first explained it to me, I thought they were like joking or come on, this has got so goofy, but it works.
• 22:54
  Well, I, if I'm successful in getting elected, it might look odd that I'm doing that in a council meeting, but it, uh, it's certainly, uh, yeah.
• 23:08
  And just, I mean, everything from, from, uh, every single session, like stillness, um, time in neutral.
• 23:17
  Yeah.
• 23:17
  Practicing that every day.
• 23:19
  Um, yeah.
• 23:20
  It just, yeah, everything was a new, I don't want to say modality, but it was just like.
• 23:29
  Tool maybe?
• 23:30
  Yeah.
• 23:31
  Like if you're learning how to exercise, okay, you're going to work on your quads.
• 23:35
  Now you're going to work on your back.
• 23:37
  So you got all these different tools that you can use.
• 23:41
  I'll tell you, self-forgiveness was a heavy one.
• 23:45
  Oh, you know what?
• 23:46
  Second podcast in a row.
• 23:47
  Somebody's brought that up specifically.
• 23:48
  Tell me about what the self-forgiveness ritual was like for you, John.
• 23:52
  It was hard.
• 23:54
  Yeah.
• 23:55
  It was really hard because I don't think I've spent enough time with John.
• 24:04
  And I was involved with Josh and still am to some degree.
• 24:09
  And I went through a session with him where I was integrating little John with adult John.
• 24:17
  And that was a huge integration to take place.
• 24:22
  So then you have to look at, and I've got 75 years, 75 times around the sun to sort of go back in time to forgive myself.
• 24:37
  You know, I was raised in an era where success is important.
• 24:41
  you know getting a good education and a good job and all this kind of stuff without knowing who you are is is is sad because uh you know the number of people that have gone through life as robots and then they say i can retire and you're going retire from what and to do what you're going to play golf and read uh listen to cnn the rest of your life like that's not a way to live yeah
• 25:11
  And so, you know, again, as we see society falling apart, all it means is it's an opportunity to put things back together better.
• 25:25
  And so that has to come from a foundational layer, which is the masculine feminine together, not divided.
• 25:36
  You know, we've spent so much time.
• 25:37
  Certainly not in opposition.
• 25:38
  Yeah.
• 25:38
  No, absolutely not.
• 25:40
  And, you know, understanding the yin and yang, understanding that my wife's different than me, and it's meant to be that way.
• 25:52
  And it's like, you know, riding a bike.
• 25:54
  You've got the up motion and the down motion.
• 25:56
  If you don't have one, you're not going to go anywhere.
• 26:00
  And, and the mechanics, you know, I've, I've taken counseling courses before for, uh, in marriage and a lot of it's self-talk.
• 26:13
  And at the end of the day, what, what does it really accomplish?
• 26:17
  Well, now you've got, you've got tools.
• 26:19
  You can, you can help understand not only yourself, but your spouse.
• 26:25
  And, um, yeah.
• 26:27
  One of the sadnesses that I had with the container were some guys that were, they had split.
• 26:35
  Yeah.
• 26:36
  And it was like no going back, which is sad because you're sort of going, if that had been in place earlier.
• 26:47
  But there was one guy that we had a breakout session that he'd actually moved out.
• 26:54
  but by the time we got to the end of the container, they're going to Hawaii together.
• 26:58
  I remember.
• 27:00
  Right?
• 27:01
  And it was just like, wow, like that's amazing.
• 27:06
  Yeah, from having two places.
• 27:08
  Yeah, yeah, totally.
• 27:10
  And I think it's,
• 27:14
  When you see all the discourse in our society, we see all the marriage splits, the single moms, the single dads, and all the heartache and pain, and you're going, none of that's necessary.
• 27:29
  And we've spent billions of dollars on mental health and so many other programs, and you're sort of going, guess what?
• 27:38
  We're throwing money down a black hole.
• 27:42
  There are things that work, and this concept of the container, it's not a concept.
• 27:49
  It actually is a working model, actually works.
• 27:54
  And again, I'm, maybe it's supernatural.
• 28:01
  That we can just get all these guys, and we didn't have one guy in any of the breakouts that clammed up.
• 28:09
  I'm not going to do this.
• 28:12
  Or just, you know, cut out.
• 28:16
  You know, when you're having one of our sessions, and you look at the number of people that are online, and the numbers that drop off, it was hardly none.
• 28:26
  Yeah.
• 28:27
  Yeah.
• 28:28
  Right?
• 28:28
  And even when we got into some pretty intense stuff, guys were all sitting there and I'm going, wow, look at all this.
• 28:37
  They're hanging in there.
• 28:39
  Yeah.
• 28:39
  Right?
• 28:42
  And it helps that you got a leader who can speak from his own scars.
• 28:48
  It's not somebody who's got knowledge without the experience.
• 28:53
  Yeah, I'm a student right along with everybody else.
• 28:55
  Yeah.
• 28:55
  Yeah.
• 28:56
  So John, I want to take you back.
• 28:59
  I don't want to press you on it, but I just would love to get your impression because I just talked to someone else about this.
• 29:06
  What did going through the self-forgiveness ritual do for you?
• 29:09
  And I'm fascinated because you're 75 and you've been around for a long time.
• 29:15
  You've seen a lot.
• 29:15
  You've done a lot.
• 29:16
  You're going through a deconstruction, which for those of you who are unfamiliar with the term, deconstruction is like the leaving of a belief system and deconstructing what you actually believe is.
• 29:28
  and reconstructing a new belief system for yourself, which if you've never been through it, is one of the most extraordinarily difficult things to go through.
• 29:39
  It's disorienting and challenging.
• 29:41
  I've been there.
• 29:42
  It's one of those things that I tell people I'm always going to be in a state of reconstruction and deconstruction.
• 29:49
  But what was it like going through that exercise?
• 29:52
  You said it was hard.
• 29:53
  Just give us an impression.
• 29:55
  What did it do for you?
• 29:55
  What did you find came out of that?
• 29:59
  Well, I guess the first thing was determining that I had enough value that I could come to myself and say, you know what?
• 30:13
  It's okay.
• 30:16
  Nothing's a failure.
• 30:18
  It's a learning experience.
• 30:20
  Yeah.
• 30:21
  And...
• 30:24
  And yeah, my ruts are probably deeper than a lot of younger guys.
• 30:27
  Yeah, that's, you know, but I mean, maybe, maybe, sure.
• 30:32
  But I think what happens, I think the analogy I'm using is that if you're riding a road bike and the tires are narrow and you're in a rut, you're probably going to stay in the rut.
• 30:47
  But if you can morph those tires into a mountain bike, all of a sudden you get out of that narrow rut and you're on top of it.
• 30:56
  So changing the diameter of the tire was like changing yourself and your beliefs and getting out of not just the mindset, but the repetition.
• 31:10
  And realizing how many times you repeat yourself.
• 31:14
  How many times have I looked in the mirror and gone, you idiot?
• 31:16
  Yeah.
• 31:17
  Right?
• 31:18
  Yeah.
• 31:19
  And it's, yeah, it's, it's, and, yeah, and, and forgiving yourself when you've been driven to succeed.
• 31:30
  And then when you feel you haven't succeeded, that you're a failure.
• 31:35
  And looking for hell, I don't know how much of my life was spent on the seeking the approval of man.
• 31:43
  Or seeking the approval of women.
• 31:46
  Yeah.
• 31:46
  Or seeking someone else's approval besides yourself.
• 31:48
  Right.
• 31:49
  Well, to me, that was the validation.
• 31:52
  Yeah.
• 31:52
  When somebody else patted you on the back, you're going, yeah, good.
• 32:01
  I'm of value.
• 32:03
  It's tough to do that to yourself.
• 32:06
  Pat yourself on the back.
• 32:09
  No doubt, the first time someone introduced the concept of self-forgiveness to me, or even the concept of self-love, I was so confused.
• 32:19
  And it felt so nebulous and so intangible.
• 32:24
  I didn't even understand what they were talking about.
• 32:27
  And so that's why I asked, just because I think,
• 32:30
  going through that self-forgiveness ritual for me.
• 32:33
  Like, you know, I did it during the container.
• 32:35
  You know, I do it whenever I start feeling stuck or when I start getting looping thoughts or when there's something that's just bothering me from my past.
• 32:42
  I sit down and go through that 15-minute ritual, and it shifts things.
• 32:47
  Well, I think getting back to the church, you're taught God is love.
• 32:54
  So if God is love, then if I'm not experiencing love, then there's something wrong with me.
• 33:03
  Or if I follow certain doctrine or do certain things, then I'm going to earn God's love.
• 33:11
  And so you find yourself in this performance trap.
• 33:16
  Once you get out of that and you're sort of going, okay, so now I guess that love has to come from an experience where I win something or I'm successful at something.
• 33:30
  Or your wife says, I love you.
• 33:33
  You get that validation.
• 33:35
  And it's in this period of awakening and deconstructivism you realize that.
• 33:41
  Oh, hang on a minute.
• 33:43
  I'm created by the creator who is love.
• 33:47
  And therefore I am love.
• 33:51
  Why am I thinking less than that?
• 33:56
  Right?
• 33:57
  Yeah.
• 33:58
  And so then I have to go back.
• 34:00
  And I think that was huge when our opening exercises, when you would say you are safe.
• 34:09
  And it's, yeah, I am safe in the moment.
• 34:12
  I am safe in the present.
• 34:15
  And that's huge.
• 34:19
  And therefore, in the midst of all that, you can sit there and go, I love you.
• 34:27
  You look at yourself in the mirror and go, I love you.
• 34:30
  And it's okay.
• 34:31
  Because I don't know if you know Andrew Young, Dr. Andrew Young.
• 34:37
  He was, yeah, he's an amazing guy.
• 34:40
  He's been on Josh's podcast a few times.
• 34:42
  But he talks about hermetic principles.
• 34:47
  And there's no right or wrong.
• 34:50
  There's no positive or negative.
• 34:53
  It's the yin and the yang.
• 34:54
  It's all in balance.
• 34:55
  So you do go through a good, no, not a good.
• 35:01
  You go through seasons.
• 35:02
  You go through different situations.
• 35:06
  And they may not, and even your perception of it is being bad or whatever, you got to take that out of the equation.
• 35:14
  That's where breathwork comes into play.
• 35:16
  And being still.
• 35:19
  And you know, that was at the 90 second rule.
• 35:21
  If you wait for 90 seconds and let it cool down, that emotion dissipates.
• 35:26
  And all of a sudden now you haven't ramped it up and made the situation worse.
• 35:32
  And I guess if I can use, to me, self-forgiveness is like self-containment.
• 35:39
  Yeah.
• 35:40
  Right.
• 35:41
  And, and, and again, that's just another situation where you're sitting there going, okay, in that moment, in this moment, how am I feeling?
• 35:51
  What's, what do I believe about myself that's not love?
• 35:55
  And therefore I'm going to forgive myself for believing that and get back to who I really am.
• 36:03
  And we've got a reset.
• 36:05
  Now let's continue.
• 36:07
  Yeah, now that we're present in our bodies.
• 36:09
  Yeah.
• 36:11
  So tell us now, now that you've been through the container, you've already shared some.
• 36:15
  But is there any details of how your behavior is different now, how life is different now that you'd like to share with the men who are listening?
• 36:24
  Or the people who are listening?
• 36:25
  I know I have some female listeners as well.
• 36:28
  I think a lot of it is you have memories of the breakout rooms, some of the things that guys shared, remembering their circumstances and experiences, and applying a lot of the things that we've learned in the present moment.
• 36:49
  I think the biggest thing is,
• 36:54
  Um, sometimes you think something's going really fast, but it's not.
• 37:00
  I'm actually pushing it to go fast.
• 37:03
  So that's where you take the breath.
• 37:05
  Yeah.
• 37:05
  I mean, um, just, I mean, being still and doing breath work, that, that was so out of my wheelhouse.
• 37:15
  And you're sort of like, what the heck's breathwork got to do with anything?
• 37:22
  But after you practice it and you understand it and you've got a mentor like yourself who's guiding you through it and then you're realizing how it's helping you to stabilize in that situation,
• 37:37
  And now I find myself where I've been in situations where I could have tolerated something for a little bit, which probably a lot of people would say, man, you're a really composed guy.
• 37:52
  Now it's almost as if like I'm practicing the container in the present moment and I'm diffusing it as I'm going along to the point where sometimes people have said, why answer the question?
• 38:08
  And I'm breathing.
• 38:11
  Yeah.
• 38:12
  Just being still and giving it a moment.
• 38:16
  And it's fascinating what comes out of your mouth.
• 38:21
  It totally diffuses situations, particularly if I'm going into the political realm.
• 38:28
  People want to know, right?
• 38:29
  We should share with everyone.
• 38:30
  Yeah.
• 38:31
  You are stepping into the political realm after the brotherhood.
• 38:34
  I just want everyone to know it does not mean you're going to become a politician if you join the brotherhood.
• 38:39
  But if you want to, you can.
• 38:42
  Well, let's put it this way.
• 38:43
  If all politicians had gone through the container, we wouldn't be in the shit show that we're in right now.
• 38:52
  Amen.
• 38:52
  Doesn't matter what country, province or state you live in.
• 38:57
  all men, all women have got to go through the whole aspect of what containment's all about.
• 39:04
  And we would, we'd eliminate wars.
• 39:07
  We'd eliminate all kinds of crap.
• 39:09
  Yeah, I totally agree with you.
• 39:11
  So it's a global reset.
• 39:15
  Go ahead, John.
• 39:16
  No, so basically, so now it's kind of like I've got some tools that I can use and I know that they work.
• 39:27
  And I'm still, again, you have patterns that you repeat sometimes, fight and flight or whatever responses.
• 39:38
  You now can identify them a lot quicker and take that breath and say, okay, I've just got to, excuse me, relax and be in the present and not get bent out of shape.
• 39:52
  Yeah.
• 39:53
  Yeah.
• 39:55
  If there's a guy out there who's thinking about joining the Brotherhood, but, or, or even just joining our mailing list and getting more information and he's hesitant, what would you say to that guy?
• 40:07
  If, um, I had a million dollars in my hand and I was to say, who here wants it?
• 40:15
  I don't think there'd be anybody that wouldn't want to say, I want that.
• 40:19
  So I would basically say to anybody who's listening, it's like, why are you being hesitant?
• 40:27
  You know, you wouldn't stop for a minute to grab something that's material.
• 40:34
  This is something that's spiritual and emotional.
• 40:38
  And I guess it's like somebody who's never exercised before.
• 40:44
  Yeah, you know what?
• 40:44
  You are going to get gassed.
• 40:47
  You're probably going to get sore.
• 40:50
  But it's to your benefit.
• 40:53
  And I, yeah, I can't, there's no reason not to jump in.
• 41:00
  And even for the fact that,
• 41:03
  For anybody out there who's shy, there are other people out there in the container who are shy too.
• 41:11
  A lot of introverts.
• 41:13
  Yeah.
• 41:15
  But they don't stay as introverts.
• 41:17
  Yeah.
• 41:19
  And it is absolutely spellbinding that you can take different cultures, different languages, whatever, and the denominator comes down to one.
• 41:34
  And that's man, right?
• 41:37
  And that to me was so, so, so, so cool.
• 41:43
  Was just to be with guys that were like, what time are you up at on the other side of the world?
• 41:50
  And you're involved and you're, anyway, it was just, it was amazing.
• 41:57
  So, yeah, you won't regret it.
• 42:00
  No, by no means.
• 42:02
  I want to give you an opportunity, John.
• 42:03
  Is there anything that I haven't asked or anything you want to share or anything that is still coming up for you?
• 42:11
  Not really.
• 42:12
  I mean, I know the last session we did, there was in the chat the desire to want to continue on with a subgroup.
• 42:23
  Yeah.
• 42:25
  And I think you as one person can only do so much.
• 42:32
  And it's a testimony to you that there's guys that want to take that flame and start a fire somewhere else.
• 42:40
  Yeah.
• 42:40
  Right.
• 42:41
  And I think that's phenomenal because I think it resonated with guys enough that they're saying, I don't want this to end.
• 42:51
  Yeah.
• 42:51
  Yeah.
• 42:52
  And.
• 42:52
  That impressed me.
• 42:54
  Yeah, and I think there's different guys in the groups, all different walks of life.
• 43:01
  Some were obvious counselors and mentors.
• 43:06
  But we all have circumstances that we run into in life because nothing remains constant.
• 43:14
  And what a great arena to go into when you're in a situation where you, who do I turn to?
• 43:24
  Right.
• 43:25
  Um, and I, I don't, I don't think this is a sad statement, but I've got guys that I probably felt closer with in a breakout session than friends I've known for 40 years.
• 43:40
  Hmm.
• 43:43
  Yeah.
• 43:44
  It's a testament to brotherhood.
• 43:46
  Yeah.
• 43:48
  It's phenomenal.
• 43:50
  Yeah.
• 43:50
  And maybe we should all get tattooed.
• 43:54
  You're not the first person to suggest that either.
• 43:58
  John, I just want to thank you for being here with me today, man.
• 44:02
  Thank you.
• 44:02
  I really appreciate it.
• 44:04
  My pleasure.
• 44:05
  From someone who clearly has done a tremendous amount of work and is coming from a place of wisdom and...
• 44:13
  You know, you've been around for a while and hearing this from you and hearing your reflection, it just, it means something to me.
• 44:19
  There's been several times during this podcast where I've had like full body chills when you're saying something that has really affected me.
• 44:26
  And so thank you.
• 44:28
  Thank you very much.
• 44:29
  And I hope someday our paths cross in person.
• 44:33
  Same here.
• 44:33
  Same here.
• 44:34
  We're working on that in-person thing soon.
• 44:36
  Okay.
• 44:39
  If you're listening to this podcast and you related to what John said or you want more information on the brotherhood, it would be my honor to walk this path with you, to have you in this organization, to allow you to feel the vulnerability, the connection, the brotherhood, that paternal love that John was talking about, and just how extraordinarily healing it can be.
• 44:59
  You can go to thebrotherhoodsociety.com to join our waiting list or join a container, whether it's if one's open when you go there.
• 45:07
  But either way, give us your information.
• 45:09
  We'll keep in touch with you.
• 45:11
  I send out a couple emails a week and I'd love to be able to communicate with you.
• 45:14
  Thebrotherhoodsociety.com.
• 45:16
  And thank you so much for being a listener of this podcast.
• 45:19
  It is small but growing and I want you to know you matter.
• 45:23
  I appreciate you.
• 45:24
  I watch the numbers on this thing every week and I really appreciate you being here.
• 45:28
  John, thanks again, brother.
• 45:30
  Jump in.
• 45:30
  The water's great.