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The Battle of Ideas—with Jerm · UK Column Radio

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Hello, I'm Charles Mallett with a UK column interview.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: Today.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: I have with me Jeremy nell Or you may know
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: him as Germ, a cartoonist and podcaster par excellence and
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: a man who is accustomed to asking the questions. But
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: today the boot will be on the other foot and
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: he's going to need to come up with the answers.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: Thank you very much for joining me, and a very
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: very warm welcome to UK column, Charles.
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.
• 0:33
  Speaker 4: I just want to say I actually forgot how to
• 0:37
  Speaker 4: pronounce your surname. I'm so glad you said Mallett, because
• 0:39
  Speaker 4: I was going to say Melee and make you sound
• 0:41
  Speaker 4: very fancy.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: If you're in the Northern Hemisphere, depends which side of
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: the English Channel you're on. If you're on the right
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: hand side, then you'd have been completely correct. So I
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: don't think that's not going to count against you. But
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: actually you bring me neatly as though we've rehearsed it
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: into the first question, which is to do with division.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Because what I like to do is go back some
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: time and I'd like your perspective, because you know this
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: is an international audience. It's going to be listening to
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: this but the UK column audience is largely British. You're
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: South African in your perspective as somebody growing up in
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: post apartheid South Africa, how did the country deal with
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: that process of reinventing itself after apartheid?
• 1:30
  Speaker 4: Just technically, I also grew up in a part eight
• 1:34
  Speaker 4: not just post apartheid, but during the height of it,
• 1:37
  Speaker 4: which was in the eighties. It's an interesting question. It's
• 1:41
  Speaker 4: a very very layered question because I don't think South
• 1:45
  Speaker 4: Africa has come out of it with any great degree
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: of success. There's the term like rainbow nation, which I
• 1:51
  Speaker 4: think nos Mandila coined. It really doesn't mean anything. It's
• 1:56
  Speaker 4: just marketing hype. The country in many ways is better
• 2:00
  Speaker 4: than what it was, but it's also worse than what
• 2:03
  Speaker 4: it was. It just depends on who you're asking. You know,
• 2:05
  Speaker 4: if you look at the data, one of the big
• 2:09
  Speaker 4: claims is that it benefited white people, and the irony
• 2:13
  Speaker 4: is that it you know, economically and financially, you can
• 2:16
  Speaker 4: clearly see that it didn't because the incomes were not
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: only peaking, but they were they were decreasing. Because obviously,
• 2:25
  Speaker 4: if you have a system that's isolated from the world,
• 2:28
  Speaker 4: you will run out of resources. You need to integrate
• 2:31
  Speaker 4: with the world in order to grow. And once once
• 2:36
  Speaker 4: a parteator was ended and sort of quote unquote democracy
• 2:40
  Speaker 4: began in South Africa. You can see that salaries all
• 2:44
  Speaker 4: over the place increased, including white people. So you could
• 2:47
  Speaker 4: even argue that poster apartate was better for white South
• 2:52
  Speaker 4: Africans than a partate. But crime is also exceptionally high
• 2:57
  Speaker 4: as a result poster partate, and you kind of wonder
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: why is that. Is that domestic or is it a
• 3:04
  Speaker 4: foreign fact? I don't know, but crime is unbelievably out
• 3:09
  Speaker 4: of control in South Africa, and you know, if you
• 3:12
  Speaker 4: live here, you have to be quite street wise. Now,
• 3:15
  Speaker 4: I'm not saying that it's a war zone. If it were,
• 3:18
  Speaker 4: I would have emigrated. You know, I love I love
• 3:22
  Speaker 4: South Africa. It is my home. But I also want
• 3:25
  Speaker 4: to point out that social media is not a mirror
• 3:28
  Speaker 4: image of reality. It's sort of a it's an amplification
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: of an extreme minority view. If you only followed ax,
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: you would think that this is a complete war zone,
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: and it's just it's just a it's you know, cowboys
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: and Indians gun shootouts every single day. No, that's not
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: the case at all. It's I think race relations are
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: by far better than what the media will have you believe.
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: And I think it's only on the fringe. It's in
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: certain areas, it's in pockets, and certainly, certainly there's a
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: lot of political influence in that because I think if
• 4:06
  Speaker 4: you leave people alone, they tend to get on fine.
• 4:09
  Speaker 4: And I think that is maybe not just endemic to
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: South Africa, but probably everywhere. You know, if you just
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: leave people alone, they tend to they tend to be fine.
• 4:18
  Speaker 4: You know, people get on that. People don't want to
• 4:21
  Speaker 4: fight with one another, which is why I think a
• 4:23
  Speaker 4: lot of the stuff is externally triggered. So i'm I'm
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: I'm still happy living in South Africa despite all the warts,
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: and I really do appreciate the fact that we can
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: trade with the rest of the world and travel.
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: I mean, it was very difficult in the eighties.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And in fact, you know, you bring me
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: on to what I wanted to talk about from exactly
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: that that that that reality, but specifically to do with
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: not being I suppose, for one of a better word
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: interfered with, and you cite well, I think you described
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: So Africa as being a broken country in some respects
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: and therefore the resilience that that builds. We just to
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: explain a bit more, what do you mean by that
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: and how do you see that taking effect? Sort of
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: either in a good way or a bad way.
• 5:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So I've often said that I prefer South Africa
• 5:21
  Speaker 4: as a failed state, and South Africa is a failed
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: state I think by any metric. In fact, I think
• 5:27
  Speaker 4: every African state is effectively a failed state. And I
• 5:32
  Speaker 4: like that because what it means. COVID was a great
• 5:36
  Speaker 4: example of this is that it showed that an inept ineffective,
• 5:41
  Speaker 4: useless government wasn't nearly good enough to impose a hardcore
• 5:47
  Speaker 4: vaccine mandates. I think South Africa was probably one of
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: the lowest vaccine uptakes in the world, and Africa as
• 5:54
  Speaker 4: a whole generally had a very very low vaccine uptake
• 5:57
  Speaker 4: during the COVID era. Whereas I've got know ex expat
• 6:01
  Speaker 4: friends who live in Canada and Australia and even the UK,
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: and they all said the same thing to me. You know,
• 6:07
  Speaker 4: it sucks being, you know, in a country with the
• 6:11
  Speaker 4: highly effective government, because they become very efficient at at
• 6:16
  Speaker 4: things like mandates and and locking you down so there's
• 6:19
  Speaker 4: a there's a strange, ironic sense of freedom within chaos,
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: if that makes sense. That's so, that's kind of what
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: I mean. And and I guess a byproduct of that, Charles,
• 6:30
  Speaker 4: is that it forces you to become self reliant. It
• 6:34
  Speaker 4: forces you not to trust the state because the state
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: isn't really going to be there for you. You kind of
• 6:42
  Speaker 4: you kind of have to make things happen for yourself.
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: And it's so it forces you into a into a
• 6:46
  Speaker 4: state of or into a sense of community driven collaboration.
• 6:54
  Speaker 4: You know, you have to figure things out because you know,
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: when you've got potholes in the roads and you've got
• 6:59
  Speaker 4: street lights the don't work, you have to then go
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: and fall those potholes because the government is not going
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: to do that anytime soon, and you have to figure
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: out how to make the streets, you know, look better.
• 7:09
  Speaker 4: And so generally, I think there is a sense of
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: independence therefore that comes with a failed state.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that certainly for the UK audience,
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: I think that's something that people really need to bear
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: in mind, that sort of distinction between a failed state
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: and perhaps a failing state. You know, here we're very
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: much in the pothole zone, but not having gone as
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: far as people doing something about it, that there is
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: still I think an enormous reliance upon the state in
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: whatever sort of form it takes. But so on that,
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: you know that that greater picture with resilience. I think
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: people are very quick to bemoan how pathetic younger generations
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: are and how they don't you know, they aren't growing
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: up to learn the lessons of the past and this
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: and the other. What's your take on that in not
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: not just South Africa, but sort of Southern Africa or Africa,
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: you know, I mean other parts of the world. How
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: do you see that?
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: Something I have noticed is that there is a there's
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: a strong victimhood mentality that exists, particularly in western countries
• 8:10
  Speaker 4: where where they have it, where they have everything. You
• 8:14
  Speaker 4: you sit back and your moan. You become a keyboard warrior.
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: You know, look, this is this is broken. Somebody must
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: do something about it. While I enjoy my McDonald's and
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: there's it's it's okay, I mean, that is the way
• 8:28
  Speaker 4: it is. But I think, because because there's this yo
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: yo effect of how societies work, excuse me, that decline
• 8:36
  Speaker 4: will at some point occur and then you wonder how
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: will those people handle that decline? You know, I sometimes
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: joke and I say, where Europe is now is where
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: perhaps South Africa was, you know, two decades ago, and
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: and lessons that that Europeans could learn, you know, simply
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: by looking at at our history and perhaps even the States.
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: I don't exactly know that the the the the dynamics
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: in the US, but what I do feel is that.
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 9:14
  Speaker 4: Also, if it applies to Eastern countries, this is this
• 9:18
  Speaker 4: is outside of my understanding. But I can certainly speak
• 9:20
  Speaker 4: to some degree.
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: In the West.
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: And I also want to add a disclaimer. I don't
• 9:24
  Speaker 4: know if South Africa or African countries fall under the
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: Western label. I suppose it depends on what sort of
• 9:31
  Speaker 4: criteria you want to use. Maybe I can say I
• 9:34
  Speaker 4: am Western, maybe I can say I'm not Western. I
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: don't know. But one thing is for certain is that
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: I see a lot of lazy, lazy people coming out now,
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: the sort of post two thousand generation, huge amounts of
• 9:49
  Speaker 4: sort of this TikTok Facebook reels mindset where you just
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: kind of your your hand motion becomes part of your
• 9:57
  Speaker 4: of your lifestyle. You know, just scroll, scroll, scroll, and
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: you'd end up doing nothing. And so this is is
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: a strange Joeo effect in which people once were very
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: much driven to solving their own problems are now relying
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: on other people to solve their problems, outsourcing their thinking,
• 10:15
  Speaker 4: outsourcing who they are, outsourcing their identity even and and
• 10:19
  Speaker 4: I find that happening. Yeah, also certainly in the middle
• 10:22
  Speaker 4: to upper classes. I don't know, Charles, if that is
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: if that is a geopolitical thing or cultural, or if
• 10:28
  Speaker 4: it's just the nature of wealth. I don't know, what
• 10:31
  Speaker 4: do you think.
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: We're certainly all pervasive, and I think that's the that's
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: the issue.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: I suppose.
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: It's just interesting to see how abruptly what you describe
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: of the South Africa that you grew up in and
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: can be swept away.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: By by a movement like that.
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: And I think I would say for a British perspective,
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: there's that hope that you want to look at another
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: country and see that it is different and it is
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: responding differently to those pressures because of course the other
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: thing in a way, and that with the either smaller
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: or failed idea of the state. What that does create
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: for so many African countries, there is masses of space
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: for the so called philanthropists or NGOs or whoever you know,
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: and they are able to wreak havoc for want of
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: a better term, I mean, is that is that something
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: you see? And how's that sort of in South Africa?
• 11:24
  Speaker 4: Now, yeah, it's not so much I think a consequence
• 11:28
  Speaker 4: of a failed state, but a consequence of democracy. So
• 11:32
  Speaker 4: wherever you have a democratic state, in my view, you
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: have an open gate to infiltration of the state itself
• 11:42
  Speaker 4: because you have financial interests, you have corporate interests, you
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: have technocratic public private partnership interests. You know, if you
• 11:51
  Speaker 4: look at if you look at South Africa's sort of
• 11:53
  Speaker 4: economic heart, you'll see that our minds, which is part
• 11:57
  Speaker 4: of that heart, are very much not South Africa. They
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: I mean, I think our biggest mine is called Anglo
• 12:03
  Speaker 4: American uh And and we can we can, we can
• 12:07
  Speaker 4: go down down various rabbit holes to see who's behind
• 12:11
  Speaker 4: or at the top of those minds. But what's interesting
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: is it's that's not unique to South Africa. That's unique
• 12:18
  Speaker 4: to wherever there's a democratic state. So I'm very very
• 12:22
  Speaker 4: critical of democracy as a whole. But I mean I
• 12:26
  Speaker 4: don't think I'm special in net where Plato wrote about
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: the problems with the democratic idea long time ago. So
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: I think by by virtue of a country being democratic,
• 12:39
  Speaker 4: it opens itself up to the infiltration and interests of
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: those who don't really care about sovereignty, because at the
• 12:48
  Speaker 4: end of the day, the president of a democracy is
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: just is just a rent seeking for at least four
• 12:52
  Speaker 4: or five years, and so his entire existence is based
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: around those four or five years and hoping that you
• 12:59
  Speaker 4: can get another four or five years through excellent marketing.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, very well put.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: And of course the other point about democracy really is
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: that it should be a system that is accountable. And
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: certainly for you, part of holding a democracy or indeed
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: a system to a current has been via your cartoons,
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: which obviously you know you've been doing for a long
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: long time. To talk about your how you broke into
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: that space and what pushed you to do that in
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: the first place.
• 13:30
  Speaker 4: Firstly, your opening there was was great. I think democracies
• 13:35
  Speaker 4: also do have a good side, and they allow for,
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: or they should they should allow for the critique or
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: the criticism of authority. I mean, you can't do that
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: in China now. I like China for many reasons, but
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: one of the reasons that I don't like China is
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: that you can't really criticize the government. So here you've
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: got to choose your battle. So I would do terribly
• 13:58
  Speaker 4: as a cartoonist in China. Thankfully, I can do pretty
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: well in South Africa because we have such a useless
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: government that they can't even sue me because it's just
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: it just doesn't really work all that well, you know,
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: in this kind of setup. So I can criticize the
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: government quite quite easily and quite freely. In actual fact,
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: I've got a lot more freedom in my work here
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: than I do in many countries. I would even go
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: as fasts saying Charles that I've probably got more freedom
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: in my work than in your country based on what
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: I understand. I could be wrong, but how I got
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: into it was was really very boring, and it was
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: just a case of I've always loved cartoons from a kid.
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: I used to draw my Bible in Sunday school, and
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: I remember just wanting to just draw cartoons. And when
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: I was retrenched from my corporate job in two thousand
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: and five, I was working in sort of mobile research
• 14:56
  Speaker 4: and technology and at that stage, smartphones hadn't ready come
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: out yet, so to still the old sort of nochias
• 15:02
  Speaker 4: with buttons on them. When I was retrenched, because the
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: whole industry was changing, I figured, well, maybe I could
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: make a career out of this. I am a failed
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: art student, so I had something behind me, but perhaps
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: it was pretty punk rock. You know, to go into
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: art when you fail art, and I was advised never
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: to go into art. So I thought, well, this is
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: this is quite rebellious. Maybe maybe I can make this work.
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: And yeah, and I did, and a bunch of editors
• 15:28
  Speaker 4: sort of bit and I started having my work published.
• 15:31
  Speaker 4: And I wasn't really making political comments or any type
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: of sort of current affair based based commentary at that
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: stage until a couple of years later when I was
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: contacted by a major newspaper and they wanted me to
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: draw daily for them, and they said, look, we like
• 15:48
  Speaker 4: your style. Would you like to comment on the politics
• 15:50
  Speaker 4: of the day. And I said, look, I don't really
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: even know where I stand or what I believe in
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: or anything like that, and they said and and my
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: editor at the time had a ready great comment which
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: I've never forgotten, and he said, look, knock them down
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: when they're up and help them up when they're down.
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: And that kind of formed the foundation for what was
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: going to be my political career. And after that, I
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: you know, I won awards and published books, and eventually,
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: in the sort of twenty tens, I started formulating my
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: kind of my ideological outlook. However, I don't speak only
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: for myself here, but I think my ideological outlook completely
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: changed around twenty twenty, like I think many many others
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: around the world, when you suddenly realized, wait a minute,
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: something's not right yet.
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: So that's the sort of the backdrop of my cartooning story.
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: And I mean I've published I think close to ten
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: thousand cartoons since then, and then they've been translated and
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: been to different publications around the world and all that.
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: So it just became a love that I just pursued.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: Perhaps hard to say with any certainty of hitting objectivity
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: in hindsight, but as that period I'm developed before we
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: got to twenty twenty, were you aware that you were
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: developing in so far as how you were thinking about
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: things before you were translating them into cartoon format.
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: Yes, I would have. I would have classified myself. I
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: think for the longest time as libertarian or sort of
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: kind of conservative ishue. But I've come to realize that
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: those terms don't mean anything anymore, Charles. A lot of
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: this stuff just these are just false dichotomies or as
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: I forget who it is now somebody said a few
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: years ago, false binaries. But basically these are I mean,
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: we started off the conversation about division, and I think
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: these are interesting divisions.
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: Are left right.
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: I don't think the people to the left and right
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: of me are my enemies. I think those who are
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: trying to take away my sovereignty and my ability to
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: live a free life. I think those are my enemies.
• 17:59
  Speaker 4: Not people who arguing about gender, because we can still
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: we can still chat about that, and they're not They're
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: not removing anything from me, you know. So, so I
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: think at that stage, before twenty twenty, I didn't really
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: consider the sort of interwovenness of the of the international.
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: Web of.
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: What's the what's the word I'm looking for, Charles, This
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: this sort of deep dark connectivity of the only garcle hierarchy,
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: shall I say, of how things? For example, I would
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: have thought in let's say twenty sixteen, this s Bicker year.
• 18:40
  Speaker 4: I would have thought that the Kruger National Park, which
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: is our big our biggest game park and one of
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: the biggest game parks in the world, and I might
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: add probably one of the happiest places in the world.
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: I thought that was just.
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: You know, run by the government and and you know,
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: and it had people doing their best to keep it operational.
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: Post twenty twenty, I come to realize through research that
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: it's not really run by the Southern government. It has
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: un fingers in it, and it has you know, sieitis
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: for example, and it has so many other interests that
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: don't really care about animals or South Africa, but rather
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: I don't know, possible land opportunities and other things. You know,
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: It's never as simple as oh, it's just a park
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: that's run by the government. It's more complicated than that.
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: And that's the nature of everything. Everything is more nuanced
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: and more complicated. And that's kind of where I found
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: myself heading off to twenty twenty.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you certainly have more gets to that in a second,
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: but you're absolutely right, and I think you scratching beneath
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: the surface almost anywhere and you will find something that
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: perhaps you didn't expect or you didn't want necessarily to find.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: And you spoke a moment ago about South Africa fea
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: more free than the UK, perhaps in terms of public
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: publishing materials, more not. I mean, I think I would
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: absolutely agree with you, But on the censorship front, which
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: is now such a hot topic, particularly in this sphere,
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: it was that something that you did battle with at
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: all at that time, sort of prior to twenty twenty.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: Was censorship a really a consideration for you or indeed
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: for the media in South Africa?
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: Yes, I mean for the longest time I was working
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: in the mainstream media, and the mainstream media itself self censors,
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: and in many ways, self censorship is actually more distructive
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: than a state sanctioned censorship because what it does, I'm
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: sure you'll agree, excuse me, is that it causes a
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: collective sense of silence of people not wanting to discuss anything,
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: and nobody's nobody's actually forcing them to do that. They're
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: just choosing not to speak about things. And and so
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: you start kicking the can down the road, and you
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: start sweeping things under the rug, and you really shouldn't
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: have to. So I found myself in a situation where
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: I was self centering because there are there are a
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: couple of things in South Africa that you just can't do.
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: And then the publications themselves would also get worried about
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: certain things, and not even not even hot button issues
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: like let's say, I don't know unions. You know, I
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: found myself criticizing unions, and the certain newspapers would think,
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: this is a little bit you know, edgy, We're going
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: to get too much pushback from the unions, so let's
• 21:43
  Speaker 4: not run something like that, you know. Or I found,
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: for example, in twenty twenty before I mean one of
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: the I think that is maybe the last year that
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: I was working in the mainstream media as a cartoonist.
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: I was drawing for one of the largest papers in
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: the country and it was just before lockdowns.
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: I think it was.
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: I think our lockdowns came in the same week as
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: your lockdowns in the UK, and about two weeks prior
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: to that, I drew our president pulling a mask over
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: his eyes and saying something along the lines of we
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: are ready. Because at that stage I kind of thought
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: that this was a real thing. I kind of thought
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: maybe there's a bit of overreaction, but it was a
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: real thing. The paper decided not to publish it. They
• 22:31
  Speaker 4: wanted a sense of this because I thought it was
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: an unfair criticism of the president, which is absurd, but
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: not just that. Two weeks later, on live TV, he
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: did exactly that. He pulled the mask over his eyes
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: accidentally and he's he fumbled, and it became a big
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: joke and a big meme. So so the joke was
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: that in many ways that I, you know, I the
• 22:51
  Speaker 4: what's what's that saying? Whether where reality becomes or humor
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: becomes reality or something to that effect. But I had
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: predicted accidentally what was going to happen, and it should
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: have been published. It shouldn't have been self censored. And
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: it wasn't long after that when when I was fired
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: because the publication felt that this was a serious thing
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: and we shouldn't joke about it. And that's not even
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: state sanctioned censorship. So now we now we see this,
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: this this weird domino effect of fear perpetuating fear, which
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: is I think very destructive.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: Huhould say and the self censorhip were absolutely right, and
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: I think it applies to more than just censorship, because
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: going back to lockdowns, and certainly what we saw here
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: was the the insinuation that something ghastly was about to
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: happen and that the government really desperately trying to hold back.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: And then the next thing you knew was that organizations,
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: and the one that springs to mind here was the
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: church was shutting the door.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: Before it had even been asked.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: Yes, and so yes, you're you're, you're completely right, and
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: and you know, it's a very dangerous area on the
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: self censorship. But this brings me into you know, what
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: Germ warfare really is all about, which is, as you
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: quite rightly describe it, the information war. Now, I think
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: my feeling is that it absolutely is an information war,
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: but in large part the people that are i suppose
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: caught up in it, that the Blob don't appreciate that
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: it's an information war because they have no idea of
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: the manipulation of the information that they are receiving. Now,
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: going back to that time in twenty twenty, and you know,
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: looking towards where you have gone with German warfare, what
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: was it that did push you towards you know, the
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: direction you've gone in and realizing to what extent there
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: was this information war.
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: I think the whole thing with the lockdowns, I think
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: that was for many people just a trigger. For example,
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: let's just start at the most basic. I'd said a
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: moment ago that Urn lockdown started in the same week
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: as your lockdowns. How how does that even happen? Is
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: it just coincidence, which the average quote unquote normally would
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: would think, Oh, you know, it's just the government's caring
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: about their people. Well, most of the world did this
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: very coincidentally. Then in that case, I mean, it's one
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: hell of a coincidence that the presidents are just announcing
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: lockdowns all over the place using the same language social distancing,
• 25:31
  Speaker 4: a term that I'd never in my life heard before
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: twenty twenty. It turns out that it was used in
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: a movie. It came out, I think in twenty eleven
• 25:39
  Speaker 4: or twenty twelve. I think it's called contagion, which I
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: had never heard of, and then I watched it during lockdown,
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: and it freaked me out because it was exactly the
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: same thing. It was a coronavirus outbreak. They had to
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: people had to get locked in their homes, and the
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: solution was a vaccine. I think it was in the movie.
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: It's freaky, and I remember I remember thinking, okay, all right,
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: you know, virus from a wet market. My understanding at
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: that stage was extremely primitive of it's it's those discussing
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: Chinese again, you know, with their with their with their
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: blood everywhere and their fith filth and viruses and bacteria
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: and everything, just you know, jumping onto people. I mean,
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: that's kind of what I thought, because I just had
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: no knowledge of what you know of reality.
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: Uh.
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: And then very quickly I started thinking about this, like
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: what northern Italy, there's this, there's this weird outbreak. And
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: then suddenly Trump's announcing closure of flights with China, and
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: I'm and I'm that stage. I didn't realize that perhaps
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: there's this there's an anti China narrative that's that's coming
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: from somewhere, and suddenly everybody's getting locked down at the
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: same time. And then within a few months I found
• 26:48
  Speaker 4: myself questioning the very nature of reality, like what, how
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: how does this even happen? How does the whole world
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: do this at the same time. There has to be
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: some sort of top down uh, collaboration.
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: And and then and then then when you start looking
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: into it, you go, okay, I see here, so the
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: who didn't you know? And then you start you start
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: joining lots and lots of dots, and then of course
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: when you speak about it, you're not quite sure what's
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: going on, and people are like, it's just a conspiracy theory,
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: you're just a nutcase. Okay, but explain, explain the most
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: basic things.
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, how how? How?
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: And nobody's able to give an answer, and so then
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: you you know, I find myself just digging more and
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: more and more. And then in my podcast, which I
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: started in twenty nineteen, just by the way, as an
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: extension to my cartoon work, it's just a just an
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: expansion of of of ideas, which is what cartoons are,
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: you know, They're just ideas that are on paper. And
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: so I decided to put this into podcast form. And
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: and then a guest might mention, uh, something that doesn't
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: seem in any way connected to a coronavirus, and then
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: suddenly that leads to another a train of thought that
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: makes sense, and then before you know it, Charles, I'm
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: sitting you know, discussing concepts like like who controls Europe?
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: And it all started with lockdown, you know, And and
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: then and then I suddenly realized, Okay, so there must
• 28:18
  Speaker 4: be there must be some truth to this. I'm sure
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: there's a lot of nonsense. Yeah, also, and so like
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: a like a silver I've gotta filter through what's what's
• 28:25
  Speaker 4: true and what's not true. But but the point is
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: the the the the shadow that gets cast over this
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: is that nothing is really what it seems, whether by
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: design or emergence or a combination. But there's a lot
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: of fabrication of of what you think is is real.
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: And you suddenly realize that the Matrix was not a movie,
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: but it was a documentary, you know what I mean?
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: I do.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of the audience will will absolutely
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: understand exactly what you mean. But and so go back,
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: you know, because that's such an interesting transition period from
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: having started a podcast in twenty nineteen and then and
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: then to take that forward and realize that your view
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: was what it was from twenty twenty. But those around
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: you that were contact either within or through the mainstream media,
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: did you find anybody there that was similarly questioning things?
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: Or was it it was similar to the to the UK,
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: where there was just you know, there's kind of there's
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: one way with this, and that's.
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: That very few Charles, very very few. Nobody wants to
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: be labeled to see, this is the problem. People are
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: very scared of being ostracized, you know. So I I'm
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: trying to think were I got the concept of the cathedral.
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: I think it was Mench's Molbug what's his real name
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: forget now, a great sort of philosophical thinker, but he
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: goes by the name of Mench's Molbug online and he
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: he wrote a lot about something called dark enlightenment and
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: whatever else, all these interesting philosophies. But he made a
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: very good analogy. He compared what we're talking about now
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: to the cathedral. Cause of the cathedral, and if you
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: go against the doctrine of the cathedral, you become an apostate,
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: you get kicked out. And and what what what makes
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: the cathedral? Probably a combination of government, media, and academia.
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: And that is not necessarily a collaboration of the three
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: that could all be working independently, but kind of their
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: feed off one another, just by virtue of their position
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: in the establishment, in the established space, in conventional space.
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: Uh.
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: And you know, like the media will will reference academia
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: when it's talking about contagion or something like that, and
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: the government will will amplify that by making announcements, et cetera.
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: So they kind of all feed on one another constantly,
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: and if you question that, you know, you get kicked out,
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: you get shunned, you get called a conspiracy theorist. And
• 30:59
  Speaker 4: people are very scared of that. People don't want to
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: be kicked out. They don't know what to do once
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: they're outside the doors. You know, where do I go
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: from here? You know, now my people are inside there
• 31:08
  Speaker 4: and I'm out here and I'm alone.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: And so.
• 31:13
  Speaker 4: It's very difficult, very very difficult to challenge an authoritative
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: view on something.
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: You know, this came from.
• 31:23
  Speaker 4: A wet market. That was the view in twenty twenty.
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: This was a wet market. Then towards the end of
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: twenty twenty, people sort of going, but hold on, maybe
• 31:29
  Speaker 4: it's a lablak, which I think is also part of
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: a psychological operation to some degree, but none Nonetheless, anybody
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: in twenty twenty saying, oh, maybe this was leaked from
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: a laboratory. No, no, no, that's just bonkers. That's bonkers.
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: But now it's official US government policy. It's no longer bonkers.
• 31:49
  Speaker 4: And now suddenly you have hordes of what I call
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: person personality cultists, because not everybody who supports Trump is
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: a personality cultist, but there is a strong person that
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: to cult that's attached to Trump. It's an amazing thing
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: to watch. They will support. He can say anything, and
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: suddenly they'll change their position that they previously had and
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: now agree with them. And so you know, it's kicking
• 32:10
  Speaker 4: the can down the road again. Now suddenly the lablik
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: is a real thing. But the point I'm making is
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: that if you mentioned it in the middle of twenty twenty,
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: you are considered a conspiracy theorist.
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: You know, and so and so.
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: What I find is that so few people want to
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: go outside of that Overton window. They don't want to
• 32:33
  Speaker 4: They don't want to go anywhere near what would be
• 32:35
  Speaker 4: considered unacceptable speech. We need to be within the boundaries
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: of acceptable speech. I think it was Noam Chomsky who
• 32:42
  Speaker 4: said that a wonderful way to control the narrative is
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: by is by knowing where the boundaries of the narrative
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: are and encouraging fierce debate within those parameters, so that
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: even people inside those parameters look like they're arguing for
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: what's true. But meanwhile, the truth is sitting outside of
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: those you know, those parameters, and and I think that's
• 33:04
  Speaker 4: a classic example of of what's been happening over the
• 33:06
  Speaker 4: last few years. People are scared to be outside of
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: that Overton window. They don't want to be outside of
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: the doors of the cathedral. And so therefore you'll always
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: find yourself as a minority view if you if you're
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: going against that sort of conventional or established thought.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, indeed, and on that, you know, going outside of
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: established though. You've just referred to psychological operations, and you've
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: spoken to an inordinate number of people know by your podcast,
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: of all sort of colors and creeds and philosophical beliefs.
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: What to you is is at the heart of a
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: successful psychological operation.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, how, how is it done? And
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: to what effect? I suppose, I don't know.
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: I'm still trying to figure that one out. I don't know, Charles,
• 33:59
  Speaker 4: how it's possible that people around me, and I guess
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: you know you'll say the same thing. I'm sure, But
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: how is it possible that so few people around me
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: can see through some of the stuff? How is it
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: that the majority don't?
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: How?
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: How is it that you we could climb on an aeroplane,
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: let's serve one hundred and eighty people or something, and
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: everybody's wearing a mask and unquestioning, They're just wearing it,
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: you know, Okay, I'll wear a mask and and they
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: don't question it. They just think this is what this
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: is what you must do. And the handful of people
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: that do go this doesn't make any sense. You know,
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: even if even if even if it was a real virus. Okay,
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: let's just let's just assume that even if there is
• 34:46
  Speaker 4: a real virus traveling around in the air, a cloth
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: mask does nothing. And any sane person knows this. You
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: can just open a book from when you're at school,
• 34:56
  Speaker 4: a biology book to see this.
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: This.
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: You know the scale of of what these things are
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: or claim to be. But you know, everybody just like
• 35:06
  Speaker 4: sheep cattle lining up for you know, for the slaughter,
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: they just happily stand in a line and and just
• 35:13
  Speaker 4: go through that. And it's something that is as that
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: has been something I've been trying to figure out, and
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: that's why I've spoken to people like Matias Desert and others.
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: Peter Bregan also to try and figure out how is
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: it that people just don't question things in the main?
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: You know, why is it always, as Matias Desert said,
• 35:33
  Speaker 4: around thirty percent of people will question and try and
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: see beyond. And will it ever go beyond thirty percent?
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: It doesn't really seem likely because if you noticed, now,
• 35:44
  Speaker 4: people seem to be falling back into those into those
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: sort of dream like states again when it comes to
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: various various issues, sudden suddenly the people that you thought
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: were quote unquote awake on ow, you know, falling asleep again.
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: And how like, how does this happen? This is something
• 36:02
  Speaker 4: I don't know, it's it's it's for me. It's fascinating,
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: And I certainly appreciate the input from people like matyas
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: and and people like Peter Briggan, who they talk about
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: free floating anxiety and the need, the need then to
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: be led. And perhaps perhaps that's what Yuri Besmonov was
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: referring to back in his Great Interview. I think it
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: was nineteen ironically nineteen eighty four.
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: I think it was with.
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: So Jedward Griffin. I think when you said that when
• 36:34
  Speaker 4: you have people in a state of anxiety or nervousness,
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: or or uncertainty, they're they're malleable. You can control them
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: with a lot more ease rather than people who are
• 36:47
  Speaker 4: you know, like for example, the LGBTQ agenda is about
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: creating confusion within identity when you when you don't know
• 36:54
  Speaker 4: who you are, you can become controlled quite easily because
• 36:58
  Speaker 4: you no longer have controller yourself because you don't know
• 37:02
  Speaker 4: who or what you are. And I think that can
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: be expanded and amplified into sort of a collective also,
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: and maybe maybe that plays into the idea that you
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: just have masses of sheep. I don't want to say
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: mass psychosis, by the way, because my tears was very
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: clear that it's not a psychosis necessarily, it's more like
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: a hypnosis, and people like David Ike, for what it's worth,
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: have also said much the same thing.
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think it's very difficult to go back
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: and be certain about anything that's written historically. But of
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: course there is very little to suggest that those percentages
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: that you refer to have ever been any different, and
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: that human nature is just such that we are structured
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: as society to be predisposed to either behave.
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: Like this or like that.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: Now, I yes, I mean you identify something very pertinent
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: with the suggestion that people are, for want of a
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: better phrase, sort of falling back to sleep. How does
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: that fit in with your categorization of the various colored
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: pills you articulate, I think very well, the red, black,
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: and white pilled sort of elements of the population. How
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: do you see that fitting in with the falling back
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: to sleep thing?
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: Okay, so just for clarity what those polls mean. They
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: obviously come from the matrix. The blue pool is the
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: waters as you think it is, right, you wake up
• 38:31
  Speaker 4: and what you see is what you get. And of
• 38:33
  Speaker 4: course when you take the red pull, as the metal
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: fall goes, you open the curtain, you pull back the
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: curtain and you see what's really going on behind the scenes.
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: But the problem with that, and this is what sort
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: of Internet culture has has kind of expanded on because
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: the movie didn't really do this. But if you get
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: too red pulled, so to speak, it can become quite
• 38:57
  Speaker 4: depressing because you start seeing a lot of nefarious activity
• 39:03
  Speaker 4: and and sort of cynical behavior, and and it's very dark,
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: and you can get caught up in depression and nihilism
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: and that and that that can lead you to what's
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: what would be known as the black pool, where it's
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: kind of defeatist and you you don't really see a
• 39:20
  Speaker 4: point to anything. You may just pour a glass of
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: wine and enjoy the enjoy the decline. But that's a
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: I think that's that's being a loser. I think that
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: that is a terrible, terrible way to approach life. I
• 39:32
  Speaker 4: just I don't want to be around people like that.
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: It's it's just too it's just too depressing. And so
• 39:38
  Speaker 4: the white pool is basically then the follow on from
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: the blackpool. When you realize, well, hold on a second,
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: I've got all this information. I feel more enlightened. Now
• 39:48
  Speaker 4: what can I do with it? And it's it's it's
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: about overcoming, and that then leads you to things like, well,
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: let me wake up with a purpose. What am I
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: going to do today? Am I going to be defeated?
• 40:01
  Speaker 4: Am I going to be beaten today? No, I'm going
• 40:03
  Speaker 4: to I don't know. Let's just let's start off with
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: most basic things. I'm going to eat. I'm gonna eat
• 40:07
  Speaker 4: better so that I don't become fat and and and
• 40:10
  Speaker 4: diabetic and and you know, and get cancer. Let me
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: let me take control of my health. Let me go
• 40:16
  Speaker 4: to the gym and or get fit, or go for
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: a run. Let me go outside in the sun, we
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: go back into nature. You know, all the all these
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: kinds of things. These are white pool These are ways
• 40:25
  Speaker 4: to win. It's about it's about not being defeated. Uh
• 40:31
  Speaker 4: and and I think everybody can very easily and probably should,
• 40:34
  Speaker 4: go through a black pool phase.
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: But but you know, get out of it as quick
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: as possible.
• 40:39
  Speaker 4: Because I was on antidepressants in twenty twenty, and I
• 40:42
  Speaker 4: was taking all sorts of pharmaceuticals and and I realized
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: that this is no good, This is no good. And
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: uh and and I kind of woke up and made
• 40:52
  Speaker 4: the choice to to take control of my of my
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: life and of my personal being. You live once, make it,
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: make it meaningful and and and so that led me
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: to to seeing so much good again within that darkness.
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: You know that that that you see when you pull
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: back the curtain and you and you see, you see
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: reality for what it is. And and then suddenly you
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: can you can take a more I don't know, you
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: can take a more marcus aurelious approach and go, well,
• 41:22
  Speaker 4: I'm not going to let that, actually, you know, break me.
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: I'm going to try and take those opticles and turn
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: them into into features. You know, I'm going to overcome
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: them and and I'm going to succeed. And and I
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: think that is at the heart. It plays into the
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: idea again of self reliance and independence. And you can
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: kind of maybe see how that horseshoes into the whole,
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: into the whole celebration quote unquote to some degree of
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: a failed state, because in many ways I don't want
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: to live in a fail state either. By the way,
• 41:56
  Speaker 4: you know, it would be nice to have things working,
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: you know, it would be nice to have trains that
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: that are safe and that can get from point out
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: to point b, you know, and buses and all that
• 42:04
  Speaker 4: kind of stuff. But there is there's also a reason
• 42:09
  Speaker 4: to to to to to welcome adversity and uh and
• 42:15
  Speaker 4: I think and I think that's part of the white
• 42:17
  Speaker 4: pul mindset. So for example, people around me who who
• 42:22
  Speaker 4: did perhaps wake up during the COVID era, many have
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: stayed awake, and that's wonderful. But those who seem to
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: be falling asleep again, I can decide how how badly
• 42:37
  Speaker 4: I want to be around them.
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: I can I can you know, I.
• 42:39
  Speaker 4: Can either cherish their their friendship if it's worth it,
• 42:42
  Speaker 4: or you know, spend less time with them so that
• 42:45
  Speaker 4: so that I don't get that sort of negative influence,
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: or I can you know, continue trying to to win
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: them over, which is part of the battle of ideas.
• 42:55
  Speaker 4: So I don't know if that answers your question. It's
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: a very very very sort of philosophical answer.
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm certainly not putting it out there suggesting
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: there is an answer to it, but I think it's
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: completely fascinating and everyone will have their own feelings on
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: what you just said, and I think it's very powerful,
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: But just on the.
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: Specifics of it.
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: And you you've alluded to that you were using pharmaceutical
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: products that you're not using anymore. What have been the
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: big things for you that have actually really affected change
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: in your life over that period that you really do
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: sort of point to as being the big ones.
• 43:29
  Speaker 4: I guess another way of asking that question is what
• 43:33
  Speaker 4: sort of big red polls have you swallowed and.
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: You know, and been white pulled on.
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: I think for me, Charles, just very very anecdotally speaking,
• 43:46
  Speaker 4: health has been a big one. So having taken antidepressants,
• 43:50
  Speaker 4: which are addictive and are a terrible thing, and nobody
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: should stay on those things for any length of time,
• 43:57
  Speaker 4: you know, and things like proton pumpany and all that
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: kind of stuff. Right I was taking all of that
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: stuff prescription, and it's very difficult to get all that.
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: Off that stuff.
• 44:06
  Speaker 4: But once you realize that you actually can control your
• 44:09
  Speaker 4: health through your through environment, through your diet, better sleeping,
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: try try not to get too stressed out. You know,
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: it's an ongoing journey. There's no overnight fix. It's this
• 44:22
  Speaker 4: is a personal thing. This is a journey that each
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: person decides to take upon them you know, upon themselves.
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: But you know, weaning myself off antidepressants and and and
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: other and other pharmaceuticals was not easy. But I was
• 44:36
  Speaker 4: replacing a lot of that with routines, you know, things
• 44:40
  Speaker 4: like atomic habits that James clear writes about and forming
• 44:44
  Speaker 4: healthy habits. And also just on a personal level, finding
• 44:51
  Speaker 4: myself really loving my wife, you know, waking up in
• 44:55
  Speaker 4: the morning and looking at it and going, you know what,
• 44:56
  Speaker 4: I'm so blessed to wake up next to this beautiful woman,
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: you know. And when you're taking pharmaceuticals and you and
• 45:03
  Speaker 4: you're wired, and you're so caught up and in the
• 45:05
  Speaker 4: big thing that's going on the whole time, you lose
• 45:08
  Speaker 4: track of what's important and of what matters. And I
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: just went straight back to those fundamentals, the things that
• 45:17
  Speaker 4: just make everything worth living. And then you know, the
• 45:20
  Speaker 4: words of I think it's Stephen Corey. I think that's
• 45:22
  Speaker 4: his Kobe. Is that his name, the guy who wrote
• 45:25
  Speaker 4: the Seven Habits Profound Profound book. You know, it's a
• 45:28
  Speaker 4: self help book, and and most of it's chunk, you know,
• 45:31
  Speaker 4: in the self help category. But something that he that
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: I've never forgotten that he that he said in that
• 45:36
  Speaker 4: book is you can't you can't win the big battles.
• 45:40
  Speaker 4: You can fight them, but you can't win them. You
• 45:42
  Speaker 4: can't change your government. You you, Charles, You can't go
• 45:46
  Speaker 4: and change your government.
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: You can't.
• 45:51
  Speaker 4: Influence change other than your immediate environment, right, You can
• 45:55
  Speaker 4: only change what's immediate to you.
• 45:58
  Speaker 3: You can fight the bigger battles. And that's what we
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: are doing.
• 46:00
  Speaker 4: You know, you and I were chatting, and this goes
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: out and people think about it and they you know,
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: and they get involved in things and all that, but
• 46:06
  Speaker 4: that's outside of your control. And it's and it's that
• 46:11
  Speaker 4: it's that paradigm shift that that occurred to me during
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: the COVID era, that I realized I can't change the lockdowns.
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: They're gonna happen whether or not I'm getting angry and
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: upset about them, and I end up losing. You know,
• 46:23
  Speaker 4: I'm the one who gets no stupid night and I'm
• 46:26
  Speaker 4: freaking out. And this is you know, nobody high up cares.
• 46:31
  Speaker 4: I'm just a number, but I care. And so that
• 46:34
  Speaker 4: was when I realized I got to focus inwards again
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: and influence change on that which is close to me,
• 46:43
  Speaker 4: and that, for me is what is what became pretty powerful,
• 46:46
  Speaker 4: if that makes sense, And then you can, you know,
• 46:48
  Speaker 4: then by extension you can fight the bigger battles and
• 46:51
  Speaker 4: realize that those are long term games.
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: Very powerful and very candid answer. Thank you very much
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: for that and will give people a lot to think
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: about on the personal level. And exactly like you articulate,
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: you know, controlling the things that are within your gift
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: to control and therefore to make yourself happy as a
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: result of it. That said, you have of course spoken
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: to a huge number of people who are doing all
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: sorts of interesting and different things. Are you seeing areas
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: within which there is for want of a better word,
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: success in terms of pushback or you know, rejection of
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: the new world order or whatever one might want to
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: describe you seeing that sort of thing occurring.
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: So you know these sorts of yeah, successes.
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: I think so, I think.
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: I think again, it plays into that thirty percent number
• 47:42
  Speaker 4: that Matthias spoke about. I think that maybe a third third,
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: certainly on half. But I mean it doesn't really matter.
• 47:52
  Speaker 4: I think there is a small number of people in
• 47:56
  Speaker 4: my circles that are certainly thinking differently to what they
• 47:59
  Speaker 4: did a few years ago, and are certainly behaving and
• 48:02
  Speaker 4: acting differently. I know for a fact, for example, and
• 48:06
  Speaker 4: I think this is a big win. A number of
• 48:09
  Speaker 4: people in my circles no longer believe in vaccines, not
• 48:12
  Speaker 4: just COVID, but any vaccines. I don't believe in any
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: vaccines anymore. If you had asked me about vaccines in
• 48:18
  Speaker 4: twenty nineteen, yes, sure, yeah, vaccines work absolutely. You know
• 48:23
  Speaker 4: now I do not trust any pharmaceutical claim about any vaccine,
• 48:28
  Speaker 4: knowing what I know now, and if you just think
• 48:32
  Speaker 4: about it, without even going into the science, how did
• 48:36
  Speaker 4: humanity survive for so long without the magic of vaccines? Well, diet, lifestyle,
• 48:44
  Speaker 4: in all the environmental factors that get lost in these
• 48:47
  Speaker 4: scientific discussions.
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: People get so caught up in their lane.
• 48:53
  Speaker 4: Shall I say that they just don't have the ability
• 48:56
  Speaker 4: to zoom out and just look at the big picture
• 48:58
  Speaker 4: and realize you don't actually need a vaccine in order
• 49:03
  Speaker 4: to be healthy. The idea that you that you have
• 49:05
  Speaker 4: that you have to have and U and an injection
• 49:08
  Speaker 4: that goes into your muscle in your arm to keep
• 49:10
  Speaker 4: you healthy between years, it seems just utterly absurd. And
• 49:14
  Speaker 4: I mean, I think that's a I think that's a
• 49:15
  Speaker 4: big one because that's an actual that's an actual drug.
• 49:19
  Speaker 4: It's a toxin that's being injected into your body. I mean,
• 49:21
  Speaker 4: it's not we're not just having a conversation. You know,
• 49:24
  Speaker 4: there's an actual thing that's going on here. And and
• 49:27
  Speaker 4: I love I love that so many people around me
• 49:29
  Speaker 4: now are looking at this more critically and saying it,
• 49:37
  Speaker 4: not just thinking it. You know, it's still difficult. You know,
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: when somebody dies suddenly or dies from something strange. I
• 49:47
  Speaker 4: don't know if you're the same, but I find myself thinking,
• 49:50
  Speaker 4: I wonder if they had the shot and with you
• 49:53
  Speaker 4: have to you have to read the room because some
• 49:55
  Speaker 4: people do not like that question at all.
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: It's just it's a it's a it's a no go zone.
• 50:00
  Speaker 4: But I I'm happy to to to be around a
• 50:04
  Speaker 4: number of people who are okay with that and and go, yeah,
• 50:08
  Speaker 4: I think he got the shot. And then you can't
• 50:11
  Speaker 4: prove that it was a shot, but you know, you
• 50:14
  Speaker 4: you can kind of start making connections and going, well, okay,
• 50:17
  Speaker 4: he was healthy and suddenly he just dropped dead on
• 50:19
  Speaker 4: the sports field. So I think I think to some
• 50:24
  Speaker 4: degree there are multiple wins that are happening, at least
• 50:29
  Speaker 4: in my circles, and I like that that that that
• 50:31
  Speaker 4: for me is very uplifting. So yes, I do see
• 50:34
  Speaker 4: a change. And it's not just that, it's other things. Also,
• 50:37
  Speaker 4: it's also geopolitical, so it could be it doesn't really matter,
• 50:44
  Speaker 4: but you know, it can be people changing their views
• 50:47
  Speaker 4: on previously held views that they are you know, they're
• 50:51
  Speaker 4: now letting go of. So but as I said, I
• 50:55
  Speaker 4: think it still plays into that that thirty number, and
• 50:59
  Speaker 4: I don't know if it will go above that.
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: Charles, Yeah, no, I think you're probably right. But it's
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: exactly like your tick case. It's a question of discerning
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: who is going to be receptive to such and such
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: an idea or just at least thinking about something.
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: And we've all.
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: Experienced the effects that the red pill can have, which
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: that it can invoke attendency to behave like a bull
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: and china shop and experience the backfire effect. Now you
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: are you have a mastery for asking questions? How have
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: you found to be the best technique for breaching these
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: sorts of subjects with people? Or is it on a
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: sort of individual by individual basis? How do you how
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: do you decide?
• 51:36
  Speaker 4: I'm just interested. It's as simple as that. I'm just
• 51:39
  Speaker 4: interested in learning. I just want to know. I want
• 51:42
  Speaker 4: to know more, and I make the assumption that the
• 51:47
  Speaker 4: person with whom I am talking knows more. It's it's
• 51:51
  Speaker 4: as simple as that. And you don't You don't get
• 51:55
  Speaker 4: anywhere if you.
• 51:58
  Speaker 3: Are being what's the word.
• 52:04
  Speaker 4: Abrasive or just trying to you know, so you're interviewing somebody,
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: but then you give your opinion all the time.
• 52:10
  Speaker 3: That's not how you learn.
• 52:12
  Speaker 4: I think it was Peter Bergosien who wrote, Yes, it
• 52:14
  Speaker 4: is Speedo who wrote the book How to Have Impossible Conversations.
• 52:18
  Speaker 4: And by the way, it's a book I highly recommend
• 52:23
  Speaker 4: it's an orange book, so you can't miss it. And
• 52:24
  Speaker 4: he wrote it with James Lindsay. He did those experiments,
• 52:28
  Speaker 4: those social experiments with Helen Pluckrose and James Lindsay, very
• 52:32
  Speaker 4: very funny, where they showed how the peer aview system's broken.
• 52:36
  Speaker 4: And he basically suggests that you need to genuinely be interested.
• 52:43
  Speaker 4: It's as simple as that.
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: And and through that.
• 52:47
  Speaker 4: Allow allow yourself to learn. You know, don't assume that
• 52:52
  Speaker 4: you know more. And that's the other thing. You know
• 52:55
  Speaker 4: when you when you interview people. I'm sure you will agree, Charles,
• 52:58
  Speaker 4: You you realize how little you actually know about so
• 53:00
  Speaker 4: many things. You learn more, but you also learn how
• 53:06
  Speaker 4: much you don't know. And it's the most incredible experience.
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: And me give an example.
• 53:12
  Speaker 4: So I've done I don't know about a thousand interviews
• 53:15
  Speaker 4: and I've had some of the best, the best discussions
• 53:21
  Speaker 4: with communists now. And I say that because they are
• 53:24
  Speaker 4: they self described communists, right. And the only reason why
• 53:28
  Speaker 4: I'm saying that, it's because the whole Ukraine thing happened.
• 53:31
  Speaker 4: And so I started focusing on that, and I realized
• 53:35
  Speaker 4: that these terms really do not adequately signify who or
• 53:45
  Speaker 4: what people believe it's just a single word to define
• 53:48
  Speaker 4: an entire person and their experience in life, and you
• 53:51
  Speaker 4: realize that it's silly. Yeah, these words help for conversations,
• 53:55
  Speaker 4: and of course for most most you know, dialogue. You know,
• 54:00
  Speaker 4: we need descriptors for general understanding of things. But when
• 54:07
  Speaker 4: you come down to it and you sit with somebody
• 54:09
  Speaker 4: like I did on many occasions, and I realized, I
• 54:13
  Speaker 4: agree with you, I agree with that point. I agree
• 54:15
  Speaker 4: with that point. Oh wow, I agree with that point too.
• 54:17
  Speaker 4: But I'm not a communist what's going on here? And
• 54:20
  Speaker 4: that's that's what made me realize how little I actually know,
• 54:22
  Speaker 4: Because even people who label themselves as things don't entirely
• 54:27
  Speaker 4: fit into these things because they so much more than
• 54:30
  Speaker 4: a label, if that makes sense. And that's why I've
• 54:33
  Speaker 4: kind of dismissed the left right sort of liberal conservative
• 54:36
  Speaker 4: dichotomies for the most part. And I just look at
• 54:39
  Speaker 4: myself and I go, well, what do I think about
• 54:41
  Speaker 4: a situation? What is my position on that?
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: What is my view?
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: And does that person have have a point? Yeah? I
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: think so does he have a point?
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: Now?
• 54:49
  Speaker 4: I don't know if I agree with that, And so
• 54:51
  Speaker 4: I kind of kind of formulate my own position based
• 54:54
  Speaker 4: on that. And I think any same person, just by
• 54:59
  Speaker 4: the way, on this, any same person who's done a
• 55:01
  Speaker 4: bit of history will know that the sort of left
• 55:03
  Speaker 4: right ideology narrative came out of the French Revolution. I
• 55:08
  Speaker 4: mean that was hundreds of years ago. I mean it's
• 55:10
  Speaker 4: no longer relevant. I mean, if you ask anybody today,
• 55:12
  Speaker 4: what does it mean to be right wing?
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: Or far right? Is the media term? Nobody knows.
• 55:17
  Speaker 4: Nobody can define these terms, and until these terms can
• 55:21
  Speaker 4: be adequately defined, you can't use them effectively. Those were
• 55:25
  Speaker 4: just throwing around pointless words. So I found myself having
• 55:30
  Speaker 4: the most incredible conversations with people with whom I ten
• 55:33
  Speaker 4: years ago would have vehemiently just outright disagreed without even
• 55:37
  Speaker 4: giving them a chance. And I think that's the point.
• 55:39
  Speaker 4: You know, when you give people a chance to and
• 55:41
  Speaker 4: you listen, which is what Peter Bogosian said in his book,
• 55:44
  Speaker 4: You know, you just listen and you and you show
• 55:46
  Speaker 4: an interest, there's a whole wealth of knowledge that you
• 55:51
  Speaker 4: that you end up gaining.
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, gosh, without a doubt, and for anybody
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: that isn't familiar with your podcast, and indeed, slightly depends
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: on the time or date. I should say that anyone
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: listens to this interview because the situation is somewhat changing.
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: But just describe, describe the German Warfare podcast in a nutshell,
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: but with a view to the future.
• 56:17
  Speaker 4: Well, effectively, it's the battle of ideas. So it is
• 56:22
  Speaker 4: engaging in topics or talking points that are traditionally perhaps
• 56:31
  Speaker 4: to do or unconventional or fringe or conspiratorial or whatever
• 56:35
  Speaker 4: generally speaking, that might challenge mainstream thinking.
• 56:39
  Speaker 3: So it's effectively.
• 56:44
  Speaker 4: Approaching what you might consider even dangerous ideas for the
• 56:48
  Speaker 4: purposes of learning, and also fitting together the puzzle. It's
• 56:53
  Speaker 4: taking slowly piecing together the puzzle of how things work.
• 56:57
  Speaker 4: You spoke about the new World Order, Gender twenty thirty.
• 56:59
  Speaker 4: These are all real things. Sustainable development is a real thing.
• 57:03
  Speaker 4: It is a United Nations ambition for centralized control of countries.
• 57:09
  Speaker 4: This is not this is not airy fairy stuff. It's
• 57:11
  Speaker 4: a real thing. It's documented. They want, you know, they
• 57:15
  Speaker 4: want people to move into cities and open up land
• 57:18
  Speaker 4: and give the land to the states so that they
• 57:19
  Speaker 4: can build solar panels and and all sorts of other stuff.
• 57:23
  Speaker 4: And and you know, these these sort of mega ultracities
• 57:26
  Speaker 4: that that that that class rob for example, are spoken about.
• 57:30
  Speaker 4: This is all real stuff and and and yet in
• 57:36
  Speaker 4: the mainstream there's this weird type of uh, closed mindedness
• 57:45
  Speaker 4: that still doesn't want to acknowledge that there is a
• 57:48
  Speaker 4: bigger set of of realities that are going on around us.
• 57:53
  Speaker 4: You know, if you open if I open a newspaper today,
• 57:55
  Speaker 4: it's it will just talk about how the government has
• 57:57
  Speaker 4: done X, Y and z, but it doesn't go further
• 58:00
  Speaker 4: than that. Here in South Africa, we've got an issue
• 58:02
  Speaker 4: with farm murders, right, and it's a real thing, and
• 58:04
  Speaker 4: we have we have a scary amount of particularly white
• 58:09
  Speaker 4: farmers who get attacked on a on a weekly basis,
• 58:12
  Speaker 4: either attacked or killed. But it's it's not good.
• 58:17
  Speaker 3: But if you were to.
• 58:20
  Speaker 4: Speak about this with your average with your average South
• 58:23
  Speaker 4: African who doesn't think terribly far, they would just think
• 58:26
  Speaker 4: that it's just it's just black people who hate white people.
• 58:30
  Speaker 3: But it's not that. In my view, I think that
• 58:32
  Speaker 3: it's deeper than that.
• 58:33
  Speaker 4: I think that this is part of a global attempt
• 58:38
  Speaker 4: with foreign interests to keep at least South Africa destabilized.
• 58:43
  Speaker 4: Because when you have a destabilized agricultural setup like we do.
• 58:48
  Speaker 4: You you can then infiltrate with a lot more ease.
• 58:51
  Speaker 4: You can get into government policy making, you can get
• 58:53
  Speaker 4: into corporate policy making. And and it's again as I
• 58:57
  Speaker 4: said earlier, where people are in a state of fear
• 58:59
  Speaker 4: and anxis you can you can control them with a
• 59:02
  Speaker 4: lot more ease. Agriculture I think is not just an
• 59:05
  Speaker 4: issue in South Africa. I think the Netherlands is also
• 59:07
  Speaker 4: facing all types of agricultural attacks. So so a myopic
• 59:12
  Speaker 4: view where it's just it's just racism. It's maybe some
• 59:16
  Speaker 4: of that, yes, sure, but I think it's bigger than that.
• 59:19
  Speaker 4: And this is what happens when you when you sit
• 59:22
  Speaker 4: within that sort of mainstream mindset, you don't want to
• 59:24
  Speaker 4: look bigger. You don't realize that there's that, there's that
• 59:27
  Speaker 4: there are a lot of links that are that.
• 59:29
  Speaker 3: Go outside of of of your view.
• 59:31
  Speaker 4: The world is interconnected, and there is a big web,
• 59:34
  Speaker 4: and there are a lot of things that are connected
• 59:36
  Speaker 4: to a lot of other things, and and and so
• 59:40
  Speaker 4: that's what germ warfare is about. It's about trying to
• 59:42
  Speaker 4: just find those links and connect them and and a
• 59:45
  Speaker 4: lot of them might not work you know, but that's
• 59:49
  Speaker 4: part of the process, as part of the journey.
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: Excellent, very good summary and for those who are aware
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: of German warfare than a handy reminder. To those that aren't,
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: they have something to look forward to. Eagle eyed amongst
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: the audience would have noticed already that there are one
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: or two cartoons of Germs that are tagged UK Column
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: and by now well depending on the date of the
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: release of the interview, but UK Column is now to
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: be host to Germ warfare in some guys or other.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: So that's something we look forward to enormously. Just give
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: us your thoughts on the collaboration with UK Column.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 4: I have been wanting to collaborate with the UK Column
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 4: for a very long time, Charles I said this to
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 4: you previously I interviewed Brian I think back in twenty
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 4: twenty one already a big fan of the work that
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 4: UK Column does. I think it's a very important voice
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 4: and it's not just UK based. The fact that I'm
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 4: in South Africa and have been following it for years
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 4: is an indication that it is global and it's an
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 4: important global voice, and it's a very what is the
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 4: opposite of sensational? I don't want to say moderate. That's
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 4: the wrong word, but it's a it's it's a it's
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 4: a well thought out take on what's going on.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 3: I'm trying.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 4: I'm trying to compare to to Info Wars, which is
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 4: highly highly sensational. It's not that it's a lot more
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 4: what's what, it's more reasoned. There we go, it's more
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 4: reasoned and and and I love that, uh and and
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 4: I'm looking forward to to to doing a type of
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 4: broadcast with UK column. And of course I'm enjoying drawing
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 4: for for UK column. It is a wonderful collaboration that
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 4: I find extremely fulfilling personally and of course I think
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 4: valuable externally. I think a lot of people will appreciate
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 4: our collaboration. And I just quitely want to say, we
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 4: keep saying germ warfare, which is correct, but some people
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 4: get confused. It's not germ with the G. We're not
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 4: talking about bacteria or you know, viruses. My name is Jeremy,
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 4: and it's just a play on words. So it's germ
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 4: with a J. So it's just literally wordplay, that's all
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 4: it is. And so it's all about the battle and
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 4: the war and the you know, and it's all all
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 4: those sort of metaphors kind of kind of coming to one.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 4: So just just to let people spell it correctly, because
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 4: I'll always get incorrect spelling.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: I will make sure I type that up with the
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: right keys for the note for this interview. Indeed, No,
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: obviously this is very exciting for the UK Column as well.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: It will be in effect under your own brand. So
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: now just tell people where they can go to find
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: out more about what you have been doing, what you
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: do do and any social media and that sort of thing.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 4: Well, obviously germ warfare dot Com. My website is the home.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 4: I mean, there's no point in me mentioning all that
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 4: other stuff because it's all on the website, social media,
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 4: et cetera, et cetera, germ warfare dot com with a J.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 4: But I suspect that the stuff that I'm going to
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 4: be doing with UK column will also be on UK
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 4: Columns website, Charles, So I think it'll be those two
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 4: websites perfect.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: I mean, could it be any simpler? I think not.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: So that's a fantastic place to end.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: Now all I would say is that if you are
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: in a position to support UK Column financially, and you're
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: not already doing so, but you would like to please
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: go to the website and look at ways in which
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: you could either donate or join as a member, because
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: we would very much appreciate that, and of course it
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: will enable us to sustain the nascent relationship with GERM,
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: which we are, as I say, very very pleased and
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: excited about. Now. There are thousands of other topics that
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: we could have covered if we had several more days,
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: but unfortunately that's where we've got to knock it on
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: the head.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 4: I just want to point out, because I know you're
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 4: not going to but a number of years ago when
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 4: I was hosting a radio show you were my guest,
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 4: and it's amazing how we've forced you back where we
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 4: are here, which is wonderful.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: So so thank you, not at all, thank you.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: I mean that actually that would be good for a
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: further discussion that was specifically about well Christianity with the
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: Church of England in particular, and how I would say
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: abuses it's funds. But that that is not a topic
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: we can open up now. But no, absolutely we should
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: come back and discuss that again because it's it's an
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: extraordinary topic and it was you know, it was a
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: great pleasure to talk to you then and as you say,
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: to come full circle now, what a delight. So we
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: will leave it there, but thank you very much indeed
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: for joining me. It's been a real pleasure.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 3: Thanks Chos.