Latest / The Christian Reeve Podcast / Grace Catan | The Christian Reeve Podcast #203

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Grace Catan | The Christian Reeve Podcast #203 · The Christian Reeve Podcast

0:00
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Christian Reef
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podcast. Now today's episode, I need to
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make a quick disclaimer for anyone.
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That's listening who I've never had to do this before.
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I says, get what I will say is there might be topics.
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There will be topics that we're going to be talking about today.
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That will trigger some people that will be quite heavy topics,
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quite serious topics. And because of that, you know,
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if they're if you have gone through this yourself and you're
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not comfortable with that, then maybe might want to skip this
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one but, you know, yeah. Just take care of yourself and
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yeah, but here's your warning. Okay.
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Alright. So today's guest is writer and
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public speaker from the Philippines, Grace Catan,
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welcome to the show. How you doin?
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Alright, good so good, how are you doing, great?
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No, it's good to have you on the show.
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I'm doing well, I've had a very busy day but I was looking
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forward to this because I see this is like a real challenge.
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Like I've covered some pretty heavy topics on the show before
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but this is like a whole show about something and I had to
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really sit down and think about it.
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Like when you reached out I was like and I do this is this
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something that I could do? Because the whole point of my
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show And I only discovered this in the last year and a half, but
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it's to share stories its to hopefully spread like a
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feel-good thing or, you know, to share conversations, life
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lessons, whatever that people need to hear.
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That's kind of like my goal with the show and, you know, I think
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that we've someone such as yourself, that's doing such
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amazing work and coming from a place of You know, like you had
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a personal experience, something that happened to you and then
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you decided to build a career around helping people and
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spreading awareness. And I think that that takes a
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certain a lot of like strength. I think it's not easy for anyone
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to talk about these things in general, but to come from that
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place and then to build on Words and then make a career out of it
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and help others and turn a Fficult thing into maybe
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something positive is is incredible.
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And So when I look at it like that I'm like of course I want
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to have you on the show. Do you know what I mean?
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It's like a no-brainer to me. So let's let's kind of start
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there because I want to I want to start What happens happens
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and then talk us through your thought process for.
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I'm going to start talking about this and making this a career
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and helping people. I think I always say like this,
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this started before our before, anything public.
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Like before, I publish my first article, I like I was just in
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my, in my like everyday life talking to people around me and
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people would ask me. Questions or I would know that
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somebody has experienced some form of sexual violence and like
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I just knew that that I had some sort of capacity to be there for
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them or talk them through it or just like be supportive and
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believe them. And I like academically have
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always been like a writing person and I also just right
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like I Journal a lot. I right just to get my thoughts
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down and figure out what I'm thinking.
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And then I think that's that's what happened with with my first
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article was I just I had this, it's, I had this thought, but
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like, I could not Shake of like, a lot of people were asking
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questions that made. I understand and that were
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helpful in that we're focused on.
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Like how do I be like a better Ally to survivors?
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Or how do I be like more supportive to my friend?
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But there were also a lot of people.
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There were asking me questions that didn't make a lot of sense
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and that we're more. Like, I think the title of that
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first article was something something like, through
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supporting survivors, like, menus empathy over curiosity.
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And it was that like almost Most selfish curiosity that I needed
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to figure out how to describe. And so I wrote it all down and
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then I got in touch with the some, like, people at the yellow
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Progressive and that was my first article and I just sort of
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kept going from there because like, all of this just started
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in like my private daily life even like speaking.
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Like I would be in, I'm a part of, she's the universe and
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before I As a community organizer with them.
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I was just one of like the girls that came to their events and I
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would talk and they'd be like, oh my gosh, like people should
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be hearing this and so they gave me my first like speaking
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engagement and I figured out I loved it and so I I don't really
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look at it as like a few career out of it as much as just like I
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do these things and if more people want to hear it, or if
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more people will be helped in impacted by it, like I like
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willing to do the work to get it out there.
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When you've done the public speaking engagements have you
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had any particular experiences that stand out?
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Because I imagine the people must kind of come up to you A
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lot of the time and be like, hey, this really helped me etc,
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etc. So anything that stands out any
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particular moments where you were like, Wow, you know, this
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is really helping people. I think probably my favorite
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want. This is more on this side of so
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I do. I talk about survivors of sexual
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violence, but I also talked about a couple other things.
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This one was specifically about neuro Divergence and I'm
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neurodivergent and it's this really like it's an experience
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we don't we talked about a lot. And so I spoke about it and
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afterwards somebody came up to me and she actually helped me
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work on the, on the piece that I that I did.
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And it was sort of partially spoken word.
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And it was just really, really passionate about this.
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This piece and she came up to me and she was like, I like to she
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just was like, thinky. Like, I feel like I understand
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my son more now and you reminded me Me like how how I should be
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loving him and how I should be expressing how much I love him
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because I was talking about like, how this different.
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So, like we have a lot. I mean, more, not enough, but we
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have more now, sort of role models for like, body
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positivity. And I've benefited from that a
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lot. I feel like I've been taught how
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to love my body and I don't feel like I have that as much for my
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brain and for the way that my brain works as a neurodivergent
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person. And so heart like half this
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piece was about like learning to love my brain, the way I love my
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body and I don't know, hearing her talk about like, how, how
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this has shifted her perspective about like her family, it like
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made. All of it is like, so, so worth
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it. And it it's the type of thing
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that that like I want to be happening on the type of impact
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that I want to be making. Absolutely.
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So I know that there are people that follow me, that have nirodh
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neurodivergent. So I believe is the term.
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Yeah, so talk us through the condition and you know how it's
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affected your life. All right, so murderer just is
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actually more like an umbrella term.
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So there's like a lot of different diagnoses and things
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that will fall under that and it's more sort of like I believe
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it it's more like a social term than like a medical ERM.
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But essentially being are Divergent, just means like, in
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one way or another, like, my brain doesn't work the same way
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that other people do, and there's a lot of different ways
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to be neurodivergent, but for me, it's, it's little things.
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Like, like I instead of I never fold my clothes like ever.
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Okay, yeah, you're ago, I just doing it because it my the way
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that my brain works, like, it doesn't It doesn't make sense to
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be doing it because it takes for me, like a lot of mental energy
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to do that that specific act, it just folding clothes and it
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doesn't. And when I'm, when I'm getting
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dressed in the morning, like it doesn't matter to me, whether
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I'm pulling out folded, clothes or unfolded clothes.
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I'm like rummaging through this drawer either and so just
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cutting that out. Made just the biggest
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difference, but if I wasn't in a place that was so accepting of
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that and I feel like I'm in such a nun.
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It's not perfect, but I don't think anywhere is perfect at
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this yet, but is like relatively inclusive and their Divergent
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people because I'm in that environment, I'm able to do this
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and I don't feel like shame for it or like in like Like back
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home where I it just was very different environment.
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And so like and a lot of other places to wear when we don't
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have as much education about like neurodivergent sand like
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what what does that look like? And you might help a
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neurodivergent person. That is different to a
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neurotypical person. It's just the biggest difference
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is just acceptance and understanding that like it's
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okay. If I want to sit on the floor
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instead of on this chair like nobody is getting hurt by that
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and the only time that I think that's why I love this shift so
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much to like acceptance rather than like there's a lot of
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things that like we've stopped or we should be stopping trying
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to cure because it's just a different way for a person's
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brain too. Or it and it's not bad, it's the
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bad part. The part where it gets from
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people is when we don't accept it and we don't make
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accommodations and we don't understand that person.
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So it's a lot of the writing and speaking thing also helps just
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in my daily life to communicate, like this is what I need and
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this is like the way I am in. This is not going to be harmful,
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it's just something that we need to understand something.
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You spoke about the something I resonate with this idea that
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like, It does. It's not hurting anyone, my
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behavior. This thing that I'm doing this
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way, that I think whatever it's not hurting anyone and this is,
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you know, funnily enough. I was saying this in a live
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stream the other day that like, that's how I review.
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A lot of things, like take gender pronouns as an example.
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Like when someone says, hey can you call me by these pronouns?
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I'm like, okay. And that's it because it doesn't
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affect any, it's a bit of a gets confusing, sometimes, I'll bet
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that but like it's it's just like, it's not hurting anyone so
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just just you You know, you know, I mean, but I know that
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there's people that get really annoyed about it and really take
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issue with it to bring it back to neurodivergent that.
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Why do you think that people kind of sometimes take it
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exception with it or don't accept it.
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Why do you think that is? The biggest thing is probably
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just like, lack of understanding again.
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Like, we don't talk about it as much as a lot of people have
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never even heard the word neurodivergent.
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And so, it's the one is lack of understanding.
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And then the second one is probably just difference.
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Like we, we, we like, we feel like really safe and comfortable
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and good when we're similar to the people, That are around us
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and so it can be a little bit like, jarring or confusing for
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some neurotypical. People to see like just
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different behavior that isn't again, is like not harmful at
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all. It's just like helpful to me.
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So like if we're all, if we're all like sitting in a classroom
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and I have like a sensory tool out that is helping Otis like
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it's in, in another environment that behavior might have been
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shut down at like, I love that here where I am.
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Like my professors are really accepting, it just took like one
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sentence of like, hey, just to let you know.
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Like, I'm neurodivergent, this helps me, Focus the less
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focused. I look the more focused.
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I am like that and that's all it took and they understood that.
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And so it's really about Just just taking the time to
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understand it, and it also comes down to believing people again,
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like, I talk a lot about trusting ourselves and trusting
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each other and like, believing me when I say that, like, if I'm
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looking off into the distance, that means I'm listening to your
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promise you, I'm listening, of course.
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Absolutely. A lot it's a lot about trusting
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and believing each other because when you don't understand
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something or I don't understand, I like, I've never experienced
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what's going on in their head. I have no way of knowing like,
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what is, what that feels like. And so, the only way I can
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understand is for you to tell me and for me to believe that,
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like, that's the second step that we, sometimes will forget
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this Podium each other. Hmm, but they look, a lot of it
14:50
comes down to, like, as you A patient's communication just
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kind of trying to help someone understand like, hey when you
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exhibit this Behavior, it gives off this impression is that the
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case and then you ask the person and then they tell you how they
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feel about the thing because that's another thing as well.
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Like what you commented on before, about the difference
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between a neurodivergent person, a neurotypical person is that
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you can't sort of approach that person in the same manner.
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Like, you know, you have to kind of take into account like Okay,
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maybe the way they've interpreted what I've just said,
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or done is different. You know, you have to be More
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conscientious of that, which kind of begs.
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The question actually, like, what do you think is the best
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way to approach that? Like if you meet someone that
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has no idea vergence and you will know your neurotypical?
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Like how do you approach that? So two things.
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Again, the first one is I I'm like a prepper like I like to be
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prepared for anything that comes my way and that includes like
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meeting people who, I don't understand.
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And so like the way that I make sure that I'm I'm going to be
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like the best person that I can be is like looking looking
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things up, adding adding nirodha like Following neurodivergent
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creators, like, adding them to my social media feed.
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So I am regularly like hearing their voices learning more about
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their experiences and just like I can't think of a better, a
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better. You were than like getting used
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to it. I don't know.
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Enough getting more like just being used to being around
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people that are different from you and the more like it just
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takes just building those relationships and listening.
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To those voices and then when you actually need that person,
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we're gonna meet a neurodivergent person.
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Just one like listen to whatever it is.
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They're actually saying like a lot of obviously it's nothing.
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I say applies to every neurodivergent person but like a
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lot of us are pretty like communicative about like I will
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just tell people like I don't get most social teams like it
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just isn't going to happen. So if you need me to Like, I
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told I'm this new friend that like had not known me for a
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while, and we were like out doing something and we're
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standing there and he's like, waiting for something to happen
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and I'm like, what is going on here?
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Turns out like you had a next thing to get to.
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So he was waiting for me to leave but he had like dropped
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all of these like hints and like social Seuss.
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Oh, I say, right. So
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but I just noticed like something's going on, I just
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said straight up. Right now.
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What are you trying to say? He's like I'm waiting for you.
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Just tell me that was mean to me.
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I don't know. Maybe it's just me.
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But if someone said that to me, I'd be like, oh oh, all right.
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Right on by then. Thanks like I did will tell
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people like that's just the communication style that works
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for me. And that's how you're going to
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get something across too big a star.
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Just to tell me and so like obviously not every
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neurodivergent person is going to be as like just blood and on
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as I tend to be. But like when somebody says like
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that, light is really bright. Really?
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Like the music super super loud like just believe them just be
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like, okay, we can like turn it down and it might not feel like
19:16
a big deal to you but leichner divergences Just like it isn't
19:20
just anything. It's a lot of things.
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So it encompasses things for like social cues to like sensory
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issues. And so it's impossible to
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understand what every single person needs in every scenario
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because we're all different. And so, it's just listening,
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it's really just listening and believing people.
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Again, we a coming from like I've heard the term sensory
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overload a lot. And you know, I don't think that
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I'm neurodivergent Never think I'm neurotypical but I will say
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that like sometimes, yeah, I can be, I have a tendency to be a
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bit of a Hermit sometimes. I don't know when it sometimes.
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I do go out like it's a Saturday and it's there's loads of people
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around everything's kind of crazy.
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That feels a bit like sensory overload.
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It's like wow. Okay, Lots going on.
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I need a minute to like, process all of this.
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And sometimes it could be a bit too much, and you can feel so
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trapped. Like, so I think what you said
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about just trying to understand trying to put Often in the shoes
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but other person that's kind of the key, isn't it?
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You know, maintenance and I think that accounts for anyone
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not just you know just in general in life you know.
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Just a lot of a lot of the the fixes in the the different like
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shift in mindset that disability Justice Advocates and their
20:39
Divergent Advocates have been advocating for actually do work
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for just like Society in general Like it might be a little bit
20:50
more important for a disabled person or 400 Divergent person
20:55
to be belief. When they say like, I need this
20:58
particular thing, but all of these skills are going listening
21:02
and trusting people and trying to understand each other.
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Like they work for everybody. And a lot of the accommodations
21:10
that neurodivergent and disabled people ask for or need also help
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everybody like if we We the that's a one of the like tenets
21:21
of Universal Design. I don't know if you've heard
21:23
about it, but it's it's like this, this principle that like
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there's ways to design things, that one, they make things
21:33
better for disabled people that they just make things more
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accessible, but they also like make life easier for
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non-disabled people. So there's like no reason not to
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do it. So, one example is like curb
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Cuts, right? That's like the most famous
21:45
example. Where like They're created so
21:48
that litter users can get up and down the curb but they also help
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like people with suitcases at the airport.
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We're like people rolling around there.
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They're like I don't know what what the words I guess it's also
22:03
called a suitcase like if you have like a little thing for
22:05
with all your work stuff in it and you're rolling it around or
22:09
people pushing things in a dung like it just isn't helpful Fun's
22:14
fun as well. I'm big child.
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Like spin around until I don't care.
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My school has and a lot of places have the like
22:26
accessibility buttons. That will make it easier, will
22:30
the will have an automatic door so that wheelchair users and
22:33
people with other types of disabilities can get into door
22:36
like more easily. But it also helps when you're
22:38
like carrying a bunch of books or you have like a cup in this
22:42
hand and your laptop in this hand and you're like trying to,
22:45
but you can just use the button. It's easier and obviously it's
22:50
not feasible to have like a button that every single door
22:53
but a lot of these fixes when applied to large scale our are
23:00
helpful for everybody. So that's that's sort of a that
23:04
idea of things like access for disabled people in for
23:09
neurodivergent, people is a lot of the time access for
23:12
everybody. Sure what advice could you give
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to? People who might have just
23:18
discovered that they are neurodivergent.
23:22
I think. The thing that helped me most
23:26
was probably finding other neurodivergent people whether
23:29
it's like in your life or for me, A lot of it was online at
23:34
first, just like, finding like their Divergent creators and
23:37
listening to, like what they're saying and reading op-eds and
23:40
things like that. Because a lot of the hard part
23:45
of my journey was just like self-acceptance and just being
23:49
kind to myself and understanding that, like, oh my gosh, all of
23:54
These things that like as a kid like I was told to not do or I
23:58
was criticized for like they're just like normal parts of who I
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am and they're okay. And I like should get to be kind
24:09
to those parts of myself. And the way that I learned to do
24:12
that was just watching other people, be kind to those parts
24:14
of themselves and Social Security like listening to other
24:19
people's experiences of like, this is how I like I got this.
24:24
Stop folding, your clothes idea from somebody else.
24:28
And so that not every remember that not everything that works
24:33
for somebody else. Even if you have exactly the
24:35
same condition like it's not going to all work for you.
24:38
But getting ideas from each other and feeling that sense of
24:41
community and belonging and acceptance goes a really really
24:46
wrong. Brilliant.
24:48
Thank you for sharing. Let's take it back to our main
24:52
topic today. What advice could you give to
24:57
people who are discussing, you know, their experiences for the
25:02
first time? So they've experienced it.
25:05
I just think about this as well, like how to say this, I guess
25:07
I'll just say sexual assault or say I'll just say it.
25:13
How, how can one approach this? How did you first approach it?
25:21
Honestly it was a years-long process.
25:24
Like there was not one day where I said today, I'm telling my
25:29
mom. All right, I got ya.
25:33
Like I halfway told my best friend and then I halfway told
25:38
another friend and then I kind of told my parents and then I
25:41
told my parents again and it it looks different for everybody
25:48
but the most important thing The is is getting the support and
25:55
oftentimes the resources that you need, whether it's like
26:00
Financial. Like the I just want to plug
26:03
like three from is a great organization that that does a
26:08
lot of financial support. And both in terms of like
26:11
learning Financial skills to become more financially
26:15
independent, and also things like grants and economic help to
26:20
help survivors. Like get back on their feet.
26:22
If financials was a part of this experience that was impacted
26:29
other times. It's like Mental Health
26:31
Resources and things like counseling because this is like
26:34
a major major life event and and regardless of how big or small
26:41
it feels like you deserve to have that support.
26:44
If you feel like that's what you do in terms of approaching that
26:48
conversation because that was like, the hardest Is hardest
26:51
part for me was just like I don't have the words for this.
26:54
Like I don't know how to say this.
26:58
That was the reason I created the toss one project.
27:01
It's a so it's a resource that's available online, just Google
27:06
like the tell someone project and you can print it out,
27:10
there's digital versions, there's all types of different
27:12
ways that you can use it, but it essentially will start that
27:16
conversation for you and you just hand it to someone or you
27:19
send it to them and it We'll start off with just like, hey,
27:24
like this is the conversation we're having right now.
27:26
This something has happened to this person and they are
27:30
trusting you now to support them.
27:33
And then it also has things like guidelines of like what to say
27:36
and what not to say how to be supportive and then it'll get
27:39
into like you can you can customize it, but you get to
27:44
choose like questions that the other person can ask you because
27:50
it's it's Hard to start and like, hey, this is the story
27:56
like it that just did not work for me.
28:01
Was when other people ask me questions, answer them and the
28:06
questions are formulated in a way that Isn't that to give you
28:10
as much Choice as possible. So, it's rather than like what
28:14
happened, it's phrased more in a way that's like, is there
28:19
anything that you want to share about what happened or like is.
28:22
And then it's divided in the sort of like, you want to talk
28:26
about what happened, do you want to talk about how it's affecting
28:28
me now and then do you want to talk about how I can support a
28:32
computer? And so it's sort of setting up
28:35
this conversation in that structured way that just You
28:40
like the power and we in turn seem to decide like how this
28:44
goes and share what you want to share would you say a part of it
28:49
as well as the fact that the other person is leading the
28:51
conversation. So instead of you coming into it
28:54
and having to be like alright where do I start?
28:57
Like they're guiding it by asking those questions and then
29:00
as you say you take ownership of the answers and such but like
29:03
they're still leading the conversation, right?
29:06
I wouldn't say that. The other question is Leading
29:09
like on. Well, I guess I guess so, yeah.
29:13
Because it's But because it's based on this like Survivor
29:19
generated only Survivor generated questions.
29:24
It's it's sort of like splitting the work almost where you stood
29:29
me being the what like I'm bringing this up and I'm worried
29:32
about how do I say this? And I'm also like telling my
29:36
story. It's sort of splitting that work
29:39
so that the other person can be a little bit more like it. can
29:45
sort of do do the, the almost logistical part of the
29:51
conversation and make sure we're talking But the foundation of it
29:56
is really the survivors agency and the survivors ability to
30:02
decide what they want to share because not being able to share
30:07
something. Because I don't know how is in
30:10
my opinion, like as as disempowering as being forced to
30:17
share something that I don't want to because I'm not able to
30:20
say what I want to say. So this just sort of Again like
30:24
splits that that bourbon of the labor.
30:27
And so you're both, you're both engaged in this conversation,
30:30
different ways that hopefully will help you both come to some
30:34
sort of understanding. What would you say has been the
30:37
biggest lessons and takeaways from speaking about your
30:40
experiences. Biggest.
30:46
Takeaways, or probably like. One that this is everywhere,
30:54
right? I knew all the statistics going
30:59
into this, but just but now, like I can be 100% confident and
31:06
walk into a room and know that somebody here has experienced
31:11
this or knows somebody who has experienced this because it, I
31:15
just, it just has never happened.
31:17
Where I'm, I'm writing something, or I'm talking about,
31:21
Something and nobody else has their own story to share every
31:26
time whether it's in a public forum and somebody comes up to
31:29
me at the end or send me a message or it's just like I'm
31:34
with my friends and and we're talking about this and it comes
31:37
up somehow like when I'm talking.
31:40
I'm not the only person talking. I will say something.
31:45
And somebody will say, oh, that happened to my friend, or this
31:48
one time that happened to me. And It's just absolutely
31:53
everywhere. And so it's not.
31:57
I think I'm a lot less apologetic or embarrassed now
32:01
about talking about this too much because I know that like
32:09
they're there are a lot, a lot of people who've experienced
32:13
this and seeing like a post on your like a story on your feet.
32:19
It's just like support of those survivors.
32:21
Like those little silent interactions, that you can't
32:25
really see. Like now that I know that
32:28
they're there. It's I'm just I'm just not not
32:31
embarrassed about it anymore, I'm not apologetic at all.
32:34
Because I know there's people that need and are we It was here
32:38
that stuff. Focus through your work with
32:46
social media and content creation, and how it's helped
32:50
sort of spreads the message about what you do, and spread
32:53
awareness and stuff like that. I kinda want to come at this
32:56
from two angles. So, firstly, just generally how
33:00
you Market yourself but also how it's actually helped you to get
33:03
the message up. When I first start, like when I
33:09
posted like my first couple of videos and like I do these
33:14
little bite-sized things on Instagram because that's just
33:17
like how my brain works. I was really worried about.
33:24
Like when you think about impact on social media it's a lot of
33:28
the time. It's numbers based and it's like
33:30
how many followers do you have and how many people are seeing
33:33
this video? And that's absolutely important.
33:35
Like that matters. But I had this like mindset
33:41
shift part of the way through where I was getting ice cream.
33:45
I was just out like in my town and somebody from my school, who
33:50
I didn't know, well that had met a couple times, came up to me
33:54
and was like, Hey, I really appreciate this stuff and post
33:59
on social media and I was like, What is going on?
34:06
Because like, when you think about impact I feel like there's
34:10
a tendency to think that like oh, it's more impactful if like
34:14
the compliment is coming from a stranger or something like that.
34:19
But a lot of the time, it's the people in our own lives.
34:24
That need to hear this in need to know that somebody is here
34:29
near them on their side. And like the impact that I think
34:36
it's really difficult to measure, but you can see it, and
34:40
you can feel it. When people are more comfortable
34:43
coming to you with questions, for our more copper will just
34:47
open up to you. And and say, like, hey, like
34:50
this has been helpful because it's not always about like, what
34:56
that it's important to like if you're going to, if you're
34:58
touching the life of a stranger across the globe, But it's just
35:02
as important to smooth like the person in your class now, feels
35:08
more comfortable like openly, like being who they are,
35:13
showings a certain part of himself because they know that
35:16
you're there and you're open and actively in support of who they
35:21
are and in support of, of them, as people and are not going to
35:27
get a victim land membership. Thanks for sharing.
35:33
So you delivered a speech entitled don't pull my ponytail
35:39
which is about teaching kids. Why consent is important?
35:43
So talk us through this speech And why?
35:48
You know, it's important to teach this to kids and, you
35:52
know, the suggestions you've made for how to approach it.
35:58
So that's also, why would go? So I just I'm like, laughter.
36:03
I just like love, but I don't know how I came up with that,
36:07
but it's so like we know now, like consent is about more than
36:15
just like the sexual or romantic like a Aspect of Our Lives.
36:19
I consent is everywhere from lecture release form that you
36:22
sign to let your kid go on, go on a field trip to like any
36:27
business contract. So, but the the important part
36:31
that we don't necessarily teach kids, and sometimes we teach
36:35
kids in, opposites is like about like bodily autonomy.
36:40
And knowing that like the concept of like my body, my
36:45
rules is, is Really easy way to convey that to kids because it
36:53
in addition to just like this sets them up for a much like
36:58
healthier and safer and more respectful like dating life in
37:04
the future. It also is protecting them in
37:07
their current lives because a kid Knows how to say no, when,
37:16
when there's something, they're not comfortable with is.
37:20
So, so powerful, because it's not teaching kids about consent
37:26
and teaching them, about bodily autonomy, and body ownership is.
37:29
It's not about, like, I don't want to go to bed at this time.
37:33
It's about like, if I know that like a hug would make me feel
37:39
really uncomfortable right now. I should not have to go through
37:42
that. Like and and I shouldn't know
37:45
that I can say noted and so part of it and then not like creates
37:52
this, this sort of culture of consent is I think what some
37:55
people call it, you just just know that that people people can
38:03
decide what is okay and what is not okay for them and it seeps
38:08
into things. Like when I'm watching a movie
38:12
with my And I want to put my head on her shoulder.
38:14
I'll say, is this? Okay?
38:16
And that like it's it's a really like small thing, but it makes
38:22
everybody feel so much more safe and comfortable and respected,
38:26
and loved and sometimes it is. Okay.
38:29
It was like and sometimes she's like, I am in a weird mood today
38:34
and I don't really want to be touched at all.
38:36
And it's like, okay, like thank you for telling me that because
38:39
I don't want. It's a lot more important to, to
38:44
me at least and hopefully to other people to strengthen those
38:48
relationships and keep that communication open and make each
38:53
other feel safe than it is for me to have this particular
38:57
physical contact at this particular time.
39:00
Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely.
39:02
Thank you for sharing though. I think it's CCS a tough one to
39:08
approach, really isn't it but I think the way that you broken it
39:10
down there kind of makes it pretty straightforward.
39:13
You know, it is just about saying like Hey listen this
39:16
doesn't make you happy doesn't make habit.
39:18
One thing I wanted to add to that as well.
39:19
I think is in a child's mind. You know, you look at like
39:23
adults as particularly you place, your trust in them, you
39:27
know, and obviously, you know, I'd say about horrible, things
39:31
can happen sometimes and it's I think it's good to know.
39:35
The even when that comes from adults, like sometimes it's if
39:40
you're being asked something that falls outside of what is
39:43
acceptable normal, you know, something that makes you
39:46
uncomfortable. You can say that and you can
39:48
even say that to an adult and then they're in protect yourself
39:54
kind of thing and and as you say, it sets a kid up.
39:57
Well, for life, I mean gosh, I could think of so many times in
40:01
life where I felt pressure to do something maybe at work.
40:05
Work that isn't in my contracts. Not there doesn't say that I
40:08
have to do that. But, you know, you feel that
40:10
pressure and obviously it takes a lot of guts to, like, stand up
40:15
and say, no, I'm not going to do that and you risk potentially
40:18
getting fired or whatever. But like, you got to be able to
40:21
say no. Like, you click copy forced into
40:23
these things, that is, unless you sign a contract, which
40:25
literally says I have to do this particular thing at work or
40:29
whatever, like, there's no reason to say you can it even
40:32
then, even then, I think it's wrong.
40:35
Pressure to sign that contract if you want to.
40:37
But here's the thing. Even even if you've liked signed
40:40
a contract and you change your mind and you don't want to now,
40:44
do that thing. That's why breach a contract
40:47
exists. That's why were you don't worry,
40:49
they'll be consequences, but at least you're able to do that
40:52
least you're able to take it back, whatever change things,
40:55
Etc. And that's probably why the
40:59
terminology is written in such a way and legal culture, Nella
41:02
consent form. Like it's I it a lot in the
41:07
acting sphere, you know, like a lot of time.
41:10
It'll be just like forms saying, I consent to my stuff being used
41:15
in a particular sphere, but it's important in that sphere because
41:20
Maybe I don't want this material used.
41:22
Maybe I changed my mind. Maybe I no longer fits my brand
41:26
or I'm you know I no longer want it to be out there or for
41:31
whatever reason. Like I have some control over
41:33
its Norm not powerless which I guess is the whole point.
41:39
How best can we support a friend or family member that has
41:42
suffered sexual assault? I think the first thing I want
41:48
to say is, is do a whole bunch of research outside of listening
41:53
to this one minutes. Feel there's, there's a so much
41:59
out there and if you literally just Google, that question will
42:02
get a lot of like helpful information has the biggest sort
42:07
of overarching thing to keep in mind is I think we personally
42:12
all have a lot of biases that we've been taught, but that will
42:21
that will tell us to to try and figure out what happened, figure
42:29
out how this happened because part of it is, is like we want
42:33
to make sure worse were saying this isn't going to happen to
42:37
really but the reality is that's not how How it works at all and
42:43
there's not really, it's it's never within the survivors
42:49
control. And so, the, the classic, the
42:53
classic question that we always tell people not to ask is like,
42:56
what were you wearing or like, what were you doing?
42:59
Were you drinking, but The idea of not victim-blaming goes so
43:07
much. Like, there's a lot, a lot more
43:11
subtle stuff. Like were you with like, did you
43:17
did you call? Did you call a friend?
43:20
Or what did you say, did you, did you tell them that you
43:23
didn't want to do that? And all, there's so many
43:27
questions that we should be asking things like Like how, how
43:33
can I help or like, how are you doing?
43:37
Is there anything that's really hard right now that I can help
43:40
with like, really simple things as well.
43:46
Go a long way, like we win, especially right after something
43:51
like this happens, it can be really difficult to to just keep
43:58
up with with normal daily life. In addition, to dealing with
44:01
this, So things like walking them to a doctor's appointment
44:05
or or like The Stereotype is bringing over at the Pastoral
44:12
hey Waxman. That's but I suppose.
44:15
Yeah. Well what you were saying?
44:17
There is like especially after an incident and the first thing
44:20
that came to my mind is like I imagined for many people when
44:25
you go through something like that you're sort of in a State
44:28
of Shock or you know like maybe you know, you go back and forth
44:31
I guess. Yes, it's probably difficult to
44:33
sit and think like, oh I guess I need to go to my job now or I
44:37
need to get up and make myself food or whatever because it's
44:40
your like you can't believe this thing has happened and you'll
44:45
still processing it and that can that can take forever.
44:48
And, you know, a lot of it does come down to the type of person
44:51
you are and such. But at the end of the day, even
44:54
then it's, you know, I mean, it's a whole process that takes
44:59
time. And I think if if someone can
45:01
come In and sort of see like, oh, maybe there's something I
45:04
can do, it's not directly gonna help, it's not gonna change
45:11
things, you know, whatever but it, maybe it helps to kind of
45:14
create some normality and by doing so creating that normality
45:20
and routine and so on, you can kind of begin to help a person
45:24
kind of get back in the mindset of feeling normal again, and
45:29
then that's when you start making that progress, Maybe.
45:32
Baby and it doesn't always even have to be doing something
45:37
because that is like it is a common response to these sort of
45:41
in shock and it's like is totally normal with like don't
45:45
feel like going to work the next day but some people also have
45:50
the opposite response and they're like it's also really
45:53
common to the entire order to not realize what has happened
45:58
until some. People even will realize it like
46:01
years later. Over.
46:02
And that might also be a time where they need that kind of
46:06
support, but like, as somebody supporting a Survivor, because
46:13
I've been on both ends of this, right?
46:15
So like something that I had to remind myself as like I do not
46:22
Have the responsibility or the ability to fix this or that like
46:28
I can't solve this, this isn't something that I could just fix
46:33
but I can be there for the percent.
46:35
So for some people it's helpful to like my friend once helped me
46:42
carry my laundry downstairs because it was really heavy.
46:46
That was really difficult for me and I'm so grateful.
46:52
For her and that just was, I just I needed clean clothes, but
46:56
sometimes it's more like a text that just says, Hey, like I know
47:03
like if the person does not want practical help right now, like,
47:09
I don't think it's, it's always helpful to force them to accept
47:12
it. I once there was this person
47:18
that just like wanted to be alone, and that's okay.
47:20
And so I just liked it. Texted her, like like if you
47:25
want company. Like I am here.
47:27
I'm free this afternoon, if you don't, that's okay.
47:30
But I'm here for you. I'm like, I believe you and you
47:34
like should not have gone through this and sometimes
47:37
that's all it takes and just like receiving having received
47:41
messages like that was how I knew that this could be helpful.
47:45
And so everybody needs something a little bit different but it's
47:50
all the kids without listening and the concept of empowerment.
47:55
And choice is is so Central, especially here because the
48:00
whole idea of sexual violence is that the choice was taken away
48:04
from the person, their ability to choose what happens to them
48:09
was stolen in that month and so giving them as much agency and
48:15
And choice as possible. Even if the choice is, I don't
48:18
want to make a decision, please decide for me.
48:21
That's still a choice that they deserved.
48:24
And so keeping listening and choice in mind throughout all
48:28
of, this is the most helpful thing to do, one of the
48:34
questions I have here revolves around numbers.
48:39
So I want a new mentioned earlier that you sort of look
48:41
into the statistics. So As but I got two questions
48:45
first lead the statistics suggest.
48:47
It's on the rise, you know, so sexual assault crimes?
48:51
Are they on the rise? And if so, why do you think that
48:55
is? Honestly, I could not tell you
49:00
that I had on the concrete numbers like year to year, but
49:07
how they're changing. What I do know is like domestic
49:12
violence and sexual violence. Within the home went up a lot
49:16
during the pandemic. Yeah, something that
49:20
organizations are still working to to deal with in to support
49:25
people who are music. Experience that.
49:28
That's why. They're and I make was so
49:31
intense, like specifically, in places where block towns, like
49:34
it was really, really bad for a lot of people who have
49:39
experienced domestic abuse or who are still experiencing and
49:45
now that lock Downs are sort of Shifting, and a lot of places
49:49
are opening up. I don't know how that's going
49:51
things, but there also are a lot of Allah.
49:57
Shifts in terms of college campuses that because I know one
50:04
specific organization, green.is working on a lot of college
50:07
campuses. And they were making a lot of
50:09
progress before the pandemic and sort of Shifting this culture,
50:12
at least in the, in the at the universities where they were but
50:16
the pandemic ultimately, sort of put a stop to that.
50:20
And so, like the problem that that I've been hearing them talk
50:23
about is okay, we made all this progress.
50:26
We've had like This whole class of people that were educated
50:31
about this and that we're really respectful of each other.
50:34
And then we have the pandemic and they all graduated and now
50:37
what do we do? Like, we're starting from
50:39
scratch. And so, hopefully it it will
50:44
come back down and we'll keep making progress and doing the
50:48
work that we're doing. I just don't know exactly where
50:53
we're at right now because it's sort of still like a transition
50:56
things. We have maybe some general ideas
51:03
essay for society in general to approach this.
51:07
Maybe there's things we could be doing that might even help to
51:13
prevent this. I hope the curvy or spread
51:14
awareness or anything in between, is there anything we
51:17
could change maybe this blaring the obvious that we're not doing
51:21
right now? Wearing we all one could be
51:31
believing survivors more. Like, I know we say that so
51:35
much. We've been like, trying to drill
51:37
it into people's heads but like, even I'm not even talking like
51:43
officially. I'm just talking about like,
51:46
when your friend tells you that something has happened to them.
51:50
Don't question that, like you wouldn't question if They told
51:54
you they got mugged like it's just not.
51:58
It's not. I don't know, it's not happening
52:03
yet and it's happening more now that we have more awareness
52:07
about it, but that is one like blaring leads, obvious to me.
52:12
And then another one is just like, our, our systems of
52:18
accountability are just terrible right now.
52:22
And so like, one thing that I've heard somebody say that really
52:27
resonated with me was like, there's communities now and In
52:31
my community, like a lot of support for survivors but not a
52:35
lot of accountability for perpetrators.
52:39
And so I'm an article is about to go out actually in the next
52:43
one or two weeks that is about to that is about like social
52:49
accountability for perpetrators and like the the glaringly
52:54
obvious here is just don't be friends with people who
52:59
committed sexual violence. It's like it sounds.
53:02
So like I don't know, like it sounds Weird to say it out to
53:09
the like I have to tell people that but it's just it's
53:16
different in different parts of the world, I know.
53:18
But there's a lot of people that are willing still willing to
53:23
look, look, past it or two. I don't know, just just act like
53:31
this. This hasn't happened or the
53:35
biggest excuse is like, this person has changed, but that's
53:39
not always what it's about. Sometimes, it's about like, are
53:43
they currently like a perpetrator sexual violence, and
53:47
still doing this, but a lot of the time, it's about respect for
53:51
their victims. Like, I'm writing another piece
53:56
right now with, through the lining.
53:58
That I loved, it's just like it's used.
54:02
Like you're really like a lot of people are really concerned
54:07
about Justice and and like fairness and so they'll say,
54:12
like it's unfair to take away. This this person's whole career
54:16
for one thing they did, but it's also really, really unfair for
54:22
victims to see their is their their abuser, just in a position
54:27
of power. Like how big a slap in the face?
54:30
Is that? So that's, that's, that's a big,
54:33
big one is just holding perpetrators accountable and not
54:38
not moving past this like it's it's some some little crime or
54:43
like a little little mistake because it it can change
54:49
somebody's whole life and so it needs to be treated as a
54:52
problem. That is that big Thank you very
54:56
much for sharing a couple of final questions for you.
55:00
Not related to our topic today. Just general questions that I
55:03
ask every guest that appears on the show.
55:07
What's the best advice you've ever received?
55:14
Trust yourself. This is about yourself, not not
55:20
even believe in yourself but just like believe the things
55:24
that your body and your mind are telling you because they're you
55:29
don't just make stuff up. And what's the biggest life
55:35
lesson you've learned so far? Yes, to life lasting.
55:45
Wow. Probably. like, You never know
55:55
like why people are doing something a lot of a lot of the
56:02
things. Like I've seen a lot of people.
56:07
I've had a lot of conversations that are like, hey, like that
56:12
was kind of a really terrible thing to do.
56:15
Like why did you do that? And they'll open up with this
56:18
like Story that I just could never have imagined.
56:23
And so there there's a lot of, a lot of compassion and
56:31
understanding and like, I don't know, just knowing we don't.
56:35
And I like em terrible at this. Like I, I'm terrible at
56:42
imagining that people have some reason, I don't understand for
56:47
doing things. But it's it's just practice.
56:51
I don't know like I'm not the greatest but I am practicing in
56:58
your best. As we do things to a close
57:03
today. Is there any upcoming projects
57:06
or maybe some final thoughts that you'd like to share with
57:08
our listeners? I don't think I have any
57:17
projects that I'm allowed to. I think a final thought would
57:25
just be like, I know I've said book, believe yourself and
57:32
believe each other about 20 times in this.
57:35
But one thing that I think we don't like we don't have much
57:42
practice doing is believing people's feelings and valuing
57:46
that because we do a lot of comparing is like this is like
57:53
just a feeling versus this is a factor, this is reality, but a
57:58
lot of the time like I am sad is a fact like it's not yes, it's
58:07
not the same as like this rock is three inches long but It's,
58:13
it's still important. If we care about human beings
58:17
that listening to their feelings is important and not just
58:21
listening, but like valuing them and understanding like this
58:25
impacts, this person's experience.
58:27
And so I care about that regardless of this goes back to
58:32
what I was talking about earlier with, like, cutting
58:35
perpetrators, like how of your life and just not being friends
58:39
with them, especially your friends with survivors or even
58:44
their victims because The fact might be like, oh, the
58:52
perpetrator has learned from their mistakes and has has
58:57
changed and grown as a person. Okay, maybe that's the fact, but
59:01
the another fact that exists alongside of, that is seeing
59:08
I'll just use myself as an example like seeing my best
59:12
friend, go and just have lunch with A person that has harassed
59:19
me. Like so many people like, that
59:25
is hurtful, and that makes me angry and disrespected.
59:29
And this fact was there. I don't think, I don't think
59:32
that person is going to harass people, again, like he learned
59:36
sufficiently, but that doesn't mean that my friend can now just
59:40
like forget about it and go have lunch and it was the most It was
59:46
the best feeling, I think, when I told her that and I
59:51
communicated that and she was like, okay, like she just said
59:55
yes, like it wasn't a big deal because it shouldn't like, it
59:59
should be almost a given and that that who's maybe made me
1:00:05
have a little bit less tolerant of people that won't do that
1:00:09
because I know it is possible. And for some people, it is just
1:00:13
that easy and But it really was like.
1:00:21
I couldn't describe it to you. How that fox has seen that
1:00:23
happen. I think maybe for the first time
1:00:26
for someone was just like I understand.
1:00:28
Okay yes like I'm I will keep my distance and just it's just a
1:00:34
respect thing almost so yeah like valuing people's feelings.
1:00:41
Alongside like the facts of the world because sometimes like the
1:00:46
existence of humans means of feelings are part of our part of
1:00:50
the facts that we can describe. Yeah, thank you very much for
1:00:55
sharing and for appearing on the show has been an absolute
1:00:58
pleasure having you on the show. And I hope you've enjoyed being
1:01:00
on the show. To thank you so much for having
1:01:03
me. Me and to the listeners of the
1:01:06
Christian re podcast, as always be safe.
1:01:10
Be well, and I'll see you in the next one.
1:01:04
Me and to the listeners of the Christian re podcast, as always
1:01:08
be safe. Be well, and I'll see you in the
1:01:11
next one.