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An ICE surge in Springfield, and a third-country deportation gambit in Africa · This Week On ICE

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[music]
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SPEAKER_00: Welcome to This Week On ICE for September 2, 2026.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm Kelly Kimball.
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SPEAKER_01: And I'm Matt Kendrick.
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SPEAKER_00: This week,
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SPEAKER_00: we're honing in on a new ICE surge happening in Springfield,
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SPEAKER_00: Ohio and neighboring towns.
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SPEAKER_00: On July 27th,
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SPEAKER_00: the Department of Homeland Security ended temporary protected status for Haiti,
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SPEAKER_00: Syria and Yemen.
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SPEAKER_00: Which allowed hundreds of thousands of people from these countries to live
0:30
SPEAKER_00: and work legally in the United States due
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SPEAKER_00: to their home countries experiencing immense turmoil.
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SPEAKER_00: Since then,
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SPEAKER_00: federal immigration officers have surged in communities with large populations
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SPEAKER_00: of people from these countries,
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SPEAKER_00: including Springfield, which boasts between 10,000 and 15,000 Haitian refugees.
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SPEAKER_00: Matt and I will talk about the new frontline of ICE's ongoing surveillance,
0:53
SPEAKER_00: detention, and deportation scheme.
0:56
SPEAKER_01: Then we'll briefly update you on what's going on with another huge ice surge,
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SPEAKER_01: this time happening nearly 600 miles away in New York City.
1:03
SPEAKER_01: We'll discuss the latest developments in the Trump administration's growing network
1:07
SPEAKER_01: of third-party deportations,
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SPEAKER_01: particularly a new agreement with a suite of African nations,
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SPEAKER_01: including Liberia and Equatorial Guinea.
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SPEAKER_00: After the break,
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SPEAKER_00: we'll sit down with John Schlois,
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SPEAKER_00: who is the president of the News Guild CWA,
1:20
SPEAKER_00: which is suing DHS for its new rule that changes how long international students,
1:25
SPEAKER_00: exchange visitors, and foreign journalists can remain in the United States.
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SPEAKER_00: If put into force on September 15th,
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SPEAKER_00: The student and exchange visa periods will be no longer than four years,
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SPEAKER_00: and the visa for journalists,
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SPEAKER_00: which currently can last years,
1:39
SPEAKER_00: would be up to just 240 days, or in the case of Chinese nationals, only 90 days.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: Legal experts warn this new rule would be, quote, catastrophic for universities.
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SPEAKER_00: Lots to discuss today.
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SPEAKER_00: Stick with us.
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SPEAKER_00: Matt, let's begin with this new ICE surge in Springfield, Ohio.
2:04
SPEAKER_00: So unlike previous ICE surges that we have seen
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SPEAKER_00: with code names like Operation Metro Surge and Operation Midway Blitz,
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SPEAKER_00: this ICE surge is kind of being codified by the media
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SPEAKER_00: and community members themselves,
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SPEAKER_00: due in great part to DHS Secretary Mark Wayne Mullen maintaining that
2:22
SPEAKER_00: the agency will take a quieter approach to arrests and detentions.
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SPEAKER_00: But we're seeing opposite tactics play out anyway.
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SPEAKER_00: Let's have you start us off.
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SPEAKER_00: What is happening in Springfield, Ohio, and who is being targeted?
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I want to say this extends well beyond Springfield,
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SPEAKER_01: but Springfield is the epicenter of this ICE surge because it has such
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SPEAKER_01: a high population of Haitian refugees.
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SPEAKER_01: And for another reason that I want to get into a little later on as we talk
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SPEAKER_01: about local cooperation, but we'll save that for now.
2:54
SPEAKER_01: So since TPS ended on July 27,
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SPEAKER_01: Haitians have had about A month to try to sort their affairs in order,
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SPEAKER_01: which is not nearly enough time in this immigration system.
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SPEAKER_01: And as a result, many have accepted what's called self-deportation.
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SPEAKER_01: So this offer on the part of the US government
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SPEAKER_01: to essentially pay these people $2,600,
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SPEAKER_01: which some say they're not even receiving, to go to Haiti.
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SPEAKER_01: And the vast majority, though,
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SPEAKER_01: have attempted to carry on their lives because Haiti is one of
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SPEAKER_01: the most dangerous countries in the world.
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SPEAKER_01: It has a level four travel advisory from the State Department,
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SPEAKER_01: which means US nationals are advised not to go to Haiti for any reason at all.
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SPEAKER_01: And when people arrive in Haiti, they've been...
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SPEAKER_01: Describing themselves as being targeted because people realize
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SPEAKER_01: that they are deportees from the United States and maybe don't have
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SPEAKER_01: as many connections in the country.
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SPEAKER_01: So they're vulnerable.
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SPEAKER_01: Regardless,
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SPEAKER_01: ICE has been cracking down on Haitians,
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SPEAKER_01: conducting mass arrests of Haitians in Ohio and putting ankle monitors on people
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SPEAKER_01: who have received final order of deportation as well in cases
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SPEAKER_01: when they cannot find housing capacity.
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SPEAKER_01: But even that being said, Jails are overcrowded.
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SPEAKER_01: We're hearing that Butler County Jail has a total of 1,100 inmates as of Friday out
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SPEAKER_01: of a general housing capacity of 844 and a recommendation from the state of 756.
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SPEAKER_01: So exceeding that capacity by about one third.
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SPEAKER_01: And again,
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SPEAKER_01: we don't know exactly how many people have been arrested by ICE in Ohio
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SPEAKER_01: since this crackdown began.
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SPEAKER_01: Nonetheless,
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SPEAKER_01: we do know that ICE arrested 50,000 people in July,
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SPEAKER_01: which is their highest number on record.
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SPEAKER_01: And so as you mentioned,
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SPEAKER_01: while Mark Wayne Mullen might be Professing a quieter approach,
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SPEAKER_01: the reality on the ground has been intense.
4:47
SPEAKER_01: And I want to get your take on this,
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SPEAKER_01: but I think that the fact that local media has been so decimated,
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SPEAKER_01: this is something we've talked about before,
4:56
SPEAKER_01: it's been so decimated in this country over the last 35 years.
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SPEAKER_01: Means that when ICE goes into small towns, sometimes there's no one to cover the story.
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SPEAKER_01: But I want to shout out two of the folks working really hard in Ohio.
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SPEAKER_01: One is Adriana Martinez-Smiley at WYSO, and then Megan Henry at Ohio Capital Journal.
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SPEAKER_01: These are two reporters who have been doing tremendous coverage.
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SPEAKER_00: This administration has done a particularly good job in destabilizing federal data
5:24
SPEAKER_00: across the board.
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SPEAKER_00: Anything from climate research and the complete breakdown of The National Oceanic
5:29
SPEAKER_00: and Atmospheric Administration for Climate Science to the official numbers and data
5:34
SPEAKER_00: of ICE arrests.
5:36
SPEAKER_00: What it really does is that it puts kind of pressure and a reliance on people
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SPEAKER_00: to volunteer that information.
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SPEAKER_00: So advocacy groups,
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SPEAKER_00: various different organizations like Hands Off NYC,
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SPEAKER_00: for example,
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SPEAKER_00: for people that are tracking ICE sightings and arrests in the New York City area.
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SPEAKER_00: And also these numbers can be inconsistent and very difficult to verify, right?
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SPEAKER_00: It's one thing to see an ICE sighting.
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SPEAKER_00: Another thing to see an arrest.
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SPEAKER_00: And it's another thing to understand where people are going after that.
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SPEAKER_00: Are they getting deported?
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SPEAKER_00: Are they getting ankle monitors or something else happening to them entirely?
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SPEAKER_00: So it has made it really difficult to understand the numbers and then narrate
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SPEAKER_00: the scope and the impact of these ice surges,
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SPEAKER_00: especially given that they're not being codified and officialized by
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SPEAKER_00: the government anymore.
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SPEAKER_00: This isn't being called Operation Metro Surge like it was in Minneapolis earlier this year.
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SPEAKER_00: They want that quieter approach.
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SPEAKER_00: It's by design.
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SPEAKER_00: And with the destabilization of the journalism industry,
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SPEAKER_00: it's very difficult to track and articulate the way
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SPEAKER_00: that it really should be right now.
6:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
6:39
SPEAKER_00: Why they're targeting Springfield right now against other cities.
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SPEAKER_01: I think that's very clear.
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SPEAKER_01: Springfield was the subject of this racist lie perpetuated during
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SPEAKER_01: the 2024 presidential campaign,
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SPEAKER_01: where both the president and vice president Vance claimed that Haitian refugees
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SPEAKER_01: in Ohio were eating people's pets, which was absolutely false.
7:03
SPEAKER_01: There's no evidence whatsoever.
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SPEAKER_01: But Donald Trump claimed that on a campaign stage, you know, we all heard the songs about it.
7:09
SPEAKER_01: We all heard the memes about it.
7:11
SPEAKER_01: But I think the events of this week show that that Yeah, yeah.
7:35
SPEAKER_00: This is a narrative decision.
7:37
SPEAKER_00: Springfield is not a place where the most Haitian refugees are located in the country.
7:42
SPEAKER_00: That's actually New York City and arguably probably Miami.
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SPEAKER_00: What we're seeing instead is a narrative decision here to kind
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SPEAKER_00: of undergird what Trump had said during his presidential campaign.
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SPEAKER_00: Those the racist information about Haitians eating people's dogs
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SPEAKER_00: and eating people's cats and And being criminals and things like that.
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SPEAKER_00: And then if he's able to go into Springfield,
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SPEAKER_00: Ohio and the surrounding towns and arrest and deport a bunch of Haitians,
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SPEAKER_00: he could then prove to his base,
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SPEAKER_00: look at what we did to make your country so-called safe, right?
8:13
SPEAKER_00: It is a narrative decision.
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SPEAKER_00: Back to ankle monitors now, this is the part that I think is really curious.
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SPEAKER_00: Haitians in Springfield specifically,
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SPEAKER_00: which is the only reported city in Ohio to be having this kind
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SPEAKER_00: of ankle monitor project or distribution so far,
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SPEAKER_00: Haitians are getting letters telling them to report to an ICE office
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SPEAKER_00: where they have their passports taken away from them and then they're given
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SPEAKER_00: an ankle monitor.
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SPEAKER_00: They are also given the Option to self-deport with their family,
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SPEAKER_00: like you had mentioned earlier.
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SPEAKER_00: So when they're given these ankle monitors,
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SPEAKER_00: they're given about a 75-mile radius,
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SPEAKER_00: and then that ankle monitor can go off at any time,
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SPEAKER_00: in which they then have to report to an ICE facility immediately thereafter.
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SPEAKER_00: We had a wonderful interview with a legal representative named Sarah Decker.
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SPEAKER_00: Whose organization is part of a class action lawsuit,
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SPEAKER_00: addressing the Inkle monitors and how they are actually incredibly abusive
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SPEAKER_00: and intrusive toward those wearing them.
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SPEAKER_00: It is a surveillance technology that is an infringement on people's basic human rights.
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SPEAKER_00: We will link that interview with Sarah Decker in our newsletter that goes out
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SPEAKER_00: with our podcast every week.
9:20
SPEAKER_00: There is a really interesting piece here in the Ohio Capital Journal that I wanted to cite.
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SPEAKER_00: In that piece,
9:25
SPEAKER_00: they interviewed a lawyer representing a Haitian refugee And the lawyer heard
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SPEAKER_00: an ICE officer tell this Haitian refugee,
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SPEAKER_00: if you keep coming back every time we call you through your ankle monitor,
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SPEAKER_00: that may help your immigration case.
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SPEAKER_00: And so the lawyer basically said,
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SPEAKER_00: That ICE officer was not in a position to be able to say that.
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SPEAKER_00: And he highly, highly doubts that that is actually the case.
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SPEAKER_00: So why ankle monitors?
9:49
SPEAKER_00: This is the other really important piece.
9:51
SPEAKER_01: Let's pause there just for a moment, because I think that's such a crucial part of the story.
9:56
SPEAKER_01: I just mentioned earlier that some of the people who self-deported are saying
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SPEAKER_01: that they did not receive the money that they were promised from the government
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SPEAKER_01: in exchange for that.
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SPEAKER_01: And Over and over and over again,
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SPEAKER_01: we have seen ICE lie to the public,
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SPEAKER_01: to the people they're detaining,
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SPEAKER_01: to the families of detainees,
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SPEAKER_01: in court,
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SPEAKER_01: to lawyers, to judges, about their activities, about what people can expect.
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SPEAKER_01: And so it just struck me as so typical when you said
10:24
SPEAKER_01: that this officer would give this woman who had just been given
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SPEAKER_01: the ankle monitor advice that is against her interests,
10:32
SPEAKER_01: that keeps her in a position where she might And I just think that so much
10:36
SPEAKER_01: about this ankle monitor story, again,
10:37
SPEAKER_01: like I mentioned last week,
10:38
SPEAKER_01: I've been reading very gory books about the Holocaust and pogroms surrounding
10:41
SPEAKER_01: the Holocaust, etc.
10:42
SPEAKER_01: And this part of identification
11:02
SPEAKER_01: And tracking of people who are being rounded up like this, it just resonates with me.
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SPEAKER_01: The ankle monitors,
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SPEAKER_01: yellow stars that Jews had to wear in Nazi Germany,
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SPEAKER_01: as well as ID cards in the Soviet Union that marked people out according
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SPEAKER_01: to ethnic groups and then were part of these vast national purges
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SPEAKER_01: that Tim Snyder writes about in Bloodland.
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SPEAKER_01: The ankle monitor sounds like a humane gesture,
11:27
SPEAKER_01: but to me it is actually one of the more disturbing actions that has come out
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SPEAKER_01: of this.
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SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
11:32
SPEAKER_00: And there are some pretty interesting reasons as to why they're using ankle monitors
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SPEAKER_00: on Haitian refugees.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm going to briefly harken back to the Sarah Decker interview that we did a few weeks ago.
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SPEAKER_00: As I mentioned previously, she's a legal representative with the Kennedy Human Rights Center.
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SPEAKER_00: And there's a financial incentive to give immigrants,
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SPEAKER_00: refugees, and in this case, Haitians in Ohio, ankle monitors.
11:57
SPEAKER_00: The vendor that provides these ankle monitors is making a lot
12:00
SPEAKER_00: of money per person provided the ankle monitors.
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SPEAKER_00: The second bit here is that there are so many people who lost TPS status,
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SPEAKER_00: not only Haitians, but again, Syrians, Yemenis.
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SPEAKER_00: And there are simply too many people to deport at once.
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SPEAKER_00: And so...
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SPEAKER_00: The ankle monitors are a means to round up people quickly,
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SPEAKER_00: and then when ICE is ready,
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SPEAKER_00: they have easy logistics to place where these folks are and then deport them swiftly
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SPEAKER_00: to any number of countries that have agreed to receive deportees from all over
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SPEAKER_00: the world.
12:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:35
SPEAKER_01: And not to hammer on this further,
12:36
SPEAKER_01: but that just made me think of the Warsaw Ghetto,
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SPEAKER_01: where Jews from across Poland were concentrated in this one camp,
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SPEAKER_01: in this one neighborhood in Warsaw,
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SPEAKER_01: and then liquidated in phases over the course of the Holocaust.
12:47
SPEAKER_01: So it's something that's a logistical problem that you encounter so often
12:51
SPEAKER_01: when studying these kinds of totalitarian actions on the part of many governments
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SPEAKER_01: that comes to the fore.
12:57
SPEAKER_00: I have one more thing I want to mention about the Springfield,
13:00
SPEAKER_00: Ohio and the Springfield surrounding area ice surge that we've been talking about
13:04
SPEAKER_00: so far is what about law enforcement?
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SPEAKER_00: Who is potentially helping ICE and immigration enforcement?
13:11
SPEAKER_00: And Springfield is not a sanctuary city.
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SPEAKER_00: However, Springfield does not at this time have any 287G contracts with ICE.
13:21
SPEAKER_00: As we mentioned in other episodes,
13:22
SPEAKER_00: 287G contracts are,
13:24
SPEAKER_00: this is a program that enables local law enforcement to cooperate with ICE and
13:28
SPEAKER_00: to help with immigration enforcement arrests, right?
13:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:32
SPEAKER_00: So, the local station there, WYSO,
13:35
SPEAKER_00: asked five sheriff offices and six police departments in places with some of
13:39
SPEAKER_00: the highest Haitian populations to gain a little bit of clarity as
13:43
SPEAKER_00: to how they're going to handle local ICE activity.
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SPEAKER_00: The majority of them did not respond,
13:48
SPEAKER_00: so the question is still out as to whether or not they have 287G contracts.
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SPEAKER_00: However,
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SPEAKER_00: they did confirm that Hamilton County and the offices in Dayton and the offices
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SPEAKER_00: in Springfield were are not planning to participate in the 2H7G program to help
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SPEAKER_00: with ICE arrests.
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SPEAKER_01: He said in an email,
14:33
SPEAKER_01: While simultaneously assuring that a US citizen's civil rights are protected.
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SPEAKER_01: That's not everybody in the county.
14:40
SPEAKER_01: That's not everyone who might be subject to his jurisdiction.
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SPEAKER_01: He is specifically saying that his assurance of civil rights protections are limited
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SPEAKER_01: to US citizens.
14:51
SPEAKER_00: What a sketchy thing to say.
14:54
SPEAKER_00: That makes me think that they are open to the idea of 287G if it is advantageous enough.
15:01
SPEAKER_00: That's what it feels like, basically.
15:03
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
15:03
SPEAKER_01: And just one other thing on 287G that I wanted to bring up,
15:07
SPEAKER_01: like you mentioned, Springfield itself does not have a 287G agreement with ICE.
15:12
SPEAKER_01: The police chief confirmed that.
15:14
SPEAKER_01: However,
15:16
SPEAKER_01: multiple guests we've talked to about 287G have pointed out that places
15:20
SPEAKER_01: that lack 287G agreements actually tend to get More direct ICE involvement, right?
15:26
SPEAKER_01: They tend to be the subject of bigger raids because since ICE cannot rely
15:31
SPEAKER_01: on local authorities to act as their manpower, they have to go in themselves.
15:37
SPEAKER_01: So I think that's also part of the reason.
15:38
SPEAKER_01: It's the narrative, absolutely.
15:40
SPEAKER_01: That's the number one reason Springfield is being targeted.
15:43
SPEAKER_01: But an additional reason is because of this 287G agreement situation,
15:47
SPEAKER_01: which Springfield city authorities do not have with ICE.
15:51
SPEAKER_01: That actually...
15:52
SPEAKER_01: Perhaps paradoxically or counterintuitively leads
15:56
SPEAKER_01: to more ICE officers being deployed in communities like that.
16:00
SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
16:00
SPEAKER_00: Or can lead
16:01
SPEAKER_01: to it.
16:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
16:01
SPEAKER_01: We said this would happen.
16:03
SPEAKER_01: It is happening.
16:04
SPEAKER_01: We're going to keep covering it.
16:05
SPEAKER_01: But Springfield isn't the only place in the country where there's just a not
16:09
SPEAKER_01: so subtle surge in ICE arrests.
16:11
SPEAKER_01: So Kelly, tell us what's happening in your hometown of New York City.
16:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:14
SPEAKER_00: New York City is also experiencing a surge that is difficult to articulate
16:19
SPEAKER_00: and difficult to give shape to.
16:22
SPEAKER_00: But in order to understand it,
16:23
SPEAKER_00: we have to go back to a border security conference in May
16:27
SPEAKER_00: when border czar Tom Homan really disparaged New York City and any city
16:32
SPEAKER_00: that is creating policies that prevent cooperation with ICE.
16:37
SPEAKER_00: So he specifically said, quote,
16:39
SPEAKER_00: if people pass ridiculous legislation not to work with us,
16:43
SPEAKER_00: we're going to flood the zone.
16:45
SPEAKER_00: You're going to see more ICE agents than you've ever seen before." And he made
16:50
SPEAKER_00: that threat specifically to New York City in May.
16:53
SPEAKER_00: So cut to June.
16:55
SPEAKER_00: Since June,
16:56
SPEAKER_00: immigrants and community members,
16:58
SPEAKER_00: concerned citizens,
16:59
SPEAKER_00: volunteer organizations,
17:01
SPEAKER_00: advocacy organizations,
17:03
SPEAKER_00: Across all five boroughs,
17:05
SPEAKER_00: especially in Queens,
17:06
SPEAKER_00: where the immigrant population is significant,
17:09
SPEAKER_00: they have all reported increased ICE sightings, right?
17:12
SPEAKER_00: It is very difficult to confirm if the increased ICE sightings has led
17:16
SPEAKER_00: to ICE arrests and detentions in equal measure.
17:20
SPEAKER_00: Also at this time,
17:21
SPEAKER_00: there is no official confirmation from DHS or ICE saying that there is
17:26
SPEAKER_00: a committed operation in the boroughs of New York.
17:30
SPEAKER_00: Any data that we have right now is coming from a patchwork
17:33
SPEAKER_00: of self-reported information that is incomplete and difficult to verify.
17:38
SPEAKER_00: But there are a few data points and markers that indicate a surge and indicate
17:44
SPEAKER_00: an increase in those ICE sightings.
17:48
SPEAKER_00: There is an organization called NYC Icebreaker that has shown that in Queens,
17:53
SPEAKER_00: they have been particularly impacted in this borough with 44 sightings since
17:58
SPEAKER_00: the beginning of June.
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SPEAKER_00: That is a 48% increase in sightings compared to previous months before June.
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SPEAKER_00: In July, I seem to be targeting specific areas like coronavirus.
18:10
SPEAKER_00: Elmhurst, Flushing, College Point, all in Queens, by the
18:13
SPEAKER_01: way.
18:15
SPEAKER_01: Queens, the most linguistically diverse area on the planet.
18:18
SPEAKER_01: More languages spoken in Queens than almost any other place you care to mention.
18:23
SPEAKER_00: Yes, and Queens is such a family-friendly, community-oriented borough.
18:27
SPEAKER_00: It's my favorite borough in New York City.
18:29
SPEAKER_00: You could go to a Nepalese restaurant and then a block later,
18:34
SPEAKER_00: Get the most authentic Filipino food you'll ever see in your life.
18:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:43
SPEAKER_00: And then the most amazing Thai food and like Uzbek food.
18:46
SPEAKER_00: And it's really just one of the most amazing and incredible boroughs in the world.
18:49
SPEAKER_00: And also these immigrant diasporas have been baked into the borough of Queens for generations.
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SPEAKER_00: It's a significant place.
18:58
SPEAKER_00: And the idea that sightings are happening usually in the morning,
19:02
SPEAKER_00: they try to target people at gas stations.
19:03
SPEAKER_00: They try to target people on their way to work.
19:06
SPEAKER_00: And to think about this place that is so predominantly family friendly,
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SPEAKER_00: The impact is significant,
19:10
SPEAKER_00: even toward those that are not directly involved in these arrests by ICE.
19:15
SPEAKER_00: The thing that fascinates me is that there have been a lot of sightings,
19:18
SPEAKER_00: but is there data on arrests?
19:21
SPEAKER_00: And the data has been curiously evasive.
19:23
SPEAKER_00: But the great folks that documented were able to find some data that makes
19:27
SPEAKER_00: the most sense in indicating where the search is most prominent, right?
19:32
SPEAKER_00: They looked at immigrant court filings of habeas corpus claims,
19:36
SPEAKER_00: and it gives us some indications.
19:37
SPEAKER_00: So in August, there were 217 habeas corpus filings of immigrants that were detained.
19:44
SPEAKER_00: When you are detained by ICE,
19:45
SPEAKER_00: you have about 24 hours or at least are encouraged in the first 24 hours to file
19:49
SPEAKER_00: a habeas corpus claim to say, hey, I deserve my freedom.
19:53
SPEAKER_00: This detention does not make any sense.
19:55
SPEAKER_00: Please get me out of detention.
19:56
SPEAKER_00: That's basically what a habeas corpus filing is.
19:58
SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's much more.
20:00
SPEAKER_01: No, but I mean, habeas corpus is intended.
20:02
SPEAKER_01: It literally means show me the body.
20:05
SPEAKER_01: You're supposed to be presented before a magistrate and formally presented
20:09
SPEAKER_01: with reasons for your detention.
20:12
SPEAKER_01: That's kind of the extent of it,
20:13
SPEAKER_01: but it's a fundamental protection that has been part of English common law since
20:18
SPEAKER_01: the 13th century.
20:20
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, I've said all of that before on this podcast.
20:21
SPEAKER_01: Continue, please.
20:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's basically a legal way to say show us the receipts, right?
20:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yes.
20:28
SPEAKER_00: So in August, there were 217 Habeas corpus filings.
20:31
SPEAKER_00: That is significantly the highest recorded number of filings since February.
20:37
SPEAKER_00: The second highest was documented back in July with 187 filings.
20:42
SPEAKER_00: This is inexact data because while it is encouraged
20:45
SPEAKER_00: to file these habeas corpus claims within 24 hours of arrest,
20:49
SPEAKER_00: sometimes they're done weeks after or months after.
20:52
SPEAKER_00: So 217 filings were done in August,
20:56
SPEAKER_00: but some of those may have been from an arrest conducted in April or May
21:00
SPEAKER_00: or even January.
21:02
SPEAKER_00: But that is the data that we have right now.
21:04
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for getting in on all of that, Kelly.
21:06
SPEAKER_01: I know this is personal.
21:07
SPEAKER_01: This is where you live, you know, so I appreciate you diving in on the subject.
21:11
SPEAKER_00: Matt, you have got the latest from Trump's growing network of third country deportations, right?
21:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:17
SPEAKER_00: So over a 10 day period last month,
21:20
SPEAKER_00: the Trump administration sent more than 100 deportees to eight countries
21:24
SPEAKER_00: across Africa to Expanding its third country deportation campaign.
21:29
SPEAKER_00: What is the latest here?
21:31
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
21:31
SPEAKER_01: So we have been mentioning for months these agreements,
21:35
SPEAKER_01: rather secretive agreements in most cases,
21:37
SPEAKER_01: that the Trump administration has arrived at with countries like Burundi,
21:41
SPEAKER_01: Cameroon,
21:42
SPEAKER_01: Central African Republic,
21:43
SPEAKER_01: Equatorial Guinea, Liberia, Iswatini, Rwanda, Sierra Leone.
21:47
SPEAKER_01: The list goes on.
21:49
SPEAKER_01: And basically these agreements would allow the U.S.
21:53
SPEAKER_01: to deport
21:57
SPEAKER_01: And this month really seems to be the month where all
22:01
SPEAKER_01: of these things kicked off.
22:03
SPEAKER_01: As far as we know,
22:05
SPEAKER_01: the deportees,
22:07
SPEAKER_01: these hundred deportees that we're talking about
22:09
SPEAKER_01: that this Reporting has surfaced are from Afghanistan, Cuba,
22:13
SPEAKER_01: Nicaragua, Nepal, Turkey, Iran,
22:16
SPEAKER_01: and Venezuela,
22:17
SPEAKER_01: and possibly detainees from other African countries,
22:21
SPEAKER_01: although there's some disagreement about that.
22:23
SPEAKER_01: We know for sure that flights arrived in Liberia and Equatorial Guinea.
22:29
SPEAKER_01: There may have been other places where flights arrived as well.
22:33
SPEAKER_01: And the intrepid reporting from CBS News and the New York Times reaching out to some
22:40
SPEAKER_01: of these folks who had been deported about their experience on the flights and
22:46
SPEAKER_01: on how they were treated by DH.
22:48
SPEAKER_01: DHS while they were in the air.
22:51
SPEAKER_01: And there's just some really harrowing quotes.
22:53
SPEAKER_01: All of these folks were chained by the hands and feet as well as around the belly.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: They were not allowed to use the restroom while on the flight.
23:02
SPEAKER_01: That's according to the detainees interviewed, whereas DHS says that they were allowed.
23:09
SPEAKER_01: But DHS is always going to deny all of that.
23:11
SPEAKER_01: There's a man named Leonardo Sanchez.
23:14
SPEAKER_01: He was a 49-year-old Cuban.
23:16
SPEAKER_01: He arrived in In 2010,
23:17
SPEAKER_01: so he's been living in this country for 16 years under the Cuban Adjustment Act.
23:22
SPEAKER_01: In 2018, he was stabbed and shot in the stomach during a robbery in Miami.
23:28
SPEAKER_01: He was in a coma for 40 days,
23:31
SPEAKER_01: and doctors said that there was a Thin piece of skin that they had grafted on
23:36
SPEAKER_01: that was holding his insides in,
23:39
SPEAKER_01: basically his intestines in, and that needed further surgical repair.
23:42
SPEAKER_01: But nonetheless,
23:43
SPEAKER_01: on this flight,
23:44
SPEAKER_01: he was cuffed at the wrists and ankles with a chain around his waist,
23:47
SPEAKER_01: digging into his abdomen.
23:49
SPEAKER_01: He said he begged for medical attentions.
23:51
SPEAKER_01: Agents wouldn't provide medical attentions, wouldn't let him use the toilet.
23:54
SPEAKER_01: He urinated on himself during the flight.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: When he arrived in Liberia in Monrovia, he refused to get off the flight.
24:01
SPEAKER_01: ICE officers proceed to yank him and twist the handcuffs,
24:05
SPEAKER_01: pin him down,
24:06
SPEAKER_01: press their knees onto his neck,
24:08
SPEAKER_01: and kneel on his abdomen where he has this very delicate injury.
24:11
SPEAKER_01: And so basically they were torturing him to get him off the plane.
24:14
SPEAKER_01: They didn't just carry him off.
24:15
SPEAKER_01: They inflicted a lot of pain on him and put him at risk of his life to get him off this plane.
24:21
SPEAKER_01: And he says that the reason that he was on ICE's radar is he got a year
24:25
SPEAKER_01: of probation last year after a cocaine possession conviction during a traffic stop.
24:31
SPEAKER_01: He completed 40 hours of community service, paid a $3,200 fine.
24:35
SPEAKER_01: Like, obviously, we don't want people...
24:37
SPEAKER_01: I was about to mention that.
24:42
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
24:44
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
24:48
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
24:48
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
24:49
SPEAKER_01: You certainly don't deserve to be tortured and flown to a country you've never been
24:54
SPEAKER_01: to before for that conviction.
24:56
SPEAKER_01: So I just wanted to highlight that.
24:58
SPEAKER_01: That came from the New York Times story of people being sent to Liberia.
25:01
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
25:02
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
25:03
SPEAKER_00: Well, Matt, thank you for sharing all of this.
25:05
SPEAKER_00: We're going to take a quick break and sit down with John Schloist,
25:08
SPEAKER_00: who is the president of News Guild CWA.
25:11
SPEAKER_00: We're going to discuss with him how a new DHS rule that if put into force
25:15
SPEAKER_00: on September 15th,
25:17
SPEAKER_00: it'll leave international students, travelers and foreign journalists in the lurch.
25:21
SPEAKER_00: Stick with us.
25:30
SPEAKER_01: Hi guys, Matt here.
25:31
SPEAKER_01: I'm so proud to say that we have just passed our sixth month mark on This Week
25:35
SPEAKER_01: On ICE, and we couldn't have done it without you.
25:38
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25:39
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25:43
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25:47
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25:50
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25:54
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25:58
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26:02
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26:04
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26:28
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26:37
SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to This Week On ICE.
26:39
SPEAKER_00: I'm here with John Schloyce, who is the president of News Guild CWA.
26:43
SPEAKER_00: His organization is a labor union that has joined a coalition challenging
26:48
SPEAKER_00: a new DHS rule that changes how long international students,
26:52
SPEAKER_00: exchange visitors, and foreign journalists can remain in the United States.
26:56
SPEAKER_00: The lawsuit argues that DHS exceeded its authority in putting forth a rule
27:00
SPEAKER_00: that effectively shortens the duration of iVisas and raises serious concerns
27:05
SPEAKER_00: about uncertainty and the potential chilling effect on international reporting in
27:09
SPEAKER_00: the United States.
27:11
SPEAKER_00: John is going to talk about the roots of this lawsuit What it says
27:14
SPEAKER_00: about press freedom and immigration enforcement, and what to expect next.
27:18
SPEAKER_00: John, thank you for joining us.
27:21
SPEAKER_02: It's great to be with you and actually talk about how we can fight back
27:23
SPEAKER_02: against things that are making our country worse.
27:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
27:28
SPEAKER_00: John, let's go ahead and talk about the roots of this lawsuit.
27:30
SPEAKER_00: What is this lawsuit trying to accomplish?
27:33
SPEAKER_00: And why does the News Guild believe these changes pose a threat to journalists
27:37
SPEAKER_00: and press freedom?
27:39
SPEAKER_02: There are a ton of very complicated visa rules in the United States as
27:43
SPEAKER_02: in any country, but in regard to this particular type of visa, it's an iVisa.
27:48
SPEAKER_02: And so we represent North America's journalists, media workers, other workers as well.
27:54
SPEAKER_02: We have about 28,000 members in our union, including in Canada and Puerto Rico.
27:59
SPEAKER_02: And we represent workers and a lot of media workers at really large newsrooms.
28:03
SPEAKER_02: Think about the New York Times, Reuters, the Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal.
28:07
SPEAKER_02: We represent folks at small publications as well, like the Boise, Idaho Statesmen.
28:12
SPEAKER_02: But in that,
28:14
SPEAKER_02: we represent a bunch of journalists who are here and grew up in the United States
28:19
SPEAKER_02: of America or journalists in the United States of America.
28:21
SPEAKER_02: But we also represent foreign journalists at publications like Reuters, at FA,
28:26
SPEAKER_02: at Agence France Press,
28:27
SPEAKER_02: who are Work in the United States full-time to cover international news
28:32
SPEAKER_02: for their home country,
28:34
SPEAKER_02: which could be Spain,
28:35
SPEAKER_02: in the case of EFE,
28:36
SPEAKER_02: could be France for Agence France-Presse,
28:38
SPEAKER_02: but also that goes to an international audience and an audience here locally.
28:42
SPEAKER_02: And so the Department of Homeland Security proposed last fall Changing the duration
28:49
SPEAKER_02: of stay for international journalists.
28:51
SPEAKER_02: So this would go from what is currently a five-year visa down to 240 days.
28:58
SPEAKER_02: So it's a huge change in the amount of time that someone can actually work in
29:02
SPEAKER_02: the United States if they're foreign.
29:04
SPEAKER_02: And that's a real problem for press freedom because we,
29:07
SPEAKER_02: the United States, founded under the principle of a free press.
29:11
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's one of the five guaranteed freedoms that we have in our Bill of Rights
29:14
SPEAKER_02: and our Constitution.
29:16
SPEAKER_02: And the United States should be actively supporting a free press.
29:19
SPEAKER_02: So we see by changing this rule,
29:22
SPEAKER_02: by trying to reduce the amount of time that journalists can stay in
29:25
SPEAKER_02: the United States,
29:26
SPEAKER_02: has a huge impact in trying to chill the reporting by journalists who are here in
29:30
SPEAKER_02: the country, probably covering major news like immigration.
29:34
SPEAKER_02: And this is actively targeting them and their ability to stay and work in
29:37
SPEAKER_02: the United States of America.
29:39
SPEAKER_02: But it's also just part of a broader unfortunate crackdown by
29:42
SPEAKER_02: the Trump administration in attacking journalists,
29:45
SPEAKER_02: including assaulting them directly in the streets in our cities.
29:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
29:50
SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about this in practical terms.
29:51
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the change here is the duration of stay from five years to 240 days.
29:57
SPEAKER_00: What would happen to international journalists if the rule takes effect and then
30:01
SPEAKER_00: the court does not intervene, practically speaking?
30:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's why we jumped into action immediately because we have dozens of members
30:09
SPEAKER_02: at several publications who reached out to us immediately.
30:12
SPEAKER_02: Last year when the first proposed rule,
30:14
SPEAKER_02: like this goes on like DHS website,
30:16
SPEAKER_02: the public can comment, our members put in tons and Tons of comments.
30:20
SPEAKER_02: We put our own comments in.
30:21
SPEAKER_02: There were more than like 20,000, I think, comments overall.
30:24
SPEAKER_02: And the vast majority of them were overwhelmingly against this.
30:27
SPEAKER_02: And we're in this lawsuit with these great other partners,
30:30
SPEAKER_02: which includes NAFSA,
30:31
SPEAKER_02: the President's Alliance,
30:33
SPEAKER_02: other unions like the American Federation of Teachers, the Auto Workers Union.
30:37
SPEAKER_02: And because it's also not only impacting journalists,
30:40
SPEAKER_02: it's impacting graduate student workers, too.
30:42
SPEAKER_02: So they're on F and J visas and the journalists are on I visas.
30:45
SPEAKER_02: But essentially what this would do is call It will cause a foreign journalist
30:49
SPEAKER_02: if this rule does go into effect and the courts don't block it,
30:53
SPEAKER_02: which we hope happens.
30:53
SPEAKER_02: That's why we filed this lawsuit and we're asking for a preliminary injunction.
30:57
SPEAKER_02: But what would actually happen is that a journalist would have to go home immediately.
31:01
SPEAKER_02: And we've got journalists who have worked for We've seen these publications
31:04
SPEAKER_02: and international outlets for years already, maybe decades in some cases.
31:08
SPEAKER_02: And so they have like spouses who live here.
31:10
SPEAKER_02: They have homes that they own in the United States.
31:12
SPEAKER_02: They're paying taxes in the United States.
31:15
SPEAKER_02: They've set up their lives.
31:16
SPEAKER_02: They might even have kids who go to school in the United States
31:18
SPEAKER_02: because they're here permanently working for this publication.
31:22
SPEAKER_02: In essence, if this rule does go into effect, they would have a very short amount of time.
31:25
SPEAKER_02: They'd have to leave the United States of America.
31:27
SPEAKER_02: And as far as I can tell,
31:28
SPEAKER_02: there's never been an instance where a journalist who's been on
31:31
SPEAKER_02: an iVisa has actually overstayed their welcome and gone past the duration
31:35
SPEAKER_02: that had already existed, the five-year plan, before it was renewed.
31:39
SPEAKER_02: And so this would actually cause them to have to uproot their lives
31:41
SPEAKER_02: and stop publication, which would be really horrible and devastating.
31:45
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
31:46
SPEAKER_00: And so I'm curious about the other side of this argument.
31:50
SPEAKER_00: What is Trump trying to say as his major defense in changing this rule?
31:54
SPEAKER_00: We know the broader story.
31:55
SPEAKER_00: The broader story is that this underscores Trump's overall attacks on press freedom
31:59
SPEAKER_00: and his attack on the Fourth Estate.
32:00
SPEAKER_00: But what is the defense that he is claiming for this particular rule change?
32:06
SPEAKER_02: They haven't really offered a defense.
32:08
SPEAKER_02: They've lobbed this in with going after grad student workers too, right?
32:11
SPEAKER_02: That's why we're in this coalition with folks who represent grad student workers,
32:14
SPEAKER_02: because there's a lot of frustration by the Trump administration over institutions
32:20
SPEAKER_02: of higher learning, right?
32:21
SPEAKER_02: Like the research that's done, the political action that happens in college campuses, right?
32:26
SPEAKER_02: They're going after that.
32:27
SPEAKER_02: And then also by nature going after the free press.
32:30
SPEAKER_02: And so it's part of like a widespread attack.
32:33
SPEAKER_02: So I talked about how like This Trump administration and the Department
32:37
SPEAKER_02: of Homeland Security and ICE agents have actively assaulted journalists in
32:41
SPEAKER_02: the streets of the United States of America.
32:42
SPEAKER_02: That's happened in several different places.
32:44
SPEAKER_02: We've had to file other lawsuits.
32:45
SPEAKER_02: We have active lawsuits in Southern California and Minnesota.
32:48
SPEAKER_02: Examples of that include We had one of our members,
32:51
SPEAKER_02: Ryan Minna,
32:52
SPEAKER_02: who's a local reporter in Southern California,
32:54
SPEAKER_02: was out covering ICE activity, protests, immigration raids.
32:58
SPEAKER_02: And they noticed her.
32:59
SPEAKER_02: She was wearing an actual press badge.
33:01
SPEAKER_02: She had her reporter's notebook.
33:03
SPEAKER_02: It was very clear she was a journalist.
33:05
SPEAKER_02: And one of the agents lifted his gun and shot her with a pepper ball round right to her leg.
33:10
SPEAKER_02: She goes out the next day and actually covers another instance of immigration enforcement.
33:15
SPEAKER_02: And it's a similar situation where another federal agent actually raises their gun
33:19
SPEAKER_02: and shoots her in the side of the head with a rubber bullet.
33:22
SPEAKER_02: And in Minnesota, we had like federal agents who actively shot.
33:27
SPEAKER_02: We had a photographer from the St. Paul Pioneer Press who was wearing a blue ballistic vest.
33:32
SPEAKER_02: It was actually like super cold out.
33:34
SPEAKER_02: It was below 20 degrees.
33:35
SPEAKER_02: This was right after Alex Preddy was killed by federal agents.
33:39
SPEAKER_02: And he was out covering the protest and the demonstration, negative 20 degrees.
33:43
SPEAKER_02: His gas mask that he had brought,
33:44
SPEAKER_02: knowing that there'd be tear gas to spread,
33:47
SPEAKER_02: was actually not able to function at that temperature, 20 below.
33:51
SPEAKER_02: So he left it behind.
33:52
SPEAKER_02: And then another federal agent here in Minnesota then lifted his gun
33:57
SPEAKER_02: and shot him square in the chest where it said literally the words press
34:01
SPEAKER_02: across his chest, shot him with a tear gas canister point blank.
34:04
SPEAKER_02: Like this is how this administration is going after journalists.
34:07
SPEAKER_02: And that's not even to mention the fact that he's suing news organizations,
34:11
SPEAKER_02: that he's trying to like inflict his powers over the FCC and control like mergers.
34:17
SPEAKER_02: It's yeah, it's all part of like a large...
34:20
SPEAKER_02: really disturbed authoritarian push to try and silence a free press.
34:26
SPEAKER_00: And so our show focuses on the Trump administration's very broad
34:30
SPEAKER_00: and unprecedented immigration crackdown.
34:32
SPEAKER_00: And so let's turn specifically to immigration.
34:34
SPEAKER_00: You've described this as an attack on journalists and the First Amendment, press freedom.
34:39
SPEAKER_00: And so can you kind of draw the through line here between immigration policy
34:44
SPEAKER_00: and press freedom, if there is one?
34:47
SPEAKER_02: The United States of America was founded 250 years ago,
34:50
SPEAKER_02: and the belief was that we had to have a free press.
34:54
SPEAKER_02: We had to have independent journalists to tell the folks who vote and
35:00
SPEAKER_02: who elect officials and who vote.
35:03
SPEAKER_02: In fact,
35:03
SPEAKER_02: are running the country on our behalf,
35:05
SPEAKER_02: the public's behalf,
35:07
SPEAKER_02: we had to have journalists who were out there holding them to account.
35:10
SPEAKER_02: And by doing that, we needed to set up a system where we would make them free and independent.
35:14
SPEAKER_02: That's why a free press is one of our five founding freedoms in the First Amendment.
35:20
SPEAKER_02: And so journalists have this important,
35:22
SPEAKER_02: crucial role that they play,
35:24
SPEAKER_02: but It's also this larger global vision,
35:28
SPEAKER_02: I'd say,
35:28
SPEAKER_02: because one of the things that we should do as the United States
35:31
SPEAKER_02: of America is provide the view of how journalists should operate.
35:35
SPEAKER_02: They are not controlled and complicit to the government.
35:39
SPEAKER_02: They need to be out there to do the work of lifting up the voiceless,
35:43
SPEAKER_02: of holding power to account,
35:44
SPEAKER_02: of being in the city council meetings and the school board meetings,
35:46
SPEAKER_02: and also covering our high school sports games.
35:48
SPEAKER_02: They need to be able to do all that independent of government interference.
35:53
SPEAKER_02: When the United States government and the Trump administration is trying to restrict
35:56
SPEAKER_02: the access to foreign journalists in the United States of America,
36:00
SPEAKER_02: what that does is signal how other authoritarian regimes can do this
36:04
SPEAKER_02: in other countries.
36:05
SPEAKER_02: We do not see a free press in a lot of countries like Russia or China
36:09
SPEAKER_02: or very controlled and authoritarian regimes.
36:12
SPEAKER_02: We don't see that.
36:13
SPEAKER_02: And that's a shame because the United States was found on the principle
36:16
SPEAKER_02: of fresh freedom, so we should be that beacon around the world.
36:18
SPEAKER_02: And so it's tied directly to...
36:20
SPEAKER_02: Trying to limit foreign press from coming in is a signal of an overall attack
36:25
SPEAKER_02: on limiting all immigrants coming to the United States of America,
36:28
SPEAKER_02: but also just trying to show how to close borders,
36:32
SPEAKER_02: lock people out,
36:33
SPEAKER_02: stop the flow of information,
36:35
SPEAKER_02: which is all just not how the United States has found it.
36:39
SPEAKER_00: I'm curious if this is a scenario that can actually play out,
36:42
SPEAKER_00: and it might sound kind of crazy, but...
36:44
SPEAKER_00: I imagine,
36:44
SPEAKER_00: let's just say that there is another massive surge of protests outside
36:48
SPEAKER_00: of Delaney Hall,
36:49
SPEAKER_00: and there's a bunch of journalists coming to the scene to broadcast
36:53
SPEAKER_00: and document those protests.
36:55
SPEAKER_00: Is this an incentive potentially to start arresting journalists because, oh, well,
37:00
SPEAKER_00: they might have an iVisa,
37:01
SPEAKER_00: and therefore we have to arrest and detain them on an immigration enforcement level?
37:06
SPEAKER_00: Is that a crazy scenario?
37:08
SPEAKER_00: That was the one that played out in my head immediately when I read your lawsuit.
37:12
SPEAKER_00: Would love your insight on that.
37:14
SPEAKER_02: I don't think that's crazy at all.
37:15
SPEAKER_02: I mean, we've seen them already detain and arrest journalists for other matters.
37:20
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
37:20
SPEAKER_02: we've seen them detain and arrest journalists who they already were claiming were in
37:23
SPEAKER_02: the country illegally and not on a visa.
37:25
SPEAKER_02: We've seen them attack journalists who are American citizens.
37:29
SPEAKER_02: So I don't think it's sadly that far-fetched to think that they would actually try
37:34
SPEAKER_02: and restrict foreign reporters' access.
37:36
SPEAKER_02: Early on in the immigration raid I don't think it's that far of a stretch to think
37:40
SPEAKER_02: that they would actually want to arrest and go after them.
37:42
SPEAKER_02: This is why we've been trying to file
37:54
SPEAKER_02: We've won the ability to make sure that the federal government knows
38:02
SPEAKER_02: that they can't attack not only journalists and media workers,
38:05
SPEAKER_02: but peaceful protesters and legal observers.
38:07
SPEAKER_02: That was an injunction we won in Southern California with the ACLU of Southern California.
38:11
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, we have to kind of remain vigilant because they absolutely would do that.
38:15
SPEAKER_02: And beyond that, they'd also want to chill.
38:17
SPEAKER_02: FA is a Spanish language outlet that's based in Spain.
38:21
SPEAKER_02: And the Broadcast news into a lot of Spanish speaking countries.
38:25
SPEAKER_02: Well, a lot of the news that Spanish speaking folks are interested in involves
38:29
SPEAKER_02: the immigration policy of the United States of America.
38:32
SPEAKER_02: And so it also has like an attempt to chill,
38:35
SPEAKER_02: even if it's not like threatening arrest,
38:37
SPEAKER_02: it's chilling the ability of like a reporter to even cover the subject because
38:40
SPEAKER_02: then now they're involved in like trying to be deported
38:44
SPEAKER_02: or having like their stay reduced by these changes.
38:47
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
38:48
SPEAKER_00: And for those who are on this iVisa,
38:51
SPEAKER_00: which is not only foreign journalists,
38:52
SPEAKER_00: but also international students,
38:54
SPEAKER_00: exchange visitors,
38:55
SPEAKER_00: what are some immediate action items they're going to need to take right now?
39:00
SPEAKER_02: Gosh, I mean, like,
39:01
SPEAKER_02: you know,
39:01
SPEAKER_02: for the folks who, like,
39:02
SPEAKER_02: own a house, like,
39:03
SPEAKER_02: you know,
39:03
SPEAKER_02: they're, like,
39:04
SPEAKER_02: trying to figure out, like,
39:05
SPEAKER_02: how they can actually, like,
39:06
SPEAKER_02: keep their house, maybe, like,
39:07
SPEAKER_02: have to transfer ownership,
39:08
SPEAKER_02: put it in a trust, like, make sure that they're protected.
39:10
SPEAKER_02: If they've got children,
39:12
SPEAKER_02: you know,
39:12
SPEAKER_02: who are in school in the United States that,
39:14
SPEAKER_02: you know, that are also here, they're going to have to figure out those plans.
39:17
SPEAKER_02: It's also, like,
39:17
SPEAKER_02: impacting the coverage that they're probably thinking through,
39:20
SPEAKER_02: because,
39:21
SPEAKER_02: again, we go back to that chilling effect of, like, this actually impacting them.
39:25
SPEAKER_02: It's really scary because for some people they've built their professional lives in
39:28
SPEAKER_02: the United States working for a foreign outlet and they've done a great job
39:32
SPEAKER_02: and they haven't violated the rules previously.
39:35
SPEAKER_02: They haven't done anything wrong other than to just do their job as a good journalist.
39:39
SPEAKER_02: And so that's a real shame.
39:40
SPEAKER_02: It's one of the reasons that we've asked for what's called a preliminary injunction, right?
39:43
SPEAKER_02: You file these lawsuits knowing that it'll take a long time for both sides
39:47
SPEAKER_02: to present their cases.
39:48
SPEAKER_02: And so you ask a federal judge to give a preliminary injunction to try and stop
39:52
SPEAKER_02: the rule from going into effect.
39:53
SPEAKER_02: And so that's what we're hoping for so that we can just use it all and actually have
39:57
SPEAKER_02: a judge look at whether or not what the Department of Homeland Security
40:00
SPEAKER_02: and ICE is doing And so when it comes to that 240 days,
40:03
SPEAKER_02: so is that how much time a foreign journalist,
40:04
SPEAKER_02: for example, under this iVisa has to like get their affairs in order?
40:06
SPEAKER_02: Is that the timeline?
40:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it could be.
40:25
SPEAKER_02: Individual circumstances might be slightly different.
40:27
SPEAKER_02: And then it like is an extension potentially every,
40:29
SPEAKER_02: you know,
40:30
SPEAKER_02: 240 days,
40:31
SPEAKER_02: which is also sort of bonkers because,
40:33
SPEAKER_02: you know,
40:33
SPEAKER_02: you get one of these assignments, you,
40:35
SPEAKER_02: and if you're a good journalist,
40:37
SPEAKER_02: like you want to actually embed with your community.
40:39
SPEAKER_02: You want to be like embedded there.
40:40
SPEAKER_02: It takes a long time.
40:41
SPEAKER_02: It takes weeks to build sources.
40:43
SPEAKER_02: It takes weeks to actually figure out the lay of the land.
40:46
SPEAKER_02: If you're from a foreign country, right?
40:47
SPEAKER_02: The other thing too is like, you You might not have a president in your country.
40:51
SPEAKER_02: You might have a prime minister and a parliament.
40:53
SPEAKER_02: You might have a whole different system of government that you then have to come to
40:56
SPEAKER_02: a new country and learn.
40:57
SPEAKER_02: People are trying to be here for a long amount of time
41:00
SPEAKER_02: so they can be better reporters to actually cover the United States
41:04
SPEAKER_01: by living in
41:04
SPEAKER_01: the United States.
41:05
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, it could be a situation where we have people who just got here, got a five-year visa.
41:10
SPEAKER_02: It could be cut short.
41:11
SPEAKER_02: It could be a situation where they're about to come up for a renewal
41:14
SPEAKER_02: and they won't get one because they're trying to...
41:17
SPEAKER_02: Limit the amount of days that people can stay.
41:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's kind of dependent on the situation, but it's all bad.
41:23
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's all really bad.
41:24
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, there was nothing wrong with five years.
41:26
SPEAKER_02: There was no evidence of anyone abusing the five-year iVisa at all.
41:33
SPEAKER_00: John, what are the next steps in this lawsuit?
41:36
SPEAKER_02: So we've got a court hearing in early September.
41:39
SPEAKER_02: It's going to be up in Boston.
41:40
SPEAKER_02: We've already got a judge.
41:41
SPEAKER_02: And so in court, you know, our lawyers, and again, this is a coalition.
41:45
SPEAKER_02: So it's with NAFSA.
41:46
SPEAKER_02: It's with the President's Alliance.
41:47
SPEAKER_02: It's with the Association of Independent Colleges and Universities in Massachusetts,
41:51
SPEAKER_02: AFT, UAW, us.
41:53
SPEAKER_02: We're going to have this lawsuit listened to.
41:55
SPEAKER_02: We're going to have the preliminary injunction hearing in Boston in early September.
41:59
SPEAKER_02: And from there, we hope that we get a ruling from a judge pretty quickly.
42:04
SPEAKER_00: John, thank you so much for your time.
42:06
SPEAKER_00: And we look forward to closely following this lawsuit,
42:08
SPEAKER_00: wishing you all the very best during that injunction hearing in early September
42:12
SPEAKER_00: in Boston.
42:13
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
42:15
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
42:17
SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much, John, for joining us on the show.
42:19
SPEAKER_01: That's it for us this week.
42:20
SPEAKER_01: But next week, we have a big treat.
42:22
SPEAKER_01: Immigration attorney Robin Nice will be rejoining us to discuss the latest
42:26
SPEAKER_01: from her work on the front lines defending migrants against steep odds
42:30
SPEAKER_01: at immigration court.
42:31
SPEAKER_01: We're going to And as always, stay safe, look out for your neighbors, we'll see you next week.