Latest / I Hate Soccer with Jason Collinsworth / I Hate Soccer #105 - Allen Chapman, PRO referee for Major League Soccer

Transcript

I Hate Soccer #105 - Allen Chapman, PRO referee for Major League Soccer · I Hate Soccer with Jason Collinsworth

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Alan Chapman is a professional referee.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: He works for Pro.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: Pro uh oversees Major League Soccer, NWSL, USL Championship, USL League One, MLS Next Pro.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: And he started refing actually when he was 30 years old, and he he wishes that he started a little bit earlier because of the FIFA regulations on age and 45 and whatnot.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: We get into kind of the art of refing.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: We also discuss the importance of youth players starting refing earlier on, um, and the pathway to become an MLS referee or a FIFA referee.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: He just missed the cut uh to be a uh VMO or a VAR uh assistant referee uh for the World Cup, actually.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: And we discussed that a little bit, and we talk about the the physical demands of being in the ref and how if you're tracking distance covered on your GPS, most referees, center referees at the highest level are in the top five of the that game in terms of how much distance you covered, and it makes sense.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I heard somebody say it during the World Cup is like these refs have to be more or as fit or more fit than some of the players, and I completely agree with that.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: This opens my eyes into how to become a professional referee, and hopefully, some of you are roughing, and hopefully, you get your kids to ref.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: As always, just please like, subscribe, share this everywhere, especially with aspiring referees, and enjoy this episode with Alan Chapman.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: I hate soccer.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think that the refereeing I I don't want to call it a profession, but the art of refereeing needs to be appreciated a little bit more.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I think the pathway.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's that's definitely what I was hoping to touch on.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think because we're not all gonna be pros.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: Especially since we're at such this event, which is a pathway for the players, there's obviously the pathway for referees, so and we're not always gonna be pros.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: We're not always gonna coach at the highest level, right?
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: But we can develop and and and become referees and stay hopefully stay in the game.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, I've been around a lot of y a lot of quality young referees that were just forced out kind of because of just treatment and whatnot.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Fair.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: Go into like your background and how you got started in ref.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I played all through my youth, uh, played college division two, and then I went into the back in the late 80s, late uh early 90s.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry, late 90s, early 2000s.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm dating myself here.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um I played in Albuquerque for the Albuquerque geckos, which was the USL uh US ISL V3.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then I played a year of PDL in Arizona briefly after that, and then I played in the US ISL for the Arizona Suro's for four years.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so played at a you know relatively good level, not at the highest level.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but like most players, I think we like staying around the game.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I got into coaching.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um coached multiple teams in Arizona from junior college uh assistant to uh multiple club teams.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I've you know been around the game my whole life, basically.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then one of my buddies was starting a club in Arizona and uh was looking for referees for for his club, offered to pay for our uh registration.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I went to the clinic and it just it was an eye-opener for me.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was an eye-opener.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, okay, I've been around the game, I've played it, I've coached it.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, didn't really understand the the true uh the laws of the game.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: And just the the um just the the indisc just the subtleties that a referee has to be aware of.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um gamesmanship and stuff.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I was definitely aware of that, but just the subtleties of you know um proper restarts, all these little things that maybe you didn't think were important as a player or a coach, yeah, but are important for referees um to make sure uh the laws of the game are are applied appropriately.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: So um yeah, just started refereing a little bit, and I was like, you know what, this is something I can do to change the game that I love.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think I was I was harsh on referees when I was a player and a coach.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: I have very passionate.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then I I took you know took the clinic and I was like, you know what?
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think I need to make this uh transition um because I think I can make be more impactful on the game as a referee uh than you know, I I think I was impactful as a coach, you know, kids love me, you know.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's a lot of work coaching there for sure, you know, between managing the players, the training sessions, the games, and you throw in multiple teams, you got parents.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's uh more challenging than I would say as a referee because referee basically manage your own time, right?
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: You can pick and choose when you want to referee.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: You can block, you can say, right?
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it uh it was a transition that I took, and you know, I was just looking to help locally.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: I was not, I didn't have any aspirations to get to where I'm at now.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I was very blessed to be seen by the right people that kind of encouraged me to push myself to climb the referee ladder, um, along with the the support of the referees that I had run-ins with as a player and a coach.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh god, we know that relationship, you know, was mended, and they were one of my greatest friends and supporters.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, it's uh just flourished just really quick.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I didn't start refereeing until I was 30.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then by 36 I was in the the women's professional league.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh the hackerman back then, I can't remember the night.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: So started in 2005 as a referee.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: So okay.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: It was the early stages of the women's professional.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh maybe before that.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: I coached in the NWSL uh with the Western New York Flash.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh in 2015.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: Just do it the full one year.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: But uh yeah, I mean, yeah, that that uh you know I I should remember that, but I don't.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then the next year I was a fourth official, and then in 2000 uh in tw uh 2012 was my first uh referee opportunity in the in the MLS.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then Pro started in 2013, and we had full-time referees and part-time referees, and I was uh hired as a full-time and full-time referees?
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: The NFL doesn't have full-time referees.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: They get paid better than us, so they you know they can they can definitely they have more time to do other, you know, uh follow or have other careers because their season's obviously much shorter.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um where soccer is it's it's almost year-round.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so yeah, full-time pro starting 13.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: I was hired full-time and I've been you know with pro ever since.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: And this is my 15th year as a referee in MLS.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: How do you how did you climb through the ranked?
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because basically somebody will come out and assess you or correct.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: There are uh evaluators or assessments on certain games, and you usually have to uh let if it's the state that's monitoring those or setting, you know, um uh kind of sending out the evaluators or or assessors, you obviously have to, you know, pick the game that you would want them to assess you on.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um you need to pick?
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: Usually, yeah.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: You're like, okay, I have a good game coming up.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, can I get an evaluator assessor on this game?
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I you there's a certain number that you would need, um, so you can kind of pick.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think it was better that you started late?
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes and no.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like I w like if I would have started younger, I would think I would have had an opportunity to be a a FIFA referee.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a FIFA um VMO, which is a video match official.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: V A R.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, V A R.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's the other term.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: In FIFA, they call it VMOs.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: In uh MLS, it's VARs.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: So um my window back in the day, they the FIFA had an age uh restriction.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: We had 45.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: You once you reached 45, you came off the FIFA panel.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: You could still referee domestically, but you could no longer do international games.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I had a very small window because again, I start at 30, and then you know, by 37 I'm I'm in the uh MLS, and 45's pretty close.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: And they they like to find referees at a relatively younger age and kind of prepare them um, you know, for the international c level.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: So um when you're when you're at the like the pro level, is there I mean, okay, if you're out here, uh somebody will be an AR and then somebody will be a you know a center, right?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that doesn't happen at the pro.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: No, it doesn't.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're you're either an AR or you're uh center referee.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: But everybody kind of takes their turn being a fourth, right?
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, usually the referees uh if it would be a fourth official if you're not a referee.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, assistant referees uh generally there there were uh you know certain situations where they had to be fourths, but in general they're just uh assistant referees.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Why why 45?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: Who was the bald um French I think it was French referee, the best?
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: Oh uh Italian.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh yeah, he's in charge of FIFA uh right now is Colina.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like when Yeah, you you have those I think that's it's changed.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's changed obviously since I you know fitness levels, I think was part of maybe uh the the issue back in the day.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I I'm just speaking, like obviously the game is very fast, and they want the referees to be able to keep up with the game.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but they have since realized that you know there are referees that can meet that that expectation.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously they have the a wealth of experience which you just don't want to lose uh just because of an age.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: What are the fitness tests that you guys have to go through?
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so the fitness test is uh you have six 40-meter sprints they have to cover in uh six seconds.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you only have uh if you fell one, you have one makeup.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: If you fell the you know, two of those sprints, then you're done.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and then after the sprint uh set um set, you then have an interval.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and the interval is broken up into 75 meters uh uh run in um 15 seconds, and then you have a 25 meter uh recovery that usually is in 18 seconds, and you repeat that 40 times.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're on a track, it was it was 10 laps, you got four intervals in each each lap, and you get basically there's zones that you have to get into.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and if you're not in those zones, you know, and and you're not starting at the appropriate time, you could be you get one warning, and then the second time uh you'll you're uh told to get off the track.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: So but they're now changing that where we're gonna have to run on uh uh just this year they started running on grass or turf, and it's more of a uh instead of on the track, it's more just back and forth.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's basically where you're yeah, we're on the field, so they're that's what they're trying to back from the day.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: This episode is brought to you by the North American Soccer Expo.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: If you remember last year when I had Alexi Lawless on, so many of you were blown away and kept on messaging me how did you get Alexi Lawless to talk to you?
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: And to be honest with you, it was the North American Soccer Expo.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: The Expo has workshops and seminars and field presentations from top coaches and industry experts.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: I will be there this year.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'll be set up on podcast row.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: In addition to the podcasts that I'm going to be filming there, I'm also going to have an open hour where any coach at the expo or anybody at the expo can come sit down at the chair and have a one-on-one, 15-minute chat with me, and you guys can just come and chat and talk about whatever you want.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: North American Soccer Expo, July 30th to August 1st, Nova, Michigan.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'll see you there.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: Did they teach you guys to do the diagonal as a center?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: In general, it's always trying to keep the players uh between you and the lead assistant as plays developing.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just kind of having as as much view uh on the players, but obviously there's times now where plays in the penalty are you you can't just have all the players, you need to be there, so proximity to a potential penalty decision.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, you might leave some players out of your view, yeah, but then you have your trail assistant to who hopefully is monitoring the is behind your back.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but so because it doesn't make sense.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's so if the AR is here and the AR is here, it doesn't make sense that you're on this diadem, you're on this diadem.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I have a young very good referee.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: She was like, We're not taught that, we're not taught that.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, that's in general, that's what they prefer, but you know, the games change, it's where the game is.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: But you obviously again, you want to try to keep as many players as you can, uh not be too wide from play.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, you still want proximity to the play.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, if if there's a a major incident, you want to be close enough to deal with the situation, whether you know it's uh diffusing a uh upset players or whatever.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, the you kind of I I think as a player, former player, you kind of know where you need to be and when you need to be there.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, they have this general uh discussion, but it's it it doesn't always apply depending on the the nature of the game and uh you know where the play is at.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: So one of my mentors though taught me that is like how this is how I can tell if a referee is good enough.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: He was like what they're on the diagonal.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, learn something.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: I was like 21 and you know, yeah.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: How what well one of what are you doing here?
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: Are you you're obviously not on the field?
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh or are you on the field?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no, you do that again today.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I do.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh they asked me to do and I I want to be on the field.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: I prefer to be on the field, you know.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's just I love being on the field, whether I'm playing or a referee.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: So uh in general, the reason I came here is to mentor the referees here.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, uh just trying to help them um find areas that they can improve, um, but also um build their confidence and and uh you know let them know what they're doing well, um, you know, and hopefully making an impact on changing the way they officiate the match and how they see the match.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I one of the reasons I could got into refereeing is I thought I I felt I could put in a good shift, and that means working hard, just like I would as a player, you know.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I didn't want to be lazy, I didn't want to just walk out there.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, pushing these referees to know that the the physical demand uh is higher than players because as a player, I played generally I played on the back line, and uh, you know, maybe I'm covering if you know half two three-fourths Phil.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: As a referee, it's box to box.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you if you look at tracking players and the referee, the referee is gonna be in the top five easy if you're doing it properly.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Do you guys wear GPS or anything like that?
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: We have Apple Watches uh uh before we had Catapult that tracked us.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: Now they also have um some system in the stadiums that track all the players.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: I I like the system I can't so uh recall what it's called, but yeah, it tracks obviously speed, change, you know, distance, um, all these things that uh is important.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: This might be a dumb question, but do you does your watch does it start at zero and you go up, or do you start at 45 and go down?
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: I start from the zero and go up.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: I was just always wondering because like how do you guys track like stoppage time and whatnot?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: So this is very stop your watch.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh some do.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: Some have the ability, some watches are easy where you can just you know push a button and it tracks it, you know, for you.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm one, I look at my watch, track when we stopped, and then when we restart, it's I think it's just one of those things that a habit that I've learned to kind of uh you know just take a glance.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Just all the details that you need as a referee to kind of track that stuff.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think of like all the like the rule changes too?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like three, I think.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I had Wade Weber on from Seattle Sounders, who's the academy director.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: And he's he's older than us.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: He's he's uh six.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: And he okay, he was talking about the day where we could pass back to the keeper and pick it up, or we could throw the ball in and the keeper could pick it up.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Pick it up, right?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and obviously the six-second all, which is now the eight second roll.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I hear them counting.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: Is that that's what you guys want them to do, the rest?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like uh the last five seconds, uh the goalkeeper needs to know.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: So uh counting it out so that there's no uh issue, you know, if if a corner kick's given, right?
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because he's uh exceeded the eight seconds, you know.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: You just want to make sure that the the the goalkeeper knows where you're at in your your countdown.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: So hopefully you don't have to you know give a corner kick, but yeah, it's just I in general I I think the rules overall are good.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: There's always room for improvement, and you can see it uh almost annually there's something changed.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um so uh you know, I think what they're trying to get at is just more playing time, you know, uh uh uh less gamesmanship type of things.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then I think there's some understanding.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: I I really like the change on the dog so type situation.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Before it was uh if you were, you know, if there was a dog so inside the penalty, yeah.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh dogso being denying obstacles more in opportunity.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you would got a red card, whether it was inside or outside the penalty area.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if inside, since they're gonna get a penalty, it's a yellow card, as long as they're as long as long as they're challenging for the ball, right?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: There still could be some situations if there's a cynical hold or cynical push, right?
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: Cynical.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they're not challenging for the ball.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a very good uh uh rule change.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because then you know you get in the penalty, you're card.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're playing down a man, and then you miss a match, you know.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's kind of one of those things.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: They're the the goal scoring opportunity is restored with the penalty kick.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think it was a really good change.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: What was the rule change for this World Cup about uh the yellow cards in the quarterfinal?
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh quarterfinals?
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: Are they white cards?
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Or they're yeah, they're they're strikeout earlier.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I'm not I can't say that's just specifically at what point.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but most tournaments do this.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: At some point, they're like, okay, let's there's a number of yellow cards.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: If you exceed that, you miss a game.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: Up to a certain point, and then we reset it.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, I think it's just hopefully you want the best players on the field, you know, at the the biggest moments of a tournament.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: You want it uh you want just for the entertainment value, but also um I think you know, players, fans, they want to see the best players out there on the field, you know.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: So how do you how do you get referees to have their presence on the field but making sure that it's not we've all seen games where it's like okay, this referee is a little bit uh over the top over the top, and making it a little bit about left.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: How do you make sure that they Have this confidence and presence, but the game is for sort of one up.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, personalities are different for everyone.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to hopefully uh I there I'm I'm sure their experiences in previous games kind of led them to that point where they've kind of had this attitude, um, where you know they're stronger than they actually need to be.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you know, to be fair, coach there's coaches' fans and players that kind of bring that to the game.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so um hopefully we try to teach these the referees to to develop relationships, right?
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: Be strong, but be firm, but be respectful and professional, right?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: There's ways of dealing with upset coaches and fan, uh fans, spectators, uh, and players.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, if if you don't have to go over the top with, you know, your reaction to things, you know, if that's why we have yellow cards, red cards.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like you could, if it comes to that point, use the tools that you have.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: And there's many tools that we try to teach, the whistle being one, how you use your whistle for certain situations, uh, how you calm the game down if the game's escalated, if that means taking some time to let the players breathe, the spectators like take some air out of the game.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, talking to players, using the captains to, you know, hopefully get them to buy into, you know, helping you with players, uh, you know, talking to coaches in a professional manner to hopefully help with spectators, right?
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: If they're in charge of of their own uh spectators, um, you know, they're not gonna always agree with your decisions.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you have to understand that.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you also have these tools to that that you can use uh to hopefully continue the match so the players can play, because uh ultimately we're there for the players to play and develop.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but also keep control.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: We always talk about you know control of the match.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you're losing control, you need to do something to kind of bring it back uh under control.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: So is that usually done best with cards?
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's the that's the you know, the definitely the easier way, you know.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: Cards of you know, we definitely want a referee that has some feel for the game and can manage players and like you said, relationships, talking uh in a professional, but obviously if they don't want to work with you, then yeah, ultimately use the tools that you have, the yellow, red card, whatever it needs to be.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you know, I think taking time uh to kind of assess what's the best, what's the best pathway, what's my best option in this moment.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that comes with with repetition, it comes with practice.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: And just like the players out here are are making mistakes and and learning from their mistakes, referees are the same.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're observ they're observing not only their own gains and learning from them, but they're observing other referees as well.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: And hopefully they can take uh you know one or two things from each other and implement it into their matches.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: Do you ever feel it slipping away?
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: And like, oh, I need to I need to I need to reel this in.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, for sure.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it's uh like I said, through experience, you're like, okay, say can you stop play for a hard challenge or something?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a big reaction.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh depending on the score of the game, you know, who's got the restart, like who committed the offense, you know.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, okay, the team that is is winning, right, committed offense.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I don't want to delay this the restart too much, but maybe the team that was losing commits an offense, and now we have this reaction.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, you're the one that caused this stoppage in this situation.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna take some time just to let error, you know, everyone kind of settle down.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: And they're gonna obviously say, hey, get the restart.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna be like, hey, if you guys want to play, we can play.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're gonna continue to behave like this, right, then I'm gonna make sure that I do what's needed for this match.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: You all hear about like, you know, the 10,000 hour rule and whatnot.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I feel to gain confidence in just your craft of anything, you have to get a lot of games out.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: And hopefully high level.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like obviously, you know, we we want to service the game at any level.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I I some point once my career's done, you're gonna find me on a field, you know, uh a U12, U30, you know, something small size, because I I love it so much.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it brings me joy to see kids enjoying the the the game that I love.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: So um, but yes, high-level match, high speed matches where you are really mentally and physically uh challenged, challenged because that's that's where you you are going to improve.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you're not gonna always improve on those the games where you know everyone's okay and they're playing and not a lot of stoppages, but the ones where you have high speed, high challenges, you know, uh uh more pressure, yeah, you know, is ultimately going to hopefully help you improve a little bit quicker.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: What so when you're assessing out here, are you looking to like like promote anybody?
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm looking for for the referees that are gonna replace me, you know.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, there's just I think like coaches evaluating, you see a player, you're like, he's got it, she's got it, you know, whatever it may be.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's we all have this this aura around us, and and obviously we want the decisions to be correct and everything, but the way you present yourself goes a long way.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: The work rate you put in goes a long way.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, there's always obviously we all have room for improvement.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, yep, we're looking for the the next next one.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: So that's uh you never know who's watching.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: At FEST, they were from all over.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um were you at FEST in Arizona in December?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: I was not.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they were obviously from all over, and then on the pro power uh pro player pathway, it was all female crews, okay, which is pretty cool.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: I thought that was you know unique.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh is that how this is?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: They're uh they're flown in from all over the country right now.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: They they are all from all over the country.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they have actually uh paid their own way to come here.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: Oh uh they obviously get paid game fees to hopefully cover their expenses.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: So that that's a commitment, yeah.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh for sure, to see those that have come out here um on their own dying, you know.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um it shows how much you really care about the game, but also hopefully pushing yourself to the next level.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: How do you get here?
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like how how you have to uh go to other tournaments, uh, but also be seen locally um at some of the just uh local games, yeah, right, and get get uh pushed by whether it's the the uh local assigner or the states.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: The states really monitor referees uh throughout each state.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so you have uh committee that will like you know kind of rank where where referees are at and say, okay, well, this we need to uh have this referee go to this tournament.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like let's push him or her to get seen at this tournament, and then hopefully those uh the staff members at that tournament were like, okay, yeah, we like what we see, let's invite them to the next one, and so on and so forth.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: Can you talk about the levels of is this still by level?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so used back back when I was coming through the ranks, it was we had a grade.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, grade.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and it was grade eight and all the way up to grade one, which was a FIFA referee.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh now it's grassroots, uh regional and national, and then you have FIFA.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a little different.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody here are they regional?
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: Regional, at least, but you do have some some national.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you have some uh yes.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, I've seen uh a couple nationals.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a national, technically, uh, because I'm not a FIFA referee.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a national referee, FIFA uh VMO or VAR.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: So um you could at a national level, you should probably already be doing some level of professional.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: Some level of professional?
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: So regional, you'll have majority here are regional.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um there might be one or two local uh uh grassroots uh grassroots referees that are kind of helping out.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: So regional would be the ECNL, the MLS Net college.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's a totally totally separate, yeah, totally separate.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: You have US soccer, which oversees youth and amateur and professional which is obviously obviously overseen by FIFA, but US soccer, college is separate, totally separate, and so is high school, totally separate.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: So you got like three different uh organizations if you want to look at it that way.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: Did you ever do high spur?
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't like in Arizona.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: What's the hardest level?
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: No, look, it MLS the players, the the tech like if you want to look at like obviously it's for me, it can be a little bit easier at the top level because the the skill level, right?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: The kind of the the the understanding of the game is a little bit different.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you have the further you come down, you obviously have core touches, you have poor technical ability, and so that creates creates more decisions.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they some players are just gonna run through a wall no matter what.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: They they haven't learned the lesson of when to get into tackle and when not to, and uh hopefully you know that's gonna take time, just like referees.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: So and then when was the last time you did beef youth?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like younger than beef fall.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: I ever?
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's been uh it's been years.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: I just put it that way.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: I can't can't remember.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: I know back when my daughter was probably U14, I I jumped in uh barefoot because I was just there as a spectrum and they needed a referee.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I enjoy refereeing barefoot.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: At some point, I might get at a U-12 level and I forget my shoes and run around on the grass.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I love it.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean I think again refs get a bad rap.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: And when I'm I've been walking around the fields, and you know, sometimes there's a challenge or whatnot, but for the most part, when you're at an event like this with the level uh it is, the parents aren't too crazy, they aren't too vulgar.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas if you go out to a U9 game down the road, that might be easy to say.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: These parents have been around the game long enough, right?
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's kind of helped them educate themselves not only about the game, but on behavior too.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like uh, and I think there are some states and organizations done a really good job on uh dealing with you know fan behavior.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um they under I hope they understand that just like their their players, the uh the referees are also trying to develop.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: So um, yes, at the younger level, I think you have less experienced parents that don't understand the game and just think that you know poor Johnny fell down and that should be a foul, you know.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know, there are some physical contact situations where you know players are gonna go down and you're not gonna have a foul.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's I hopefully, you know, we're s in and and uh looking back at football, soccer, US is still relatively young when it comes to understanding the game.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: And we're such a big country and we have multiple sports that people see and watch.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, whereas in other parts of the world, you know, they they they have a better appreciation for the game and uh understanding as well.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: So you've never c you're never reft in other countries, have you?
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh no, just just uh VAR VMO situations.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: I've been across I've been other countries.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: Are you doing names here for the World Cup?
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't get selected, no.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: How does that work?
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: How does the uh selection uh there's a process, like I said, like back they kind of try to prep uh the officials over time at other tournaments, like maybe less important tournaments, I wouldn't say less important, but young, younger tournaments like U-20s, U70s, and they just kind of develop them, keep an eye on them, watch them in their domestic league.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so yeah, they it's a long process for those uh referees to get selected, and FIFA keeps uh a close eye on those individuals that that are potential candidates for the World Cup.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: How okay, Rise.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: What exactly is Rise officious?
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because I've like whoever runs the Instagram account, I always like we always message back and forth.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I but can you go into that at all?
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: I briefly I don't know a whole lot.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: This is my first because I'm always on the road with MLS, like this is my first uh opportunity to be out and and and mentor for them.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but obviously you need an organization to uh handle MLS Next, and they thought to start Rise to also, you know, not only work with MLS Next to uh provide referees, yeah, but also to develop referees uh uh alongside with the MLS Next players.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: Are you doing any education here, like any courses or anything like that?
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because there are there's a lot of instruction, like daily instruction that they have at the referee tent, um, led by some of highly qualified uh uh US soccer officials um that are definitely here to help the referees.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: How much is video important?
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's players.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: So important.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you're not watching your matches and learning from them.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: You want to watch your own matches back?
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: 100%, 100%.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like you that like I said, there's always room for improvement.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: Even though you come off a game and no one's complaining and everything you feel like went well, if you're not critiquing yourself, uh then you're not really concerned about improving.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think do you know if these refs get the VO access to the game footage so that they can watch it?
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: They do that.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, they do.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: And even at the ref tent, they can pick a clip like uh observers or themselves.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: The referees can pick clips that they want to be shown at the tent, and they can like look at them with other referees as well.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a nice little tool that they have where you know they can bring it back to the tent and not just watch it themselves, but others can learn from that situation, right?
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: And like, do you ever get feedback?
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what do you think of how I handle this?
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I I hate sometimes we look at clips, and you're uh there's a lot of gray in the game of of soccer or football, right?
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: And you don't understand the whole context of the everything going on, so it's important to kind of understand potentially the context of the match and why a referee decided what option he decided in that moment based on everything.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, some things are black and white, but it there are a lot of gray.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, we we talked through that.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: We talked through okay, where was your game at?
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: Did the did the game need it?
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: Did the player need it?
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, these are things that we discuss in uh important refereeing world as far as you know coming out with the best decision for that moment.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: I noticed, okay, so I was at a high school game in in Michigan.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Facebook.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: And the rest have their headsets.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'm I notice here nobody has headsets.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: You have a few.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: There's yeah, there are a few.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that's dictated by who the head is or so.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: You have some academies here too.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so kind of smaller groups that are invited.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about some, you know, getting invited just for that specific uh group to kind of work together.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: And usually they're at a higher level.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're they're kind of potential national, or you know, they're they're on the cusp of being to the next level and referee.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, with that, you have obviously communication.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: When you get to the professional level, you're you should be using communication, right?
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: You can't always hear right because of the fans or what not, and you have to, yeah.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: So another tool is uh, you know, hopefully get decisions correct.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but yes, there's a lot here that are still not using that, and there's obviously good practice and mechanical practices to uh communicate, yeah, uh nonverbal communication, good eye contact, subtlety, you know, you know, the AR is using their flags, uh so on and so forth.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's there's mechanics in the there to officiate a game without a communication device.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: So how hard is it to work with a crew that you've never worked with before?
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like it can be challenging, you know, you don't know their you know, being out here, like I worked with some young, like, you know.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: Usually at an MLS game, we get there two hours early, but we've also done our homework on the teams, you know.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: We we've watched matches, and so we're kind of prepped already.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then there's like talking about how we're gonna handle certain situations, the communication we want, uh you know, reminding them of where you want them to be looking when you know I'm watching the ball, like off-the-ball situations, not just ball watching.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: This is a very important.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, just communication, how to handle certain situations, like say set piece if there's a free kick.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, if I delegate the wall, the wall for you, and I've positioned myself and gone to monitor the wall because the wall is maybe outside the penalty area, and it's in a situation where I want to get to the drop zone of the cross.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm not gonna watch the wall, but I can delegate it to one of my crew, and I'm like, okay, they have now encroachment to honor, maybe handball.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and so if the ball goes off the wall, and you know, how are you gonna communicate to me uh the offense?
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, if it's a flag up, you know, or uh if we have palms obviously communicating the situation to me.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: So there's uh there's a lot of uh discussion about handling specific situations and make sure we're ready for the match and be prepared for anything.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's what they always say.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't see a lot of spray here either for the 10 yards.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm sure that is that is that just a personal preference and stuff like that?
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: Or is it uh cost?
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's not me.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like MLS, we we yeah, the company provides it for us, so we use it.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but here uh they you know obviously they're paying for a lot of equipment and stuff themselves.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: So if they wanted to go purchase a spray, they could, but you know, that's money out of their pocket.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: So you said that you get to the NLS games two hours or what's your warm-up like?
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um mine's about 25 minutes long.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's just uh over time you kind of know your body, you understand what uh not only the the getting the the muscles moving, but also the stretching that's involved to make sure that I'm personally ready to go uh once a whistle blows.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's it's mental too.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: You're not only out there warming up, but you're just you're kind of taking in the teams, their warm-up, getting mentally prepared, just reminding yourself of you know uh processes, uh, and hopefully being prepared for anything.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: So thanks for doing this.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're welcome.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: I hope uh it was helpful and hopefully, you know, I I I like to talk to players, and I know they they have these goals or aspirations of players, but uh I I really think if we can start to get more players into the referee world, I think we'll we'll have we'll I think change the game in a in a better manner.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: Not not saying that you don't have to be a former player to to be a referee.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of great non-players that have reached the World Cup.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're then play at a high level.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: But I think players and even coaches, you have an understanding of the match, understanding of the players, the tactics, and all this, and it it it helps uh you know, manage games and manage players.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: So uh if there's any players out there listening, like for me, you should seriously consider like go as far as you can as a player.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: Take it as far as but you know what?
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: Even uh uh studying the laws of the game is gonna help you be a better player, better coach, right?
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: The way you interact with a referee, if you are uh are speaking in their language, you know, the referee is gonna be like, all right, this guy knows what he's talking about, or this she or she knows what she's talking about.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: So uh study, study, study, you know, go as far as you can if it's college, professional, uh, you know, and then get into the game.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I know people like to give in ref to coaching, but referee is an once I got into it, it's almost similar to playing because we're always competing, yeah, right?
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: We're competing to be on the best match at the highest level.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, right?
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: We want to be uh the best ref out there.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: And but you also have this camaraderie where you're hanging out with referees just like you would as a player and your team.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's the social part of refereeing that you know that people don't, they just see the dark side.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: But you get to hang out with referees, you have a good time, hopefully come up through the ranks with other referees, which I did, you know, we kind of climb the ranks together.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then you're competing, and there's that competition to be better and be better than the next guy, and that way you get selected, you know, to be on the final of this this tournament or the next tournament.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so yeah, I I think uh, you know, I would encourage players, coaches to seriously consider it uh because it's I uh never thought it would be where I I am at.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I've traveled the world, you know, and I've traveled the country, and it's a great gig.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's a great job.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's all there's pressure, there's don't give me there's down days, there's up, there's great days, but uh just like players and coaches.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: So um yeah.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: Seriously consider it because we need you, we need them to get stay in the game and stay in the game.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, stay in the game.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, there's like I said, there's days where I'm wishing, like, uh, I can't sleep tonight.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's just but then there's great days, so it's worth it.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I appreciate you having me on, and hopefully we'll see each other down the road.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: All right, great.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: I got a funny story.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: I hate soccer.