Latest / Cait & Court's Cozy Corner: Romance Readers / Let's Talk About: The Shippers with author Katherine Center
Transcript
- Caitlin Stryker: Hi. Welcome back to Cait and Court's Cozy Corner. We have a very special guest with us today. We have Katherine ⁓ author of many romance books. We are talking about her latest today, The Shippers. ⁓ Katherine, say hi. ⁓ Executive producers and hosts, Caitlin Stryker and Courtney Richter, producers, Canasia Ngo and Hollie Lobosky Original music, Cassie De Silva. This is a podcast for lovers of romance and romantasy novels who want to go on a deep dive into their favorite genre. Honest discussions and salacious details giving romance books the respect they deserve. We are two friends, actors, moms and romance readers who like a bit of spice and everything nice in their books. You know the drill. Be sure to like and subscribe wherever you listen to our podcast. You know the drill. Be sure to like and subscribe wherever you listen to our podcast. Courtney Richter: Welcome Katherine. We're so happy to have you and we are going to be talking about The Shippers. But before we go into it, Katherine is going to give us a synopsis and we'll jump in. I have to say your author's note into The Shippers. I read that and I was like, knew there was something about this one. I've always loved you. I've read all your books. And what we tend to do is like I've always read all of them. And then Cait kind of like jumps in on a one off. So we get two perspectives. of Katherine Center: Thank you, thank you, thank you. It's so fun. Courtney: Thanks for tuning in to Cait and Court's Cozy Corner Romance Readers. Caitlin Stryker: Ugh. Hi, I'm Cait Courtney Richter: reading but I hadn't read your author I don't know if I hadn't read your author's note before or just wasn't in this level but something about it just like ⁓ this woman sees me I just felt so seen and then and I was like yes and it's the whole reason we started this podcast is exactly like what your author's note said about just what writing romance but reading romance reading about love the gift that that is and the joy and how you feel what the characters are feeling and what that can do for you that Katherine Center: Yeah. Courtney: And I'm Court. Welcome to Cait and Court's Cozy Corner Romance Readers. Caitlin Stryker: Yes. Yeah. Hmm. Courtney: As we like to say, you don't need spice for a book to be good. Well, you don't need running shoes to run, but they sure do help. Courtney Richter: It was just so eloquently written and it just, I just feel like it was like the perfect synopsis of what it is to be a romance reader. And I just loved it so much. So aside from the book, just thank you. The author's note alone was just wonderful. Caitlin Stryker: Yes. The author's notes everything. Yeah. Katherine Center: ⁓ The first time I ever did an author's note was when I wrote The Bodyguard. And The Bodyguard was sort of my first book that I did that was like a true romantic comedy. know, before that, it had been a little bit more kind of literary, a little bit... Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Katherine Center: like slightly darker, like the ratio between darkness to light was a little heavier and still funny, still goofy, still all the sort of normal Katherine Center things, but just in terms of like the hardships and the struggling, I leaned a little bit more on the hardships and was technically women's fiction with strong romantic elements would be, I guess, not so catchy. ⁓ Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Okay. No! Katherine Center: But the pandemic came, you know? And when I was writing, I wrote The Bodyguard during the pandemic. And as I was kind of thinking about what were going to be the sort of big elements of the story and, you know, what was I going to sort of focus on and what was going to be my ratio of things, you know, I had this moment where I was like, aren't we all suffering enough? Like, do I need put any suffering in this book? Like, do I need to? And I just thought, you know, for this book, I'm just going to lean into the light. Caitlin Stryker: Mmm. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Katherine Center: I mean, there's still a little bit, because I like some stakes. You I don't like my stories too cotton candy Yeah, I always want there to be growth and change and people have to kind of overcome some stuff. So there is some, but it's less. The ratio shifted significantly. And I felt like I needed to explain myself or something when The Bodyguard started to come out. I wanted everybody to be like, all right, this is a little different and here are the reasons and it's the ⁓ But then I loved writing that note for The Bodyguard so much. Like it was Courtney Richter: You need steaks, there's something. Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Katherine Center: satisfying and nourishing for me to kind of just kind of articulate my life philosophy about why love stories have cultural value and why what I'm doing is, you know, my gift to you in the best way that I know how to give something. So ever since then, every book that's come out since then, and that was 2022, has, I've put in an author's note. Like at this point, it's just kind of expected. It's just a thing that we're doing. And I love it because every single time I kind of Courtney Richter: Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Yes. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yes. Mm-hmm. Katherine Center: try to focus on some, I mean, I still have a general philosophy, but I try to focus in on some aspect of love stories and why like that makes them great. And so I kind of focus a little bit for each note. And this one is a little different because we put it in The Shippers, we put it right at the beginning. ⁓ yes. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Yes. Courtney Richter: Yes, which is why it popped so much to me when reading this time. Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm Katherine Center: They've always been at the end before. And I think a lot of people get to the end of the story and then they just move on and they're done and they never see the author's note. So we were like, let's try and get people to see it this time. So. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: You know, it's so funny. My whole life, have always read all the way, like the author's note about the author. I've always like wanted to know more, you know, I'm just so fascinated and I like, ⁓ I love ⁓ I love reading, I love writing myself and I was like, I want to know more, I want to know more. And one was so funny because it's at the beginning, Katherine, and you said, now listen, there's no real spoilers, but I love a spoiler. My sister hates a spoiler. Katherine Center: Yep. Yep. Me too. Courtney Richter: Yes. Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: I'm like your sister. I'm like, no spoilers, I don't want any spoilers. And so I was like, okay, I'm going to come back to this when I finish the book. And that's what I did. Courtney Richter: Yeah. Katherine Center: ⁓ good! ⁓ good! I'm glad you were able to like adjust your experience in that way. Caitlin Stryker: Yes, and that's what I did. And then I got went back to it and I read it and I was like, I had chills. I was so filled with gratitude that you took the time to really eloquently write like so much of why we even started this podcast. You know, I am a relatively new I mean, we've been doing this for a minute now, but I'm relatively new romance reader. Court's been reading romance for years and was like, you got to read these, you got to read these. And I was like, Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: no that's like the silly section you know and just kind of like whatever and then I started reading them as like these are amazing I love these these make me feel great about myself why did the world make me think this was the silly section wait a minute wait a minute is it because this makes women feel good is this because there's a lot of women who write these books is this I know what this is right Courtney Richter: You Katherine Center: Yes, yes, all of it. There's a whole PhD level seminar that we could do on the feminism of hating love stories. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Yes, yes. ⁓ Courtney Richter: Well, and it's, it's not a coincidence. Even for me, I got really into romance and women's fiction and reading all of it after I had my first baby when I like mentally similar to like, when everyone was going through with COVID, like, I needed that mental lift, I needed something that may feel good with all the chaos that was going through being a new mom and the tiredness and I just needed that escape. And I found it in these books. And I never looked back like people ask me now about reading my Katherine Center: Yeah, yeah. Courtney Richter: used to read all kinds of things. And then I spread romance and I'm like, why would I bother? I don't need to feel anyone else's pain or problems. I can just go through this fun ride and get my happy ending at the end and like feel great. And that's all I need to do. Caitlin Stryker: you Katherine Center: Yeah, same for me. mean, to having kids shifted what I was willing to read when I was younger, I would read anything. I was like, is everyone going to be murdered at the end? That's okay. Like I'll jump in. Why not? And now, and then I had kids and I think raising kids is such a, an inherently hopeful thing to do. Like you, you, you really got to harness that hope and like hang onto it for dear life to be raising kids. And, and I just, Courtney Richter: Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Hahaha! Mm-hmm, it is. It's very optimistic. Yup. You do. Courtney Richter: Yes. Katherine Center: That's what I wanted in the stories I was reading. wanted hopeful, encouraging, know, nourishing stories about people kind of becoming their best selves, right? And I shifted gears and I have never looked back either. And the pandemic also did that to me even more. Like, hopeful stories was what I wanted once I shifted to kids. And then... ⁓ Caitlin Stryker: Thank you. Courtney Richter: Yeah! Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Katherine Center: And then really the pandemic, I was like, if it doesn't have a happy ending and it's not a love story, I don't want to read it. And I will like, I'll Google in advance, you know. Courtney Richter: Yeah. Well, we're thankful you did shift because now we get the gift that is your books, which I mean this one. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah, yeah, it's funny. Yes. Yeah. ⁓ my gosh. And so this is my first one of yours that I have read and I will tell you now, I am going in for more. ⁓ I really, really loved it. ⁓ yeah, I just, I started and it was like, was like, couldn't put it down. It was just so much fun. And, there were stakes and things were happening and I was like, okay, I'm nervous. And I know it started and she said things were going to be fine, but like, Courtney Richter: Yes. Thank Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: What are we going to be going through here? Katherine Center: Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, and that's part of your job too. If you write romance or rom-coms, which are kind of the same thing, but maybe a little different, you do have that guaranteed, constitutionally guaranteed happily ever after that's gonna happen at the end. That's the genre, right? That's the genre. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: Yeah. Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Katherine Center: And so you know that your readers know going in. Now, there are lots of readers who aren't necessarily romance readers who come and read my book, who don't know. You know, they read a lot of literary fiction. Anything could happen at the end. So, you know, there are many kinds of readers, but romance readers, they know what's coming. They know it's going to be okay. And then part of my job is even though you know, we're all going to have a happily ever after. Caitlin Stryker: you Yeah. ⁓ Courtney Richter: Yes. We have to go for a ride. Katherine Center: You gotta make them wonder how that's ever gonna manage to happen, right? How's it gonna happen? And also to worry a little bit, but not too much. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Yeah. Courtney Richter: Yes. Mm-hmm. Katherine Center: about whether or not really will happen. ⁓ And you know, I'm a, I have a very low tolerance for ⁓ stress and worry in stories. ⁓ I just think about those ratios a lot when I'm writing, like too much stress and I shut down. I'm like, ⁓ my God, they're all gonna die. I can't take it. ⁓ Whereas, you know, just the right amount, just the sweet spot. If there's not enough stress, I'm bored. You know, so I need that like Venn diagram sweet spot of like, Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. You Yes. Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah, yes, yes, totally. you do, yeah, it's tricky. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Katherine Center: just enough concern, but not so much that I, you know, give up and go to a very dark. Courtney Richter: Yeah, I think you thought I think you sit in that place very well from reading this one we're gonna talk, The Shippers, and your previous books and honestly, we need to go into it but I didn't know after ⁓ The Love Haters and has Huxley Huxley Huxley was his name your male Hutch Hutch Thank you. I was like, I know it's an H and a slightly ⁓ H name. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Katherine Center: Hush! Hush! Courtney Richter: I was like, I'm not gonna love this one as much. Like I loved Hutch. really like, he was my summer boyfriend last year. I was like, oh, I just wanted to find movies about like Coast Guards, like, why isn't there more Coast Guard stories? Like I just, it like, whet the appetite. I'm like, I need more. Where are they? There's like one Ashton Kutcher movie or something. There's like nothing. Katherine Center: I know, same. I know, same. My husband. Caitlin Stryker: Right? Well, and then all Coast Guard stories are like, like sad and scary, actually, the ones that are out there. Courtney Richter: ⁓ and then you read hot you're like we need we need more we need more. so I was like that Yes Katherine Center: My husband knows that I like to write ⁓ stories about this thing called moral elevation, which is like the idea that like seeing other people do good things in the world kind of lifts us up and kind of inspires us and makes us want to do more good things in the world, like in the same way that like misery is contagious, like Caitlin Stryker: Hmm. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Katherine Center: altruism and heroism can be contagious. So I'm always kind of, and I love that idea. I'm totally fascinated by that idea. And I think about it a lot and I'm sort of thinking about what to write. And my husband knows that I'm always kind of looking for things that are sort of inspiring in that way. And when I was before with The Love Haters he was like, you know, if you really want to write about moral elevation, you should think about writing about the Coast Guard. And I knew. Caitlin Stryker: I love that idea. Katherine Center: zero about the Coast Guard at that moment in time. And I was like, ⁓ right. Yeah, like the guys who guard the coast, you know, I didn't know. And, ⁓ and so he was like, I will send you some videos. And then he, he sweet, sweet man, he got on YouTube and he found like these training videos of like these sort of young, very fit sort of dudes like doing lots of pushups and pull ups and you know, swimming things. Courtney Richter: Yeah. You Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Hmm. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yes. Katherine Center: And he sent them all to me and I very dutifully watched them and I was like, yes, this can work. This can definitely work. I had to. It was research. had to. Courtney Richter: I mean, you had to, it was your job. You had to watch them. Like, what are you gonna do? Yeah, yeah. Caitlin Stryker: And you were like, I found the, I found the, the, the coastal, like they're firefighters, but on the water. ⁓ Courtney Richter: and even more, even more elite. Katherine Center: Yeah, exactly. You know what, actually, my husband is a volunteer firefighter and he loves firefighters and everything about firefighter culture and he feels like the Coast Guard is like the firefighters of the military because they're there to help, you know, they're just there to help people. So and I did actually go and do research at the Coast Guard for that book and I got to fly in a helicopter and I got to meet all these rescue swimmers then some of them came to the launch event for The Love Haters and Caitlin Stryker: ⁓ my gosh! Amazing. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah, that's amazing. Courtney Richter: Wow! Yeah? Caitlin Stryker: Amazing! Katherine Center: ⁓ That was really terrifying. had a lot of, I had a lot of how hot is the Coast Guard based comedy in the talk that I was doing for book tour. ⁓ And then there they all were in the front row and I was just mortified. I was just bright red the whole time, like making all these jokes about how sexy they were. Caitlin Stryker: you And then they're there. Courtney Richter: Look, you are welcome. I have now made you the fantasy of women everywhere. No. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Katherine Center: I don't think they minded too much. ⁓ And you know, they brought their wives and their girlfriends and I don't think they minded either. I think we were all good, but I was just at the time, I was like, ⁓ my God. Courtney Richter: Well, I think you did a service for them because I definitely felt it and when reading it and I was just, yeah, it definitely, I may have looked up those YouTube videos too, just to make sure you were accurate. you know, that was amazing. And I have to say you did, we'll jump into Shippers You did match that with Cooper. I was like wary. I'm like, oh, that was such a part of my heart. like, how am going to jump into another one? And off the bat, like right away, was just like team Cooper. Caitlin Stryker: I love that. Katherine Center: That's fair. That's fair. Caitlin Stryker: I love that. So hot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. On that note, Katherine, can you give us ⁓ the synopsis of The Shippers and then we'll dive in on that. Courtney Richter: Like just like in it and I'm like, this is amazing. It's like, ⁓ just like good bro. Katherine Center: Me too. Me too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the short little log line of The Shippers is she wants him to help her woo someone else. Brilliant. Can't go wrong. Right? Like that's the, that's kind of the line. And the longer version of that is just. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Katherine Center: um JoJo, who's the main ⁓ character, her sister's getting married on a cruise ship and she has to go and be the maid of honor and um she finds out that her childhood crush and first kiss from their neighborhood growing up is gonna be at the wedding newly divorced and she and her sister hatch this plan that ⁓ JoJo, who is bad at love, can solve all of her problems by, you know, seducing this childhood crush of hers who never gave her the time of day. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Katherine Center: And so on the ship, JoJo gets quite tunnel visioned on that project and she in her childhood best friend, Cooper Watts, to be her wingman while she's trying to get this other guy. ⁓ ⁓ he helps, you there are shenanigans. ⁓ They wind up having to share a cabin. She kind of puts herself in like ridiculous ⁓ scrape scrape. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. You Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Katherine Center: ⁓ And Cooper is constantly in the most gentleman-like way, rescuing her and helping her out and just being a total sweetheart. And that's kind of the story. And I won't go any further because no spoilers, but are we gonna talk about this? So they do. Courtney Richter: Yes. We'll take it. I'll take it. No, go. Oh, we'll do spoilers. We're gonna go to spoilers. Read the book. If you have not read it, go read it now. Come back and join us, because we're gonna dive in with Katherine, because there are so many things we need to talk about. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah, ⁓ We're doing spoilers. Yeah. Katherine Center: I mean, for me, honestly, it's not even a spoiler to say that JoJo and Cooper wind up falling in love with each other instead, right? ⁓ Because for me, that's just something to look forward to. That's just the fun of the, like the fun premise of the story. And for me, I don't need to be surprised by that. I want to have that waiting for me at the end and just look forward the whole way through to how we get there, you know, from the beginning. And so. Caitlin Stryker: so many things. Courtney Richter: No. course. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Yes. Yeah. Courtney Richter: Yes. Which you do that in such a fun way because I have to say like obviously there's a slight formula to romance as we know there's usually a moment of like they get together certain writers and then you know they're gonna fall apart everything falls apart and then they get back together at end of the third act. But Caitlin Stryker: Yes, do enjoy the ride. Katherine Center: Right. Courtney Richter: Yours is more of just a slow burn towards the getting together finished and then like slight little thing and then like you don't have to go through you're not halfway through the book and like well now they're already together and happy and they're gonna then it's gonna fall apart you just get to like have a ride with them in a way that a friendship does which feels true to like the best friends that they are ⁓ that I, I really loved and found so enjoyable about this book is that it was just almost like Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Katherine Center: Yeah, I mean... Courtney Richter: real time, like it just, you just got there with them and like lived through it as opposed to like this long time, span of time. Cause I guess it's on a cruise ship, so it's a short amount of time. So everything was happening in a short amount of time. Katherine Center: Yeah, I think it's like an eight day cruise. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Yeah. Courtney Richter: Yeah, which is so fun. so also Katherine has left out. Look, the book starts with Joey. I have to say, I love that Cooper calls her Joey. Yes. And Cooper calls her Joey, which the Dawson's Creek heart of mine just like loves. Like just Joey. I'm like, ⁓ the best friend of Joey. it just had to, it was a nice touch. ⁓ and basically Joey's about to get married to Pierce, who's the wrong guy for every reason, but just. Caitlin Stryker: was just gonna say the opening. We gotta, we gotta talk about the opening. Same! I did the... Yup. Courtney Richter: kept saying yes and now here they are about to get married and Cooper shows up like a caveman with a beard and long hair and a rucksack and basically tells her to faint when she gets the javelin because he's there. She faints and calls off the wedding which is a huge start and pulls you into this book so fast. So Caitlin Stryker: It is such a great start. Yes. Katherine Center: Yes. Courtney Richter: And even him carrying her and she thinks it's Pierce and like maybe he is this guy and like those are the things your brain does when you're dating the wrong guy like you have these moments like oh this is okay and I mean I stay in a relationship once way too long because was so he was a nice it wasn't Pierce he was a really nice guy but it wasn't ever butterflies it was that like I love you I'm not in love with you situation and it can be easy just convince yourself like this is okay we can that's fine and Caitlin Stryker: Yeah, you're trying to. Katherine Center: Ha ha! Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: The fact that it takes Pierce who had disappeared four years earlier, coinciding with when she got engaged and ghosted her shows back up and is like, Nope, this shouldn't happen. And like, steals her away. It was just the best. like, I am happily married and a happy I love my husband. I married my best friend. And I didn't have that best friend person growing up. But this makes me want it. And I'm like, why? Everything worked out. But I still like makes me want that childhood best friend friends to lovers story. Katherine Center: Yeah, you know, I will say I've never done a childhood friends to lovers kind of arc before. This is my first time to ever, you know, try that. And I had no idea how much fun it was going to be. ⁓ I, you know, and I think part of what's fun about it is, I mean, this story in particular, take like starts off like at a full gallop, you know. It's a wedding. Courtney Richter: Thank Mm-hmm. Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah, it was fun. Courtney Richter: Yes, it really does. Caitlin Stryker: It really, really does. mean, it's like the wedding and especially cause I, cause I was like, didn't read the spoilers and I'm going along and I'm like, Oh wait, she's already marrying the guy. Where are we going to go with this? And then I'm like, Oh, I don't think this is the guy. And then the guy shows up. was like, Oh, there's our guy. It's Cooper. And then she faints at the altar. was Courtney Richter: Yeah. Yeah. Katherine Center: Thanks. Caitlin Stryker: So exciting because it is that kind of thing where you're like, no, she's not gonna, nobody would ever do that. Oh my God. Oh, she did it. She did it. She faked fainted at the altar. was like, it would just, really like shoots you out of a cannon, the beginning of this book. And then you're like, where are we going? Yes. Huge. Katherine Center: She did it! She did it! Yeah, mean, yeah, it weirdly does because it's very dramatic and it's a wedding day. The stakes are very high. And then here comes this dude with a rucksack like out of nowhere. then it never, I mean, it does, it never really slows down at that point. And unlike in a kind of a regular story, like one of my other stories where the people are meeting each other for the first time at the start. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. No, you just go. Caitlin Stryker: No it doesn't. Yeah. Katherine Center: And so there's kind of that sort of getting to know you kind of stuff. They're already there. They already know each other. They grew up together. And so, you know, he's got her in a headlock on the first day of the cruise, right? And so there's intimacy that's already there. And then you get to build on it and play with it, right? And like amp up the shenanigans without having that. There is a build because what we're building from is friendship into realizing that they're in love, which is a different kind of build. Caitlin Stryker: Right, of course. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Yes. Katherine Center: But it was really fun to get to start in that place. I loved it. I had so much fun. The most fun I've ever had. Caitlin Stryker: That it must have been because you yeah, yeah, because like you just said, you got to skip that sort of it not it's not ever tedious as a reader in the books that are great. But I'm sure as a writer, you can be you're like, how am I gonna and you're coming up with stuff and you're like, no, that's boring. Or you're like, ⁓ this is taking too long to get them there. Like if I make it believable. Please. Katherine Center: Right. Okay, I will answer that question because I think that's a really good question. For me, that's the whole story. And so that part is always fun too. ⁓ Like for me, honestly, and everybody's different, know, everybody's different. But as a reader for me, the part that I like is the build from whatever point they meet or come together for the story. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Katherine Center: to the moment that they realize they're in love. And you my books are PG-13, so they're not gonna go to bed. There's not gonna be any body parts. We're just gonna smooch really well, really sweetly, and we're gonna linger on it and enjoy ourselves. But ⁓ the anticipation of that moment when they realize they're in love and do something about it, that's my favorite part. And so like a lot of books, a lot of romance novels are structured differently and they have everybody like have sex at the midpoint. Courtney Richter: Yeah. Heart smudging. Caitlin Stryker: Yup. Yes. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Katherine Center: For me personally, just personal preference, that's the moment when the story's over for me. I'm like, and we're done. Okay, what's next? Because I like the anticipatory period. love, I want everything structured along that section. yeah, so ⁓ for me, those little tiny moments of like, just saw this guy in the bakery and now I've tripped in the street and he's helping me out. Like those little tiny things, that's... Caitlin Stryker: Yes! Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Katherine Center: That's the whole thing for me. That's what I love. and most of my books are about, you know, about it in a certain way where like I've never seen this person before and now this person is becoming the only thing I can see over the course of the program. But, but in this one, but yeah, but with this one, what was fun was it was just a different, a different section or a different level. were just in a different place. We were focusing on the minutia of a different place and it was just new. And so it was fun, but I also love the other stuff too. Courtney Richter: Yes, they take over your like mindset. Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah, yeah, well you do it, you can tell you love it because you do it very, very well. Because Court knows, like I am a little bit, like I've said it so many times, that sometimes I'm like, come on, let's just get there. Let's just do, you know, but I'm obviously like, I keep reading and I'm loving it I'm just getting frustrated. like, I just want like the thing. And it happens and I'm like, yay. But with one, I kept going along and I couldn't put it down. was like, ⁓ but ⁓ okay, this is fun. ⁓ okay, you know, I'm like. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. She does not like a slow burn. Yeah. Yeah. Katherine Center: Yeah. Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: the whole way along and I wasn't like, where's the, you know, because you clearly like, you love to do that part. Like, and you really enter very, very good at it. And it really pulled me all the way through. And then when things got serious for a minute there at the end, was like, you know, with that guy following her on the island, I was like, ⁓ ooh, ooh. And then I was getting pretty nervous. Courtney Richter: Yes. Ugh. Yeah. Katherine Center: Okay. Creepy, I agree. Caitlin Stryker: Where's Cooper? Courtney Richter: Yeah, he's super creepy. Katherine Center: Where is Cooper? ⁓ I think, yes, I mean what you're talking about there I think is again, it's like always, I'm always thinking in ratios. It's like a ratio thing for me. So it's like stress of not getting what you want balanced out with get little morsels of getting what you want and how do you balance those two things and if it's too much not getting what you I as a reader will be like, I'm gonna take a break. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yes. You just get frustrated. Yeah. Katherine Center: You know, but if it's too much of getting what you want, then I lose interest. So I just need that balance between like, ooh, I almost got what I wanted and then I didn't get it and now I'm frustrated, but now there's another morsel. So yeah, I just think about the ratios of that a lot to try and keep everything. Courtney Richter: Well, your ratio scale is correct. Because you listen, we love a good, smutty romance book on this show, we read them all we talk about it, we get in depth. And like I said, yours is not that yours is closed door, like it's kissing, but I don't miss it when I read your books. Like I never felt like Oh, when are they going to get there? Get that so that is a kudos to you because of how you write it. Caitlin Stryker: And even for... Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Katherine Center: I do want to jump in and say I'm not anti-spice. I'm pro-spice in fiction and in life. Go spice, love it. ⁓ But I am married to a middle school teacher and ⁓ his sixth graders and seventh graders read my books. They want to know what Mr. Center's wife is writing about. And so I started PG-13 and I'm just going to keep it that way. I'm very aware that I many, many generations of people reading my stuff. Yeah. Courtney Richter: Yes, of course. Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah Courtney Richter: Fair. Caitlin Stryker: Right. Courtney Richter: think it's great. I think that's great. I think... Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: think that's great though. And I love that. And we need those. We need those too, you know? And there are... You know, there's readers on all the layers within the genre that like different levels of spice and everybody, you know, there's something for everybody, which is so great. Like this book, I finished this book and I was like, my sister is gonna love this one. You know, like she doesn't like a lot of spice. She'll take a certain amount, but she's really not, she's like, the door can be cracked open, but that's all she's interested in. ⁓ And so there's some where I read them and I'm like, yeah, it's good, but she's not, it's gonna... Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Katherine Center: Yeah. Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: But this one I was like, oh, this is for Allie. She's gonna love this one. And you need that. There should be something for everybody along the way. And I love your reason why that your husband's a middle school teacher and that the kids are reading it. I mean... Courtney Richter: Yeah. Katherine Center: Yeah. Courtney Richter: Yes. Caitlin Stryker: From this one ⁓ too, there's so many great messages that they, at least in this one, can get about kind of really listening to yourself and knowing who you are. And JoJo is so entertaining and puts herself out there and kind of falls down and fails and just goes for it. And people sort of on the street would kind of... There were some stories where people were sort of making fun of her or not giving her the chance to grow and Cooper really shows up and is like, hey, actually she's a math genius. ⁓ Courtney Richter: Hmm. I loved it. I I love I love how Cooper lifts her up so much and and her being a teacher obviously has a space in your heart as well with your husband and her using her math and using it in art like I when I was reading what you wrote about what she did as her job like this is amazing and fantastic and I wish more teachers were doing this and even the way math is actually taught now has changed a lot from when we were kids like when I look at my kids homework I'm like Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. It makes so much more sense now. Courtney Richter: This is like four different ways. We just learned this one way. like, it's really cool. And I love that you brought it in in such a practical way that was very digestible. It's like you are also looking at the world through another lens as the reader without even being aware necessarily that you're looking at the world through another lens. And I love your ability to do that and be able to work that into these stories ⁓ and give other angles. And was so, but, and then Cooper, like I loved the blunt honesty with each other. Like I- Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Katherine Center: more things. Courtney Richter: It was so funny and their banter was so natural. And that person that you can literally say anything to and knows how to receive it is such a special relationship that we rarely, the few you get throughout your lives with your best friends, male or female. And it just, I loved that part from the get-go. There was no hesitation. was just like, you look awful. You look great. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Katherine Center: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Courtney Richter: I loved it so much. Yeah, like why are you hot now? Like what is happening? Katherine Center: Yes, I love that about them too. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Hahaha! Courtney Richter: And his like admitting to buying all the vests. I loved it so much. I bought some vests and flew here to get on the cruise. like it just... Caitlin Stryker: So good. ⁓ my gosh. You know, I also really loved, was just, were saying that and I was thinking, I loved the parents storyline in this one. I thought that was really cool, the way that that went, you know? I didn't see it going the way that it went from the beginning. Courtney Richter: Yes, that was so great too. I... Yes. Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: I was kind of more seeing like when there was the call for the divorce, I was like, well, yeah. And then when it shifted and it went around and it found the reasons why the dad was absent and all of the things were so well explained. And I also think of an era of it generationally and everything for where the parents are coming from. ⁓ Courtney Richter: Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: But it was really, really cool and the mom's experience and then the mom, was just so wonderful, like three kids, know, and the husband basically just always gone working. And you could just tell that she was like running the show and she had this wonderful life going for her and all these things and. And then when it came around to why the dad was so absent and what his fears were that drove that and his inability to kind of communicate those fears and then him working on communicating them, him getting so drunk at the bar and falling down was really funny. But that was the way it came about. I loved that secondary storyline that was in there. It was really cool. Katherine Center: That is one of my favorite things to do ⁓ when writing is to a character who ⁓ see one way at the start um and who we kind of interpret their actions in a ⁓ way at the start. And then as the story goes along, as we find more and more about what they were thinking, what they were trying to do and where they were coming from, we to see them in a very different ⁓ light. I... ⁓ Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: you Katherine Center: I ⁓ as a reader when somebody does that, shifts my perspective. But a lot times with those, it's not in the original plan. ⁓ I kind discover it as I go along and I get to know those characters better. And so like, for example, The Shippers is set on a cruise ship and ⁓ I, as 13 year old, went on a cruise with my family. I'm not a person who's done a huge amount of cruising, but ⁓ in... Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: ⁓ Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: Okay. ⁓ I've never been. I feel like I have now. Katherine Center: It was a very ⁓ memorable ⁓ family experience going on a cruise ship. ⁓ I have two sisters, so three kids. ⁓ ⁓ I actually had ⁓ first kiss on that very cruise, which is, know, added some energy to this story. And then, ⁓ and my parents were right on the verge of getting divorced while we were on Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: I Courtney Richter: love that! Katherine Center: And we didn't know that yet ⁓ as kids, but we would find out on the other side of the trip, they would sit us down and kind of explain everything. It was like they had already bought the tickets. So it was like, let's just go. And so ⁓ there was a sort of bitter sweetness to it all, ⁓ especially looking back on it now, knowing that it was kind of right before the end of all this sort of childhood that I had kind of known. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. ⁓ Courtney Richter: Right. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Katherine Center: And so when I started thinking about the story, I was thinking that the parents really were gonna be getting divorced, right? And that that was gonna be this kind of underlying kind of bittersweetness to, know, here's the new wedding with the sister and that's happy, but then there's this other sort of sadness on the other side with the parents. And I, you know, I'm always looking for that balance between sort of, you know, hopeful and kind of heartbreaking. But then the more time I spent with this family and the more time I started thinking about this dad, Courtney Richter: Right, of course. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Katherine Center: every time JoJo and her dad would get around each other, ⁓ she would want to kind of help him out. ⁓ And it wasn't really planned, but as soon as I started to see that pattern developing, I was like, that's what it should be. They should team up. Like she should help. And then ⁓ more that happened, the more I started to see him as a much more sort of sympathetic figure. And then of course, I could see it all ⁓ playing out because I was like, this is great because this is like... Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Katherine Center: the healing journey, right? She always, she was bad at love and she blamed it all on her absent father. But now in this one week, not only is she gonna find this sort of gorgeous, swoony love with Cooper, but she's also gonna like heal some stuff that she needed to kind of rethink. Because I think one of the things that's really satisfying to see in fiction is when the characters have kind of... Caitlin Stryker: Yes. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Katherine Center: incorrect assumptions about how the world works or who they need to be in the world or who they are. And then the story kind of forces them to reevaluate, right, to rethink how that all works. we don't like to rethink things. And so we do need a plot, physical plot to force us into situations where we kind of have to shift our thinking. so, you know, I'm so glad that that's how it evolves because that's like, for me, that makes it a much more three-dimensional story because Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: No, we don't. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Yes. Katherine Center: JoJo, you know, heals this stuff about her dad in all these ways that I never saw coming at the beginning. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: ⁓ that's so cool. I love hearing you talk about that. Courtney Richter: it really Yeah, it gave the heart to it like because and there was a heart and there was things with Cooper and things they overcame but you're right, it gave that depth to it so that you could keep the minutia of the Cooper and Joey relationship up here moving because you have this whole other piece that was happening with the B story with the father and the family. And I have to say one of the things that made me like laugh and almost laugh cry was at the end when she talked about in the epilogue of realizing there's this like thing called name. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: euphasia, slay that what you can't remember names and it was literally not him and the part the part that got me was that like, of course, my dad thinks it's all phoey like that part that I'm like, of course, you've literally like figured it out. was like, it's like a moment for me when I had the realization of like, my dad has anxiety, like, ⁓ his temper and his things like he's very but if you ask him like, ⁓ of course, and we never talked about growing up or going but for myself, I'm like but I know. and I can see things and be like, that's why he was like this as a kid. And so like, that's enough. Katherine Center: think that's a perfect example, right? Like that's the example of the journey that they go on with the dad, because at the beginning, she tells you that he can't remember any of their middle names, right? And it's a family joke that they'll quiz him and he'll get it wrong, like so abysmally wrong every single time. And the way that they interpret those facts about him are that he doesn't care about them, right? That they don't register for him, that he just doesn't even, that he cares about them so little that he doesn't even know their middle names. Courtney Richter: Yes. Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Katherine Center: And that's the starting place. And by the end, when we get to the epilogue, there is a theory floated that perhaps he has this thing called nominal aphasia where he literally cannot remember names. And yeah, know obviously that is his internet diagnosis, which I also... Courtney Richter: You Yeah. Yeah. But I love that though. And it's so true and real. It was such a great way to bring that in because we all know that feeling and can be so healing for yourself. Like, that's what that is. Okay. It's not on me. And that's okay. Katherine Center: I Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ my gosh. Yeah, that was great. And then, and then we have Cooper's backstory that comes out, which was like another one of those moments where I'm like, ⁓ Courtney Richter: Yes. Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Oh, where are we going here? You know? And then that is giving because Cooper kind of, Cooper knows that he's always been in love or it has flipped for him at some point that he was in love with JoJo. And JoJo's the one who's got to figure things out, right? So Cooper seems like very stable and like he's got it all figured out. And then later we have this moment with him and then we understand, you know, like why, where his fear of being in a space with only Katherine Center: ⁓ Yeah. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Katherine Center: Yeah, yeah. Caitlin Stryker: one door and stuff comes from. And then that all adds all these extra layers to who this guy is who seems like, you know, he's totally he knows all the things and has all the answers and you're like, ⁓ wow, you have some very real trauma, you know, in your childhood, ⁓ which was was wild. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Katherine Center: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I like that Cooper doesn't want to call it that either. know, he's like, he's like, well, it's not kidnapping if it's your dad, you know. ⁓ Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's true. Caitlin Stryker: Which like I believe isn't it like 95 % of the time it is one of the parents. Unfortunately our family member, you're like that's actually mostly how it happened. ⁓ Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Katherine Center: ⁓ Yeah, but yeah, he's, you know, he's, ⁓ you know, I mean, there's Cooper, right? He's like a dreamboat, right? He's so awesome. And he's very clear about how he feels about JoJo. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: you Katherine Center: he's never told her that and you know when have a situation like that as a writer you have to think why hasn't told her like why I mean there has to be a reason you can't just say he just didn't like You the writer need to know what that reason what is holding him back for being able to say it and in Cooper's case it was really really important to him not to tell JoJo what to do Right as his dad always told his mom ⁓ Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Yes. Yeah. Courtney Richter: Yeah. Katherine Center: what to do in a lot of very bad ways. And so, you know, his whole identity is wrapped up in not telling other people what to do, right? so, we're just out. Courtney Richter: done, which was valid. I wasn't sure how you were going. I wasn't sure how you were going to pull it off. Honestly, when we were like, and why hasn't he told her like, what do you get feeling like, okay, he's been in love with her, you get a feeling it's because she got engaged, but you're like, you're gonna ghost her over. You're losing her either way. You're not willing to say because you love her. Like, even if she turned you down, like you're still choosing that path. But then the actual backstory you did. Katherine Center: Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: pull it out and make it very bad. It really made sense that he wouldn't say it to her, that he wouldn't want to cause and do anything that could feel like telling her what to do or making her change her mind. Even at the wedding, he had just said, make if you want to. He still didn't tell her what to do. He's like. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Katherine Center: I, yeah, I... Yeah, I I try really, really hard ⁓ to, you know, and it's always a challenge with every book, but I try really, really hard to make sure that the characters have legitimate internal and external reasons for the choices that they make and that they're not just making those choices because it's a rom-com. You know what I mean? Like, they need to have real complicated Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Katherine Center: personality and emotional layers in their lives and they need to have real logical reasons for things. And one really great example of this that I think about sometimes is there's this movie, The Proposal with Ryan Reynolds and Sandra Bullock. And when I first heard about that movie, right, I was like, that is ridiculous. She's being deported to Canada? Like, come on. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Mm hmm. Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Yes, I will. Yeah. Katherine Center: You know, and then I saw the movie and I had to kind of like eat my thoughts because I was like, you know, I was not like once you're in it and once you're watching the movie, they build it so Courtney Richter: Thank Mm-hmm. Katherine Center: from the start of that movie that she is, you know, pompous and she's full of herself. And then she comes up with this idea and she forces him into it. And then she drags him down to the immigration office and then she cuts in line, right? And she's rude to everybody and she's thoughtless. And then she personally offends the guy in the immigration office who then kind of decides to make it his vendetta to go after her. And like, Caitlin Stryker: Yes. Courtney Richter: Yes. Katherine Center: every step along the way you're like okay yeah okay that works like based on her character and what's going on like I totally buy this and so that's what you have to do you have to make those people feel real and give them reasons for the choices that they're making and ⁓ so that we can all be like yeah I mean I might not have made that choice but I get I get the problem like I see it it's happening for no reason Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I totally agree. You know what's funny? My mom's cousin wrote that movie. Katherine Center: What? I think one of the great rom-coms of all time. I really were. Courtney Richter: Really? I love that movie. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah, know, so do I, so do I. And there's, you know, my ⁓ mom's side of the family straddles the border. there's the American and Canadian ⁓ family members and everything. So I think that's where the Canadian deportation thing came through. But yeah, it's one of the great rom-coms and he wrote it, which is really cool. Courtney Richter: Yay! Katherine Center: Yeah. ⁓ yeah! It is, it's one of the great rom-coms and it works perfectly. It's like Chef's Kiss, so good. And so yeah, I think. Courtney Richter: could come around again now too it'd be accurate. ⁓ Yeah, bring it back. You to watch. No, it's true. No, was gonna say but you've done it's I can I'm not surprised to hear that you work through in those steps because all of your books and I wasn't surprised that you pulled it out. I didn't have any I didn't lose any faith that I would get the answer to it but I did have that thought of like why are you saying it and then it all made sense. Caitlin Stryker: ⁓ god. Katherine Center: Cool different feel. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah, yeah. And then... ⁓ go ahead, Courtney. Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: But in all of your books, you do that you you're again your ratios here you talk about how you break it down. It makes me think of JoJo as a math teacher because it's almost like you're talking about your writing in a mathematical way. whatever that is ⁓ and then you have that mathematical ratio and then your innate sense of humor that just works into these books that are always like the perfect joyful summer beach read books that you can grab and just literally read anywhere and Caitlin Stryker: Hmm Yes. And like the exact reasons we tune in to rom-coms and we read like romance, romantic comedy romances, you know, like I love those slapstick moments of there's a pebble in my shoe, you know, or like I just, or like this dress is so tight that if I bend over, I'm just gonna tip. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Yes. to like you and pebble in your shoe because like I have that I have my things that my husband like oh my god this again like of course you you have a pebble in your shoe like you don't like do and then somehow there is also a pebble by the way for that crazy just some people attract pebbles okay I've narrow feet there's space Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Katherine Center: Yeah, that pebble in the shoe thing is totally me. I walk the dog every afternoon with my middle school teacher husband when he gets home from work, we take the dog around the neighborhood and I get five pebbles in one or the other. And we have to stop the dog walk. I have to lean on my husband's shoulder. I have to take my shoe off, shake it out, you know, and he's like, what is it with you and pebbles? Like what's going on? And, you know, those are things that you bring in, right? Those little truths. Courtney Richter: Yes! Always ⁓ Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: Yes! Katherine Center: Writing a piece of fiction is like making a collage and you're things from everywhere, know, something you dreamed and something you read about and something that happened to your sister and, you know, and then things from your own life, little details. And so that's how you try and make it real because I'm kind of a tough audience. You know, when I'm reading, especially rom-coms, like I don't want to be, but I just am hard on them. And, you know, I frequently am reading along and I'm just like, this is fake. Courtney Richter: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: Yes. Yes. Katherine Center: You know, like it doesn't feel real to me. So, and I want to believe it. I want to, but so when I'm writing, I work really, really hard to make everybody just seem flesh and blood and breathing and very specific, you know, with all their little quirks. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: And I think there are so many, you know, you can look at like, like real life is, is can be totally dramatic, but also like absolutely hilarious at the same time. And often in the, the more dramatic it is, the funnier it is, you know, like, and all of those things. And so I think that's where, when we're reading a rom-com that really works and is great, it just feels so real because it's like, yes, this is. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: what my life feels like, you know? Courtney Richter: Yes, As you said in your author's note, like you feel you're going through with the character, you're feeling what they're feeling and imagining yourself in that place because there is that sense of real in the humor in the drama that we all experience. Katherine Center: And then the story, like then what's happening in the story kind of becomes embodied in you. And then that experience is like not just something you're hearing about from across the room, but like it's happening to you. And then of course the glorious thing about that is that your brain gets this simulated experience of falling in love and then it starts making all these yummy chemicals like oxytocin and serotonin. Courtney Richter: It does. Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Yes. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Katherine Center: And then even when you're not reading, you're like at the grocery store, like looking at apples, you know, and you're like, ugh, life is so good. It's such an elevating, it's so uplifting to read these kinds of books. And I think it's a strange mystery. Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Yes! Totally! Yes, and why not have that lens on life? Yeah, yeah. Why not have an uplifting lens on life? It makes it a lot more fun. Yeah. Courtney Richter: Yeah. Katherine Center: I agree, I'm all about it. Courtney Richter: I love it. I wanted to ask though before, cause we'll wrap up soon. but you do tend to, you tend to publish once a year around this time of year. It's like, like your romcoms directly. And is that specifically because you like getting into that like beach light, like stop, not light, but romcom summer reading genre? Or is that just kind of naturally how things have fallen into cadence for you? Katherine Center: Yep. Yep. ⁓ That's when my publisher wants them. That's the main reason. But it's probably because typically in the publishing world, fall is for like big heavy, you know, literary things, tomes. Caitlin Stryker: Mmm. Courtney Richter: Yes. Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: Yes. Katherine Center: And, ⁓ and Spring is a bit, tends to be a bit lighter, you know, and, and I think, yeah, I mean, these, books I'm writing are definitely meant to be fun books that turn their own pages, right? I'm not, I don't need you sitting there with a thesaurus, like trying to work your way through them and writing your, you know, PhD on, Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Yep. Courtney Richter: ⁓ I read it in one sitting. literally started it, I bet, and I didn't go to sleep till like three, because I would just run through it. I'm like, need to just go through this. Caitlin Stryker: you It's... Yeah. Katherine Center: want them to be fun. want them to feel smooth and easy. And that's not to say that you couldn't write a PhD on this on one of my books, because I'm sure you could. But they're meant to be, they're not meant to be homework books, you know what I mean? And so, so they, yeah, so they position them early, sort of late spring, so that, yeah, so that all summer long, when you're going on vacation, you're thinking what's something that will make my vacation even better? You can grab books. So yeah, Courtney Richter: Right. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. You can. Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Yes. This is one of those. This book is a great take on your vacation summer read, you know, light. It's I thought that when I was reading, was like, ⁓ this is I'm recommending this to people as their beach vacation read. Like it's perfect. Yeah. Courtney Richter: It is. Mm-hmm. Katherine Center: Yeah, or going back to that idea of like trying to embody things. Like even if you can't go on a beach vacation, if you get the book, you can feel like you went on a cruise, you know, that you've been on a that's that. Yeah, that's perfect. Courtney Richter: be pulling it out. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah, you get to. Courtney Richter: Feels like it. Yes. Absolutely. Grab a pina colada in this book and like you have a mini vacation in your head. You're good to go. You're on. so in Canada I work for Indigo as well, which is the main bookseller in Canada. ⁓ book is, ⁓ we'll have to, have you come back here again? Yes. nice. ⁓ Yours always in our fiction section. So they're not in romance, they're in fiction. Caitlin Stryker: Yes. Totally. Katherine Center: I've been... I visited in Ottawa. Courtney Richter: ⁓ So if anyone's looking in Canada, get it, it's in fiction, but it's usually always pulled out as like our summer reads ⁓ books. But anyways, say this one, will definitely pulling onto the end caps and being hand selling it to like here is a great one. Grab this if you're going anywhere or you want to escape in your head as well. So. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Katherine Center: Well, I am also looking for reasons to get to come to Canada. My mother-in-law is Canadian, which means that my husband is, you know, dual citizenship, half Canadian, which is very cool. And ⁓ so, yeah, and I'm in Texas, which is a long way away, but we're always trying to find reasons to get up there. Courtney Richter: Well, come to Vancouver and let me know and we'll get you set up with the Indigos here in Vancouver. Big one. Cause everyone should come and see you and read these books. And also you're hilarious. And so I think anyone would come to hear you talk about books as well. Caitlin Stryker: Yes. Katherine Center: Yeah. Caitlin Stryker: Yes. Yes. Katherine Center: Yeah, I'd love it. I'd love it. If we can get Canada on the tour list, I'd be very thrilled. Courtney Richter: Let's do it. Caitlin Stryker: ⁓ yeah, let's do it for sure. Canada will be thrilled too. Absolutely. All right. Well, Katherine Center, thank you so much for coming on and speaking with us about your latest book, The Shippers. It is so good, you guys. Ooh, right before we sign off I do want to say, okay, so we talked about how it is a closed door romance, but Court, where does this fall in on your spice meter? Your pumpkin spice meter. Courtney Richter: Yes. you Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes, so a spice meter I would say it's a one pumpkin spice well one and a half because I kind of put YA like teen romances at one and this is a step up from that because it is very sexy kissing and it is alluded to that they're going to have sex and do it so I will still give it a 1.5 out of 2 because it does it's a hot kiss it's a body ⁓ Yes, but you can Yeah, you do agree down with yes ⁓ Caitlin Stryker: Yeah, it is. Yeah. Yeah. Katherine Center: Yeah, yeah, no, it's true. I try to make them very 3D if at all possible. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah, yes. I agree. It's a great one and a half and it's one of those days where you pick up like for a spice level, ⁓ where you pick it up and you just enjoy the ride, but you really are like, ⁓ I'm a little excited. This is so fun. Yeah. Courtney Richter: Yeah, then you feel great after. Katherine Center: There is a scene in the story where for important plot reasons, JoJo has to make Cooper give her a hickey. Courtney Richter: Mm-hmm. Caitlin Stryker: Mm-hmm. Courtney Richter: ⁓ yes! Yes! That was so funny! Caitlin Stryker: Yes, that's probably the one we're talking about. gotta be the thing that's pushing it that .5 up because that was so hot and then you kinda want it. Katherine Center: Yeah. Courtney Richter: Hickey too because that is it's not like everyone doesn't hasn't always had hickeys or given them either like I love that because it's not as much as you read in romance as if hickeys are marking your bodies are just things that always happen it doesn't and like in high school you were shamed if you had a hickey when I went to high school that was like ⁓ god she got a hickey so Katherine Center: Good stuff. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Yeah. Katherine Center: It sounds like such a naughty thing, but it's really just a person kissing your neck, right? But it's sounds very naughty. But in advance of writing that scene, I had to force my husband to give me the research. I was like, I need you to do this. Like, I'm sorry, how much time do you have? I need like 15 minutes. And I just need you to do this. And I swear, I, you know, Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: I It sounds odd, it's so true. Caitlin Stryker: It does! Courtney Richter: really do that too. Caitlin Stryker: Yes, I need to know. Amazing. Courtney Richter: you Katherine Center: kind of thing that I was more familiar with when I was a lot younger than I am now and I was like why are we not doing this every day? This is so fun and it's free like why aren't we doing this all the time? Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Yes! It's true. It's true. Courtney Richter: Yes! Try to give hickeys. Yes! And ask. It's so funny. Caitlin Stryker: No. That's the thing. When I was reading that scene, I was like, this is very hot. And I was like, why have I not had a hickey in so long? Why do I need to do that again? Courtney Richter: Right? It made it very attractive. Katherine Center: We're starting a movement, we need to bring back hickeys. This is like, we're sleeping on hickeys, it's crazy. Courtney Richter: The Hickey movement from Katherine Center. Well, and her cousin who's just covered in hickeys whole cruise. Caitlin Stryker: theory as to why it works. Katherine Center: Semiotics. Semiotics. Yeah, no, it's fine. I mean, that whole thing was so fun. Yeah. Courtney Richter: ⁓ my god! students we have to take you but also the ex marrying the sister wrote it and I like him still being a little grumpy of being dumped. I love that so much. Because it's so true. Like it doesn't matter. He's so happy their sister loves her. But his ego still still is just a little bit bruised. Katherine Center: ⁓ mad. ⁓ mad. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Katherine Center: I know, poor JoJo. She's just always getting the short end of things. Courtney Richter: It's so funny, like it's just, of course that's the situation. And of course it's still that awkward. I think it's so great. And that the guy that she had her crush on, like you said, doesn't remember her. Like you build it up, these moments in your life when you're a child so much. And then that reality of like, ⁓ wait, that really didn't matter. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. to anyone else. Courtney Richter: That was just me. I can let that go now. Okay, cool. We can. Katherine Center: Yeah, there's a lot of humiliation for her in this story, which I love because again, going back to the embodiment thing, humiliation is a full body emotion. so when, yeah. Caitlin Stryker: There it It is. is. Yeah. Courtney Richter: I lived right through it with her again. Like that's me at family of things. Everyone just loves to talk about all the things I did as a kid. Cool. This story again. Love hearing it. I'm not a full adult now that has a life. I know I'm the middle child. So the middle child gets all the like, yeah. Katherine Center: Yes, Caitlin Stryker: That's my sister. That is my poor sister. we did have to like, yeah. Yeah. It's true. I'm the oldest. So, you know, I have my own things, but classic Elvis daughter here. I was. Courtney Richter: You are perfect. Katherine Center: Yes. Courtney Richter: You're the easy one, then they came along. Caitlin Stryker: Yes! And then all the stories, you know, and my sister at one point just sits, it's all down and is like, I swear she's like 25 at this time, she's like, that's enough everybody. These stories are off the table. If you start them, I'm leaving the table. And I was like, fair. Katherine Center: It's pretty good. Boundaries. I like it. Courtney Richter: Good for her! Yes, yes! Caitlin Stryker: I will bite my tongue. I don't even, I've said my sister and I like outed myself as the eldest, but like she was like, Caitlin, stop introducing me as your younger sister. And I was like, okay, Courtney Richter: you That is hard to get rid of. Like my brother is my younger brother. He has four kids, a wife, a full family, but he's still my younger brother. He's still like, it doesn't, it's really hard. Caitlin Stryker: Stop infantilizing me. It's what I'm just saying. Katherine Center: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. I still call my littlest sister, my little sister, I still call her my baby sister, you know, she's a full grown adult. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah. Courtney Richter: Right? I know, it's so fun. Yes. Caitlin Stryker: family dynamics, which in this book are great and delightful and like just feel real and also ⁓ in a very like uplifting manner, which I love. I love. I love the whole the whole messaging that you've got going on. It's fabulous. Yeah. Courtney Richter: Yeah, beginning to end. Wonderful book. Katherine Center: You guys are the best. I could sit here and listen to you talk about this book all day long. It's so fun. Courtney Richter: Yes. Caitlin Stryker: Yeah! You know what, we gotta let you go, we gotta let our readers go, our listeners go. So thank you, Katherine Center once again. You guys, The Shippers, you gotta read it, it's amazing. ⁓ you ⁓ keep reading, stay cozy, we'll be talking to you ⁓ Bye! Courtney Richter: Thank you. Katherine Center: Thanks, Courtney Richter: Yeah. Yes. you. Katherine Center: Okay, thanks guys.