Latest / The Chuck ToddCast / Interview Only w/ Todd Ricketts - The Chicago Cubs Owner Trying To Fix How America Gets Its News

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Interview Only w/ Todd Ricketts - The Chicago Cubs Owner Trying To Fix How America Gets Its News · The Chuck ToddCast

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  Speaker 1: so use that code. So joining me now is the
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  Speaker 1: owner of the Chicago Cubs, and we're not going to
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: be talking baseball, although I might sneak in a question
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  Speaker 1: or two about what's coming in the next two years.
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  Speaker 1: Those of us who love baseball are worrid we're gonna
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: lose half a season. So I'm warning him now. I'm
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  Speaker 1: warning you now, mister Reckets. I will have a labor
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  Speaker 1: question towards the end. But you're on here because you've
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: got a new app and it's more than an app,
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: and it's sort of an interesting and I think it's
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: bigger than that, and I think the consumer facing app,
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: it's called free Spoke. I encourage people to take a
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: look at it right now, get your free trial right now,
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: and what it attempts to do. And I'm gonna let
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  Speaker 1: mister Ricketts describe it in more detail, but I'll just
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  Speaker 1: give you my first impressions. You know, it wants to
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  Speaker 1: give you an array of perspectives. Label the perspective, so
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  Speaker 1: you'll see left, right, and middle based on publisher leanings
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  Speaker 1: rather than individual reporter leanings. And we'll get into that
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  Speaker 1: a little bit. But the idea is to quote paint
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  Speaker 1: the full picture. This also particularly on political topics or
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  Speaker 1: on issues that are more subjective than objective. Right we
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  Speaker 1: have in this, of course, is this this war? We
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  Speaker 1: can all be claimed that it's being fought sometimes between
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  Speaker 1: left and right over what is truth, what is what
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  Speaker 1: is real? Et cetera. And this is one of the
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  Speaker 1: more interesting answers I've seen out there. You know, All
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  Speaker 1: sides media is something that I've been very curious about
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  Speaker 1: for a long time, and this is a new entry
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  Speaker 1: into this. And mister Todd Ricketts joins me. Now, so Todd,
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  Speaker 1: how did I do describing it and fill in the
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  Speaker 1: blanks here? Because I didn't do justice to your AI
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  Speaker 1: search engine, which I find also quite interesting.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think you did a prety good job.
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  Speaker 2: And really what we set out to do was, you know,
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  Speaker 2: I'll step back to like where I came at it from.
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  Speaker 2: It's like, as you look at social media and big technology,
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  Speaker 2: I felt like, oftentimes you're being led down a narrative.
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  Speaker 2: Oftentimes you're being let down a narrative that just reinforces
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  Speaker 2: what they already know about you to a little.
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  Speaker 1: Information bias, right, It's something that the Internet is really
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  Speaker 1: made that phrase, which was sort of a phrase that
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  Speaker 1: was rarely used pre Internet days, to now something we
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  Speaker 1: think about a lot, you know, yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And a lot of it is like, you know, these
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  Speaker 2: the platforms are trying to get you to spend more
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  Speaker 2: time there, but they're also just reinforcing what you see
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  Speaker 2: to give you things you'd like. And what that has done,
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  Speaker 2: in my opinion, is like it's kind of driven that
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  Speaker 2: divide in Americans where you know, I think, you know,
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  Speaker 2: in previous generations, people were Republicans or people were Democrats,
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  Speaker 2: and maybe they talked about politics, but nobody took it
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  Speaker 2: to heart in the same sort of way. And I
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  Speaker 2: think we just got to a point where we couldn't
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  Speaker 2: even agree on the facts because where like people are
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  Speaker 2: getting driven down to their own side. And so what
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  Speaker 2: I wanted to do is like create a search engine
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  Speaker 2: and you know, and like a little bit of a
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  Speaker 2: a search engine layered on with AI that kind of
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  Speaker 2: takes in everything that's being published and finds that overlap
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  Speaker 2: and then also kind of defines or kind of tries
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  Speaker 2: to like describe each side in like normal terms, not
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  Speaker 2: no name calling, just say this is how the where
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  Speaker 2: these people are coming from. This is where these people
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  Speaker 2: are coming from. And so you can kind of inform
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  Speaker 2: yourself because I have a lot of faith in the
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  Speaker 2: American people that given good information, they'll come up with
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  Speaker 2: good answers. And so that was kind of like where
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  Speaker 2: we started. And what we did was we built our
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  Speaker 2: own index of the Internet, so we're not relying on
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  Speaker 2: Being or Google, and then layered our own algorithm of
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  Speaker 2: AI on top of that and really trained our AI
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  Speaker 2: to be just the facts. Man, is it current? Is
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  Speaker 2: it relevant? And is it leading? Like when? So what
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  Speaker 2: we say is we're we're not trying to lead anybody
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  Speaker 2: in a particular narrative. We're trying to present all sides,
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  Speaker 2: present everything that we can find, and then let people
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  Speaker 2: make them to their own mind.
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  Speaker 1: So let's talk about the search engine aspect to this,
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  Speaker 1: because you know, I mean that's the part that in
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  Speaker 1: some ways I'm excited to see if this will be
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  Speaker 1: more functional than search in general at the moment, right,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, with the big tech companies so focused on
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  Speaker 1: their AI offerings, search, you know, is search is difficult,
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  Speaker 1: and frankly everybody's search has become monetized, right, that's not
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  Speaker 1: consumer friendly, it is, you know, we're the mark as
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  Speaker 1: I always say, right, like you know, when you do
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  Speaker 1: a search on an old school Google search, it takes
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  Speaker 1: a while before you get out of sponsored content, and yeah,
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  Speaker 1: that's right. Yeah, And so I would, you know, and
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  Speaker 1: I think I'm a little nervous about just turning search
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  Speaker 1: over to AI. It seems like you're trying to bridge this.
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  Speaker 2: No, definitely, definitely, And so we do protect your privacy,
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  Speaker 2: so we're not tracking you like the other companies. And
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  Speaker 2: you kind of said it without saying it is that
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  Speaker 2: if you're on the Internet and you're getting something for free,
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  Speaker 2: you are the product, like you are being sold. Your
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  Speaker 2: information is being sold. They're trying to find advertisers to
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  Speaker 2: match up with like what kind of tennis shoes you like,
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  Speaker 2: or what kind of car you might buy and so on,
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  Speaker 2: and so you're being sold out there, and there's a real,
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  Speaker 2: like I think, long term privacy concern about that because
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  Speaker 2: maybe people are like, well, I like seeing the ad
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  Speaker 2: from my favorite shoe company and knowing what they're putting
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  Speaker 2: out there. But then you're like, where does it stop?
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  Speaker 2: And how do you how do you maintain control of that?
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  Speaker 2: And also, you know, we want to make sure that
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  Speaker 2: the people that are buying the ads aren't driving the
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  Speaker 2: content you're seeing, like you're saying, like you get a
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  Speaker 2: bunch of advertising your sponsored content to the beginning. So
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  Speaker 2: we're trying to avoid all that and really just bring
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  Speaker 2: the best information we can in front of people. And
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  Speaker 2: when you think about all the AI platforms, whether it
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  Speaker 2: be Chat, GBT or Gemini or what have you, that
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  Speaker 2: still is search. It's not that different than what.
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  Speaker 1: No, it's just it's curated search essentially.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's a thousand times faster. Right If Google,
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  Speaker 2: a regular Google search could come up with something a
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  Speaker 2: thousand times faster, it can just come up with something
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  Speaker 2: that's a little more elaborate and a little more catered
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  Speaker 2: and curated to you, and so it's all about like, Okay, well,
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  Speaker 2: where are those people getting their content and how are
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  Speaker 2: they where are the platform is getting their content? And
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  Speaker 2: how much of it is Reddit and how much of
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  Speaker 2: it is coming from being and how much physic is
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  Speaker 2: coming from Google and other sources.
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  Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting. You're not the first baseball owner
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  Speaker 1: I've had this conversation with. Well, really, Frank McCourt project Liberty,
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  Speaker 1: Are you familiar with what he has been trying to do,
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  Speaker 1: because you guys are on the same page, and you know, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: And I understood sort of where he came at this,
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  Speaker 1: and I always sort of really much empathized. He said,
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  Speaker 1: you know, fifteen years later, the first five things when
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  Speaker 1: you google Frank McCord is something that happened in his
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  Speaker 1: life fifteen years ago, right, And it was this idea
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  Speaker 1: that you had no control over your own identity and
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  Speaker 1: his whole philosophy. And I think it's it's admirable. But
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  Speaker 1: I don't know how we put this toothpaste back in.
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  Speaker 1: But I feel like you're going down this road too,
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  Speaker 1: which is instead of that us seeking permission of the
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  Speaker 1: tech companies to use their product, that Essentially, apps or
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  Speaker 1: tech companies ask our permission to monetize us, and while
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  Speaker 1: they are technically asking our permission, we're being coerced because
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  Speaker 1: if you don't accept the terms and conditions, you don't
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  Speaker 1: get the updated bells and whistles. Is this something the
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  Speaker 1: market can fix or is government going to have to intervene?
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  Speaker 2: Well, just to go back to Frank, I think I
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  Speaker 2: think Frank has another layer to what he's trying to
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  Speaker 2: do too, is that, like, and if you're going to
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  Speaker 2: take the information you know about me and take you
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  Speaker 2: to the market and sell it, I deserve to cut
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  Speaker 2: of that. I deserve to get I deserve to get
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  Speaker 2: paid on that somehow. So I'm using your product. It's free,
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  Speaker 2: for sure, But if you're going to go sell information
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  Speaker 2: about me like that that money, I have a right
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  Speaker 2: to some of that as well, if I've opted into that.
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  Speaker 2: And so I don't know how that lands, but I
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  Speaker 2: think it's a great from the philosophical point of view,
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  Speaker 2: I think it's a great idea. I should be able
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  Speaker 2: to go like, well, if I'm going to be on
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  Speaker 2: the Internet and they're going to sell information about me
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  Speaker 2: based on my patterns, my habits, Yeah, I should I
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  Speaker 2: should participate in that as well.
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  Speaker 1: Well, you know, it's funny. I remember having this large
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  Speaker 1: debate with him, like you know, it's the the And
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  Speaker 1: I've had this discussion with Hi people high people up
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  Speaker 1: at Meadow where we've had this conversation, which is, my
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  Speaker 1: data individually is not valuable, but my data coupled with
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  Speaker 1: a million people in Arlington, Virginia is extraordinarily valuable. How
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  Speaker 1: do you compensate it?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah? No, I don't know. I don't know what the
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  Speaker 2: right answer is. But I love, like I say, philosophically,
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  Speaker 2: I think it's the right direction, and CAS should be
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  Speaker 2: a meta. I don't know how they rapidly get their
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  Speaker 2: head rep aroound all the data they do have, right,
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  Speaker 2: It's like they have so much they're swimming in it,
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  Speaker 2: and I'm sure that they have trouble trying to keep
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  Speaker 2: it organized themselves.
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  Speaker 1: Well, And I guess that's the question, is should data
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  Speaker 1: be regulated like a public utility? Is data electricity?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question.
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  Speaker 1: I don't you know. I think this is a I mean,
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  Speaker 1: it sounds like you believe this is an issue that
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  Speaker 1: our politicians out of debate. Rather do you have an
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  Speaker 1: opinion on this.
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  Speaker 2: Well, what I think is it has to happen, is
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: it has to come from society, like people have to
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: and I think at some point there's going to be
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  Speaker 2: some sort of event that will make it clear to
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  Speaker 2: people that they should be more we're concerned about their
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  Speaker 2: their Internet identity and how their information is being shared
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: and who has it and so on. And I think
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  Speaker 2: it has to be people saying like, I'm concerned about
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  Speaker 2: who has my information, and it has to be that
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  Speaker 2: sort of ground swell up before we're going to get
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: a top down sort of answer. And I feel like
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: if you if it comes from that direction, then we're
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: going to get a better answer anyway, because it'll be
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: come from people expressing their concerns and wanting to control
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  Speaker 2: their own information.
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  Speaker 1: One of the hallmarks of your app is that it
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: is that it, you know, protecting my privacy, right the
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  Speaker 1: ideas you're protecting user privacy. So this next question I'm asking,
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  Speaker 1: I wonder if this if the if your protection of
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  Speaker 1: privacy gets in the way from you be able to
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  Speaker 1: search the following. But you know, one of the things
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  Speaker 1: with labeling news does it come from the left, right,
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  Speaker 1: or center, is that it becomes almost like a a
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  Speaker 1: a neon sign for those that want their news that way.
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  Speaker 1: And what you find out and what I think I
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  Speaker 1: have frustratingly found out myself and maybe, and I'm curious
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  Speaker 1: if you guys have been able to do some research,
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: is that while people say they want all perspectives, they
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  Speaker 1: usually only look at one one. Have you been able
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  Speaker 1: to denote, you know, without violating people's privacy, do the labels?
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  Speaker 1: Because this is where I'm torn on the labels. In
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  Speaker 1: this respect, I think the label should be there. I
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  Speaker 1: would just argue put them at the end of the
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: article and humor me a minute, which is, if you
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  Speaker 1: add the label, then automatically I'm going to our brains, right,
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  Speaker 1: You're just going to read it. I almost like read
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  Speaker 1: it as if somebody from stage left is saying it
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  Speaker 1: or somebody from stage right, versus consuming it, forming my
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: own opinion and then seeing, oh, this came from stage
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  Speaker 1: left or this came from stage right. And look, it's
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: a small thing. But I'm curious if you guys had
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  Speaker 1: a debate where do you put the label? You put
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  Speaker 1: it high and very prominent, and on one hand, that's
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: the premise of free spoke, right, So I get it,
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  Speaker 1: but if you had all done any consumer research of
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  Speaker 1: how people are using the labels.
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  Speaker 2: You know, I don't know if we've had like that
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  Speaker 2: sort of like sort of survey of where to where
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  Speaker 2: to label it or how people feel about it. My
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: hope is that when people see those labels, that they'll
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: see something that's left and see something that's right and
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: read both articles, or they can kind of come down
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: to our perspectives where it kind of shows that consensus
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: and that overlap. But we haven't done anything specific about
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  Speaker 2: trying to track people and if people have patterns of
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: like this individual goes to it clicks on everything that
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: says left, or that individual's clicks on everything that says right. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: but we would have trouble finding that because we do
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: protect people's privacy and we don't track people in that manner.
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  Speaker 1: No, it's something because look, I say this as somebody
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  Speaker 1: building my own you know it is you. If you
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: don't tack you know, essentially prominent left or prominent right,
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: it is a slower build than if you signpost right.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: And the irony is that that's been the conundrum of
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: American politics. We all kind of revert to the mean
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: of somewhere between the thirty five yard lines right when
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: push comes to shove, and yet the dialogue is inside
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: is on the other side of those thirty five yard
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: lines in both perspectives, right and so, and the middle
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: is hard to find, especially we're in the middle of
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: a pre a realignment todd you know, meaning that you
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: know what was left is right on some things, like
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: take the issue of trade free traders are left owners
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: and protectionist, right, That's what I grew up, right.
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: It's it's I would say that in this moment and
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  Speaker 2: this strategy that the President is using to try to
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: get to it, I think what he wants to do well,
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: he definitely wants to enshore some of the manufacturers, but
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: I think in the end what he wants is just
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: better trade deals than we've had historically. And so I
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: don't know if like the president necessarily wants terifs forever
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: he talks in those terms because he's always he's selling ideas,
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: he's and he's pushing the developer way.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: He speaks like every developer the inabsolute you know, it's
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: kind of the greatest ever, the biggest ever, the most ever.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, yes, you know he is sort
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: of a developer first.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: Well, I think I think, like you know, Scott Pascenta
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: said it a bunch of times that you know, if
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  Speaker 2: other countries got rid of their tariffs, we'd get rid
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  Speaker 2: of all of ours as well, and so it's kind
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: of trying to like land in this place where there's
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: just a little less protectionism going on around the world.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: And I come at him from this view of like
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: in nineteen forty five, we signed trade deals with everybody
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: saying like, we'll buy all the products you can make,
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: and we're going to secure the sea lane so your
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: products can make it to the United States, and we
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: weren't so concerned about what they were going to buy
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: back from US, and so we had these like one
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: sided trade deals, and over time that has worked against us.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: In the nineties and the early two thousands, we were
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: like everybody was like this, free trade, free trade, free trade,
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: Republicans and Democrats alike. And I think the idea that
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  Speaker 2: was sold on everybody at that time was we're going
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  Speaker 2: to take manufacturing from towns like Youngstown, Ohio, and that
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: may go to Mexico, but then that's going to get
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  Speaker 2: backfilled with high tech, you know, high tech service jobs.
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  Speaker 2: And what happened is we saw a lot of that
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: manufacturing leave and not get that backfilled. So a lot
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  Speaker 2: of these small cities were left with unemployment and meth
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: amptam right. I think that's what the President sees. It
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: sees that like this, these trade deals that have taken
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: manufacturing away from the US and not brought back the
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: promise of the high tech service jobs that was supposed
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: to come in their place. And he's like, well, you know,
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: maybe we just need to bring some of that back
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: on chore until we figure this out.
• 16:44
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  Speaker 1: have cross pressure, right, We have sort of like you
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: know eighties you know they you know, I you know,
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: I remember during the Republican convention when I heard the
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: Teamsters president speak. It would have been fit right in
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: the eighty four convention for Walter Mondale, you know, and
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: I don't. And it's and the point being is, so
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: this is where I I appreciate the labels, but and
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: I and I think you you hint at this. It's
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: like you want to keep them simple. But take take
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: George Well, right, where do you label him? Right? And
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: I say this, you know, he is to me a
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: classical conservative small seat.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's right.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: But my guess is it doesn't fit your these labels.
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: I think I think he's still he's still would be conservative.
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: He's just you know, maybe he's not in step with
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: the Republican Party at the moment. Like we just labeled
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: him Cubs fan and we just hold on to him.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: Hey, we Nats fans claim, you know, he goes to
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: more Nats games than Cubs games.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm sure that's true, But but he sits
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: next to me when he comes to Cubs games.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, but he has his own seated that's games.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: But yeah, okay, if I can say, can I get
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: off topic for a second and tell a cude story.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: I was sitting next to him at a at a
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: game against the Mets years ago and Bartola Cologne was
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: pitching and he was like, he was like, I don't
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: know if he was forty four or something, and.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: I was like, I told me he was really sixty,
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: like though he never had his birth rate ticket, right,
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't be shocked.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And I'm like, hey, like, I don't all
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: I know is that you don't get better after forty
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: I'm like, he must be taking something. I don't know
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: what it is. And uh, he came out of the
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: bullpen and you know he at that time, he probably
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: weighed two hundred and fifty pounds. He was big, he was.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: And he's not like super tall either, he was big.
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: George was city next to me. He's like, you think
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: that guy is on steroids. And I'm like, well, steroids
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: and burritos, baby, but yeah, I've had some good times
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: in Georgia. Oh, it's not to get too off topic.
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: I know we're talking about.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: No, no, no, yeah, and I guess that that's my you know.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: You know it's funny about political labels, is it's everybody
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: wants them for everybody else, but not themselves.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, everybody thinks they're in the middle, right, everybody
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: thinks they're that they're they're like the middle of everything,
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: and uh so it's tough. And and again, yeah, it's
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: not a perfect system that we have. We we kind
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: of use outside outside groups that that label content. We
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: have we have the ability to label it in house,
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: but we haven't started doing that ourselves yet, so we
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: looked kind of outside. So it's really just more of
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: a guy. It's not meant to be this this overarching
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: black and white of because even even within left and right,
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: there's like a good range of you know, of spectrum there.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: Well, let me ask this, is this a for profit
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: or nonprofit?
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: It's for profit. Yeah, and so we we do we
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: do sell ads like and and we do have a
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: premium service where you can pay five dollars a month
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: to customize your experience and and put in some of
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: your preferences. And we're sort of elaborating on that and
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: trying to expand that out a little bit. So it
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: is for profit and like you say, like we do
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: generate revenues that way. We just don't do in the
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: same way that that other search engines or other platforms
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: have historically.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: And so what is your how many human beings are
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: curating and how much of this is is AI is
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: sort of some you know, sort of audio some sort
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: of automation, Like how much of the human curation is
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: in is in the editorial process.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: So when you uh, when you come to the side
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: everything that you do, as far as when you search,
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: when you type anything into the bar, that is going
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: to be automatic from our AI layered onto our our index.
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: But when it comes to like the current event we
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: have we do have people to kind of put up
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: like the current event news that are that's on the homepage,
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: and that's curated by humans, and that's really just trying
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: to identify the top stories of the day and kind
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: of like yeah, give like what's breaking and keep things
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: current and relevant on that homepage. So that's the only
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: part that's really human curated.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: Do you do you me I look, I'm a I'm
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: believing competition whatever it is, and that your organ is
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: You should always want to have your organization measuring itself
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: against someone or some entity or what it is. Who
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: is free spoken? Who are you measuring yourself against it
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: appenk us is it being what are you measuring yourself against?
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: No, I would say it's more being Google still, you know,
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: those would be that those would be the people we're
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: looking at. And then because we do have that that
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: kind of AI larying, if you're spending your time on
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: chatchibt and Jemini, I always tell people like go ahead,
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: like compare compared to like the results you get under
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: from the AI platforms too, to what you're getting at
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: free spoke.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: Explain how your large language model works. So if I
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: if you're using Claude or chatchbt for research, Yeah, what
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: what is the you know, give me, give me the
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: give me, give me your pitch of why it's better
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: to use your large your.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: A because we really we really try to strip out
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: all the bias. You know, a lot of the those
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: the clouds that are looking if you're looking for current information,
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: they're looking at places like Reddit where it's there. There
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: is a lot of bias in Reddit, and so if
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: it's taking Reddit at space value, it's going to express itself.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: Do you keep Reddit completely out of your system or
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: how do you deal with Reddit?
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: You know, what we try to do is it's not
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: about trying to keep people out of the system. It's
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: about always trying to find balance in everything we do.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: So if there's if you type on a search on
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: some sort of topic and there's a thousand stories from
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: the from the right and only four stories from the left,
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: we're going to kind of pick four stories from the
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: right and four stories from the left and kind of
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: blend those in. So you're not just saying like saying like, oh,
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: there's only stuff on the right here. We're trying to
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: like bring in both sides, regardless of how much content
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: there is all that topic topic from whichever side.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: That's interesting because sometimes there's just some issues that are
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: just you know, I really don't care what the left
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: has to say about you know, Trump, Packston versus Cornyn,
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: and I don't care what the right has to say
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: about AOC versus Jos Shapiro, right, Like, so there are
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: some issues that you know, it makes more sense to
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: me that only the rights animated or only the lefts animated.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And what you find on some of these topics,
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: it's you know, some some topics don't get covered by
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: the left or covered by the right, And so when
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: you if you search on that, you're going to find
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: a ton of content from one side and none on
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: the other. And so we were just trying to kind
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: of kind of come back to that just the facts,
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: ma'am sort of answer. And so we're trying to pull
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: from both sides, and so it's not and give a
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: balanced point of view that doesn't say like, oh, well,
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: everything on this is from the right.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: If you had your druthers, how would you tell news
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: organizations in the so called legacy media? You know, and
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: I don't know what that I know, I know what
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: I think, I know what people mean when they say it.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: I know I'm referring to sort of the quote traditional networks,
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: the longstanding newspapers, right, those things, you know, maybe the
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: wire services. What would you like to see as a consumer?
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: Do you want to know about the author, the editor,
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: the publication, you know, what would give you? And I
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: just say this because I think ultimately you know that
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: that I'm sure has informed how you went about this.
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: So I'm just so like, what would you if you
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: were in their focus group saying, hey, help us widen
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: our aperture so that we have people left, right and
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: center consuming our content.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I don't. I don't know what I
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: would say specifically too, was just picking like network news, right.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: But what we have seen and we've kind of shaped
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: our product around that, is that fewer people are turning
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: to network news or even cable news for their information
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: and more more and more people are turning into podcasts
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: like your podcast. Uh. And you know, people like the
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: Joe Rogan's of the world, and you find all these
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: the Theo Vaughn's, and they're informing themselves through these these
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: podcasts that have huge followings. And if I was somebody
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: at a network right now, I'd see that as a
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: red flag. It's like, Okay, what are we doing that
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: people trust Joe Rogan more than they trust us. And
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: I mean I can start off by saying, well, Joe
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: Rogan's a great interviewer first of all, but it's not
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: it's less about like his views because he lets people,
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: he lets people talk, but he's not necessarily news.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: I mean, right, whatever you think of Joe Rogan, he
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: makes it. You know, the first rule of of of
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: any sort of content is make it interesting.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and he like I mean, Joe Ruggan is wherever
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: he's at, he's like, I think he's a good interviewer
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: because he just asked a question and then he stops talking, right,
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: and he lets people just go on and on and on,
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: and then he'll go down rabbit hole. But if I
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: was like at CBS or Somelace someplace like that today
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: and say like, hey, you know what, why why are
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: we losing people to these other these other platforms and
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: these other forms of media, and like really question, It's like, okay,
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: so we were holding on to people that are, you know,
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: in one profile on the spectrum of politics where we
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: have them, and do we want to expand and make
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: it more consumable or if you just want to focus
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: on the people that we have and and kind of
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: stand in their lane. No.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I could tell you where where
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: I was running into problems was just on length of interviews,
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: and you know, and that's that was the that was
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: always the fight. And I used to say, look, you know,
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: I referred to the Sunday shows as baseball analytics, meaning
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: there was this point in baseball where everybody had the
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: same data. Right at first, it was an advantage for
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: teams that were using data, and eventually everybody's going to
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: use the same data, and then all of a sudden,
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: everybody understood how to you know, do the do the
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: you know, you know, do the do the the switch
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: whatever when they when they would move all the infielders
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: to one side or the other, and you know, bring
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: in the lefty, the left the righty, righty and all
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: this stuff, and it was becoming almost predictable and you knew.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: And was same with Sunday interviews, meaning everybody's knew, oh
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: it's seven to eight minutes. You know, I can fill
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: a buster question one and this and this is the
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: pattern and you know, it's this tyranny of if it
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: just it was no different than anything else you could
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: see during the week. And I used to argue, no, no, no,
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: you got to be you know, this has got to
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: be the long interview. Don't be afraid of it. And
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: what are what's podcast treating teaching us? People want thirty
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: to forty five?
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: Yes, well, I mean that's because there's so many of
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: these issues today that where you know, you and I
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: could be asked on a question and you're like, well
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: what do you think of this? It's like, well, my
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: ten second answer is like I agree with that, and
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: I don't agree with that.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: I'm going to interact. You've already proven it once. Look
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: at the trade No, look at the trade conversation we had.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: It was not a simple answer, and it isn't right.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: It is a complicated answer, and you were giving a
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: very complicated nuance response, which if you were doing a
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: five minute segment on one of the cable channels, which
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: you've done a few times, you know, boy, if I
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: gave that long answer, then I'm you know, I'm not
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: going to be able to talk about this, this, and this.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, one hundred percent, it's one hundred percent. You
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: get into that. I think you hit right onto. These
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: sound bites don't allow any of the commentators or any
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: of the journalists that are part of it to like
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: really dig deep, to like that second level of information.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: It really it is a problem on television and cable
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: with these short little it's like just ten seconds, like
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: what's your one little sound bite? And even politics gets
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: into that too, where it's hard to have a long,
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: comprehensive answer answer to anything if you have to put
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: it into ten seconds.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: Well, and then politicians then you get the extra issue,
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: which is they're they're now afraid to do numances because
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: they're afraid something's going to get clipped. Yeah, right, exactly,
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: you get clipped, right, and then that becomes I mean,
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: trust me, I've been clipped for years now. Like you
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: said this, I'm like, yeah, but did you hear what
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: I said? This? And this, which totally changes the context
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: of that.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: You know, right, everything's taken out of context all the time.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: Right, And it's one thing I've I'm guessing, I don't
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: want to guess are you making individual deal with the
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: news organizations because I don't see any Wall Street Journal,
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: and I'm wondering. Are the paywalls a challenge for this?
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: It was are a huge challenge. So luckily a lot
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: of our users on the places that they like, they
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: have a subscription already to places like Wall Street Journal,
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: but we don't. We don't highlight or downgrade anybody's results
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: based on whether there's a paywall or not. We try
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: to bring the headlines and the little snippets that we
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: can grab and give it the best we can, so.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: It is included in your search. So would be there
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: the Atlantic anybody with a paywall?
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, all that the paywalls do get included in there.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: They just might may not get as highlighted as as
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: well because we don't have enough information on those particular
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: articles to give a full.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: I will say the labels on the sports coverage, did
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: you guys debate whether you needed it or not?
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah? I can't remember. It's been a little while since
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: we did that.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: I mean, take the Athletic and you note in the
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: about page because the Athletic is labeled left, and in
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: the about page you say, look, it's the publisher, and
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: in this case, the New York Times is the publisher.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: I totally understand where you're putting the New York Times.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: But you're like the Athletic, I don't know, like I
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: just don't think of them as you know, yeah maybe
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: culturally if you none of.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: Them are nice to me, so we should just put
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: them as wrong at least maybe not nice to our team.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: But that was the one where you're like, huh, okay,
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I you know sports, you know
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: there's a handful of places that are trying to put
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: a political lens in their sports coverage. I hope that
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: doesn't become a fad.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: That's going to be more like driven by like the
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: advent of the world, like because we draw from those
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: guys than gomseelves directly. So they're they're putting that label
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: on there and it's uh and we're trying to we're
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: accepting those as you know, as a base just to
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: have something.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: So let me give you the one Devil's Advocate question
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: that something like this, because you know, crowdsourcing subjective material
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: I think is a is a winner. I'm a big
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: fan of it. I want to know, right, at the
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: same time, fact, just because something's crowdsource doesn't mean it's true.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: So the separation of truth and you look, you made
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: your you made your mark in the financial world, and
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: you're making your mark on on actual data and truth. Right,
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: So what's the what's what's what do you feel as
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: if free spokes responsibility is on the miss and disinformation
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: side of things?
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, if you go in and you click
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: on perspectives and any of these topics, right, what it
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: does is it's finding that that gray area that or
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: that that overlap between and so often what you find
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: is that like if it's misinformation, it's coming from one
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: side and it won't show up on the other side
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: at all. And so in the perspectives it kind of
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: you kind of get the overlap of like what both
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: sides acknowledge as true and a lot of that, a
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: lot of the other stuff gets kind of it's taken
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: over to, you know, the left and the right itself
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: as you as you kind of page down on this
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: on these searches.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: What's two point oh? I mean, I I have an
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: idea of what free Spoke two point oh would be,
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: but I'm curious what what you have planned in your head.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: I'd love to, you know, I'd love to hear your
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: two point oh. But I think as we go forward,
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: what we want to do is we want to add
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: more customization to our premium product and let people really
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: kind of tell us what they want and shape that
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: that experience for themselves. So I think that's what we're
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: going to be working on for the rest of the
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: year and try to get more and more people into
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: that product.
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, look, I know I know what I'd be
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: doing if I were at the hotline using this as
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: a tool right now, because it would perhaps give me
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: the opportunity I want to know, what are the what
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: are the where's their agreement? Show me the agreement between
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: between left and right and I and then highlight the disagreement. Yeah,
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: tell me where you know, like, because that is a
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: consumer right of news and analy analyst. It allows me. Okay,
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: they believe it's this is the reason, and they believe
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: it's this is I got it. Okay, and I think,
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: you know, my guess is that's where you're headed. Right.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: Round one is putting all this together, you know. Round
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: two is getting to all that. And the only fear
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: I have and what I've envisioning in my head is
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: do I want a human being doing this or do
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: I want AI doing this? And I know that it's
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: easier probably to have AI do it. It might be
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: ninety five percent good, but then you worry about the
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: five percent that AI doesn't understand, you know, because it's
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: just a probability thing, and then it can screw up
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: the perceptional whole thing.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: Well yeah, yeah, the AI is only as good as
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: the person who trained it or the people that train it, and.
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: So we can garbage out right exactly.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: And so I think I feel pretty good about our
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: technicians who kind of live this every day, who are
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: trying to really forget that AI to able to identify
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: bad information on its own right, and then again kind
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: of bring that again. I keep saying, like that, just
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: the facts, just the facts. We're trying to, like, just
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: put the facts in front of you and let you
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: read them and make up your own mind as to
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: what makes sense to you. And I think, yeah, we'll
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: get better and better in that as time goes on
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: and as we have more searches and more.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: Do you see a newsletter business for you?
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: Maybe maybe they could be.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: What do you think is the next business here and your.
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: I was actually going to start my own podcast and
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: call it the Toodcast. So I think you're going to
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: be hearing from my attorneys pretty soon.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: And you got better at You probably have better paid
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: attorneys than I do. You know, Here's what I learned
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: by calling it the Toddcast. Uh Todd. First of all,
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: as somebody, you know, when your last name is Todd,
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: everybody assumes your first name is Todd. I've been third
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: generation of this. All all the male Todds in my
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: family ended up just succumbing to their last name being
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: their first name. But I had I got to take
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: this with me from NBC because they couldn't. You know,
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: NBC never lets intellectual property leave, but they couldn't claim
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: that they could use the Chuck todcast for somebody else.
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, sound somebody else in Chuck that'd be right.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: So this is the this is the hack. If you
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: work for somebody else, name a product after yourself, and
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: at least you have a boxer's chance of keeping your right.
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: So you're with, yeah, So, but I don't. I don't
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: really know if we're going to get into the newsletter business,
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: but we might. The world is changing and just.
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: The basic business ad ad sales and subscriptions the two models.
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so we just need to find more people and
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: more people, more people.
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: So of course, all right, before I let you go,
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: I don't you know, don't get an owner of a
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: of a sports team, and you probably somebody probably prepped
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: you in the fact that I was a one of
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: the founders of Sports Business Journal, So cut my teeth
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: and cover, you know, create essentially creating the daily sports
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: business beat, which the industry didn't think it needed until
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: we created the product and then it then you know,
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: Sports Business Journal is what it is today. So baseball
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: in twenty twenty seven. This is one of those difficult
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: things because from sixty thousand feet. The answer seem obvious,
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: the details are very difficult. If there's a sal can
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: you sell a salary cap without complete equal revenue sharing
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: among the owners?
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think the answer is the short answers yes,
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: the network news answer is yes, and a little bit
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: more detailed answer is. All the other leagues have kind
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: of gone through this, right, They've all had that growing
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: pain of getting into having a hard tap and having
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: a hard floor to make sure that the league stays competitive.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: I think what you'll see in baseball is we'll have
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: sort of a revenue sharing model that might have to
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: do with TV rights, like taking more TV up to
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: the league and splitting that and making sure that every
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: team has enough to breach the floor. And if you
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: think of that, it just like taking one hundred million
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: dollars the pain roll away from the Dodgers and taking
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: it to the Pirates and making sure the Pirates have
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: enough money to cover it.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: And you, as the owner of the Chicago Cubs, who
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: frankly have more opportunity for revenue than the Minnesota Twins
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: or the Pittsburgh Pirates, you're going to be okay with sharing.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: You know that you're basically contributing more to the pot
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: than the Pittsburgh Pirates in the Minnesota Twins.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: I I I, yeah, No, I'm comfortable with that. Like,
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: if the league doesn't have competitiveness, we're going to start losing.
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: And so we need to have a competitiveness across the board.
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: Although I will say in baseball doesn't spending money doesn't
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: always turn into results. The Dodgers beauty of the.
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: Best three and five, Please don't ever get rid of it,
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: because it's the great equalizer, right the Dodgers. You know,
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: trust me as a Nats fan, and you know, if
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: you get the Dodgers in a five game series, you
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: got a chance you can't beat on a seven.
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, and if you just look what's happened
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: at the Cubs this last week. I look at some
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: of the teams we played, I'm like, there's no one
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: guy in that other dugout that's good enough to be
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: on this team, and they just beat us. So it's
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: like you kind of you have to roll with it.
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: But we do need to find like that that balance
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: and get into this thing, this this era where you know,
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: it's good, it's good for the league. If all the
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: teams are profitable at some level and not losing money,
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: and we have a little bit of competitiveness on the field.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: I think that's good to be good for baseball. And
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: you know, some of the modeling that we've worked out
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: internally is that you know, right now, players get about
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: forty eight percent of revenues in Major League Baseball. And
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: then and the model we're going to present that. You know,
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: I'm not I'm not part of the Major League Basketball,
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: but you're going to be. Are you on any of
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: these committees where you'll be sitting down now? In fact,
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: my brother is our owner representative, so he's he's much
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: closer to the league and talks to the connatural lot.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: But but my instinct says that, like we're going to
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: go from someplace where it's forty eight percent of the
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: revenues today to like fifty two percent of the revenues
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: in the future baseball, Right, Yeah, that's right. I like that.
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: I think you and I think the NFL about there
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: in the NHL, I think they are all just above
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: fifty percent. So what you'll see is like it's actually
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: more money to players, just in a different form than
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: the giant free agent contracts with hundreds of millions.
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: No, I mean this is look, I mean, I know
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: we're going to hear it's, you know, the Scott Boris
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: view of the world, right, you know, basically unlimited free market.
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: Great if that's the way it worked. But you know,
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: let me ask you this as a as an owner,
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: and for me, I'm going to call you relatively new.
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: I say relatively new, right if you if you've only
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: been an owner for about ten or fifteen years compared
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: to seventeen yeah, right, compared we have some people that
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: have been owners for you know, generations rmuch longer for sure,
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: and you were in the particularly in the finance world.
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: What's the what's the same about operating a sports franchise
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: and what is different as a you know, everybody says, well,
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: you got to operate it like a business now, but
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: a sports franchise, boy, it's complicated. Because you know, we
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: were discussing this before we started. Your fan base thinks
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: they own the team and unlike and only the Green
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: Bay Packers have a fan base that actually can say
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: they own a piece of the team. Although I'm sure
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: if you guys started selling shares you do pretty well.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: So what's the same and what's the big difference.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of the same is just trying
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: to run you say, run it like a business. It's like,
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: how what are we doing on ticket sales? Are we
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: selling every ticket that we can? Are the tickets price right?
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: Where are we with our corporate sponsors and how they
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: can contribute to the team in ways that we can't
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: go with other places for So it is very much
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: a business. And on the other side, you have these
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: opportunities to be completely irresponsible sometimes where you're like.
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: Okay, we're just one game out and if we win
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: our division, it's going to mean this, and so do
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: we go out and and and get that extra free
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: agent or or or or kind of get outside our
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: own discipline. So you always have those opportunities, And I
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: got to say, like, I don't think it's the craziest idea.
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: Sometimes it's just it doesn't always work out and then
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: you generally regret it.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: But we we keep it pretty tight ship. We have.
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: We really have a great team of people. There were
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: a lot of great people that were at the Cubs
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: when we bought the team, and we've supplemented that with
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: a bunch more and it's it's a very disciplined business.
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: And when we look at those opportunities to step outside
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: our disciplines and like the discipline, especially when it comes
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: to the baseball team itself, we think long and hard
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: about it.
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: What didn't you know that you were like, oh my god,
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: I wish i'd known this.
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: It's been a little while since since we bought the team,
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: and it kind of went through it. It's what you
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: don't see is the backside business side of all the teams,
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: and and you look at other teams and you see
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: how their run and you're like, gosh, I really I
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: wish I could give them some advice. I wish not
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: every team in every league is run with the same
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: sort of professionalism that we have. And that's why you
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: kind of see some of the variations of teams that
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: can make money or lose money and so on and
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: so forth.
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: So I'm doing this sports history podcast with Jayadande, and
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: we've done three deep dives so far, the Dodgers, the Steelers,
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: and the Warriors. And you know what all three have
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: in common is that their original owner was essentially the
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: local sports promoter. So like Art Rooney for the Steelers,
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: he was the guy that the NFL went to, hey,
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: do you want this franchise? Because he was the guy
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: you went to if you were bringing a boxing match
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: to Pittsburgh and you wanted to promote it, and he
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: was that guy. And the Warriors owner the first one
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: in San Francisco was sort of it was like a
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: nightclub owner. You know when I say that, he didn't
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: own a night club, but it was the equivalent of
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: where you were just can I bring in a marquee
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: name to bring in fannies in the seats so I
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: can sell a few extra concessions, like how much you know,
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: we've seen this transition from sort of the family business model,
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: right the small business owner model, to the twenty first
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: century business you know, acumen, Harvard Business School type of
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: mindsets and take baseball. Would you say eighty percent of
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: the teams are in this bucket now? Or you know
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: how many of the teams are still in the mom
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: and pops phase of operations?
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: Maybe you know, maybe half and half. I'd have to
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: like go through team by team and see where they're apposite.
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: It's definitely has a few things have changed in the
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: last twenty five years that have changed the way the
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: businesses are run. First of all, you've seen institutional money
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: kind of coming into some of these teams, you know,
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: these big of these big guy.
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: Do you have any private equity? Do you guys have
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: brought any in? Have you guys brought private equity in
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: or not?
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: We have like a wide range of limited partners that
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: we brought out at different times, Like we sold off
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: some of the team to renovate Wrigley Field, so that
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: a lot of that that was all privately funded, and
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: we did that through selling a little bit of equity.
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: But what's happened is like these as you bring in
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: that institutional money, they want to bring in that professional management.
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: And the second thing that you're saying is that as
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: teams need new stadiums, the city, county, state governments are
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: less and less inclined to finance those. And so that
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: I don't think that's a problem. But what it does
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: is it changed the mindsets of the team. Whether they
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: start saying like, Okay, well, if we're going to fund
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: our own stadium, we're going to want to own some
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: real estate around our stadium. We're going to want to
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: own all of our parking lots, We're going to want
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: to control that fan experience from a perimeter that's not
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: just the venue itself. And so that's why you're seeing
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: these kind of entertainment districts. And you know, we kind
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: of we built one around Wrigley that's been really successful,
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: and others you're doing that.
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: You tell me, I don't feel like Wrigleyville was a
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: thing until you guys kind of made it a thing.
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: You know, we really had that mindset of wanting to
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: control the neighborhood and control that fan experience for the better. Really,
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: you know, we're just we want to make sure our
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: fans are having a great experience when they come to
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: the ballpark. And I don't and I don't know what's
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: changed about sports specifically to make it like this, but
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: it's no longer just about the two and a half
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: hour game or that. You know, even for football, you know,
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: the football you have tail getting before the game, and
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: and for baseball you were starting to see it's like
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: people come down early to get something to eat, and
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: then they go to the game and then they're going
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: to go out maybe to a show. We're just go
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: to the bar and to have a few beers. Like
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: it's an all day experience. Regardless of how long the
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: game itself is, and so people are trying to like
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: make sure that that experience is positive for everybody.
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: Should baseball games be available for free? In Chicago? The
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: Chicago Cubs always be available on supposed free TV, and
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: should that be a philosophy of Major League Baseball?
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: I'm going to I'm going to shift a little bit
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: and say all team owners want their fans to be
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: able to see their games on TV. But the world
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: is such upheaval day, whether it's you know, the cutting
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: of the court on cable has happened so quickly and
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: so much shifted to these strips services that I think
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: that it's not just baseball, it's football. Is everybody's kind
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: of in the space of like, Okay, we were trying
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: to get our games out to be seen, but we're
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: also still trying to get paid for the games in
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: the old way that we were when we just went
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: to Comcast and they just gave it. You know, they
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: gave you a button.
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: Hey, we'll sell the ads. Well, we'll make it on
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: the back end. And I'm guessing media networks like, no,
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: maybe you guys can sell the ads well.
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: And the funny part is is that everybody was paying.
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: Everybody thought they were getting Cubs games for free when
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: they had their cable, but they weren't. They were paying
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: for it in their cable bill, and always just included.
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah Apple companies for years just passed along and you
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: didn't realize. And then when you disaggregate that bundle, you're like, well,
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: somebody's got to pay for this. You know, it was
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: always I joke. You know, I've made a lot of
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: money over the years on OPM, other people's money, right,
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: whether it's newsletters that were so expensive that it became
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: a business expense, so there was no individual that you
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: went to for a subscription. And you know this, a
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: B to B business is sometimes more stable than a
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: consumer facing business.
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. And I think what people are finding
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: out is they were paying more for their sports than
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: they thought. You know, if your if your cable bill
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: was one hundred and fifty dollars, I'm just making it
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: a number, and you're like, well, I bet I've been
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: in paying like two or three of that goes to sports,
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: and you're finding out, well, actually it was like twenty five.
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: And now if you want to get those same games,
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: you're gonna have to pay twenty five dollars a month
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: to have that, and so it's all it's all just
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: in flux, and I know that there's the bigger brains
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: in mind are thinking about it, and all sorts of
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: people outside in sports are concerned about it. But at
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: the end of the day, I think, you know, we're
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: just we're just trying to find out where people want to.
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: Have one dumb request. I'm a season ticket holder. Why
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: do I also have to spend extra money to watch
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: the games at home?
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good point.
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: You get here that because I always you know, it's
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: interesting what season ticket holders have always gotten at the
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: MLB Extra Innings package. Yeah, like that's always come with
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: the deal. But look, some of this was new, right.
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: The Nets were part of the of the group of
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: teams that all had to scramble to put together a
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: deal before the season started. So it's possible they'll stick
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: these things through. Well, let me let me close with this.
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: What's this If you don't win a division, If you
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: don't win the division this year is the season of failure?
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: If you don't get in the playoffs, is it a failure?
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: What's your what's your the goal is always win the
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: World Series. So I'm going it's but what's what's your
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: realistic what's a disappointment to you this year? Because baseball is.
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: Hard, you know, we kind of you're going back to
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: that baseball discipline and business discipline. We shoot to be
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: in the playoffs every single year, so if we're not
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: in the playoffs, that's one season to us. Yeah. And
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: when I look at our roster and I look down
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: the talent that we have, I feel like we have
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: an incredibly competitive team. Now we don't have a Dodgers
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: as far as like the payroll numbers, but when I
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: look at like the talent we have top to bottom.
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: If we can, if we can get some of these
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: injured guys back on and get everybody playing, get you
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: every ready to aggress back to their norm right, Uh,
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: they're there, have an average season. I think we have
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: an incredibly competitive team, which is kind of your sky's limit.
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: Have you like bugged your guys going why didn't we
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: sign Murakami?
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: But never mind? You know, no, No, I feel like
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: as as an owner, you have to like turn that
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: over to the baseball guys. And because if you get
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: too involved, you can't hold them accountable, right, Like if
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: you if you tell them who to get who we've.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: Seen other we've seen other owners, and they get really involved.
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: And then if it doesn't go well, especially at the
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: say started the first third of the season, then you
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: only have one person to play.
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: Right, That's exactly it. So I never want to be
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: the person that gets blamed. So I throw out ideas,
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: but I don't I don't like live and die by them.
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: Well, pre spoke, this is how much of your bandwidth
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: is on this?
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well a lot, I'd say a lot of it
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: at the moment, I'm sure until Yeah, like i'd say
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: like half of my time spent on free spoke for that.
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: At the moment, we're trying to get our product in
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: a way and place that we like and find new users.
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: Well, I hope you know, just keep reaching down to it.
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of great, sort of what I call
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: entrepreneurial local news sites that are really trying to fill
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: the gap, and that to me is you know, the
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: information ecosystem. What you're trying to do is something I
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: think we need. And there's a lot of decent bottom
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: up journalism. They just need a little awareness because Google
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: makes it hard. Google and Facebook made it at first
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: made it easy to be a local publisher, that made
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: it quite difficult. And if you could be in place
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: to help local because that's been the biggest thing that
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: is killed local publishers is how good rule is messed
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: with search and awareness. And this feels like an opportunity
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: for local news to get to get some you know,
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: to have a site that won't hide there or that
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: will only boost you. I mean, it feels like you
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: have to pay Google to get boosted. I'm not saying
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: that is how the business works, and I know they
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: would claim it isn't, but that's the way many of
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: these local news entrepreneurs. Yeah, that's the way they feel
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: like it works.
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it totally. It totally is how it works.
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: And so we're we're trying to combat that and and
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: really just informed people. So if you have if you
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: have sources that and that we're not crawling. You're not
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: saying to show up and free spokes, let us know
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: and make sure we get it added to our index.
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: Well, like I said, I love what the all sides
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: guys do. And uh and I know him pretty well
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: and he works really hard on that on that bias
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: rating system, and I know the advont stuff too. I
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: mean it's it's good metrics to you. So Todd Ricketts,
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: this was a pleasure to get to know you. And uh,
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: like I said, I love what you're trying to do
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: and I encourage people to check it out.
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: Great. Yeah, thanks for having mem m h m hm