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How to Be a More Productive Writer · If I'm Being Honest: Straight Talk About Book Publishing & Promotion

0:11
Sayde: All right, welcome to if I'm being honest, straight talk about book publishing and promotion.
0:17
Sayde: I'm your host, Sayde Walker.
0:19
Sayde: And I'm Joel Pitney.
0:21
Sayde: And this week we're gonna dive into something a little different for us, but we think that it'll be interesting.
0:27
Sayde: We think a lot of you will relate uh to what to this particular topic.
0:32
Sayde: You know, Joel and I were chatting recently about the writing process.
0:39
Sayde: And if you've listened to our podcast, you likely know Joel is a writer.
0:44
Sayde: Uh, he writes for a living.
0:45
Sayde: That's pretty much his full-time, his full-time gig.
0:47
Sayde: I like to write more as a hobby.
0:49
Sayde: And so between the two of us, we can relate to a lot of the authors that we work with.
0:54
Sayde: And one of the things that we were talking about was this idea of how to be a more productive writer.
1:02
Sayde: Not necessarily a better writer, but how to be a more productive writer.
1:08
Sayde: So we're gonna dive into that today and uh we will have some really cool tips, I think, for everyone that um will, you know, help help each of us no matter where we are in our writing journey.
1:20
Sayde: So before we get started and get into all of that, I would love to just kind of hear from you, Joel, about your writing background.
1:29
Sayde: It's pretty extensive.
1:31
Sayde: You've done you've done a lot of things over the last decade or more.
1:35
Sayde: So kind of give us some background on on your experience as a writer.
1:41
Joel: Yeah, so um, you know, I feel like I've been a writer my whole life in in one way or another.
1:46
Joel: Um, but I've been professionally a writer for roughly 20 years now in different capacities.
1:52
Joel: I started off uh writing in journalism.
1:55
Joel: I wrote for a spiritual magazine, uh doing kind of long-form explorative exploratory journalism in on spiritual and mind-body-spirit topics.
2:04
Joel: Um, and then more recently, I have done, I've gotten into ghostwriting books.
2:08
Joel: So I I write, I ghostwrite nonfiction books, which means that um people will hire me to to write their story um or to share their ideas or their framework, et cetera, et cetera.
2:19
Joel: These are people who may not be writers themselves, but they have really cool stories or ideas that are bookworthy.
2:25
Joel: And so so I've gotten a lot of experience to that.
2:27
Joel: I've I've done maybe seven or eight books now.
2:29
Joel: Um I think maybe I'm working in my eighth or ninth book as a ghostwriter.
2:33
Joel: So um, and a lot of those books uh are the traditionally published, um, some with small publishers, some with big publishers.
2:41
Joel: Um, and so I have a lot of experience in that regard.
2:45
Sayde: That's excellent.
2:46
Sayde: So, you know, when you are ghostwriting in particular, that is an avenue where you do have to be a productive writer, right?
2:54
Sayde: You're not like this is not a hobby.
2:56
Sayde: This is not your way of kind of unwinding at the end of the day and unleashing some creativity.
3:02
Sayde: You have a schedule to stick to, especially when you have a publishing deal and you're working with, you know, a timeline around that.
3:09
Sayde: So one of the things that we've talked a lot about, I've heard you say, is that one of your strengths is the fact that you are such a productive writer.
3:17
Sayde: And, you know, tell me a little bit about what you mean by that.
3:20
Joel: Well, yeah, so it's it's funny.
3:22
Joel: I always like to say that I'm a I'm a decent writer, but I'm I'm really productive.
3:26
Joel: That's kind of that's one of my superpowers.
3:28
Joel: And, you know, it's hard to judge the quality of someone's writing.
3:33
Joel: I know I know that I'm I'm I'm a good enough writer to be professionally published and to do this, and I've had a lot of a training experience, but I I've come to realize over the years that one of my superpowers is that I can churn out a lot of content really quickly.
3:45
Joel: I feel like I can get uh I can get to like an 80% draft really quickly.
3:49
Joel: Um, and the more I've talked to other writers or worked with other people, I've started to realize that that is kind of a superpower of mine.
3:56
Joel: So we thought it might be fun to unpack that a little bit.
3:58
Joel: Absolutely.
3:59
Joel: And there's pros and cons of that, by the way, right?
4:02
Joel: Because sometimes being a productive, fast writer means that, you know, there's maybe a lack of attention to detail or there's a certain artistry missing that could be there.
4:09
Joel: And those are those are uh areas of my writing that I'm trying to shore out.
4:14
Sayde: But it sounds like being a productive writer or some of these tips and tricks that you have for us that we're gonna go over today might help with writers who get stuck in that just in the process of writing, right?
4:26
Sayde: Like maybe they have a great idea, but they're struggling to get through the process.
4:32
Joel: Yes.
4:32
Joel: And I and I think this is particularly important when you're writing books.
4:35
Joel: And that's what this show is all about, right?
4:37
Joel: A book is it's it's massive.
4:39
Joel: It's like climbing a huge mountain because we're talking about 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 100,000 words, right?
4:47
Joel: We're talking about pages after page after page and can seem really, really overwhelming.
4:52
Joel: And it's easy to get full of self-doubt or lose your way or lose your focus, that kind of thing.
4:56
Joel: And so uh being productive, it's it's important to find ways to continue to be productive because that's how you make progress.
5:04
Joel: Little bits every day, right?
5:05
Joel: You can't, you can't eat an elephant more than one bit uh bite at a time, right?
5:10
Joel: Yes.
5:10
Joel: You've got to find a way to keep going.
5:12
Joel: And if you if you're able to keep your head down and keep moving and keep moving, keep moving slowly over time, you'll find, oh my goodness, I'm halfway done.
5:19
Joel: I just finished chapter seven of 14, right?
5:23
Sayde: And I'm assuming that these are not, you know, obviously these are skills that you have learned along the way over decades of writing.
5:29
Sayde: You probably didn't start out being a really productive writer.
5:33
Joel: No, I mean, you know, I I had some good role models growing up.
5:36
Joel: I mean, both my parents were were preachers and had to my mom in particular, she was the lead pastor at churches for most of my childhood, and she was preaching every Sunday.
5:48
Joel: And so she would just have to churn out a sermon over and over and over and over again.
5:51
Joel: So I guess I had a model in someone who could just crank out content and and hit deadlines.
5:57
Joel: That's awesome.
5:59
Sayde: All right, well, let's dive into some of these.
6:03
Joel: So uh just one thing I want to say, you know, Sayde and I had brainstormed a few things.
6:08
Joel: Well, how do you become a more productive writer?
6:10
Joel: And anybody who's listened to this podcast would can attest probably is used to the fact that uh we like to talk about philosophical things and practical things.
6:18
Joel: So a lot of this stuff is gonna be sort of like more mindset orientation type tools.
6:24
Joel: And then I have some actual practical exercises and tips that I that I like to use.
6:28
Sayde: Awesome.
6:29
Sayde: All right.
6:31
Sayde: Well, let's dive in to your first tip and probably, in my opinion, one of the most important, which is getting over the fear of writing badly.
6:42
Joel: So talk us through this.
6:43
Joel: This one's massive.
6:44
Joel: It's probably my most important thing.
6:46
Joel: Um I got this from a guy, uh, he was a screenwriting uh coach that I had in New York.
6:54
Joel: I took classes in screenwriting because I used to do dabble in a little bit of film and TV writing.
6:59
Joel: And I and I took a class from him, and he's the one who articulated this tip.
7:03
Joel: He said, one of the most important things that you have to do as a professional writer is get over the fear of writing badly, right?
7:09
Joel: Because what ends up happening is if you're not feeling it in a particular day, you don't feel that inspiration, uh, you're afraid that what you write isn't gonna be very good.
7:19
Joel: Maybe you don't have a clear direction about where you want to take a particular chapter or a vignette.
7:23
Joel: And because of that, you feel like it's not gonna come out, and so you end up not doing it.
7:28
Joel: Or maybe you sit down at your computer and you start typing away, and what's coming isn't very good, and you're full of self-doubt and you're overcorrecting and you're having a really time hard time making progress.
7:39
Joel: So um, this is a like a mantra that I've been telling to myself, and I feel like I've done a pretty good job of internalizing it over time, which is I'm not afraid to write badly.
7:49
Joel: I'm not gonna worry about that.
7:50
Joel: I just need to write, especially when we're talking about something long like a book.
7:54
Joel: I've got to put in my minutes, I gotta put in my hours, I gotta put in my, I gotta put in my paragraphs, I gotta put in my page counts, okay?
8:01
Joel: I gotta write every day.
8:02
Joel: I gotta sit down and I gotta just I just have to keep writing.
8:05
Joel: Just keep writing, just keep writing.
8:07
Joel: And it's kind of like uh, you know, I there's probably some good sports metaphor for someone who's maybe speed skating or something and and they start to fall over and and they correct themselves by leaning forward instead of holding back, right?
8:21
Joel: Kind of like when you're driving on snow and you start to skid, you're not supposed to hit the brakes, you're supposed to steer into the skid, right?
8:26
Joel: Right.
8:27
Joel: So if you start to feel off or you're the the way to do it is just keep leaning forward.
8:31
Joel: That's how you find your direction.
8:33
Sayde: And it almost sounds like like, you know, obviously you can never take the creativity out of writing because it's a creative process.
8:40
Sayde: But if you are thinking of it like having a goal that needs to be accomplished, having hours that you need to put in, words you need to get down, paragraphs you need to get down, just like any other job, you know, that almost kind of maybe um maybe turns on a different part of your brain that is like, I have to do this thing now.
9:00
Sayde: And um, I'm sure you've read, and I'm sure lots of people listening have read Bird by Bird by Anne Lamont, but she talks about this, right?
9:07
Sayde: Like getting over the fear of of um first drafts that are not good.
9:14
Sayde: She says it in a more crass way, which I won't, uh, which I won't quote, but this idea that that like your first draft is supposed to just be getting the words down on the paper and finding yourself along the way.
9:28
Joel: You can always go back and refine later.
9:30
Joel: And some people write differently.
9:32
Joel: I'm not the kind of guy, like I don't write a sentence and then rewrite it and then rewrite it, then rewrite it.
9:37
Joel: I tend to write a big chunk and then go back later.
9:40
Joel: Different people work differently, but I do find that that tends to get me into a flow state quicker.
9:46
Joel: So if I'm not in some kind of a flow state, if I'm not feeling the muse, if I just start writing and writing and writing and writing, I it I tend to kind of tap into it.
9:55
Joel: And then when I do go back, I find I often find that I don't need as much refinement as I might have been afraid I I I would need to.
10:03
Sayde: Yes, that was gonna be my next question.
10:05
Sayde: When you're when you're finding that you're not in that flow state, but you're writing anyway, and you're just getting words down, how often is that actually very usable content for you?
10:16
Joel: Probably more often than not.
10:17
Joel: Way more often than I would have anticipated in the moment.
10:19
Joel: Well, I and part for me, this was this was a struggle earlier on when I was first learning how to write professionally.
10:26
Joel: But um, these days I've I've just developed a lot of faith in that it's gonna kick in because I've been through that cycle so many times and I I don't listen to the inner critic and all that self-doubt as much as I used to.
10:42
Sayde: Right on.
10:43
Sayde: Right on.
10:43
Sayde: All right.
10:44
Sayde: So moving on then to your next tip, which is scheduling chunks of time for writing.
10:51
Sayde: And I can attest to this as you know, Joel's partner at Launch My Book.
10:56
Sayde: Uh, he has time blocked out on his calendar, maybe not every day, but definitely every week, which is just time to write.
11:03
Joel: Yeah, so this is another, I have to, this same screenwriting coach, he had a really interesting uh another, this is another piece of advice that he gave me at a philosophical level, and I've tried I've turned it into my own practical thing.
11:14
Joel: But he would say that you know you got your right brain and your left brain brain.
11:18
Joel: You got your conscious mind, your unconscious mind, right?
11:21
Joel: And your your conscious mind is the taskmaster, it's the one that's really good at organizing, it's the one that keeps your office clean, it's the one that makes sure that you know your calendar is correct and all that kind of stuff.
11:32
Joel: But it's not very creative.
11:33
Joel: And then you've got this unconscious mind, which is where all the all the cool creative artistic goodness comes from.
11:40
Joel: But that that's an extraordinary it's like an immature, petulant child.
11:44
Joel: When it comes to scheduling or anything practical or logical, you can't rely on it for anything.
11:48
Joel: And so uh the the screenwriting coach would he recommend that you use your conscious mind, that I is it right, Brian, um, to schedule and tame and support your unconscious mind.
12:02
Joel: So you take that, you take that sort of programming mind, that mind that can and and use it to to set us to create the right conditions for the other mind to thrive.
12:13
Joel: Right?
12:14
Joel: So for me, the way that works out is I've learned that usually I can own I need to be writing in three to four hour chunks.
12:23
Joel: That's kind of what it takes.
12:24
Joel: Now, I've gotten a little better over the years and I can do it in smaller chunks, but what I've learned is especially when I'm first starting a book, I need extended periods of time to allow myself to get into the topic.
12:36
Joel: I can't just dip in for 15 minutes and then go out, right?
12:39
Joel: Because you're kind of like turning on something and then turning it back off.
12:42
Joel: So what I do is I I just block out big chunks and I call them writing days.
12:48
Joel: As Sayde says, you know, I have writing days and then I have I have, you know, meeting days or contract days where I do other kind of busy work.
12:55
Joel: And so what I do is on the days when it's a writing day, that's all I focus on.
12:59
Joel: And I allow myself to not do meetings or practical stuff or anything during that period of time.
13:05
Joel: Um, and then I always like to, but I know I know I know how my mind works, and I think everybody's probably similar.
13:11
Joel: As you get into your flow, the the part of your voice that's like, oh my gosh, I've got to respond to this email or check and make sure that I've got my kid picked up from school, that gets stronger and stronger and more tempting to go with.
13:21
Joel: So I always feel like I have to reward that mind.
13:24
Joel: And I'll be like, all right, so if you write, okay, write with your head down for one hour, you get to have a five minute, you know, check your email and deal with practical stuff break.
13:33
Joel: Or, you know, and then if you can get to the end of this section, I'll let you go.
13:37
Joel: I'll let you go take a 20-minute walk and get a little exercise for the day.
13:42
Sayde: That was gonna be my next question is how do you handle distractions?
13:46
Sayde: Right.
13:46
Sayde: Because, you know, obviously you have a kid, you have a business, you have other things going on.
13:52
Sayde: We all do.
13:53
Sayde: And and also there's all of the distractions of just online, social media, the news, you know, it seems like it can be so easy to find lots of other things to do other than other than writing.
14:06
Sayde: So what you're saying is giving yourself those little rewards of yes, I will do that thing.
14:12
Sayde: I will kind of give in to whatever that other need is, but we're gonna write first.
14:17
Joel: Yeah, I mean it's the yeah, I would say there's that.
14:19
Joel: So I definitely allow myself to get distracted, but I try to, I try to, I try to just do it in in very punctuated times.
14:27
Joel: So it's like a cheat day.
14:28
Joel: You know, people who do exercises or diets, you get your cheat day.
14:31
Joel: So I allow myself to have these cheat moments with distraction.
14:34
Joel: And the other thing is that I don't get hung up on it because I know distraction, especially when you're working on a long-form piece of writing, distraction is just gonna be there.
14:42
Joel: It's gonna be your constant companion.
14:44
Joel: And if you're constantly getting mad at yourself or beating yourself up for getting distracted or trying to force yourself to do things, uh, it's gonna be counterproductive.
14:53
Joel: So I tend to take a more um bend, don't break approach.
14:57
Joel: I kind of allow the distraction to happen without it totally common during the process.
15:03
Joel: Um, I find that if I'm trying to fight with myself too much, I end up giving my distracted mind a little too much bandwidth and attention and it it ends up being counterproductive.
15:13
Joel: Excellent.
15:15
Joel: I think it's a long game.
15:17
Joel: You know what I mean?
15:18
Joel: Like if you have a day where you're 80% distracted, uh there's gonna be another day where you're only 20% distracted.
15:24
Joel: And you have to remember that.
15:25
Joel: Yeah.
15:25
Joel: And you gotta get through the distracted days to get to the focused days.
15:29
Sayde: For sure.
15:29
Sayde: And similarly to exercising or dieting or any of those other kind of parallels, right?
15:36
Sayde: Like you're never gonna get it perfect.
15:37
Sayde: It's never you're never gonna have a perfect day.
15:39
Sayde: You're never gonna have a perfect exercise or a day where you ate perfectly.
15:42
Sayde: So just taking that in strides and going, well, I'm I'm doing good enough, right?
15:47
Sayde: Or I'm I'm maybe I'm doing more than I did yesterday.
15:49
Sayde: So when you're in your flow and you you have a three to four hour chunk of time where you are writing, you, as you mentioned, you write nonfiction.
15:57
Sayde: So I imagine that there's a there's a portion of that time that's not actually writing.
16:04
Sayde: It's research or it's interviewing or it's so do you have specific um when you have a chunk of of four hours that you're working on your book, are you setting goals in terms of I'm gonna write 10,000 words today, or I'm gonna finish this chapter, or do you have tangible goals like that?
16:25
Sayde: Or is it a little bit more I have very concrete goals.
16:29
Joel: So, I mean, so first of all, um, I try to separate research and outlining from writing.
16:34
Joel: So I will usually do my research and outlining for a particular chapter or section, and I'll try to do that in its own time so that when I sit down to write, that's all I'm doing, is just writing and processing.
16:45
Joel: So there's that.
16:46
Joel: And then yeah, I always do little goals.
16:48
Joel: I love little goals.
16:49
Joel: So, like right now I'm doing a book, I'm I'm doing a book, and my goal is a chapter a week.
16:54
Joel: That's what I and so I'm like, all right, whatever it takes, I've got to generate a rough draft of this chapter every week, right?
17:01
Joel: Or of a chapter of this book every week.
17:04
Joel: That I know that that's my my goal.
17:06
Joel: Have I hit it perfectly?
17:07
Joel: Absolutely not.
17:08
Joel: But I'm close.
17:10
Joel: I'm close, and so I I that's how I do it.
17:13
Joel: And then sometimes if uh if I it's a if it's a very structured book, I'll make sub goals within that.
17:18
Joel: I'll be like, all right, well, if I'm gonna write a chapter a week, that means on my three writing days that I have this time, I need to make sure that I'm j let's say my chapter is 6,000 words, it's I have to make sure that I'm writing 2,000 words a day.
17:30
Joel: Or maybe the book is broken up into three sections and I need to make sure I write one section.
17:35
Joel: So I I try to break it up as much as I can because that the that gives me these little micro rewards, which helps me build self-confidence, which helps me with my own momentum.
17:44
Sayde: Yes, and it also helps you feel successful, right?
17:48
Sayde: When you when you make those goals.
17:49
Sayde: Um, I I like to write fiction, as you know, just as a hobby.
17:53
Sayde: Uh, I I used to love when they had National Novel Writing Month in November, and your goal was to write 50,000 words in the month of of November.
18:02
Sayde: And I I used to try it for years in high school, in early college, I was gonna do National Novel Writing Month.
18:08
Sayde: And then I would sit down on November 1st, which also happens to be my birthday, and I'd be like, I don't know how to do this.
18:13
Sayde: And you know, eventually would kind of uh it would, it would just sort of go away.
18:18
Sayde: But one day I was talking to a friend of mine who is also gonna do national novel writing month, and we realized if you take 50,000 words divided by 30, you need to write like it's like 1,660 words every day, right?
18:33
Sayde: It's just over 1,600 words.
18:34
Sayde: And so we created an outline, uh, each of us of our story.
18:39
Sayde: And for each point on that outline was one day of National Novel Writing Month where you had to write just over 1,600 words.
18:45
Sayde: And when I finally broke it up like that, I went, oh, okay.
18:49
Sayde: So if I had a point on my outline where something was going to happen, and maybe it was something really interesting and it was really easy to write that many words, or maybe it was kind of um a less, um, a less interesting point, or just kind of a filler point almost, I wouldn't let myself move on through the story to the next point of the outline until I had put down 1600 terrible words.
19:12
Sayde: But you got them down.
19:14
Sayde: And then by the end of the month, you had 50,000 words to work with.
19:16
Sayde: And it's true, like every day that you meet that goal, it starts to build momentum, I think, in your brain.
19:22
Sayde: That's like, oh yes, if I did this yesterday, I can definitely do this today.
19:26
Sayde: Much like absolutely.
19:27
Sayde: So those are some awesome practical tips.
19:32
Sayde: So let's talk a little bit about mindfulness.
19:35
Sayde: Because I know with you, it's not all in the practical, right?
19:39
Sayde: There is some, there's some mindfulness to your to your writing.
19:43
Sayde: So talk to me about that.
19:46
Joel: Yeah, I mean, a lot of people use different mindfulness techniques for different things, um, including creative pursuits like writing.
19:52
Joel: And so for me, what I have found is my favorite mindfulness practice is just a simple meditation.
19:58
Joel: Nothing's nothing special.
20:00
Joel: Just I I try to spend 20 or so minutes a day um sitting down and uh and letting my mind letting my and letting go of thought um and allowing myself to just focus on the present moment.
20:14
Joel: Um and a couple things uh happen there that are related to the writing process.
20:21
Joel: So the first thing is I feel like it does help me, it does give me some objectivity in relationship to my distracted mind.
20:27
Joel: So the more uh when I'm able to sit in meditation and not indulge in thought and just let the monkey mind, as they as they say, um, go, uh, I feel like I'm able to let the distracted mind of writing go.
20:42
Joel: So as I'm writing, if I'm if I feel like I'm getting caught up in something, I can let go in a similar way that I would in meditation.
20:49
Joel: Um so that that's one thing I found is a real benefit.
20:52
Joel: And then the other thing is that um, you know, when when meditation is is is at its best, I feel like I come to a place that I I describe as sort of like the thin line between the uncreated and the created, right?
21:05
Joel: So that whether you could think about that as the self, the uncreated self, and you know, the moment before thought emerges, and you know, the the joel emerges out of out of the universe or or nothingness, whatever your theology is or lack of theology is.
21:21
Joel: Um and there's a really interesting point that when I'm able to align my awareness with that, where I'm not where I'm not downstream caught up in a mind or a you know, a memory or a or an anxiety or something, where I'm able to just be fully present, and that's not all the time, I find that I align with the font of creativity.
21:42
Joel: So and I and I I get connected to this point where creativity just comes from.
21:47
Joel: And what ends up happening at that point is I start getting billions of ideas.
21:51
Joel: Like I get ideas about short stories and songs and books that I'm gonna write, and you know, problems that I've been trying to work out in some book that I'm currently Writing on, I see the solution.
22:01
Joel: I see everything clearly.
22:02
Joel: And I get it gets very, very generative.
22:04
Joel: And then the meditation practice at that point is not getting distracted by these awesome generative thoughts and just continuing to trust that any that if I stay in this place, I'll kind of tap into this creative potential.
22:17
Joel: And then when I get up, it'll all be there for me.
22:19
Joel: And I find that when I'm able to do that, it it does generate all kinds of cool ideas that I'm eventually able to tap into in the writing process.
22:28
Sayde: That's awesome.
22:29
Sayde: And you know, something that we haven't necessarily touched on is the fact that you are not a professionally trained writer, right?
22:38
Sayde: This is not, you didn't go that you don't have a literary degree or an English or whatever, MFA, whatever they they give out these days for writing.
22:47
Sayde: You know, so so it's interesting how this practice of meditation uh inspires your creativity, kind of works alongside your creativity because you know, that's that's been a part of your life also for as long as you've been a writer.
23:02
Sayde: I'm pretty sure that you've had this spiritual practice.
23:05
Sayde: Um, and so one of the things that, you know, we've talked about, and I I very much enjoy your writing.
23:11
Sayde: I love the books that you've ghostwritten.
23:13
Sayde: I think you're a fabulous writer.
23:15
Sayde: And you and one of the things that that you've said to me is that you don't get caught up in the weeds of writing perfectly, right?
23:27
Sayde: Like, does it sound good?
23:28
Sayde: Is it compelling?
23:29
Sayde: Is it interesting versus is this a perfectly crafted literary sentence?
23:35
Sayde: And so, you know, and that helps with productivity too, right?
23:39
Sayde: Like, so, you know, to let talk to me a little bit about how the fact that you don't have a professional background in writing helps you be more productive.
23:51
Joel: Yeah.
23:51
Joel: So I have a professional background in writing, but I don't have formal training in formal training.
23:54
Joel: So yeah, and so and and so this this is an I mean, you know, at this point, I would say I've I have quite a bit of experience as a professional writer, but I did not, I got a degree in environmental science.
24:05
Joel: I went to liberal arts school, so you know, I wrote a lot, but honestly, when I got my first professional writing job, I had to unlearn most of what I learned in college about writing.
24:14
Joel: Um I had good examples growing up for my parents.
24:17
Joel: They're both great writers and storytellers, and they always encourage that in me.
24:20
Joel: So I I had that.
24:22
Joel: And but but I think it's really helped me not get imposter syndrome because I think there's this thing, there's like, you know, people there's this assumption that you have to be a literary person.
24:33
Joel: You know, what short stories have you pu had published in literary magazines, or where did you get your literature degree, or did you participate in literary workshops?
24:42
Joel: And there's this sort sort of like orthodoxy.
24:45
Joel: Um, and you can see that in writing.
24:47
Joel: And I often find that kind of writing to be a little pretentious, honestly, and indulgent.
24:51
Joel: Um, this is just my style, though.
24:53
Joel: I have a different style than other people.
24:54
Joel: And so um, I feel like that's allowed me to not have as much imposter syndrome in a way.
24:59
Joel: Like, I don't feel like I have to make my writing sound a particular way.
25:06
Joel: All I care about is that it's compelling and clear.
25:08
Joel: That's it, that's that's all I care about, you know.
25:10
Joel: And when I'm working with a client and I'm trying to convey their story or convey their voice or convey the convey their message, I want to make sure that I'm doing as good a job to make that to communicate what that idea is as clearly and as compelling a way to the reader as possible.
25:24
Joel: That's what writing really is.
25:26
Joel: You take something in your head and you need to make sure it ends up in someone else's head, right?
25:30
Joel: So I think I think my lack of professional or not professional, but formal training probably has helped me be a little more like that than maybe other people are.
25:42
Joel: Um and that helps me be very productive because I don't get caught up in trying to make something sound somehow.
25:48
Joel: I just want it to, I just need to make sure it works.
25:52
Sayde: So you mentioned imposter syndrome, which I think is a thing that you know all writers suffer from to some degree, some, you know, certainly probably more than others.
26:01
Sayde: What's some advice that you might have for a writer on how to get over imposter syndrome?
26:10
Joel: Well, I mean, uh almost everything we've been talking about so far is advice on that topic.
26:15
Joel: But I think I think the main thing is um there is no such there there's no such thing as like a right being a writer.
26:28
Joel: I don't know if that that's kind of sounds weird, but like anyone can be a writer.
26:33
Joel: Anyone can.
26:34
Joel: Anyone can write something compelling, it doesn't matter about your background, you can figure it out.
26:37
Joel: And anyone can.
26:39
Joel: You it's just it's a matter of it's a matter of um working at it.
26:45
Joel: And there is no it's never too late, it's definitely never too late.
26:49
Joel: Um I've seen people start writing careers, you know, no, as as third, fourth careers, right?
26:56
Joel: Um so the so I I guess that's kind of an abstract way of saying it, but then the other thing is like imposter to what?
27:03
Joel: Like to who.
27:06
Joel: There is no they out there, right?
27:09
Joel: There aren't there it there just isn't.
27:11
Joel: It's you, it's you and you, and you and someone who's reading the what you're writing.
27:15
Joel: And if if that works, then that's all that matters.
27:18
Joel: Um I think most people who've been around long enough and have seen and observed what imposter syndrome is, probably know that it's just a mechanism of the mind.
27:29
Joel: It's not a real thing.
27:30
Joel: It's just a everybody has it, you know.
27:33
Joel: Extraordinary, you know, think of about a writer that you think has made it and has experienced all the accolades that you could possibly get.
27:40
Joel: Most of those people still struggle with imposter syndrome every day, right?
27:44
Joel: There's probably everybody, that's what just what the mind does, you know.
27:48
Joel: And so it's designed to make you feel that way sometimes.
27:52
Joel: And so the more I've learned that, the more I've gotten used to it and seen it as a pattern, the less it affects me.
27:58
Sayde: Interesting.
27:59
Sayde: Yeah.
28:00
Sayde: Okay, so you've talked about you've talked about how you write, you you know, you've talked about um breaking up chunks of time, getting over the fear of writing badly.
28:10
Sayde: You've shared with us your meditation practice, which helps with the creative process and also with, you know, um kind of not giving in to the distractions, but then also rewarding, you know, the distractions almost once you once you get some time spent, some time spent in your creative muse.
28:28
Sayde: So when do you know that it's good enough?
28:34
Joel: Well, that's interesting, right?
28:35
Joel: So um when do you know when it's good enough?
28:38
Joel: Well, you're never gonna know.
28:39
Joel: Uh that's part of it, is you have to be I feel like you have to get comfortable with never knowing for sure whether it's done.
28:49
Joel: Because for in some ways, being done is not possible.
28:54
Joel: Um there's two two little vignettes uh that I could share on that topic.
28:59
Joel: Um one of them is I'm writing a I'm working on a book right now, a not a ghostwriting book for someone who worked with a pretty big name celebrity.
29:12
Joel: And this is a creative artist.
29:14
Joel: This celebrity's, you know, and so they work in this area of creativity.
29:17
Joel: And the person I'm writing the book for, I can't, I can't divulge who any of these people are.
29:22
Joel: I'm sorry if it's gonna sound a little vague, but they they were they themselves were was also very successful artists themselves, and then worked with this sort of mega artist star.
29:34
Joel: And they told this story about how um they were they were collaborating with this artist on on something and and they really wanted it to be amazing.
29:43
Joel: They really, really, really, really wanted it to be amazing.
29:45
Joel: It had to be great.
29:46
Joel: They wanted it to be the best thing they've ever done.
29:48
Joel: And they were working over and over and over and over and over and over again trying to get it right, trying to get it right.
29:53
Joel: Because, you know, that's what an artist does, right?
29:55
Joel: You hammer it until it's amazing.
29:56
Joel: And their mentor, who the book is, you know, about, came into the room and and uh at one point walked up and said, Hey, you know what?
30:04
Joel: When when God walks into the room, you have to be able to recognize it.
30:09
Joel: And to what this meant to my client was look, sometimes sometimes you're there.
30:17
Joel: Sometimes you hit it.
30:18
Joel: Sometimes creative genius just lands and and you have to be able to recognize it and not torture it to death, not try to fix something that isn't broken.
30:28
Joel: Yeah, and so a lot of the creative process is finding that way.
30:31
Joel: And I I heard a vignette from Mary Oliver, the poet, um, recently, and I'm probably gonna botch the details of this, but generally speaking, it was something along the lines of she said that uh if you look at like her most popular poems that she ever wrote in terms of the ones that people liked the most, uh, most of them were the ones that she only wrote one draft of and didn't go back and tinker, which I think it speaks to a similar point.
30:56
Joel: So obviously, I'm not saying you shouldn't refine your work, obviously, but you also have to be able to um have res recognize the genius for what it is.
31:06
Joel: And all of us generate genius, right?
31:08
Joel: But we just do.
31:10
Joel: Um so that I think that's one that's one aspect of this.
31:14
Joel: And then another another vignette that I think is really interesting.
31:18
Joel: It came from I heard a friend of mine who is a writer shared with me this story um from Ann Patchett, who's you know the award-winning novelist.
31:26
Joel: She's amazing.
31:27
Joel: I'm not I don't read as much fiction, so I haven't actually read any of her books, but uh my wife loves them.
31:32
Joel: I know a lot of people love her work.
31:34
Joel: And she wrote um, she wrote about she she wrote this little thing about what it's like to try and write um a book.
31:45
Joel: And uh I'm gonna I I've got a quote here.
31:49
Joel: I'm gonna try and find it.
31:51
Joel: So, all right, so she it says here, as she tells it in an unwritten novel lies in her mind as quote, a thing of indescribable beauty, unpredictable in its patterns, piercing in its color, so wild and loyal in its nature that my love for this book and my faith in it as I track its lazy flight is the single perfect joy in my life.
32:14
Joel: It is the greatest novel in the history of literature, and I have thought it up, and all I have to do is put it down on paper, and then everyone can see this beauty that I see.
32:24
Joel: Right?
32:25
Joel: So that that's before she starts to write.
32:29
Joel: And then, as she tries to actually turn it into a book, she says, I reach into the air and I pluck that butterfly up.
32:37
Joel: I take it from the region of my head and I press it down on my desk, and there, with my own hand, I kill it.
32:44
Joel: It's not that I want to kill it, but it's the only way I can get something that is so three-dimensional onto the flat page.
32:53
Joel: Just to make sure the job is done.
32:55
Joel: I stick it into place with a pin.
32:57
Joel: Imagine running over a butterfly with an SUV.
33:00
Joel: Everything that was beautiful about this living thing, all the color, the light, and movement is gone.
33:05
Joel: What I'm left with is the dry husk of my friend, the broken body, chipped, dismantled, and poorly reassembled.
33:13
Joel: Dead.
33:14
Joel: That's the book.
33:16
Joel: So this is kind of like a long and extremely beautiful and insightful variation of perfect is the enemy of the good.
33:26
Joel: Um but I've I've dealt with this a lot in myself and also with clients I've worked with, and I know I've talked to hundreds of writers, and I think everybody struggles with this, right?
33:37
Joel: Because you have this idea of what you want this to be.
33:40
Joel: And what you end up finishing as a book will always pale in comparison to your to your extraordinary vision for what it would could be.
33:51
Joel: But that doesn't mean that doesn't mean it's not brilliant.
33:55
Sayde: Right.
33:55
Sayde: Exactly.
33:56
Sayde: And those two halves of the coin are so important, right?
33:59
Sayde: Recognizing that you have to kill the butterfly and also being able to recognize when when it's art, when it's good enough, when it's when you're there.
34:10
Sayde: Because you you will, you will experience both.
34:14
Joel: And especially with something as long as a book that often takes years, it's gonna be impossible for you to be objective by the end of this process.
34:23
Joel: You're not gonna know.
34:24
Joel: Every d every page is gonna look like a dead butterfly.
34:27
Joel: It's just that just gonna because it becomes so familiar to you and you've agonized over it.
34:31
Joel: So there's there's kind of like a a letting go and a pushing the bird out of the nest and having faith that it will fly kind of moment with your book.
34:40
Joel: Um, and finding finding your way there is impossible to codify.
34:45
Joel: Um, codify, sorry.
34:48
Joel: But um I find that thinking about all these things in metaphors and thinking about the process helps me, helps me to intuit better when the book it really is done or as done as it can be.
35:00
Sayde: Awesome.
35:01
Sayde: No, I think that's really great.
35:03
Sayde: I think this has been super helpful.
35:05
Sayde: Um, you know, we like I mentioned at the beginning, we talk about these kinds of things all the time.
35:09
Sayde: And we thought it might be interesting to come on here and and share them and and see if you know, if other folks found them helpful.
35:18
Sayde: So if you if you did find any of this helpful, you know, be sure to like our podcast, subscribe to it, wherever you listen to podcasts.
35:25
Sayde: We're on all of the all of the major channels.
35:28
Sayde: We're also over on YouTube.
35:29
Sayde: And leave us, leave us a rating, leave us a review.
35:32
Sayde: If you have topics that you'd like us to cover on this podcast, you know, we we generally talk a lot about book publishing, particular, particularly self-publishing, uh, book promotion and marketing and and kind of how to how to manage this world as an indie author.
35:50
Sayde: But, you know, today we're talking about writing and how to be a productive writer.
35:54
Sayde: So if you have topics you'd like us to cover, definitely reach out to us.
35:57
Sayde: You can you can find us, Joel, at launchmybook.com and Sayde at launchmybook.com.
36:01
Sayde: We'd love to hear from you.
36:02
Sayde: So thank you again for listening, and we'll see you next time.
36:06
Joel: Yeah, and thank you.
36:07
Joel: Uh go out there and keep writing badly.
36:09
Joel: I know that's what I'm gonna do today.