Latest / The You Project / #2174 Speaking vs. Communicating - Bobby Cappuccio

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#2174 Speaking vs. Communicating - Bobby Cappuccio · The You Project

0:01
Speaker 1: Good day, Teram. It's Bobby and Craig Anthony Harper. It's
0:05
Speaker 1: your favorite podcasts. Hope you will. Hope you're enjoying the week.
0:09
Speaker 1: Whenever you hear this, we're sliding towards the end of
0:12
Speaker 1: the week. It Thursday morning. It's eleven o'clock. Bobby and
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Speaker 1: I were due to start talking at ten thirty thirty
0:20
Speaker 1: minutes ago, but a few little melodramas happening on Planet Craig,
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Speaker 1: so we've been addressing to that, and Bobby's been coaching
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Speaker 1: me all the way from the other side of the state,
0:32
Speaker 1: from the other side of the world over there in
0:34
Speaker 1: the States, and we've resolved a few things and there
0:37
Speaker 1: are a few more to go, but that's not relevant now.
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Speaker 1: But thanks for kind of holding my virtual hand for
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Speaker 1: the last half hour. It's been helpful.
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Speaker 2: I'm glad. I'll just leave it at that. I'm glad.
0:52
Speaker 2: It's a tough situation.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, we've been talking about frustrating things that happen.
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Speaker 1: Praise the anyway. And it's funny because we are talking
1:03
Speaker 1: today about communication and the ins and outs and the
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Speaker 1: communication styles and understanding what works in different contexts and
1:14
Speaker 1: with different people and different organizations and different conversations and
1:20
Speaker 1: for different reasons. But a big part of what you
1:23
Speaker 1: and I have been chatting about in relation to my
1:26
Speaker 1: dad's kind of medical care for the last twenty minutes
1:31
Speaker 1: has been about let's say, low level communication or somewhat
1:37
Speaker 1: ineffective or non existent communication. But it is funny because
1:44
Speaker 1: how we interact with people, and I don't just mean talking,
1:47
Speaker 1: by the way, how we interact with people, how we communicate,
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Speaker 1: be that verbally or other is a constant factor for
1:58
Speaker 1: everyone in the world, unless you live by yourself on
2:01
Speaker 1: an island or on a farm with two puppies. But
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Speaker 1: for most of us regular humans, understanding others, communicating effectively
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Speaker 1: with others, leadership, solving problems, being part of a team, being,
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Speaker 1: having an extent of theory of mind, understanding how others think,
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Speaker 1: being able to do something with that, you know, you know,
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Speaker 1: staying out of the messiness of conflict and pain and
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Speaker 1: into office bullshit and all of that. Do you think
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Speaker 1: that good communicators, Bobby, Do you think it's mainly inherent ability?
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Speaker 1: Is it like an innate intelligence or is it a
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Speaker 1: skill that can be trained?
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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I think the short answer is yes, I'm
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Speaker 2: going to index towards the latter part of that. Communication
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Speaker 2: is absolutely a skill that can be cultivated and learned,
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Speaker 2: and you could divide those skills into two separate categories.
3:02
Speaker 2: You can divide them into doing skills and being skills.
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Speaker 2: So as an example, where let's say a doing skill
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Speaker 2: is I am listening to the emotional context underneath the
3:16
Speaker 2: word you are saying. I'm paying attention to voice inflection.
3:21
Speaker 2: I'm paying attention to when you change, like your pattern,
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Speaker 2: your speech, just abruptly shift your body language. I'm taking
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Speaker 2: a look at all of that. Those are very tough
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Speaker 2: skills to develop, but they're absolutely teachable. Being skills are
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Speaker 2: I happen to be a playful person, and I'm going
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Speaker 2: to bring playfulness into the conversation. That's a being skill.
3:48
Speaker 2: So I think when it comes to being skills, there
3:50
Speaker 2: are certain people that have a little bit of innate
3:56
Speaker 2: domains that allow them to connect or struggle to connect
4:01
Speaker 2: with people, but overall it's all teachable. Like today, I
4:03
Speaker 2: was given a seminar out of college, or at least
4:07
Speaker 2: I thought it was a seminar. I don't know what
4:09
Speaker 2: their interpretation of what I said was right, And the
4:14
Speaker 2: moderator was telling me before I went up that she's
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Speaker 2: terrified as speaking. It's like, how do you get it
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Speaker 2: in front of a room? I can't do that? And
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Speaker 2: she was like reading from a script behind a podium.
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Speaker 2: What's the answer. It's like, Okay, this is a six
4:26
Speaker 2: month ongoing conversation here you're asking, yes, here's a short answer, right,
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Speaker 2: what is most important to you in what you're trying
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Speaker 2: to convey? And how do I have as much fun
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Speaker 2: with it as I possibly can given the context of
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Speaker 2: the event and the professionalism that you know comes with
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Speaker 2: your role. And she says to me, well, I'm not
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Speaker 2: a fun person. Fun is not my thing. Okay, great
4:52
Speaker 2: enjoyment surely is. And then she goes on to say, well,
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Speaker 2: I'm fun with my friends, but nobody else. Well, okay,
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Speaker 2: so you're a fun but there are certain things that
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Speaker 2: restrict that the expression of it, and you know there
5:06
Speaker 2: are other things that facilitate it. So yeah, we all
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Speaker 2: have these natural abilities in personality traits, I would imagine,
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Speaker 2: But overall the answer is it is if you are
5:20
Speaker 2: committed to it, it is teachable.
5:24
Speaker 1: What about what about social and situational awareness? So you
5:30
Speaker 1: and I have been too many conferences, workshops, weekends, whatever.
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Speaker 1: And there are some very smart people with a lot
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Speaker 1: of information, a lot of ideas, a lot of research,
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Speaker 1: a lot of academic credibility, and they get up and
5:43
Speaker 1: if anything, they create more disconnection than connection with the audience.
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Speaker 1: So they're intellectually smart. Their knowledge is good, their database
5:52
Speaker 1: is good, their ability to recall is good, their credibility
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Speaker 1: and all the stuff. But they're super fucking boring, or
6:01
Speaker 1: they can't tell a story, or they can't read the room,
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Speaker 1: or they can't read nonverbal kind of feedback. So it's
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Speaker 1: not it's like good communication is for me. I think
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Speaker 1: it's a multitude of things. It's like, can you whether
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Speaker 1: or not it's it's one person at a cafe across
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Speaker 1: the table, or whether or not it's a room full
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Speaker 1: of people who haven't come to hear you talk about
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Speaker 1: you know whatever. It is communication, it's being able to
6:32
Speaker 1: because I think speaking is not good. Being good at
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Speaker 1: speaking is not being good at communicating most of the time.
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Speaker 2: Well, it is a form of communication, right, And here's
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Speaker 2: the thing I have. I had this epiphany, or at
6:48
Speaker 2: least I think it was an epiphany.
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Speaker 1: Let me just say, mate, I should correct it. I
6:55
Speaker 1: think you're right, it's not necessarily being a good speaker
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Speaker 1: is not necessarily the sign has been a good o
7:02
Speaker 1: GRIC community kind of yep, go and apologies.
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Speaker 2: I think this is the difference because I was thinking about,
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Speaker 2: even in my organization, what are all the domains that
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Speaker 2: we touch really, I mean there's healthcare, there's well being,
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Speaker 2: and then there's so many different subcategories and to try
7:23
Speaker 2: to explain, well, what do you guys do exactly? And
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Speaker 2: what makes something effective? Is it behavior change? Is it motivation?
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Speaker 2: Is it like you were talking about earlier? Is it
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Speaker 2: innate attributes? And all of those things are critical. And
7:37
Speaker 2: we can have multiple podcast episodes, but every transformation begins
7:42
Speaker 2: with a conversation. And I use conversation like, think about it.
7:47
Speaker 2: Think about anything that has ever been built, created, from
7:51
Speaker 2: the country you're living in right now to the podcast
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Speaker 2: you have. It all starts with conversations, and conversations could
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Speaker 2: be a conversation you're having with yourself in your head
8:03
Speaker 2: about intention. But the difference is great speakers have conversations.
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Speaker 2: There is an exchange. There truly is a dialogue because
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Speaker 2: if we can agree, can we agree that communicating is
8:21
Speaker 2: not just about words. There's so much more than words
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Speaker 2: in communication. Well, you can have a conversation in front
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Speaker 2: of the room, but then there are people that are
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Speaker 2: relaying information. Is that a conversation, No, they're communicating something,
8:36
Speaker 2: but it's landing flat because it's a monologue. There's not
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Speaker 2: this dynamic, energetic exchange. And I feel like, even before
8:47
Speaker 2: we got on the podcast, without getting into any of
8:51
Speaker 2: your situation, the power of the conversations that you were having.
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Speaker 2: Anything that is done and move far and co created,
9:02
Speaker 2: whether that is a tangible outcome or an intrinsic experience,
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Speaker 2: starts with a conversation. Yes, yes, so I think, wow,
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Speaker 2: we should all be pretty good at conversations, or at
9:14
Speaker 2: least have the intention to become better.
9:17
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I guess yeah. What is effective? What is ineffective?
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Speaker 1: What's working? What's creating the outcome we want? Because I'm
9:26
Speaker 1: having lots of reasonably complicated conversations at the minute with
9:34
Speaker 1: a raft of different healthcare specialists. Let's say that, so
9:39
Speaker 1: you're talking to you know, whether or not it's the
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Speaker 1: social worker or the doctor, or the nurse, or the
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Speaker 1: physiotherapist or the dietitian or the kidney specialist or the
9:48
Speaker 1: you know, the end of chronologist. It goes on and
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Speaker 1: on and on. So firstly, you've got to navigate that
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Speaker 1: kind of information and that area of expertise without sound
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Speaker 1: like a moron, without also sounding like a pain in
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Speaker 1: the ass, like I know more than you do, doctor,
10:06
Speaker 1: which I definitely don't. But then thirdly, you need to
10:09
Speaker 1: factor in the person behind the title, because some doctors
10:15
Speaker 1: they're like, hey, yeah, mate, what do you think? Let
10:17
Speaker 1: me know, like I'm you know, let's work together on this,
10:21
Speaker 1: and then others are like, you don't fucking know anything.
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Speaker 1: I'm a doctor, you're not a doctor. And then I
10:26
Speaker 1: need to figure out how do I work with that
10:28
Speaker 1: person because that is the person I'm working with at
10:31
Speaker 1: the moment, and telling him to get fucked is probably
10:35
Speaker 1: not It's probably reasonable, but it's probably not optimal, you know,
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Speaker 1: So that figuring out in real time because what is
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Speaker 1: effective communication with one person will not be for another.
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Speaker 1: So it's not like, Okay, to be an effective communicator,
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Speaker 1: you need to do this and this, and then I
10:54
Speaker 1: would say with whom because with those two blokes over there,
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Speaker 1: it's different, you know, with that thirteen year old with
11:03
Speaker 1: crappy self esteem. It's different the guy up there who's
11:07
Speaker 1: the lawyer. You know, I coach a really high level
11:12
Speaker 1: lawyer at the moment, obviously, that's all I can tell you.
11:14
Speaker 1: But he works right out there in the stratosphere of
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Speaker 1: law and he's amazing and I get on really well
11:21
Speaker 1: with him. But the conversations I have with him I
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Speaker 1: could not have with the other people that I coach.
11:31
Speaker 1: They would have a breakdown because he's he's this is
11:36
Speaker 1: where I can't really elaborate, but this is where our
11:39
Speaker 1: conversations need to be. And he's like, I want to
11:42
Speaker 1: get better, I want to learn, grow, evolve. Let's fucking
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Speaker 1: get it going. Don't fluff around, tell me, don't bullshit me.
11:49
Speaker 1: I'm like, right, oh, are you ready, put on your
11:51
Speaker 1: big boy pants. Let's fucking go. And he loves it.
11:54
Speaker 1: He thrives in that. But for another person or personality,
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Speaker 1: that'd be that a strophic from a communication point of view.
12:02
Speaker 1: So it's that awareness and in the moment flexibility for me. Mate.
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Speaker 2: That is why, because when I first started using the
12:14
Speaker 2: word conversation, I don't know why, I can't get this
12:16
Speaker 2: word out of my head. I didn't like it. I
12:19
Speaker 2: felt like no, it's not technical enough, it's not serious enough.
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Speaker 2: I go to a coffee shop and I have conversations.
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Speaker 2: You know, it's really about communication, it's really about coaching.
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Speaker 2: It's like, no, no, it's not. Conversations are very unique
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Speaker 2: and one there is an intention behind a conversation. You
12:39
Speaker 2: could just go chat to somebody. But when you're having
12:42
Speaker 2: a conversation, well, somebody walks up to you and goes,
12:44
Speaker 2: we need to have a conversation. It's like, okay, there's
12:47
Speaker 2: an intention here, let's sit down, let me be focused. Yes,
12:51
Speaker 2: But what there also is is this kind of like
12:57
Speaker 2: implicit partnership within that word. Like there's a dance and
13:06
Speaker 2: when you're dancing with someone, you need to follow them.
13:09
Speaker 2: You need to be very much in tuned to that
13:12
Speaker 2: person and where they're trying to go and how they're
13:17
Speaker 2: trying to get there, the level of skill, the tempo
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Speaker 2: they have. Otherwise you're both going to wind up face
13:23
Speaker 2: down on the dance floor, or at the very least
13:25
Speaker 2: you're not going to be a great pointner. And I
13:27
Speaker 2: think conversation implies that dance. So you know, with this
13:33
Speaker 2: one person, this is the direct approach that I can
13:37
Speaker 2: take and they're going to resonate with it, where somebody else, well,
13:42
Speaker 2: not so much. I think that serves people a lot
13:45
Speaker 2: better than categorization of well, I'm just very direct in
13:49
Speaker 2: all context, regardless of the person that you're communicating with, Well,
13:55
Speaker 2: how does that work. It's like, so, if you have
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Speaker 2: this rigid I idea about I communicate like this before
14:03
Speaker 2: you've even interacted with the person who you're trying to
14:06
Speaker 2: engage in a conversation. That's a problem in communication. It's
14:13
Speaker 2: a really bad problem because whenever you have a bias
14:16
Speaker 2: like that, you have this sense of identity, you'll try
14:19
Speaker 2: to defend it. So now you're not going to really
14:22
Speaker 2: be able to pick up cues and learn and grow.
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Speaker 2: And if conversations are so pervasively powerful in the absence
14:29
Speaker 2: of meaningful productive ones are a detriment to our society
14:34
Speaker 2: and our mental and physical wellbeing, and I think they are,
14:38
Speaker 2: that's a pretty dangerous position to be in.
14:43
Speaker 1: Speak a lot of wisdom there, grasshopper. I'm just thinking
14:45
Speaker 1: about the pros and cons of going into a conversation,
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Speaker 1: for example, conversation, negotiation, whatever it is. It could be
14:55
Speaker 1: just a real social thing, it could be a trying
14:58
Speaker 1: to help someone thin could be a much more serious
15:01
Speaker 1: professional thing. The pros and cons of having a plan
15:08
Speaker 1: now clearly whether or not it's just that I'm lazy
15:11
Speaker 1: or I perform better instinctively, let's hope it's that. But
15:16
Speaker 1: the times where I've gone into a one on one
15:20
Speaker 1: and I've tried to create a bit of a plan
15:23
Speaker 1: for the hour, I'm invariably worse. And I'm worse because
15:30
Speaker 1: I have all these things I think I've got to
15:32
Speaker 1: talk about and ask them, and I've got a little
15:34
Speaker 1: bit of a mental checklist in my head of point
15:37
Speaker 1: one two three four five, question one two three four five,
15:41
Speaker 1: and I'm so I'm so fucking caught up in where
15:44
Speaker 1: i am in the projected timeline of the conversations and
15:48
Speaker 1: the dot points and the questions. I'm not actually fucking present. Now.
15:52
Speaker 1: I have not done that many times in my life,
15:54
Speaker 1: but I used to think, you know what, Craig, You've
15:57
Speaker 1: just got to stop asking it. You've got to you've
15:59
Speaker 1: got to be more like, you've got to go in
16:01
Speaker 1: and you've got to have a tactical plan. And every
16:05
Speaker 1: time I've done that, it was fucking terrible because it
16:08
Speaker 1: takes me out of the moment and I'm not present,
16:11
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about the fucking questions.
16:15
Speaker 2: That is something that is reoccurring with me for a
16:19
Speaker 2: few reasons. I'll just call out one of them that
16:26
Speaker 2: I was struggling under burnout for a long time and
16:29
Speaker 2: couldn't get out of it, which is kind of interesting,
16:32
Speaker 2: which is why a big part of my work is
16:34
Speaker 2: dealing with burnout, because I know what that's like, and
16:38
Speaker 2: it's insidious, and most people just try to push harder,
16:41
Speaker 2: which makes the whole situation worse. And when I was
16:45
Speaker 2: struggling with burnout, there were certain I guess environmental dynamics
16:53
Speaker 2: that would make it a lot worse, and I started
16:57
Speaker 2: doubling down on over preparation. Like I would walk in,
17:01
Speaker 2: I would have every stat I would have every every quote,
17:05
Speaker 2: I would have every bullet point in the order of
17:10
Speaker 2: most the least important that I'm going to talk about. Okay,
17:13
Speaker 2: the timeframes this like you're talking about, and when I
17:17
Speaker 2: would show up and let's say somebody is doing a
17:21
Speaker 2: raffle as i'm coming in, or there's something in the event,
17:24
Speaker 2: and I had forty five minutes and now all of
17:26
Speaker 2: a sudden, I have thirty or I'm not. I started
17:30
Speaker 2: becoming quite performative and rigid and unable to read the room,
17:36
Speaker 2: and sometimes it didn't land. Because it's never about oh
17:40
Speaker 2: well he said that he quoted that statistic. It's about
17:44
Speaker 2: how did I feel? What was the story? There was
17:46
Speaker 2: just something about that speaker, and I feel like there
17:51
Speaker 2: is something to be said for intense preparation, but you
17:57
Speaker 2: have to be able to let it go. Oh so
18:01
Speaker 2: think about think about an actor who's preparing for a film.
18:06
Speaker 2: They're doing table reads. And if you've ever the only
18:09
Speaker 2: reason why I know what a table read is like
18:11
Speaker 2: is because my wife, you know, a filmmaker. They are brutal,
18:17
Speaker 2: Like I remember I walked into the house once and
18:20
Speaker 2: my wife was sitting there like nursing this single glass
18:24
Speaker 2: of wine she had for hours joined the whole table read,
18:28
Speaker 2: and she was pouring sweat because in monotone they're reading
18:33
Speaker 2: line by line by line, and it's just like when
18:36
Speaker 2: it was over, she just looked at me like she
18:40
Speaker 2: had run a marathon and she's like, I am so fried.
18:44
Speaker 2: They're gonna they're gonna go through every single line. But
18:47
Speaker 2: do you think that somebody who is in the middle
18:50
Speaker 2: of a major film has memorized ninety minutes of dialogue,
18:54
Speaker 2: like really, word for word, they don't do that. They
18:58
Speaker 2: let it go. So when when you have a script,
19:03
Speaker 2: let's say it's a conversation about I don't know this pen.
19:06
Speaker 2: I bought this pen, and you know you, you're like
19:10
Speaker 2: that pen shit, Like you're so pretentious, Like why can't
19:14
Speaker 2: you just use just a regular plastic pen like everybody
19:17
Speaker 2: else and me and you are in this scene and
19:18
Speaker 2: we're fighting. I'm going to go through in preparation, so
19:23
Speaker 2: many different Okay, what's an analogy where somebody would say
19:28
Speaker 2: something to me that's important to me and then they
19:32
Speaker 2: were ship all over it. Well, what's another example of
19:35
Speaker 2: when that would happen? So what would happen if I
19:38
Speaker 2: respond angrily? Or what if I was shut down because
19:42
Speaker 2: I felt judged? And like, what's all these different responses
19:46
Speaker 2: when I show up and the camera's rolling. Is it memorization? Yeah,
19:50
Speaker 2: I read through the script, but no, what comes out
19:53
Speaker 2: of my mouth in response to me listening to you
19:57
Speaker 2: not memorizing my queue is the only thing that can
20:00
Speaker 2: come out at that point because I have so many
20:02
Speaker 2: layers of context around saying what I'm going to say,
20:07
Speaker 2: and I make a choice in that moment based on
20:10
Speaker 2: what's being presented to me. And I feel like communication
20:14
Speaker 2: is like that, yeah, prepare, have your shit together, but
20:18
Speaker 2: you've got to let that go and be more with
20:20
Speaker 2: the people in the room than what you had planned
20:23
Speaker 2: to say or the person across the table, because sometimes
20:27
Speaker 2: you know, it could be a member of your family.
20:29
Speaker 2: You're gonna have a You're gonna have a script when
20:32
Speaker 2: somebody who you really care about says, hey, I got
20:34
Speaker 2: to talk to you. Yeah, how's that going to work?
20:37
Speaker 1: Yeah I am. Here's my now a locket. Here's my
20:41
Speaker 1: planning story, my planning catastrophe story. I so I had
20:53
Speaker 1: to do this is probably fifteen years ago, but I'd
20:56
Speaker 1: already been in corporate speaking for at least fifteen I
21:00
Speaker 1: don't know what I was forty or something, thirty five.
21:04
Speaker 1: Had a gig in the city nine till ten, one hour, keynote,
21:10
Speaker 1: bibdy bobbity boo. I knew where I was going, knew
21:13
Speaker 1: the building, knew the topic. I'd done a modicum of
21:18
Speaker 1: preparation by that, I mean seven minutes and had a
21:24
Speaker 1: chat with the organizer months before, which I do normally
21:31
Speaker 1: on video or back then it was phone, I guess.
21:35
Speaker 1: And when I talk to them, I just take notes
21:37
Speaker 1: about the group and the dynamics and the number of
21:40
Speaker 1: people and the company and the culture, and I try
21:42
Speaker 1: to get as much context so I can understand the
21:45
Speaker 1: group and who they are and what they need and
21:47
Speaker 1: bibd bobbdy boot. So I turn up and the lady
21:52
Speaker 1: I meet, it's like quarter to nine. I'm on at nine. Hey,
21:56
Speaker 1: as you know how it goes. Do you want a
21:57
Speaker 1: cup of tea? Do you want a cup of coffee?
21:59
Speaker 1: You need to see Dave. He's going to wire you up.
22:02
Speaker 1: You use a lapel mic? Yes, I use a lapel mic.
22:05
Speaker 1: The toilets are over there. We've got your whiteboard markers.
22:09
Speaker 1: Is there anything you need? D da da da? I go,
22:11
Speaker 1: just remind me, So it's nine till ten or it's no.
22:16
Speaker 1: I didn't say that. I said, so I'm on at nine,
22:18
Speaker 1: and I did. I wasn't sure if it was forty
22:20
Speaker 1: five or sixty. I said, so we kick off at nine.
22:24
Speaker 1: She goes, yep, you're first up at nine. And I go,
22:27
Speaker 1: what time am I done? She goes, well, lunch, So
22:30
Speaker 1: we're breaking at twelve thirty and I go inside I'm like,
22:36
Speaker 1: oh my god, and I go so I started, So
22:40
Speaker 1: I'm from nine till twelve thirty. She goes, yeah, that's
22:44
Speaker 1: that's good for you. And I'm like, ah, that's so good.
22:49
Speaker 1: So I've got eight minutes to prepare a three and
22:53
Speaker 1: a half hour workshop, and obviously three of those minutes
22:58
Speaker 1: are with Brian or Dave putting on the Lapelmarck and
23:02
Speaker 1: you know, going and having a nervous way and oh fuck,
23:05
Speaker 1: I Now I don't know how I got through it.
23:07
Speaker 1: But to this day, I don't know that I was
23:10
Speaker 1: completely ill equipped and ill prepared, but I somehow got
23:14
Speaker 1: through it.
23:16
Speaker 2: See, for me, that's a lot easier. What's really tough
23:20
Speaker 2: is like you've got an hour and then oh you've
23:23
Speaker 2: got thirty minutes. That's really rough. Like you walk in
23:28
Speaker 2: there thinking you have more time, and then something happens.
23:32
Speaker 2: It happens so often it's amazing, Like you're putting on
23:36
Speaker 2: this whole event. There was a lot of planning, and
23:38
Speaker 2: it's now I've had, you know those people with the
23:41
Speaker 2: cards like like you got five minutes, ten minutes?
23:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
23:46
Speaker 2: Halfway through my presentation, they got the times wrong and
23:49
Speaker 2: they flashed the wrong number. It's like, wait, I should
23:53
Speaker 2: have at least thirty more minutes. What do you mean?
23:55
Speaker 2: I got five minutes left? So it's kind of interesting
24:00
Speaker 2: I see it.
24:00
Speaker 1: Do you do you stop then? And do you talk
24:03
Speaker 1: to them mid Like, surely you don't just take that
24:06
Speaker 1: as gospel? Do you question it? Because I've had that
24:09
Speaker 1: where I go hang on, hang on? Have blokes holding
24:14
Speaker 1: up a card that says five minutes and then? Yeah?
24:18
Speaker 1: Most of the time, especially well you know, it's the
24:21
Speaker 1: time they get it right. But if they're holding up
24:23
Speaker 1: a card that seems wildly out of whack with where
24:27
Speaker 1: you think you're at in your timeline, Yeah, do you
24:30
Speaker 1: say anything? Do you stop your presentation and talk to them?
24:34
Speaker 1: Sometimes you just do you just finish in five minutes?
24:37
Speaker 2: Sometimes I get confused, like I don't know, Like sometimes
24:40
Speaker 2: I assume, wait, have I really stuffed this whole thing up?
24:44
Speaker 2: Am I clueless? I don't know why. My default is Okay, yeah,
24:49
Speaker 2: they're probably right. Maybe maybe I mess something up. It
24:53
Speaker 2: depends how much in my head I am versus how
24:56
Speaker 2: authentic I am and how much fun I'm having from
24:58
Speaker 2: having fun, I'll engaged.
25:01
Speaker 1: When we're talking with someone and we want to create
25:05
Speaker 1: a certain outcome in the conversation ethically and morally, like
25:11
Speaker 1: we and the outcome might be very altruistic, like we
25:15
Speaker 1: want them to be happier and calmer. You know, what's
25:18
Speaker 1: the line between influence, persuasion and manipulation. This is a
25:27
Speaker 1: hard question without notice, but I'm sure you influence persuasion
25:33
Speaker 1: manipulation and how wide do we open those doors? Because
25:39
Speaker 1: I feel like there's a bit of that in I
25:42
Speaker 1: try not to be manipulative, but if I'm being very honest,
25:47
Speaker 1: you know, even with my mum and dad, sometimes I'm
25:49
Speaker 1: manipulative because I want them to do something, but I
25:52
Speaker 1: know it's for their good. It's like it doesn't benefit me.
25:56
Speaker 1: So I might sell Mum or Dad a kind of
25:58
Speaker 1: a version of the truth which you'll get us where
26:02
Speaker 1: you know, I'm their medical power of attorney. I'm their kid, right,
26:05
Speaker 1: I just want the best thing. So tell us about
26:08
Speaker 1: that influenced persuasion manipulation.
26:10
Speaker 2: I love this question. See when you say that I'm manipulative,
26:16
Speaker 2: I consider that persuasion. What I consider manipulation is where
26:21
Speaker 2: I am going to manipulate you because I have an
26:25
Speaker 2: agenda where I want to get what I want at
26:33
Speaker 2: your expense, and I am going to be deceitful, and
26:39
Speaker 2: I am going to employ strategies and games with you
26:45
Speaker 2: in order to shift that circumstance in a way that
26:48
Speaker 2: favors me, not necessarily meaning I want to see you
26:52
Speaker 2: get hurt, but that's just not my agenda. I don't care.
26:56
Speaker 2: That to me is manipulation. On the other end of that,
27:00
Speaker 2: that is influence, And the definition of influence is the
27:04
Speaker 2: ability to positively affect right the behavior, character and development
27:15
Speaker 2: of someone or something. If you're talking about an entity
27:20
Speaker 2: that extends beyond an individual, like a school or any
27:24
Speaker 2: type of organization, a company, a department. I think influence
27:30
Speaker 2: is where you don't have any direct agenda other than
27:38
Speaker 2: the development and the good of the people who you
27:41
Speaker 2: are trying to influence, and you are employing strategies, whatever
27:46
Speaker 2: it is, stories tools, resources to facilitate that trajectory with
27:54
Speaker 2: trust in the people what they're going to do with
27:57
Speaker 2: that is the right thing to do. I feel like
28:00
Speaker 2: persuasion fall somewhere in the middle when I hear about
28:05
Speaker 2: like you and your parents, where I do have an agenda,
28:09
Speaker 2: but it's not necessarily my benefit. I kind of I
28:17
Speaker 2: know that if I rely on your autonomy to make
28:21
Speaker 2: this decision, it might result in harm. So it's either
28:25
Speaker 2: I have both of our best interests in mine win
28:28
Speaker 2: win like in a sales situation, or how a sales
28:33
Speaker 2: situation should be if you want repeat business and long
28:37
Speaker 2: term loyalty, or it's your benefit that I'm interested in
28:43
Speaker 2: and I am willing to sacrifice autonomy to kind of
28:48
Speaker 2: nudge you in a certain direction.
28:51
Speaker 1: So are you saying that there's no kind of manipulation
28:55
Speaker 1: it's all bad?
28:58
Speaker 2: Well, my definition of manipulation, yeah, right, So the whole
29:02
Speaker 2: point of manipulation is it's something that I don't have
29:07
Speaker 2: you in mind per se, and I have out own
29:12
Speaker 2: intention front and center.
29:14
Speaker 1: I think about it no matter.
29:16
Speaker 2: Where you sat in that Yeah right.
29:18
Speaker 1: I'm just thinking about friends of mine that have got
29:20
Speaker 1: kids and had kids, or have now got older kids,
29:26
Speaker 1: or people with younger kids. But where I know they're
29:28
Speaker 1: manipulating their kids, but the intention is good, right, They're
29:33
Speaker 1: not trying to hurt their kids, They're trying to help
29:35
Speaker 1: their kids. But I'm looking at them like that's complete manipulation,
29:38
Speaker 1: and they'll look at me and go, I know, ohyah,
29:41
Speaker 1: you know you know, that's like kind of not true
29:45
Speaker 1: and somewhat manipulative. They're like, I'm aware, I'm like, okay,
29:48
Speaker 1: just so weakly on it, but.
29:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess so. I mean an example of manipulation
29:57
Speaker 2: for me, it would be, Okay, you need to get
30:00
Speaker 2: to bed early because it's Christmas Eve and Santa is coming.
30:05
Speaker 2: Now Santa comes and you're awake, he's gonna leave. Yes,
30:10
Speaker 2: Santa doesn't interact with kids, so that is one hundred
30:15
Speaker 2: true by the way, going, So I just lied to
30:19
Speaker 2: my kids about some entity flying around the world who's
30:24
Speaker 2: incredible at time management and reindeer training. Well done there,
30:29
Speaker 2: highly skilled and building toys. Yeah, well that's the Alps.
30:35
Speaker 2: Santa get sorry, an army of elves doing that.
30:39
Speaker 1: I need to do it a fresher. Yeah.
30:41
Speaker 2: I just lied to my kid for my own best
30:44
Speaker 2: interest because I'd rather have that kid in bed, right,
30:47
Speaker 2: Maybe I want some peace and quiet. Is that malicious?
30:52
Speaker 1: No?
30:53
Speaker 2: And in doing that, I'm entertaining something that brings that
30:56
Speaker 2: kid excitement enjoy I don't think that's necessary, really bad,
31:01
Speaker 2: but I did have my best interest in mine and
31:04
Speaker 2: I did like employed to see. There's no such thing
31:08
Speaker 2: as Santa Claus. So I feel like, what did you
31:15
Speaker 2: not have this conversation?
31:18
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what. My mum and dad have got
31:20
Speaker 1: some fucking explaining to do.
31:22
Speaker 2: Craig, we talked about this in twenty fifteen, and I
31:27
Speaker 2: know it was very emotional. You probably blocked it out.
31:30
Speaker 2: There was a lot of tears. I felt bad for
31:32
Speaker 2: bringing it up, but I hate to revisit this.
31:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, I blocked it out. Yeah. Do you think social
31:41
Speaker 1: media is helping us become better or worse communicators? Obviously
31:44
Speaker 1: helping is not associated with worse, but or is it
31:48
Speaker 1: just a different kind of communication? Like mate, and I think.
31:51
Speaker 2: It's I think it's it's worse. I'm biased there. I
31:54
Speaker 2: think the way people are learning to communicate is abysmal.
31:58
Speaker 2: I think social media is filled with manipulation. And what's
32:03
Speaker 2: really dangerous is you don't know what's true and what's manipulation.
32:08
Speaker 2: You can't tell the difference in sincerity and complete lies
32:12
Speaker 2: with deep fakes. We react to things that we know
32:17
Speaker 2: are probably fake as if they're real, which is a
32:21
Speaker 2: very interesting phenomenon, don't get me wrong. Like, I'm on
32:24
Speaker 2: LinkedIn because you have really great conversations there and there
32:28
Speaker 2: is an exchange. There's a lot of persuasion going on.
32:31
Speaker 2: I don't necessarily think persuasion is wrong. I think it's
32:35
Speaker 2: the context and the intention and the type of relationship
32:38
Speaker 2: you have. There's not a lot of Is there influence probably?
32:48
Speaker 2: I think overall, if you're looking at net effect, I
32:51
Speaker 2: think we're in a lot of trouble with social media.
32:55
Speaker 2: There is. I mean, just if you're listening to this
32:58
Speaker 2: right now, when this episode's over, pick up your phone
33:03
Speaker 2: or whatever device you have a social media on, open
33:06
Speaker 2: up any social media platform and pick any conversation about
33:11
Speaker 2: anything and read the majority of comments. Is their curiosity?
33:17
Speaker 2: Is their empathy? Is there? Hey? You know, here's my perspective.
33:23
Speaker 2: But I want to deepen my understanding of your perspective.
33:27
Speaker 2: I want to suspend judgment for a while and see
33:32
Speaker 2: what those ratios are. It's shocking.
33:37
Speaker 1: You know what makes me laugh when you say, if
33:40
Speaker 1: you're listening to this right now, literally one hundred percent
33:44
Speaker 1: of people are listening to it was stupid. There's there's
33:49
Speaker 1: no one hearing that sentence that is not listening. So
33:54
Speaker 1: sit sell True City Sales some time, and guy, how
33:57
Speaker 1: you listen up?
34:01
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've done the same thing, and later I go,
34:04
Speaker 3: why do I say that? Of course they're fucking listening.
34:07
Speaker 3: If they weren't listening, they wouldn't hear what I said.
34:11
Speaker 3: So it's a completely renumberedt sentence.
34:14
Speaker 2: But it's it's kind of like the phrase, so listeners
34:17
Speaker 2: could say that, or you who are now listening, but
34:20
Speaker 2: if you're listening to this, yeah, that's kind of what
34:22
Speaker 2: I mean. I know you're listening to this, or maybe
34:24
Speaker 2: they're just tuned us out at this point.
34:28
Speaker 1: Amazing that in a podcast around communication, we've just capitulated
34:34
Speaker 1: to that in the last minute. But anyway, you know,
34:37
Speaker 1: you learn, you grow.
34:39
Speaker 2: I'm all work in progress. I can't speak for you.
34:43
Speaker 1: Bobby Capucco is on LinkedIn, where he has allegedly grown
34:48
Speaker 1: up conversations with other grown ups go to allegedly. He
34:55
Speaker 1: is also can be found out Bobby Capuccio dot com.
35:02
Speaker 1: And is there anywhere else the podcasts in the cupboard
35:06
Speaker 1: for the moment, but it might make a reappearance. Anything
35:10
Speaker 1: else that we need website LinkedIn?
35:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, for now, the self help antidote dot com. I'm
35:14
Speaker 2: actually thinking about going in a different direction. There's something
35:17
Speaker 2: about that whole self help dot com that it's creating
35:21
Speaker 2: a little bit of ambivalence, but that's that's no one
35:24
Speaker 2: else's concern. I don't need to drink.
35:25
Speaker 1: Advised, adapt, overcome, survive, thrive.
35:28
Speaker 2: Bro, You you me, we're the variables we've got to keep.
35:32
Speaker 1: We've got to keep our head above water, all right, mate,
35:35
Speaker 1: Appreciate you. You're the best. Thanks for the coaching and
35:39
Speaker 1: the encouragement around the podcast. We'll say goodbye Affair, but
35:43
Speaker 1: now thanks again, buddy
35:46
Speaker 2: Thanks everybody, Bye bye,