Latest / Scalability School / How A Single Pop-up Change Increased Opt-ins and Doubled Orders

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How A Single Pop-up Change Increased Opt-ins and Doubled Orders · Scalability School

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  brands just have really bad popups.
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  You know, the past couple of years,
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  they're kind of becoming like a cool
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  thing again, but for so long, I think
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  they're just ignored and it just
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  felt like something that was never
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  cohesive to the site.
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  And so it just feels like they're
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  actually being taken seriously.
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  And there's been a lot
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  of players into the space.
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  And so yeah, I'm here for it.
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  If I'm pulling levers, I get into a
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  client's email account and like the
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  first couple of things that I can do is
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  either send more emails, make
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  the emails look prettier.
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  I can fix the pop-up or I can go and
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  start messing with flows.
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  Like I'm sure it depends by brand, but
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  like, do you have any
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  examples of like simple changes that you
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  made to the pop-up or any
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  changes that you made that led to a
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  pretty big impact for opt-in rights
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  and probably revenues or results?
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  Pop-up is like the lowest lift, highest
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  impact place that we can touch.
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  It's always a part of our initial plans
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  for how we help our clients grow.
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  You know, developing an email takes time,
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  especially when you're first
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  meeting a client and getting to know
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  their voice and everything.
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  But we can probably nail like 20 words of
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  coffee on a pop-up pretty quickly.
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  But like just last week, we had a client
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  where it was, it was as simple
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  as just making a pop-up a full screen.
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  It was a, a white box variant versus a
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  full screen variant, five and a half
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  percent to 8.3% same AOV, double orders
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  and double the conversion rate.
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  All these inbox providers and primarily
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  Google, Google's probably
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  going to make up 60%
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  of your list, maybe 70%.
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  Um, they don't tell you what they factor
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  into for deliverability.
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  And so you're kind of always making some
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  assumptions that people always
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  talk about like an image to text ratio.
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  I think 60, 40 people recommend, but a
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  few stuff, text into your emails,
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  they're likely going to
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  inbox a little better.
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  And that's, um, there, I mean, there's
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  softwares that are set up around
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  this, uh, are just injecting text into
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  your emails to help you, uh,
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  inbox a little bit.
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  Yeah.
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  Would you trust like a one
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  hour view based attribution?
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  If it's Snapchat, I don't trust anything.
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  Snapchat says meta click based.
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  I started to get a little bit more
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  trustworthy, but, um, there's a lot
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  of nuance there too.
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  So anyways, not to be real.
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  And now let's take a listen to the
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  scalability school podcast.
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  All right.
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  Welcome to episode nine of the
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  scalability school podcast.
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  Brad and I are here with Jacob Sappington
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  email SMS retention legend.
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  And he's going to talk to us today about
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  how these tactics or how we can use
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  tactics on these channels, uh, to
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  actually make money today, Jacob.
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  Welcome to the show.
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  Yeah.
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  Thanks for having me guys.
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  It's my first podcast in a while.
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  So, uh, it's good to be back.
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  Yeah.
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  Well, we, uh, we kicked Zach off in
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  exchange, so we're, we're much
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  happier for you to be
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  here than, than him.
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  Yeah.
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  Off the Island.
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  Yeah.
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  Off the Island.
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  Yeah.
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  He had too many Twitter followers.
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  So where does it now it's called the
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  losers and the econ
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  and Brad and I hosted.
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  Yeah.
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  Um, the, all right.
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  So, you know, there's a ton of things
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  that we can get into today.
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  I think obviously everybody's here to
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  like, what can we do in
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  retention and SMS better?
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  Um, I think there's a lot of it that you,
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  there's a lot of hype and
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  there's a lot of ups and downs.
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  Brad, there's some like stuff that you
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  wanted to get into right away in
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  terms of hot or not, essentially.
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  You want to, you want
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  to kick it off with that?
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  Yeah.
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  I don't, I don't know if we're going to
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  exactly go one by one through this, but
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  I think it'll, uh, if we hit some like
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  overrated and underrated discussion
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  points, I think that can push us into, we
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  can take them and go deeper.
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  So I'll give you the floor to decide if
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  you want to expand on any of these things
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  or not, but I'll just, I'll just kind of
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  list some things and you let me know how
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  you're feeling.
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  Um, all right, let's go.
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  All right.
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  Pop up software, um, or I did underrated.
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  I love Clavier software.
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  It's including your plan.
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  So I would say, uh, the right ones are
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  appropriately rated and there's
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  a lot that are overrated as well.
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  Okay.
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  Cool.
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  So we don't, you don't have
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  to mention specific providers.
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  I know you're a big, you're a big fan of
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  Clavier for lots of reasons.
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  That was actually something I wanted to
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  talk about later is like, I feel like
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  people are perpetually confused about how
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  Clavier bills and I feel like I see you
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  on Twitter, I'm explaining it to
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  everybody all the
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  time we could save that.
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  Okay.
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  So I guess let's, let's do, let's do is a
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  sub bullet point of popups in general
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  that like, what are people missing with,
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  with popups that makes them not as
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  effective as they otherwise should be.
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  I think for the most part,
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  Branches have really bad popups.
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  I think, you know, the past couple of
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  years through amped and through
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  Alia and through all these other ones,
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  like they're kind of becoming like a
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  cool thing again, but for so long, I
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  think they were just ignored and it just
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  felt like something that was never
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  cohesive to the site.
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  And so it just feels like they're
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  actually being taken seriously.
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  And there's been a lot
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  of players into the space.
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  And so, yeah, I'm here for it.
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  I love it.
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  I want to see, you know,
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  more people in our space.
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  Do you think that the software is the
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  thing that like, is it, is it the
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  software that drives the impact like a,
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  like an AMP to Oranalia or is it the
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  copywriting, is it the offer?
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  Is it some combination of those things?
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  I'm sure it's a combination, but like,
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  how would you wait
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  maybe each of those things?
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  We always look for three main tactics.
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  So we think about the offer.
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  I think I could have a great offer and a
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  terrible looking pop-up and I could rip
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  options.
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  Um, I think we think about the build, how
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  you functionally put it together matters
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  a lot.
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  And then the third lever
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  that we think about is creative.
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  So headlines, um, you know, you know,
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  assets that you use for it, those are
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  important, but like on mobile, we prefer
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  things to be very direct, not a lot of
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  creative involved in it.
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  And so it's, it's on there, but it's,
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  it's third for a reason.
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  I think the software
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  can make a difference.
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  But what I struggle with with different
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  software vendors is for the most part,
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  they have the same tech.
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  What I really struggle with is that, uh,
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  you know, how someone defines an
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  impression or who they're defining as an
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  impression or as a conversion.
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  None of us just know.
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  So, um, you know, maybe, you know, back
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  when AMP first came out, like, uh, I
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  always had like, we, we still use them
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  because we would like, uh, fact check,
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  um, email subscribes in Clavio as a
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  source of truth to make sure that
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  everything was, um, uh, as an expected,
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  like, um, you know, you don't just like
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  clone a pop-up and
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  double your opt-in rate.
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  And so I think that the.
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  Biggest confusing point that's still
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  confusing for me for a lot of sources is
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  just how do you actually define that?
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  Um, and trying to get like an Apple
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  samples comparison to, to traffic.
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  That's the biggest challenge.
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  So if we're talking about, let's keep
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  going on the pop-up thing.
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  Do you fire pop-ups on landing pages
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  versus just the main site or do you
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  fire them on listicles and
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  not just shopable landers?
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  Like what's your thoughts on that?
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  Yep.
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  Um, a lot of brands push the merger with
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  their traffic to those LPs.
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  I want to capture traffic there.
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  It's one of the main ways that we've, uh,
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  been able to grow this
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  growth for, um, some of our clients.
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  The thing is you just have to make sure
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  that it's relevant to whatever
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  content you have on the shop or the LP.
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  Like one of the worst things you could do
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  is have a BOGO on your shoppable
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  because you're being really aggressive
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  with some acquisition offer.
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  And then your pop-up offers 10% off.
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  And so you're
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  immediately adding confusion.
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  You're immediately adding friction.
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  Someone thinks can I
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  combine BOGO on 10% off?
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  Um, it's just like
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  really weird messaging there.
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  So, you know, maybe, maybe listicles are,
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  uh, something that's even
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  like less offer incentivized.
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  Maybe it's, um, something, you know,
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  like, I get maybe a guide of some
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  sorts or, you know, some, some sort of
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  content that resonates with what
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  they're actually pushing on the listicle,
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  but we want the popups on there.
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  We don't, you know, there's always this
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  expectation of some level of bounce
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  rate increase from adding a pop-up.
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  But the, the, the thought process that we
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  have is that the LTV of an email
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  subscriber is higher than the LTV of a
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  non-email subscriber.
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  And so my ability to say in front of them
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  and the cheaper method than
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  meta, um, is really important.
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  And so, uh, yeah, we still want them on
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  those places as well.
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  What do you expect for like good pop-up
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  rates, like our collection rate?
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  We see a lot of
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  brands come to us like 3%.
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  Um, we've had some brands
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  that we've been able to rip 20%.
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  Um, and I think it really just comes down
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  to the traffic that they're driving.
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  We've had brands we've
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  struggled to get to 6% too.
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  And so a lot of times those are brands
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  that are like, have like really
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  heavy organic presences as well.
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  And so the reason they're coming on site
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  is not the same reason.
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  You know, if you're running an ad, um,
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  and someone's interested in buying
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  today and you're running an offer driven
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  pop-up, there's probably a pretty high
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  likelihood that they're interested.
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  But if someone's coming to you from SEO,
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  from organic social, the reason
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  that they're there is not to shop likely.
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  Um, and so those are the
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  times like brands like that.
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  We've had brands who had like really
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  heavy organic presences and we've just
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  had to separate that traffic out or show
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  them different pop-ups relative
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  to why they're on the site.
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  That's really interesting.
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  There's, I would love to have like some
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  specific examples of pop-up changes.
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  So I would say, I'm curious, like if you,
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  if you broke things down into, we're very
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  heavily deviated off of this overrated
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  under-rated and I'm okay with it.
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  Cause this is really,
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  this is really interesting.
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  Like focusing on, um, pop-ups, I think
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  it'd be interesting to know like where
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  pop-ups generally speaking, whether it's
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  the software or not, um, fit into like,
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  if I'm pulling levers, I get into a
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  client's email account and like the first
• 1:08:26
  couple of things that I can do is either
• 1:08:28
  send more emails, make the emails look
• 1:08:30
  prettier, I can fix the pop-up or I can
• 1:08:33
  go and start messing with flows.
• 1:08:35
  Like I'm sure it depends by brand, but
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  like, let's, let's say that it is the,
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  the pop-up and maybe you disagree with
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  that, but like, do you have any examples
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  of like massive changes or like simple
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  changes that you made to the pop-up or
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  any changes that you made that led to a
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  pretty big impact for opt-in rates and
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  probably revenue as a result.
• 1:08:53
  Yep.
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  Yep.
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  Pop-up is like the lowest lift highest
• 1:08:56
  impact place that we can touch.
• 1:08:58
  It's always a part of our initial plans
• 1:09:00
  for how we help our clients grow.
• 1:09:02
  You know, developing an email takes time,
• 1:09:04
  especially when you're first media
• 1:09:06
  client and getting to know their voice
• 1:09:07
  and everything, but we can probably
• 1:09:09
  nail like 20 words of copy
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  on a pop-up pretty quickly.
• 1:09:11
  And we've had clients who, we've had
• 1:09:14
  clients who came on for paid and not
• 1:09:15
  email, and we've seen the pop-up and
• 1:09:17
  said, that's actually problematic.
• 1:09:18
  You're, you're gonna, um, prevent, you
• 1:09:21
  know, put a roadblock towards paid
• 1:09:23
  social, having an impact as well.
• 1:09:24
  And so we've done free pop-ups for
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  clients like that before in the past,
• 1:09:27
  just to not, you know, make
• 1:09:29
  it harder for our paid team.
• 1:09:31
  But like just last week, we had a client
• 1:09:32
  where it was, it was as simple as just
• 1:09:34
  making a pop-up a full screen.
• 1:09:35
  It was a, a light box variant versus a
• 1:09:38
  full screen variant, five and a half
• 1:09:39
  percent to 8.3%.
• 1:09:41
  Um, double the orders, double the, um,
• 1:09:45
  let me think, same AOV double orders
• 1:09:46
  and double the conversion rate.
• 1:09:48
  That's pretty, I mean, it's interesting.
• 1:09:50
  You would say, because I feel like a lot
• 1:09:52
  of people come in and looking at flows
• 1:09:53
  as the first place that they're, I mean,
• 1:09:55
  obviously I think that's where a lot of
• 1:09:56
  people go, um, and where a lot of other
• 1:09:58
  email firms go, but you would say pop-up
• 1:10:01
  is an easier one to
• 1:10:02
  win, win with right away.
• 1:10:04
  Pretty interesting.
• 1:10:04
  Brad, feel free to follow if you have
• 1:10:05
  other pop-up questions, but I'm going to
• 1:10:07
  get into like, I'm just going to talk
• 1:10:09
  about flows for a second.
• 1:10:10
  So let's say the average client comes in
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  there, seven to eight figure brand.
• 1:10:15
  They have some flow set up like, you
• 1:10:17
  know, sort of the
• 1:10:18
  standard win back or whatever
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  else, right?
• 1:10:20
  Like the things that
• 1:10:21
  everybody tells them to put in there.
• 1:10:23
  Where are you going to look for
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  optimization in terms of places that
• 1:10:27
  a lot of people aren't looking?
• 1:10:29
  Yeah.
• 1:10:30
  Before I jump into that one thing I also
• 1:10:31
  just want to think about for pop-ups
• 1:10:32
  is, uh, pop-ups touch everything.
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  Pop-ups touch your flows.
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  They're, they directly
• 1:10:37
  feed into your flows.
• 1:10:38
  Um, if I optimize that content or I
• 1:10:41
  optimize the framework, um, but I
• 1:10:43
  don't have more people
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  coming in, my upside is limited.
• 1:10:45
  If I go from a five person,
• 1:10:48
  I'll turn to an eight percent.
• 1:10:49
  I'll turn to eight.
• 1:10:49
  What's that?
• 1:10:50
  Like 40% maybe something like that.
• 1:10:52
  So I try to do math here.
• 1:10:53
  So we don't, yeah, yeah.
• 1:10:54
  Good.
• 1:10:54
  I could call it.
• 1:10:54
  That's a good idea.
• 1:10:55
  That's a good idea.
• 1:10:56
  But anyway, so like I immediately add
• 1:10:58
  more people to the,
• 1:10:58
  to the flow final pains
• 1:11:00
  are a little bit of, um, a lagging
• 1:11:03
  indicator that it's like, it's, it's
• 1:11:04
  like kind of like retirement.
• 1:11:05
  You know, everyone says that if you start
• 1:11:07
  saving for retirement when you're 18, by
• 1:11:08
  the time you're 65, it just like those
• 1:11:10
  last 10 years, just like shoot up your
• 1:11:12
  network, it's the same concept where if I
• 1:11:14
  don't start collecting today and I
• 1:11:16
  don't optimize that for today, then six
• 1:11:18
  months from now, I don't have the same
• 1:11:19
  number of people that I could be talking
• 1:11:21
  to as I, as I could.
• 1:11:23
  So Andrew, the, the last thing you said
• 1:11:24
  there was, um, like how do we triage
• 1:11:27
  like where to put our focus at in flows?
• 1:11:28
  Yeah.
• 1:11:29
  I mean, I guess what I'm saying is like
• 1:11:30
  everybody had, everybody listening
• 1:11:31
  to this has exposure to
• 1:11:33
  some sort of email work, right?
• 1:11:34
  And I think pop we've identified popups
• 1:11:36
  as being a place that's, that's an
• 1:11:38
  unutilized place or utilized place.
• 1:11:41
  I'm thinking about, all right, what else
• 1:11:42
  are you looking at that like, aren't the
• 1:11:44
  normal things that people would be
• 1:11:45
  looking at in terms of
• 1:11:46
  optimization around flows?
• 1:11:48
  So I would say, do they have all the
• 1:11:50
  flows that we would
• 1:11:51
  expect them to have in place?
• 1:11:52
  Are they using either a first party or a
• 1:11:55
  third party identity resolution software
• 1:11:57
  to increase their number of triggered
• 1:11:59
  events for like flows within the flows.
• 1:12:01
  They do have, do they have enough emails?
• 1:12:02
  A while back, a client asked us or a
• 1:12:05
  prospect assets who we end up signing on
• 1:12:06
  with, um, you know, I only have one
• 1:12:08
  email, my I'm going to
• 1:12:09
  check out how much money
• 1:12:10
  is that costing me.
• 1:12:11
  And they wanted us to put
• 1:12:11
  like a dollar figure to it.
• 1:12:13
  And so what I went ahead and did was we
• 1:12:14
  took three of our biggest clients, um,
• 1:12:17
  who were doing probably $10 million a
• 1:12:19
  month, just in this single flow.
• 1:12:22
  And we aggregated the numbers and we
• 1:12:23
  basically found out that 50% of all of
• 1:12:26
  your abandoned checkout revenue comes on
• 1:12:27
  email one and then two through five, or
• 1:12:31
  you know, how many emails you have in
• 1:12:32
  there contributes to remaining 50%.
• 1:12:34
  So it's almost like I can get $2, but I'm
• 1:12:36
  choosing to pick up $1.
• 1:12:37
  And so it's like, do
• 1:12:39
  you have the right flows?
• 1:12:40
  Do you have enough
• 1:12:41
  emails within those flows?
• 1:12:42
  Do you have any like technical issues in
• 1:12:44
  place that are, but we frequently find
• 1:12:46
  people have flow filters set up
• 1:12:48
  incorrectly or additional filter set up
• 1:12:49
  incorrectly, which you immediately maybe
• 1:12:51
  trim the number of emails that you're
• 1:12:53
  going to send to someone
• 1:12:53
  that's a, that's a common one.
• 1:12:55
  And then maybe the content is just bad.
• 1:12:57
  Maybe they're, they're not focusing on
• 1:12:58
  their offers enough.
• 1:12:59
  Like we've had clients or prospects have
• 1:13:00
  came into our, um, into our funnel and
• 1:13:04
  they have an offer on their pop-up and
• 1:13:06
  then they don't send the offer via
• 1:13:07
  email for 30 minutes or the whole entire
• 1:13:09
  first email doesn't contain the offer.
• 1:13:10
  And so they aren't
• 1:13:11
  getting that for a full day.
• 1:13:13
  So I would say like the biggest bucket of
• 1:13:15
  issues are, do you have the right flows?
• 1:13:17
  Do you have enough emails?
• 1:13:18
  Are you layering an SMS in there?
• 1:13:20
  Um, but then there's a lot
• 1:13:21
  of like small technical things
• 1:13:22
  that can break things as well.
• 1:13:23
  So just to be clear, these flows, these
• 1:13:25
  are like abandoned
• 1:13:27
  checkout, welcome flow.
• 1:13:29
  What are the other ones?
• 1:13:30
  Yeah.
• 1:13:31
  What's that?
• 1:13:31
  So like the welcome flow,
• 1:13:33
  the browser abandoned flow.
• 1:13:34
  Um, yeah.
• 1:13:35
  Everyone says add to cart, but I'm anyone
• 1:13:38
  you identify with the add to cart, you're
• 1:13:39
  also going to
• 1:13:40
  identify through the browse.
• 1:13:41
  And so the only difference there is I can
• 1:13:43
  now talk to them a
• 1:13:43
  little bit differently.
• 1:13:45
  Otherwise like welcome
• 1:13:46
  browse, checkout post purchase.
• 1:13:49
  Yeah.
• 1:13:49
  If like, and we like to split post
• 1:13:51
  purchase between pre-delivery and post
• 1:13:52
  delivery, so what are the expectations
• 1:13:54
  that someone has as soon as they order?
• 1:13:57
  Um, and what are the expectations someone
• 1:13:58
  has after they, their product comes in.
• 1:14:00
  So much of LTV is
• 1:14:01
  driven by the product itself.
• 1:14:02
  And if I can help you adopt the product
• 1:14:04
  that I'm selling to you, I think my
• 1:14:06
  likelihood of increasing your LTV goes up
• 1:14:07
  pretty considerably.
• 1:14:09
  And this identity resolution thing, what
• 1:14:10
  does that, what does that mean?
• 1:14:12
  Yeah.
• 1:14:12
  So, um, you have all these different
• 1:14:14
  identity resolution partners out there.
• 1:14:15
  You have first and third party ones.
• 1:14:17
  Basically they're saying we help you know
• 1:14:20
  who people are on your
• 1:14:21
  list or on your website.
• 1:14:23
  So the first party ones are ones that
• 1:14:25
  they're already on your list and you
• 1:14:28
  know, cookie expires and
• 1:14:29
  we don't know who they are.
• 1:14:30
  So they're browsing my website.
• 1:14:32
  I see someone browsing, but
• 1:14:33
  I can't say this is Andrew.
• 1:14:35
  If I knew this was Andrew, I could send
• 1:14:36
  Andrew an email saying, Hey, Andrew,
• 1:14:37
  you're checking out this
• 1:14:38
  protein powder or whatever it is.
• 1:14:40
  And so first party helps me identify
• 1:14:41
  people who are already on my list.
• 1:14:43
  And then the third party ones are the
• 1:14:44
  retention.com, the
• 1:14:46
  revenue roles, the open
• 1:14:48
  sends, all these different ones that say,
• 1:14:51
  there's someone on your, on your website.
• 1:14:53
  You don't know who they
• 1:14:54
  are, but I know who they are.
• 1:14:55
  And I can tell you who they are.
• 1:14:56
  At least that's the theory behind them.
• 1:14:58
  And those love the first party ones.
• 1:15:00
  And then we're kind of mixing the third
• 1:15:02
  party ones because they can
• 1:15:03
  just enter in so many, so many risks,
• 1:15:05
  especially have done incorrectly.
• 1:15:06
  Yeah.
• 1:15:07
  Yeah.
• 1:15:07
  I mean, I think, yeah,
• 1:15:08
  that's, that's what I thought.
• 1:15:09
  And I, there was, I remember reading on,
• 1:15:12
  uh, reading about retention.com,
• 1:15:14
  getting into some legal hot water.
• 1:15:15
  You know, I read it
• 1:15:16
  on the public internet.
• 1:15:17
  Okay.
• 1:15:17
  This isn't just me conjecturing.
• 1:15:19
  Like I know that
• 1:15:20
  there's issues around that.
• 1:15:21
  So I was curious what you meant by that.
• 1:15:23
  But, um, anyways, sorry, Brian, go ahead.
• 1:15:24
  Is that, uh, what's your overrated
• 1:15:26
  underrated take on third party?
• 1:15:27
  I think a lot of them aren't actually
• 1:15:29
  great at what they say they're great at
• 1:15:31
  of actually identifying people and
• 1:15:33
  matching them to people on your list.
• 1:15:35
  And if they aren't great at that, then
• 1:15:37
  they're just like opening up the door
• 1:15:38
  for like so many deliverability issues,
• 1:15:39
  which is like the number one
• 1:15:40
  issue that we see from that.
• 1:15:42
  You see, you know, previously you'd set
• 1:15:44
  up like a welcome series of sorts
• 1:15:45
  for those third party people, which is a
• 1:15:47
  terrible idea actually, because
• 1:15:48
  someone's coming to your website, you
• 1:15:49
  just clone over your welcome series and
• 1:15:51
  you say, Hey, thanks for signing up.
• 1:15:52
  And it's like, they actually
• 1:15:53
  didn't sign up for anything.
• 1:15:54
  No one really
• 1:15:54
  recommends that way anymore.
• 1:15:55
  They kind of bring people into
• 1:15:57
  the CRM in a much lighter way.
• 1:15:59
  But even then I'm, I personally don't
• 1:16:01
  like them, but they
• 1:16:02
  also drive performance.
• 1:16:03
  And so it's kind of a balance of what the
• 1:16:05
  client is interested in.
• 1:16:06
  I can, I can tell them
• 1:16:07
  reasons why we don't like it.
• 1:16:08
  And then we can talk about the risks.
• 1:16:09
  And then if they decide they want to take
• 1:16:10
  that risk, then, um, you know, I'm
• 1:16:12
  more than happy to help them out with
• 1:16:13
  that one that I've been, you said
• 1:16:14
  we don't talk about vendors.
• 1:16:16
  No, you can't know letter it.
• 1:16:17
  That's all right.
• 1:16:17
  Okay.
• 1:16:18
  Well, we'll just go ask him for a
• 1:16:19
  sponsorship after the fact.
• 1:16:20
  There we go.
• 1:16:21
  One that I have been really gung ho to
• 1:16:23
  test out and I'm, we have a, we're
• 1:16:25
  assigned a client who was
• 1:16:26
  already on a test with them.
• 1:16:27
  And so that should be wrapping up your
• 1:16:28
  next week or so as customers AI.
• 1:16:31
  Their whole thing is that they have been
• 1:16:33
  throwing out reports showing how
• 1:16:35
  they are much better at identifying than
• 1:16:37
  other third party ones.
• 1:16:38
  And if, if the identification rate goes
• 1:16:40
  up to a pretty healthy degree, and I
• 1:16:42
  don't carry quite the risk that I do with
• 1:16:44
  other ones, then I become
• 1:16:46
  much more interested in it.
• 1:16:47
  Um, right now it's a, uh, it's very easy
• 1:16:50
  to, to wreck things
• 1:16:51
  if you're not careful.
• 1:16:52
  It's funny that you say that the CI
• 1:16:53
  identification thing, I know
• 1:16:55
  if econ brands are using them because
• 1:16:56
  about 40 seconds after I go on their
• 1:16:58
  website, my wife is the one that's opted
• 1:17:00
  in and she's like, why are you on this?
• 1:17:03
  I was like, I'm just poking around.
• 1:17:04
  You know, like I'm just doing some
• 1:17:05
  research and she's like chronically
• 1:17:06
  the one that's opted in.
• 1:17:07
  I'm sure it's IP address related.
• 1:17:08
  Um, and it's, it's hilarious because I
• 1:17:10
  never get them, which is my preference.
• 1:17:12
  Anyways.
• 1:17:13
  So no, it's, uh, it's,
• 1:17:14
  it's funny that you say that.
• 1:17:15
  Cool.
• 1:17:16
  Okay.
• 1:17:16
  Sweet.
• 1:17:16
  Well, we can, we can kind of get back on
• 1:17:18
  the, uh, the overrated, underrated
• 1:17:19
  chain, cause I think that there's a,
• 1:17:21
  there's some, there's some fun stuff we
• 1:17:22
  can continue to dig into there.
• 1:17:23
  So I think we've talked a fair about,
• 1:17:24
  about popups and there's probably
• 1:17:26
  even more to dig into, like maybe you
• 1:17:27
  have some suggestions on popups and
• 1:17:30
  we've also talked a bit about flows.
• 1:17:31
  And again, I'm sure there's some more
• 1:17:32
  there, but like, let's deviate
• 1:17:34
  to campaigns for a second.
• 1:17:36
  Sending volume isn't really like an
• 1:17:37
  overrated underrated thing, but I guess
• 1:17:39
  maybe the way to rephrase it is like,
• 1:17:40
  when you guys look at the average
• 1:17:42
  account, are they
• 1:17:43
  sending too much or too little?
• 1:17:45
  I would say average is too little.
• 1:17:47
  And I think, uh, you know, previously I,
• 1:17:49
  I would have said most brands are, are
• 1:17:51
  good with eight to 10 emails a month.
• 1:17:53
  And you know that I've been
• 1:17:55
  at home for almost four years.
• 1:17:56
  And since then I've had my eyes open that
• 1:17:59
  you can send far more
• 1:18:00
  emails than I ever realized.
• 1:18:02
  We have some clients who send 30 a month.
• 1:18:05
  So basically daily, we have a couple of
• 1:18:07
  clients who send two a day, every
• 1:18:09
  single day, and I think that's pretty far
• 1:18:12
  beyond what I, uh, think is worth it.
• 1:18:16
  And we're working with them to hopefully
• 1:18:17
  reduce that down to just a single
• 1:18:19
  email a day, doing a
• 1:18:20
  nice without tests there.
• 1:18:21
  So anyways, yeah, I think that most
• 1:18:23
  brands can probably
• 1:18:24
  send three emails a week.
• 1:18:26
  Um, if you have a larger list, if you
• 1:18:27
  have more to talk about, if you have more
• 1:18:29
  segmentation opportunities, you can
• 1:18:31
  probably go, um, you know, beyond that.
• 1:18:33
  But I'm talking like big buckets of
• 1:18:35
  customers, I'm merely
• 1:18:36
  engagement audiences.
• 1:18:38
  You know, if you have like, you know,
• 1:18:39
  local things happening in LA or something
• 1:18:41
  like that, and you're seeing it's like
• 1:18:42
  5,000 people, I wouldn't, I'm talking
• 1:18:44
  about like, like, what am I going to do
• 1:18:45
  with my major sends?
• 1:18:46
  I think three a week is a pretty good
• 1:18:48
  standard for most brands.
• 1:18:51
  And then the bigger
• 1:18:51
  brands can go even higher.
• 1:18:52
  Yeah.
• 1:18:53
  And so like a seven, eight figure brand
• 1:18:55
  probably in the seven figure range.
• 1:18:57
  Three week is probably a good benchmark.
• 1:18:58
  Once you get into the
• 1:18:59
  eight, it's more than that.
• 1:19:00
  So that's further for the people that are
• 1:19:01
  listening in that seven and eight range.
• 1:19:03
  If they wanted to go about increasing the
• 1:19:05
  volume of campaigns, I have
• 1:19:07
  two questions related to that.
• 1:19:08
  The first is like, how do they actually
• 1:19:09
  validate that sending more
• 1:19:11
  is actually doing something now?
• 1:19:13
  If they're smaller, sending more revenue
• 1:19:14
  goes up on the website.
• 1:19:15
  It's probably pretty obvious, but I'm
• 1:19:16
  wondering like, okay, how
• 1:19:17
  do you actually validate that?
• 1:19:19
  And two, how did they come up
• 1:19:20
  with ideas for what to send?
• 1:19:22
  Like, are you, do you guys have a list of
• 1:19:24
  here's the campaigns
• 1:19:25
  that we want to talk about?
• 1:19:26
  I'm sure if you have more skews, it's
• 1:19:28
  easier, but I guess those, those
• 1:19:29
  kind of two buckets of
• 1:19:30
  validation and then ideation.
• 1:19:32
  So first off, I would just be a
• 1:19:33
  reasonable benchmark of revenue per email
• 1:19:35
  and see like, as I increase my cadence,
• 1:19:38
  does that maintain to a decent degree?
• 1:19:40
  Another thing is that, um, common trap
• 1:19:42
  that people fall into is they
• 1:19:43
  just evaluate the unsubscribe rate.
• 1:19:44
  And so they will say, Oh, my
• 1:19:46
  unsubscribe rate's still 0.3%.
• 1:19:48
  It's a healthy level.
• 1:19:49
  And it's almost as if like every single
• 1:19:51
  email, you know, for the most part,
• 1:19:52
  you're going to send to the same
• 1:19:53
  audiences pretty consistently.
• 1:19:55
  And if I'm saying to the exact same
• 1:19:56
  person every single day,
• 1:19:58
  then when they unsubscribe,
• 1:20:00
  it's only, you know, I'm only counting
• 1:20:01
  that unsubscribe as one out of the
• 1:20:03
  hundred thousand people in
• 1:20:04
  the email that I sent to.
• 1:20:05
  But if you look at gross unsubscribes,
• 1:20:07
  you see a much different picture where
• 1:20:08
  it's like, Hey, I only had a 0.3%
• 1:20:10
  subscribe rate, but I
• 1:20:11
  lost 2000 subscribers.
• 1:20:13
  And so I would, um,
• 1:20:15
  look at revenue per email.
• 1:20:16
  I'd look at the gross unsubscribe.
• 1:20:17
  So I'm seeing, um, and then I would just
• 1:20:19
  try and make a trade off of like,
• 1:20:20
  understand the trade off is, is an
• 1:20:22
  additional $10,000 in email worth the
• 1:20:25
  2000 people that I lost off my list.
• 1:20:27
  Do I, would I rather, you know, one thing
• 1:20:31
  that brands can use to their advantage
• 1:20:32
  is promotional calendar.
• 1:20:35
  And I think anytime you have a
• 1:20:36
  promotional calendar, you
• 1:20:37
  can be more aggressive on
• 1:20:38
  the number of sins that you have.
• 1:20:40
  And so, um, if you have a really
• 1:20:42
  consistent calendar where you're
• 1:20:43
  messaging people, I think that you can be
• 1:20:44
  more aggressive there without, uh,
• 1:20:46
  some of the, the risk
• 1:20:47
  associated with an increased cadence.
• 1:20:49
  And so, um, those are the primary things
• 1:20:50
  I'd be paying attention to click rate.
• 1:20:52
  Trending down is obviously another one
• 1:20:53
  too, but revenue per email, unsubscribes
• 1:20:56
  are probably too many
• 1:20:56
  KPIs I pay attention.
• 1:20:57
  You mentioned for a client, you're
• 1:21:00
  running a holdout right now.
• 1:21:01
  Like is a holdout necessary?
• 1:21:03
  It sounds like actually isn't maybe even
• 1:21:05
  necessary in most cases, like it might
• 1:21:06
  be overkill or many people don't even
• 1:21:09
  send enough to know in the first place.
• 1:21:10
  Like how you feel about holdouts.
• 1:21:12
  Yeah.
• 1:21:12
  Um, we've not done very many holdouts,
• 1:21:14
  like really at all, because we're only
• 1:21:16
  trying to hold out the campaigns as a
• 1:21:19
  variable and Clavio's own tooling, uh,
• 1:21:21
  is more so focused on the flows.
• 1:21:23
  So it took us a little bit of
• 1:21:24
  brainstorming to figure out
• 1:21:24
  how we can even handle this.
• 1:21:26
  Because a lot of times we're relying on
• 1:21:27
  Clavio's attributed revenue, but if I'm
• 1:21:29
  holding out a group of 20% of people from
• 1:21:31
  an audience, of course, I'm not going to
• 1:21:32
  attribute any revenue to them, even
• 1:21:34
  though they might actually be purchasing.
• 1:21:36
  It's just not the money is
• 1:21:36
  just not being shown to Clavio.
• 1:21:39
  And so what we did was we, uh, took their
• 1:21:41
  main segment that they
• 1:21:42
  send to maybe 650,000
• 1:21:45
  people, he put it through a flow where we
• 1:21:48
  attach some properties, group one, group
• 1:21:49
  two, group three, through five.
• 1:21:51
  And then we assumed that in a 650,000,
• 1:21:54
  uh, sample size that
• 1:21:56
  we would get a fair roll
• 1:21:57
  the dice and we wouldn't have to worry
• 1:21:59
  about trying to, uh, hold LTV consistent
• 1:22:02
  across the groups.
• 1:22:03
  Thanks Dave, re-cook for that suggestion.
• 1:22:05
  And then what we've done now is that we
• 1:22:07
  took 20% of the people we exported the
• 1:22:09
  data Clavio's exports, allow you to see
• 1:22:12
  someone's lifetime value.
• 1:22:13
  And so we're measuring two things.
• 1:22:15
  Does the LTV lift of group one maintain
• 1:22:18
  consistent with groups two through five?
• 1:22:20
  And does the number of subscribers
• 1:22:22
  maintained also stay, like that, do we
• 1:22:24
  see an improvement in
• 1:22:25
  subscribers retained?
• 1:22:26
  So the holdout test
• 1:22:27
  is kind of pain to do.
• 1:22:28
  And I expect that we'll have to run it
• 1:22:29
  for one to two months
• 1:22:31
  at minimum to get any
• 1:22:32
  statistically significant data.
• 1:22:35
  Um, so yeah, if someone's not sending
• 1:22:37
  very much, I would say just send more.
• 1:22:38
  You don't need to over complicate it.
• 1:22:40
  If you feel like you're sending too much,
• 1:22:41
  maybe you could do something like this,
• 1:22:42
  but it is mildly complicated setup.
• 1:22:44
  Yeah.
• 1:22:44
  Um, I'll, I'll shut up and let Andrew
• 1:22:46
  jump in a second here.
• 1:22:48
  I feel like Dave is also, maybe when you
• 1:22:49
  send an invoice to
• 1:22:50
  Dave, I feel like we're
• 1:22:51
  just constantly saying Dave's name.
• 1:22:52
  Maybe he's just really good
• 1:22:53
  at providing value on Twitter.
• 1:22:54
  And that's why he keeps coming up.
• 1:22:57
  I used to work for Dave and he taught me
• 1:22:58
  how you spreadsheets.
• 1:22:59
  I attribute all my
• 1:22:59
  spreadsheets to Dave or Chad GPT.
• 1:23:02
  All right.
• 1:23:02
  Dave, Dave, Dave's going to send you an
• 1:23:04
  invoice instead then.
• 1:23:05
  So awesome.
• 1:23:06
  Um, cool.
• 1:23:07
  Okay.
• 1:23:07
  So then the second piece of that is,
• 1:23:09
  well, actually, okay.
• 1:23:10
  Before we dive into getting more ideas,
• 1:23:12
  what is the sending volume difference in
• 1:23:15
  that specific test that you're running?
• 1:23:16
  I'm just genuinely curious.
• 1:23:17
  103,000 in group one versus whatever.
• 1:23:20
  130,000 times four is
• 1:23:21
  265, 20, 130 versus 520.
• 1:23:24
  Okay.
• 1:23:24
  20%, 20% to 80%.
• 1:23:26
  Gotcha.
• 1:23:26
  And how many, like, what's the difference
• 1:23:27
  in like actual, um, direct, is it volume
• 1:23:30
  of emails?
• 1:23:31
  Like if you're saying you're going from
• 1:23:32
  three to six a week or like, what
• 1:23:34
  does that actually look like?
• 1:23:35
  And it's 14 a week versus seven a week.
• 1:23:37
  Okay.
• 1:23:37
  Okay.
• 1:23:37
  Got it.
• 1:23:38
  Cool.
• 1:23:38
  Okay.
• 1:23:38
  And then my second half of this Andrew,
• 1:23:40
  feel free to stop, but, um,
• 1:23:42
  but just like campaign ideation.
• 1:23:43
  Like if you're going from seven to 14,
• 1:23:46
  like what, what do you talk about?
• 1:23:47
  Yeah.
• 1:23:47
  What are you even going to ask him?
• 1:23:49
  Yeah.
• 1:23:49
  I mean, a lot of the ones that are
• 1:23:51
  sending that frequently offers all the
• 1:23:54
  time for offer, offer new product
• 1:23:56
  release, new product
• 1:23:57
  feature, primarily the
• 1:23:59
  content there for the
• 1:23:59
  client that sends a 14 a week.
• 1:24:01
  Luckily we're not in charge
• 1:24:02
  of content ideation for them.
• 1:24:04
  Very likely.
• 1:24:05
  But, uh, yeah.
• 1:24:06
  Uh, I mean, anytime your business has
• 1:24:08
  something to talk about, talk about that,
• 1:24:10
  uh, product features, testimonial
• 1:24:11
  features, story features.
• 1:24:13
  We had a client that's been scaling
• 1:24:14
  really aggressively in the past year.
• 1:24:16
  They're not a client of this anymore,
• 1:24:17
  but, um, they were scaling really
• 1:24:19
  aggressively and they
• 1:24:21
  did frequent promotions.
• 1:24:22
  And at one point we checked their data
• 1:24:24
  and six other top 10 performing
• 1:24:26
  campaigns were non-promotional
• 1:24:28
  story-based messaging
• 1:24:29
  that was just talking
• 1:24:30
  about someone's experience with their
• 1:24:31
  product and how it's helped them
• 1:24:33
  with problem solution type thing.
• 1:24:35
  And so I think the first thing I jumped
• 1:24:37
  to it would probably be offers as a way
• 1:24:38
  to drive it, but I also know that not
• 1:24:39
  everyone wants to be so offer heavy.
• 1:24:41
  So, you know, leaning into problem
• 1:24:42
  solution, if you have it leading into
• 1:24:45
  testimonials, reviews, product features,
• 1:24:47
  half the battle is
• 1:24:48
  just being in the inbox.
• 1:24:49
  If you're in the inbox and your mind's
• 1:24:50
  one day exists, you know, maybe, maybe
• 1:24:52
  they don't need the product you're trying
• 1:24:54
  to sell them today, but you reminded
• 1:24:56
  them that they do need something else
• 1:24:57
  that you can provide them.
• 1:24:58
  So half the battle is
• 1:24:59
  show up in front of them.
• 1:25:00
  And the other half is like, what, what
• 1:25:02
  can my content help push you to?
• 1:25:04
  So somebody goes, how many, you know,
• 1:25:06
  what's the ratio between, um, sending
• 1:25:08
  SMS versus email?
• 1:25:10
  I mean, I feel like you spend send SMS a
• 1:25:13
  lot less, but curious on that.
• 1:25:15
  Yeah, we're much more
• 1:25:15
  conservative with SMS.
• 1:25:16
  I would say two a week is a pretty good
• 1:25:19
  number for nearly every brand.
• 1:25:21
  I have less hard opinions on this, but I
• 1:25:23
  think one a week would have, would work
• 1:25:25
  for most brands.
• 1:25:27
  And again, like, you know, we talked
• 1:25:28
  about like the cost
• 1:25:29
  of email being so much
• 1:25:31
  cheaper than meta, obviously like SMS is
• 1:25:33
  cheaper than meta, but SMS is still
• 1:25:34
  really expensive in the cost scale.
• 1:25:36
  Especially if you're not segmenting your
• 1:25:37
  list, we see a lot of unsegmented SMS
• 1:25:39
  lists that are just full list sends.
• 1:25:42
  So, um, you know, if you're a decent rate
• 1:25:45
  for our clients, it'd
• 1:25:46
  be like half a penny.
• 1:25:46
  We've seen some clients go down to a
• 1:25:48
  third of a penny, but most people are
• 1:25:50
  probably sitting at like
• 1:25:51
  eight, eight tens of a penny.
• 1:25:52
  And those sound like small differences.
• 1:25:54
  But when you're sending it to an audience
• 1:25:55
  of a hundred, 200, 500,000 people,
• 1:25:58
  and you're sending it multiple times a
• 1:26:00
  week, we're talking, you know, we had a
• 1:26:02
  client that we helped save, I think I
• 1:26:04
  want to say $30,000 every single month
• 1:26:07
  by segmenting the list.
• 1:26:08
  And we saw next to no
• 1:26:09
  drop off in revenue.
• 1:26:11
  Yeah.
• 1:26:12
  It's just, they're
• 1:26:12
  just blasting everybody.
• 1:26:14
  Yep.
• 1:26:14
  So another thing I've always been curious
• 1:26:16
  about is a lot of these emails that you
• 1:26:18
  get from brands through Klaviyo or
• 1:26:20
  wherever are heavily
• 1:26:21
  designed one big graphic.
• 1:26:24
  Right.
• 1:26:24
  And then, and then I always feel like the
• 1:26:26
  plain text stuff looks better and
• 1:26:28
  actually is what I respond to more.
• 1:26:31
  So two part question.
• 1:26:32
  One is, is like, what, what in terms of
• 1:26:34
  design is innovative and revenue
• 1:26:37
  driving in email on, and then the second
• 1:26:40
  one is like, is there an ability to send
• 1:26:43
  more plain text emails or is there like,
• 1:26:47
  you know, take that wherever you want to.
• 1:26:50
  I think plain text stands out because
• 1:26:51
  everyone sends design.
• 1:26:52
  I think if every single person sent plain
• 1:26:54
  text and plain text
• 1:26:55
  wouldn't work as well.
• 1:26:56
  Generally speaking, we see, um, you know,
• 1:26:58
  image driven emails have a lower click
• 1:27:00
  rate, but they have a better conversion
• 1:27:02
  rate of people who do click and the
• 1:27:03
  plain text ones tend to have a much
• 1:27:05
  higher click rate and a
• 1:27:06
  much lower conversion rate.
• 1:27:07
  And so they ended up being like a kind of
• 1:27:10
  like a wash in the end.
• 1:27:11
  Uh, I think, you know, back to that
• 1:27:12
  problem solution brand, they weren't
• 1:27:14
  doing this problem solutions through
• 1:27:15
  plain text, but I think anything that you
• 1:27:17
  can attach a story to
• 1:27:18
  plain text will do really well.
• 1:27:19
  And so like, we don't have hard and fast,
• 1:27:21
  like for plain text a month, but they're
• 1:27:23
  great whenever you
• 1:27:24
  need a really quick email.
• 1:27:26
  They're great whenever you need to kind
• 1:27:27
  of explain something.
• 1:27:28
  They're great when you want like a
• 1:27:29
  personal touch to it.
• 1:27:31
  And so yeah, they're fantastic.
• 1:27:32
  We love using them.
• 1:27:33
  And again, like I think supplement brands
• 1:27:35
  can really, really lean into this
• 1:27:36
  because they're, those are always, you
• 1:27:38
  know, primarily problem solution brands.
• 1:27:40
  And so, uh, that's a great example of it.
• 1:27:41
  And then from like, like design
• 1:27:42
  perspective, don't overcomplicate it.
• 1:27:45
  Um, you know, we have brands who have, we
• 1:27:47
  see brands who want to throw a
• 1:27:48
  million blocks in there or, you know,
• 1:27:50
  you're just, you're just giving people
• 1:27:51
  a million different
• 1:27:52
  things to pay attention to.
• 1:27:54
  And so, you know, I've heard many people
• 1:27:55
  say like the rule of one, like have
• 1:27:56
  one concept for your email.
• 1:27:58
  I think you can go beyond one, but after
• 1:28:00
  a couple of modules, a couple of things
• 1:28:02
  you're trying to get someone to pay
• 1:28:03
  attention to, uh, you're just
• 1:28:04
  deleting the message.
• 1:28:04
  And so I just recommend to keep it pretty
• 1:28:06
  simple conversion focused
• 1:28:08
  as CTAs and heroes, maybe, maybe you have
• 1:28:10
  like some, some product feeds where
• 1:28:11
  you're helping someone discover different
• 1:28:13
  products from you guys.
• 1:28:14
  And you're maybe using like
• 1:28:15
  the dynamic data that shows.
• 1:28:17
  Best sellers across your whole entire
• 1:28:18
  plot mix or one of the
• 1:28:20
  personalize to this person.
• 1:28:21
  So there's a lot of, there's a lot that
• 1:28:23
  you can do, but I would just
• 1:28:23
  say, just don't overdo it.
• 1:28:25
  Does this is a, this is a, I'm gonna
• 1:28:27
  expose myself here is, uh, does plain
• 1:28:30
  text read differently by like an inbox
• 1:28:32
  provider, like his Gmail, looking at
• 1:28:34
  that and actually saying this is
• 1:28:35
  different than the designed email, like
• 1:28:36
  something with HTML I'm assuming.
• 1:28:38
  Um, yeah, I'm just curious.
• 1:28:40
  Yeah.
• 1:28:40
  So if you, um, if you're using image
• 1:28:42
  slices, which is what 95% of DZ brands
• 1:28:45
  do and what we do as well, I have an
• 1:28:47
  assumption that Google is not reading
• 1:28:49
  the image behind that, you know, things
• 1:28:51
  like AI vision now it's, if it
• 1:28:53
  isn't happening already,
• 1:28:54
  it's going to be, um, very soon.
• 1:28:56
  And so before when you used images, the
• 1:28:59
  inbox providers had to
• 1:29:00
  kind of fall back to alt text.
• 1:29:02
  So yes, image emails have far less
• 1:29:05
  readability than a plain text would
• 1:29:07
  both for the inboxes as well as for, um,
• 1:29:09
  people who are, um, vision impaired
• 1:29:12
  or have like accessibility concerns, uh,
• 1:29:15
  you know, all these inbox providers
• 1:29:17
  and primarily Google, Google is probably
• 1:29:18
  gonna make up 60% of
• 1:29:19
  your list, maybe 70%.
• 1:29:21
  Um, they don't tell you what they factor
• 1:29:24
  into for deliverability.
• 1:29:26
  And so you're kind of always making some
• 1:29:27
  assumptions that people always talk
• 1:29:28
  about like an image to text ratio.
• 1:29:30
  I think it's like 60, 40 people
• 1:29:31
  recommend, but if you
• 1:29:33
  stuff text into your emails,
• 1:29:35
  they're likely going to
• 1:29:36
  inbox a little better.
• 1:29:37
  And that's, um, there, I mean, there are
• 1:29:39
  softwares that are set up around this
• 1:29:41
  that are just injecting texts into your
• 1:29:42
  emails to help you, uh, and box a little
• 1:29:44
  bit.
• 1:29:44
  Yeah, that makes sense.
• 1:29:46
  So you mentioned segmentation in there
• 1:29:48
  and saving people a bunch of money.
• 1:29:50
  Um, we can come to the money thing in a
• 1:29:51
  little bit, but, um,
• 1:29:53
  what's like the 80 20
• 1:29:54
  of segmentation, like what, what, what, I
• 1:29:56
  guess, like, well, how are you
• 1:29:56
  thinking about segmentation?
• 1:29:58
  Like, is it we're trying to increase
• 1:29:59
  relevance, which is going to lead to
• 1:30:01
  improved open rates and click rates in
• 1:30:03
  general across both that segment and
• 1:30:05
  then the broader list as a result or
• 1:30:07
  like, um, I'm just curious, like mindset.
• 1:30:09
  And then like, what is like tactical
• 1:30:11
  piece of advice for like how to actually
• 1:30:12
  implement segmentation knowing the vast
• 1:30:15
  majority of your revenue is going to
• 1:30:16
  come from the hyper
• 1:30:17
  recently engaged people.
• 1:30:20
  There's a reason why a lot of agencies
• 1:30:22
  and people default to like engage 60
• 1:30:24
  engaged 90 day audiences.
• 1:30:25
  We want to take it beyond that,
• 1:30:27
  especially if the
• 1:30:27
  product kind of demands that
• 1:30:29
  thing of like jeans, I own some modern
• 1:30:31
  boat jeans and I haven't bought
• 1:30:32
  new pairs for four years, but
• 1:30:33
  I plan to buy some more soon.
• 1:30:35
  If you looked at me from a, from a
• 1:30:36
  customer perspective, you said I haven't
• 1:30:37
  bought in four years.
• 1:30:38
  I'm a laps customer.
• 1:30:39
  No, it's just, it's just because you made
• 1:30:40
  a great product and I don't need to buy
• 1:30:42
  anymore for awhile.
• 1:30:43
  And so if your product lends to a longer
• 1:30:46
  time usage, then you have to give someone
• 1:30:48
  a reason to purchase, whether that's
• 1:30:50
  offers, new products, they might like,
• 1:30:53
  that's, that's like the primary things,
• 1:30:55
  but, um, uh, it's largely dependent on
• 1:30:58
  your own product.
• 1:30:59
  I think people just try to make it a
• 1:31:00
  cookie cutter approach for everything.
• 1:31:01
  So yeah, most of your revenue is going to
• 1:31:03
  come from a small bucket of customers who
• 1:31:05
  are very, very recent, and you should
• 1:31:06
  think about email as a dependent channel.
• 1:31:08
  Email is just pulling people from meta,
• 1:31:10
  from organic social, from SEO, and it's
• 1:31:13
  just a cheaper medium to get them there.
• 1:31:14
  If you had the best flows in place, but
• 1:31:17
  you didn't have the other channels
• 1:31:18
  funneling the mental email in SMS, you
• 1:31:20
  would, they just want to have any impact
• 1:31:22
  whatsoever.
• 1:31:22
  So I just want to apologize.
• 1:31:23
  I'm going to ask about attribution, which
• 1:31:24
  is if I start to fight on Twitter,
• 1:31:27
  yeah, which is like, what, what's
• 1:31:30
  something that everybody misses between
• 1:31:33
  Clavio paid and GA, what is, what's the
• 1:31:36
  piece there that you
• 1:31:37
  feel like most brands
• 1:31:38
  are missing out on cause I feel like it's
• 1:31:39
  always a battle to get, to get a full
• 1:31:41
  understanding of that.
• 1:31:43
  I think GA is the most conservative look.
• 1:31:45
  And I think Clavio is
• 1:31:46
  the rosiest outlook.
• 1:31:48
  You know, if you're looking at like
• 1:31:49
  Clavio default, the
• 1:31:50
  amazing thing is that Clavio
• 1:31:52
  now has comparative models.
• 1:31:54
  So I can, we've done this for Zach for
• 1:31:56
  all of, for multiple brands.
• 1:31:57
  And they've recently
• 1:31:57
  adjusted their attribution model.
• 1:31:59
  But, um, if I wanted to know, are my, you
• 1:32:01
  know, open rates are really open rate is
• 1:32:03
  really so much like a view based
• 1:32:04
  attribution for you guys.
• 1:32:05
  And if you, if you had a one hour view
• 1:32:08
  based attribution and the row is was
• 1:32:10
  solved, which would you trust like a one
• 1:32:11
  hour view based attribution?
• 1:32:12
  I don't trust
• 1:32:13
  attribution, generally speaking.
• 1:32:15
  Okay.
• 1:32:15
  So I don't know.
• 1:32:15
  I don't know.
• 1:32:16
  You know, it's like, it depends on if
• 1:32:18
  it's Snapchat, I don't trust anything.
• 1:32:19
  Snapchat says meta click based.
• 1:32:21
  I started to get a little bit more
• 1:32:22
  trustworthy, but, um, there's a lot of
• 1:32:24
  nuance there too.
• 1:32:24
  So anyways, not to derail.
• 1:32:25
  So my point of view is that, uh, open
• 1:32:28
  rates are open based attribution is
• 1:32:30
  really similar to view based, but if I
• 1:32:32
  take it down from a five day down to one
• 1:32:33
  hour, that's much more trustworthy to me.
• 1:32:36
  If I like to click based only, that's
• 1:32:37
  much more trustworthy to me.
• 1:32:39
  And then I think literally this week, I
• 1:32:40
  think Clavio is rolling
• 1:32:41
  out multi-channel attribution.
• 1:32:42
  Um, I think it just came out like Monday
• 1:32:43
  and they're multi-touch.
• 1:32:45
  Um, and so you can like
• 1:32:46
  weight things differently.
• 1:32:47
  I like to maintain the default part of
• 1:32:49
  what's, what's impactful about being
• 1:32:51
  an agency is that we have so many brands
• 1:32:53
  that we can look at.
• 1:32:54
  And if you change the context for how you
• 1:32:56
  attribute revenue for
• 1:32:57
  every single client,
• 1:32:58
  um, you kind of lose some of that, uh,
• 1:33:00
  that network effect.
• 1:33:01
  And so the nice thing is
• 1:33:02
  like, I can compare it though.
• 1:33:03
  I don't have to change the attribution.
• 1:33:04
  I can go and I can say, okay, our default
• 1:33:06
  is this, but if I go
• 1:33:07
  in and say, um, a one
• 1:33:09
  day click or a one hour click or seven
• 1:33:10
  day click, whatever I want to do, I can
• 1:33:12
  see what that would actually be.
• 1:33:13
  Um, but while maintaining my baseline
• 1:33:15
  attribution as the default.
• 1:33:16
  Yeah.
• 1:33:17
  That makes sense.
• 1:33:17
  I there's, I want to go back to just like
• 1:33:20
  saving money or maybe not even
• 1:33:22
  necessarily saving money, but like just
• 1:33:23
  the money piece of it in general.
• 1:33:24
  Cause I, you know, I think we kind of
• 1:33:26
  started with this, but I've seen several
• 1:33:28
  times where like on Twitter, a couple of
• 1:33:30
  times you suggested like, Hey, do these
• 1:33:32
  couple of things and that's going to save
• 1:33:33
  you money on your bill.
• 1:33:34
  Or you're on the opposite side where it's
• 1:33:36
  like, no, you're completely
• 1:33:37
  misunderstanding how your bill works.
• 1:33:38
  So I think it would be really
• 1:33:39
  helpful to leave people with.
• 1:33:41
  And you know, obviously we can dig into
• 1:33:42
  any couple of things or any, anything
• 1:33:44
  else we want to, but like what, when you
• 1:33:47
  first start working with people, like
• 1:33:48
  what is the most obvious thing that you
• 1:33:50
  generally do that helps them save their
• 1:33:52
  bill and like, and then this follow up to
• 1:33:54
  that is why are so many people
• 1:33:55
  confused about their billing?
• 1:33:57
  Because most people use Clavio and Clavio
• 1:33:59
  did not make it easy
• 1:33:59
  to understand that first.
• 1:34:01
  Um, I think it's, uh, the opportunity for
• 1:34:03
  immediate cost savings is a little bit
• 1:34:05
  lower now since they've went to active
• 1:34:06
  profile enforcement.
• 1:34:08
  So previously they would say, Hey, we're
• 1:34:09
  going to bill you off active profiles,
• 1:34:10
  but it's really only based off the number
• 1:34:12
  of people that I send to an
• 1:34:13
  a single campaign.
• 1:34:14
  So if I had a hundred thousand list, now
• 1:34:16
  I'm paying for a hundred thousand lists,
• 1:34:17
  but I have 200,000 people, if I split
• 1:34:19
  those 200,000 people into two different
• 1:34:21
  segments, I can send to
• 1:34:22
  both those, no problem.
• 1:34:22
  And so that was kind of like the, the
• 1:34:24
  gaming, the manipulation
• 1:34:25
  that, um, people would do now anymore.
• 1:34:29
  It's, it's, it's a little more dangerous
• 1:34:30
  to do this at the forefront of a
• 1:34:31
  partnership because you don't understand
• 1:34:33
  their CRM yet, but if I drop in a segment
• 1:34:35
  of people who are just absolutely dead
• 1:34:38
  profiles, you know, they've received 15
• 1:34:41
  emails in the last six months and they
• 1:34:42
  haven't done anything, haven't been on
• 1:34:44
  site, they haven't done any of these
• 1:34:45
  things, you know, like those are probably
• 1:34:46
  people that are pretty safe to clean out.
• 1:34:48
  What I'm really hopeful here's a feature
• 1:34:50
  request for Clavio or for other
• 1:34:52
  ESPs is that they
• 1:34:53
  have all the data points.
• 1:34:54
  They have machine learning teams help me
• 1:34:57
  understand who I should be sending to
• 1:34:58
  and who I shouldn't be sending to, which
• 1:34:59
  that kind of creates a disincentive for
• 1:35:01
  them because it's going to trim some of
• 1:35:02
  their costs, but
• 1:35:03
  that's what I want to see.
• 1:35:04
  What do you think about, um, the way
• 1:35:06
  email agencies price, I feel like some,
• 1:35:09
  you know, it's like email agencies
• 1:35:10
  sometimes are charging for a number of
• 1:35:11
  emails there that you're
• 1:35:13
  sending, they're charging too much.
• 1:35:15
  When does that get out of hand for you?
• 1:35:17
  Like, what do you think is the most
• 1:35:18
  efficient way to charge and when,
• 1:35:20
  what should people look out for?
• 1:35:21
  We've went through our own
• 1:35:22
  iterations of like how we charge.
• 1:35:23
  And so I think I have a
• 1:35:25
  good perspective on this.
• 1:35:26
  I, we previously used to have a set price
• 1:35:28
  and then you would get a number of emails
• 1:35:31
  and I basically tried to relay it to
• 1:35:33
  people that they were basically playing
• 1:35:34
  X dollars per email.
• 1:35:36
  And then I think that that kind of
• 1:35:37
  diminishes the expectation around
• 1:35:40
  the strategy work that gets done.
• 1:35:42
  And so we moved away from that and we
• 1:35:43
  say, Hey, the bulk of what you're
• 1:35:44
  paying us for strategy and the creative
• 1:35:46
  gets tacked onto that.
• 1:35:48
  And if you want to add additional emails
• 1:35:49
  on top of your plan, you can do it for
• 1:35:51
  $250 in email, whatever it is.
• 1:35:54
  And so, you know, for a lot of brands,
• 1:35:55
  they're going to send an email and make
• 1:35:57
  10 grand with their very, you know, nice
• 1:35:59
  attribution, but you know, $250 is
• 1:36:02
  usually no brainer for most brands to
• 1:36:04
  say, Hey, I have something I want
• 1:36:05
  to talk about next week.
• 1:36:06
  Let's do it.
• 1:36:07
  I have seen agencies charge as much as a
• 1:36:09
  thousand dollars in email,
• 1:36:10
  which I think is crazy.
• 1:36:13
  I think at that point, I think one of the
• 1:36:15
  hardest things about hiring an agency or
• 1:36:18
  hiring a, an email marketer is if you
• 1:36:20
  don't have the skillset, you don't know
• 1:36:21
  how to evaluate for it.
• 1:36:23
  And so maybe you bring in someone who
• 1:36:24
  helps you find the right fit.
• 1:36:26
  You have someone audit you and tell you
• 1:36:27
  how they would run the account.
• 1:36:28
  But if you're paying a thousand dollars
• 1:36:30
  in email, you should probably just
• 1:36:31
  hire in house.
• 1:36:32
  So yeah, I, on the low end, I've seen
• 1:36:35
  like people charge really low rates.
• 1:36:38
  Just, you know, as they're freelancing,
• 1:36:39
  getting their foot in the door,
• 1:36:40
  whatever it is.
• 1:36:41
  And I feel like I have since we, since we
• 1:36:42
  haven't, I haven't been in that world
• 1:36:44
  for four years when I put freelance.
• 1:36:45
  And so I have less of a perspective on
• 1:36:47
  that, but on the high end, I've seen
• 1:36:49
  agencies charge like a thousand dollars
• 1:36:50
  in email, which is just crazy.
• 1:36:51
  So we'll just finish off with a section
• 1:36:54
  that we like to call beefs with Z, which
• 1:36:56
  is anything, anybody, anything or anyone
• 1:37:00
  you want to get into that it really
• 1:37:01
  bugs you about the work that you're doing
• 1:37:03
  in terms of industry wise, in terms
• 1:37:06
  of tactics that you see that really bug
• 1:37:08
  you things that you would want to get out
• 1:37:09
  in the air.
• 1:37:10
  But if you need a second to think, I'll
• 1:37:12
  start out with Zach.
• 1:37:13
  Well, okay.
• 1:37:14
  Well, I want to say
• 1:37:14
  my, my beef is with Zach.
• 1:37:15
  That's why he's not here.
• 1:37:16
  We're just, we're
• 1:37:16
  just, we're really beefy.
• 1:37:17
  The D the text right now are just insane.
• 1:37:21
  They're just, yeah, it's crazy.
• 1:37:22
  So anyways, drives me crazy.
• 1:37:23
  When people force, you know, we're back
• 1:37:26
  on popups for a second.
• 1:37:27
  When people force you to go to your
• 1:37:28
  inbox, to get a
• 1:37:29
  coupon code, some agencies
• 1:37:31
  will do this on accident.
• 1:37:32
  Others will do it maliciously and say,
• 1:37:34
  Oh, we're driving up a tribute revenue.
• 1:37:36
  Cause you're forcing an email open, which
• 1:37:38
  I think is really dumb.
• 1:37:39
  You're immediately making them compete
• 1:37:41
  against 50 other brands in their inbox.
• 1:37:43
  If you're sending them a text, you're
• 1:37:44
  making them compete against their spouse,
• 1:37:46
  their friends, their
• 1:37:47
  hobbies, whatever it is.
• 1:37:48
  And so I'm okay accepting a lower
• 1:37:50
  attribute revenue, keeping them on site,
• 1:37:52
  putting the coupon on a pop-up and just
• 1:37:53
  like being like, we've had clients who
• 1:37:55
  I've, who we've said your attribute
• 1:37:56
  revenue is going to drop.
• 1:37:58
  The only thing that we're changing is the
• 1:37:59
  word the code is listed.
• 1:38:00
  This is better for you.
• 1:38:02
  So I've got beef with everyone
• 1:38:03
  that does that intentionally.
• 1:38:04
  Yeah.
• 1:38:04
  It's usually, it's like our biggest one,
• 1:38:06
  I would say Brad or degrees, like in the
• 1:38:09
  paid social worlds, people
• 1:38:10
  hold stuff hostage, right?
• 1:38:11
  Like they, they build it in their own ad
• 1:38:13
  account and they're in their own
• 1:38:15
  business manager and then the client like
• 1:38:17
  leaves and still there.
• 1:38:18
  It's a mess to unwind all that.
• 1:38:20
  People don't want you to hold it.
• 1:38:22
  So anyway, Jacob,
• 1:38:24
  thank you for being here.
• 1:38:25
  If people have questions,
• 1:38:26
  I can funnel them to you.
• 1:38:28
  You can always reach out to
• 1:38:29
  us, Andrew at foxwelldigital.com.
• 1:38:31
  Thanks for being on the podcast.
• 1:38:32
  Yeah.
• 1:38:32
  Thanks for having me guys.
• 1:38:34
  Thanks.
• 1:38:34
  The only way that we grow this podcast is
• 1:38:43
  by you sharing it with your friends.
• 1:38:46
  Honestly, like reviews kind of don't
• 1:38:47
  really mean anything too much anymore.
• 1:38:48
  They're really meaningful, but they don't
• 1:38:50
  do a lot for the growth of the podcast.
• 1:38:52
  Um, and so sharing YouTube links, sharing
• 1:38:54
  Spotify links, sharing Apple,
• 1:38:57
  whatever we call it under the podcast app
• 1:38:59
  now, anything you can share the
• 1:39:01
  better we're going to be guys, anything
• 1:39:04
  else you want to say on this?
• 1:39:05
  Yeah.
• 1:39:06
  Please go check us out on YouTube, rack
• 1:39:07
  up those views for us.
• 1:39:08
  We'd love to see it.
• 1:39:09
  And then subscribe.
• 1:39:10
  Make sure to
• 1:39:10
  subscribe on YouTube as well.
• 1:39:12
  And I relentlessly refresh
• 1:39:13
  the YouTube comments because it
• 1:39:14
  dictates my mental health for the day.
• 1:39:15
  So please say
• 1:39:16
  something nice about all of us.
• 1:39:19
  Thank you everyone.
• 1:39:20
  Thanks everybody for listening.
• 1:39:20
  Honestly.