Latest / Surviving-ISH Podcast / When the American Flag Feels Like a Warning: Books, True Crime & Drawing Political Boundaries |

Transcript

When the American Flag Feels Like a Warning: Books, True Crime & Drawing Political Boundaries | · Surviving-ISH Podcast

• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's amazing how a single common visual cue can instantly shift my perspective.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Itch Podcast.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm David and I'm joined by our friend Jonna.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Jonna.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Hello.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: How are you, my love?
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: I am doing my best.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I need to be, I need to just hit record the minute we jump on because even if the things we talk about don't fit into the episode, honestly, they could be some good reels.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like our struggle is real.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like I know that we're always raw and real, but we have a bit of a structure that we follow, you know, when we hit record.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: And the things that we were discussing in just the 15 minutes before we hit record, I was like, we're both in the same mental place right now.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so with that being said, what is your ish?
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: My little ish.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's been so ishy lately that I could have all of the ishes.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I'm a bookworm.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: We all know I'm a bookworm.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: If you've watched any episodes with me, this is not a fake background and it's much more expensive than you guys can see.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I decided to start cataloging my books using this amazing app, which is side note really funny because we have a running bet now on how many books I have.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that would be fun, David, if anyone wants to participate in um the running bet of how many books I have.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, here, we'll just do a little quick boo to do do.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: Have you read them all?
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it keeps going ta-da.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: And there's another short shelf on that side of the room that has more um school textbooks, psychological stuff because I'm studying psychiatry.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I decided to do a rearrange while I was um scanning all my books in with this app, which is awesome because I like scan the barcode.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: Some of my books are too old to scan the barcode.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's been extra fun.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: But I rearranged and now I have two entire empty shelves.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: Pardon my dogs.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I have two entire empty shelves now.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: So aesthetically, it's really frustrating now because now I have two naked shelves.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so I went yesterday to try to hunt down some books, and I did not do well, and that is not a thing that happens.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm on the hunt for books that I need to have.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: And every time I go to buy a book, I pick one up, and my husband goes, Was that on your list?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, be quiet, sir.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: Don't you have a deal.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: I have a couple of questions.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: The books that are on the shelf are they the one they're the ones you've already read.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: So what happens when you buy new books that you haven't read?
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do you know where to place those to know that you haven't read them yet in their next line?
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't often buy books that I haven't already read.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of times I will buy them on Kindle and I'll read them on my Kindle, and then if I loved it, I'll buy it.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I also have Goodreads, which is like a tracking app.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I know what I do and don't read.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, so so I have a couple of suggestions.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: We have people on our show that are authors of books that share their story and their journey, and they love to sign them and send us copies.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so maybe one of the shelves could be the signed copies of our listeners that have written a book.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: And love that.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so one of the shelves is for when you get them in, you know, you put it there for your next to read.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: That can be fun.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: That would be super awesome.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm um, for those of you who haven't seen that episode, I'm a uh troubled teen industry survivor, and I have a very extensive list.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to collect all of the memoirs I can find written by people who have survived the industry.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I have a chunk of a shelf right now already that I'm working on doing that.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's on the less fiction, more academic bookshelf on the other side of the room.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: But um I actually have two more that should be arriving today.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because I have I have this shelving unit over here that no one can really see, and I can't really flip the camera to see it, but maybe I can take a picture of it.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: But I have received in the four or five years I've been podcasting, I received so many books from people who love that, you know, will autograph them and send them to me.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I truly like, I I will admit, I'm not much of a reader until winter.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: And in the winter time, you know, I'm like, I want some crop chili, yep, and a good book, you know, and so so I have I have this show over here that has books that people have sent me, and I've read some of them from beginning to end.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: Some of them I still have like I've read like a chapter and marked the chapter that I've read, you know, and and then I have like this teddy bear that a listener made for me that has all these affirmations on the yeah, like and so like I have this whole like collage thing over here, and I feel like I feel like those two shelves, especially with the new chapter that you're entering in your life, just in the podcast world with with we we've discussed there's a podcast that you're gonna be hosting alone coming out soon, and we're not we we don't have a release date on that, but I think that's require me to pull my head out of my butt and record some.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's been a weird it's the end of summer life shit happening, right?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like we we got a lot of end of summer stuff happening until we get and I just finished midterms, just signed up for a new semester today.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's been a lot.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I think those two bottom shelves, not to mention how they're not on camera view, right?
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not gonna be an eyesore, like why are these empty?
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: Although I know our OCD, but knowing that uh people are gonna be sending things for you to read and maybe review or or discuss or to support and promote and having those two shelves designed for that, like I love that idea.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so Paris Hilton, if you happen to be listening, look, she follows me on TikTok, right?
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to remember attack her.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to have a signed copy of your memoir.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: It was the first second, sorry, Alan Knoll was the first one that I collected, but it was the second one that I read.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: And man, it gave me life.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: My poor husband, every five minutes, I was like, Oh my god, babe, listen.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I would read him a chunk.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: And we were on a cruise, which made it funnier because you know, he's sitting there with the drink in his hand, soaking up the sun, and I'm reading like some hardcore like life trauma stuff.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it was he was like, What why?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: Why is this what you read?
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's what I read.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I'll fall asleep to true crime documentaries, you know.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: That was one of the first things you and I bonded over.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like there, there's that whole meme of like the partner, the spouse.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: We're like, should I worry that my spouse has fallen asleep peacefully during a true crime documentary?
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then she scooped out his eye with a spoon.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's a good way to use a spoon.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: I hate spoons, but I think what it is.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: I know for me, when I watch these true crime documentaries, I there there's even if the case isn't solved, there are either the main survivor, or even if the person, the victim, did not survive, there are people that are fighting for justice and oh my god, yes, celebrating their name, yes, and making sure that we say their name.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so for me as a victim of someone that was breaths away from taking the last one, knowing that I have people in my life that they would have been on dateline, they would have been on an news article, they they they would have made sure that you said my name, even if the next morning you didn't remember my name, but in that moment you said it, you know.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I get that.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: And but luckily I'm on this side of the coin where I can remind you of not just my name, but the other people that maybe are not in a place to have the voice that that I'm trying to have, you know, and so so I think when we when we find comfort in these books, so I think that when we read these books or watch these TV shows, it's because we can relate and we find comfort in the fact that we are fighting because we are still here, yeah.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: We also find comfort in knowing there may be one or one hundred people fighting for us if we did not get to fight for ourselves with.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a beautiful thing.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: I love that you know, my my ex, he hadn't been through.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, we we we do not compare trauma, right?
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: But he hadn't been through any kind of trauma like I have been through, because every trauma is different, and so as as much as he loved and supported me through it and wanted to understand it, he had questions, right?
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: He was like, I'm learning about people being triggered.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, how are you watching Dateline or Unsolved Mysteries before Ben not being triggering to you?
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: There was that like, and I love that, I respect that, right?
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I had this conversation with him, of I hear the victims or or the survivors of that were also victims of this person who lost her life standing up and and allying for them is comforting.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: I so get that.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: I will watch a lot of the troubled teen documentaries and things like that, and yet we were watching, it wasn't this past season, it was the one before criminal minds, and there was a very TTI type of arc in that fictional story, and my husband could literally feel me tensing and was like, Are you okay?
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, dude, this one's hitting me hard.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: I don't because it's fiction, and so you're thinking less maybe about the actual people, and your mind wanders a little more, runs a little more free, because you never know where it's gonna go with fictional story.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, the documentaries, there's some type of closure, whether even if there's not been an arrest or incarceration or something of that nature, like you were saying, there's still people talking about it, and that does bring some amount of comfort, that does bring some solace that and now they're in my head too.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, except for when I'm watching Ed Geen's story, which I have been on Netflix.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: I watched one recently about a woman who disappeared on a cruise ship, and this was years ago, and there's still sightings of her because they think that she's been trafficked.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it's in I'm gonna have to look up her name because in You know it's what I'm talking about.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and listener, please forgive me, but I have a lot of podcasts, and I'm a guest on a lot of podcasts, and I was a guest a few weeks ago on a true crime podcast that I used to be a co-host of, and we cover this case.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's so funny.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm so upset that I cannot remember her name.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: So one second is her name.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: I just watched that not long ago.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's something, something is missing.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: Amy Bradley.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, yep, yep, and that's oh, I will add that episode from the speculating modley about crime, uh, the swipe pod.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: I won't add that episode to her show notes because we had a lovely discussion about it because there so that's so crazy that that you're bringing that up.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was uh I can't imagine not knowing and thinking that she's still probably out there and God knows what that poor girl's been through.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: And we're cruise fanatics too.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we cruise uh now while I'm in school, only once a year, but normally it was multiple times a year, and that's our same apartment.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: We are and so I wonder next time I'm on a ship, because we're supposed to go with our daughter and son-in-law next time, who is this adorable, cute little petite, looks like she's 12, except for she's 26, right?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: She's gonna be on the show too, right?
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: She is.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: She is.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be a fun one because she's she's a catastrophe.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: I she tells me I'm ridonculus, and I tell her she's a catastrophe.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: She's freaking fantastic, and her her lifelong ish is pretty funny the way that she handles it.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: Has great humor to it.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she's she's wonderful.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: I know I can't I can't wait to come back.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: So okay, so here's my ish for the week.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's gonna lead okay, total sidebar ADHD, what have, but I went in to creating a podcast with I'm not gonna be political and I can't find anything in today's America that isn't political.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: I can't even pull it on to some it is not, and I I have a network where there's other shows and I respect boundaries of people, and but I'm not mad at the fact that every episode that I've had with you, Jonna, has been political.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: The very I think the very first one that we did was the day after Charlie Kirk.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think that was our oh, that was our first non-intro one.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: It was, and it's really funny that hopefully that one airs before this one.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: Oh good.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: So you started that one with I don't want this whole episode to be about this, but then we both had so many feelings about it, yeah, and so much inner turmoil over not the man aside, right?
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: But everything surrounding what that meant on a bigger scale for the future, the precedent that was set, the people's reactions on both sides.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like we had a lot to say, and all of a sudden we were an hour later, and we went, oh, yeah, it was all about that.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a thing.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so I've received a lot of emails because on my personal social media it's all political.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's like that, and you have big feelings, and you are you're a marginalized group living in the south in a very right-leaning state.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, you're gonna have big feelings.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm a basic white woman living in Texas whose uterus is closed for business.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I have big feelings also, and yet I'm not as directly impacted on my daily as you are.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't mean I'm not aware.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean that, and actually I've gotten a lot more aware lately.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, see, and I disagree with that because just because it cannot personally happen to you and your body, your children are now oh, yeah.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so I do think that is a direct effect, right?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like I agree, and if two of my best friends are still childbearing age, like they both have three-year-olds.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: Luckily, you are in a financial situation with you and your spouse to where if your child was pregnant and it was life-threatening, we'd get on an airplane or in a car.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: You could go somewhere, yeah.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: We would, but how many people don't have that?
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: Put a plug here because a lot of the larger companies, and probably a lot of people don't know this, if they weren't working where they work now at the time that Roe v.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: Wade was overturned.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of big companies have a clause, if you have their insurance, that they will facilitate getting you to another state if needed.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: For I know for certain my husband's company will take care of travel and help facilitate if one of my husband's non-existent sperm, because he had a vasectomy like 24 years ago, but if he had a geriatric one in there somewhere and I became pregnant, they would take care of getting both of us to another state, and they even have a uh they would provide legal representation if the state tried to come after him.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because in Texas, they can't do anything to me for seeking outside, but as a support person, you can be fined$100,000 for going with someone$50,000 or$100,000.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's ridiculous.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: But what we have to remember and think about is, and this is not an insult to the company because there's no way around this, right?
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: But you cannot call his company at three o'clock in the morning when there's a crisis happening saying, I need a plane ticket, a bus ride, a car fare right now.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna have to cover it.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: And luckily, the company, you can provide the receipts and they're gonna reimburse.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: But and and this is not everyone has that, right?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: I just wanted to throw it out there that a lot more people probably have something like that, yeah.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, 100%.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not negating that, but what but what terrifies me is there are people like I have um some cousins of mine, they're trumpers, they make a little over a hundred thousand dollars a year, but they live paycheck to paycheck, they have three kids between daycare and and all their daycare is more than their mortgage, yep.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: And and you hear that a family you know makes six figures, and you think, oh, well, they're okay.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: No, it doesn't mean that it does not mean that, and so if their daughter, who is their oldest daughter who's turning 17, if she needed for whatever reason an abortion, I would probably one of the first phone calls they made to help them get somewhere.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: Now, they will tell me that they'll pay me back, they'll tell me that my company uh will reimburse me and and I'll reimburse you.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: And and I'm not gonna lie, I would not punish the child for the because of the parents.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: But what I want to be very clear about is I supported you when I voted for Kamala.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where it's hard.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: And you and I had a really great conversation that I don't want to super get into several weeks ago, right after that episode that we were just referencing about Charlie Kirk.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: One of my best friends was talking recently about her in-laws.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um I guess it's it's her brother in law's family.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: And And they were all hardcore Trump supporters.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: And on a recent family get together where she was with them, she was approached by two of them that said, I get it now.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: And that's great.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: And hindsight's 2020, right?
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: You gotta hurt you didn't give a fuck about me.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: You didn't give a fuck about the people that are been that that are not beneath you, but that you think that are, which is why I'm proudly wearing, and I'll show you right now, this shirt.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: And it says immigrants are not criminals, but the president is.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: It pisses me the fuck off.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so we got more into my bigger ish than my small ish, but it leads into, but this kind of brings it back around, Johnny, is my surviving ish is when I see an American flag, when I see someone wearing a pen or a bumper sticker or a shirt, I don't think of my great-grandpa who proudly fought in World War II and and who talked about it bravely until the day that he died and made sure that we understand how to respect the flag.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think about that anymore.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: The minute I see a flag, I think you're dangerous.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's so sad.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: It breaks my fucking heart.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: It has become for you the equivalent of 10, 15 years ago seeing someone with a hoodie at night and crossing the street, right?
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, honestly, that's regardless of you know, could you see if it's a man or woman, could you see the race, whatever, all of that aside, you saw someone with the hood up, dark hoodie at night, you crossed the road because you didn't know what was going on over there.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: That has become, man, it's so sad to me.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll even bring it back to religion, like people who have an ixus, the fish, or other types of um religious bumper stickers.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: I immediately think, huh, I'm a churched human, I am a person of faith, and yet it's become such an ugly, dirty thing that it's become so non-inclusive and elitist and legal legalistic, and I can band-and all day with that, that I see those things now, and I go, uh, I don't see a kindred spirit.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really, really sad that this symbol of our nation, of the coming together of 50 states, of the original 13, and everything that our flag symbolizes has become something totally different.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it's um, I said not too long ago, I've never ever in my life, and this is coming from someone who's lived in other countries, I've never had the experience of not being proud American.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not that I haven't given up hope.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's a little harder right now, and I'm in a lot of like Reddit forums where I talk with people all over the world, mostly about books, let's be honest, and I'll oh Texas, and immediately they get an idea of who I am, or just even American, and they're like, oh, and I that's upsetting.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: We're supposed to be a melting pot.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: We're used to be able to hold our head up high, being American and and going to another country and someone recognizing us as an American, that was a beautiful privilege and amazing thing.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: People inspired, yep, and now we're a laughing stock.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: And even though I'm a gay man, and even though you're a woman living in the states that we live in, people immediately want to go to your MAGA.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: And if anyone follows my personal social media, even though I've been professionally advised not to be so outspoken about where I stand politically, but I made the decision to be.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: And here's why.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: Or I'm sorry, by MAGA.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: Non-MAGA, they like it.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, sure, sure.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: But I get I wake up to a lot of DMs.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: Every now and then there's someone who has balls enough, I guess, to where they will make a comment.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then as non-MAGA people respond, they're like, oh well, you're the problem, I'm being attacked.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: And my thing is, is okay.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: If you are not able to handle us throwing facts at you to where you feel attacked, if you're not able to handle that, how the fuck would you handle ice?
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because they're coming for you too.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because here's the thing it's women that are doing it.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's the women that are defending this.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that is shocking.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's so like what in the trad wife is happening over here.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then they want to throw up on my face.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: They want to throw up, they have the audacity to throw up on my face that David when your attack happened, I sent you food and I sent you thoughts and I sent you prayers.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: Congrats.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: And when I voted for Kamala, I did that for you.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think that um, and I'm speaking for many who are close to me, right?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: That that I've had deep conversations with.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: They didn't think.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I understand why you feel the way you do.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: I 100% do, and you're not wrong.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: I will say for myself, I was a very uneducated voter always.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: And we've started as a society voting for a human instead of an idea.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: I don't get it.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think I actually referenced this when we were talking about Charlie Kirk.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: What in the sports team is happening over here?
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: When did we start treating it like sports rivals?
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I'm a Vikings fan.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like Packers.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: I that doesn't mean that I would do something voting to take out the state of Wisconsin, right?
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's never gonna happen because there are plenty of great humans who I call friends that are Packers fans.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: I give them never-ending crap about it.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: They give it right back to me.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's all good natured.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: We've moved way beyond that in the political sphere where it's become very like North and South Civil War.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't understand how we got here.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like I can think back and watch it escalating.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: I just I still don't get it.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard to comprehend how we got to where we are.
• 32:07
  unknown: Yeah.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: I th I think in a lot of cases it's uh it's a uh trigger response.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: What I'm finding is that there are so many people that I know personally, so many people that I've interviewed, uh, you know, podcast-wise, that are mega, and they have been a part of some kind of cult.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, they think or that they have uh dismantled that, and maybe they have with with that, but they've been very easily drawn back into that.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's comfortable, yeah, and I'm not trying to this is what's so fucked up, Jonna, is I want to allow grace, I want to, but at the same time, it's I'm telling you, people who are no more and better than me are telling you the answers are right there uh at what's happening, and you're still choosing, which which maybe I I've never been involved in a cult, right?
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't have that mentality, and and so I'm trying to allow grace for that, but I'm I'm having a hard time because I love everyone, and the fact that like there are minorities women, they're they're the Latinos for Trump, the gays for Trump, the women for Trump, the small dicks for Trump, which is pretty much every Republican that I know.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: I want to have grace, but my grace is giving another inch to my demise.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: So when do I get to draw a line and a boundary and say, you know what?
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: No, I have this person who has commented on several of my socials where there's been some disputes, and I try to be respectful.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: This person she does not have teeth because of meth.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: She is on food stamps because of her addictions, and she supports Trump more than some of the the white men that I know and I just can't wrap my mind around it.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, baby, you understand that you're next in this camp, you're next to be done with.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean this with empathy, right?
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think Trump is gonna look at you with no teeth in your mouth, no dental insurance, yeah, and help you?
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's right before we started recording.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: I had said that on Halloween, sitting around with my best friend, um, bless her neighbor from across the street, who is invites them to church all the time.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know her that well.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: She's really sweet, she's super fun and creative.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: She's an immigrant, a Caucasian immigrant, but an immigrant nonetheless.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: And she doesn't know me either.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: We're at birthday parties together, right?
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: For my bestie's kid.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: But it came, autism came up, and my daughter was like, Yeah, touch with autism, and me being a psych student.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, dude, you haven't been diagnosed, you don't get to say that.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: And she looked at me and she was like, You don't get to have it both ways.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: You told me not to get diagnosed, and I was like, in this administration, please don't.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: And personally, my I was so head in the sand, just politically in general, until recently.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: Partially because I've had to take a bunch of government and politics classes for school.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's really helped open my eyes to just a lot of things.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: As to how I participate, as to how I stay informed, and how I have to do better.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because regardless of who I have or haven't voted for in the past, I have to do better going forward.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, tomorrow, guess what I'll be doing?
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: Voting, because it's local election.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: And there are 17 things on the ballot.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: I have never once in my voting life voted during a local election.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, why would I only vote for the president and just let the state be damned?
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: That impacts me first.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: And now I have become much more informed, and I am choosing to, I still very much limit how, where, and when I get my information and news because I can't digest it all the time.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: My anxiety would just go through the roof, and I will ruminate on it, and I will just think about if I had a billion dollars, what I could change, and I can't because I don't, and there's nothing I can do, and oh my god, and then the spiral starts, and then I'm like, huh, and then I curl up with a book and I don't do anything for three days because can't.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm still very careful with how I receive that information.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: However, I'm choosing to seek out the information on my own terms now.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so if someone says to me now, oh my god, did you hear about what happened?
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: Da-da-da-da-da, chances are I actually heard about it instead of a year ago, I would have been like, The hell are you talking about?
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because I would have had no clue that anything was even going on.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: And now I do, and that's why I think that your story to get more informed and involved.
• 38:50
  unknown: Yeah.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that's about voting for a human.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I think that your story is so important, right?
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like you you come from a cult mentality to where if you were not in the mental place that you were, or that yeah, that you were at this election, you could have easily been MAGA.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: And something tells me about you, Jonna, that you would still be on every podcast episode that I invite you on and argue argue with me.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, sure.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: Defending MAGA, you know, because you have to be easily, yeah, right, because you have that strong when you believe something, you fucking believe it.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: Damn straight I do.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: And you you're you're I mean this as a compliment, even though it sounds like I'm defending a MAGA mindset, but but when you believe something, you believe it, and you fight hard for it.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's why I think that people like you are the ones that need to be the loudest.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: I lead as a white man.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: I lead as a white man that has some financial stability.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um honestly uh uh my family receives a bit.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're not millionaires or billionaires by any means, but we see but we see a bit of of uh the Donald Trump tax benefit toward us.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: In our house, yeah.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: I identify as a trophy wife.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's a running joke because you know, I'm not working while I'm going to school full-time because I have that um ability through some choices that we made, and we're fine.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: I shopped for books all day yesterday, right?
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: We're fine, right?
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: And what like blows my mind is is people are like, I'm tired of paying, you know, giving people food stamps for them to go out and get iPhones and press on nails and uh and all this shit.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: And they're saying the things that have the race, you know, when they're like, I don't want to pay for your weave.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so so you're you're throwing out these things that are that are racial and demographic.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: When in reality, last year we paid$39 a person for taxes for food stamps for those programs, yeah.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: And people, this is weird$39 on Zoom with you in the past hour.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, honey, I spend$39 on Starbucks a month, easy.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes a week.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: A month?
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say a month, like well, I don't leave my house a lot because school from here.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: But we get it delivered, which means we have to tip, which means which means my six dollar coffee have delivered in my house for something.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's only six dollars.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: Mine's nine fifteen.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: I wish I was drinking what you're drinking.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, uh well, I don't know the reprise because when you think about like the the coffee that I bought that maybe will cost me 950 Starbucks, by the time I get it here, oh yeah, 20 because I have to spend$50 to get free delivery.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's these upcharges, right?
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I still fucking do it daily.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: And what makes me so mad is when people are like, I'll be fine paying for their groceries, but not the Debbie cakes, not the ding-dongs, not the fruity pebbles.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: I want your kids to have a fucking treat.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking about both sides of this very interestingly because I was a single parent when I had Danica.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: I was on Food Steams, I was on WIC, I was on Medicare and Medicaid, because I was a single Pringle that was pregnant, right?
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's what it was.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I got all that assistance and I made it stretch as far as I possibly could.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I still bought treats, right?
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because just because I had been engaged, and then he broke off the engagement the day he found out I was pregnant, I should not be penalized and never get to eat chocolate again just because I got dumped.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: On the other hand, I did home health care when our daughter was really young.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I say our because I got married when she was five months old and I'm still happily married, just had her 26th anniversary.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: Whoop, and um, she's ours, whether she's biologically his or not.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: So don't even at me on that because I will fight you, and so will she, and so will he.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I had this client that was all government benefits.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: She had had a meth addiction and was permanently disabled.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I was her home healthcare nurse.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_00: And She sent me to the store.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: And man, I was poor AF at the time.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like my husband and I were newlyweds.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: So paying for childcare while trying to go to school and work.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: And in and she sent me to the store with her food stamp card.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: Not food stamp card, but like her government benefits, because food stamps wouldn't have paid for this, but her just her regular monthly benefits to buy her lobster.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then wanted me to cook it.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: Bitch, I'd never even had lobster.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know how to cook a damn lobster.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I sure as hell didn't want to go to the store and run your card for a lobster when they're looking at me like I'm crazy and part of the problem.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: Do I think that she still deserved lobster every once in a while?
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: I had that moment where I felt, what the hell?
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: And yet, on the other hand, why doesn't she deserve lobster sometimes?
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: And here's my thing with that.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: In in most cases, people that are on government assistance they don't they've had a hard time.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: And in some cases, maybe it's because they also don't know how to manage what they have, right?
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so so when they're given a lump sum, when that when their monthly flu food stamps come and it's like you get$150 or whatever it is of free groceries, and like I've been hungry for three weeks, or I've I've ate ramen noodles just to give my kids a hamburger.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so we want to immediately think that the one time that that first week of that month, they're like, you know what, I want I want a lobster.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: Now, do I think that people absolutely deserve a good, lovely meal that they spurge on, you know, once a month?
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: But where I think that we're we also uh fail as an educated educational society is the classes I needed in school are the ones I do not have.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: I've never like I'm still looking for X, never found X that this school spent days and weeks and hours tell me about.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: You were talking to the girl in statistics right now, right?
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: My Lord and Savior Sigma that I'm dealing with right now, and not in the alpha gen way, like the O with the thing, and it means a thing, and I can't even tell you what it means without looking at a flashcard.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like what I would have loved is for someone to say, you know what?
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: You get a financial burden, you and your spouse lost your job.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you have two kids that average this, you have this, you have this, you have this in the bank, and you qualify for this tidbit of financial assistance, even though for years you and your family have been paying into taxes and you get this amount.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: How do we make that work?
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and those are the classes that the flower baby didn't help me learn how to care for my child.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: It apparently was supposed to teach me not to drop her, which I did once, but I caught her, so it's whatever.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_00: She'll be fine.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: She'll be fine.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: She is fine.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: Was it was it what the joke slipped my mind.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it was the Tylenol.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: The joke slipped my mind.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: I felt like I had a good one.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it was late 90s, early 2000s when they stopped doing this, but I actually took business math where I learned budgeting and balancing a checkbook, and counting money back was part of that, which this generation can't freaking do.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_00: God forbid I was in retail for 22 years.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_00: If our registers went down, they were like, but we have to close.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, what do you mean we have to close?
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: We've got this shit.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: Stop it.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't, but I don't know how to give back change.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: What do you mean?
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was foreign to me.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, what do you mean you don't know how to give back change?
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: So even as a district manager, I found myself working registers a few times because they didn't know how to give out change.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: Most overpaid cashier in the world that day.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_00: But here's a lot of these discussions that no one taught her how to fill out a W-2.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, insurance paperwork.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_00: Dear God, is just what do I pick?
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: How do I plan for a financial future?
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: We all hear, like in our teens, probably are familiar with terms like 401k, but what does that really do?
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: Is it really the best thing?
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_00: Is sorry, knows it.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: Ooh, things like our daughter knows that you don't ever have a card that doesn't give you something back.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: We put a ton of their stuff for their wedding on our Norwegian cruise line card because that's our cruise line that we go with.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: And we paid off the bill every month when it came.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I got a double upgrade.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: I booked an inside room and got a balcony upgrade for free because of those points.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_00: Once I hit the that mark, I switched to my American Airlines card and started putting things on that.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: So the flight was covered too.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: My grandpa was a great businessman, and he always told me he said, he said, this is a cliche saying, but I want you to remember it.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: Scratch the back that will scratch yours.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: Meaning exactly what you're just saying, right?
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_01: You're you're putting your daughter's$30,000 plus dollar wedding on this credit card, but cute$30,000.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I didn't I didn't want to throw out too much of inflation.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: It was beautiful.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: 100%, but just respectful rounding purposes.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_01: I was number, right?
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_01: But you put on this credit card, yeah, but it was a credit card that you knew that you're gonna get something from.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: So then when you and your husband was able to be like, wedding's over there on their honeymoon, like empty nesting, let's get away together.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: We get now the credit card is scratching our back, and we get this.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yes, we were on our 11-day cruise before they got back from our honeymoon.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: Listen, like we were done because I did more work than they did for that.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but oh my god, it was beautiful and it was so worth it, and it was perfection, whatever, anyways.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I love I love this conversation, and now that we could go on and on about it.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh no, never, never, and that's why I okay, so to kind of go back into my ish into the closing kind of full circle deal is I had been advised as I started becoming more into a public eye, even on a small platform, that I need to be very quiet about where I am politically.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I could respect that and see that 15 years ago.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a very that's very unauthentic.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and I could see it when when it was a presidential election to where whether you're Democrat or Republican, whoever won, you're gonna dislike something about either of them, but our rights and our safety and our children were protected.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_01: This changes everything.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: This the past 10 years, any since Donald Trump has been political, it's changed everything.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so I had to make the decision.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: Do I want to risk any kind of fame or or or viral being filtered?
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_01: Or do I want am okay with two or three likes on my socials, but the two or three likes are the people that needed to hear what I needed, what I fucking said, what we said, and that is where I'm at because with with with the DMs and the emails that I get there's some that are magic that that shud and shame me.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then there are there there's a side of people saying, I'm triggered right now because I've been sexually assaulted, and statistics show that if you've been sexually assaulted once, it's gonna happen again.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_00: And you're more vulnerable to it.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_01: And even some people that had the tendency, thoughts, desires to sexually assault, they had a bit of a filter on them that is now gone.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_00: Out the window, we become uncivilized.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_01: So for me to stay true to myself of when when I survived what I survived, and I said, you know what, I have the support team, I have the voice, I'm not gonna hunger down and hide.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, Bestie, I have flight benefits.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_00: I am not far away, and I'm mean.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_00: When you talk about you do, you have the support people.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I see me outside the pit.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_00: I will come and throw someone.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I already know.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: I know you know, and so I feel that I would be unauthentic if I didn't recognize the fact that this administration are the same people that wanted me dead, that raped me.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I told you this, we went in a group.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh was my husband and I, our daughter, our son-in-law, and our bonus kid.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_00: Our bonus kid is asexual and um gender fluid and perfect, and I love race for every part of who race is.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_00: And knowing that, like retrospectively now, knowing that someone in our group canceled out race's vote without thinking about who race was and what that meant, hurts me so much now.
• 55:49
  unknown: Yeah.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that we've forgotten how to do critical thinking because we let the media, whether it be news or social media or a podcast or whatever, tell us how to think.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's gotten so easy to let everyone else think for us and the loudest person in the room think for us.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_00: And something I really appreciated about going to school this time around at this age is having to freaking redo English one and two, you know, on a college level.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: Has become much more about critical thinking and processing and learning how to find the truth in the middle, um, learning how to vet sources.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I just encourage everyone, I don't, I do care who you vote for, right?
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_00: At the end of the day, if you have done your actual due diligence, not CNN, not Fox News, not some political commentator on either side, but if you've read scholarly journal articles, if you have read, my husband tried to argue with me about something a while back, and I was like, he's like, where are you getting this information?
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, from the White House website.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_00: And he was like, say what now?
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, so it's on the White House's website.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_00: I went to the source because that's what I do.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_00: And he knows me better than that.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_00: I am a researcher at heart.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's what I do.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_00: I went straight to the source, and everyone's saying no, no, no, on the MAGA side that no, that's not what they're saying.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's not what this is.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's the side that told me it's exactly what they were saying and exactly what it was.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_00: I went to their damn website.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I just I have to leave it.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_00: I have to believe that this has been very eye-opening.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I am, I'm an eternal optimist.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_00: I can't help myself because I do want the best for everyone.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that includes seeing the good and spreading the love.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I've been the mom at Pride with the free mom hug shirt, and that's just who I am.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_00: I want everyone to be happy.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_00: So what I can say is actually do your due diligence, shut out all the noise.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_00: Take 45 minutes.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_00: You can learn so much in that amount of time, and really read.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_00: Actually dive in.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_00: And y'all can reach out.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_00: I will help you find how to find those articles, how to make sure that they're non-biased and it's getting harder and harder to find.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_00: But actually learn the truth of what the people are saying, not just what they're yelling at you, but what they're actually saying, what they're actually doing, not what their Twitter thumbs are saying to misdirect you on Kofi Fi while they're doing something crazy over here.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_00: Get to the truth, let that inform your vote, not all the noise around you.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_00: It'll change everything.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I love you.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_01: I love you.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so all right, listener.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_01: I know the platform is supposed to be more lighthearted and fun.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_01: And John and I, we have fun with this.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we do.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_01: But we but when we get on, especially when it's political stuff, we do talk about it just be like this, man.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes you gotta get it out, and that's okay too.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_01: And and and what I want what I want to remind people that well, I shouldn't say remind people, what I want to tell people that from my point of view is sometimes what is fun for me is releasing and opening my mind and understanding that the fight that I'm fighting for the people that are fighting against me is exhausting, but I'm fucking doing it.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_01: I get called a faggot daily.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_01: I especially since it's been the anniversary this the at the recording of this episode is November 3rd.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the last week in October is you know was the anniversary of my attack, and I received many emails of people saying that too bad the job wasn't completed, and you know that's okay.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_01: I want to receive those because those people could easily block me, but they're listening and they're fighting me via keyboard when truly they're fighting themselves because they know the difference of right and wrong.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I am so proud of you for looking at it that way.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_00: And kudos to you.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's the bigger person right there.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um you said something earlier that I had to come back to.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because what I heard you say is you couldn't be silent, because sometimes inaction is action, and don't get me wrong, sometimes silence is just silence, and that's okay too.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_00: But a lot of times silence is an action.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna stay out of this because and I don't want my great aunt Frederica to see that I'm doing something that she might see against the church or how I was raised or whatever.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's inauthentic, too.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_00: And you never know who your message will reach.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_01: So here's my thought on that Aunt Ethrika, or whatever you named her.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_00: I said Frederica because I almost said I actually have an Aunt Sue, so that was not that was problematic.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_00: Perfect.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_01: What I wanted to remind people is would Aunt Frederica be quiet if this happened in her generation?
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_00: No, sorry, Bob, she would not.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, she probably was out there burning her bra, and we just don't now.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_01: Where I will agree with you on, and obviously, I cannot speak too much in depth into this, I wouldn't feel right doing it without a uh without a a person of color, especially a female, you know, black woman with us, um, which I would love.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think my friend Kiana is going to be joining us soon for this conversation.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_01: But if there's a a group of people that has fought and been loud and fought the hardest, it's black women.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_01: And if there's a time for them to say, you know what, I did my part, I'm gonna sit down, I'm gonna shut up.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_01: Now's the time for it, and I respect it.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_01: Now is when the white people need to stand up.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm tired.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm tired of black women or black women, can you imagine black women fighting?
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_01: Imagine how the black woman fucking feels.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because here's the thing when it comes to minorities, especially when it comes to black women, they're not fighting for black women's rights, they're fighting for everyone's rights because they're not free until we are all free.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not free until we are all free.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_01: You are not free until we are all free.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_01: So black women are not standing up shouting that black women deserve this and black women deserve that.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_01: They're up shouting for everyone.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and it's funny that you bring up women again because we think about women's suffrage and sitting on the back of the bus and refusing to get up.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, it sounds familiar.
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_00: This group of women on a tirade about grapefruit because of South Africa, and and and and the story I can't tell, I can't do it justice at all.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then this man starts, this black man starts coming and standing with them as they're protesting conflict grapefruit, right?
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_00: And turns out that he knows Nelson Mandela, and then MLK like gets involved in this somehow, and this is like three women standing on a corner in Ireland saying, Stop getting grapefruit from South Africa, and it turns into this huge thing.
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_00: And the joke at the end is like Irish people don't even like grapefruit.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why the hell did this even come about?
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_00: A thing because three women saw a problem, and it might have actually been two, I don't remember, but these couple of women saw something that had nothing to do with them, and they didn't even like grapefruit, but they saw a problem and they spoke for it, and it became this huge, huge thing, and imagine.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine if we use our voices and stand up.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_00: And like the TTI is a good example for me.
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_00: I will not be silenced.
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_00: I've had TikTok mute me for things I've said in podcasts, just in clips.
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_00: I remember Jen shared one, and they bleeped out everything I had to say.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, oh hell no.
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_00: I went on a tirade.
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_00: There are so many things that I just can't be quiet about anymore.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_00: So do it respectfully.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_00: Remember sandbox 101 because people stop listening as soon as you start calling names.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_00: Be the bigger person.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_00: Do it with love.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_00: And stop that sell of grapefruit.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_01: What I want to throw out just real quick is to the listener if you would want to email us, if you were a black woman, an indigenous woman, um, and and I would love to have a round table discussion because I want to be an ally.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I am an ally, but that doesn't mean that I am doing and don't know all the things.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_01: For instance, it it is triggering to a lot of people, um, to a lot of women of color, for someone to be like to use the word angry, like, why are you so angry, woman?
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_01: And like I get that, but there's that part of me uh the as a minority on a different lens that I want people to look at me and be like, uh, why are you angry?
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'm gonna tell you I'm angry, bitch.
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like I want to tell you for them, it's become such a character, exactly.
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_01: And and so so, even though I know and respect that and I get it, and I know that there's just something that isn't there's enough click in me to know why, but why do I want to I I guess the question that I have is why do I want someone to look at me and be like, oh, don't get angry?
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe it's just the fact that when a black woman, quote unquote, uh, I'm using the quotations there for any of the viewers that can't see us, um, maybe it's because their anger is not appropriate or not well placed or whatever, who knows?
• 1:08:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_01: All I know is as a minority, as a gay man, when I hear these white people say, and I'm white, right?
• 1:09:00
  SPEAKER_01: And when I hear these white people say, Oh, this black woman's so angry, I can see where the the black woman takes offense to that 100%.
• 1:09:14
  SPEAKER_01: But what I also see coming from a white person is they're scared of you, and not because you're threatening in a harmful way, but because you're threatening in a way that you should be, and maybe we should stop characterizing and um assigning adjectives and start asking why instead, right?
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and and you know what?
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_01: You're right, it's like even like when when it comes like the gay community, you know, we have we have certain adjectives that come with us, right?
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so so maybe where I'm so accustomed to those that I where the it means nothing, those words mean nothing to me.
• 1:09:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, but uh so when I hear angry, you know what I mean?
• 1:10:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like I don't know, I don't know, but I just I got bougie a lot for a while, which is funny because I will jokingly say that about like I said that to you earlier about myself before we started recording.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_00: It offended the hell out of me for a really long time because they didn't know me, they didn't know my story, they knew I didn't grow up with shit, like they didn't know that, they didn't know that there were more evenings than I can count that we didn't have dinner growing up.
• 1:10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I didn't flaunt what I had, I didn't like put it in people's faces, but by god, when I could start affording a bag that wasn't from a big box store like Walmart, and I could carry a purse that was gonna last more than five minutes, and did there was a minute where I had a collection of like 20 Michael Kors bags, and I don't even carry a purse anymore.
• 1:11:09
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, the irony, it wasn't a status symbol, it was oh my god, I'm at a place where I can have something that's not gonna fall apart.
• 1:11:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I celebrated that with myself and with my husband, and there was nothing bougie about it, it was a celebration for myself of never having to wonder where my kids' dinner was gonna come from.
• 1:11:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so labels suck and they're hurtful.
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_00: And why does it have to be an angry black woman?
• 1:11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Why can't it be that woman has something to say?
• 1:11:50
  SPEAKER_00: What if we just or oh, even better, that person, because how dare I assume their pronoun or gender either, which I try to be really careful about.
• 1:12:00
  SPEAKER_00: That person seems like they have something to say.
• 1:12:03
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I should find out.
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and I think it's because like I respect the whole like pronoun thing, but I think that stigmas, especially when it comes to the word angry, when when a white person says the word angry um to a certain demographic, it's we picture, we're trained to picture a black woman.
• 1:12:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I picture?
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_00: A guy in a baseball hat with a shotgun.
• 1:12:37
  SPEAKER_00: I yeah, uh-huh.
• 1:12:39
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:12:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's shifting, and not necessarily fair either.
• 1:12:45
  SPEAKER_00: I live in Texas where I know a lot of guys with shotguns and baseball hats that 110% would be appalled if you accuse them of being a Republican.
• 1:12:55
  SPEAKER_00: It goes back to that assigning, characterizing.
• 1:13:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's what if we just let people be people?
• 1:13:06
  SPEAKER_00: I can't even tell you how many years I've been saying that.
• 1:13:09
  SPEAKER_01: But why do they have to be uh we set a podcast called What If Dot dot dot and just every day we had a a new topic of what if?
• 1:13:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like Marvel already did that.
• 1:13:19
  SPEAKER_00: We're a little slow.
• 1:13:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh well, who was it that Marvel?
• 1:13:24
  SPEAKER_00: They're bigger than us.
• 1:13:25
  SPEAKER_00: We can't, yeah, we can't fight the man.
• 1:13:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I didn't know who they were, so they can't be that great.
• 1:13:29
  SPEAKER_00: Marvel?
• 1:13:31
  SPEAKER_01: Superheroes owned by Disney.
• 1:13:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, no, we could do better.
• 1:13:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, okay, so um I'm dead.
• 1:13:40
  SPEAKER_00: This feels like we're transitioning into my say this, not that, because that could totally be a part of that.
• 1:13:48
  SPEAKER_01: I don't and I'll come on and discuss it.
• 1:13:51
  SPEAKER_01: Going on the list.
• 1:13:52
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I'm glad we had this conversation and I love all of it.
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_01: But what I as a closing, what I want to say to the listener is if you're a marginalized community, reach out.
• 1:14:08
  SPEAKER_01: Let let's have a round table discussion because I want to be an ally.
• 1:14:13
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I am, but I feel like I sometimes shelter or shield myself because I don't want to speak for a demographic that I'm I'm not.
• 1:14:27
  SPEAKER_01: But I also think that that shield is very filtered because there's still more things I could say or do.
• 1:14:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to know.
• 1:14:36
  SPEAKER_01: I want to know what I can do, how can we unite?
• 1:14:40
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I love.
• 1:14:41
  SPEAKER_01: Stronger together.
• 1:14:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I love about marginalized communities, and that's where I think a certain demographic of America is freaking the fuck out right now.