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Navigating the TAFF and Deforestation Roadmaps · The GroundWork Podcast

• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: COP 30 was something of a mixed bag.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: The meeting, which took place in Belangopara at the end of 2025, saw the largest gathering of Indigenous peoples at any COP, a success in the struggle for representation.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: But the results in terms of Indigenous peoples' priorities were mixed, with progress on issues such as land tenure, demarcation and funding, but little progress on key issues including preventing deforestation and phasing out fossil fuels.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: The COP 30 presidency, recognising that there was demand from many countries and constituencies for action on these issues, proposed two separate roadmaps set to run in parallel to the standard UNFCC processes.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: One on transitioning away from fossil fuels, and a second on halting and reversing deforestation by 2030.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: In a rapidly changing geopolitical landscape where divisions are deeply entrenched, these roadmaps may represent the key to real progress.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: The war in Iran has led to deep uncertainties on the availability of fossil fuels, and nations are quickly realizing that their reliance leaves them vulnerable.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: The countries that take concrete steps to address this first can shape the energy transition.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: At the same time, there's greater realization that all of our global life support systems rely on nature, which includes stable tropical forests, particularly in the major basins, the Amazon, the Congo Basin, and the tropical forests of Southeast Asia.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: New possibilities to influence national agendas are arising.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Indigenous peoples play a key role in their development.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: What processes will shape the roadmaps?
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: What outcomes are expected?
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: And how do we ensure Indigenous peoples are involved in every step of the way?
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Dr.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: Philippa Bailey, and this is the Groundwork Podcast.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: This episode was built on a groundwork webinar from May 14, 2026, where we brought together some key voices working on the TAF and forest roadmaps.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: First, we heard from Oscar Dasagutieres, the Secretary General of OPIAC, the National Organization for Indigenous Peoples of the Colombian Amazon.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Next, Wara Iris Ruiz Condori, a Bolivian Aymara activist and project coordinator with Indigenous Peoples Rights International, specialising in projects on climate change and biodiversity advocacy.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: And third, Ignacio Aronis, the Senior Associate for Nature and Climate Diplomacy at Earth Insight.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: This episode is born from a collaboration between Seeds for Change, Tinta and the International Climate Politics Hub, with support from the Climate and Land Use Alliance.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: Groundwork works alongside Indigenous peoples, Afro-descendant peoples, and local communities to strengthen their engagement and political influence across policy and governance spaces that shape territories, rights and collective futures.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: The end of COP 30 saw the launch of two separate roadmaps.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: The first, which I'll refer to as TAF, will map out strategies for nations to transition away from fossil fuels, as countries signed up to do at COP twenty eight in Dubai.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: The second sets the groundwork to halt and reverse deforestation, particularly in areas of key ecological value.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: We'll call that the forest roadmap.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: Both are expected to report at the end of this year at COP thirty one in Turkey.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: These roadmaps serve a dual purpose.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: They're meant to act both as a compass, showing the direction we need to go to achieve our goals, and an accelerator catalyzing the momentum required to reach those goals.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: Critically, these roadmaps are shaped in spaces that are outside of the standard UNFCCC channels and negotiations, allowing for more open formats prioritizing consultation rather than consensus based negotiations, and the inclusion of stakeholders that are sometimes excluded from UN processes.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Before we talk about the TAF roadmap, let's just back up a little.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: Even though we've known for decades that the burning of fossil fuels leads to increased carbon dioxide in the atmosphere and is the most significant driver of climate change, it's been incredibly difficult to talk about fossil fuels within the UNFCCC.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: That changed at COP twenty eight in Dubai, when for the first time the transition away from fossil fuels in a just, orderly and equitable manner, was written down in black and white in the outcome of the first global stocktake.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: The challenge has then become how to make this happen, with many countries deeply invested in fossil fuel exploitation and largely unwilling to implement a transition away.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: The COP thirty TAF roadmap offered a way out of this difficulty, bringing together countries outside the negotiations and using a meeting scheduled for April 2026 in Santa Marta, Colombia, the first international conference on transitioning away from fossil fuels as a kickstart to the process.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: So while the roadmap and the Santa Marta Conference are not the same thing, Santa Marta was an important moment to begin discussions on what the roadmap needed to include.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: There are a number of urgent needs the TAF roadmap needs to address production and consumption, access and affordability, reform of harmful subsidies, human rights and making the transition just, finance and governance, to mention just a few.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: At Santa Marta, discussions centered on three major themes how nations overcome the economic dependence on fossil fuels and the financial architecture that is needed.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: Secondly, how nations can transform both the supply and demand for fossil fuels.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: And thirdly, how countries can take the broad principles of the transition and make them relevant to their national contexts.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: The Santa Marta Conference marked the first of its kind, an international conference explicitly addressing the transition away from fossil fuels.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: Hosted by the governments from the Netherlands and Colombia, it was attended by over 2,000 participants from 57 nations.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Critically, this was an opportunity for indigenous peoples to present their priorities as part of an international discussion.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: To tell us more about their experiences before and during the Santa Marta Conference, we talk to Oscar Dasagutieres, the Secretary General of OPIAC.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you very much for giving OPIAC space as the National Organization of Indigenous Peoples of the Colombian Amazon.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_03: It's a pleasure to be here.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_03: My name is Oscar Dasa Gutierrez, and I am of the Goreguaje Indigenous Peoples.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_03: To highlight, we left from our very recent experience in Santa Marta.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_03: This was an important step for us as well as other nations, and we wanted to thank Colombia and the Netherlands for really pushing to be able to hold this first conference.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_03: We, as Indigenous people, saw that the nature of the space was much wider, more participative, more open, and that led to certain particularities and differences from the other cops we have previously participated in.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_03: So we wanted to highlight that difference, how these spaces entail that the voices of Indigenous peoples are heard, and that is what we saw.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_03: As what happened in Santa Marta, as much as the differences between the previous cops, let us speak more clearly, more timely.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_03: So if we look at Santa Marta, and also a little at the dynamics of previous cops, we, in our part as indigenous peoples, came with a set of proposals.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_03: How can we bring in that space, which is a little more political, some real solutions which could honestly have a direct impact on the territories, and from there, the implementation of the transition to be just and according to the realities of the territories?
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_03: We see it as an opportunity in contrast to all previous COPs we've participated in.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: By going outside of official UNFCCC channels, gatherings like the Santa Marta Conference can make space for peoples typically sidelined at these events.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: In the case of Santa Marta, Indigenous peoples had the option to have an autonomous space in which they could discuss priorities and consolidate their position into a cohesive list of demands to be presented at the conference.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: By providing these spaces, the conferences like Santa Marta allow for greater opportunities for Indigenous peoples to play a more direct role in creating the policy recommendations of the TAF roadmap.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_03: It led us to assume the role of not just hosts, but also how to lead and listen and gather all suggestions from indigenous peoples all around the world.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_03: This is where OPIAC facilitated aware where we could gather all those different suggestions.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_03: So, from here, as OPIAC, we established virtual dialogue spaces, and this allowed us to anticipate the gathering of suggestions, to gather and combine them to build one cohesive document.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_03: It was a very autonomous process.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_03: Then, this time in person, when the first TAF conference formally began, we had the opportunity to hold an autonomous space, to have a private space for Indigenous peoples, both from Colombia as well as from around the world, where we debated important points to hold collective positions, to have concrete proposals in line with the general themes that were being built in the conference, where we looked to contribute.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_03: So we can conclude that we finally succeeded in building one collective document where we gather the voices of Indigenous peoples all around the world.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_03: But also, how do we focus on this document to hold this perspective, to hold the point of view of Indigenous peoples when talking about the just transition.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: What Oscar is talking about represents a key logistical challenge.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: By having a cohesive voice, Indigenous peoples can participate at international conferences from a stronger position.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: But accurately representing the needs and experiences of multiple groups, including some who function under a policy of no contact, is no easy task.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: So what was OPIAC able to present?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_03: So what did we include in that document as Indigenous peoples?
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_03: We were pushing, as we have done in previous spaces in other cults, for the right of Indigenous peoples to be taken into account.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_03: Many of those that we have won at the international level, as well as those at the regional level, as is the right to free, prior, and informed consent.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_03: Here there must be some guarantees, very timely and inherent for Indigenous peoples, which are internationally recognized.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_03: How are Indigenous peoples guaranteed protection of their territories, of their land, of their water?
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_03: We don't need to limit ourselves to a very specific focus, as we need to guarantee the rights of different regions of different peoples.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_03: So here is where we wanted to stop, or at least not reproduce, that form of colonialism and extractivism in our territories.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_03: And that's one of the things that we are demanding for as Indigenous peoples.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_03: At least that, if nothing else.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_03: While we're talking about the energy transition, but on the other hand, there is the problem that continues to be the exploitation of transition minerals.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_03: And those transition minerals are in the territories of indigenous people.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_03: So there must be a guarantee to eliminate that form of colonialism.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_03: So that's one of the positions that we express in our proposal, which we managed to raise to the very highest levels of the meeting and the conference.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_03: In addition, another topic we want to bring awareness to, as we have done in previous clubs, is the subject of indigenous peoples living in voluntary isolation.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_03: That is also one of the demands, one of the strongest positions that we hold as indigenous peoples.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_03: The natural state must be guaranteed, and that any action or intervention in their territory obviously needs to guarantee the right to free determination and importantly the right to free, prior, and informed consent.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_03: But above all, it must guarantee the right to live in voluntary isolation.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_03: Because we are talking about indigenous peoples that are in a highly vulnerable position.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_03: So that's one of the demands that we also made and proposed at this first conference.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: And within this set of demands, we must not dismiss the subject of indigenous defenders.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_03: I think that here it is good to highlight that many Indigenous leaders have been victimized merely for defending their territory, sometimes with criminalization.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_03: They're not defended, and their rights and their lives are affected.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_03: So this is something that we need to bring awareness to so that the state recognizes that the task of Indigenous defenders is not easy, especially when it relates to fossil fuels.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_03: Because where we have had the most victims has been within the context of resisting extractivist projects.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_03: So what do we want?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_03: That within these frameworks, these roadmaps, what we have built is represented and is picked up by the state governments, and that the next presidency truly takes into account the demands that we have made as Indigenous peoples for them to be truly reflected in the results.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: The Santa Marta Conference was never designed to produce a final agreed text, as there were no formal negotiations.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: But an important report will come in time from the co-chairs.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: And as the roadmap evolves on the way to COP 31, we will be able to see how centrally it features a rights-based approach, as articulated by Oscar, Opiac, and many other indigenous organizations.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: TAF, however, is just one of the two roadmaps that came out of COP30.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: The other is focused on a pathway to address deforestation.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: We'll call it the forests roadmap.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: The political priority placed on halting deforestation can be traced back to COP26 in Glasgow before becoming an official UNFCCC mandate at COP28.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: As part of the first global stocktake, the goal was set to halt and reverse all deforestation by 2030.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: This is clearly an ambitious goal, one that requires aligning multiple different groups within society, alongside not only policy but trade, public and private finance channels.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: A key difference between TAF and the forest roadmap is that deforestation efforts already have a myriad of existing policies.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: This roadmap will instead focus more on how to bring together existing plans and strengthen them, making sure countries again have that sense of a compass setting direction and an accelerator for urgency.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Specifically, the roadmap needs to address how to tackle drivers of deforestation, transform agricultural systems, and shift incentives to make it clear that forests are worth more standing than cleared.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Key recommendations include the recognition of the rights of indigenous peoples, including prioritizing the formalization of land tenure, respecting free, prior and informed consent, and protecting Indigenous environmental defenders, as well as supporting Indigenous governance systems, engaging with traditional knowledge, investing in forest monitoring systems, and addressing the implementation gap between what is promised and what happens.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: The deforestation roadmap was debuted at the UN Forum on Forests in New York back in May.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: But as with the TAF roadmap, it was discussed at the UNFCCC meetings in Bonn and will be presented later this year at COP 31 in Turkey.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: Indeed, as Filippa was saying, and as the previous speakers have been presenting, we have these two big political processes in front of us for countries, right?
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: After COP31.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: Ignacio Aronis is the senior associate for nature and climate diplomacy at Earth Insight.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: He had some key insights on how we can navigate efforts to move away from fossil fuels while also halting deforestation and how these two agendas can be stronger together than working in isolation.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: Having two missions in front of you can sometimes also lead to distraction or counterproductive relations between the two issues.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: So how do we avoid putting too much attention to one of the topics or working in silos in a way that work done on fossil fuels or work done on forest is not necessarily mutually supportive?
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: And how do we create spaces where we can speak to each other and collaborate, even if we're working across the two different topics?
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, what I will try to present is some ideas on how we can do that.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: They're very simple and they're very intuitive, and I think that's part of their value as well.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: And by no means are they new to Indigenous leaders and Indigenous peoples who have been putting forward proposals that are focused on territorial protection.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's important to say that the roadmaps are a great opportunity to push these proposals forward once more.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: Indeed, only as I was saying, a holistic approach to the climate crisis will bring enduring solutions, solutions that are just and enduring, solutions that take into account the whole complexity of the issue on the climate crisis.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: However, sometimes facing these very complex problems can lead to paralysis, and we need to offer countries a first step that offers big results for little effort.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: And um we believe at Earth Insight that the momentum behind ending fossil extraction, which has been it it has been great, it's been really big, but it can also suppose a bit of a distraction and not allow us to put enough effort on forests.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: But we can flip that issue around and use the focus that is on the fossil transition to make sure that that fossil transition is also bringing benefits to the fight against deforestation.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: One way we can do that is through fossil free zones, which are basically territorial policies that prioritize certain areas to end the extraction of fossil fuels, such as for instance in tropical forests.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: So as we are advancing this transition to stop the extraction of fossil fuels, why not start by protecting areas of particular ecological importance?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: The alternative to doing that is allowing international markets to basically take all of the decisions.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: So countries will tell you, well, let's just let the most competitive, the most economically advantageous projects to continue and end the ones that are least competitive.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: The problem is that as oil and gas prices fluctuate, like we're seeing now with the Iran war, and it will happen again in the future, in the next few decades, we will have other conflicts, we will have other international situations that make prices go up a lot and then go down very quickly again, that creates a very disorderly transition, right?
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: Companies will invest in projects when the price is high, and then they will abandon those projects with horrible consequences for territories affected, to very little benefit for the fossil transition.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: So making sure that we limit the possibility of fossil expansion and that we protect areas that have high ecological value is a way of bringing a bit of order into the fossil transition and at the same time accelerating it because we limit the possibilities for the expansion.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: These areas of high ecological importance are already seeing threats from oil and gas extractivism.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: You can find out more about this on the Earth Insight website, which we'll link in the podcast description.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: Wara Iris Ruiz Condori is a project coordinator with Indigenous People's Rights International and a member of the Aymara people of Bolivia.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: She walked us through a case study in the persecution of indigenous lands.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: For fossil fuel extraction.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_03: Today I want to share a very interesting case about the persecution of environmental defenders, indigenous and not, but also the threat to an area of high ecological importance in our country called Tarikia.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_03: I will also share the socio-environmental conflict, extractivism, and the defense of the territory as it relates to today's topic, because in this region exists a very important reserve of gas and petrol.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_03: This protected area, which was created in 1989 and is now protected by law and by a political constitution of Bolivia, is home to hundreds of species and serves as a fundamental hydrological reserve for the region.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_03: Not only for the Bolivian Amazon, but also for the Ducuman nearby Argentina.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_03: It is home to many important peasant and indigenous communities.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_03: However, in January of this year, police officers invaded the region to ensure the continued operation of machinery to extract fossil fuels.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_03: This is happening now.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_03: Despite each advance that has been made in the negotiations about deforestation or the exploitation of fossil fuels and transition minerals, this is still happening.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: The Tarikia region of southern Bolivia spans over 250,000 hectares of dramatic mountains and valleys, covered by layers of thick forest which can mingle with the clouds.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's a key hub for biodiversity, home to over 800 species of plants and over 400 species of animals, which include the critically endangered spectacled bear and the elusive jaguar.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: It remains one of Bolivia's most important ecologically significant areas, but the discovery of hydrocarbons has made it a target for those looking to extract.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_03: In 2015, some hydrocarboniferous activities were allowed in some protected regions.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_03: Already, since 2018 and 2019, there have been conflicts with fossil fuel extraction projects.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_03: At the time, there was no agreement at the UN conference about zero exploitation of hydrocarbons, but there were a couple of fossil fuel extraction companies which pushed for the discovery of hydrocarbons in the region.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_03: That is to say, the conflict did not start in 2026, but is the result of an accumulated tension for many years of threats, which were realized this year.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_03: Between the first and 4th of January, community members impeded the entry of the oil company Petogras.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_03: Many people who support the project of the current government said that this project is necessary because there is an ongoing hydrocarbon crisis in the country.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_03: The company that's trying to enter the region says that they have the environmental permits and all is in order.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_03: But even so, they have entered with police officers and detained seventeen environmental defenders, which have gone on to trial.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: As of a few days ago, only twelve have been released.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_03: At the end of January, the start of February, the defenders were officially notified and they went through a long process.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_03: January, February, March, April.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_03: The case was only concluded last week, and fortunately, twelve of the seventeen were found to be innocent.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_03: But in reality, they should not have had to have been tried, as this is their land.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: The fight for the Tarekia region is just one example of how indigenous communities are already fighting to secure their lands from extractivism, and how efforts to halt fossil fuel extraction there would have a much bigger impact than other regions of low ecological importance.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: But critically, it's one of many endangered areas.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: Fossil fuels are indeed also a threat to our forests.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of the fossil reserves that remain in the world are under old and very long growth and intact tropical forests.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: And this is a reality lived and understood by Indigenous peoples very well, up to 21% of this tropical moist forest.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: So even if it's not the main driver of deforestation, and that is obviously there's many other drivers of deforestation, such as agricultural expansion, stopping and starting by stopping the threat posed by fossil fuels can bring this mutual benefit to both roadmaps and can be a first step for both countries that want to end fossil extraction, but they're looking for a first step that might put them on this pathway.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: And likewise, countries that are looking to end different drivers of deforestation can stop an industry that is often the first one to cut into the forest and to build roads and infrastructures that then other industries like logging or agriculture use to expand into your territories and into the forests.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: So a very intuitive uh uh solution, uh one that obviously has been uh uplifted as well in the Santa Marta recommendations from Indigenous peoples as uh as exclusion zones, but not the only and not uh a silver bullet.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: This is just to use the Amazon as an example.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, here it's not the focus is not necessarily in the whole forests, but those lands that are already recognized as Indigenous territories and when there is land tenure for Indigenous peoples, you can see that the threat from from oil and gas is is very high for your communities and your territories.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, up to uh 12% of uh indigenous peoples' lands in the Amazon are threatened by oil and gas.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: But as we heard before, oil and gas are not the only threats to forests.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: And a risk of putting too much focus on uh the fossil transition may lead to accelerating other threats to forests.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do we avoid this?
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: If we put too much focus on fossil-free zones, if we put too much focus on stopping the extraction of fossil fuels, are we then giving a green light to accelerating the extraction of minerals where we should be sure to build strong guardrails that avoid that?
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: They're both a bit of different sectors because fossil fuels are in a general decline.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: So it's about managing that decline, and minerals are it's a new market that is being created.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: So it's about directing that growth of that market towards areas that are that are not as valuable for our ecosystems, that are not tropical forests, that are not intact forests, where there's no indigenous peoples' land tenure unless they so wish to develop mining, etc.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: We have discussed the fight against transition mineral extractivism and its effect on indigenous communities extensively in previous episodes.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: If you're interested, make sure you have a listen.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: So making sure that the roadmaps to transition away from fossil fuels and to end deforestation address these industrial threats and create bridges between both so that we can advance both roadmaps together in a way that we're not creating more problems for each other is fundamental, as you can see.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: And we can do that as I was saying in the beginning by building some sort of guardrails.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: Guardrails is another word that sounds very abstract, but it really is about identifying areas where we don't want minerals to be expanded, so no-go areas, but also better rules for companies so that they have to identify their supply chains and not buy minerals from areas that are of critical importance.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um also better accounting methods for bioenergy.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: Bioenergy sometimes uh does not account the whole destruction that it brings to ecosystems.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, if we focus too much only on um on exclusively on CO2, we're not taking into account other environmental degradation, and uh even within CO2, we're not fully accounting for all of the emissions that they bring.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: We can see an example of recent progress on this in Colombia, where at COP 30 the government announced the creation of a special environmental zone encompassing the entire Colombian Amazon.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_03: In the case of Colombia, it's very important to point out that we contain part of the Amazon rainforest.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_03: And the government has been very interested in how to protect the Amazon, how to protect this biome through government-led actions which we support.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, one of the announcements that the government made by the environmental minister at COP30 was that it was looking to declare the Amazon as a special environmental reserve, how to protect the Amazoni biome through a resolution, an administrative act under the umbrella of the government.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_03: I think that the intentions are very valid, focus on how to protect the territory.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_03: We are not against this.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_03: I think it is welcomed, and this is how governments should act, more so governments which overlook tropical rainforests.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_03: So that resolution was proposed that there should be no exploitation of fossil fuels as well as minerals in the Colombian Amazon and in a broader sense the Amazonian biome.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_03: And that framework has progressed, and within this, we must remember that within the Amazon and the Colombian Amazon is a territory with a large presence of indigenous peoples.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_03: We have 64 different territories with a high percentage of indigenous peoples.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_03: These are territories in which indigenous peoples are very present, but also the forest itself is alive because indigenous peoples are present.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_03: So in the different actions that governments, local, regional, and national, have tried to implement, we have pointed out that there is a fundamental and active actor that needs to be a protagonist in the defense of the territory.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_03: And that is the voice of Indigenous peoples.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: Both roadmaps, focusing on transitioning away from fossil fuels and on forests, are in active development.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's imperative that Indigenous peoples, Afro-descendant peoples, and local communities have a hand in shaping them, implementing strategies derived from lifetimes of experience and an intimate knowledge of the land.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: By working together, by asking difficult questions and making voices heard, we might be able to make real progress before COP31.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's all for today.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for joining us on another episode of Groundwork.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'll see you in the next episode.