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Annie Norman | The Christian Reeve Podcast #162 · The Christian Reeve Podcast

• 0:00
  Hello and welcome to another episode of the Christian re
• 0:03
  podcast. Today's guest is a war games
• 0:05
  manufacturer, a creator of female Miniatures and the CEO of
• 0:10
  bad squid. Oh games, all the way from
• 0:12
  Nottingham in the UK, welcome Annie Norman to the show.
• 0:15
  How you doing? Hello thanks having me on.
• 0:18
  It's a pleasure to have you finally on the show.
• 0:20
  For those who don't know, just a little bit of a tidbit and going
• 0:24
  into this episode. I actually created a voiceover
• 0:27
  for one of Annie's recent. Chuck's a tree pain, that was a
• 0:33
  lot of fun getting to work with her and of course that led to
• 0:36
  this show and now we're doing this full month later.
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  So well, I guess the first thing to ask is, how did that go her
• 0:43
  that with the tree paratrooper in the room?
• 0:49
  And so I could could display one.
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  But no, the tree pain was like a silly little side project that I
• 0:55
  worked on and obviously you're involved and it won't really
• 1:00
  Well so it's really pleased because it's nice just a little
• 1:03
  just a little fun things so that was nice.
• 1:05
  So like yeah let's do more little fun things and the amount
• 1:08
  of people that have mentioned it since, as well though, I didn't
• 1:11
  gain on the kickstarter but we're gonna get it when it's out
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  and stuff. Yes.
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  Do you know when that when that drops then?
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  Because I was a little bit confused at first like as I,
• 1:20
  okay. So you're doing a GoFundMe type
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  deal or Kickstarter sorry? Yeah yeah.
• 1:28
  Just to get it kind of to It and stuff.
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  And yeah, I saw within like a week it was already getting good
• 1:33
  numbers and stuff so what are you planning on releasing it?
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  And so what happens with kick starters are super common in the
• 1:40
  tabletop World which is why I always ask people.
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  But still, they have you heard of Kickstarter because in my
• 1:46
  world, it's really common but then lots of people like, no or
• 1:49
  isn't that the place that you can get the ultimate belt?
• 1:53
  You will know. Look through it.
• 1:55
  Well, I don't look outside of gaming Kickstarter, there's
• 1:58
  always at least 10. Multi-million belt Kickstarter
• 2:02
  projects on for like this is the last belt you'll ever need.
• 2:06
  This is the last wallet you'll ever need these socks?
• 2:09
  Aren't your socks? They're really expensive socks.
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  It's just us all over the world and so originally kick-starts or
• 2:19
  set up to get projects off the ground crab, see crowdfunding,
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  but it's become a bit more of a sort of pre sale in this world.
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  And so I've been using it. I think over N projects now
• 2:31
  where it's help to get the money up front, but a big part of it
• 2:34
  has been the advertising. So a lot of people shop now on
• 2:38
  Kickstarter, so they go and browse therefore, the latest
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  projects and it's really weird and I still don't get it.
• 2:45
  So if I release something flat, I go here it is.
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  The entire product is ready. Here it is by it.
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  It's kind of sometimes like, yeah, I'll get that at some
• 2:55
  point. Whereas if you go here's this
• 2:59
  thing, you won't get it for a few months and there's no
• 3:02
  guarantee you'll get it. They're like yeah, I tend to
• 3:09
  like rotate between I still like doing a lot of standard releases
• 3:12
  because some people just go pure Kickstarter, but I use
• 3:16
  Kickstarter when I feel the thing could do with a boom,
• 3:18
  because it gonna get shared. There's loads of height.
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  I think the limited time as well helps, so you really make an
• 3:24
  event of it. So with my kickstarter's,
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  Usually got the thing made but then it's the extra money to get
• 3:30
  it into production and to know how many to put specially with
• 3:34
  something like a tree pain. We're absolutely no idea.
• 3:37
  I was like man if I sell five that's it's still good.
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  I love that pain but it's entirely different to say my
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  other projects where it's going to be in the hundreds at the
• 3:47
  very least sort of make it worthwhile.
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  So the idea with the kick starter is that it's it's
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  usually about people do them for Anna from from A few days to a
• 3:58
  month. Mine, usually about a week
• 4:00
  because when it's on, that is everything.
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  So and there's always a dip in the Middle where it just kind of
• 4:06
  stalemate. So, I'm gonna cut that dip
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  because that is the worst dip, because he just kind of like,
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  hmm, and you're gonna let a few people leave as well.
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  So we've Kickstart your people put money in, they can up down
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  it throughout the campaign. So until that, final day of it,
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  someone could put in 10 grand and then just take it out.
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  It's yeah. So that's why.
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  It's also a fun sort of thing. So yeah, so people they sign up
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  to Kickstarter. They put the money in the end of
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  the campaign. The money is taken out.
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  And then you usually assign how much time it will be till the
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  people, get the product in their hands.
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  I'm generally awesome, and get stuff out really quick partly
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  because my casters are awesome. But for a lot of them specially
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  board games, where you've got all sorts of different
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  manufacturing, it can be like years, basically till They get
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  the thing and then a lot of people don't do it.
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  They don't release an item after the kickstarter where as I
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  always do. So basically as soon as I've
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  fulfilled all the pens from this then it will be in the shop as
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  is just a standard purchase item as well.
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  But the next task for me now is to message everyone that has
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  backed and asked what color because there's a million
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  different pen colors and it comes in a few like casting.
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  Some stuff. So I round up all that data
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  basically and all the shipping details and then there's this
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  cheeky bit where people can as they're adding the shipping,
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  it's like you want anything else while you're here, which is
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  always great because people might come for one product be
• 5:41
  like, oh, that's a cool pen and it wants to doing that, they're
• 5:43
  like oh you do all of this stuff.
• 5:47
  Oh yes. You just add that in while
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  you're here, this city played in the might as well.
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  So yeah, that was Is my rundown of sort of how a bit of how
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  tabletop kickstarter's work basically.
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  Thank you. Thank you for sharing.
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  And how did you get into a sport?
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  Because there's a lot of ground to cover it with what you do.
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  So, in a nutshell for those who are on familiar with this
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  territory, I'll try and give it a brief overview from my
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  understanding, so that about other countries.
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  But here in the UK, we've got a shop called Games Workshop,
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  which is around the country and essentially You get a lot of
• 6:27
  different figurines from different franchises.
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  So Warhammer would be example of one and you get anything for
• 6:34
  more popular, well-known. Franchises.
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  Like Lord of the Rings and stuff like that.
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  To maybe just original content that no one's, maybe not that.
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  No one's heard of, but less than 0 and then say the bigger
• 6:45
  breasts. And so now P.
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  Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
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  I'd say, I already realized already at my debt but
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  essentially, when you say, Able top games that what you mean?
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  Is yeah. Like you you kind of classic D&D
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  Style on a table with, you know, maybe there's mats.
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  Maybe there's nothing different terrains that people paint and
• 7:09
  create. And of course, one of the things
• 7:11
  that you do is create female managers and we'll get into that
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  in a sec. But I suppose, what I want to
• 7:17
  start with is how did you kind of get into all of this?
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  Because obviously you're a designer or artist so there's
• 7:23
  that. Like but how did you transition
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  into Specifically this realm. So I've played war hammer since
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  I was a kid. I was just really into it and I
• 7:34
  think I was that how lot of people get into those sort of
• 7:37
  Industries? Because I have that childhood
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  connection. So I began a company called the
• 7:42
  dice bag lady in. I can't even remember what year
• 7:46
  it is. Now let alone then a while ago
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  about 2010, maybe well, we know that's a look to see what year
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  it was. I forget who it was.
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  A long time ago, I set up a company called dice bag lady,
• 8:00
  after starting a started, just making some dice bags.
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  When I got back in that everyone has a sort of break and then
• 8:06
  comes back to it. So my come back to, it started
• 8:09
  making some bags that took off. So I ran a company called the
• 8:12
  iceberg lady for quite a few years until about 2:30 from
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  2015. So up at that point, I'd built a
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  really solid sort of fan base. Customer base online, presence,
• 8:26
  and doing The man-made bags for dice, which a lot of people then
• 8:30
  would like, is there that much of a market?
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  Yes, it is. This whole nerd undercurrents.
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  It's a lot bigger in America. It's very easy stream.
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  From my understanding, having not been to America, but it does
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  seem a lot especially, you know, D and D celebrity D&D player's.
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  Whereas here it's kind of it's a lot of people might have heard
• 8:49
  of Games Workshop but that's about it.
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  I bust my wrists from repeatedly crocheting and embroidery.
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  So oh Ting wanting to kids out there don't you?
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  Have you crochet mess you up and but by that point I was already
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  quite established. I didn't want to leave the
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  industry because I really liked just liked being there and so I
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  decided to have a little shot at making Miniatures and up to that
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  point, even though it's been in the world I didn't really know
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  how you make you make Miniatures, which is partly.
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  Now I helped a lot of people that are also do that are just
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  starting out. There was nobody So go and ask
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  his it's because it's kind of obscure sort of Industry.
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  There's no basic, you know, you can't Google closer match how to
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  make Minis. And something that I had issue
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  with, in my own gaming was, when I start playing historical more
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  than sort of, you know, when you play nails and fantasy and
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  stuff, it's all very different. But soon as I started playing
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  historical games, I went, I just want some women in the Army.
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  That's okay, I'll look on the internet.
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  There aren't any. So it's been something.
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  I've been kind of ranting about usually on Twitter going.
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  Why aren't there any women just doing the things I can use in my
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  Army? So I thought, okay, I've got a
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  chance to do something about it. I've been playing Dark Age
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  gaming Vikings and stuff and I thought, well, if nobody buys
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  it, but a lot of my things start with, if nobody buys it, I've
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  got something for myself and then it takes off.
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  So, this took off massively because, yeah, I thought, if it
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  doesn't, I spoke Few companies were like, we only make sexy
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  managers because that's all people want.
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  So okay. I will try anyway and yeah if no
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  one wants it, I got what I want, I guess.
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  And we're now over seven years later and 550 Miniatures.
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  That are just the lady Miniatures with then got like
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  another 200 animals, a few Chaps in their few weird creatures.
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  We've got stomach guinea, pigs and tanks.
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  Yes, and we have a massive seen it.
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  Strange. So I definitely kind of started
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  a company by accident. I bought, I thought shield made
• 11:02
  along just so because I haven't done any interviews for a while.
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  I went all diva-like now just because so they were very
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  repetitive. So the reason I wanted to come
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  on here was because it's different angle.
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  So it's good that you kind of don't quite know it because it's
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  just not the same sort of questions.
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  So I've brought along for the viewers as well, that probably
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  also largely don't know or have a vague recollection.
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  Action of painting Space Marines, as a kid, so that's
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  good. It's not the best camera on
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  here, but look at that for scale.
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  This is your general standard shieldmaiden mini, which is what
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  the company was all about. I will say, now, everybody that
• 11:42
  listens to the show just in order to are you audit reform or
• 11:45
  did she fall? No, yeah, yeah.
• 11:47
  Make sure you go and check out the video version of podcast on
• 11:51
  YouTube and Spotify. So you can see that because it's
• 11:53
  a really great little figurine, of course you can check Check
• 11:57
  out these figurines on bad squid, oh games.
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  And I'll make sure there's a link to that as well.
• 12:01
  There's a painter that I follow and he always He puts his hand
• 12:04
  in the pictures and I keep thinking, that's a really good
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  idea because again I get stuck in this assumption that every
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  like, you know, casually mention Kickstarter and things like
• 12:12
  that, but a standard but no, it's still in this bubble.
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  So for that was a really good idea because you see them, they
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  sort of, you know, crops and white and there's no sense of
• 12:21
  scale. So yeah, just having a human
• 12:23
  hat, human hand, it's supposed to monkey and or something, but
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  yeah, so yeah, it's was a raise The idea that got out of hand,
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  which is kind of going to be on my Tombstone.
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  I think there's a few angles. I want to, I want to tackle with
• 12:41
  this or return to the female managers in a second, but one
• 12:45
  thing I wanted to ask you about is now, this is just from my
• 12:49
  childhood. I remember the shop started
• 12:52
  popping up in like the mid 2000 specifically Games Workshop.
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  I'm not sure if there's any other brands in the self.
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  I just remember because I grew up in London.
• 13:01
  So I remember seeing High Street Right.
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  See anyone? That's got High Street presents.
• 13:05
  Yeah. Okay, yeah, selection.
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  And I, you know, I was intrigued.
• 13:09
  I think we all were and I'm a massive, huge nerd.
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  I never got into it per se, but I would always like to sort of
• 13:16
  just check in the shop and just see what was going on and
• 13:19
  obviously was a huge fan of still am computer games and
• 13:23
  stuff like that. And there's a lot of crossover
• 13:24
  there and whatnot. But I suppose, one of the things
• 13:29
  that you mentioned, which I find interesting and since then, I
• 13:32
  mean that was the only 2000's. Now it's 20. 22, it's 15. 20
• 13:35
  years later. Why do you think that it's not?
• 13:40
  As popular here in the UK as it is in the state's.
• 13:42
  Now obviously, I know people going to shoot me that question.
• 13:45
  They will be good. It's more well-established.
• 13:47
  Okay, great. Those are good points.
• 13:49
  But then, you know, you've got shows like, stranger things
• 13:53
  where they, you know, highlight the kids actually playing with
• 13:57
  it playing at D and D style games because used hugely
• 14:00
  popular in America in the 80s, that's where it originates.
• 14:05
  And, you know, that's how it's come over here, but it's
• 14:08
  interesting to me, because Because this crossover between
• 14:11
  the states and the UK. Generally speaking is pretty
• 14:15
  yeah. Vice versa in normally goes back
• 14:17
  and forth, but this is an area where it's not quite
• 14:20
  transitioned in. That manner is its is popular,
• 14:23
  but it's still kind of a like, a niche thing.
• 14:26
  Why do you think that is? And do you think it's grown in
• 14:29
  popularity since then? Have you seen a noticeable surge
• 14:33
  in popularity? Like what's the kind of deal
• 14:35
  there? So I don't really know.
• 14:39
  Buckets. There is quite a distinction
• 14:41
  between in tabletop games. There's it splits really into
• 14:45
  roleplay which is you D&D stuff or board gaming and wargaming.
• 14:54
  So I've got a wargaming background.
• 14:56
  Although recently I've been getting more into through do
• 14:58
  more fantasy Miniatures. Been getting more into the
• 15:01
  tabletop world and then board games is kind of adjacent to it
• 15:04
  all and in America or did the roleplay say like the done.
• 15:09
  Ian's and Dragons, where there's not a huge amount of Miniatures
• 15:12
  involved is very much the about the writing in the books and the
• 15:15
  theater of the mind, which is apparently a really cheesy
• 15:18
  phrase. I only learnt last week, so I
• 15:20
  keep using it theater of the Mind, the UK's got a huge
• 15:25
  history with wargaming. So obviously Games Workshop with
• 15:27
  start here, it's the biggest in the world, I'm in Nottingham, it
• 15:31
  was founded in Nottingham. So every you know other article
• 15:36
  in the local things about Games Workshop as Clara was originally
• 15:40
  from it was about Weetabix because everyone's got their
• 15:43
  own, you know, local industry thing that they like to roll
• 15:46
  out. So it's kind of strange sure
• 15:48
  that it's wargaming because it's you know, they've got their own
• 15:52
  Lori's CC Warhammer trucks go by their advertising on the tram,
• 15:56
  that's kind of everywhere, but it's definitely getting a lot
• 16:01
  bigger. I don't know.
• 16:02
  Quite why America. I don't maybe just because it is
• 16:05
  a bigger area. I don't know but it's always
• 16:09
  Always been here and always been very strong, but I guess kind of
• 16:12
  underground. And wait, I think of this way,
• 16:15
  more nerdy perception here. Whereas it's a bit cooler and
• 16:19
  cooler people in America. I don't quite know.
• 16:22
  But I know that the board, I like school board gaming.
• 16:26
  And them, it wouldn't be a stream without my leg going
• 16:29
  deaths and love it. So, but ballgame roleplay of
• 16:35
  absolutely exploded in for, like, the last five years I was
• 16:39
  a UK games Expo last week, which is week or two weeks, which was
• 16:44
  the the biggest Convention of that sort.
• 16:47
  And I think there are about 30,000 people there.
• 16:50
  Yeah. Very good.
• 16:52
  Yeah. So there's a big nerd or armor
• 16:54
  and it was a lie. It was really a again for me
• 16:57
  with a more of the wargaming background being in that sort of
• 17:02
  land and it's just like my world.
• 17:05
  So I've done lots of conventions over the last seven years and
• 17:09
  some Of them. It is a bit like, is this dying
• 17:12
  out because there's not much diversity, there's not that many
• 17:15
  young people and then to compare that to a board game roleplay
• 17:19
  event. It was just like diverse.
• 17:22
  Oh, that'd be a good game. Diverse City, they just created
• 17:28
  a game, he's created a game on the show, they go.
• 17:32
  Yeah. Like this the amount of time it
• 17:35
  was just a huge mixture of people which was so cool.
• 17:39
  So, That it's the industry is absolutely massive and I know
• 17:43
  that it used to be if I kind of went in anyone's house and
• 17:47
  Source or board games, it almost certainly be Mega nerds which is
• 17:51
  not a bad thing as American it hurts and you're looking at it,
• 17:54
  but it's way more. So people in the street and you
• 17:57
  wouldn't even know it's like not even self-proclaimed nerd, you
• 18:02
  know, it's just, it's way more common now for people to have
• 18:05
  board games and roleplay. So it's definitely getting I
• 18:09
  think things like stranger things, there's licensed games,
• 18:13
  I think are doing a huge for it. So having roleplay and War Games
• 18:19
  in things, like Lord of the Rings Game of Thrones Marvel.
• 18:24
  Like, here's the thing. You like here's the thing, you
• 18:27
  like in a different format so people are way more likely to
• 18:29
  go. Oh, I like that thing.
• 18:31
  I'll try this out rather than brand-new experience.
• 18:35
  You know, if you're really into the Hulk, you might want to play
• 18:38
  the Hulk game. That's the sort of entry into
• 18:41
  all the other stuff so where I am is the very tiny end of it.
• 18:46
  So yeah, you've got in terms of the UK, you've got what?
• 18:50
  Wells is Games Workshop and then there's sort of the smaller
• 18:54
  levels down where they've maybe got like 50 employees or
• 18:59
  something. And then it's the little
• 19:02
  pyramids, same thing. And then let's just loads and
• 19:06
  loads of companies that are, you know, under five people and down
• 19:10
  to bad squid. I still just me, but I do employ
• 19:14
  a lot of Freelancers and then those Freelancers or work for
• 19:16
  other War Games companies. So there's there's a lot out
• 19:20
  there and I think once you first find it, then that as I did,
• 19:23
  when I first discovered outside of Games Workshop also, look at
• 19:27
  this, they're making their own minis are so these and then it's
• 19:31
  just like, we are all here. You like, whoa, there's just so
• 19:35
  much out there but she wouldn't I guess, cause, yeah, you don't.
• 19:39
  During to about Square, do shop on the High Street yet, so
• 19:44
  that's interesting yet. What your, what your future
• 19:46
  plans that do you plan on maybe introducing something big there?
• 19:50
  Do you plan on maybe trying to hit the American Market?
• 19:52
  What's your parents trying to hit the American Market?
• 19:55
  The moment is my number one girl.
• 19:58
  Well, I have hit, I've hit the American Market very hard, but
• 20:02
  it's a very big market. So I'm trying to get a lot more.
• 20:05
  But yeah, about 50 percent of what we sell goes to America,
• 20:08
  which is good. Yeah, that's huge.
• 20:10
  Yeah yeah, wow, okay, so we're trying to just get more people
• 20:18
  so we provide a lot of retailers and Distributors which is also
• 20:22
  something that was awesome at UK games Expo because I met lots of
• 20:26
  different retailers. So I need some sort of thousand
• 20:30
  the same preach. Oh, I've had some time off
• 20:32
  afterwards. And now I've got lots of
• 20:33
  delicious emails that are talking about that.
• 20:37
  I'm so happy for you. What?
• 20:39
  Regulations the retail side of its huge and there's a lot of
• 20:44
  small companies are really anti retail and it really like mmm.
• 20:49
  It's like yes Games Workshop. The biggest, they got that big
• 20:52
  by only selling direct. Surely not by having millions of
• 20:55
  shops across the world and it's totally their their whole thing
• 20:59
  is, it's shoving it in people's faces because you don't even if
• 21:03
  you're not that interested like you said, you see it on the High
• 21:05
  Street and you like I'll have a little look and it's like sort
• 21:08
  of there. So I've got quite a decent
• 21:13
  internet presence, but it's still nothing because that's the
• 21:16
  internet's. The entire world.
• 21:18
  There's only so far I can personally push.
• 21:21
  So when you've got more sort of collaborators Partners
• 21:24
  retailers, they're all then pushing the stuff, it's like,
• 21:29
  and all these little pockets and I know it's a lot easier to grow
• 21:34
  and that's especially with things like brexit that's
• 21:36
  happened. Recently, if I was only sign
• 21:39
  directly, It would have been absolutely catastrophic, but
• 21:42
  already have an in place things like European retailers.
• 21:46
  It's just so much easier just to get everything out there.
• 21:50
  But yeah, as a small company without that Mega, you know, I
• 21:53
  don't have an advertising section.
• 21:57
  Again, I go to James workshops had HQ is in, Nottingham School,
• 22:01
  Warhammer world and it's absolutely enormous.
• 22:05
  And I look at that and be like you've got an advertising wing
• 22:09
  So then the big you are obviously.
• 22:11
  Whereas in any industry you can push it.
• 22:13
  So it's really hard for me because currently ID juggle.
• 22:16
  Pretty much everything. It's hard for me to do that big
• 22:19
  push, which is why if you can get more people doing it,
• 22:23
  especially if they're doing it for their own benefit is if, you
• 22:26
  know, as in there a retailer, they want to sell your products
• 22:29
  because they make money, then that's when you get that sort of
• 22:33
  natural reach. That's what I'm super working on
• 22:36
  at the moment. And I've got some big retailers
• 22:39
  in America, which is also good. So you know, I'm selling a chunk
• 22:42
  and then selling a chunk to the retailers that pass it on.
• 22:45
  So I'm hoping to go to Gen Con next year and work on it pretty
• 22:50
  much happening. I think of just not said
• 22:53
  officially because things happen you know without well.
• 23:00
  Like not even on just a nanny scale you know, obviously and
• 23:03
  pandemic and War and all that sort of stuff.
• 23:05
  Like who knows what's going to happen in the next year?
• 23:08
  Nanobots or so? Something like, you know, I can
• 23:12
  relate to you on this because like one thing I've started to
• 23:15
  do now is whenever I get exciting news of something that
• 23:18
  might happen. I what I desperately want to
• 23:20
  tell people I want to share but then I'm like, I remember no
• 23:24
  this way. Like the best time to tell
• 23:26
  people is when, you know, 100% that it's the happening, but
• 23:29
  maybe you're in it doing it then share it or after it's happened,
• 23:34
  or whatever. Because for some reason if you
• 23:36
  do it before, not always, but a lot of the Somehow it just
• 23:41
  doesn't happen or something affects it.
• 23:43
  I don't know. Maybe this is some weird
• 23:46
  Universe stuff but it just seems to affect it.
• 23:48
  That's and I've just started. I guess it was some something on
• 23:53
  YouTube. I don't know if it's a TED talk
• 23:55
  or some it was something like that that I listen to you not
• 23:58
  too long ago and it was saying about not telling people your
• 24:01
  plans before you do them. Yeah but things.
• 24:04
  So not specifically things like trips but let's say for example
• 24:09
  'Well, I'm going to try to make something crazy.
• 24:14
  So I'm going to, I want to launch Five shops in the UK and
• 24:18
  I tell everyone. So my plan is I'm gonna launch
• 24:21
  Five shops in the UK. And then everyone goes, that's
• 24:24
  amazing. And you get all of the sort of,
• 24:27
  you know, the dopamine reward and your brain is almost like
• 24:30
  you've done it. So you like yeah yeah.
• 24:33
  And then it sucked any like any drive to them, do it because
• 24:39
  you've Rewards just for having the idea without doing the thing
• 24:44
  and it's like to like keep yourself motivated.
• 24:46
  So yeah, you've already got your like mental Applause and stuff,
• 24:51
  and they don't need to do it now.
• 24:53
  That's, that's interesting. I've never heard that specific
• 24:56
  angle. The thing.
• 24:58
  I always think about is, oh, don't tell people your plans
• 25:01
  because, you know, if they, they might wish you ill or they, you
• 25:05
  know, might wish you did, it doesn't happen for you, you
• 25:08
  know? And Stuff like that because of
• 25:10
  course, it doesn't matter who you are, you do have haters.
• 25:12
  Everybody's has haters. I'm sorry to say but it's true,
• 25:15
  especially if you're trying to do something.
• 25:17
  If you're trying to achieve something with your life, build
• 25:20
  something from scratch. Oh my God, the people want to
• 25:23
  bring you down and it sounds to me like you've dealt with that
• 25:26
  at some point. He share anything that you
• 25:28
  learned from that? Well yes, a woman in a very
• 25:32
  male-dominated industry trying to make things more accessible
• 25:36
  for women. Hey, I need a nice little
• 25:41
  trophy, like I survived a trophy or something.
• 25:44
  So yeah, just along the way in various different forms of how
• 25:48
  people just trying to trying to put me down.
• 25:51
  Discredit me attribute, my work to being somebody else's work
• 25:56
  that I do. I'm the face of every April
• 26:00
  Fool's. I want to say that I'm actually
• 26:01
  just hired as like the face of some other like mysterious
• 26:04
  benefactor like, no, because it will stick with me forever.
• 26:08
  No one will say. Is an April Fool.
• 26:11
  It's a lot better now, but trying to build up the company
• 26:15
  was, it was really exhausting and I forget sometimes how hard
• 26:19
  it was because I think is pretty cool.
• 26:21
  Everyone's quite accepting make them anywhere.
• 26:24
  They are now that I've proved myself which you shouldn't have
• 26:27
  to do now. It's, you know, that's like one
• 26:30
  of the guys thing and I'll think I am a be more gaming, is a lot
• 26:34
  better for women like, no, it's because they don't own.
• 26:37
  I'm now exempt. That sort of like privilege.
• 26:41
  I don't know what it would be like not fame a privilege
• 26:45
  because I'm not famous, but I am well known in that world so it's
• 26:48
  kind of like that whole. Oh, not you, you're okay.
• 26:52
  It's the other ones. When I mean, this is interesting
• 26:55
  to me because it sounds like it's twofold as well.
• 26:58
  Like you identified a niche in the market based on a lack of
• 27:02
  representation you will. Uh, that's weird.
• 27:04
  There's no female managers. They will female characters.
• 27:08
  Okay? Well, I want there to be and you
• 27:11
  look you look for that, you couldn't find you on that wall
• 27:13
  up, I'll do it then and then you started doing that and then on
• 27:17
  top of that, you've said that you face pushback and I'm
• 27:20
  guessing this is this at every level is it or because you sort
• 27:24
  of said that your business model is essentially like be to be.
• 27:27
  So you're dealing with you know like other companies buyers
• 27:31
  whatever. Right.
• 27:32
  And because you said it's like a male-dominated industry.
• 27:36
  I'm guessing that implies that like they didn't take what you
• 27:38
  were doing. Seriously or maybe they didn't
• 27:40
  think it would sell something like that, you proved them
• 27:43
  wrong. And then now you're moving to a
• 27:45
  point where it's like, okay, well we accept you but you know,
• 27:49
  we still think this way kind of kind of deal.
• 27:51
  I mean. Yeah.
• 27:52
  Is that could have been, you know, it's kind of Because we
• 27:55
  say we sell to businesses will see sell direct as well.
• 27:58
  Okay. And I'm so very much and that
• 28:00
  sort of online community which is always a blessing and curse
• 28:04
  at the same time and it's always negative people that you here.
• 28:08
  And now now I've kind of got my own validation from the fact of
• 28:12
  like it's working clearly I've been here.
• 28:15
  I know how much I sell. All that sort of stuff that I
• 28:19
  can knock off the sort of bad comments.
• 28:21
  But at the start when I'm still I was, I thought I was grown up
• 28:26
  then you know and you kind of look back you like I thought I
• 28:28
  had everything together. Yeah, I thought they're not over
• 28:33
  as, you know, solid doors on it. But I was so insecure which
• 28:36
  makes sense because I was like to look at the day to figure out
• 28:41
  my age. I was 25 and them and I was in a
• 28:47
  brand new industry and I did step down doubt very much.
• 28:51
  So all these sort of negative things, people would say would
• 28:54
  stick in. Mine's.
• 28:56
  And even though I'd get because it did get a mixed reception
• 28:59
  when it's sort of launched. But there was so many people
• 29:02
  that were just really, really positive.
• 29:05
  The after it launched it. I went to the biggest
• 29:08
  specifically wargaming show in the UK with it, and that was
• 29:12
  kind of my make-or-break. Like, if people like it, it's
• 29:15
  gonna go. Well, if it sucks here at this
• 29:18
  Mega show, it's going to suck everywhere, sort of thing.
• 29:21
  And I did get loads of online crap.
• 29:23
  But then in person, It was just people come up going.
• 29:27
  Yes, this is amazing. Yes, this is what I mean like
• 29:30
  about why people just shouldn't take online stuff too,
• 29:33
  seriously, because like realistically in real life,
• 29:36
  people don't really have the guts to say - so I mean yeah.
• 29:40
  Like you know if anything you you got that was - in person.
• 29:44
  I wager would have been more constructive than anything else.
• 29:48
  Yeah. But yeah.
• 29:49
  So there was that sort of community thing and then that's
• 29:52
  different companies that have been work.
• 29:54
  I've companies All contractors and things like that.
• 29:58
  And there's definitely spent again at the start.
• 30:01
  There was a lot of dismissal and it was this sort of any silly
• 30:05
  little project and that was good for kind of every angle and it
• 30:08
  wasn't the majority but that's the stuff that sort of sticks
• 30:12
  when you're already full of self-doubt a set it up, on no
• 30:15
  budget. I said up out of debt because
• 30:17
  I've got into debt from from my wrist injuries.
• 30:21
  Whereas a lot of the larger ones, you know, people sat up
• 30:23
  with the savings or they've sold a house and I've got some cash
• 30:26
  or something and I was kind of just doing it in like put this
• 30:30
  money in so they can off money out of selling.
• 30:34
  That one miniature to then be able to commission, another
• 30:36
  miniature. So it's been a real big fight
• 30:40
  throughout it but it's why. Now when I just especially when
• 30:43
  it's set up some somewhere like a show where I've got it all
• 30:45
  laid out and it's lovely display.
• 30:48
  I've got all the cabinet's out like, wow this is amazing.
• 30:51
  And now yeah, that's the sort of people that wouldn't have given
• 30:54
  me the time of day All do now and then there's always that
• 30:57
  like, yeah, you know, like in those teen films where they have
• 31:01
  the makeover. So it was like, only other boys
• 31:05
  who didn't notice you and now like, hey and then it's not
• 31:08
  live. Like Yay.
• 31:09
  The boys are doing this to me now too.
• 31:12
  You didn't give me the time of day before so trying to sort of
• 31:15
  Juggle like who to give a bit of the benefit of the doubt to and
• 31:19
  who to just be like yeah though. So that's been a a whole
• 31:25
  interesting sort of Journey but I did a definitely want to put
• 31:29
  that there are there's just been so many really cool people and
• 31:33
  but I also had this fear of being helped because anyone that
• 31:39
  helps me it'd be like oh look you're just getting you know
• 31:41
  you're just smiling at people and they're doing this for you.
• 31:44
  I like know. It's normal people, help each
• 31:46
  other. That's what they do but I was so
• 31:50
  not wanting to look like you know I was kind of being given
• 31:54
  special Upwards or something that I resisted lots of help
• 31:58
  too. So let's just make it as hard
• 32:00
  level as possible and that's that, it's just absolutely
• 32:03
  bizarre but there are have been learning because I used to think
• 32:07
  that there were basically no women in this industry.
• 32:10
  And I've now learned that there are loads and they have been
• 32:13
  loads for some time. Oh cool.
• 32:15
  But not so much on the that sort of visibility level.
• 32:20
  So when I was younger and playing, I was always like, oh
• 32:23
  wow, it be so cool to work in Warhammer one day, and that sort
• 32:27
  of thing, I'm like, oh, but I don't know, Trish cardin's, very
• 32:31
  famous, sculptor who sculpted for Warhammer till not that long
• 32:35
  ago, she's retired while she's retired but she does some
• 32:37
  freelance. So I want to do something with
• 32:39
  her at something, but she was the only woman I knew of in this
• 32:44
  whole thing and now having spoken to a lot more people.
• 32:47
  And I know that there are so many but they're just not in
• 32:50
  that. Sort of I which is why I now try
• 32:53
  and kind of shove my face everywhere, and then get people
• 32:56
  going. All she loves herself, I really
• 32:59
  don't know, but the more I whack my face on it and, you know, the
• 33:04
  more people, especially, you know, little girls are like,
• 33:07
  yes, those. Yeah.
• 33:08
  That's the person that I could be that person, you know, sort
• 33:11
  of thing. So I'm always trying to make,
• 33:14
  you know, also not be like hello.
• 33:16
  I'm the first woman to ever working for games.
• 33:18
  Like there's been a lot, And that's, that's another
• 33:21
  interesting one even from quite early on, in those sort of D&D
• 33:25
  World War Hammer days, though. They were there but obviously,
• 33:29
  get is still still the minority but a lot more than people, sort
• 33:33
  of things, especially the sort of, you know, online Gatekeepers
• 33:36
  of we don't want women entering the hobby, like they made it,
• 33:40
  leave it at the start. What advice could you give to
• 33:46
  aspiring female business owners? Believe in your own because
• 34:06
  obviously if you're new to something yeah there was great
• 34:10
  advice to take from people but there's also not doubting your
• 34:15
  own hunches and your own feelings on things which I still
• 34:18
  do because I'll you know, I'll really be dead set on something.
• 34:21
  And then someone else or convince me.
• 34:23
  Otherwise and then it turns out I was I did have it right?
• 34:27
  You know, it's finding the balance.
• 34:30
  If your own Was it your own getting it.
• 34:36
  So moving and obviously are learning from people who've done
• 34:39
  it for a long time. This things that I've, you know,
• 34:42
  I've met be released and as I was about to release, someone
• 34:45
  said, oh, don't bother doing it this way, because you're not
• 34:48
  going to sell many or something. So, I've gone.
• 34:51
  Okay. And then, I saw blades and
• 34:54
  again, now through the kind of, you know, the proof in the
• 34:57
  pudding thing, I know that I can do stuff, but the start it was,
• 35:02
  it was that feeling. It's going off on a tangent as
• 35:04
  it is. What advice would I give a like?
• 35:06
  I don't know, I don't know. It's just, it's tough.
• 35:10
  Because you do have to kind of get more crap than you would
• 35:14
  have. Otherwise and it is really easy
• 35:15
  to just, you know, go solve this.
• 35:17
  I'm out. And I thought that many times
• 35:20
  along the way, but persistence I think, and also not to sink to
• 35:25
  that sort of, Not being a lab, that's not a term.
• 35:29
  But you know, being the perp becoming the person that stopped
• 35:33
  you the starter. Don't know how to put that into
• 35:35
  some sort of eloquent. No, I get what you mean but were
• 35:38
  you just gonna look like Gatekeepers but not becoming a
• 35:41
  gatekeeper? Not becoming someone that would
• 35:43
  prevent others like from succeeding where uses some exam
• 35:50
  and also just that in general business.
• 35:52
  So something a secret politics a lot.
• 35:55
  No, it's doing. It's seller.
• 35:57
  A lot of women in politics of kind of got to that position by
• 36:02
  acting like the worst men in politics because that's how the
• 36:05
  system's set out to be. So yeah, like I could, yeah, I
• 36:11
  could be dismissive of now. I'm past that threshold.
• 36:14
  I could go right? Yeah.
• 36:15
  I'm not going to let anyone else in now, and I'm the Queen.
• 36:19
  The so gets cut. I'm the queen of wargaming and
• 36:22
  yeah, because you can go. I'm safe.
• 36:23
  Yeah, I know. I must protect my space and
• 36:25
  this. Something.
• 36:28
  But no, it's just just to try and stay humble, sounds a bit
• 36:32
  rubbish, but yeah, I don't know, it's hard.
• 36:37
  I think I was talking recently because I used to before I set
• 36:41
  up, I don't know. Before I set up, that's good.
• 36:43
  I used to be quite involved in the Warhammer tournament scene.
• 36:46
  Oh, cool. I played a lot of tournaments,
• 36:50
  and I got really competitive in that.
• 36:52
  And one of the issues, one of the reasons I quit in the end.
• 36:57
  Because when I started if I was suddenly because so at that
• 37:00
  point it was me and then there was a casion Lee one or two
• 37:04
  other women at the tournaments. But that was it, whereas now
• 37:08
  it's a bit, it's a bit better but anything I did basically was
• 37:15
  then taken us all women. So if I lost a game and people
• 37:19
  go see said women were rubbish at warmer as I want.
• 37:23
  No, that's just me, it's just me.
• 37:26
  And then to be I don't think I used to love being on the bottom
• 37:28
  table because you know, you get the whole, you know, top tables,
• 37:32
  bottom tables and a lot of people would go for the weekend.
• 37:35
  Have some beers that was the appeal for me.
• 37:38
  It was that like go long, do some socializing or else?
• 37:41
  Yeah, that's a yeah, meet some people.
• 37:44
  Go to a different city and they'd always be those people
• 37:47
  that kind of thing took, you know, some rubbish stuff that
• 37:50
  was fun because, you know, you can get like, Billy Bob, like
• 37:53
  video gaming, you can game it up and have the The ultimate
• 37:57
  killer, you know, you kill a list or whatever, or you can
• 38:00
  offload, Simone's or whatever like that.
• 38:02
  So they don't always feel the guys that just take all the
• 38:05
  Gnomes, have a great time and everyone go that's Dave.
• 38:08
  Yeah, he's a wicked guy. Just loves having a fun game,
• 38:10
  but no one had say, our days is representative of all many more
• 38:14
  gaming. So I quite quickly when okay, so
• 38:17
  I need to prove that women are awesome at wargaming Via myself.
• 38:25
  And so I go, I just got way competitive and then I started
• 38:29
  getting angry with myself near the end if I'd lost something
• 38:33
  and then it was just kind of point of like I'm not enjoying
• 38:36
  this anymore I shouldn't have to prove that.
• 38:39
  Yeah that's what I thought. Yeah and I think that would
• 38:42
  probably fit into the air advicing like not having to
• 38:46
  prove things at least yourself because yeah I just thought I
• 38:50
  have to show everyone and then I didn't that mean I didn't have
• 38:54
  the same experience. Because I just wanted to be Dave
• 38:56
  Robinson Dice. And if you win that school you
• 38:59
  know but if not it doesn't really matter and so that was
• 39:04
  that's when I look back on that I think whoa and then that was
• 39:07
  very masculine setting as well. So it was very much that
• 39:12
  Survival by being one of the lads.
• 39:14
  So how long ago roughly this is about?
• 39:18
  2010-2014 I think so yeah I'm 22:24 sinister.
• 39:25
  Then dd5, I mean you've mentioned, there are more women,
• 39:28
  there's more women in industry, has more visibility been
• 39:30
  generally speaking like how do you feel do you feel that it's
• 39:33
  better now do you feel like there's less people saying
• 39:37
  things like like women are not good at all hammer and
• 39:40
  statements like that. Like you're not hearing that
• 39:42
  stuff anymore. Like, do you how do you feel
• 39:46
  about it now compared to them? That's a bit was saying before
• 39:50
  about that privilege type thing, okay?
• 39:53
  I'm because now if I Look into a Warhammer shop.
• 39:56
  There's a good chance. Someone will go.
• 39:58
  It's only from Bad squid against.
• 40:00
  Oh, cool. And therefore, I'm not treated
• 40:01
  the same as if it's her. Hello, young lady, that's
• 40:05
  wondered self into this shop. I had so many horrible.
• 40:10
  When I was a teenager, I had so many horrible Games, Workshop
• 40:13
  experiences, and I'm so glad that it seems to be largely
• 40:16
  better. Now, Warhammer world is in
• 40:19
  Nottingham is amazing. And there are so many women
• 40:21
  working there. And it's so friendly and I just
• 40:24
  like to thank Thank you for changing, but yeah, it's death
• 40:27
  is definitely getting better. Not as fast as it should be
• 40:32
  compared to other things, but it's definitely on the, and as
• 40:37
  much as I, no matter what I do, I'm still relatively small, but
• 40:41
  I know I've had an impact within a part of it.
• 40:44
  As in customers have said, things other companies I've
• 40:47
  worked with other companies sort of helping them with their
• 40:49
  designs stuff like that. So I know what I've definitely
• 40:52
  had an impact but then it's still You know, it's still like
• 40:56
  the little mouse doing something where, as you know, Games
• 40:58
  Workshop, the last, for the last four years, have started adding
• 41:03
  a lot of really cool women into theirs.
• 41:06
  And that's, they're always going to be the biggest and other
• 41:11
  companies don't quite like it when I say it.
• 41:12
  But we do kind of like get the drippings off keep selection
• 41:17
  like one delicious drippings because that is how people find
• 41:20
  it. You know they see the shop they
• 41:22
  get into that or else is that it's and it's It's okay.
• 41:25
  I don't mind especially since like any other industry, you've
• 41:28
  got like your market leader there, the market leader, or the
• 41:31
  most recognized brand, I mean it.
• 41:33
  And to be fair, you know, there's no reason that it can't
• 41:36
  increase and become more popular.
• 41:38
  I mean, I would say just in general, like, from an
• 41:41
  outsider's perspective, looking in, there's probably gonna be
• 41:45
  more intriguing this moving forward because it's something
• 41:48
  different. It's not, you know, this take
• 41:51
  video games is an example, Right?
• 41:52
  Video games is just embedded in Society culture, whatever?
• 41:57
  Right? When we were growing up, it was
• 41:58
  still kind of a novelty online gaming, whatever.
• 42:01
  Like it was it was a new thing was fun.
• 42:03
  That was different if you know where is now it's just part of
• 42:06
  society. It's not yeah kind of unique
• 42:08
  anymore and that's everything has like is like cyclical.
• 42:13
  You know what I mean? So like where these things like
• 42:15
  tabletop games and stuff like that were around many decades
• 42:19
  before. Now they're kind of re-emerging,
• 42:22
  they're having like a new lease of life and it's different and
• 42:24
  then there's All these other options.
• 42:25
  Now, as you mentioned before, and I'd like to quiz you on that
• 42:28
  in a second, by the way. But you mentioned that there's
• 42:31
  like role-playing you mentioned this table tops and, and all
• 42:35
  this. So there's that different
• 42:36
  subgenres. Yeah.
• 42:40
  Like different ways of doing a similar thing and yeah, that's
• 42:45
  actually something I wanted to ask you about is like, what?
• 42:47
  Either bring in a nutshell, what is the difference between role
• 42:53
  play games tabletop games? Wargaming so tabletop games kind
• 42:58
  of covers it all and online. Yes, that's cool.
• 43:01
  Like the umbrella return. And that's shortened to TT RPG
• 43:05
  quite a lot. So if you see that around, she
• 43:07
  also then gets called titter pigs.
• 43:10
  It's a sleazy. What, if that's that's he done.
• 43:13
  And so roleplay is very book based.
• 43:17
  So, you have your books that's got all the remains of product
• 43:21
  is the book. You have your character, you
• 43:24
  could play some People play campaigns for decades.
• 43:27
  Like, they'll me up, you know, once a month once a week with
• 43:30
  them. Wow.
• 43:31
  And, and it's just an ongoing Quest.
• 43:34
  So you can do things like one shots where you could do it over
• 43:37
  an evening. But yeah, some just go on
• 43:39
  forever. Basically I'm at school.
• 43:42
  Yeah. Mum fit entirely, depends how
• 43:44
  you want to play. So yeah, it's all the advice of
• 43:47
  people get very attached to their characters.
• 43:49
  You can imagine because it's like, well, the adventures we've
• 43:51
  been through and their wearers war games.
• 43:55
  Is, and yes, if sometimes it's not essential for figures in
• 43:58
  those, but people like them, just to have something to sort
• 44:01
  of represent, and they'll sometimes use like a board or
• 44:04
  grid. So, if you're traveling through
• 44:06
  a dungeon, you've got a bit of a visual of what's going on and
• 44:09
  like where you are. So if they, you know, they go,
• 44:11
  there's a door to the left and whatever you don't forget,
• 44:15
  you've got your little map. So that's that's the one side
• 44:18
  and then wargaming is figures. It tends to be Mass battle but
• 44:21
  it's now a lot more Skirmish but you have Your figures and your
• 44:26
  figures are the characters. Whereas roleplay, your the
• 44:29
  character, and the figures are just like a bit of a marker,
• 44:33
  really? Yeah.
• 44:34
  War games, it's all very much about the figures and the
• 44:37
  one-off battle. You can do campaigns again but
• 44:40
  it's less of that personal character sort of development.
• 44:44
  So they're both, they're both very similar but also very
• 44:47
  different and you do tend to there's a chunk of people that
• 44:50
  go across both but there's still quite a bit of a split between
• 44:54
  which Like, oh, and the first year, I traded at UK game Expo
• 44:57
  this year and I was really nervous because lot of War
• 45:01
  Games, people had said, it's not very good for us.
• 45:03
  It's always the roleplay people, like but I want the roleplay
• 45:06
  people. So I was really unsure because
• 45:10
  like how many people actually use minis but the fact that it
• 45:13
  went absolutely berserk, which is why I've been off recovering
• 45:16
  from it, it was like the maddest weekend we've had and again had
• 45:22
  so many fresh people going And because we do stuff like
• 45:27
  Capybaras and guinea pigs and all that as well.
• 45:29
  That also just made some people's brains explodes because
• 45:33
  they were like, yes. Yes.
• 45:37
  So yeah. That was that was awesome.
• 45:39
  I mentioned it a few times for our I want to sort of cover it
• 45:42
  now you make female Miniatures and in the run-up to this
• 45:48
  episode you told me kind of off camera that you do like
• 45:51
  extensive research for this because it's obviously like a
• 45:53
  lot of historical Figures that you use as well.
• 45:56
  It's not just like mythical, you actually go for historical women
• 46:00
  throughout history. So what can you tell us about
• 46:02
  these female Miniatures? Your research process everything
• 46:06
  in between So yeah. So recently we do a lot of
• 46:09
  fantasy and that's why I've been into that sort of role play land
• 46:13
  but the heart of it is historical and that's less cool,
• 46:17
  which is what I'm trying to like, do my own thing with
• 46:20
  bringing people in like look we've got, you know, we've got
• 46:22
  ourselves and stuff and then they're hearing like, right?
• 46:25
  So in World War Two they're like no that is the last, you know,
• 46:31
  perceived as cool. It's very much was it like can
• 46:34
  mark from Peep Show with sauce Those so thing occasionally
• 46:42
  watching guys I'm Mark I don't want to do not you sweetheart.
• 46:54
  He is the inner nerd but then he is a terrible himself and it's
• 46:58
  like well he's a nerd but does he have to be such a dudes like
• 47:06
  but yeah, so the Just subrange. We do is World War Two, which is
• 47:11
  something that prior to that, I had zero interest in and I now
• 47:16
  look back at all the cool places that I went to as a kid and was
• 47:19
  like, oh, so boring. Hey now I really want to go
• 47:23
  there now and and I think that was the female involvement.
• 47:27
  I think when you get interested in something that's kind of like
• 47:29
  a thing that you attach yourself to and that's the bit of
• 47:33
  interest and reading about women's experience in World War
• 47:36
  2, was that sort of like That was a hook that sort of got me
• 47:39
  in, and I now super interested in it.
• 47:43
  But yeah, so I do, there's a few there but the main me looking at
• 47:48
  how messy my house. It's those tiny to me over that
• 47:54
  tiny lie corner, but there's a whole controller.
• 47:58
  Oh, but yeah, there's a heart of my house is in rearrangement
• 48:04
  mode. So this is the corner where
• 48:05
  everything kind of looks okay. It's that side.
• 48:09
  Everything's shove T. And so I do a lot of research.
• 48:13
  I do a lot of online research, because it's obviously a lot of
• 48:16
  time most up-to-date, but I love looking through books because
• 48:20
  everybody not just me spends way too much time on a computer and
• 48:25
  it drives me nuts because I like constant hunched a computer.
• 48:28
  So I like when I do research to be able to just old-school it
• 48:31
  and just get books now everywhere.
• 48:34
  A lot of time I do end up just photograph in the books and then
• 48:37
  you know the details That's the relevant things and then make it
• 48:40
  into a file or something. But it's the largest we do is
• 48:44
  Soviet women in World War Two, okay?
• 48:46
  But we also cover. Yeah.
• 48:47
  All sorts of different historical periods in Rangers
• 48:51
  and we've also got a community Miniatures project where people
• 48:54
  kind of get people to vote for who they want to be made into a
• 48:57
  miniature and then it's like pitch your character.
• 49:02
  So it means that they then like hahaha.
• 49:05
  I've checked the world and to educate any Each other about
• 49:08
  women from history. And so, it's almost like, yeah,
• 49:11
  pitch your character to the gang.
• 49:13
  And then there's a vote at the end on who we make because for
• 49:17
  because obviously, this is all great.
• 49:19
  Everything is great but it all requires a lot of money to be
• 49:23
  made some people go. Okay, do that.
• 49:25
  You do that. If you like yes but it needs to
• 49:26
  sell. There's still a business here.
• 49:30
  So a lot of the times with the Rangers, they'll they will be
• 49:33
  arranged because for various reasons, having a chunk of
• 49:36
  things in that one. Change is better, a more viable
• 49:40
  business and that isn't business in terms of getting six
• 49:43
  Ferraris? It's like making it work and I
• 49:45
  can pay my bills but when you do random characters, their kind of
• 49:49
  from different periods. It's like it's cool but by
• 49:52
  itself what will I do with it? Which is why we do this.
• 49:55
  It's a side thing, the community Miniatures and then we can all
• 49:59
  educate each other and then if one doesn't make it, I'll enter
• 50:03
  them in the next round and stuff like that.
• 50:05
  So it's almost like those He's not deaf mansion.
• 50:10
  That's all thing to get. Yeah.
• 50:12
  It's like if there's enough interest.
• 50:13
  Yeah, we'll do these these random people because they're
• 50:15
  cool and they might not have a reason to use them in any sort
• 50:19
  of game but you kind of want them because they're cool.
• 50:22
  And a lot of people will just paint, they won't necessarily
• 50:25
  game with them, they're just nice little projects and people
• 50:27
  make dioramas and and all sorts with them, I just just have that
• 50:32
  representation. And so I absolutely love doing
• 50:35
  the historical because I get Learn about it then I get to
• 50:39
  stick it in my mind because my lines an absolute filter just so
• 50:42
  good. So by telling people about it,
• 50:45
  then actually sticks it in my mind and I've kind of made a
• 50:49
  dream job by getting to somehow mix in ball games, guinea pigs
• 50:57
  and and education because part of me, really wanted to be a
• 51:00
  teacher but I don't want to go back to a school ever again
• 51:04
  because they're a place of Hell against.
• 51:07
  Each me for on my own sort of terms, you know, and outside of
• 51:12
  anything like structure like that.
• 51:14
  So I get to do the teaching, but in a nice way, I didn't have a
• 51:18
  good time at school. Really tell everyone, I speak to
• 51:30
  you as had a totally different experience and it's like, it
• 51:33
  makes me realize like, I'm lucky and at some respects but also I
• 51:37
  did have Somebody experiences myself as well.
• 51:39
  And I think an interesting thing as well is that like we come
• 51:44
  from that generation where it was before, you know, like being
• 51:49
  a nerd was cool like that, we were just nerds, you know.
• 51:53
  And like I was I was kind of like a midway between a tall kid
• 51:58
  and a nerd so it's like very much like it get a lot of crap
• 52:02
  for like like in the band's I liked and the way my hair was
• 52:06
  and whatever you know music Etc and it blows my mind that now
• 52:12
  seemingly that doesn't matter anymore.
• 52:14
  Like it's cool to be a nerd and like everyone like most kids
• 52:19
  seem to be like quite alternative anyway that that
• 52:22
  that's the cool. And I'm like what?
• 52:25
  So I went And like now it's like you just do what you want
• 52:31
  free-for-all and I'm like, I mean, it's cool, I'm happy for
• 52:34
  them is not that division. But at the same time, I'm at
• 52:37
  what I do, what's the, why do people?
• 52:39
  Because I remember like having conversations with people where
• 52:42
  I would talk about music because I just love music and they'd be
• 52:46
  like, oh, you listen to stuff other than rock metal.
• 52:49
  And I'm like, yeah, I do. And then I bet you can and I
• 52:52
  might, would you mean I can't the night because you like this.
• 52:55
  And I'm Like, yeah. But I also like this.
• 52:57
  Why does it have to be rules? Like then you get to a delay age
• 53:01
  and you realize that no one gives a fuck that.
• 53:03
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 53:05
  Which they said that if you're going to say, well, the
• 53:12
  gatekeeping saying and yeah, where it's, it's so tempting to
• 53:17
  keep because I exact so I was always weird Star Wars kid, and
• 53:21
  yeah. And now it's like, oh, oh.
• 53:24
  Oh yeah, I see a little Be so easy for your brain to be like,
• 53:27
  no, that's my thing. I've The Thing by liking it when
• 53:31
  it wasn't cool too late and then you've kind of got a like, come
• 53:35
  on monkey brain for like it's good.
• 53:37
  People are liking the thing that you like what you like?
• 53:40
  Yeah, this is something. This is something I don't get
• 53:43
  about fandoms these days, right? It's bit controversial.
• 53:45
  But I think it's true because I'm a big fan of pro wrestling,
• 53:49
  right? And I hear a lot of people going
• 53:50
  like, no, you're wrong, and that's what you mean.
• 53:53
  I'm wrong. Oh, you can't think that.
• 53:55
  Was, it's an opinion. So by very nature, it's not
• 53:59
  right or wrong. It's just an opinion.
• 54:01
  Like, you know, I can like listing and you can dislike it
• 54:04
  and we agree to disagree. But instead, they'd rather have
• 54:07
  an argument bad and you get a lot more like Star Wars.
• 54:10
  It's like, I hate the new films. I hate what they've done and
• 54:13
  it's like, well, there's some people that love them.
• 54:17
  No, grunt it's not modes, but there are people that were like,
• 54:21
  yeah, that last Jedi, great movie.
• 54:24
  And, you know, I'm kind of Indifferent about it.
• 54:26
  I'm like, all right. And but I didn't understand the
• 54:30
  like overwhelming hatred. I'm like It's just a movie.
• 54:34
  Is this franchise? I get that it's your you know
• 54:37
  you love George Jung, I get that but like stuff changes things
• 54:42
  change, you know and like it's entertainment.
• 54:49
  That's the only thing I always look at its this is supposed to
• 54:51
  be fun. It's not supposed to be
• 54:53
  something that you get like angry over and frustrated women
• 54:57
  upset and you know, like you want it to be better.
• 55:00
  I can relate to that. Like yeah, so rest in them,
• 55:02
  like, I wish. It was better in this regard but
• 55:04
  like, I don't sit there like getting angry and upset and
• 55:08
  like, yeah, like and that if someone says something that I
• 55:11
  don't agree with, I my okay, well, you know, that's what you
• 55:14
  think that's fine. I mean that's like what if they
• 55:17
  done to my boy but yeah, one of the things that I occasionally
• 55:23
  all like sort of tell myself and that fits into the business as
• 55:26
  well, it's not like it's not for me like like, you know, like the
• 55:31
  latest style, some of the latest Star Wars.
• 55:33
  Stuff, big fan of the shows, rather than the film's not.
• 55:38
  So he'll on the latest films but they're not for me.
• 55:41
  Thanks, they're not made for me. The there's that whole like okay
• 55:46
  I've seen younger Generations enjoy it.
• 55:48
  So why would I saw crap all over?
• 55:50
  It's not for me, you know? I'm at it's okay for me to have
• 55:53
  my opinion if I don't like the thing.
• 55:55
  But not so just kind of yeah tell anyone who does like that
• 55:58
  they're wrong or to write long worded letters to lucasfilm or
• 56:03
  And I think that's also happened in the hobby because this e, and
• 56:07
  this one, I won't even name drop it because not out of
• 56:10
  politeness, just no one should go there.
• 56:14
  This one really old for him for gaming and their condo cult the
• 56:19
  dropping now. And again, for some like lunch
• 56:21
  break entertainment and they still using it, it's straight
• 56:26
  out in 1985, so we're still using it.
• 56:29
  Yeah, oh my god, when I share this around the people that
• 56:32
  know, will know. We're like, yeah, yeah, it is.
• 56:36
  I'll show you after. Yeah, it's 85 and everyone in,
• 56:40
  there's just constant or the kids these days into war games,
• 56:44
  they're all into video games instead or and then they'll
• 56:48
  complain that the games that the kids are playing.
• 56:51
  So this is from, you know, people have played for a very
• 56:53
  long time and they've played, you know, mass mass Napoleonic
• 56:57
  battles. Maths World War two battles
• 57:00
  which there is absolutely nothing wrong with.
• 57:02
  And I've partaken in What's, but like that's that's what they
• 57:07
  like. And now they're seeing younger
• 57:09
  people getting into table top but it's wrong because it's not
• 57:13
  the way they want. So they're playing fantasy.
• 57:16
  They're playing with smaller numbers of figures, maybe
• 57:19
  they're playing licensed games, so they're seeing it as not as
• 57:23
  pure or not as good and it's like nobody's forcing you to put
• 57:28
  something like the Hobbies dying.
• 57:29
  It's dying. I like well, Nobody's taking
• 57:33
  your game away from you. You can carry on playing your
• 57:37
  game. These people are going to play
• 57:39
  this game and it's still all filters back into the same
• 57:41
  hobby. It's like this.
• 57:44
  Marvel's always on a popsicle. Yeah, that's cash out.
• 57:47
  This new Marvel game is not for you.
• 57:50
  It's not marked at you, you don't like Marvel, but all these
• 57:53
  people are. And that more of the kids today
• 57:57
  aren't gonna want to play Mass scale Napoleonic because What
• 58:01
  happens, you know, things change, what people are into
• 58:04
  change and the same way, you know, lots of kids you know a
• 58:08
  while back one Mega into World War Two because that's the
• 58:11
  generation that it was and you know, maybe they're into
• 58:13
  something else now, but people having something else doesn't
• 58:17
  take away your thing. So, if you've got a really
• 58:20
  strong connection to the original Star Wars Trilogy, some
• 58:23
  new stuff that's targeted younger people or whatever, it's
• 58:28
  not ruining, you know, it's not taking that away.
• 58:31
  Oh yeah. So I've had that with the female
• 58:33
  minis because the whole thing about the mini so I make is that
• 58:36
  they're not sexualized. And that was, it was weird that
• 58:40
  that you said Niche earlier, and I say it quite a lot of people.
• 58:42
  Like, it's so weird. How it's described as a nice,
• 58:45
  but it's like swimming wearing clothes.
• 58:47
  It's not like, I don't know. Camels are hatched honest.
• 58:50
  And they're like, yeah, really tapped into this, like never
• 58:53
  discovered niche of women existing and wearing clothes.
• 58:58
  And that obviously, that was the biggest Kickback, not that it
• 59:02
  was that I was making women, but it was women in close because I
• 59:05
  was there for removing chainmail bikinis from the world.
• 59:09
  I was Banning everything. I was stopping like no, I've
• 59:12
  never been - about any of it because the entire thing was
• 59:17
  Choice. Yeah.
• 59:18
  So it's like, yeah, you I don't mind you carry on carry on but
• 59:23
  people that want something else, have that available to them and
• 59:28
  it's I don't know if the interview are definitely the
• 59:30
  internet makes people Way more polarized because they want to
• 59:32
  just that, that black-and-white argument.
• 59:35
  So yeah, people would be like, I so prudish.
• 59:37
  You're taking all this away. Like I'm not I only needs of
• 59:40
  this stuff. It's just nice to not.
• 59:43
  You know, if the only option you've got is a really sort of
• 59:48
  Wheat and a lot of them aren't even empowered sexual figure.
• 59:50
  That's the whole of them but you know that sort of you know yeah
• 59:54
  really weak figure you know falling over in a bikini but we
• 59:58
  don't massive sword but that's fine.
• 1:00:01
  It's a true that's been throughout the whole thing.
• 1:00:05
  And other people would say, it's absolutely not fine.
• 1:00:07
  I'm really opinion that. Yeah, it's fine, but it
• 1:00:10
  shouldn't be a mission to find a woman in a suit of armor thing.
• 1:00:16
  So it's all about the choice but people like, no, we can't handle
• 1:00:19
  this and a bit. Like you said about music.
• 1:00:21
  You like, I like this. I also like this?
• 1:00:23
  No, no, that's not so on sometimes I end up like getting
• 1:00:27
  the wrong people. So that no, it's all about
• 1:00:30
  Choice. All about.
• 1:00:31
  Choice. They're like see some of them
• 1:00:34
  figures out there with. That's also fine.
• 1:00:39
  It's also fine. This is this constant like
• 1:00:41
  everything has to be pitted against each other and again
• 1:00:45
  though people send me like oh have you seen this new Range by
• 1:00:48
  someone? All they've got.
• 1:00:50
  They've got a bit low top on. I'm like.
• 1:00:52
  Yeah but that's that's their thing.
• 1:00:54
  Like people are buying it. It's not illegal, so it's fine.
• 1:00:58
  It's just, I just want to do something else.
• 1:01:00
  Doesn't mean I 8B of a right, the other?
• 1:01:03
  Yeah, he's always does this. Yeah, no.
• 1:01:08
  Yeah. And you just can't get their
• 1:01:15
  head around it and so with that, like old-school, yeah, or these
• 1:01:20
  because there's this whole thing about how women people of color
• 1:01:24
  queer people. Anyone other than a straight
• 1:01:26
  white man, basically is coming into the hobby.
• 1:01:29
  I'm ruining it and there's that whole go I won't go broke and
• 1:01:32
  it's like, we're just appeared out of nowhere to ruin the Hobby
• 1:01:36
  and it's like, just how exactly is more people from lots of
• 1:01:45
  different backgrounds joining this this you know, hobby, how
• 1:01:50
  is that bad thing? Like, how is that ruining it?
• 1:01:52
  I don't understand that answer. Like it's and it's so even if
• 1:01:55
  you want to just carry on playing with all the songs but
• 1:01:58
  playing with all white guys, no one.
• 1:02:01
  I think that's going to be the very clear.
• 1:02:04
  What what I said. It's like nobody stopping you
• 1:02:09
  do. Do your thing.
• 1:02:10
  It just means I mean, people are having their nice time so you
• 1:02:14
  can continue playing with all white guys.
• 1:02:18
  I love that. To take it seriously.
• 1:02:41
  It was like respect in the hobby.
• 1:02:45
  So it was it was like where is too far?
• 1:02:49
  Where do you draw the lines in historical game in.
• 1:02:52
  So it's up to you. This thing is like, if you plan,
• 1:02:54
  well, we'll see you playing Nazis and stuff like that.
• 1:02:57
  So, it was a really good discussion on where the line is
• 1:03:01
  with stuff. I can't remember what the term
• 1:03:05
  for it was, it was a really good discussion.
• 1:03:06
  I really enjoyed it because it was one where it's like, does
• 1:03:09
  not really a right answer. It's you mean like historic
• 1:03:13
  comfortable? Yeah, storico accuracy, though.
• 1:03:17
  Yeah, it was a bit of that, and just the fact that you're
• 1:03:19
  playing War, So, oh, you know, in war games, you are recreating
• 1:03:24
  war. And it was just that, like, it's
• 1:03:27
  been like the ethics of it, and it was quite a rhetorical chat
• 1:03:30
  and it was, it was a really good one.
• 1:03:33
  And in that there's a really out of context of it from me.
• 1:03:37
  We're at get you there's a certain not surprised Cheviot.
• 1:03:41
  Are everyone with the same brush, but there are people who
• 1:03:44
  always play the Nazis, you know, like, okay, it's a game and you
• 1:03:48
  need both sides and all this sort of stuff.
• 1:03:51
  There are some little bit too into it, you know, that's the
• 1:03:56
  bad part of the hobby but even that in my argument there
• 1:04:03
  because I ended up I think they kind of had me honest.
• 1:04:06
  Like the super woke one and they ended up going.
• 1:04:08
  What no one's stopping you. Yeah, if you want to, if you
• 1:04:13
  wanted to, like, do whatever, like weirdo weirdo, game, with
• 1:04:19
  your mate, wearing your replica, Forms in your living room.
• 1:04:23
  Most countries, it's not illegal.
• 1:04:25
  So no one's stopping you. But if you're doing it in
• 1:04:28
  public, yes, people may stop you because it's not just about you.
• 1:04:34
  But most of this stuff, if you want to do it like in life,
• 1:04:38
  General Li No One's Gonna Stop you, it's just there.
• 1:04:41
  For when the becomes an audience, you're putting it in
• 1:04:44
  front of people. See my that's very interesting
• 1:04:48
  to me, like, just that whole concept You know, like some
• 1:04:52
  people this is probably not much doing a video where it's people
• 1:04:57
  introducing people to the Hobby sometimes.
• 1:04:59
  Get people wearing red. Look hello, Auntie, very rarely,
• 1:05:03
  very rarely what their she dress up the part.
• 1:05:07
  Yeah, I haven't seen one recently, but then again, I
• 1:05:10
  suppose you could argue. That's no different to let
• 1:05:13
  people that do historical reenactment.
• 1:05:15
  Exactly. And that's, that's also a good
• 1:05:17
  discussion, but they're never there.
• 1:05:19
  Never allies that there. Always As in flike SS gear and
• 1:05:23
  stuff like that, where they're gone like this is my excuse to
• 1:05:27
  wear and because again I'm the passionate about World War 2
• 1:05:31
  Gaming and historical wargaming, that's part of my but Quest is
• 1:05:36
  to just like those guys out the way.
• 1:05:42
  Let's not put you people on front display.
• 1:05:46
  So some guys recently playing playing a game in some native.
• 1:05:51
  Earth can have dresses. Let's just like, dudes, what you
• 1:05:54
  doing, what you doing? But, yeah, strike trying to
• 1:05:59
  there. Is that the negative perception
• 1:06:01
  of that part of the Hobby and it is such a small amount, but when
• 1:06:04
  you see them that's what sticks, you know, that's the thing that
• 1:06:08
  sticks. So always extra enrages make
• 1:06:10
  some like all the work left arm and then you there with your
• 1:06:14
  application form, get out, get out.
• 1:06:19
  Not all of them. Probably Not see these.
• 1:06:22
  But they definitely are in general, like, computer games
• 1:06:33
  and stuff like two players bad guys.
• 1:06:36
  It's interesting, it's different.
• 1:06:38
  It's you know, it's all. There is a whole like thing with
• 1:06:42
  the facts Games Workshop had to put a statement last year.
• 1:06:46
  I think it was oh wow, basically like there's no place for
• 1:06:50
  fascist in this. P-please course.
• 1:06:52
  Yeah. Because wow, it's well a lot of
• 1:06:55
  the for UK stuff is kind of satire sort of like future e
• 1:07:00
  was, it's got like elements of that, you know, fascist regimes
• 1:07:04
  and stuff, but my sake in the wrong way.
• 1:07:07
  Okay, yeah, God and prayer and stuff but it's a critique of it.
• 1:07:14
  But now that it's that thing where something gets bigger it's
• 1:07:16
  that message is kind of lost. So people then style, that sort
• 1:07:20
  of Of things. And I think what's really
• 1:07:23
  important is to just like, get it away soon as possible,
• 1:07:28
  because she kind of start letting these little.
• 1:07:29
  There was a really good analogy but her not that long ago, but
• 1:07:33
  I've heard it a lot since then it was like, how a biker bar
• 1:07:36
  becomes an that c bar, and it's like, one guy comes in, and he's
• 1:07:40
  got like the patch on or something.
• 1:07:42
  But it's all right. So, you kind of let him in
• 1:07:45
  because he's not causing any trouble and then he starts
• 1:07:48
  bringing his mates, it was basically like it Spirals and
• 1:07:51
  Millions of customers, don't come anymore and before you
• 1:07:54
  realize it, your biker bar is now and that's you bark because
• 1:07:58
  you are like the like the first point in.
• 1:08:01
  And I think that's been a real setting a precedent for.
• 1:08:04
  They says yeah. Yeah.
• 1:08:05
  Cuz it's like yeah, you let the person in that seems.
• 1:08:08
  Okay. And that's but that's the like
• 1:08:10
  who but they're not causing trouble.
• 1:08:13
  So it's that sort of reasons why sometimes you should just not
• 1:08:16
  tolerate anything of that. All of that nature obviously.
• 1:08:21
  Because yeah, you'd be like oh there's like dude he always
• 1:08:23
  brings his this cap easily than other people be like, oh great
• 1:08:30
  to the point that you end up with like, a greedy man at a
• 1:08:33
  trade show in Plymouth where in the Hitler Youth uniform.
• 1:08:38
  But yeah, this the whole piece great.
• 1:08:40
  Hope he's great and everyone should get into.
• 1:08:44
  And but yeah, these are all tiny like incidents and again, that's
• 1:08:48
  what every industry. Every fandoms got.
• 1:08:51
  Everyone's got and yeah, it's a family thing.
• 1:08:53
  Everyone's got that. Cool.
• 1:08:56
  Which is like, you take takes, we spoke about Star Wars
• 1:08:58
  earlier, but obviously there's very obvious comparisons there
• 1:09:01
  to Nazi regime and stuff like that.
• 1:09:04
  And it's, and it's purposeful. I even George, Lucas admitted
• 1:09:06
  that like, it was done by Design and I think online is where a
• 1:09:11
  lot of it goes wrong because yeah, those are the people that
• 1:09:14
  allowed online and again off with the hobby you see it.
• 1:09:19
  At least they get like I've been noticing on Twitter, a lot, they
• 1:09:22
  really get shot down at least but there's still pockets of of
• 1:09:26
  Awful and what bothers me, especially with women in gaming
• 1:09:29
  is if I see now. Like, if I was to get into the
• 1:09:33
  hobby now, brand-new I'd go straight.
• 1:09:36
  I probably go to Facebook groups, because that's what I do
• 1:09:40
  with stuff again to know, like, what is this for group for it?
• 1:09:43
  And so I'm interested in this thing.
• 1:09:45
  Let's join this Facebook group. And then you see, just some
• 1:09:48
  awful because there's some guy in there, that's not being just
• 1:09:51
  chucked, out, whatever. And then you go.
• 1:09:54
  Yeah. So I'm not gonna do that.
• 1:09:56
  That thing actually, where is that?
• 1:09:58
  As you know you seen that but it's not representative, it's
• 1:10:01
  just a tiny part of it. So trying to just sort of like
• 1:10:05
  Get get them, get them quickly. I think is a good key and it's
• 1:10:11
  definitely getting a lot better online for that because I used
• 1:10:16
  to get into a lot of arguments all the time about women in
• 1:10:20
  gaming across Facebook forums and stuff.
• 1:10:24
  I was called a genetic freak. Women's Brains aren't made for
• 1:10:29
  it so thereby me existing makes me like an X-Man or something,
• 1:10:35
  which is kind of cool I guess. But I'd kind of like, you know,
• 1:10:39
  whether controlling Powers rather than just like you can
• 1:10:42
  play war games like the worst X-Man.
• 1:10:46
  But yeah, it's just so weird. So but now I'll kind of like I
• 1:10:52
  oversee it like a matrix not gonna get Involved.
• 1:10:57
  I'll occasionally put sarcastic, comment and then unsubscribe and
• 1:11:00
  run away. All right.
• 1:11:02
  Don't not going back because it'll take up my day.
• 1:11:04
  But seriously, like if there's anyone lurking here, that's
• 1:11:07
  reading this, please do that. This guy's an absolute dish and
• 1:11:11
  there are much nicer places. You're welcome to p.m. and I'm
• 1:11:14
  just like go away and I just want to move it forward and
• 1:11:20
  discuss your what would you say overall?
• 1:11:25
  You've But from a business perspective, what would you say
• 1:11:29
  the biggest lessons you've learned through your work with
• 1:11:32
  wargaming and Miniatures and everything.
• 1:11:35
  What part would be to stay yourself which kind of bit like
• 1:11:42
  from earlier that you can emulate to a degree but putting
• 1:11:46
  yourself into it and doing what you want to do is important and
• 1:11:51
  I've definitely struggled with that.
• 1:11:53
  So those parts where I went, right?
• 1:11:54
  I need to be taken very seriously.
• 1:11:56
  Seriously, I need to be a business every time a business,
• 1:12:00
  but you know, that proper business person.
• 1:12:02
  It's gonna make my office or gray.
• 1:12:04
  I'm gonna wear a suit. I didn't wear a suit to work.
• 1:12:06
  But almost in there, like, I'm gonna be this and we're going to
• 1:12:10
  be proper and all the posts are going to be really formal.
• 1:12:14
  And like it's not me and people know it's not you as well.
• 1:12:18
  So, a very much put a lot of myself into it now.
• 1:12:21
  And I even at trade shows a spare, right?
• 1:12:23
  I need to look like the other guys because this The people
• 1:12:26
  that successful, I need to look like this.
• 1:12:30
  And I went, it's not me though and that's why I'm doing this, I
• 1:12:35
  want it to be, you know. And so now we have balloons and
• 1:12:40
  coloring in stands and and it's entirely different, but it takes
• 1:12:44
  a lot of confidence to be able to do that because obviously,
• 1:12:47
  I'm blowing up a load of rainbow balloons and girls.
• 1:12:51
  Looking at me like what is this? That has arrived in our Hobby.
• 1:12:55
  And and now Now, you know, people love it because they're
• 1:12:57
  like, yes, that's the standing with the rainbow balloons and
• 1:13:00
  our kids love. It's cool because it's like,
• 1:13:02
  it's a really welcoming. I had a lovely comment Expo
• 1:13:06
  where someone's like a feel bit intimidated by lot of War games
• 1:13:09
  because you've come from board game land.
• 1:13:11
  Should I want to get into it? But I feel intimidated but I'm
• 1:13:13
  not intimidated on your stand. Like, yes.
• 1:13:16
  And a lot of what the success of bad squid.
• 1:13:19
  Oh, I don't think it would have been there if I hadn't just been
• 1:13:23
  been true to myself but basically But there was a lot to
• 1:13:27
  be said for it. There's obviously you know
• 1:13:30
  business elements to put into things I wouldn't go fully never
• 1:13:35
  go full 100% Annie. This is way off alarms, but
• 1:13:39
  yeah, you can make it your own thing.
• 1:13:40
  You don't have to do what everyone else does because it
• 1:13:45
  obviously works to some degree as it's been at working for
• 1:13:48
  those people. But there's always going to be
• 1:13:51
  fresh ways to do stuff and I've always wanted to make something
• 1:13:55
  that other people. People aren't doing because
• 1:13:58
  otherwise, what's the point? Thank you so much for sharing.
• 1:14:04
  What's the best advice you've ever received?
• 1:14:08
  Oh, It's probably.
• 1:14:26
  God, I know it's probably a long lines of screwing around.
• 1:14:34
  Yeah it was probably that don't necessarily.
• 1:14:38
  Yeah, coffee what everyone else does be yourself to some to some
• 1:14:44
  degree. I'm sure there's some awesome
• 1:14:46
  advice that all think of layer but but yeah well I'm gonna piss
• 1:14:52
  you for that. What's the biggest life lesson
• 1:14:53
  you've ever learned? This is what this what this
• 1:14:59
  question this is the thing. The reason the reason I ask
• 1:15:02
  these two questions is that it's like two different perspectives
• 1:15:05
  because the best advice thing is like what someone else has told
• 1:15:09
  you, but then life lesson is more like you in your own life.
• 1:15:14
  Personal to you that you've learned that's like ah okay you
• 1:15:18
  know and there's many isn't there that we've learned
• 1:15:20
  throughout life but I do is there one particular life lesson
• 1:15:22
  that speaks out to you like yeah, this I think the trust
• 1:15:27
  trust your gut, and, and believe in yourself, there's a lot to be
• 1:15:32
  said for it. Especially when there's so many
• 1:15:34
  people that just exists to put you down.
• 1:15:37
  And it's and it's the whole thing where it's, it's not you,
• 1:15:40
  it's them. And I think that's got me
• 1:15:42
  through a lot of things Oregon. It's not personal what they are
• 1:15:46
  doing, is then it's whatever's going on with them and their own
• 1:15:50
  history in their own heads into making them say that to you.
• 1:15:54
  Hmm. So yeah.
• 1:15:55
  It's It's not about you, it's about them.
• 1:15:58
  So just to keep persevering and, you know, if you think
• 1:16:01
  something's you've really got your heart on something, just do
• 1:16:04
  it. And don't let someone we all
• 1:16:06
  over it. Basically, I needed to hear that
• 1:16:09
  today. Thank you.
• 1:16:11
  This just think about stuff on there for the moment.
• 1:16:13
  It was like, yeah, yeah, thanks for that.
• 1:16:16
  And as we draw things to a close for today, do you have any
• 1:16:18
  upcoming projects or some final thoughts?
• 1:16:20
  You'd like to share with all this?
• 1:16:21
  This, well, probably projects were mostly just catching up.
• 1:16:25
  From expert, the moment sewing out tree pain, which is what you
• 1:16:28
  should look up because that will be in the shop afterwards and
• 1:16:31
  you'll be able to get into the pledge manager late if you want
• 1:16:33
  to even sooner and check out the advert.
• 1:16:37
  If you haven't seen it with Christian, riefler and I've been
• 1:16:40
  quoting it a lot as well. So yes, with you forever and
• 1:16:52
  just check us out. I'm from all over the internet.
• 1:16:55
  Even if you're not into minis, we do a lot of just general.
• 1:16:58
  Cool stuff like pens and learning about wearing from
• 1:17:02
  history, if you just basically put that's quite a game.
• 1:17:05
  Sure, we'll put links somewhere below be all over the internet.
• 1:17:09
  Come give us a follow. You don't even have to buy
• 1:17:11
  anything it's free. And yeah, we do cool stuff like
• 1:17:15
  coloring in as well. So you should definitely check
• 1:17:17
  this out. And yeah, yeah, that's not what
• 1:17:20
  should I say? What should I say?
• 1:17:21
  Guinea pigs. Yes, we have lots of guinea pigs
• 1:17:23
  can look any Pig stuff. Cool.
• 1:17:25
  You pigs guinea pigs. Well, listen.
• 1:17:29
  It's been an absolute pleasure. Having you on the show?
• 1:17:32
  It's one of the same. Massive.
• 1:17:33
  Thank you. And wish you all the best with
• 1:17:35
  your with your projects and your business.
• 1:17:37
  Thank you very much. I look forward to doing some
• 1:17:40
  other stuff with you as well at some points.
• 1:17:42
  I would love that. We're D voices and stuff.
• 1:17:49
  Okay, what's okay. Thank you.
• 1:17:51
  Thank you so much, and to the listeners of Christian way
• 1:17:53
  podcast, as always be safe. Safe we well and I'll see you in
• 1:17:58
  the next.