Latest / Identity at the Center / #344 - IDAC + IDPro with Heather Flanagan

Transcript

#344 - IDAC + IDPro with Heather Flanagan · Identity at the Center

0:00
Oh my God. The identity at center.
0:02
Podcast is, is now the official podcast of ID Pro.
0:07
I mean, there's some enthusiasm here because I'm extremely
0:09
excited about this identity. At and we are too, so don't let
0:12
my smooth, calm, collected voice, you know, be that.
0:16
But yes, it is super exciting. Yeah, Calm and collected is not
0:20
so much my thing, but no, it it came about at a really good time
0:24
because ID Pro had been doing the ID Pro show, which is was a
0:28
series of videos we did about, I want to say about two dozen of
0:32
them, where we would interview ID Pro members just to learn
0:36
about how other people kind of like the first question you
0:39
start with in the Identity of the Center podcast, starting
0:42
with the well, how did you end up here?
0:44
You know what got you into identity?
0:46
And just the range of information just coming out of
0:50
that was brilliant. There wasn't a single one who
0:53
said, no, no, this is exactly what I intended in my career
0:56
debate. So, but that was coming to an
0:58
end. As you both can attest, putting
1:01
these together is time consuming and can be kind of expensive.
1:05
And so we were, we were just wrapping it up.
1:08
I have one more that I need to get posted.
1:09
And as soon as I'm somewhere where I can actually download
1:12
and post that, I will. But as we're wrapping this up,
1:16
Jim reached out to me and said, hey, what do you think of this
1:19
idea of making Identity at the Centre the essential podcast of
1:22
IT Pro? And I'm like, yes, yes, yes,
1:25
this is great. And I said, sure, that sounds
1:27
like a lovely idea. Thank you.
1:33
This is identity at the centre if it has anything to do with
1:40
IAM. This is the go to podcast now
1:46
your host Jim McDonald and Jeff Stedman.
1:54
Welcome to the Identity at the Center podcast.
1:55
I'm Jeff, and that's Jim. Hey, Jim.
1:57
Hey, Jeff, how are you? Oh, not so bad yourself.
2:01
I'm good man, it's spring actually I had my lawn mowed
2:03
today for the first time in like 6 months.
2:06
I mean, it happened about an hour ago, so imagine that time
2:10
and got lucky that it wasn't during the episode, because I'm
2:14
sure you wouldn't be happy with all that noise in the
2:17
background. But I've got to say, I'm not
2:18
real happy with your camera. What the heck's going on?
2:21
Yeah, I'm not happy either. 45 minutes before Showtime, my
2:25
normal Sony camera decided that it wouldn't want to stay on
2:28
anymore and kept overheating. So I think there's probably a
2:30
new camera in line. This is the second time that
2:33
I've tried to fix this this week, but yeah, so I'm slumming
2:36
it amongst the peasants on a webcam today, so we'll just have
2:39
to kind of deal with it. I know we're usually used to
2:41
crystal clear Jeff and we had AI Jeff for a while.
2:45
Now it's just normal Jeff. Peasant Jeff.
2:48
That I'm I'm just Jeff, that's all I can do.
2:51
You know, maybe I could do some things in post production to fix
2:53
colors or do something. I don't know, but we'll see.
2:57
Look, it's camera. Let's hope the content is better
3:00
than the camera this week. Yeah.
3:02
So I mean, it's spring. It's time for, you know, getting
3:07
outside, enjoying the fresh air, not checking your retirement
3:11
balance because that's probably not so good.
3:14
And it's just time to kind of get ready for summer.
3:19
Yeah, yeah. Let's just leave it at that.
3:23
Let's maybe talk conferences, identity beers, like where do
3:27
you want to start, Jim? Yeah, well, that's where I was
3:29
leaving things was, you know, summer to me.
3:31
It's conference season. Sebastian Rohr posted on He sold
3:36
me out on LinkedIn. He said, you know, you really
3:39
the reason you're going to Europe is to hit as many
3:42
identity beers as you possibly can.
3:44
There's a little more to it than that, you know, but there's
3:47
nothing. Wrong with that.
3:48
Come on. I mean, that's a totally
3:49
legitimate reason. I I appreciate that, Jeff.
3:52
I totally agree. I mean, you know, getting out
3:55
there, meeting people, enjoying a beer, Why not?
3:58
Yeah, I mean, we got a great community.
4:00
Take advantage of it. I mean, the Identibier thing is
4:02
pretty cool. I think we're going to try to
4:04
hit one in Berlin, I think the day before EIC.
4:07
And we were talking in the Slack channel and our friend Espen
4:10
sent me a link to Martin Sandrin's Identibier tracker on
4:15
GitHub. So for people who are interested
4:16
in that sort of thing, Martin's done a great job of kind of
4:19
collecting that information. And then I'll put that in our
4:22
show notes. But I know Espen's working on, I
4:23
think there's actually a website.
4:25
So I'm not sure if it's up and running yet or if it's been
4:27
updated. But there, there is lots of
4:29
events all over the world really.
4:31
And so it's a great community. Take advantage.
4:34
Yeah, I think one of the things that has been so great about
4:37
doing this podcast with you is that we've got to meet great
4:41
people like Martin and like Espen who are really community
4:45
builders in their own right. I mean, they're out there
4:49
putting these events together, making sure people know about
4:52
them and creating this welcoming environment.
4:54
And that's what makes I think the identity community is so
4:58
special. I don't obviously know what all
5:00
the other non identity communities are like, but I know
5:04
this one is very welcoming. And you know, as evidenced by
5:08
the episode today, we've got the president from the, I know I'm
5:14
going against the grain here by talking about our our guests for
5:18
today, but the ID Pro has been a great rally point as well for
5:23
this community. Yeah, So yeah, we're going to
5:26
get to her in a second here. But yes, and not the president
5:30
know she's going to correct it, but the executive director for
5:32
ID Pro. But for, you know, people who
5:36
aren't familiar, we're going to have a chat with Heather here in
5:39
a couple minutes and really kind of get into that.
5:41
We made some waves an announcement what I one of the
5:43
most popular things that I've posted a long time on LinkedIn
5:45
got a lot of traction. So we'll talk about that in a
5:48
second. But I'm looking forward to
5:49
seeing her at a couple conferences that are you and I
5:51
are both going to be at. We're going to be at EIC in a
5:54
couple weeks, so by the time people listen this, hopefully
5:57
they've got things booked and we'll see them there.
5:58
But that's May 6th through the 9th.
6:00
That's the European Identity and Cloud Conference.
6:03
And if you use the code ID AC25 MKO, that'll get you 25% off.
6:08
We'll have a link in our show notes so you don't have to
6:09
remember all that stuff. You can go ahead and click
6:11
there. It's also on our homepage,
6:12
idacpodcast.com. I always put our discounts right
6:15
on the the homepage there. And then after that, Jim, we're
6:18
going to be at Identiverse in Las Vegas.
6:20
That is June 3rd through the 6th and if you use the code IDV 25-I
6:24
D AC25, you get 25% off. Again, those codes will be in
6:28
our show notes. She is a world traveller.
6:31
I already know what my first question is going to be when I
6:35
introduce you here, but let's get Heather Flanagan, the
6:37
executive director for ID Pro on the show.
6:39
She's been with us before, but although it's been a while too
6:41
long, in fact, episode 228 back in August of 2023.
6:45
So I'm not going to ask her our traditional first question of
6:48
how'd you get an identity because we she's already
6:49
answered that. But welcome to the show,
6:51
Heather. Hello, Jeff.
6:54
Hello, Jim. It's good to see you both again.
6:56
Well, it's great to have you here, so let me ask the the most
6:59
pertinent question top of mind for me.
7:01
Where in the world is Heather Flanagan today?
7:04
Well, physically I'm currently in Mountain View, CA attending
7:08
the Internet Identity workshop. But that's like today.
7:13
On Monday I was at MIT for a a private workshop with some
7:17
incredibly smart people and that was an all day thing.
7:19
And last week I was at the University of Reading
7:22
facilitating an unconference for Academic Identity Federation
7:27
people. So bouncing around the world as
7:30
one does. Well, as one does, you say that
7:33
so nonchalantly, like everyone's flying coast to coast and all
7:36
around the world all the time. A little bit of a outlier there,
7:39
Heather, to be honest. All right, look, just because
7:42
the the flight attendants tell me I'm travelling more than they
7:44
do, you're you're suggesting that this is excessive?
7:48
Hey, there's nothing wrong with it.
7:49
Travel's awesome. Everybody should be able to do
7:51
it. I think maybe if you're on a
7:52
first name basis with flight attendants, you know, maybe
7:55
there's there's something to say about that.
7:57
Maybe vary up your flight schedule a little bit.
7:58
But I'm a fan of travel. Get out, see the world, see
8:01
other, you know, countries, cultures, people, all that good
8:05
stuff. So I think it's great that you
8:06
get. Conference rooms in basements
8:08
with no windows? Yes, yes, I see a lot of those.
8:11
All the terrible hotel Wi-Fi that you can try to connect to.
8:13
So you know, all that stuff. So we made some waves recently,
8:19
Heather. We made an announcement.
8:21
Yeah. So for those who haven't seen or
8:24
heard or visited our web page in a little bit, Identity Center is
8:27
now the official podcast for ID Pro, which is fantastic because
8:31
Jim and I have been members for a long time and been very big
8:34
supporters of it. I guess take us behind the
8:37
scenes maybe of, you know, how did that kind of come together
8:39
or you know, we have we obviously have our version of it
8:41
was like, hey, it's probably not as complicated as people thought
8:44
it was, but but you know, I just want to get your thoughts on
8:47
that announcement. So it's kind of funny how you
8:50
said it. You said it in just a, a lovely,
8:52
you know, flat tone. Yes.
8:54
Identity at the Center is now the official podcast of IT Pro,
8:56
which is not at all how I say it.
8:58
How I say it when when it comes up is like, Oh my God.
9:01
The identity at center. Podcast is is now the official
9:06
podcast of ID pro. I mean, there's some enthusiasm
9:08
here because I'm extremely excited about this identity at
9:12
and. We are too, so don't let my
9:13
smooth, calm, collected voice, you know, be that.
9:16
But yes, it is super exciting. Yeah, Calm and collected is not
9:20
so much my thing, but no, it it came about at a really good time
9:25
because ID Pro had been doing the ID Pro show, which is was a
9:28
series of videos we did about, I want to say about two dozen of
9:32
them, where we would interview ID Pro members just to learn
9:37
about how other people kind of like the first question you
9:39
start with in the Identity of the Center podcast, starting
9:42
with the well, how did you end up here?
9:45
You know what got you into identity?
9:47
And just the range of information just coming out of
9:50
that was brilliant. There wasn't a single one who
9:54
said, no, no, this is exactly what I intended in my career
9:56
today. So but that was coming to an
9:59
end. As you both can attest, putting
10:01
these together is time consuming and can be kind of expensive.
10:05
And so we were, we were just wrapping it up.
10:08
I have one more that I need to get posted and as soon as I'm
10:11
somewhere where I can actually download and post that, I will.
10:15
But as we're wrapping this up, Jim reached out to me and said,
10:17
hey, what do you think of this idea of making Identity at the
10:21
Center, the essential podcast of ID Pro?
10:23
And I'm like, yes, yes, yes, this is great.
10:27
And I said, sure, that sounds like a lovely idea.
10:28
Thank you. Excellent negotiator for sure.
10:32
Yeah, no, it's super cool. Like, you know, you guys had a
10:35
great show and we're happy to support, you know, everything
10:37
that ID Pro does. And I think it's a natural
10:40
alignment for us because we try to be vendor neutral, especially
10:43
on our sort of normal episodes. Yes, we do some sponsored stuff,
10:46
but as you said, you know, running a podcast is expensive.
10:49
So we try to defray some of those costs with it.
10:51
And look, I we're such big fans of ID Pro, right?
10:56
I've been a member since I think the beginning 2017 or whatever
10:59
it was. I think what was announced in at
11:01
the Chicago conference. I think Jim followed pretty
11:04
closely right after, I think, as he found out.
11:06
And we've been, you know, somewhat active, I think in the
11:09
Slack channel, and maybe we'll be more active now.
11:12
I've tried to be more active over the last couple weeks with
11:14
the announcement, but it's such a good community.
11:16
It's such a good resource for really everybody in the space,
11:20
whether you're just starting out, if you're curious about
11:23
what the heck this IAM thing is, or if you've been in the space
11:26
for like decades or maybe for some people's centuries, you
11:31
know, it could be, you know, a a great resource and there's so
11:33
many different chat channels. It's not going to just talk
11:35
about identity. Like I think I see something in
11:38
the Ideniverse conference channel talk about people going
11:41
to see the John Wick experience at Area 15, which like I'm all
11:45
in for that. Like that sounds awesome.
11:46
Area 15 is very cool, by the way.
11:48
If nobody's ever been there, definitely check it out.
11:50
But there's such a good community.
11:52
And, and, and I keep coming back to this word of community
11:54
because it is that this is not secret sauce for a lot of
11:58
people. We're all in this typically,
12:02
right, to protect our users, you know, reduce risk, make things
12:05
easier for folks, right? All that kind of things.
12:07
And yes, there's vendors and stuff like that who have
12:09
products in that space. But generally speaking, most of
12:12
us are like, yeah, that's a great idea.
12:13
We should do that too. And you know, all these really
12:17
smart people getting together and learning from each other is
12:19
just super awesome. So I couldn't be happier, even
12:21
though maybe my tone is a little bit even and cool.
12:25
There are about. So let me talk a little bit
12:27
about the Slack instance because I think that's the the like the
12:30
single, I don't know if I want to call it the single best thing
12:33
that ID Pro offers, but it's certainly the single best member
12:36
only benefit that ID Pro offers because it's, it is not a free
12:40
Slack instance. It is a paid for Slack instance,
12:42
which means we have got years of history.
12:44
So if you go into say the SAML channel, there's just so much
12:50
material there that people can learn from.
12:53
There are about at last check about 120 different channels.
12:57
Obviously some are more active than others and they they do
13:00
range from authorization, authentication, IGA, password,
13:05
less human factor identity, pets very important.
13:07
We've got to have a place to share our cat and dog photos.
13:11
Pit boss if you're into smoking BBQ, there is there's like a
13:14
little crew that does that too. There is conference submissions
13:19
is one of my favorite Slack channels because that's
13:23
anecdotally speaking, my observation in going to all of
13:26
these conferences that I do is that so many of the speakers are
13:32
ID pro members. And I think part of that is
13:34
because we have this conference submission channel where we give
13:37
each other feedback as soon as a call for papers opens, it gets
13:40
announced there. And and you can say, hey, I've
13:43
got this idea and you iterate on it with a community to say, is
13:48
it good? Does it make sense?
13:49
Is it compelling? Would you want to go to this?
13:53
And the acceptance rate feels like it is fairly high.
13:57
So it's great, great resource. It's a good idea, like peer
14:00
review and say, yeah, is this good idea or not?
14:03
Or am I just crazy? I mean, there's a lot of stuff
14:05
that has come out of the identity space that's been like,
14:07
yeah, this is just an idea. You know, I think Ian Glaser
14:09
was, you know, one of those things recently, this whole
14:12
modern identity concept that he kind of put out there.
14:14
And it's like, all right, here's this thing, have fun, Go play
14:18
with it, right? Expand that.
14:19
Yeah, pretty much, pretty much. I mean, of course, we do have
14:22
more resources that aren't member only and yet that
14:24
membership helps support like the ID pro body of knowledge,
14:28
which is, you know, my, my other favorite thing because before I
14:31
was executive director, I was the I was and remain the
14:34
principal editor for the body of college, which you know, that
14:38
we've got close to three dozen articles there written by
14:42
subject matter experts that I then get peer reviewed by not
14:47
necessarily ID pro members, but usually come in and say, is this
14:50
right? Does this make sense?
14:52
Is this useful to and is it, as we always say, vendor neutral,
14:57
giving piece of people a place to start to just try and
14:59
understand what, where, where do I even pull the thread to Start
15:02
learning about what's critical in identity?
15:06
And I was, I'm glad you mentioned the body knowledge
15:08
because that was the other thing I was going to bring up because
15:10
really a lot of the knowledge that goes into that and it's a
15:13
lot of just really good, well written, smart articles and
15:16
blogs and explainers and pretty much everything you can help for
15:20
really kind of feeds into the CID Pro certification.
15:23
So maybe kind of tell us a little bit about the CID Pro
15:25
certification, because I know that was kind of a momentous
15:27
event to get something out there.
15:29
It was putting that together was a lot of fun.
15:32
That's another concept that we wanted to have some kind of
15:37
certification that people who have two years of experience in
15:41
the identity space. That's actually a really
15:43
important point. The experience point would be
15:46
able to take this exam, pass the exam, and be able to demonstrate
15:50
a baseline of understanding more broadly.
15:53
The questions were put together by subject matter experts going
15:57
through, you know, in partnership with people who
16:00
actually know how to write test questions, which proves to be a
16:02
lot harder than you would think it should be, and then turn that
16:07
out into the world. It's about time for it to be
16:09
refreshed. When we first, when we first put
16:12
the exam together, one of the things that was interesting was
16:15
of course, the body of knowledge isn't a complete resource.
16:20
If you read everything in the body of knowledge, that wouldn't
16:23
be really quite enough to give you everything to pass the exam.
16:28
One, you do need operational experience.
16:31
Two, we didn't have that many, you know, nearly as many
16:34
articles as we do today. So it's the core resource to
16:38
support the CID Pro, but it's not the only resource.
16:41
And if you go to the website, you can see the other the other
16:44
things that we reference, some of which intimidate the heck out
16:47
of people 'cause we're like, yeah, NIST 863 is a resource you
16:51
should be familiar with. To which people have come to me
16:53
saying, wait, wait, I have to, I have to know all the gory
16:57
details of the entirety of this 863.
16:59
And I'm like, well, no, but you do need to know what it is kind
17:05
of kind of like that. Or if it's something like, you
17:07
know, recite the the first verse and passage of Samuel, something
17:12
like that, right? I, I would love to see, and it's
17:15
just me personally speaking, like there's a lot of, I would
17:17
say less technical identity people, but how can we include
17:22
them as part of this? Because I think right or wrong,
17:24
there is sort of AI don't know perception that if you're an
17:28
identity person, you're a technical person.
17:29
That is not always the case. So how do we help?
17:33
Maybe some of those folks would be something maybe interesting
17:35
to tackle. I've talked with Andy Handel
17:36
about this sort of the business of I am is sort of the way I
17:39
kind of put it because it's such an important part.
17:42
Yes, the technology standards are great.
17:43
Yes, understanding, you know what the difference between SSO
17:46
and MFA and two FA, right? And all this other stuff might
17:49
be good knowledge, but it doesn't do any good if you can't
17:52
actually get your organization to do anything about it.
17:55
So I think ideas right on, on maybe ways to you know get the
17:59
business side of I am up and running.
18:01
I think that's an area that might be interesting to explore
18:02
for the future. Just an idea.
18:04
I think it's a good idea when people do ask me about the, you
18:08
know, well, I, I don't, I'm, I'm not technical.
18:11
How do I, how do I engage? And like, well, I'm a librarian
18:16
with a history degree. You know, as it turns out, it
18:20
takes all kinds. You know, the, the things that I
18:25
do in the world today involve helping engineers and developers
18:31
and architects stay organized, right?
18:35
Because as it turns out, they're usually not very good at that,
18:39
bless them, but they need that. There's this, there's this gap
18:45
of if everybody was technical in the same way, then you would
18:49
fail. You wouldn't have all of the
18:51
resources that you need. You wouldn't have the people
18:53
that actually know how to communicate really well.
18:55
You wouldn't have people that actually can project manage,
18:59
which is a which is its own skill set.
19:00
You wouldn't have necessarily the the business strategic
19:03
thinkers as you point out, right.
19:04
It does take all kinds and those folks that step away going,
19:08
yeah, but I can't read a spec and understand it.
19:10
Therefore I couldn't possibly I can't read a spec and understand
19:13
it. So it's not.
19:15
That's not the bars that you should be aiming for.
19:19
I totally agree with that. Yeah.
19:21
I mean, there's just, you know, you mentioned it kind of early
19:23
on when you first joined in and we were talking about the the ID
19:25
Pro show and all the varied backgrounds, right?
19:27
We start with our show, right as well.
19:29
It's like, OK, so how'd you get into space?
19:31
The vast majority of people did not choose identity.
19:34
That's just a working theory I've had for years.
19:37
And it seems to have proved itself out, at least in our our
19:39
data that we've collected. There is so much room for all
19:43
kinds of sorts. I feel like if you've got the
19:45
attitude and the desire, there is a spot for you, right?
19:49
And there's places to learn and stuff like that.
19:51
It may take a little bit to maybe get where you want to go,
19:53
right? Depending on sort of, you know,
19:54
how long you've been in the space and connections and stuff
19:57
like that. But I'm totally a fan of it.
19:59
One thing that I think is really interesting that I want to pivot
20:02
a little bit here is to talk about the identity Salon.
20:04
It's something I wanted to ask Andy about last time he was on
20:06
the show. Didn't get a chance to do it.
20:08
Tell me about the Identity Salon and are you an identity stylist?
20:14
Here, let me toss my hair. So the identity salon came out
20:19
of an interesting observation in the, in the, in the same way
20:22
that unconferences came out of the observation that so much of
20:26
the useful conversation happens in the hallways.
20:30
So why don't you just have a meeting of hallway
20:32
conversations? This came out of the out of the
20:34
observation that a lot of the we'll, we'll pick on
20:38
identifiers, which I'm chief of staff for that conference again
20:41
this year, right? So, but, but it's obviously one
20:43
of my favorite events, but I'm going to pick on it for a minute
20:46
because it's aiming to have, you know, anywhere between 3 and
20:49
5000 people attend and it needs to find the common denominator
20:55
for what would be of most value to the most people attending.
21:00
OK, that's, that's reasonable. But what about the other people,
21:04
right? What about the people who have
21:06
been the enterprise architects for 15 or 20 years?
21:10
Or you know, the the people who are very, very senior, they're
21:13
not going to get out anything out of identity one O 1.
21:18
They're just, they're just not. They might go to to support
21:21
people, but that's not really what the conversation they want
21:24
to have. On top of that, you get an
21:27
interesting challenge of when you bring in the enterprise
21:30
architects from big companies. Well, you know, like big
21:33
automotive companies or something like that.
21:36
They can't necessarily talk about what they're doing in a
21:41
public venue. So here's where the identity
21:43
salon comes in. It is what we're trying to do is
21:46
put together a space for the the senior level people to come in
21:51
and talk about the challenges that they're seeing as you know,
21:55
10 year horizon problems, not the how can I deploy pass keys,
22:00
which is certainly an important conversation to have, but maybe
22:04
it's the OK, assuming pass keys have been deployed, what's the
22:08
next thing? What's the problem we haven't
22:11
come close to solving yet that we're going to have to figure
22:13
out how to do in our environments?
22:16
On top of that, it's held under the Chatham House Rule, which
22:20
you really should have asked Andy about that because it comes
22:22
across so much better when when a British person sets that out.
22:26
But suffice to say, Chatham House Rule means that while you
22:29
can use the information that you received from an event, you
22:33
cannot attribute that information.
22:35
And so you don't say, hey, Andy said, and Andy is affiliated
22:39
with Hindle Consulting. I can totally pick on him for
22:41
this because everybody knows he's involved.
22:45
That offers an interesting level of freedom to the enterprise
22:49
architects because they can do a lot more conversation about
22:53
what's happening in their world, knowing that that information
22:56
will be held in reasonable confidence.
23:00
So we had our very first like proto event asked just before
23:05
authenticated last year we had our second full day in person
23:08
event in March and we we try intervening have virtual events.
23:14
We keep these events small because the important part is
23:17
having conversations. We have a newsletter that that
23:22
comes out after the events that talks a little bit about what we
23:26
have. We have reports that come out of
23:27
these events that goes into a lot more detail.
23:30
And someone asked me, can you write a report under the Chatham
23:32
House rule? Yes.
23:34
And I happen to be very good at that actually, because I never
23:37
remember anybody's name. So I just type away.
23:41
But like all this documentation, which then becomes useful and
23:44
then they can take back in. If people are interested in
23:47
getting their name like on the list as we're looking to mix up
23:50
who's going to be in the the next conversation, go to
23:54
theidentitysalon.com and you can see more information.
23:58
It's right now it is it's entirely supported by
24:05
essentially by sponsors, but the sponsors don't get the list of
24:10
who attended, for example, right there is there are limits.
24:13
They do get their logo in front of people depending on the level
24:16
they come in. They do get like thought
24:18
leadership white papers that can be added to the report, but we
24:23
might be moving into a a more of a subscription model going
24:26
forward. But we haven't decided that.
24:28
It's still pretty darn new for us.
24:29
So we're exploring opportunities.
24:32
I think it's such a cool idea and I think you kind of
24:34
addressed my, my natural follow up question is how does one get
24:37
involved? Is this invite only?
24:40
Is this, you know, you submit an application and sort of get
24:43
reviewed to see if that makes sense?
24:45
Like if I said, OK, I'd like to be in a discussion like this or
24:48
I think I have something to share, like what's my step to
24:51
try and get involved in here? Your step is to go to that
24:54
website and at the bottom of the page there is a a link to For
24:58
more information sign up here. And that gets you on the list
25:02
that Andy, Ian and I see. And from there that, like I
25:07
said, as we as we think about the next in person event will be
25:12
again, be before authenticate and we'll be thinking of what
25:16
does the agenda for that need to be?
25:17
And therefore, who, who, what would be the best mix of people
25:20
in the room? And if you don't make it in the
25:22
room, you know, but you're on the list, you may you may end up
25:24
getting the report anyway. So and the virtual events are
25:28
not quite as as strict, though they are also held under the
25:30
Chatham House rule. I love the Chatham House rule.
25:34
This podcast is under the Chatham House rule too.
25:37
So you can quote Jim McDonald without saying Jim McDonald's
25:40
name. Just kidding.
25:43
We put our ideas out there all the time and they may be right
25:46
or they may be wrong. So I guess maybe it is Chatham
25:51
House rule. I like that.
25:53
As far as what you mentioned about the Identity Salon, we'll
25:55
put the link in the show notes. I also wanted to comment, you
25:59
brought up the NIST 800-63 and you mentioned that is kind of a
26:04
starting point for people. I sometimes refer to that as
26:07
like the Bible of identity and access management and whether or
26:12
not you agree with that. There's another I heard Jim
26:15
McDonald say, but I, I've said that before that I kind of see
26:19
it that way. I've been aware of it since
26:21
2014. It just gives a framework for
26:24
thinking about placing the proper identity controls based
26:29
on the context of the situation, the risk presented by the
26:33
access. We've had Ryan Galuzzo, he's,
26:37
you know, the person kind of writing the revision right now
26:40
or leading the writing of the revision of 863.
26:44
So I'd say go back and check out some of those episodes for
26:47
people who are interested in learning more.
26:49
I'd also say a lot of content out there on YouTube as kind of
26:54
a starting point. But I think, you know, as you
26:57
get more, hopefully get more interested in the topic, it's
27:00
something that you can actually read the paper from end to end.
27:04
There's three parts, AB and C. So I think that that that's
27:08
great advice. In terms of one of the great
27:11
references in terms of how to think about applying identity
27:15
controls. What I wanted to talk to you a
27:19
little bit about, I'll give you a softball question.
27:23
The Identity of the Center podcast is definitely
27:25
internationally focused. So about a third of our
27:28
listeners are based in the US. The rest are throughout the
27:31
world, from using the Slack channel for ID Pro, from just
27:37
kind of seeing the membership list and knowing who these folks
27:41
are. They're global.
27:44
Is ID Pro a global organization? Absolutely, absolutely.
27:51
We regularly have people participating from Australia,
27:56
from Japan, of course from Europe.
27:59
We don't have quite the, the African representation that I
28:01
really wish we had, but it is the, the, I think the barrier to
28:08
entry in terms of people feeling.
28:11
There's two things that are preventing people from feeling
28:12
necessarily comfortable in participating in something like
28:15
ID Pro, one of which is whether they feel comfortable with
28:18
English as the primary language that that is something that
28:21
people often struggle with. And the other thing is the
28:26
culture of openness is not universal.
28:31
And so, you know, the fact I, I am perfectly happy to post and
28:36
say I don't know something help. That's not a universally
28:41
comfortable concept. And so there are a lot of
28:43
cultures where you know they'll come in, they'll lurk, but they
28:48
won't necessarily participate because you just don't want to
28:50
be seen as stupid. Great, though.
28:53
Oh, that's a great point. Now in terms of the
28:55
manifestation of that, that global presence, I mean, I, Jeff
29:00
and I are attending EIC for the first time.
29:02
It's our first international identity conference.
29:07
I see that there's a lot of presence from ID pro people in
29:12
terms of the speaker list. Talk to me about identity pros,
29:17
you know presence there at DIC. We are one of their partners and
29:23
we are expanding that partnership actually with Kepner
29:25
Cole to be even more than just the EIC conference.
29:29
But I'll, I'll have a separate announcement about that in the
29:32
future. Suffice to say that's that's
29:33
happening. We have a, we for the past
29:38
several years we've had a workshop on Tuesday before the
29:41
formal start of the conference and this year is no different.
29:43
We have a workshop where one of the things, what we're
29:46
presenting for the audience's consideration is job
29:53
descriptions. It's an interesting thing,
29:57
right? How, how do you actually
29:59
describe an identity related job?
30:02
And what do you tell your HR department when you say, OK,
30:06
I'm, I'm want to hire an architect.
30:08
What are the requirements? What are we looking for?
30:10
I want to hire a junior person. What are the requirements?
30:13
What are we looking for? So Elizabeth Garber, who had
30:16
been working with ID Pro for, for quite a while to help put
30:20
together in like the initial library of of templates for job
30:25
descriptions in the identity space that companies could then
30:29
use definitely adapt to their more specific needs.
30:33
Because we tried to keep it vendor neutral, but you may put
30:35
in there as a requirement. No, you, you must have
30:38
experience with Entra or something like that, right.
30:41
But but that's the that's the thing we want to put in there to
30:45
again, make it just a little bit easier to describe what does an
30:49
identity professional do and to make and to later sort of see
30:54
that through an organization such that you can hand this to
30:56
your HR department even and say this is what an identity
30:59
professional does and this is what we need.
31:01
So that's what that's going to be Tuesday morning of EIC.
31:05
That's a really cool concept. I mean, I'm, I'm sure it's
31:08
something that everyone is going, has either faced or is
31:12
going to face in terms of trying to identify identity talent.
31:15
I mean, I'd love to get your perspective when it comes to the
31:19
upcoming crop of identity talent.
31:22
I mean, we hear about all the time that there's a real
31:24
shortage of talent. And at the same time, a lot of
31:28
the lot of folks reach out to me and they're looking for that
31:31
entry level role. It's like everything requires
31:33
experience. I mean, I'm sure you see that as
31:36
well. And what are your thoughts or
31:38
what kind of tips would you give people?
31:40
One of the questions you you guys asked me in the the first
31:43
time I was on the show is like, how did I get started in this,
31:46
right? How did I get started in
31:47
identity? And I didn't, I never thought
31:52
that identity wasn't part of everything I did, right?
31:55
I as a, as a Galacticon bulletin board system operator in 1995.
32:00
What was my job? My job was figuring out who had,
32:04
you know, what accounts were needed, who had them and what
32:07
they had access to. That's the core of identity
32:10
management right there. You shift that up to OK, send
32:13
OS413 for the win, Who has access?
32:17
What are the groups involved? How do you manage that?
32:20
You're back to identity, right? Identity is in pretty much every
32:24
aspect of online services. So if you want to get involved
32:30
in identity and you don't have experience, you you can find it.
32:36
If you get a job at an organization and you're dealing
32:39
with online services, then you will have more space to learn
32:44
about identity than you think you will.
32:46
Yeah, I think that's a great point of view.
32:48
I think you're getting something that is related where you're
32:51
doing some identity work, you start to build that experience
32:55
and then it's a jump maybe full time into the industry.
32:59
I was thinking about something else about the Slack channel.
33:03
I constantly see people posting about the Identibiers and I'm
33:07
excited. I've never been to an
33:08
Identibier. I don't know if you have and I
33:12
always wondered how did identibiers start?
33:15
Do you know how the concept came about?
33:18
And is there any kind of linkage between ID Pro and Identibier or
33:22
is it just like a natural Organism that just happens to
33:26
happen? It's a mutual admiration society
33:30
and I believe, I believe Sam Evans started it several years
33:34
ago. There's no official relationship
33:36
between the two other than, you know, I don't, you know, ID Pro
33:40
members go to identifiers and, and if you're at an identifier,
33:43
you're going to talk about ID Pro And we, we all love each
33:46
other very much because, you know, it is awesome.
33:51
I have been to an identifier and sometimes it gets a little too
33:56
loud for me because it is such an enthusiastic group, but they
34:02
are ever so much fun. So I, if I remember one thing
34:06
about you from our, our last podcast is that you're a Scotch
34:10
person. Is that OK?
34:11
Do you have to go? You have to like beer when you
34:14
go to identity beer. I'm going to sound like an
34:16
alcoholic at this point, right? I, I like interesting flavors
34:20
and therefore, yes, I like Scotch and I like the breadth of
34:23
flavors in Scotch and it's fun to just deep dive and explore on
34:26
that. But I also like beer, though not
34:29
all beers, right? I'm into multi beers.
34:31
Therefore I like the Belgian beers, the English ales, you
34:34
know, Amber's if I have to. I do not understand the concept
34:36
of an IPA. Why you want to drink a beer
34:38
that makes your mouth pucker Completely beyond me.
34:42
And I cannot drink leap beers because I don't.
34:44
Like wheat beer? Either.
34:46
So I used to like them, but I can't drink them anymore.
34:49
Not not, not since college, actually.
34:52
So yes, I also drink wine. Thank you.
34:55
And I don't have a preference between red and white.
34:58
I have a preference between good and not good, right?
35:00
I want good wine. Maybe I shouldn't have brought
35:03
up that whole whole lot of discussion.
35:06
No, absolutely. You know, so the international
35:10
angle's well in place, but you guys have, you know, the roots
35:14
in the starting in the United States and have a bitty pretty
35:19
big presence when it comes to one of the biggest conferences
35:23
in the US, ideniverse. Talk to us about ID Pros role at
35:28
Ideniverse and what you have coming up for 2025.
35:33
South, as with the IC, we are. We are considered one of the
35:36
sort of industry partners to Ideniverse.
35:39
We do have a booth which we are constantly looking for
35:42
volunteers to come in and hang out and and let people come and
35:45
say, wait, what is ID Pro? What is this thing?
35:47
Why? Why should I care?
35:49
Though most often they want to know about the the CID Pro exam.
35:54
We with my ID Pro hat on. I'm one of the two people that
35:58
does the newcomers session to just introduce people.
36:01
What does it mean to be at Ideniverse?
36:03
What is it like? What can you expect?
36:07
You know, that moment of being able to look at this crowd of
36:10
200 people and say, welcome all of you introverts to the
36:13
Identiverse conference. Glance, you know,
36:16
surreptitiously off from one side to the next because you
36:18
were surrounded by fellow introverts, and you should be
36:20
able to say hi to them even though you kind of don't want.
36:22
To yeah, One thing that that I I've never been aware of is
36:27
like, OK, linking the two conversations we had, is there
36:31
an identity that usually happens at Identiverse?
36:35
There's usually an ID pro social like Wednesday after whatever
36:43
the the conference social is going to be.
36:44
So it's usually like around 6:30 or so.
36:46
We still need to get that organized.
36:48
I have to do that as soon as I get home, but that's usually a
36:52
thing. It isn't usually an identity or
36:54
though Co branding. That would be totally fine with
36:57
me. I haven't talked to Sam about it
36:59
yet though. I should do that.
37:00
Yeah, I kind of get the sense, you know, Identity or ID Pro
37:04
Identity Center podcast. We have one thing in common,
37:07
which is vendor neutrality. It's not that we're against a
37:10
new vendor, but it's we don't want to stand for promoting 1
37:16
vendor versus another. And, you know, that's one thing
37:22
that I've learned about an identity beer because I even
37:24
offered to sponsor the one that we're doing in Oslo, which will
37:29
be in a couple of weeks. And I was told, well, that's not
37:33
really the culture. Like I said, I've never been to
37:35
1 before. But the idea is that hey,
37:37
everybody, you know, nobody pays anybody else's way at the
37:42
Identity Bureau. So I thought that was pretty
37:43
cool. That is cool.
37:46
And it's AI like it I, you know, one of the reasons I really like
37:50
the whole vendor neutrality concept is because it, it pushes
37:54
people to think about why maybe why the product they're using
38:00
does what it does the way it does.
38:02
Because if you can learn those underlying principles, it will
38:05
then serve you really well as to OK, well, if this behaves this
38:09
way, it behaves this way for a reason.
38:11
The next product, yeah, the bells, the whistles, the
38:14
dashboards, they may look all different, but the underlying
38:17
concepts about identity verification, about group
38:21
management, about access controls, you know, pick your
38:24
favorite role based or policy based or whatever based, those
38:29
principles will apply across the board.
38:31
And as soon as you enforce vendor neutrality, it makes you
38:33
think about that. So I like that.
38:35
Yeah, I at least my understanding I'm taking the CID
38:39
Pro exam, but that the exam is based on kind of vendor neutral
38:44
type questions. It's what is the best practice
38:47
or leading practice for this identity problem, right?
38:54
Yep, Yep, that's exactly. So, you know, I'm going to add 1
38:57
point about the CID Pro exam. This the single hardest thing
39:02
about the exam. This is, this is like now the
39:03
inside story. What it, what makes that exam
39:06
really, really difficult? What is the one thing that
39:08
people come back to me and say, wow, this was hard?
39:11
Yeah, it's the proctoring. It's not the questions, it's the
39:15
actual proctoring experience because since it's, since it's
39:18
an online, it's a, it's a, it's an official certification.
39:21
It's not just a random set of multiple questions.
39:24
You're actually going through a service where there's someone on
39:27
the other side staring at you to make sure that you don't, I'm
39:32
sorry if you're one of those people that just starts looking
39:34
off into the distance as you're thinking, Oh no, they don't like
39:36
that because you might have something written over there.
39:39
You know, you're not allowed to have a phone anywhere nearby,
39:42
any other computers nearby. You're not allowed to have water
39:44
nearby, right? If they hear sounds, they will
39:48
ask you to pick up your camera and move it around so that they
39:51
can inspect your room. And they'll only give you like
39:53
so many opportunities for that before they just cut you off.
39:57
So they are strict and that's not anything that IT pro
40:01
controls. Right.
40:03
And so people coming in thinking, hey, this is a
40:05
friendly community and therefore this is going to be a friendly
40:08
exam experience. It's not a friendly exam
40:09
experience. It's a it's it's a hardcore exam
40:12
experience. You already hear first, folks.
40:17
Yeah. So that's great.
40:22
Jeff, what do you think? We close out this episode.
40:26
Well, I feel like we all travel so much.
40:29
And you know, Heather, you've been fortunate to be a whole
40:31
bunch of different places. I'm curious, what do you do?
40:35
I guess what are you going to do with your off time from
40:38
traveling? Like do you have plans?
40:39
Because I think we're all going to hit conferences in Europe and
40:41
US especially over the next month or so.
40:43
But what are you going to do with your time?
40:45
Well, fascinating question. Some of that time will be spent
40:50
at home rocking back and forth, just trying to recover from all
40:53
the amount of time that I've been out on the road because.
40:55
That's a given. We all do that.
40:57
We all do that, but I have to do it really fast because I get to
41:00
go home on Saturday and I'll be home for four days.
41:04
And then I have to get to Redmond, which is basically two
41:08
hours from my house for the B Side's Seattle conference.
41:11
And I'll be there through the weekend.
41:12
And then I get to come home for five days and then I have to go
41:14
down to San Francisco because RSA is coming.
41:17
I won't be at the RSA conference, but I'll be at a pre
41:19
event that I need to do and then I get to go home for five days
41:21
and then I have to fly out to Berlin for EIC.
41:25
For EIC, I don't get to go home. I have to go to New York City
41:28
for Auth Con, which is a new conference being put on by
41:31
Fusion Auth. Great.
41:33
So I'll be there for a week, then I get to come over two
41:35
whole weeks. It's like the biggest break that
41:36
I actually have in the foreseeable future.
41:38
And then it's Ideniverse. After Ideniverse, I don't get to
41:42
go home. I have to go to something called
41:44
TNC. It used to stand for the Terrain
41:46
and Networking Conference and it's a global conference for
41:49
National Research and Education Networks and Academic Identity
41:52
Federation. So that will be in Brighton in
41:53
the UK, and then I get to come home for about 10 days and then
41:57
I have to go to Geneva for a global collaboration summit
42:02
about standards development and the geopolitical landscape that
42:05
is making things a character building experience.
42:10
The week after that is still in Geneva, where I'm trying to go
42:13
to the ITUT standards meeting because I'm addicted to
42:18
standards development. And I think it's fascinating and
42:19
I want to see what the ITU is like in their standards process.
42:23
But you have to become accredited and I have submitted
42:25
my application to attend. We'll see how that goes.
42:29
Then I have a week off. I'm not bothering coming home
42:31
because why? And then it's the ITF meeting
42:33
which will be in Madrid. My sweetheart and I had a
42:36
conversation about this July 2nd and I'm like, honey, I don't, I
42:39
don't know what to do. I can't, I don't think I can
42:41
come home. He's like, no, don't come home.
42:42
But but if you're going to be away for that one week, you have
42:46
a break. You have to take vacation it I'm
42:49
requiring that you take vacation.
42:51
And I was like, wow, how do you do that?
42:55
OK, what do I do? Well, then it was a all right,
42:57
I'm going to be in Europe. I you.
43:00
Didn't like sit down and then like write A blog on this.
43:02
OK, I need to define what vacation is and get some
43:05
standards and some parameters around this and and so.
43:07
Forth, yes, yes, that's exactly kind of what I did actually.
43:11
And I and I chose a place though I chose a place by how relaxing
43:15
will it be and how, how unlikely is it that there will ever be a
43:19
conference there? And so I probably won't ever get
43:21
to it. And so I'm going to spend a week
43:24
in Malta. Yeah, that's pretty cool.
43:27
Yeah. And just, and just take in the
43:30
sights and sounds. Or are you like the kind of
43:32
person who like has activities throughout the day or you just
43:35
like, I'm going to get there and I'm just going to kind of splay
43:38
out and just kind of see where the currents take me?
43:40
So I am a person that would like to become a, you know, basically
43:45
bed rotting for the wind and just not move.
43:47
But then I had this bad habit of them not eating because it's
43:51
like, OK, get up and eat or just continue to lay here.
43:54
So I, I really do have to get out at least once a day.
43:58
But that's OK. I've got this covered.
44:00
I'm going to, I've got a tour of some wineries.
44:02
I've got several art tours scheduled.
44:06
All of this is being planned in advance because I'm a planner.
44:09
That's what I do. Jim, what would you do with I
44:11
guess a week off in between? I mean, I know we're going to
44:13
EIC and you spent a week before that, but like what's a a
44:17
recharge cycle for you look like?
44:19
That is recharge cycle for me for this year.
44:23
First off, I just wanted to say is something that was occurring
44:26
to me is we've been having this whole podcast, which is all that
44:31
Heather does for the Sandras community.
44:33
So thank you. I'm going to say thank you on
44:35
behalf of all of us for doing what you do.
44:39
And, and I mean, you know, bouncing around the world sounds
44:43
glamorous, especially for folks who don't do it for a living.
44:47
You go to all these places that's a little bit hard on the
44:50
body, right? That's hard on the body.
44:52
And it's hard to have any kind of meaningful relationships with
44:56
people that were like family and stuff because you don't, you
45:00
can't just say, Hey, I'll be over for dinner every Sunday
45:02
night for, for family dinner or whatever, right?
45:05
So it's, you're putting in a lot of your life force energy into
45:09
this. So thank you.
45:11
I, I will point out my, my sweetheart is probably the most
45:14
introverted human I have ever met in my life.
45:16
And that's with all of the standards people I hang out with
45:19
when we're at home, when we live in a very small house, it's 100
45:21
square meter house, We still text each other.
45:25
We're sitting in the same room, we're looking at each other,
45:27
We're still texting each other, right.
45:28
And he does not travel with me because that would involve
45:30
dealing with humans and no, just just no So and.
45:35
It would be expensive. It would be annoying for him,
45:39
which is actually the bore important point.
45:42
He would. He would you.
45:43
Can't put a price on. I mean, that's just.
45:44
You can't put a price on the level of irritation he would
45:46
experience. So that part's not too bad.
45:51
The the physical exhaustion. You're absolutely right.
45:53
When when we when COVID happened, it was so relaxing it
46:00
but it took me 18 months to recover from from all the travel
46:03
that I do. Yeah, it takes a while.
46:06
It does take a while. So I was thinking about the
46:10
whole thing that Jeff asked you, like, are you like a hyper
46:15
planner for your vacation as well?
46:17
So I'm going to Oslo and then to Denmark before EIC, never been
46:23
to either one. And I've been watching so many
46:26
Youtubes that I feel like I'm going to get there.
46:29
There's going to be nothing to see because I've already seen it
46:32
all on YouTube at least three or four times.
46:35
Because I'm I'm trying to make sure that not only do I see all
46:41
the things that I want to see and do all the things that I
46:44
want to do, but that I have them mapped out so that I'm not just
46:48
traveling zigzag all over the city so that I'm hitting them in
46:52
the right order. So let me let me point something
46:56
out. You've probably experienced the
47:00
difference between talking to someone on the podcast and so
47:04
you have them in a nice little box and you can have a great
47:07
conversation and then seeing them in person and actually
47:11
getting a hug and the whole body experience of communication.
47:16
It's different that for me, that's why I travel because I
47:20
cannot have the relationship building that I need to throw a
47:22
little box on my screen. Going to Oslo, going to Denmark,
47:26
going anywhere, any kind of travel.
47:27
You can see everything in the little box on your screen in
47:32
YouTube and it is nothing compared to that visceral
47:35
reaction of actually being able to see the thing, as expensive
47:40
as it may be. Well put.
47:42
Yeah, I know exactly, exactly what I'm looking forward to.
47:47
And, you know, but I still am probably over planning this
47:51
thing to the point where it's like, I know how many miles each
47:56
thing is from my hotel. But part of it is like, I don't
47:59
want to be traveling the whole time.
48:01
I want to, you know, have the hotel and then four days to go
48:05
and do all these things and, you know, have the hot dog at the
48:09
street food vendor that I saw in a YouTube video or something
48:13
like that. And I think that would, I don't
48:16
know. I usually don't do that.
48:17
I'm usually much less planned out.
48:19
But I feel like we have limited time and to get all these things
48:25
in it's going to require a little bit of pre thought.
48:29
And I also don't want to have regret later that oh, we didn't
48:34
see all those great things because we didn't do enough
48:37
research. If I'm not aware of something in
48:41
Oslo or Copenhagen by now, after all the videos I've watched,
48:45
it's not from a lack of trying. It's as long as you leave, leave
48:53
in flexibility, right? But planning to the extent you
48:57
know to from from 8:00 AM to 8:00 PM is fine as long as
49:02
you're still comfortable with you know what, I'm tired today.
49:08
I don't I don't really feel like that 10 mile walk to get to this
49:11
thing. So there's going to be other
49:15
times probably I will. I won't do that.
49:17
As long as you you build in that level of comfort in yourself of
49:20
being able to say no, not today, you'll be fine.
49:24
Absolutely. What are you?
49:26
How are you approaching your trip, Jeff?
49:29
100% the opposite of you Jim. Right now I have a flight to
49:34
Berlin and then I have a flight out of Amsterdam 2 weeks later.
49:40
So that's about as far planning as my wife and I've gotten.
49:44
She's going to join me in Berlin towards the end of the week.
49:47
And then the plan right now is to go from Berlin to Amsterdam,
49:51
probably by train. We haven't figured that part
49:53
out. I still don't have a hotel for
49:55
Amsterdam. And then we're going to figure
49:57
out like a day trip somewhere using sort of Amsterdam and sort
50:00
of like the base from there and then fly home from there, you
50:03
know, a week, a week after EI CS over.
50:05
So I'm I'm I haven't figured it out yet.
50:10
So I honestly don't know how to answer the other than I know I
50:12
have a way into Germany and a way out of Amsterdam.
50:15
How I get between the two is still up to be, you know,
50:18
decided. But I'm kind of a little bit
50:20
more relaxed on vacation. I'm like, all right, let's just
50:22
go there and then let's just kind of hang out and see where
50:25
the wind takes us. And we did this for London last
50:28
year, where the whole point of the trip was to go see the Cubs
50:32
play the Cardinals baseball game.
50:34
Jim, I'm sure you'd appreciate that.
50:37
And we spent a week, I think there the game was on Saturday.
50:41
We came in early and we basically just picked a
50:43
direction. It was the first time either of
50:44
us had actually been in London proper.
50:46
And we picked a direction and just walked.
50:48
And when we got tired of walking, we'd stop into a pub or
50:51
something and get drinks or food or whatever maybe.
50:54
And then when we were kind of done for the day, we would take
50:56
an Uber from however far we got out back to the hotel.
51:00
And then we would just kind of, you know, play it easy at the
51:03
hotel and then do the same the next day.
51:05
So we just picked different directions.
51:06
I imagine this is probably going to be kind of similar.
51:08
I feel like it's the first trip out to these places.
51:11
So, you know, there's that desire.
51:13
I totally get you. And I was like, I want to see
51:15
everything. It's just not reasonable.
51:17
I've I've already kind of put it in my head as I go, like, we're
51:19
not going to see everything. Like let's just pick the things
51:21
that are most important and then we'll adapt on the fly as
51:23
needed. My wife's great to go at that
51:25
and she's, you know, on board, that kind of thing.
51:26
So, and if it's super cool, we can always try to go back,
51:31
right? Maybe it's EIC next year or two
51:33
years from now or something else, right?
51:34
Or maybe, you know, whatever happens, right, we end up
51:37
somewhere else for, for work or something like that, right.
51:40
So I'm a little more, I guess, the short version, Jim, I'm
51:43
opposite. I think there, I think it's
51:47
great that you're opposite. And by the way, it's not like
51:51
I'm doing this planning because I feel like I have to.
51:56
I'm doing this planning because I'm really enjoying it.
51:59
Like watching these videos gets me excited about going and oh,
52:03
here's all the things that I can do.
52:05
And coming up with that map that I did wasn't because like, Oh
52:09
no, I have to sit down and create this map.
52:12
That's because I wanted to see where all these different things
52:14
were in relation to each other. So it's that's the reason I'm
52:18
doing it. I like.
52:20
I do the map thing only if I'm going someplace that I'm not
52:23
familiar with. And I love things like Google
52:24
Street View. It's like, OK, let me get
52:26
familiar with the surroundings. OK, here's what to expect,
52:28
here's where this is going to be AT and so forth.
52:30
But I don't, I don't go into like the logistics and planning
52:33
of like the most optimal path of all the different things around
52:36
it. So that's, that's it.
52:40
All right. Why don't we wrap it up for this
52:42
week? Heather, it's a pleasure to see
52:44
you virtually. We will see you in real life in
52:47
the next couple of weeks over at EIC and then get an Identiverse.
52:51
Thank you again for working with us on the whole partnership
52:53
thing. Looking forward to see, you know
52:55
where this goes. We have lots of ID Pro members,
52:58
guests, all kinds of stuff and I'm sure ideas are cranking in
53:01
our heads of what are the things that we can be doing together
53:03
over there the next several weeks, months.
53:06
You know, however, on this, this goes.
53:08
So I'll have links in our show notes for people to check out
53:11
Heather. So your LinkedIn, the ID pro.org
53:14
website. So definitely want to check that
53:16
out. I'll have a link to the identity
53:18
salon, which sounds super cool and interesting.
53:19
I want to talk to you about that after the fact.
53:21
And then yeah, for us, we're on the web, IDC, podcast.com, we
53:26
have our YouTube channel, which we're still trying to grow.
53:28
So feel free to give us a like and subscribe there.
53:30
Definitely helps and definitely seen a lot of viewers come on
53:34
board in the last couple of months.
53:35
So I'm trying to do more, more shorts and things like that.
53:37
And maybe that's working, maybe it's not, I don't know.
53:39
But give us a like and subscribe anyway.
53:42
And with that, we'll go ahead and leave it for this week.
53:44
Thanks for watching and or listening and we'll talk with
53:47
you all in the next one. Bye bye.
53:51
You've been listening to Identity at the Center.
53:55
We hope you've enjoyed the show. Make sure to like, rate and
53:59
review, and we'll be back soon. But in the meantime, hit the
54:02
website at identity@thecenter.com.
54:06
See you next time on Identity at the Center.