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21 and Counting—The Secret Sauce to Series Writing · Reality Writes

0:05
SPEAKER_02: Oh, here we go.
0:07
SPEAKER_02: And just like that.
0:08
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to another episode of Reality Rights.
0:11
SPEAKER_02: I am author Ellie Alexander and I'm here with I am the Tech Guy.
0:16
SPEAKER_02: And we're doing something a little different today, yeah?
0:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
0:19
SPEAKER_01: Uh going live.
0:21
SPEAKER_01: Um first time in a long time, actually.
0:25
SPEAKER_01: Right?
0:26
SPEAKER_02: We're back at it.
0:27
SPEAKER_02: We are recording reality live today with some uh very special darlings, but we will also try to stay focused for all of you darlings who might be listening to this episode later.
0:40
SPEAKER_02: And um, we'll be taking live questions along the way.
0:43
SPEAKER_02: So I'm super excited.
0:44
SPEAKER_02: And it's so fun to see um all of you hanging out in the comments.
0:49
SPEAKER_02: Hi Kat, hi Kayla, Sue, Valerie.
0:52
SPEAKER_01: Valerie says it's uh it's really hot in Ohio right now.
0:56
SPEAKER_02: So is it really hot?
0:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's really hot here too, actually, Valerie, but uh it's supposed to be, I guess, um, this time of year in California.
1:04
SPEAKER_02: I don't think you can say that.
1:05
SPEAKER_02: It's not actually really hot here.
1:07
SPEAKER_02: It's like high 70s.
1:10
SPEAKER_01: It was hot yesterday.
1:11
SPEAKER_02: It was hot yesterday.
1:12
SPEAKER_02: It was humid.
1:13
SPEAKER_01: Supposed to be mid-70s yesterday, and it was high 80s with with really high humidity, which is just that's it's not it's not right.
1:23
SPEAKER_02: No, no, we're not fans of that.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:25
SPEAKER_02: What we I Tish, what we are fans of though, are talking about books, writing, anything bookish, and um, we've got, I think, a really good topic to get into today.
1:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so what are we diving into today?
1:40
SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, I get asked so often about writing multiple series and how I keep plots and characters and worlds straight.
1:50
SPEAKER_02: So I thought today we could really focus on everything that goes into writing a uh long-running series.
1:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's good.
1:58
SPEAKER_01: Uh speaking of series, um, just a quick note, quick heads up.
2:03
SPEAKER_01: Uh Ellie's next book, Laying Down the Lante, book number 21 in the Big Shop Mystery Series.
2:11
SPEAKER_01: Look what came in the mail! Woohoo! Uh that comes out comes out August 26th.
2:17
SPEAKER_01: Um shortly after that, you have uh A Body on the Beach on September 1st, A Body at Boot Camp on September 15th, and Revenge on the Rocks at September 22nd.
2:29
SPEAKER_01: Those three books are books three, four, and five in the Meg Reed Investigate series, formerly Pacific Northwest Mysteries.
2:35
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and all of those books are available for pre-order right now.
2:39
SPEAKER_01: But but that's not it for the year, right?
2:43
SPEAKER_01: There's more.
2:44
SPEAKER_02: It's not.
2:44
SPEAKER_02: There is more.
2:45
SPEAKER_02: There is more.
2:47
SPEAKER_02: Um, I think we will get into the more at the end of the episode, perhaps.
2:51
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
2:52
SPEAKER_02: But to kick off our discussion on series writing, I would love to ask everyone in the chat, darlings, if you have a favorite long-running series that you go back to again and again.
3:06
SPEAKER_02: And also why?
3:08
SPEAKER_02: Like what what is it about that particular series that makes you come back?
3:12
SPEAKER_01: And just just for clarification, like it you don't have to say the big shop mysteries or the Slum Cross mysteries are please don't say.
3:24
SPEAKER_02: This is not a good thing.
3:24
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it'd be great.
3:26
SPEAKER_01: It'd be great if you did, but you know, that's just it can be any series.
3:29
SPEAKER_01: Any series is yeah.
3:31
SPEAKER_02: Any series, pick a series and let's get into it.
3:36
SPEAKER_01: That's funny.
3:37
SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, all right.
3:39
SPEAKER_01: Well, while they're writing that, or while the while they're uh thinking about that and and thinking of which non-LE series to put in the chat, um uh what is the first thing that you do when it comes to trying to keep track of all the details that go into writing a series, and not only one series, but multiple series at the same time?
4:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think it's such an important question.
4:04
SPEAKER_02: And especially in this genre, for any of you darlings out there, this is a genre more than anything else, uh, really does well in series format.
4:14
SPEAKER_02: So if you're going the traditional route, for example, publishers buy these in a minimum usually of three books to start because they want to give readers an opportunity to come along with you and build that world, world, and story.
4:25
SPEAKER_02: So I think the most important starting point is creating a series style guide.
4:32
SPEAKER_02: And if you are going the traditional route, the lovely thing is that part of the publishing process is that these style guides get updated with every new release.
4:44
SPEAKER_02: So, for example, for the Bake Shop Mysteries, I am actually working on book 23 right now because I'm always a few books ahead, even though 21, like you said, comes out in a few weeks.
4:54
SPEAKER_02: So I just got the style guide from my editor, and style guides include everything from characters.
5:00
SPEAKER_02: In fact, I have one out on my desk right now because I was just working on the new novel detective series.
5:07
SPEAKER_02: So I have my style guide from Storm, my publisher for that.
5:11
SPEAKER_02: This series is gonna be the spin-off of the secret bookcase.
5:15
SPEAKER_02: And so it starts with the recurring cast of characters, and it is things like Fletcher, for example.
5:22
SPEAKER_02: His pronouns, how old he is, where he works, he's tall, he's wiry, he wears tweeds, he's obsessed with Sherlock.
5:30
SPEAKER_02: This is a big one.
5:31
SPEAKER_02: Pale blue eyes.
5:33
SPEAKER_02: He'll turn 36 in the calendar year that started in book one.
5:37
SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, you want to get as specific as you can because trust me, once you're writing and you're in the flow, I a thousand times I'll tell you that Fletcher actually has dark eyes, and then I'll go back to the style guide and be like, oh no, no, he doesn't, not at all.
5:52
SPEAKER_01: Well, right.
5:52
SPEAKER_01: And I mean, when when you get in, you know, it doesn't even be have to be a long-running series, but when you do, if if you're an author that you know is lucky enough to be able to write a long-running series, the like the little details matter.
6:06
SPEAKER_01: And trust me, readers remember.
6:10
SPEAKER_01: Uh so it is it is wild.
6:13
SPEAKER_01: I remember years ago, there was an author, big name Cozy Mystery author, who actually posted on social media about one of her characters uh asking readers if they remembered if she had ever said when the character's birthday was, because she couldn't remember.
6:30
SPEAKER_01: And and it was it was a wild conversation that happened after that.
6:34
SPEAKER_01: Um uh so yeah, the little details do matter.
6:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, some people are weighing in on their favorite series.
6:42
SPEAKER_01: Uh Kayla says Diane Mott Davidson, of course.
6:46
SPEAKER_01: Make these a little bit.
6:47
SPEAKER_02: Of course, Kayla.
6:48
SPEAKER_02: I just did a library keynote for the Pacific Northwest Library Association last weekend.
6:53
SPEAKER_02: And um, I was talking about how a librarian introduced me to Diane in my late college years, and that was the first time I had read a culinary cozy, and boy, was I hooked.
7:05
SPEAKER_02: I had no idea what I was in for after that.
7:07
SPEAKER_02: And Foldie Schultz Forever.
7:09
SPEAKER_02: That is my go-to series.
7:12
SPEAKER_01: Um Deborah Hugness's All Souls Miss series.
7:16
SPEAKER_01: I'm not familiar with it, but I'm sure you are.
7:18
SPEAKER_02: Yes, it's great.
7:20
SPEAKER_02: Dark and twisty.
7:21
SPEAKER_01: Tish says, Agatha Ray, I I know Agatha Raisin.
7:25
SPEAKER_01: Um, Agatha Raisin, of course, by MC Beaton.
7:27
SPEAKER_01: It's a good series.
7:30
SPEAKER_02: Fun fact about Agatha Raisin, too, Tish, is that um unfortunately MC Beaton died a few years ago, but the estate gave her rights over to another author to keep publishing that series, which is so fun.
7:41
SPEAKER_02: And he had worked with her and had known her prior to her death, so had spent a lot of time making sure that he was getting, again, all of the details right on that one.
7:51
SPEAKER_02: But that would be terrifying, speaking of series writing, to come in to a long-running series, because I'm not specifically sure when she died, but she was already like 30 plus books in.
8:04
SPEAKER_02: And then he came in and had to take over a series like that.
8:07
SPEAKER_02: So this is why you really need a giant style guide.
8:12
SPEAKER_02: Um, going back to the style guide, too.
8:13
SPEAKER_02: The other thing, other things that you want to include in that, and that I always do in terms of so not only do you have your regular cast of characters, your recurring characters, but then for each book, it's the suspects.
8:25
SPEAKER_02: Um, because you never know.
8:26
SPEAKER_02: I mean, first of all, it's things like names.
8:28
SPEAKER_02: After I've written, well, collectively over 45 books at this point in time.
8:34
SPEAKER_02: Have I used a character's name?
8:35
SPEAKER_02: Was that the exact same name?
8:38
SPEAKER_02: Murder methods.
8:39
SPEAKER_02: Um I've been deep into reading some Agatha Christie bios, and out of the 60 plus books that she wrote, she uses poison as a weapon like 40 times.
8:49
SPEAKER_02: Like that was her go-to thing.
8:50
SPEAKER_02: But I try to make sure that like the actual murder weapon stays fresh.
8:54
SPEAKER_02: And then also all of the world building stuff.
8:57
SPEAKER_02: So, like in the secret bookcase for this particular guide, it is things like what are all of the rooms that are in the secret bookcase?
9:05
SPEAKER_02: So we have the dig room, we have the library, we have the study.
9:09
SPEAKER_02: Um, what are the names of the town?
9:11
SPEAKER_02: What are what are the streets?
9:12
SPEAKER_02: What's the village square?
9:13
SPEAKER_02: What are the restaurants called?
9:15
SPEAKER_02: This is true.
9:15
SPEAKER_02: In Bake Shop too, is is Pucks Pub?
9:18
SPEAKER_02: Is it with an apostrophe?
9:19
SPEAKER_02: Is it not with an apostrophe?
9:22
SPEAKER_02: Again, those are the sort of things that we get reader mail from from the darlings, because it's like, no, Pucks is not supposed to have an apostrophe.
9:30
SPEAKER_02: Or in Redwood Grove, for example, if Annie is walking down Cedar Avenue, it's always Cedar Avenue, not Cedar Ave, that kind of thing.
9:40
SPEAKER_02: Um, a brief synopsis of the timeline.
9:43
SPEAKER_02: So this is always a big chunk as you get farther and farther into the series, but like for this one, it's like book one.
9:48
SPEAKER_02: It begins in January.
9:50
SPEAKER_02: And here, like, here's what's happening at the store, here's a brief overview of the murder plot, and here are all the threads for the subplot.
9:57
SPEAKER_02: So for every single series that I write, I have a series style guide, and then they get updated with each book.
10:06
SPEAKER_02: Um, the other thing that I think is important to note, and this just came up with one of my coaching clients this week, is I don't write anything that's paranormal.
10:16
SPEAKER_02: But if you're writing something, let's say that's magical in any way, shape, or form, you need to know the rules of that magic.
10:25
SPEAKER_02: And before you even start writing, you need to get those rules down on paper and or you know, pen and excel, right?
10:32
SPEAKER_02: Shade.
10:33
SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm I'm thinking not necessarily literally, but you make up the rules of the magic.
10:39
SPEAKER_02: So it doesn't matter if like cats always have the power to fly.
10:43
SPEAKER_02: You can do whatever you want with that.
10:45
SPEAKER_02: But then in the next book in the series, cats suddenly, like, if they can't fly, readers are gonna hear about that.
10:53
SPEAKER_02: So you need to establish the rules, and this is what I was working with my client on because this particular client is writing a book about witches, and so they were asking, Well, like, how do I do the magic?
11:04
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't matter, it's wide open, but you have to know the rules, and then you have to follow them for each book.
11:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's a lot to keep track of.
11:13
SPEAKER_01: Uh probably impossible to do without having it written down somewhere.
11:18
SPEAKER_02: Probably impossible to do without having it written down somewhere.
11:21
SPEAKER_02: Um, and then the last caveat that I would say is um if you are if you're a darling out there and you're thinking about starting uh the process of writing and you're early in on it, uh the and you're not gonna go the traditional route, which is great, and you're gonna go indie, this is something you should do for yourself.
11:37
SPEAKER_02: Like it's a gift that the publishing house does this for me, and I have another set of eyes on it because I have my own versions, but then um the editorial staff at the publishing house catches way more things than I do.
11:50
SPEAKER_02: Um, but if you're going indie, this is something you should create for yourself to begin with.
11:54
SPEAKER_02: And it doesn't have to be anything formal, like you know, these are just bulleted out.
11:58
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so then um additionally, it might be like how you're using punctuation.
12:03
SPEAKER_02: Are you always gonna be using the Oxford comma?
12:06
SPEAKER_02: Are you going to like use M-dashes at all?
12:09
SPEAKER_02: How are you gonna deal with street names?
12:12
SPEAKER_02: Anything like that.
12:12
SPEAKER_02: Like you want it all spelled out in much more detail than you can possibly believe from the start.
12:19
SPEAKER_02: From the start.
12:20
SPEAKER_01: Well, and there's more there are multiple ways to do that too, right?
12:24
SPEAKER_01: Like you said, writing it down on papers, one, obviously, that would get very tedious and also time consuming, right?
12:31
SPEAKER_01: Because if you ever have to look anything up, you're just gonna be like thumbing through page after page after page of notes.
12:36
SPEAKER_01: Oh, hit my mic.
12:38
SPEAKER_01: Um But there are, you know, Excel spreadsheets, there are applications like Notion.
12:45
SPEAKER_01: Notion is a great one.
12:46
SPEAKER_01: And in fact, I'm working on a um a side project at one of these days.
12:50
SPEAKER_01: I'll complete it, but it's specifically for this purpose of creating Notion, like interactive Notion databases where you have different areas to keep track of details like that, like character traits and plot uh points and uh suspects and you know any grammatical things that you know, like the avenue versus av thing that you were talking about.
13:11
SPEAKER_01: Um so and I know there are some writing tools that have some of this stuff built in too.
13:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm not really a fan of all your eggs in one basket, so I like to use a lot of different tools, but uh but ones that can talk to each other.
13:24
SPEAKER_01: Um uh so you can do it, you can do it old school, you can do it high-tech.
13:29
SPEAKER_01: Um, everybody knows which one I prefer, but uh, but you gotta pick what works for you.
13:34
SPEAKER_01: And um, I guess the point is just do it, right?
13:37
SPEAKER_01: But here's a question.
13:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, from you you know me pretty well uh by now, uh, you Ellie.
13:44
SPEAKER_01: Um uh how detailed do you get?
13:48
SPEAKER_01: Because you know me.
13:49
SPEAKER_01: If I like you tell me to do something like this, I'm gonna spend 99% of my time tracking the details and one percent of my time trying to write the book, right?
13:57
SPEAKER_01: Because I'm gonna be like, oh my gosh, I gotta remember that you know Fletcher wore a black belt at one point in time, you know, and and that was his favorite belt when when in reality variable things like that probably don't matter as much.
14:09
SPEAKER_01: But eye color, right?
14:11
SPEAKER_01: That's another shape.
14:12
SPEAKER_02: Right, yeah, exactly.
14:13
SPEAKER_02: No, I think that's such a good point.
14:14
SPEAKER_02: Um, and it would, it's easy to go get really lost in the weeds on a project like this.
14:19
SPEAKER_02: So I my advice to the new writers who I'm coaching is always like start out as you're building your world, just take those copious notes and and build this out in in whatever form you like.
14:29
SPEAKER_02: I do from a tech perspective.
14:30
SPEAKER_02: I do love something that would be searchable because I usually go back to like the last style guide every time, the the most previous book.
14:38
SPEAKER_02: But um you you want to build that out and then you want to give yourself permission to keep writing.
14:45
SPEAKER_02: But this is where later in the process of series writing, when like a copy editor and a page proofer and beta readers come in, but um, I think about things like especially in the bake shop because it's been running for so long.
14:57
SPEAKER_02: At one point, Lance grows a goatee, but like when does he shave it off?
15:02
SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, you you really can go into the minutiae and you should because readers are gonna catch that.
15:07
SPEAKER_02: They're gonna be like, wait a minute, he doesn't have a goatee anymore.
15:11
SPEAKER_02: Why does he have a goatee now?
15:12
SPEAKER_02: Or he shaved that off years ago, like whatever.
15:14
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, that's definitely um I would say it's important to err on the side of detail, but maybe like then you revisit it after you've gone through all the editorial part to wrap up that book and look at it again before you start book two in the series.
15:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that makes sense.
15:33
SPEAKER_01: Totally.
15:34
SPEAKER_01: Cool.
15:35
SPEAKER_01: Um well, okay, so that's keeping track of details, but um like when you're writing a long-running series or multiple series um at the same time, um, like what are your strategies for keeping things fresh?
15:51
SPEAKER_01: Uh keep it two two things, I guess.
15:54
SPEAKER_01: Strategies for keeping things fresh, and then also strategies for not duplicating things within a series or across multiple series.
16:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think about this so much because uh with the bake shop mysteries, as I mentioned, I'm working on book 23 right now.
16:11
SPEAKER_02: And the beginning of every book, usually, pretty much without exception, starts with Jules on her way to the bake shop, at the bake shop, centered in Ashland, even like for laying down the latte, the new book that comes out, they're gonna take an adventure to Costa Rica.
16:28
SPEAKER_02: But the book always opens and closes again in Ashland to really like bring it full circle because Ashland is another character in this series.
16:37
SPEAKER_02: And 23 books in, how many times have I talked about the beautiful sepia tones that are like facing the top of Grizzly Peak and the Elizabethan architecture and the Shakespeare banners flapping in the wind?
16:54
SPEAKER_02: Like to me, it starts to feel really stale.
16:58
SPEAKER_02: And every time I sit down to write that opening scene, I have like a little mini panic attack, and I'm like, oh gosh, I don't think I can do this again.
17:07
SPEAKER_02: Like, I have said this a thousand different ways.
17:10
SPEAKER_02: But then I just sort of get into the flow.
17:13
SPEAKER_02: And the funny thing is, I just got notes back on book 22 from my editor, and her first comment was like, Oh my gosh, this was like the gift that I needed for my soul to read that first chapter and be back in Ashland with Jules again.
17:31
SPEAKER_02: And I was thinking, gosh, I was worried the whole time.
17:34
SPEAKER_02: Like, did I use gold too much?
17:36
SPEAKER_02: Was there sunlight?
17:37
SPEAKER_02: You know, so there's there is that balance that like the thing that darlings are resonating with, the reason that we keep coming back to series that we love is because we're back in that world, we're back with those characters.
17:47
SPEAKER_02: And so, yeah, your point of like trying to strike the right balance between, okay, yeah, we're gonna be in Ashland, but how do I also try to keep it fresh?
17:56
SPEAKER_02: So my focus on the freshness tends to go more with the actual murder, um, trying to find new creative ways to kill people, try to find new ways to make sure like I'm shifting suspicion on different suspects.
18:13
SPEAKER_02: Um, and then maybe with like subplots and arcs for secondary characters.
18:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
18:19
SPEAKER_01: No, that makes sense.
18:21
SPEAKER_01: I I we've had several discussions specifically about uh murder methods um over the years where you know we'll we'll uh go out for beers or something for planning, planning session.
18:34
SPEAKER_01: Um and um, you know, you'll be like, I need something new and fresh.
18:38
SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking of this, and I'm like, oh, what about this?
18:40
SPEAKER_01: And you're like, nope, caught red-handed.
18:42
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, what?
18:42
SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
18:43
SPEAKER_01: Uh what about this?
18:44
SPEAKER_01: Nope.
18:45
SPEAKER_01: Live in that pie.
18:46
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
18:47
SPEAKER_01: Just you know, it's you know, you get it, you get deep enough into a series, and it you especially because you're bound by the cozy the laws of the cozy mystery genre, right?
18:59
SPEAKER_01: Like, like there are a lot of ways to kill people, but like melting somebody in acid is not necessarily something that is gonna play well on the cozy pages.
19:10
SPEAKER_01: I I don't know.
19:11
SPEAKER_01: Maybe, maybe not.
19:12
SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, tell us, darling, what do you think?
19:14
SPEAKER_02: Do you want somebody melted in acid?
19:15
SPEAKER_02: I haven't done that yet, so I mean that's something to consider perhaps.
19:19
SPEAKER_02: Um the other the other thing that comes up too, especially with the bake shop series, is all of the food writing.
19:26
SPEAKER_02: Um, because again, in 23 books, uh we are we're baking a lot.
19:31
SPEAKER_02: There's the jewels and the entire team is in the kitchen pretty much 24-7.
19:36
SPEAKER_02: And I just my note for the top of book 22 is like, how many times over the course of the series have I used a cardamom?
19:48
SPEAKER_02: It's gotta be like a zillion.
19:49
SPEAKER_02: I don't even know.
19:50
SPEAKER_02: So um trying to make sure the recipes stay fresh, trying to figure out a new way to describe the way that she's kneading the dough and the smells in the kitchen and all of those sensory details that we want when we're reading like a delicious Diane Mott Davidson style cozy.
20:08
SPEAKER_02: Um so I would say from a writing perspective, that gets more challenging.
20:12
SPEAKER_02: More so I think because I just get in my head about it.
20:16
SPEAKER_02: And it's interesting because if I was giving this advice to one of my coaching students, I would be just like, go with it.
20:21
SPEAKER_02: Like it doesn't matter.
20:22
SPEAKER_02: But um, I do think I'm I'm hyper aware because I've written so many baking scenes over the years.
20:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally.
20:30
SPEAKER_01: Actually, while you were talking, something occurred to me that would be very interesting.
20:34
SPEAKER_01: There's no way to do this, obviously, and you wouldn't want to keep track of details to this level, but it would be wild to 21 books in now, even though you've written 23 but are working on the 23rd.
20:46
SPEAKER_01: But anyway, like 21 books in, how many pounds of flour has tort gone through?
20:52
SPEAKER_01: Oh, we should totally how many pounds of sugar has tort used?
20:57
SPEAKER_01: Like, how many pounds of coffee beans has Andy ground up making drinks at tort um over the course of the series?
21:06
SPEAKER_02: That would be why is that not in my style guy?
21:09
SPEAKER_02: It's gotta be how it's gotta be like a year's worth of butter for sure.
21:13
SPEAKER_01: That would, oh yeah.
21:14
SPEAKER_01: I mean, like how many dump truck loads of butter?
21:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just like totally that would be amazing.
21:22
SPEAKER_02: I think then the gift of that, the the pro, of course, of long-running series, and even with a secret bookcase now that I'm I'm six books in, and I'm I'm already in book three of the spin-off that I'm writing.
21:34
SPEAKER_02: So now I'm nine books into this series.
21:37
SPEAKER_02: That um you get to really develop these characters at an emotional level that you don't get to early on.
21:44
SPEAKER_02: So that's always really exciting uh to think about personal growth and new challenges that I can throw at characters, as well as like building the world out even a little more.
21:56
SPEAKER_02: Like another coaching client who I was just working with earlier this week is.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: Starting a series and and had like 40 characters that they were gonna introduce in the first book.
22:06
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, that's that's a lot for readers to track, myself included.
22:12
SPEAKER_02: Like between suspects and your secondary cast, I think for a first book, maybe we pair that in half.
22:17
SPEAKER_02: And then as time goes, you get to start peppering in more secondary characters.
22:23
SPEAKER_02: And we've seen that with the Bake Shop Mysteries for sure.
22:26
SPEAKER_02: Like there's a whole new crew of staff that have come on at different iterations of the series, you know, some that came on at book eight or nine or ten, and then another set recently.
22:38
SPEAKER_02: Um, and some characters can perhaps leave and move on to explore new things, and then you hear a lot of messaging from the darlings about that.
22:48
SPEAKER_01: I just want to say for the record, all the darlings are loving my questions about how much uh flour and sugar and things tort used has used over the course of the series.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: So I come up with good ideas every once in a while.
23:01
SPEAKER_02: Like I think that's a great project for you to tackle.
23:04
SPEAKER_02: Just start going through all 21 books so far and adding it up.
23:08
SPEAKER_02: But that would actually we could take all the recipes in the back of the book.
23:12
SPEAKER_02: That wouldn't that wouldn't be quite enough, but it would be a low estimate because they're scale them up, yeah.
23:21
SPEAKER_01: You'd you'd scale them up for a retail business.
23:23
SPEAKER_01: Or and but then but then Tort has catered a lot of events over the years too.
23:28
SPEAKER_01: So and and what they're making in the books does not always make it into a recipe in the back.
23:36
SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of other stuff.
23:39
SPEAKER_01: Um, a lot of this would have to be made up, but um it's kind of what I do for a living is make up numbers.
23:45
SPEAKER_01: So, you know.
23:47
unknown: Do it.
23:48
SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, so you're keeping track of all this stuff, you got your style guide, you're keeping it fresh.
23:55
SPEAKER_01: What happens when things go sideways?
23:58
SPEAKER_01: Like what what what happens when there's a plot hole, when you know you've forgotten about a fax?
24:05
SPEAKER_01: Like I because I know this has happened, so maybe talk about a couple of examples of that for the listeners out there.
24:13
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
24:13
SPEAKER_02: Uh it's it's probably inevitable that it will happen at some level.
24:17
SPEAKER_02: It's never fun.
24:19
SPEAKER_02: Um, usually, knock on every piece of wood, it those things get caught in copy edit.
24:25
SPEAKER_02: So a lot of my copy edit process, even though I have reviewed my style guides, is still like, nope, Fletcher has light blue eyes.
24:32
SPEAKER_02: Let's get back to that.
24:33
SPEAKER_02: Or nope, you're gonna Cedar Avenue is Cedar Avenue.
24:37
SPEAKER_02: Don't abbreviate it.
24:38
SPEAKER_02: So a lot of it is that, but then um, there are things that slip through the cracks, and then there are things that are um like things that I have, I suppose missed, but in my mind they hadn't been a big deal.
24:56
SPEAKER_02: Like I've I've used the example before of Meg in the very first book, which is now A Murder on the Mountain.
25:03
SPEAKER_01: Oh, this is gonna be the car.
25:05
SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah.
25:06
SPEAKER_02: She leaves her car at the trailhead because she's injured and somebody else drives her home.
25:10
SPEAKER_02: And so there's this, I got a ton of reader email about that being a continuity issue because how does her car get back?
25:15
SPEAKER_02: In my mind, I'm like, well, there were like 20 other people hiking, somebody just took it back.
25:19
SPEAKER_02: But those are the sort of things that um readers will pick up on for sure.
25:24
SPEAKER_02: Um, and it's fair, like, darlings, it's okay.
25:26
SPEAKER_02: Like, I I appreciate that you're paying um that close attention.
25:30
SPEAKER_02: There have been um tiny little issues with uh spellings that have come up.
25:37
SPEAKER_02: There have been things like um, I'm trying to remember there was one with Ashland that now I'm blanking on what it was.
25:47
SPEAKER_02: It was something with a chef, and I think they were working at Ashland Springs, but I said Ashland Hills or something like that.
25:59
SPEAKER_02: Like midway through a book.
26:00
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, both of which are real locations, um and uh until recently owned by the same company, so like yeah, and uh yeah, we've stayed at both, we've eaten at both, we've had events at both, so easy to easy to mix up for us.
26:17
SPEAKER_01: But for readers who are seeing it for the first or second time, yeah, it probably probably does.
26:22
SPEAKER_01: But that's the thing though, right?
26:24
SPEAKER_01: Is you put all this work into it, and no matter how hard you try, there might be something that happens occasionally, and but readers are there are always eagle-eyed readers that are gonna find it, right?
26:37
SPEAKER_01: So it is it is because without doing the work that you do to keep track of things, like imagine how many issues there would be.
26:45
SPEAKER_02: Um well, and I think one other thing that um you know, readers who are new to the series now um might notice more little like timeline glitches um because they're reading them back to back to back to back to back.
27:01
SPEAKER_02: So you know when they were first released, it's like, oh, there's six months between each release, and so there's sort of this passage of time.
27:09
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so I will hear from readers sometimes where it's like, wow, this is all happening real fast.
27:13
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, well, yes and no.
27:16
SPEAKER_02: And I also, as a general rule, try to keep ages kind of loose, like Jules is in her mid-30s now, but the series has been going since 2014.
27:27
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, you know, Bart's still in the Bart Simpson uh is still like in the what fourth grade, fifth or sixth grade, and he's been in elementary school for 38 years.
27:39
SPEAKER_01: So um, you know.
27:41
SPEAKER_01: No, the the um the reading them back to back to back is a good point though, because that happens a lot um both with reading and with um like TV too, uh where prior to streaming, let's take Lost, for example, because Lost was a show that um it when we watched it originally, it was on every week.
28:06
SPEAKER_01: And then there was a huge gap between the season, you know, finale and the the season premiere of the next season.
28:13
SPEAKER_01: And um and so things got lost.
28:18
SPEAKER_01: See what I did there?
28:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, things things got lost and you know, because they they only do like a 30-second, you know, previously on Lost.
28:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, and it you just you kind of lose it.
28:29
SPEAKER_01: But um when when we went back and watched that streaming with with Sky Guy, we we watched you know several episodes a week for uh you know a couple of months to go through the series, and it was like, whoa, this is a whole different experience.
28:45
SPEAKER_01: So it was it like I think having that the the shorter shorter gaps in the timing really does help.
28:53
SPEAKER_01: But for for the the listeners, the darlings out there, um, have you ever noticed a continuity gap or anything like that in a book or series that you're reading?
29:04
SPEAKER_01: Um I'd love to I'd love to see in the I I have um I point them out to you anytime, anytime I come across them, but um it doesn't ruin it for me.
29:14
SPEAKER_01: It's just kind of you know, like, oh, uh but wait a minute.
29:18
SPEAKER_01: And then I always have to check myself too.
29:20
SPEAKER_01: Like, am I remembering this right?
29:22
SPEAKER_01: Or did it, you know, am I just uh mis misremembering that this is a gap?
29:27
SPEAKER_01: But I'd love to hear what other people's experiences are with that.
29:31
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I would love to hear what that uh that too.
29:33
SPEAKER_02: And um on that note, you know, I've talked a lot about like how sometimes um I get a little frustrated by some of the messages that a few, a handful of darlings will send me.
29:43
SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, my we talked about this a couple episodes again like my book came mangled in the mail.
29:49
SPEAKER_02: Like, I can't do anything about that.
29:50
SPEAKER_02: You gotta send it back to the place where you purchased it.
29:52
SPEAKER_02: But if someone finds a continuity error, please, like, I want to know because then I will pass that on to the publisher and they can update it.
29:59
SPEAKER_02: They can update it in the ebook immediately.
30:01
SPEAKER_02: And then depending on print runs, they might have to, you know, wait a little while for that.
30:06
SPEAKER_02: Um, that did happen with the secret bookcase.
30:08
SPEAKER_02: There's a typo with a name, um, and the murder victim, like, and somehow it didn't get caught um in a murder at the movies.
30:17
SPEAKER_02: And so they were able to quickly like change that immediately for all subsequent printings.
30:22
SPEAKER_02: But then, like just a week or so ago, I had a reader reach out and was like, Hey, I think there's this tiny error in it.
30:27
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, Yeah, we you're probably reading an older copy, but that has been updated.
30:31
SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
30:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, it that that reminds me name character names.
30:37
SPEAKER_01: Um, so for the darlings out there, like character names change before like but between writing and and publishing.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: Um sometimes they they come up, and this has happened more than once for you.
30:50
SPEAKER_01: Uh it where you know each book contains like the first couple of chapters of the next book in the series.
30:58
SPEAKER_01: And I remember um one of the characters I'm uh blanking on his yes, yes, Carlos Chasson, yeah, yeah.
31:06
SPEAKER_01: He was you had him originally named something else, and then his introduction happened in one of those, like you know, coming soon in the big chuck mysteries.
31:15
SPEAKER_01: And and then you had a reader mail in, she was not extremely nice about it, but um but but it was like that these are unedited chapters, like this isn't like those.
31:28
SPEAKER_02: Not only are they unedited chapters, but when you're reading those little teasers of what to come, those books aren't even written yet.
31:35
SPEAKER_02: Like usually the author has just started a new book, so yeah, things are gonna change.
31:39
SPEAKER_02: Um, so that's like always a little bit scary.
31:41
SPEAKER_02: It's a pro and con of getting a teaser for what's to come in the next book because that is not necessarily the final final based on um how editing goes.
31:49
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, you're right.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, Sue Sue has found continuity errors and they do bother her.
31:55
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I mean sometimes they they can take you out of the, you know, you're in the rhythm and they just take you out of that reading rhythm.
32:02
SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
32:04
SPEAKER_02: That's fair.
32:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:06
SPEAKER_02: What else do we uh want to know about Siries today?
32:09
SPEAKER_01: Um, well, do you ever like do you so you're keeping track of all this stuff?
32:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, readers and fans are messaging you about things.
32:20
SPEAKER_01: Do you ever change things up based on reader feedback?
32:26
SPEAKER_02: Oh um not exactly, although I will say it's been interesting over the course of writing multiple series that things that I am considering the future path for characters with some subplot twists.
32:50
SPEAKER_02: There have been a handful of readers who have, you know, at a book signing or an event or something said, hey, you know, uh with this thread, with this subplot, I think blah blah blah is going to happen.
33:04
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, how did they know?
33:06
SPEAKER_02: Um this came up a lot early on in the Bake Shop Mysteries when um Jules is trying to decide between um potentially returning to her high school boyfriend and sticking it out with her husband.
33:21
SPEAKER_02: Um, so I did get a lot of input early on about uh thoughts there.
33:25
SPEAKER_01: I those were the uh Team Thomas, Team Carlos days.
33:30
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
33:30
SPEAKER_02: Remember we had a crime of passion food and like a whole crew of readers came to that book launch with Team Thomas and Team Carlos?
33:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
33:41
SPEAKER_02: Um that happened to hit like right about that book was released like in the same time zone-ish as Twilight.
33:49
SPEAKER_02: Like Twilight had just come out a few years earlier, so that was kind of like the vibe, you know.
33:54
SPEAKER_02: Team Edward, Team Jacob, is that right?
33:57
SPEAKER_02: Um, so that's the one.
33:58
SPEAKER_01: Well, choosing between a vampire and a werewolf.
34:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
34:01
SPEAKER_02: I know, right?
34:02
SPEAKER_02: Um between a chef or a police officer, a detective in training.
34:08
SPEAKER_02: Um I will say that my original editor for the Bake Shop series had a lot of thoughts on love life.
34:18
SPEAKER_02: And you know, um, I wouldn't say it was forceful, but had some suggestions about perhaps you know, they would like a few more scenes with one of those gentlemen.
34:29
SPEAKER_01: I think she might have been okay if the bake shop series had become a romance series.
34:34
SPEAKER_01: I think so too.
34:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
34:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
34:41
SPEAKER_02: Kat is in the comments saying I have stupidly strong feelings about that.
34:45
SPEAKER_02: I love it.
34:47
SPEAKER_01: Um well, I I know the answer to this next part is similar uh along the same vein as that, but um, but do you like how do you approach your plans versus inspiration?
35:04
SPEAKER_01: So if you've got like so reader feedback is one thing, but then like life experience and everything is something else.
35:11
SPEAKER_01: So like you've you've you map out your book before you write it.
35:15
SPEAKER_01: You know, you've got you've got the outline and you're going along and we go somewhere and you see something, like, how much does that affect your uh Oh, it definitely, yeah, it does.
35:24
SPEAKER_02: And in fact, I was just having this conversation with a coaching client too, because um they're working on plotting out a secondary mystery, uh, so a thread that's gonna stretch through at least four or five books, right?
35:37
SPEAKER_02: Um, and they were they have multiple directions they can take with it.
35:40
SPEAKER_02: And they were like, Do I need to know now?
35:43
SPEAKER_02: And my answer is absolutely not.
35:45
SPEAKER_02: Like it's good, it's good to have an idea in mind um because that's the only way you're gonna be able to work in some red herrings and like have some cliffhangers and and that piece work out for especially for the mystery genre.
35:57
SPEAKER_02: Um, but I think it's fantastic to have a vision of where you want your characters to go and some sort of a growth arc that they're following.
36:06
SPEAKER_02: But then, like you're saying, in real life, they're always like you follow a different path or something catches your eye or sparks your interest, and and you're down meandering off in another direction.
36:16
SPEAKER_02: So I think it's important to have a direction and then be open to taking little tiny detours and road trips as as they evolve for sure.
36:27
SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
36:28
SPEAKER_01: Uh all right, well, um, that is a lot about series writing.
36:34
SPEAKER_02: Um that is a lot about series writing.
36:36
SPEAKER_02: I know.
36:36
SPEAKER_02: We I we could have a whole other discussion about it.
36:38
SPEAKER_02: And I see in the comments that Tish has a question that I think is a great way to sort of um wrap up this episode.
36:45
SPEAKER_02: And that is this one um Yes.
36:48
SPEAKER_02: When you're writing a series, do you usually know from the start how many books it will be, or does that decision unfold midway through the writing process?
36:55
SPEAKER_02: Great question, Tish.
36:56
SPEAKER_01: That is a great question.
36:58
SPEAKER_02: You know, if you're writing for a traditional publishing house, the um the like sad answer is it bait it will be based on them, you know.
37:09
SPEAKER_02: So does the publisher feel like the books are selling well?
37:12
SPEAKER_02: Does it find an audience?
37:14
SPEAKER_02: Do they want to give you, you know, a couple more books?
37:17
SPEAKER_02: Let's say they sign you for three books and the series is doing relatively well.
37:21
SPEAKER_02: Will they give you another two or three more and continue to see how it does?
37:25
SPEAKER_02: This is where cancellations happen, unfortunately, all the time, because they're it's just if if a series doesn't hit pretty quickly, publishers aren't always willing to invest in more books in that series.
37:39
SPEAKER_02: And let me tell you, that is a terrible place to be, and I've been there.
37:44
SPEAKER_02: That happened with uh the Sloan Krauss mysteries, uh, which was so disappointing because with that subplot, I had a much longer arc in my mind in terms of Sloan and um her kind of search for the truth about her past.
37:59
SPEAKER_02: And so when I learned that after five books it was gonna be canceled, it was like, oh my gosh.
38:05
SPEAKER_02: First of all, I have to do everything I can to wrap up as much as I can in this one book that was already pretty much written, too.
38:12
SPEAKER_02: So I had to go back and be like, all right, and then this is happening.
38:15
SPEAKER_02: So poor readers probably have whiplash at the end of that book, like, whoa.
38:20
SPEAKER_02: Um, it always makes me think of alias and when they take SD6 down in like one episode, you know.
38:27
SPEAKER_01: Like, not even one episode.
38:28
SPEAKER_01: That took like five minutes in one episode, and it was like, what?
38:30
SPEAKER_01: This was a huge arc, and you just the writers were like, Yeah, we don't have anything more, let's just end it.
38:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
38:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:37
SPEAKER_01: Not that I have strong feelings about that at all, but um, no, definitely not, no.
38:42
SPEAKER_02: Um, we were both like, this can't be um so sometimes it's out of your control, which is unfortunate.
38:49
SPEAKER_02: If you are writing um independent and you're publishing independently, you definitely have more control over that.
38:55
SPEAKER_02: But I always I think it's a good idea, especially in looping back to the beginning part of our discussion with how do you make sure a long-running series stays fresh, too, is that if you're going to have some kind of secondary story, or if your character is going through some kind of growth, that you wrap that up maybe after five or six, seven books, and then you set them down a new path.
39:21
SPEAKER_02: Um, because I do think there's that point in getting stale.
39:25
SPEAKER_02: And then in terms of ending it, it's really about like trusting your own energy.
39:30
SPEAKER_02: Are you still like when you think about writing that next book in the series, are you excited or does it feel like a slog?
39:36
SPEAKER_02: Um, that's always my touch point when I come back and I think like, ooh, I'm back in Ashland.
39:41
SPEAKER_02: Like, oh, this is so fun, or here I am in Redwood Grove.
39:43
SPEAKER_02: I'm in Leavenworth now.
39:44
SPEAKER_02: Um if I start to feel like, uh no, I have to, I have to write another book, that's the point for me where I feel like it's time to end it.
39:52
SPEAKER_02: Because that energy is gonna come through on the page.
39:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally.
39:57
SPEAKER_01: All right.
39:59
SPEAKER_01: Well, that is all we have for this episode of Reality Rights.
40:05
SPEAKER_01: So um we you wait, you did want to mention something.
40:09
SPEAKER_01: So I've mentioned that let me see if I can remember them all off the top of my head.
40:13
SPEAKER_01: Uh Lane Don Latte, uh Body at the Beach, Body at Boot Camp, and Revenge on the Rocks are all all coming out between August 26th and September 22nd.
40:28
SPEAKER_01: Right?
40:28
SPEAKER_01: They're staggered.
40:29
SPEAKER_01: I think Body at the Beach comes out September 1st, uh Body at Bootcamp comes out September 15th, and then uh Revenge on the Rocks September 22nd.
40:38
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, but but they said that that that was not it for this year, which is incredible because you just had three like three books come out, right?
40:48
SPEAKER_01: So now you've got four more, and then what you've got more after that, before the end of the year.
40:54
SPEAKER_02: Before the end of the year, there is going to be a special duet that comes out in October, which will be two holiday rom-coms.
41:03
SPEAKER_02: Um, this is Meg's return.
41:05
SPEAKER_02: So we're gonna pick up after you've gotten caught up um or reread perhaps the uh Meg Reed series.
41:12
SPEAKER_02: We are gonna pick that series back up 10 years in the future, where uh she and Jill and Matt and all your favorites are back um for a 30th birthday party uh in Bend.
41:24
SPEAKER_02: It's got all the cozy Hallmark charming vibes.
41:28
SPEAKER_02: And then um after that, there will be a second holiday rom-com, also set in Bend, um, that will come out shortly after that.
41:37
SPEAKER_02: I had so much fun with both of these books.
41:40
SPEAKER_02: These are definitely not spicy, these are like your cozy Christmas kind of read.
41:47
SPEAKER_02: So um, yeah.
41:49
SPEAKER_01: They're also not mysteries, though, right?
41:51
SPEAKER_01: Not mysteries, yeah.
41:52
SPEAKER_02: So nobody nobody, no spice.
41:54
SPEAKER_02: Um just cozy holiday vibes.
41:57
SPEAKER_02: Um, with hopefully, you know, like a lot of sweet stories about um personal growth and connection and family.
42:04
SPEAKER_02: And uh there's some cozy food because it's me and there has to be.
42:08
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, they're just uh they're light escapes.
42:11
SPEAKER_01: Cool.
42:12
SPEAKER_02: And I'm super excited about them.
42:14
SPEAKER_01: Uh so yeah, more on those later, um, including covers and stuff as we get closer to their release.
42:21
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
42:23
SPEAKER_02: Uh it's been so fun to have all you darlings on the live chat.
42:26
SPEAKER_02: Ah, I've missed this.
42:28
SPEAKER_02: Uh so thanks for hanging with us.
42:29
SPEAKER_02: And if you're interested, we're gonna head over uh for those of you on Patreon and uh do the after party live.
42:36
SPEAKER_02: We'll see if it works.
42:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
42:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
42:39
SPEAKER_00: We'll have to look into that.
42:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
42:41
SPEAKER_00: All right.
42:42
SPEAKER_00: Well, until next time.
42:44
SPEAKER_02: Until next time.