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V/I Table: Leading When the Vision is in Flux · Integrity at Scale™

• There is a stretch of leadership that nobody really ever prepares you for. And this is really timely actually, but it's when the old vision loses its pull, but there's not really something new in its place yet. So you still have decisions to get made. You still have people that need leadership. You still have systems that are being built and fleshed out or, uh, cleaned up a little bit. And that's what we're gonna talk about is the space where you have to hold uncertainty, but also maintain responsibility. Oh, and I guess I should clarify too. The way that we do this is just through a series of questions. So we'll have five or six questions and then we actually are gonna add on a scenario. So we'll talk through a scenario at the very end of this. And we are off to the races. Question number one, how does this season show up differently in the visionary seat versus the integrator seat? The season of, uh, the vision being kind of in flux? Yeah. I know that you typically like me to answer first, but I, I am curious as you're about to take a sip of your coffee. Yeah, you're good. Go ahead. Um, well, because the reason, the reason I think it's almost a little bit flipped is that, um, the role of the visionary is to drive the vision. And so the role of the integrator is to, it's kind of like you, we talk about God, we're such moms. We talk about like we are. Yeah. We talk about like, um, like you say, like it's just stating, um, or like, I'll hear you say like, the pregnant pause. Yeah, pregnant pause. You know, it just like infiltrates. And I think that's like the idea even of a pregnant pause is kind of what we're talking about essentially. Um, but, but the integrator, , our, our challenges here are so unique because your, your role is to gest state this vision. And, um, if we know anything about gestation, it's that it takes for fucking ever and it's uncomfortable and maybe there are some positive moments, but overall, it's generally not on the whole a pleasant experience. I'm also coming off of a twin pregnancy. That was a literal, yeah. Nightmare. Nightmare. Pretty much from start to finish. Yeah. Um, uh, so anyway, it kind of feels like your role is to give birth to this idea, this vision. Yeah. And then I almost feel like as the visionary, almost like a, in the place of a midwife, like I feel like I am Oh, is the integrator. Yeah. Like I'm, oh yeah, yeah. I'm kind of like helping you transition from like birthing this thing to now we have this thing that's here. Mm-hmm. Um, and so that was a lot of words, not even directly answering your question. Uh, it was good though. I think ultimately it was, um, deferring to me to answer first because the role of visionary as you so aptly put is to drive the vision. Like, yeah. Yeah. Um, how does the season ship differently in visionary seat versus integrator? I, I hate saying I don't know, but like, it, it's hard. I'm saying I don't know. And that, I don't know the e exact felt experience for you as the integrator, so that's part of the like, I'm not sure, but I think for me, anytime the vision is in flux, well, actually there's two answers, probably five or 10, but let's say two to start. One is that I think, I always think of things as mildly influx. Like I think because I think of the practice as being alive, you know, like it's sort of constantly taking in data and adjusting and evolving and shifting and like changing in real time. So anything that. Is in place right now. I think, you know, like I don't give a fuck. Like if it doesn't fit, it doesn't fit. And so if we need to change something, then we need to change something, you know? But with that said, I will say the vision has stayed relatively stable. Some core components have stayed stable over the years. And so when we talk about like the vision being in flux, I think that for me, the constant, like, um, I don't even know if it's like question or like the constant thing that's happening is my evolution or growth as a person, as a leader, as a parent, as a partner, what the fuck ever is intricately tied with the vision. And so in this latest season of life, there's just been a lot of shedding and pruning and not just like slopping shit off, but like actively saying no to things where my body like has any sort of like indifference. Like, no, I'm not, I'm not interested in just doing things for the sake of just doing them. You know, even if I have done them historically and even if part of me might still enjoy them, if there's any indication of this is too much weight in a negative way, no, the answer is just straight up, no. So in some ways it feels really clean, but what happened is that, or what has happened I think is that that also has meant saying no to things that we have kind of talked about for a while with regard to the vision. So there have been things that we I think, like, I'm gonna say loosely planned, but with that we're part of the larger, like fi we do a five-year target. So anybody familiar with EOS, they, they usually say most companies fall on a 10 year target, some do 20. That's crazy to me. So we, God, can you imagine? No, I can't. Like, you plan 20 years. No, that's just, yeah, not at all. So we opted to do, Al leadership team agreed to do a five-year target. So even with our five-year target at our most recent two-day annual vision planning session, we cut shit out. I was like, I don't know why we're this, I don't wanna do this. Like, I don't actually think I wanna do this. My body doesn't want to, like Tara doesn't want to, but it's been part of the vision. So does that mean we should keep it there? I feel like I end up having sort of these existential questions or maybe more philosophical questions about what does it mean to have a vision and then, um. It's, it's changed for me. Again, core components are pretty stable, I would say. Like even cleaner and a little more energetic. But like this extra shit is gone. Like I don't actually wanna do that thing. I think I was doing it out of this felt sense of either obligation or mm-hmm. Let's say maybe, you know, I get excited about shit. So even like excitement and like, yeah, that'll be awesome and then let's do it. But it's not like a sustained excitement or a sustainable excitement I should say. And so, um, I feel like I was going somewhere with that, but maybe my, let me just like try to wrap this up. 'cause I'm curious from your perspective then, if you're talking about being sort of a midwife engaging in midwifery from like a visionary to practice, you know, I think, yeah. It makes me curious what it's like for you then. But ultimately, if it is the visionary that holds the vision, and I'm saying like, Ooh, actually mm-hmm. Like that, that, I don't think that's it. I'm, I'm curious, like from an integrated perspective mm-hmm. Um, the flip side of that coin, or maybe the, you know, the layering over the experiences. What's my point? My point is I feel like the vision is kind of constantly in flux, just in like a pool of magma, you know, like, it's constantly like, is it roiling and like boiling? Mm-hmm. And like bubbling and like it's, there's a movement there. Something's always happening. That's how the vision feels to me. Like it's, it's, there's mo there's always something like going on underneath. So let's say on one hand the vision is always in flux. On the, um, other hand, I need forehand on the other hand. Are some components of it that are stable. The vision is really tied in with my own experience in life and what I feel like capable of at any given moment, which I don't know if that's good or bad, honestly. It just feels like it is and, um, no, maybe that's it. I don't know. I think that might be it. So I think I'm good. It's interesting. Um, well, so, okay. One thing that is interesting that sticks out to me is that you described it as like magma, the vision or like when it's, I think Yeah, just like generally. Mm-hmm. Which is just, it's just an interesting choice in imagery because you could have said like water. Because water can churn and, and, and bubble. Um, but there's almost something a little bit more volatile about mm-hmm. Magma, the little bit more, like, a little bit more dangerous, a little bit more, um, like water can be dangerous, but there's, you know, we don't, it's, we don't drink bag. It's not water. Yeah. It's not water at all to me. Which is funny. Yeah. Because it's like, um, water is too fluid, it's too, uh, it just rolls right off stuff, you know? And obviously like, but I looking like cool and harden. Yeah. And also's, something like it, the way that it bubbles, it, it's like sort of slow moving. Mm-hmm. And like, it's like a, it, I think there's something, um, magma comes to mind because I can just see it like, there's like a thickness, there's a, uh, density, I guess to the actual, uh, why do we always get into science? I'm like, what is, what is it called? Like the actual like, uh, so it's like rock. It's like molten rock. Yeah. There's something that like, it's like minerals and Yeah. But it, it makes me think of, you've seen Fern Gly. You were like a Oh my God, it's been a long, these kids. Yeah. It's been a super long time. My cousins love that movie. Oh man. I mean that's what inspired the like, environmentalist and advocate in me as a child. Oh, that's so funny. Yeah. Um, but it makes me think of like, there's like the tar monster and it's that same kind of like, it's like, it's like thick and kind of sticky and um, when water boils it's like, yeah, it's fast and kind of dizzy and Yeah. With like lava it's like you can kind of see the before it, yeah. Anyway. Yeah. That's funny. Just like that stuck out to me. That was interesting. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, so I think, I think, um. I am going to wager based on like what we've talked, not like on the podcast, but like in generally what in general what we've talked about in terms of the qualities of an integrator. Um, integrators I think tend on the anxious side or can mm-hmm. Um, probably the good ones do. And so there is like a level of, for me, um, a level of anxiety when the vision isn't clear. Um, because in our dynamic, I, I rely on you to help give me clarity, which I then I've, I've said before, like, I like structure, I like knowing, like you very much like feel, don't tell me what to do. And I don't wanna necessarily be told what to do, but I do like knowing, um, kind of the bounds within which I'm operating. Yeah. Um. And so there is an aspect of feeling a little bit, um, as an anxious person, um, I, for a long time grew up feeling and, and even into college feeling like, almost always feeling like I was maybe doing something wrong or like, am I doing something wrong? Am am I gonna get in trouble? Um, and so it's not exactly the same feeling, but it's kind of that like nagging thing when the vision doesn't feel clear to me. Um, or if it's like, it's not clear because we know like, this isn't it, but we haven't quite made the swing of the pendulum to the other side where it's, this is it. Um, it can, it can feel a little unmooring and a little bit like, well, like what is my role here? Mm-hmm. If my, if my role is to guide the, I guess once the, or like take, not guide necessarily, but to. Um, like the baton almost, it feels like the batons being passed. Yeah. And so it's like that liminal space between the baton reaching my hand, it's kind of like I'm sitting there like, okay, okay, I'm ready for this baton. Mm-hmm. Um, but I would also say, um, that while I, I don't know if this is gonna get into some of the questions we're going to cover. That's fine. It can, um, but it feels like what feels, it feels like, feels, the feeling that I have feels about this, the experience is, um, we do have a strong set of values and purpose. Yes. So even if the vision isn't necessarily clear, um, the level of anxiety that I feel is pretty minimal because we have this, um, foundation of our values and our purpose and our niche to lean back on. So maybe the specifics aren't clear. Um, and I can think, like if I'm thinking back on how the specific ways in which our vision has changed, 'cause we started doing a 10 year and then we shifted to a five. Mm-hmm. So even in that regard, it's changed. Um, the change hasn't been like we were going to be the drivers in the community of integrating mental health and gourmet popcorn. Mm-hmm. Like it was ne like that was never it. Yeah. And now we decided, nope, no popcorn. Yeah. Um. The specifics have changed a little bit, but our purpose is, has always been the same, which is to facilitate meaningful connection. Mm-hmm. Um, and so ultimately that can provide the structure, um, or the foundation or the thing I can fall back on as and anxious leaning person in this role because I know that wherever the vision does land, it's going to be rooted back in this thing. Mm-hmm. Um, so it's almost like, yeah, it's like a, um, it's like a reflection internally too, like when life changes, um, and when the direction of life changes the thing that keeps me from spiraling is being rooted and grounded in like. My own values or my own mm-hmm. Like the core, the core components of my, like identity. And so it feels similar. Um, it feels similar, like be being in the, the liminal space is I can still be, I can still act, I can still do things, I can still engage in leadership or in our work, um, because it's all still rooted in the same idea about who we are and what it is we're doing. You said something earlier on about a sense of feeling, um, unmoored a little bit. Like if the vision isn't clear, um, I think that I probably feel like similar in terms of it does feel unmooring. Like I feel kind of untethered. Like, okay, well I know who we are and I know how we show up, but I, I don't really know where we're going right now. Like, why are we going that direction versus that one, why couldn't we go over there instead? What's the point about this? And it, I get into this like, I'm not even gonna say Headspace, where I'm actively like frantic or sometimes maybe, but like, it doesn't feel frantic and frazzled. It just feels like the gestation, it feels like this. Like I'm, I'm grappling with something and I, I don't really know what the outcome is yet, and I don't like that feeling, but I also don't wanna rush through it. And also, I know what I can trust. Like I know that I trust who we are and I know that I can trust how we show up and I know that I can trust how we make decisions about what we do or not, you know, through our core focus. And so I think, um, probably saying the same thing, just in my own words, you know, but I think all of that just mitigates any anxiety around, I don't know what we're doing next. Like, I don't really know what this looks like, but it, it maybe it's less anxious for me and more like impatient. Like, I'm okay, I'm fucking ready. Like come on, show up. You know? 'cause I know I can't force this thing to present itself. And I also know if I try to force something that doesn't actually fit, it's not gonna work. Yeah. Yeah. So. Cool. Are we good? Yeah. Alright. That's good. You know, the thing I'm like, especially good at with podcasts, just how like, good I am at transitions. How segues and All right. Are we done with that? Let's go question two. Okay. This is a good, this is a good, if I, if I had a better way of segueing it, it would've been a good segue to this next question, what we just talked about. What internal pressure exists to resolve the uncertainty too quickly? Um, yeah, I, this, this question I wanted to talk about. 'cause I think it's really, it's you, like, you, I think, feel a lot of the internal pressure. Yeah. Um, interestingly, I, I don't, um, it just like knowing the, the two of us and how we operate, it feels like a little bit. Um, like, you wouldn't guess this, but I'm actually pretty comfortable with the, like, sitting in the waiting, like, like sitting in the waiting room. Like it doesn't, um, I, I might be anxious to get to the next part, but I'm also really comfortable, like, just sitting in the waiting of it all. Um, and I think you, I think I'm, I think I tend to be more of a reactive person and you tend to be more of a proactive person. I think you're more mm-hmm. Much more like, let's go after this thing. Let's, let's figure this thing out. Let's let, let's, let's start, you know, solutioning, like, when we're talking about problem solving, like, I think after an appropriate period of like being curious and trying to identify, you know mm-hmm. Um, I think you're ready to like, let's make a move, let's do something. Mm-hmm. Um, and I'm much more comfortable. Kind of sitting back and saying, well, let's, let's wait and see, or let's, like, I'd like some time to consider the options, or I'd like to observe more. Um, and so I, I, I also think that that's probably like the visionary integrator difference. Mm-hmm. My job isn't really to, to, to make moves, especially around vision. That is your job. And so it would make sense that I think my perception, and I think what I've heard you talk about is feeling a sense of urgency and a pressure. Um, I also think you feel so, I, I don't mean to like speak for you, but my No, you're good. My, my, um, perception is that you feel a, like a sense of responsibility to. The practice as like mm-hmm. An idea, but also to the people who make up the practice. And I think you're very sensitive to, not in a negative way, but you're very attuned to how that lack of clarity that might, that might exist when you are in a season of flux, might result in a feeling of like anxiety or disconnection for particularly staff who aren't involved necessarily, um, you know, in leadership team or in higher level level decision. But you could also make the argument like how tuned in are people to that, that process anyway. Mm-hmm. Like how tuned in, um, are the staff or the employees to any flux that there might be? Honestly, it's, it's more likely that they hear about it after the fact. I, but, so, so I don't know. I, I think I just kind of like meandered away from the path there for a minute. But I don't feel, I don't personally feel internal pressure. No, no, that's interesting. Also think, I also think the nature of the integrator is much more like operational and tasky. Mm-hmm. Uh, maybe not tasky, but like, there are concrete, like I'm not doing a lot of abstract thinking conceptualizing. Mm-hmm. There, like the, the work of my day is much more, okay, I've gotta connect with this person. I've gotta research this thing, I've gotta make these decisions, I've gotta have these conversations. Mm-hmm. And so it's, it's kind of easy for me because, um, that internal pressure. It really isn't mine to own. Um, the internal pressure that I will feel is more like deadline related or like, oh, I see I've got these things that I'm responsible for, that I have to get done. And it's usually I have to do this by this, this day or this time. So it's usually more of a time, um, time-based pressure instead of Yeah. Yeah. Well, what about do you feel internal press, sorry, internal pressure? Excuse me. When, um, like if the vision isn't clear, you talked about a sense of feeling unmoored. Um, you know, I connected that language, so I think that's the word I'm gonna keep repeating. Yeah. But like unmoored or untethered and there's some anxiety around that. Um, that doesn't create any like. I think that, that I'm, I'm asking this and I'm realizing like, oh yeah, Tara, that's you being a lean into pressure animal. Like, if I feel internal tension, I gotta, I, I gotta move. Like, so I'm not, I'm not, I can't, I'm just imagining us us in the waiting room. You, you brought that up as a visual and I'm like, yeah, I would, if I was like stuck there, I'd be fucking up pacing around, like, all right. Yeah. What are we doing? Like on my phone, texting, calling, can I work? Can I do this? I like, meanwhile, I've got my Kindle and I'm just sitting there. Yes. Like, I'm good. Let me just, I'm just gonna read. If I knew, if I knew that I was gonna be in the waiting room, I'd be more okay with it. But if I like was there and it was taking forever, I would just like have this growing sort of, like need to explode. Like now I'm thinking about the bag, mic, and um, yeah. So that the internal pressure piece, like the unmoored and the feeling anxiety, that doesn't create an internal pressure for, like, that doesn't translate to any sort of, pressure to resolve something or do you know what I'm saying? I think I'm curious what that's like for you on the inside. I think it's connected. So, so the way, the way that it shows up for me, like any internal sense of pressure, um, is, is more about, so I'm thinking like, I'm thinking of vision in like, the big picture, like how, like the direction of the practice, you know. Um, but there are times I would say like where maybe on a more like micro level, um, if there like, okay, marketing is a great example. The vision around marketing. Is something that I think is in flux for us right now and has been, yeah, agreed. Okay. So if I'm using that lens rather than like the annual two day and how we're visioning the, like, the larger direction of the practice, if I, if I boil that down to like, where we're at with marketing right now, um, it does manifest as internal pressure or rather when it doesn't feel clear that what that translates to for me is, um, it feels like I should be doing something, but I don't know what. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. And, and that is a really uncomfortable feeling for me and because I'm a much more internal person and we've talked before, like just different, um. Framework doesn't necessarily feel like the right word, but like lenses through which we experience the world. Um, if I don't understand something, essentially I feel like it's something wrong with me. And you come from a completely different perspective of, if I'm feeling unclear, like you thinking, if I'm feeling unclear about something, then everyone must be like, that's, that's something. It there's a name for that universality. Yeah. Yeah. Or the assumption of similarities from a Gottman perspective. That one. Yeah. Yes, that one. Yeah. And so for me, my, in my instinct or my, like, first thought is also the open secret. Sorry. Also the open secret if we're gonna go with Rumi. The Sufi. Yeah. Anyway, go ahead. I'm sorry. Your first thought is, I'm so sorry I cut you off. No, no, that's okay. My first thought is, um, this discomfort is coming because I don't, I don't understand something. It's my problem to own, um, rather than the vision isn't clear. And so it's not that I'm not understanding, it's like, it's like it's, this thing is kind of, it's understandable in this point in time. Like it's, it's nebulous. It's like nebulous. It's like, or I haven't clarified it enough. I think like the vision either isn't clear, period. Like I'm literally in the process of grappling with this thing, or I think I've clarified it with you and I haven't. And either way, neither of those things have anything to do with you. Yeah. But if you, you're right. Like I, my tendency is to be like, well, if I don't fucking understand, then nobody else must either. Like, yes. Yeah. And so even if I don't understand and nobody else does, I still wanna fucking understand. So tell me what am I missing? You know? Yeah. Yeah. So I think for me, that now that I've identified that feeling or what that thing is, it's, it's actually kind of like a data. A flare. Yeah, a flare signal. Something pointing me to uh oh. There's actually something, there's something here that I need to bring you in on because you're right. It's either that thing's not done percolating yet, or it makes a lot of sense in your brain and it just hasn't translated well to mine yet. And I think that is a unique challenge for a visionary, um, because I think things can be very clear and concrete. Like I feel like once you hit it, it's like there and it's in your brain. Yeah, that's exactly it. Yes. But then, but then you have to translate what is so clear in your brain to other people who have different ways of understanding things who have not been a part of this whole process internally for you. Um, it's, it's kind of like how it's like amazes me how people can, like how people can do art like. You can take something up here Yeah. And translate it into something that is universally accessible to other people. Like you can transmute this feeling. Mm-hmm. Which is such an abstract thing into this visual representation that evokes this same emo. I mean, it's, it's incredible. And so it's like a similar agree, it's a similar process of like, you have this thing that is so clear in your brain and now your task is to transmute that into a, a form that is accessible and understandable to other people. That gives me like, uh, like makes me viscerally react because that is my constant pain point. Yeah. Like the, the, one of the things that is fuck super fucking hard for me and maybe just in general is I don't know. That's actually not true. I don't think this is hard for every person. I think you're good at this. I think there are some people who are really good at this thing. And I am not one of them. Taking something from my head, a concept and then distilling it down. It, I think it's, I think I'm impatient. Like I can do this, I can do this thing and God, it takes me fucking forever. You know? It just takes so long. Mm-hmm. I remember doing my qualifying experience, sorry, not qualifying experience, but my comprehensive exams and so Oh yeah, comps. You had three. Yeah. Uh, yeah, comps. Yeah. Two of them are take home, which was great. But one. The faculty, he was more old school and he was like, no, this is onsite. You get a four hour block and you have to answer some questions and you don't get to know what they are in advance. I, it was, I did it and it was, I had to like stand up and do fucking jumping jacks in the room at various points and like, stretch my body and like do yoga poses. That was a brutal, brutal process to be holed up for four hours and to like have to like get a bunch of thoughts like down on paper. And so it's hard, it's fucking hard for me to do. And no part of me like enjoys the process. It fucking takes forever to do. That's why I would much rather talk than type. Yeah. Or like talk out loud about something because then it's just, well, this and also this and maybe this thing over here and then this thing. But that's not fair for anybody around me if I'm trying to translate a concept over to another person to then enact. So to do the thing that has to be done, like even with marketing for example, or if I'm doing something for, um, I'm thinking about with Molly whenever we're trying to like, tease apart our clinical team, lead from our supervisory role. Mm-hmm. And not only like the expectations, how do these live together? How do they, you know, intersect with clinicians and at what point and, and like, what does the supervision developmental framework look like? That all lives in my head, you know, and I thought it was really clear. And then I go to write it down or I go to like, get this on paper and it's like, well god damn, like that's way more than I actually thought that it was. Like, I thought it was just simple. So I think it's like. Yeah, I, maybe I'm just like going on too long about this, 'cause it's such an unenjoyable experience to have, to get it onto paper in a coherent way. Like I can't just put out fucking slop, you know? 'cause then the people around me don't have any idea what to do. It's hard to do and it has to be done. It's like an Yeah. Necessary thing. I think it's super important. I've like especially seen more and more like the significance of needing to do this thing well. Yeah. And it's so hard. It's so hard. Yeah. It's like once you're able to do that, it, it relieves pressure. It relieves pressure everywhere. For you. Yes. For you. And then it's, the rest of us are like, okay. It's that thing of like, I know, I know what it is. That I need to do. I know where I'm supposed to go with this. I feel I know where it intersects with other things. How it fits in the system. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, exactly. And so then it's like, then we can be off to the races. Um, and I feel that really clearly, but I feel, um, I feel really impeded when I don't feel like I understand. Yeah. Um, or the thing, the thing isn't clear. Um, yeah. And then I avoid it, you know, I avoid it. I don't, I try not to think about it. 'cause it just, it creates, you know, creates all this like internal like, uh, discomfort for me and Yeah. You know, I'm gonna run away from that. Yeah. Yeah. Not me. I'm gonna just run straight towards it and tackle it when I have it. I think this is actually, you know, I think we talked about this a little bit last time maybe, um, or I did, or we did, I don't have any idea, but there's something in this too, those sorts of things, like they require big energy from me. Like, it, it takes me a lot of energy, you know, not only to sit and think through something and actively grapple with it. Grappling is I think it's kind of exhausting. I like doing it, but it's still an exhausting process. But then to take that and then translate into like a document or multiple, like sheets or documents, tracking where they live, who they're with, all of that stuff. It also requires big chunks of time to do. Yeah. So even right now, I am actively grappling with marketing related stuff and it is taking me time to do like, it's not only. Like, I can be thinking about stuff, but then there's like this, again, active, like I'm sitting and I'm like researching and I'm talking to fucking chat, you know, saying like, let me talk through this out loud and here's what I'm thinking and here's why. And like, push back on this. Does this make sense? You know, and it's like I'm like sort of arguing with somebody about this to help really give it shape and like give it form and it, right, and you're doing this, you're doing this all while also like getting all these emails from like me saying like, Hey, I need you to do this thing. Hey, I need you to do this thing thing. Yeah, sure. Like there's other you're trying has to be maintained. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like this thing requires a huge amount of energy and a huge amount of dedicated time. And you're also balancing that against, um, and this is where it's like the, it's truly the juxtaposition of the visionary and the integrator because mm-hmm. Like I said, time, like time pressure. I got shit I have to do and I need this, like, I need this thing immediately and for whatever reason, like, I need your input or, or it's like marketing. It's happening, like mm-hmm. We can't, we're not like, we're, it's not like we can press pause on this thing so that you can grapple with it and visionary it and conceptualize it, and then press play again once it's all clear. Yes. It still is ongoing. It's, yeah, it's happening. We have to keep doing it. So it's like, even like little things, like we need, like the website needs to be updated about this thing. Yep. And who, and like really who, who should be doing, and so it's just like, that's the grappling, like, what does this role actually look like? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. But you're, but you're, you're doing that. Yeah. It's like you're asking your brain to engage in two completely different processes. Mm-hmm. Almost at the same time. And that's really, really challenging, I think for you in particular. Not like you Tara, but like, just the kind of the way you think about things and how you do your work. Yeah. Like that's really challenging. Yeah. Um, I feel like you're, um, better at the, as a side note, and then I think I'm, we can probably move on to the next question after this, but I feel like, yeah. I feel like some people are good at just, um, well, I would say good at switching tasks, but I still think there's also a cognitive like, cost to doing that, but they do it faster and better. Um, I'm not good at that. And so if I'm doing tasks and I need, like I have to do items, I just have to work on to do items. And if it is gonna cost, if it's like, oh actually this is not just one to do, it's like this to do, but it's associated with this big thing. Nope, I'm not fucking doing that right now. 'cause now I'm gonna like, this is a whole different, you know, it's a whole different part of my brain is what it feels like. Yeah. Anything else before we, no. No. Okay. All right. Question three. Where have you noticed others misinterpret this season as indecision or stagnation? That's interesting. Well, so it kind of alights on this thing that I talked on earlier, talked around earlier about like staff perception. Um, and it's almost like a retroactive, um, it's like because, appropriately so, our staff is not. Privy to the kind of ongoing grappling or, you know, maybe micro changes or the way, I mean, I really think that what, what we haven't talked about, like, is maybe why vision might be in flux. Like what might be driving, you know, the flux in vision. And I think for us, a lot of times we talk about, part of the reason why we shifted from a 10 year to a five year, um, is because we found that when we were setting a 10 year and then trying to translate that down into one year, three year, it almost felt like we were forcing ourselves in a direction that didn't actually make sense or that didn't feel right. And so we talked about things happening more organically and that happens. You know, like that, it's like a. We don't want to be a practice or a leadership team that is beholden to the changing of the winds. Like we're just gonna be blown this direction, that direction. But also, it's kind of like the butterfly effect. How things that are happening now are gonna change the direction that that up thing is a thing is gonna go, or what might might happen 10 years in the future. And so I think you also talked about thi like feeling restrictive, like saying we're gonna do this thing in 10 years. Um, it feels really restrictive. And so all of that to say, that part of why I think maybe we have become more accustomed and comfortable with the vision just kind of constantly being in flux is, is by design. It's, it's intentional because we want our vision to be more organic, to be, um, we want it to be flexible instead of rigid, because we wanna meet the needs, the changing needs of the practice. The, the political climate changes, the experience of running a business, changes financials, change, um, trends in the provision of therapy like change. Mm-hmm. We learn more and more every year about how the human brain works or mm-hmm. You know, and so we want to be responsive to that. And also, like, I, I kind of connect this back to your experience of like shedding and wintering. Um, we also are, as humans, continually reflecting on. What makes sense in our lives and making decisions about whether or not something is continuing to serve us. Okay. So that's why, um, that's kind of why can I, the vision is in flux. Yeah. I'm sorry. I wanted, I just wanna chime in before I forget this. I, as you were talking, I was thinking about, um, years ago, this is like when Steve and I were like first living together, like, we're messy. You know, we're figuring it out. Like we're a young couple. I remember saying something about my life is just a series of happenstance moments, like how I got to where I got to. It still feels that way. Like I still feel like there's so much happenstance that has happened throughout my life and, um, I think now I would say happenstance plus constant like, um, self-monitoring in terms of like how I feel if this is an alignment. Like I didn't have that language before, but I think that was happening, but I just didn't know it was happening. But with Steve, he is one of those like, and I think there are people like this too, who they pick a destination in the future and then they like, that's it. Like they're going there. I can't do that. I don't know what the fuck I wanna eat tomorrow. Like, I don't know what I'm gonna wanna do. And, and even five years is hard to think about like a five year target and a three year vision and a one year plan. You know, it's like, okay, a year we can plan on this. 'cause I know also at this point the ship is big enough, it's gonna take a, a hot minute to move, you know? And if the expectation now is that the vision gets to evolve with us, that feels like finally having an accurate reflection of my internal state with forward motion. Like at any given point in time, if something feels off, like if we're walking. We charted a course and we're walking on this path, let's say through the woods, and then somehow like it diverges. You know, there's something about like, Ooh, we could actually go this way or this way. I'm gonna stand there and look both ways and see how I feel. I'm literally gonna like move and look this way. Physiologically, what happens in my body compared to over here and whichever way feels right is my preference. You can't chart that in advance. Like if we didn't know that there was this spot in the woods that actually there's a little fork and it comes back together way up there. You don't actually know how you feel until you're at that moment. I don't know how I feel until I'm at that moment. So regardless if, if I add on a half a mile or two, maybe to my journey, if I don't feel good about going the way that maybe we had planned going left, if I don't feel good about left, at the point that we arrive at that destination, I'm gonna fucking add two miles to my journey and I'm gonna go to the right. It's the same even when we sit for our meetings. I know you get so rusted. You like come in and you're like, I'm not setting my shit down until you decide if you wanna be in this room. Like literally, like it has to, I has to like feel. Yeah. And maybe that's a little bit OC d esque. Maybe it's a little bit fucking neurodivergent. I don't know. Yeah. But I know that it has to feel right. I have to feel settled in my body to say yes to something. I cannot ever, I never know exactly what that will be in advance. Yeah. So again, like these core components of a vision, for example. Yeah. I know those. Like we have core components. Mm-hmm. I know our values. That feels totally settled. I know our core focus, that feels absolutely settled, but like the specifics, I don't fucking know. Who knows? Like, yes. Yeah. You know, that makes me think of, um, something that is really, that can be really triggering for Andrew and I with Lucy. Our three-year-old right now is, um. She, we will say, for example, and I think any parent of a toddler can relate to this frustration will say, what do you want for breakfast? And she'll say, yogurt. And this isn't actually true 'cause she loves yogurt, but yeah, sure. I'll make her, I'll make her yogurt. And then she'll say, I don't want that. I want cereal. Mm-hmm. And it's like, I just fucking made you this $8 organic Greek yogurt. Yeah. Eight bowl with organic blueberries. You'll eat this fucking yogurt. Yeah. Yeah. Or, and that would never happen. 'cause she fucking loves yogurt. Yeah. Yeah. But maybe it's like she'll, Ugh. The big thing she'll tell us right now, she needs to go potty. And then we'll say, okay, go potty. And then she'll say, not right now. While she's like holding herself and it's like, you are going to piss in your pants. Mm-hmm. If you do not go to the bathroom. Oh gosh. And like, we'll refuse to go, but then I need to go to the bathroom. Will you come with me? Yeah. And it's just like, and what I, what I have, what I try, like my mantra right now and what I try to like remind Andrew of is she's allowed to change her mind. As, as frustrating as it might be for me because it disrupts whatever plan I had or whatever I, you know, there is something about that, like that fluidity or that change that feels frustrating to me. Um, because I like to have a plan. I like to know where we're going and what we're gonna do. And I don't like going back and forth. I don't like having to pivot. 'cause it takes a lot of energy ultimately. Yes. Like it, it does take energy to go back and forth. Um, but also. She's allowed to change her mind. Now, the going pee or not going pee, that feels like, that's just like power struggle. That's a different thing. Yeah, sure, sure. Yeah. But like, but she is, she's allowed to change her mind about things. She's allowed to think, I thought I wanted that thing, but now that I see that thing, I don't, I realize I, that's not actually what I wanted in the first place. What I really wanted was cereal. Um, and I just, I forgot, or I didn't know, you know? So it's like mm-hmm. It's this idea of like allowing ourselves the flexibility to say, yeah, yeah. I thought, I thought this is what I wanted, but it's not like we're allowed to change our minds. We're allowed to say, this doesn't serve, serve, or this, this doesn't fit anymore. Yeah. You know, it made all the sense in the world, but it just doesn't anymore. And maybe on paper it makes sense. Yeah. But when we get here at this junction, nope. This isn't a, that's the water. That to me is water. That's a fluidity piece. That's a creek bed. That's a, it's a creek bed. A stream. It's not a giant river, but it's like we're traipsing through the woods. I wanna walk through the stream and I want my shoes and socks off, and I wanna feel the water on my feet. You know, it's like, yeah, no, I, I wanna do this thing. Like, that's it. But I couldn't have known that prior to getting there. Yeah. And it's like not being able to know, you know, I thought I wanted yogurt, but I see it and like, I don't want this. Like, yeah. I don't want that actually for practice. It sounded good. I, I usually love yogurt, you know? Yeah. It's a tried and true staple. Yeah. But for whatever reason I'm looking at it not today. Yeah. And that, yeah. That ain't it. Yeah. Um, yeah. So, I don't know. I think that, I think that to circle all the way back to the, oh yeah. Question. You actually, have you noticed, actually, okay, I'm gonna rephrase it or restate it. Where have you noticed others misinterpret the season as indecision or stagnation? I think it's that. I think it's like we literally just went on this whole journey of discussing this thing and we arrived back at a point, but. Most people, I'm, I mean, I'm assuming we're talking about anyone outside of our leadership team, they're not sure. They're not, they're not listening in on this conversation. Mm-hmm. Um, but what they might see is we told them, Hey, this is, this is our map. This is where we're going. And then when they see the route that we took, they're thinking, that doesn't, what the fuck, that does not, that's not the map. That's not what you said you're gonna do. And so I think the, um, the worry that we can have as leaders, as leadership, um, is that people are going to misunderstand the journey, you know? And we, I think, um, I think for people who have been with us, um, they know like. Yeah. It's like that trust, it's like trust inherent in all of this is trust. Mm-hmm. And so the people who have been with us a long time, they know that that's our process. That's your process. Yeah. That there is gonna, there is gonna be some meandering. Um, but hopefully what folks have seen over time is that we are consistent in the ways that matter. Like we, we are consistent and we meander with intention. We don't meander because it's for the fun of it. Mm-hmm. We don't meander, um, because we're not disciplined, um, or we're not focused. Mm-hmm. Um, but it's, I hate to bang the same drum that I'm always banging. Um, but it's like unlocking the like, the inherently feminine side, which is much more fluid, much more creative. It's like if we allow ourselves to be open to the creative process, which is essentially what we're talking about in the context of business, um, or, you know, visualizing conceptualization when you allow yourself, when you open yourself up to the messy process of meandering and testing and putting your feet in the creek rather than sprinting as fast as you can over the shortest distance to get to a destination. Um, it's like the idea that like children's work is play, like Yeah, play isn't play, it's work for them. It's like a core fundamental process that they're experiencing and engaging in that's developing all species. Like I think about lion like lion cubs play. Yeah. Like, that's not, that's, that's play, but. It's prep, like play is prep, play is practice, practicing. Yes. Yeah. They're learning. They're, yes, they're, they're literally and metaphorically building muscles and stretching out parts of themselves. Yeah, and it's, and so it's, it's similar. It's like on its face, this might look like. Frolicking Indecision without purpose. Indecision. Yeah. Meandering. Sta frolicking. I love that word, frolicking. Yeah. It does feel like froing. You know, that's frolic. Yeah. Um, but really, but really, when you are giving yourself over and allowing yourself to explore, then it, it, it goes back to that meaning it's like once you arrive at the destination or a new destination that wasn't even planned. That was, there was meaning in that, that didn't happen by accident. Mm-hmm. In, in the sense of, I just stumbled upon this thing. Now maybe you did stumble upon it because you were meandering, and then you discovered, you know, you discovered meaning in that direction and, you know, you had clarity on that was never actually a direction we wanted to go in, or that was never actually the right destination for us. Mm-hmm. But ultimately, um, it might look like that on its face. But, and to, I think, and to, I think newer folks, it might feel like. What the fuck, what's, what's going on here? Yeah, sure. Yeah. You know, if they had any, like, yeah. It's even like something as small or seemingly minuscule as, um, I sent out the 2026 handbook and manual, and within two hours of sending that out, I had new edits, I had new additions, I had new things to add. Mm-hmm. You know, so it's like, that's not, whoops, that's not indecision. Yes. That's, that's not being, um, that's being alive. That's the practice being alive. Yeah. That's being, it's being responsive. That's, that's being flexible and saying, yeah. Oh, you're right. Like that, that thing didn't make sense. Or, um, this new thing came up that we hadn't considered before. Mm-hmm. And so we need to make sure we need to communicate that in a different way or in a new way. So anyway, ultimately it might look like that, but I think the antidote to that is trust. And it goes back to being rooted in the, the focus, the purpose, the vision. Yes. The, the, the values. Yeah. We're saying this is who we are and this is what we're about. Then it's like, okay, I can be along for the ride. Maybe not, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I'm thinking that the, the people who would probably, I think that there are people at the practice who consistently interpreted what leadership was doing as, um, indecision and stagnation. I would say they would probably interpret it more as like whiplash and, um, like probably never stagnation. I don't think that that's ever actually a thing. I think it's more like, it would look more like indecisiveness or like we said this, but then it was this. Um, I, I do think that's a very real possibility and I feel like my only, I, I like what you said, one of the antidotes trust, and I feel like also the only other thing I can do. Just share some of the process. You know, we did this thing for this reason, and as we went, here's what we learned and here's what we realized, and here's how we evolved and like decided to change course. This is why instead of going from A to Z and the, the fastest route possible, like, no, we wanted to hit up these other letters. We wanted to make sure that as we're going along this path, every step of the way is intentional. It's, it's purposeful. There's, um, it, maybe it's not inherently meaningful, but like what we're doing is on purpose. What we're building is on purpose. And even just, just the other day, we, you know, anything that's is in place might not be in place. And so sometimes what I think if I'm using harsh language, like let's say indecisiveness, if somebody was looking and they'd say, well, you're just being indecisive. I think it works sometimes in the favor of employees. Like sometimes it's like. I, there's questions that come up. We just had something happen the other day with a, one of the employees, you know, they ask a question about something and it was like, makes me p it gives me enough pause that now I start to question this whole little like, rule that we have over here where I'm like, well, I actually, I don't know if I like that rule anymore. Mm-hmm. I don't think that that feeds into safety and belongingness. I'm not sure that I, I like the way that it has to be enacted. I don't know if I really wanna keep doing that. And so that's not necessarily like charting the course, but like, as we're going along the way, theoretically this thing has been set. We could just leave it and say too fucking bad. Like, this is what we're gonna do, but I don't wanna just get somewhere at the cost of everybody being unhappy or not feeling like they are taken into consideration or like that we actively tune in and think about the experience of the people who are along for the ride. And so. There are, I guess I'm trying to say there are examples of what might look like in decision that are really, um, always to me the indecision is more about like alignment. Like what are we doing and is it an alignment? And if the answer is no, then I don't wanna keep doing it. I'm not interested, like Yeah. And it doesn't work, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And I think that there is always going to be an aspect of, um, we can think as hard as we want and we can Yeah. Talk, try and process. We can discuss, yeah. We can go back and forth and we can consider every option that is, that we, that we can see and still in the process of. Business of life, of living, um, we're gonna bump up against things that, that weren't visible to us at the time. Yes. Always. Um, yeah. So it's like that thing that you're talking about, that policy, that process made sense at the time. Mm-hmm. And I remember like, this is not new either, it's just something you and I have talked about and gone back and forth about. Yep. Um, and until it really bumped up against real life mm-hmm. Not just from a conceptual point of view, um, it, it was clear at that point, but now we've bumped up against something that is a different data point that adds a different layer of experience on Yes. That actually, you know, kind of tilts the scale in a different direction or Yeah. Or is is kind of like, it just, um, to, to your, um, analogy of steering the ship. It, what's it called? It's not the wheel. Was that thing course correcting the, like, oh, is it pump the wheel? Hu. Is it just the wheel? It's like whatever you say, let's you say the wheel. Yeah, the hole. The hole is like the, is it the hole? Oh, the space where you live? No, it's the, it's whatever where you live. No, I don't think so. But I think the hole is like, it's where you live in the whatever. It's the mask. This, this data point. Supplying jib. Okay. This data point bumps, the bumps, the steering wheel, um, steering wheel enough that it actually, that it does actually change the direction a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Which I like. I think that what I was thinking too is that people, if there, and then I, I wanna go to the next question 'cause it really relates to what we're talking about, but the, anybody who, I feel like if you're here for three months, like the way we talk about things, the way we actively operate this is not hidden. Like it's, it's known. Yeah. This is sort of a known, you know, and so I do feel like the people who stay and vibe like this, they're o they know this. Like they, there's enough trust built up. There's enough of, we have been doing. It's like, it's, it's like this, you know, like we're moving sort of in this direction, but there's like, it's micro adjustments. Mm-hmm. There's like a series of all these like small corrections as we're going. And again, sometimes it feels, I think it, I, I, I don't think always, but I do think that often the micro adjustments, especially whenever we explain why like rationale and like what is happening, you know, I think that they help people feel safer. Yeah. In general, on average. Not necessarily always, but I think that that feeds into trust and so they think like, oh, you are thinking about this. You are taking this into consider. Well, but they might not think anything. But I think maybe the um, very subconscious like landing as like, Ooh, okay. They got it. There's something about, yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'm gonna do the next question 'cause I think it kinda relates how do roles, structure and trust compensate when future clarity is temporarily absent? How do they compensate when it's absent? You know? Um, I think it is that thing of, um, when there is maybe a, a felt sense of unmooring or, or like, we're, like something shifting, but we haven't like, locked into place yet. Um, I think one, it is about transparency and, and like naming kind of what you're saying. Like, Hey, I think there might be this feeling like maybe, maybe you're feeling this way. We like, we're feeling this way, or we know that this, this is a possibility. Um, so I think it's, uh, it's that thing of like acknowledging all of the players at the table mm-hmm. That this, this feeling is, is it may be showing up, uh, and almost just like acknowledging it like, yeah, like this might be the case and we're feeling it too. Or we're, we're experiencing this thing. Mm-hmm. And. What we do know, kind of like refocusing or regrounding in Yeah. In what we've talked about. Like what we do know is these things aren't changing. Like, yes, this is still true. We are still about these things. Our focus is still this thing. Um, but we also really value, like, we do value being flexible. We do value being, um, responsive to the needs of our people, the needs of our practice. Um, and so if you have questions like we're, I think, I think it's demonstrating like transparency about the process, but also a willingness or an openness to engage with any discomfort that people might be experiencing or any questions that people might have. Um, you know, I, and I can think of examples where you've said like, I don't know that I have an answer for you, but if you, you know, if you're feeling this and you wanna. Explore that, you know, we're open to exploring that with you and, and bring, let, letting you come alongside. Um, I think for us there are, it's, it's kind of like knowing your people. It's like knowing, like we have people who they do wanna know. They wanna know, like gimme all the details. I wanna know where you really, the details. Yeah. Yeah. I wanna know where you're at in the process. I wanna know how that veered off. I wanna know all of that. And there are other people who are like, actually that's gonna stress me out. Mm-hmm. Um, just tell me that you've got it and let me know. Like, let me alone know when you've alone. Yeah. Let me know when you've made a decision where you, when you've like landed and then I will be with you there. Yeah. Um, and so I think that's kind of the balance that you have struck and that we've like, and I don't think that's, I, I don't know. You do, I think you do everything with intention, but I don't think that it's like, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna engage with people this way solely because it's going to keep people happy. But I think it's a natural, it's like a natural, that's just who you are. Like you are a person who is transparent and who is attuned to the needs of, um, your employees. And I think you're, you are just very open and, um, vulnerable about, like, you are not afraid. You just show up how you are. Mm-hmm. Like, I'm in process and this is messy. I'm thinking about it, I'm intentional, but I'm thinking about it. And it might like, if it feels confusing, I'm sorry that that's the feeling, but I, I understand. You know, like I understand why you're feeling that. Yeah. Or I understand, you know? Yes. But I can't do anything about it. 'cause this is what is Yeah. It is what it is like. Mm-hmm. So it's like, it's, it's kind of like, it's, um. I'm such a fucking cliche man. It's, it's, it's, I like being cliche. It's how we show up as parents. It's like, kids need, they need that quiet leadership. So it's that way of saying like, yeah, you're having this feeling and I understand this feeling. Um, I understand that doesn't make sense and it might not, you know, it might not make sense and I'm feeling frustrated, but ultimately, like, I am going to lead, I'm going to lead us mm-hmm. Where we need to go. And so there's a certain level of like, and I don't mean to like make the parallel that like we are infantalizing our employees or like we are Yeah. Gross. We're not like, not at, yeah. No, but it's that idea of like, um. Sometimes you don't need to understand, like, you don't actually need to fully understand to, to trust that my role, like I always ask Liz, like, what's my job? What's mommy's job to keep you safe? Yeah. Like to understand that our, my job is to keep you all safe, you know? Mm-hmm. Emotionally or otherwise, you know, or in terms of the job. Yeah. But I think that's how it compensates. It's, it's refocusing on like who you are, how that shows up, um, in those moments of like maybe lack of clarity or discomfort. Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, I don't think you said this, but I feel like you're alluding to it. Um, my thought is that with the, like how do roles and structure and trust compensate when future clarity is like temporarily absent or maybe it's in flux, or maybe it's just like, yeah, maybe not there at all, you know? I think that, um, it's like the only thing that people have then, like, and for me it's like the, the roles, the structure, and the trust, also like, like, uh, take into account the values, the focus, like all of the eeo s based things that we do. So like structure to me is also the core values and the core focus and the like. It's all of those things. And so we might not know exactly exactly exactly where we're going, but we have this general sense of direction and. You know, I think, you know, I have a lot of self-efficacy. Like, if we're gonna need to do something, like, we'll, I'll figure it out. Like, we'll figure out what we need to do. And so I, I also think there's something about, like, I, I don't have any sort of like, um, if I don't know something, I don't care. Like, I don't have any sort of like, well, I'm supposed to know I'm supposed to have all these answers. I'm supposed to, whatever. Maybe like, sure. I guess like some people might think that way, but I'm not one of them. Like, I feel like my job is to, like, I have this idea of where we're going. I don't know what it's gonna be like to get there. Like, it might be a treacherous journey. It might be really easy and kind of like a cakewalk. And as we're going, like, uh, I'll see how I feel like we might turn left when we planned on going, right. We might do this instead of that, we might. Pause if we find a beach and we all offload and have a fucking picnic, you know? And so I trust myself, like I trust myself and I trust my leadership team. And honestly, like I trust the full team to be honest with me. Also, if shit's coming up, if you have questions, if you're not sure, you need to tell me. So then we can process as we're going. Like the, the maybe ultimately, like I trust the process, I trust the process and I trust myself in process and I also kind of extend that to the people around us. And I think because of the structure and the roles, and by structure, again, I'm thinking like EOS and like the roles that we have, I'm able to trust what has been built to carry us where we need to go. Also in terms of structure and like meeting rhythms when we get to a quarterly or an annual with our leadership team, I know we're gonna look at the roles that we even have. Like, do we need another one in place to support where we're trying to go next? So it's funny, I think like how do roles structure and trust compensate when future clarity is temporarily absent? I feel like trust is a byproduct of roles and structure. Um, and by structure I mean to say like EOS, all of EOS, and also practice culture. So I think like roles structure and practice culture compensate when there's not future clarity. And all of those things really feed into, feed into trust. Yeah. It's like the idea that we, um, I say we, I feel like sometimes when I say we, I am almost taking ownership over more than I like, have a right to Oh, that's funny. Yeah. Good. 'cause you've done like, a lot of this is, is actually you. Um, and I'm just like, you know, a late addition to the team that also gets the, like, I'm the water boy who gets the NB whatever, water Boy. Like the ring. Like I was part of the team, but I wasn't out there making the threes. You, you know what I mean? So funny. Oh my gosh. Um, but, but it's this idea that the roles, the structure, the culture, these things were actually built with to withstand this fluctuation or with fluctuation in mind. Um, it's like baked into the process. It's like people who build their houses on stilts, understanding the environment that they are in, like that floods are gonna come. It's not like that. Yeah. You know, if a flood is gonna happen, but it's understanding No, this, this will happen. And we have built things again with intention. Um. We also communicate about things with intention and saying, Hey, this is what it is, this is what it is. Like, going back to like the, the handbook or the manual saying this is a live document. This is, I'm sending this to you. Yeah. This is what it is right now at this moment in time. But you know, like I, I'm gonna be updating it and sure as, shit, I've got updates like at the end of this month, basically I'm gonna send out an email and say, guess what? I updated this updates Yeah. Enough that I wanna make you aware of, of some of these changes. Mm-hmm. So again, it's like this idea that we've, we've, these things have been created with flux in mind to be able to withstand the pressure of, maybe not tumult, but like some Yeah. Stronger winds than are normal. You know? I, yeah. I wanna say one more thing and then I think we move on to a scenario. 'cause I think you have a hard stop at a certain time. Yeah. Okay. So, um, you should say we, because. I could not do this without you in place. Like there's no way that what is in place right now would exist in the way that it does if you were not in the seat that you have been for the past almost five fucking years at this point. Same with, um, yeah, as of like clinical director, like five days, seven days a week. Yeah. Or in a week, six days or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think there's something about like, um, I can't take ownership. Like sure, I might say this is, this is who we are, you know, like culture and like values. I, I might emphasize this is a must. Like these things have to be in place and there are like certain components of vision and what's important and then saying like, um, here is what it is, but I this wouldn't exist without having you specifically, I think in place as not only an integrator period, but also like. Distinctly Taylor as my integrator. Like this is what helps bring it all to life and ensures that it's running smoothly. So you should say we is what I'm trying to say, sorry, was the original question. How does my imposter syndrome continue to show up in my life? What is everywhere? Okay, I'm gonna switch. We have more questions, but we talk too much. So I'm gonna switch to the scenario 'cause I wanna do this. Alright, here we go. A practice owner notices that her leadership team has started asking more, where are we headed questions. Not in a panic, panicked way, excuse me. But with a subtle edge of curiosity and concern. She's still making decisions, still running meetings, still holding standards, but internally she feels less certain about the long-term narrative she used to rely on. Her integrator is focused on keeping things operationally tight, but even there, priorities feel slightly less anchored than before. Nothing is falling apart, but the old language no longer fits and she's hesitant to introduce new language before it feels true. She worries that naming the uncertainty could destabilize the team. Yet she also senses that pretending nothing has shifted might erode a trust in a quieter way. She's leading competently, but from a different internal posture than she's used to, and she's not sure yet what that posture is asking of her. There we go. That's the situation. I have thoughts immediately, but I wanna know what you think first. I mean, the very first thing that comes to me is just like, if this were, if this were someone on our team, I would wanna have a conversation with her about like, yes. What? Like what's, what are you feeling? I maybe I'm noticing this thing, or maybe I've heard you mention these things. Or, um, I think what often happens is like people will, I think it's this idea that there's a lot of truth in humor. People will, will use humor as a mask almost. And so I think my, there's no, this is such a unnecessary side quest, but you're good. Um, like, like maybe this person has made jokes about things, feeling like, I don't even know where we're going anymore. Or I don't even recog, you know, in passing. So maybe I've heard these things, whether it be an explicit, like, I feel concerned about this, or I'm curious about this, or maybe I'm just picking up on things. But I'd wanna have a conversation about like, um, what, what are you, like, what are you feeling? Like I'm getting the sense that you are, you have questions or that you may feel unclear about our direction. What is that like for you? Like, what is, what's coming up for you? Because ultimately I think the reaction could be, well, let me just explain everything to you. Lemme just tell you exactly where we're going. Um, let me reorient you to this thing. Or if, if it is in flux, and this person's picking up on that, almost like ringing my hands about like, I'm really sorry that you're in this, like, that We're all in this position of being really uncomfortable. I'm not gonna do any of that. I'm gonna figure out like where is this person maybe feeling disconnected and is that actually a result of our vision being in flux or, but like, what else might be at play for this person? Because it sounds like they're still, like, they're, they wanna be here. They're doing the things that they are sup supposed to be doing in terms of like fulfilling the duties of their job. Um, and noting that it's the practice owner that's feeling this way. Oh, yes. Yeah. So it's like, yeah, yeah. Just to clarify. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, I, I wanna, I wanna have a question about like, what's, I don't know, trying to get deeper into the heart of like, what's actually, what's going on for you? Because it feels like it, did something suddenly change? Or is there, you know, I worry about like, are you having space to do the grappling and the thinking about like, maybe the disconnect or the, I don't even know where we're going anymore. Are you actually tending to that? Mm-hmm. Or do you have space to tend to that? As me as the integrator, can I help? Can I, like, do we need to think about what is getting in the way of you being able to, to think about this more clearly or engage with what might be happening? Yeah, I think, sorry, I missed the practice owner piece. That was Oh, no, that's okay. This, to me, is like, there's two things. Um. I don't understand why you wouldn't just talk to your leadership team. Like I don't, and I don't know if that's a me thing or if that's like, it's, it's so, um, it's really rare that I'm not telling you all what's happening with me, like what I'm thinking, how I'm feeling about things related to the vision or the practice or the business, my plans and intentions about like the amount of time and space that it takes up in my life. And you know, like those are, I feel like I, not like normal, like they happen every time, but it feels really important to me that you all know. And also, I mean, I have a little bit of truth Tourettes anyway, but still you are the leadership team. Like you should. Why is it not open and honest between the owner and the leadership team? That's sort of like my first Yeah. Kind of thought, I guess. Yeah. And then my other is, um, why are they, they should be using EOS, like they, I think that there needs to be a structure where you have time and space carved out to assess the vision together and like actively process and actively grapple. And even at the most recent two day, you know, what happened is that we looked through all of the, you know, you review the VTO or the Vision and traction organizer we're looking at core values. And I was like, I don't know if this one works for me anymore. Mm-hmm. Like this language, the concept kind of, but it's like this isn't it? And it, it turned into a, it's a discussion, not necessarily a debate. 'cause I think we all work kind of on the same page, you know, but it's a discussion now we're, we're all collectively working to like, solve this, this thing so that everybody feels back on the same page again. Yeah. There's something about like, okay, so it doesn't seem like there's a structure in place to be able to actively assess vision. It almost feels like, oh, I have a lot of thoughts. Sorry. One is there's not the structure in place to actively assess something like vision. You know, and like along those lines, if there's not structure in place to actively assess this thing, it also seems like there's this implicit, um, belief or maybe like understanding that she not only is responsible for holding the vision, but also like ensuring that it unfolds in the ex exact, like in the direction. Mm-hmm. Instead of, I might say like, Hey, this is the general vision. You know, we workshop some finer details together and, and now it's our, like it's a collective mm-hmm. Thing. Yeah. And if something's off, it's not like it's personal. It's like, oh, I don't think this fits anymore. And now collaboratively we're discussing this thing again. And then same like the uncertainty piece. She worries that naming uncertainty could destabilize the team. I also don't relate to that. I think because of just everything we talked about earlier. Like I don't, I don't know, like there's a bunch of shit that I don't know and some like very precise questions are like one of those things. Like I don't know what this looks like in the future. This is like kind of broadly what I think. And also it might change as we go, like little, you know, again, some core things are probably relatively stable. So, um, that's something where I'm like, what? Just fucking say it to your leadership team. Like, yeah. If you have people that are destabilized by you saying you're not sure about something, then you probably have the wrong people on your leadership team. Yeah, that's a great point. I think I'm done now. I didn't mean to keep cutting you off or going No, you didn't. No, no, you didn't. Um, as you were talking, I, I, I also went back to the beginning of the prompt, which is, it makes me wonder, like, is this sense of uncertainty or, um, confusion, for lack of a better word, about direction? Is that internal or is that like I act Well, I thought we were good, but my leadership team is questioning. Oh, interesting. That comes up for me too. Like, was this something, is this like a, is the questioning from the leadership team a byproduct of like the practice owner's own internal sense of, you know, I, I feel less connected in with my vision, or is it a result of the team ultimately causing her to question? Because I think that can, that could be, I, I don't know. That could play a role too, like if people, if people don't understand, um. Is the practice owner taking on the responsibility? Um, maybe not unfairly of, of making sure the team understands, but misinterpreting that as it's not the right vision, or I'm not actually rooted in this thing, rather than, oh, we are rooted in this thing, but I, it hasn't been translated in the right way to this team. Um, so that, like, that, I, I wonder about that as well. Um, how much of this is like, internal for her, and it kind of goes, it, it goes along with what you're saying too, of like, what's the mechanism for reviewing this because mm-hmm. While the visionary is the one who drives it. Um, where's the collaborative process? Like, does, does the leadership team feel a sense of ownership over a shared ownership over this vision? Um, or is this kind of a top down situation and so they're not connected into it? They're, maybe they, that's why they don't understand it. Maybe they're not bought into it, and so then it feels like, I don't know, where are we going? Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. It feels more like I'm delegating, I'm delegating things to you instead of I'm passing over ownership to you. Yeah. Like I'm delegating all of this, which is, I, I don't wanna hold everything. Like if I, I, I don't think any one person can continue holding everything if they have a growing practice. Like it's not. It's not doable. I think the role of the integrator is to keep things operationally tight, but also, um, to be attuned to the visionary or to honestly even prompt the visionary and say either like, this isn't clear to me, or something feels off here. Like, is it clear to you? Do we, do we need to go back to the drawing board? Because I think, I mean, I, I can think of times when I've said like, does this still make sense for us? Mm-hmm. Like, it seems like, it seems like it might not make sense for you. So is this something we need to, like, do we need to put this on our meeting? Do we need to revisit this again? Mm-hmm. We thought we were clear, but maybe we're not. And so I think that's also part of the vi dynamic is honestly being in tune with each other. Mm-hmm. Like you can pick up on when I might be reluctant or hesitant about something and you'll, you'll bring it up if I don't, and I think the same can go the other way of saying like. I am not, like, for me, it shows up with you of like, you seem resistant to this. So like mm-hmm. Is this actually it? Do we need to talk more about this? Like, are you, are you in a situation where you're, this is veering a little bit, but are you in a situation where you're kind of forcing yourself down this path? Mm-hmm. When you're not actually sure that that's the path because you're afraid of maybe not for you again, but because you're afraid of destabilizing or because mm-hmm. Because we wanna be sensitive to not causing folks to have this perception of whiplash in Yeah. Yeah. We made this decision and actually now we're switching course psych. Yeah, it's actually one of the que It's funny 'cause one of the questions we didn't talk about, but I'm gonna say it out loud. Mm-hmm. And we don't need to necessarily get into it, but it feels like. Part of what you're saying, the, the question is what's emotionally harder? Admitting vision is shifting or tolerating, not knowing what comes next. And I feel like it's, it's not either of those things. Well, the hardest part in all of it is the impact on the team. Yeah. And so I'm thinking like, what's emotionally harder? It's, um, I don't like not knowing what comes next. Like, I, I don't like that space, but what is more difficult is, fuck, how's this gonna impact the people around me. Like, for me, the space, I feel really impatient and like, fuck, come on. You know, like if a sense of like, let's go, like, come on, nothing's moving fast enough, but I was by myself. It would primarily just be that. Yeah. Once we have people around us, then I feel a sense of, um, responsibility to them. Yes. And not like. You know, I mean, my tendency is emotional caretaking. And so, but even if I like dial that back, which I think I have over the years, it's still, I still feel a sense of responsibility. It feels like an accurate For sure. Yeah. After place. Yeah. It's an appropriate yes. Yes. Yeah. And so there's something about like, oh, but how are they gonna be like, oh gosh, okay. What's gonna, what's gonna, what's gonna happen for the team? And so, yeah. And I think that's where the, um, I think that's where the, just acknowledging the players at the table comes into play. Mm-hmm. Just acknowledging like that this might be the experience, but not shifting into the hand ringing the apolo, you know, the apologist. Yes. I'm, you know, I'm so sorry. Yes. Yeah, yeah. No groveling, no. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe not even It's what it's thousand qualifying statements. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, I think there's something about that over the past. Um, I don't know. It's really been, I don't, I don't even know over the past few months in particular that I. I don't know if it's starting progesterone. I don't know if it's accepting winter and like kind of resigning myself to pruning and like getting rid of shit. Like, it, it like, um, comfortable resignation, like I'm finally submitting to this process that needed to unfold. I don't have any idea what it is exactly, but I do feel like the tendency or the urge to emotionally caretake and sort of the hand rigging and the groveling, like all of that has like, like power down significantly. Like it just doesn't take up Yeah, the same. There's not as much energy there, like at all. It just sort of feels like, no, this is done. And I, I still, you know, my team is still important. I still wanna know if y'all are okay, but also I'm not gonna, I don't feel bad about something that has to happen. Yeah. I, you know, not to, um, not to toot our own horn, but I think that, that, that shift really came into focus for me when we, when we focused more on like, our dynamic and you stepping Yeah. Into the, to the visionary and me stepping into the integrator. Um, I think it, I don't know. I think it, I think when you feel more grounded and embodied in your role, um, there's less of the anxious energy that feels a need to caretake or apologize. Yeah, it's kind of like, I don't know. As you become more settled in your own identity, you become, as you know, as women, we tend to apologize for a lot of things. But as we get older and we become, we become more rooted in our sense of who we are and our. Our identities. I think a lot of us tend to stop apologizing and just mm-hmm. Show up. Yeah. Not, not disregarding the experience of people around us, but being able to recognize like, what's ours and what's theirs. And so I think that translates here of like, as we're more rooted and grounded in who we are and where we're going and what we're doing, it allows us to like, like you, I heard you say earlier, like, you trust yourself. It's like, we trust, we trust who we are, we trust what we're doing. Um, and we have this, this kind of checks and balances between us and amongst the leadership team. Mm-hmm. Um, that we can feel confident when we say, you know, maybe I'm making a tough decision. This is the decision we had to make, but we feel confident in that decision and I know it, it might result in some feelings and I wanna acknowledge that. And that's it. There's no, I'm sorry for that. There's no, you know, just as it, yeah. Yeah. That's just where we are, so, yeah. Anyway. Yeah. Okay. Anything else about the scenario? No, but she sounds really lonely that the practice owner. Oh God, yeah. That sounds like a lonely experience for her. Yeah. I can't even imagine, like, I think last time we talked it was sort of this recognition of how much you and the DCO, formerly CD DCO, you know, how much the leadership team roles like offset the impact of the weight and like the loneliness that I, of the weight of caring, you know, sort of everything with the practice that the higher level and then also like the loneliness. Yeah. And so, um, agreed. Yeah, I think there's something, I don't even think I thought about that, but yeah, I agree with you. I, my guess is that she probably does feel really. Lonely and maybe something about, um, not especially safe, even like to share with her team. With her team. Yeah. It's like especially with your leadership team. Especially with your integrator, like if anybody share with your fucking integrator. Yeah. And if that lack of trust is there, I would definitely wanna explore why is that a yes? Is that a vulnerability issue? Is that a trust issue? Is that a wrong person, wrong seat issue. Yeah. You know, I would, I would wanna explore that. Like if you felt like you couldn't share these things with your leadership team or with your integrator, that would be top of my list of things to examine. Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Okay. Final question. What feels, well, one of two questions you can pick, pick your poison. What feels most important to name after this conversation or what feels steadier or at least more honest than it did at the start. Um, what feels important to name? I think maybe that there's no moral value on a vision being solid or in flux. Um, it, it kind of is like what you were saying, like you ex you kind of expect it to be. And it's not a, a failure if, if that changes, like if your vision changes, if the direction changes. And actually I think that if you can reframe that as part of the process or inherent in the nature of visioning, then that can change your relationship with the change and how you can package that. Like, it's, it's almost like it's all about managing expectations. If you expect that this thing is going to be stable and steady forever, and then it's not, 'cause inevitably it's not going to be. Mm-hmm. Um, then there's gonna be this sense of like, moral failure. Like, I, I wasn't disciplined enough, or I didn't think it through enough, but, and, and then people are like, well, we can't trust you now because you said that this is the thing and now, and it's not the thing, but if you can package it or understand it from the perspective that it is something that's gonna change, um, then it just like relaxes everything. It gives you the freedom to, like I said, like you're allowed to change your mind. It gives you the freedom to change your mind or to reassess based on new facts or new data. Mm-hmm. And when you set that expectation up for the people around you, then inevitably when the thing does need to change or it does change, um, no one's surprised by that no one is disturbed or, um, distressed by that. Mm-hmm. It's just like, oh yeah, we, we were told to expect this. Here it is. Yeah. And here we will continue to be. Yeah. Um, yeah, I love that. I think that, you know, what's coming up for me right now, what feels most important to name after this conversation is also that the way that we are talking, the way that I'm talking, the way that we are talking, the way that leadership exists and operates at my practice is reflective of me. It's reflective of like inherent things or like the ways that I need to exist in the world. And so I think there's something to be said for if your values, if your internal sense of alignment, if your way of being in the world is that your comfortability only comes from having a charted course and following that directly, then I think my answer is like, you, do you boo boo? Like it's also fine. Like it's not like. Not everyone wants to meander. Exactly. Yeah. I think I don't want it to come across like, this is the only way to show up. And I, I don't think that we do, but this is the only way I can show up and this is the only way that, this is it for us. Like this is it for the group, this is it for us, this is it for me. Like this is how we operate, you know? I don't think there's anything wrong with it. And also, if you are not that same person and your practice operates very differently, well one, you might not actually be listening to this podcast at all because just by nature of how I slash we are showing up, you, we don't operate in the same spaces. This is, yeah. Like, no, no, no. That's not, I don't want that answer. Uh, two, it sort of doesn't matter. I think that the best leaders are, and maybe this is my own bias, but I don't even know about the best leaders. I think that leadership is about an accurate reflection of an honest and self-assessing version of yourself. So like knowing myself and being honest about what is doable or not where I need to grow, where I'm like pretty competent. And then like, trying to express that through leadership in the form of even like the systems and the structures that are in place in the form of the people that are employed. Like, it, it doesn't need to look like us. It needs to look like the best version of yourself in the people around you who want that in a leader. You know, some people are gonna want somebody who's very much like black, white, like much more rigid. I don't know. Yeah. I hate saying that word. I don't mean that in a bad way, but Go ahead. Sorry. Um, no, it makes me think of, um, there one of my favorite books that is kind of universally reviled in the like book world. Um, because people say it's derivative and it's very, yeah, it seems insightful when it's not really, but I fucking love it. It's called The Alchemist, Essentially, uh, it's just a beautiful, it's a beautiful story and I won't get into that, but my high school Latin teacher, whom I adored, gave me a copy of that book for my high school graduation, and he wrote an inscription, and the inscription said, find your alchemy. Treasure the formula. Oh, I love that. And I, I mean, it's like, it's, I where, what, like, I don't know how many years post high school now, but it stuck with me, you know, gave me that to me when I was 18 and I'm 30, about to be 33. So a lot of years. Mm-hmm. Um, it's, and it's that idea of like, you gotta, you find yours, you find your alchemy. Mm-hmm. And then treasure the formula. Stick to that formula. So it's like you find what works for you and that's what you've done. We have found something that works for us and, and we like, man, do I treasure that formula? Yeah. Same. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That feels like the, like best way of getting at what I was trying to say. Much better, much more spot on, actually. Visionary versus integrator. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Here's the actual condensed version of something. Yeah. Yeah. All right. That's it. Anything else, t dog, before we hop off? That's it for me. All right. All right. All right. Okay. For everyone else, wanna say thank you for spending some time with us on this new recurring segment, the VI table. There's two takeaways here for you. One is that everything I do, whether it's a. any offerings related to consulting, masterminds, insights or thoughts, sharing about a podcast is all done through my email list. So join that if you wanna stay up to date with anything happening. And then also subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already, or send this episode to somebody who you think needs to hear it. That's all I got. I will see you all on the next episode. Thanks. Bye. Catch you on the flippity flip. Catch you on the flippity flip. Bye.