Latest / Startup Dad / Things No One Told You About Parenting After Divorce With Sol Kennedy | Dad of 2

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Things No One Told You About Parenting After Divorce With Sol Kennedy | Dad of 2 · Startup Dad

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Especially the court system can get you drawn into the conflict.
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This desire to win, the desire to make right.
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You know, your attorney might even say, well, you can go after
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this and this, and you should do this, and you'll, you'll win.
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And you know, at the end of the day, there is no winning.
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And just if you remind yourself of that, that sometimes it's okay to let
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the other side win, if it meant that you could spend an extra set of weeks
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with your kids, right, just in presence rather than in the court system.
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Welcome to Startup Dad, the podcast.
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We dive deep in the lives of dads who are also leaders in the
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world of startups and business.
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I'm your host, Adam Fishman.
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Parenting can be hard enough, but navigating divorce and
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separation, then co-parenting.
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Is something people usually don't want to discuss.
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To talk about life as a co-parent, I sat down with Saul Kennedy.
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Saul is the founder of Best Interest, a product he's built
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to help co-parent navigate the messiness of that relationship.
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He was inspired by his own challenges with co-parenting.
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Saul is a serial founder who is built and sold multiple companies.
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He's also been a head of product at Dropcam, product manager at Google,
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and an angel investor in companies like Coinbase, GitLab, and Instacart.
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In addition to being a serial entrepreneur, he's also a single
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halftime dad of two kids and a co-parent.
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In our conversation, we spoke about navigating divorce and co-parenting,
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important lessons that Saul has learned from that experience.
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The emotional rollercoaster of halftime parenting as a single
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dad and his experience taking time off to be a full-time dad
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when his daughter was very young.
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Saul shared a mistake he made as a parent and how that experience has
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helped him grow into the dad He is today.
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I hope you enjoy today's conversation with Saul Kennedy.
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Welcome, Saul Kennedy to startup Dad, Saul, it's a pleasure
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having you here with me today.
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Thanks for joining me.
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Thank you, Adam.
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It's great to be here.
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So for folks who don't know much about you professionally, we're obviously
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gonna get into your parenting journey, but tell me a little bit about you and
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what you do for work and what you've been doing for the last couple of decades.
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Yeah, I've always been an entrepreneur and that's how I
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identify, is I start companies.
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And I started my first company when I was 15, kind of did that
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whole thing, and I've always been attracted to creating software.
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So my first app was a popup on your Windows or Mac computer.
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Way back in the old days on startup, and it would be an inspirational
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message that would pop up.
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And that's my career is I love starting companies.
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I love starting from scratch, learning how to do it all myself,
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and then growing a team out of that.
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And so, yeah, that's what's brought me to today, being a dad
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and also running best interest.
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Cool.
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I can't wait to talk about best interest.
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This is gonna be really, really fun and a unique conversation we've
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never had on this show before.
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So tell me about your family now.
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You are a single dad.
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I am, yeah.
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I have two kids.
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They're six and eight.
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Great little kiddos.
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We live in Northern California and yeah, I am a halftime dad, so I have
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custody, joint custody with their mother, and I have them half the time
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and typically during the weeks we split it 2, 2 5, which means they're kind of
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shifting back and forth during the week.
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And then the, in the summertime we do week on, week off.
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That's how we split up the custody.
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And I have a, a wonderful partner, Louise, who's really actively
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involved in the kids and helping out and yeah, that's the family.
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How old
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were your kids when you went through the divorce process?
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And tell me a little bit about that experience.
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Yeah, so the process of our marriage unraveling started pre covid, and
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fortunately in hindsight, actually a week before the lockdowns of Covid
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was when we decided to separate.
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And it was definitely a challenging time to be shifting from being married
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to then being single and not being able to meet anyone, not really
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being able to socialize, having lockdowns negotiating, how do you
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manage kids when there are lockdowns?
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That sort of thing.
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It was definitely an intense time to be learning the ropes of co-parenting.
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Yeah.
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And your kids were, I mean, pretty young then, right?
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Like if I, yeah, if I'm thinking about back like five years ago,
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they were like one or two and three.
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One and a half,
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and three and a half.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So how do you have that conversation with kids at that age?
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Like they understand.
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So little it would seem, so I'm curious, like what is that,
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like, how do you approach that with like really little kids?
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Yeah.
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Or how did you, I guess?
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Yeah, that's a really good question.
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And yeah, I don't have all the answers for sure.
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You know, but what's interesting when they're getting started on
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this journey themselves so young, it just becomes their normal, you know?
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And we kept it really simple.
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Daddy's getting a new house, mommy's getting a new house and we're moving
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and then we're gonna each have houses and you're gonna go back.
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It was very simple and it just, like I said, it became their normal.
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And these kids are so flexible, you know, I think divorce is hard on kids for sure.
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But in the case of our kids.
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They're like very just okay with this dynamic.
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They don't complain about it and they just have their systems.
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And what's also really interesting is that their relationship is even
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closer than they are with each of their parents because they're always
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spending time together, transitioning.
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And I really love that, that they're such good buddies in this process.
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Yeah, that's sort of interesting that the only constant for them is each other.
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Yeah.
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So, yeah.
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Wild.
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Yeah, it really is.
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So you went through this divorce process and now you're co-parenting.
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And you mentioned to me that co-parenting and the reason you've built this company
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best interest co-parenting has been more challenging, more challenging
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even than the divorce process.
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So tell me a little bit about that and what have you learned in
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navigating this process so far?
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Yeah.
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You know, I never thought that I would.
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Get divorced, I don't think anyone ever does.
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Of course.
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And facing the idea of divorce and co-parenting, I was really terrified,
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you know, about starting over.
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And the divorce process actually in hindsight and now knowing what
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I know about what other people go through, ours was pretty simple.
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Like you mentioned.
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It was fairly straightforward.
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We mediated most of it, and so I have a lot.
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I thank us both for being able to take the high road in that situation.
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Afterwards though the co-parenting was the most challenging thing for
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us, and what ended up happening was that I noticed we were just constantly
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getting engaged with one another, especially around communication.
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This was actually when I started getting back into dating.
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My first girlfriend at the time made just this nice, gentle
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acknowledgement and observation that I was texting my ex a lot.
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Mm-hmm.
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And I, at that time thought that was normal, you know, to be texting
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five to 10 to 15 times a day.
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And then I realized actually that's not the right way.
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It's not the right way to move on.
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There's a certain amount of communication that's necessary, obviously as a
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co-parent and there's some that isn't.
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And a lot of times the messages were taking me outta the process of being
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a dad, you know, being present with my kids and also moving on with my life.
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And so that.
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Became the spark, as you mentioned, of the business that I'm building
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now, which is helping co-parents communicate with one another.
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Yeah.
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And you described to me just the, this sort of adversarial system that exists.
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Tell me what you meant by that.
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Well, yeah, so the family court system, I'm not a big fan of it.
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As a co-parent, I have experienced what I would describe as the underbelly of the
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family court system where a very, very simple matter became incredibly complex.
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I was on the stand for many hours in a situation that really could have just
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been solved with a simple conversation.
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And in the family court system, it's rooted in the court systems of this
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country and that there are winners and losers and there's good and bad,
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and we have to assign blame and we have to decide who is right and.
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When it comes to families and kids, honestly there are no
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winners in this type of battle.
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And so I ended up walking away having won the decision, but feeling like I
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had lost because it was such a time consuming and awful process for everybody.
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And so some of the impetus and the desire and the prayer of my current company is
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that we can save other co-parents from going down that path and ending up in the
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arms of the family court system, which I don't think always protects people.
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Yeah.
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Oh, I hadn't even thought about that.
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That you know, we have this system that's de that's really designed
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for punishment and we're trying to figure out something that's supposed
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to be equitable and like, you know, it's partnership even in separation.
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And so that's really challenging.
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Yeah.
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And there are no criminals here, right?
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We're all trying to do the best we can.
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We're all trying to be the best parents we know how to be.
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And you know, really at the end of the day, a system like this
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takes people away from their kids.
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Yeah.
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And in the court system, you hear the term best interest, always referring to
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what is in the best interest of the kids.
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And so when I was coming up with the name for my business, I thought, oh,
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that would be a pretty good name.
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To remind people that it's really about the kids.
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Yeah.
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Oh, that's really interesting.
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I was wondering how you came up with that name.
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That's good.
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If you had like one piece of advice having navigated the court system and
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just generally with co-parenting kind of broadly, what would you tell someone who's
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like going into this journey themselves?
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You know, learning how to take the high road and also specifically
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learning how to drop the rope.
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And I'm not always the best at this, but.
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Especially the court system can get you drawn into the conflict, this desire
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to win, the desire to make right.
11:08
You know, your attorney might even say, well, you can go after this and this and
11:12
you should do this and you'll, you'll win.
11:14
And you know, at the end of the day, there is no winning.
11:17
And just if you remind yourself of that, that sometimes it's okay to let the other
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side win if it meant that you could spend an extra set of weeks with your kids.
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Right.
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Just in presence rather than in the court system.
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Yeah.
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So I think that that is the key is just learning how to not win
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and to just allow and accept
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and move on.
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It sounds like just not even getting into the battle that the
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court system or the lawyers want you to have is a good piece of
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advice too.
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Oh, totally.
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And you know, that's, uh, again, that's just really what I believe
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best interests purpose is, is that for me, it started with.
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Communication breakdowns and, you know, blaming each other and getting defensive,
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and then, you know, 30 texts or later you're, you're up in arms, right?
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And, and that's not helpful for anyone.
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But learning how to communicate effectively with one another
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to ensure that your message gets across that conflicts are
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deescalated, that can really help.
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Because in a co-parenting dynamic, it's a such a weird relationship.
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If you've never been a co-parent, you don't really know how
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uniquely challenging this is.
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Here is this person that you literally decided you don't wanna be in relationship
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with any longer for whatever reason.
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You know, there might have been something really traumatic too, in that there
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might even have been emotional abuse or whatnot, and yet now you're forced
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into a relationship with them that.
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Isn't any better.
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You both are the same people and now you're having to navigate and make
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really important decisions, highly emotional decisions with one another.
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It's one of the most challenging human relationships that
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I think anyone can have.
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Yeah.
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Wow.
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That framing is really interesting.
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You, like, you've knowingly decided that we don't wanna
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spend time together anymore.
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Yeah.
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And yet you have to, right?
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Yeah.
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You like have to negotiate and navigate all this stuff that's challenging.
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So you're a si, you're a single dad, halftime parent.
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Tell me about that experience.
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What kind of feelings, like, what's that like?
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Yeah.
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I appreciate that question.
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You know, it's a unique thing to be a halftime parent.
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You have this experience or I have this experience of.
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When I'm with my kids, especially when it's just me and it's two on one,
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honestly, that can be really challenging.
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The ages, my kids are like, it's getting a little bit better,
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but man, there's so many demands and it's overwhelming at times.
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And so a lot of times I have this feeling like, oh, I need
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a breather, I need a break.
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I need some adult simulation.
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You know, especially during covid.
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It's like, where are my adults?
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I'm surrounded by kids, and gosh, I need a break.
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And then you get your break and you're like, oh man, I really miss my kids.
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Oh, this is awful.
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Like I can't see them, I can't talk to them.
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I have to pretend like they don't exist in a way.
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That's hard.
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It's weird to go from this.
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It's like a black and white kind of experience of, okay, now you're single,
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you're back to hanging out with adults.
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Oh no, you're back to being a dad, you know, and back and forth.
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Oh, the kids are sick now.
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The schedule's adjusted.
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You know?
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Yeah.
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So it can be really, it can be really challenging.
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It can be really lonely to be doing that.
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You know, post Covid, obviously it's changing, but we live in a
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culture that we're not tribal.
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We're all living in our own homes, and we're all doing the parenthood
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thing pretty much solo, unless we're making extra effort to get
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everyone together and do play dates.
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So it can be pretty isolating to have kids.
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Yeah.
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That.
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What you described is like a rollercoaster ride of like, I'm
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on, oh, I'm off, I'm off, I'm off.
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I'm on, I'm off.
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What a wild feeling.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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There's like a splitting that happens too, where like I almost feel myself putting
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on the daddy cap when it's like that day I, I know that they're gonna come and
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my personality shifts subtly, you know?
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Yeah.
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Probably even hormones get ready, you know, like I'm ready to get in my
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daddy mode from being a single guy.
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Yeah.
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The thing too that you mentioned is, you know, six and eight, you know,
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it's not newborns so you know, you're not changing diapers and things like
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that, but six and eight year olds, and I think you have two boys, right?
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A girl and boy.
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Boy girl.
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A girl and a boy, okay.
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Yeah.
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But still since that age, you have to be on all the time when they're around, like
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they wanna do stuff, which is amazing.
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You know, I hear stories about like the teenage years when they don't
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want to see you at all, but it's also.
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Like, I think it's okay to also admit like, it's also exhausting.
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Oh yeah.
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I wanna admit those sorts of things because, you know, I know it's not
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normal to, you know, like a lot of people won't admit to being bored when they're
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around their kids, but honestly it can be really, you know, boring to keep
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playing the same game over and over again.
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That can be really hard.
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You know, six and eight is a unique time where especially my
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8-year-old, she's starting to be a lot more independent, you know?
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And like, she dresses herself now and that's been a while.
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But, you know, she'll get up on her own.
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She'll come in on her own, like there's kind of this independence.
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She'll be doing her art projects, she's a great artist and she has
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her own life that's developing.
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Whereas my son, he's still very much in, like, he wakes up, he comes to me,
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he wants to play a game, he wants, he's like dictating what we're gonna do next.
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And as his dad, I'm learning, well, how do I. Set boundaries with him so
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that I ensure that I have my own time.
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And there's also this guilt of being a co-parent knowing that, well, actually
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I will be getting my own time because you're going back to your mom's today.
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So then I feel guilty even setting those boundaries.
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So that's also an interesting aspect of being a co-parent, is how
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do you maintain those boundaries
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with your kids?
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So it's hard enough to maintain boundaries with a 6-year-old and then, you know,
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he doesn't get to see you all the time.
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And so it's probably like very intensely, like, I wanna do all
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the things with you right now.
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Have you developed any strategies for that or stumbled through figuring this out?
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Stumbled through is a great way to put it.
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I think, you know, in terms of being a dad, I.
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I like to just be really calm with them and I'm just, I'm
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generally a pretty grounded guy.
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That's just the way I show up in life and that extends to my kids.
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And you know, sometimes you have this experience as a co-parent that
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sometimes the other house is a black box.
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You don't really know what's going on per se, depending on the communication level.
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And then they just arrive and then they're just filled with energy and you hear a lot
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about like, oh, they come back so crazy from their dad's house or their mom's
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house and what's going on over there.
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Sometimes the kids are just really excited, you know, they're really
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excited to see you again after.
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And that's the way they're expressing their excitement is
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by being absolutely bonkers.
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And so for me it's about creating those rituals.
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So I do a, a little ritual with them when they come back home
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where, yeah, it's a little woo woo, but I'm a kind of a woo guy.
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We do a little ritual where we gather and they each pick out a crystal in
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our object from, you know, the room.
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And we get together and we just talk a little bit about what
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happened and you know, what we're gonna do the rest of that week.
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And as a way to just kind of ground into each other, welcome them back, and
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then, you know, say you're here now.
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I think that's important to have that ritual so they are able to
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like say, okay, we're here now.
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We're all
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together.
19:06
It sounds a little bit like I. The circle time that they do in school to kind of
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set their intentions for the day and like to talk about what are we gonna do today?
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You're doing it, you know, what are we gonna do this week?
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Or whatcha are gonna do while you're here?
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But that seems to work pretty well in school, so.
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Totally.
19:24
Yeah.
19:24
Yeah,
19:24
that's a very similar approach.
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And I also just, you know, when it comes to being with them, I
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just really like to be patient.
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You know, they might be going through a lot that I'm not even aware of.
19:40
Right.
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And so it's about being patient with them and taking things slow and
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just listening to what they wanna do and just being there with them.
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That is one of the benefits of being a co-parent, is that I do have the benefit
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of being able to be a little bit more on, because I've had sometimes a week off.
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Where I've been able to, you know, really focus on me time and renewing
20:04
myself, and then I can show up with my full energy and I'm not so worn down.
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So that is another benefit of being co-parent.
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I actually, I wish that more married couples would give each other time off.
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I think that would be very beneficial to marriage to allow each individual
20:22
to remain independent from their kids sometimes, because it can be
20:26
a slog when it's the two of you all the time with the kids all the time.
20:31
Yeah.
20:32
Yeah.
20:32
I am curious, you were in the fairly fortunate position of being able to take
20:39
some time off to be a full-time dad.
20:41
Oh my gosh.
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For, for a period of time.
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Yeah.
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And then you went back and started a company, which is like the polar opposite.
20:49
So I'm curious about both ends of that spectrum.
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Why did you decide to be a full-time dad or maybe.
20:56
That decision was made for you and then, you know, what made
21:00
you take the leap back into
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company building?
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Gosh, I mean, the company building first, just to say, I mean,
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it's a bit of a compulsion and we'll return to that, right?
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And just to be honest here, but the taking the time off, you know, the
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way that my career had gone, I've always been a small startup guy.
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That's what I really like doing.
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It's the most fun for me being able to put out the fires and put on the hats and
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not really worry about politics and stuff.
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Well, I ended up through an acquisition and then another acquisition at a
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big company at Google, and I thought going into it, this is my dream.
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I'm at big company, great healthcare, and sure enough, you know, great
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healthcare, I meant kids and all that.
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Like it felt like the right time and, but I really didn't like the job.
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It wasn't my cup of tea.
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Like it was very political as a lot of companies are.
21:52
You know, no dis in Google.
21:53
They're a great company.
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But it was difficult for me to be in that environment.
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I was not being an entrepreneur in that moment in my career, and
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I've always known that I wanted to be a dad always since I was a kid.
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I just had that dad vibe.
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Just always had that.
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So when I knew I wanted and I was ready to be a dad.
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I knew I wanted to jump in and have that experience and just do it wholeheartedly
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like I do all my other projects, like make that my startup basically was the idea.
22:25
Yeah.
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So I decided to quit my job after my daughter was born, you know,
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eight and a half years ago now.
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And I thought that was gonna be maybe a year sabbatical, and then I
22:36
was gonna get back, get re-inspired, and that inspiration didn't come.
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You know, I, I was so focused on being a dad, that was my inspiration and honestly
22:47
very overwhelming being a full-time dad.
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I developed some very good empathy towards people that choose to do this towards my
22:56
mom who did this for my whole childhood.
22:59
It's a lot of work, it's very demanding, and yet I wouldn't take it back.
23:03
All the memories that I had just being with her during the day and
23:07
like having that connection of, I. Being able to see her wake up in
23:12
all of her stages of development.
23:13
It was just, it was so beautiful to have experienced that, and I didn't expect
23:18
that that would become another kid.
23:21
And then divorce and then co-parenting, you know, as it went.
23:25
And that became like its own midlife crisis.
23:28
And then through that process of co-parenting and seeing the
23:32
challenges there, feeling so challenged myself Also knowing
23:37
that deep down, I'm a technologist.
23:39
I love technology, I love building, and knowing that I was a little rusty, you
23:45
know, from all those years of just being a dad, I decided though that it was my duty
23:52
to wipe off the dust and get back in there and solve this problem with software.
24:00
Yeah.
24:00
And you
24:00
did the.
24:02
I don't wanna say the classic thing that founders do, but you did
24:05
the thing where you're like, I am experiencing this problem myself.
24:09
I know that probably plenty of other people are experiencing this problem.
24:13
I'm gonna build something that helps people alleviate this problem.
24:17
Totally.
24:18
And you know, I would say I've not ever had quite this experience
24:23
of feeling so mission-driven.
24:26
Like it's, to me, this feels like I've found a vocation.
24:30
I really wanna help co-parents in these situations cope and find peace.
24:36
It's like through my core, I've done startups before and I felt really good
24:42
about what I built, but this is the first time where I saw a need, I heard
24:46
what people needed, and then I built it.
24:48
And I feel so inspired every day to wake up and.
24:51
Keep building for them.
24:52
Yeah.
24:53
And the mission here, like these are like very real human problems that you're
24:57
solving, like, and you live through it.
24:59
And so it almost feels like more meaningful as a result
25:04
maybe.
25:04
And Adam too.
25:05
I would say that for me it was a hidden problem before I became a co-parent.
25:10
I had no idea.
25:11
In fact, honestly, I think a lot of people who are married don't
25:15
want to even think about divorce.
25:17
Right?
25:17
They don't want to even talk to divorce people or interact with
25:21
them because they don't want to admit that could be a possibility.
25:24
Mm-hmm.
25:24
And so what I am trying to do with this company is say, Hey, you know what?
25:29
Like this is a real problem that people are facing.
25:32
This is a really difficult relationship and there are not a
25:35
lot of good solutions out there.
25:37
And so, yeah, I'm jumping in and helping bring light to what can be a really dark
25:43
and lonely situation for a lot of people.
25:46
So this.
25:46
This is a little bit of a funny question here, but have you onboarded
25:50
your own family onto best interest, or is that like a bridge too far?
25:56
I, I'm gonna keep that one a trade secret.
25:59
Uh, okay.
26:02
I can only imagine how that conversation would go.
26:05
So we'll just move on.
26:07
What are some of the most surprising things that you've discovered as a dad?
26:11
Oh,
26:12
wow.
26:12
What a good question.
26:14
You know, I think the first one is just how challenging it is.
26:19
I think I.
26:20
Everyone on some level walks into it thinking, oh, I'll be great.
26:25
I'll do it better.
26:26
And then you become a dad and you realize, oh man, this is bringing up a lot of shit.
26:33
Oh, wow.
26:34
Like, so the things that I didn't heal from my childhood at this
26:37
age are gonna start coming up.
26:39
It's almost a magical portal of healing being a dad, especially when you're
26:44
really open towards and oriented towards personal growth and healing.
26:49
It can be such a rich and challenging experience to, to become a dad.
26:55
You know?
26:55
And I think, like I mentioned earlier, one of the things I didn't
27:00
anticipate was the loneliness.
27:01
That it is being a parent, let alone a co-parenting parent.
27:09
And I just, I really love advocating for a shift in the way that we look at, I.
27:16
Parenting and co-parenting towards more of a tribe and more of a community,
27:22
bringing more people together to help out.
27:24
I think kids benefit when grandparents participate, friends participate,
27:30
other people, neighbors, right?
27:32
When they can look up to multiple adults and they're not just relying on
27:35
one parent for all of their attention.
27:38
I think that that is really beneficial.
27:41
I
27:41
had
27:42
someone else on the show who said one of the most isolating places
27:45
on the planet is being a dad on the playground with your kids.
27:50
'cause you're often the only dad there.
27:53
Or you know, you're, especially if it's during the work week, you know?
27:58
Oh my God.
27:59
So a, a anyways, that, that resonated with me, what you just said about
28:02
the like kind of loneliness and the, you know, the isolation.
28:06
I'll echo that.
28:06
Yeah.
28:07
I think especially early on when my kids are really young and.
28:11
You know, going out to the playground specifically, it was challenging as a
28:17
dad because there's this really weird subtext in our culture about men and
28:23
children and relationships and like questioning and doubting and that's so,
28:28
it's so problematic because the dads I know are really good dads and they just
28:34
want help and they wanna be involved and the kids benefit from their involvement.
28:39
And I've noticed that over the years as a dad who shows up field trips,
28:44
you know, other places where other kids are, they gravitate towards me
28:49
probably because their dad probably is working or not as involved.
28:53
Right.
28:53
Like they feel that energy and they're like, oh, you know, kids just
28:57
really, they wanna have a involved dad, they wanna have an involved mom.
29:01
They wanna be part of that.
29:03
Yeah.
29:04
You
29:04
mentioned a minute or so ago about, you know, having kids
29:09
brings up a whole bunch of.
29:11
Stuff about your relationship with your own parents and things like that.
29:15
I, I can certainly appreciate that myself.
29:17
But I think one of the things you also mentioned to me is that your kids helped
29:21
you heal relationships with your parents.
29:26
So tell me a little bit more about that.
29:28
Well, I mean, you talk about it like past tense and I would say
29:32
that it's an ongoing process.
29:34
Um, you know, it, it brings up a lot and I don't know what this life is all about.
29:42
Still trying to figure it out.
29:43
Probably will never figure it out.
29:44
But one of the orientations that I have now that I didn't when I was younger, is
29:49
that I believe that life is about growth.
29:52
I think that, you know, we've come here on a journey and we're learning things and
29:57
we're learning things about ourselves and we're trying to get stronger and better,
30:01
and we're navigating relationships.
30:03
I know one of the themes in my life has been how to unravel my own codependency
30:08
and stick up for myself more, to shine my life rider to be more visible.
30:13
I was a very shy kid and you know, very codependent.
30:18
I'm still unraveling codependency and my kids have really helped me
30:23
because the one thing that having kids does is it does force you
30:28
into connection with your parents.
30:31
Because they wanna be involved and they're great with the kids.
30:36
They might have been really challenging parents not saying
30:39
anything about mine, but they might have been really challenging.
30:41
But they wanna be great grandparents and usually for whatever
30:45
reason, that's how it works out.
30:47
They're great grandparents and so you want them to be around, you need the help,
30:51
and so they create this kind of forced bond where anything that's unresolved
30:56
in that relationship between you and your parents is being brought to light
30:59
and you're having to work on that so that it's not constantly triggering you.
31:03
It's wild how that works.
31:05
Yeah.
31:05
I've had some other
31:05
conversations with folks where they're like, you know.
31:09
My own parents when I was a kid, you know, they were okay, but like wow.
31:15
As grandparents, they're like off the charts like what clicks, you
31:20
know, when they become grandparents.
31:22
So I don't wanna say that that's your lived experience, but it sounds like
31:25
you got some great grandparents now.
31:27
So, oh, they
31:27
are the best.
31:29
They are so into that position and it's such a sacred position, like being
31:34
able to jump in, relieve the parent for a little bit, and just provide a
31:40
very different experience for the kids.
31:43
You know, just being super present as a parent, you're filled with all these
31:48
other obligations and things in your mind and things you gotta do and your work.
31:52
And especially as a startup dad, man, there's a lot going on up there,
31:56
but they don't have that right.
31:57
So they're able to just be really present and just get down on the
32:01
floor with them and just be with them.
32:03
And that's such a beautiful gift that they can give to their grandkids.
32:07
Yeah.
32:08
So you have now an eight and a 6-year-old.
32:11
Yeah.
32:11
And I want to get in the time machine for a second and go back to, you know,
32:18
before your oldest was born, right?
32:20
Before you had your first kid and you bump into younger Saul in the time
32:25
machine, which I think is actually not allowed based on the laws of
32:28
physics, but let's say you do.
32:30
What would you tell your younger self about being a dad?
32:33
What advice would you give yourself?
32:35
Are you sure about this?
32:40
I mean, I would never take back becoming a dad that I think that it's
32:46
important to not take it for granted as something that everyone has to do,
32:53
or it's something that you gotta tick the box and it changes your life.
32:58
Like becoming a dad.
33:01
It is a new chapter no matter what you do.
33:03
Like your focus changes for me.
33:07
It was pronounced because I decided to become a full-time dad.
33:11
Right?
33:11
So like that, it's even different than having a career and also being a dad.
33:16
But even when you're still employed, like you suddenly realize,
33:21
oh, it's not about me anymore.
33:24
Like biologically or whatever.
33:26
You start being much more oriented towards their life, what they're up to,
33:31
and realizing that if it really came down to it, you would absolutely protect
33:38
them and allow your life to be taken so that they could like, that just becomes
33:43
almost overnight and that shift is such a big shift in the way you view the world.
33:50
And so would I say don't do it.
33:53
No, but just like it's a big deal.
33:56
It's an important decision.
33:57
And just make sure you, you think it through.
34:00
Appreciate the gravity of the situation for all of its, you know,
34:04
challenges and opportunities and excitement, but appreciate it.
34:08
Totally.
34:09
Yeah.
34:10
What about in the transition from one to two kids?
34:13
Like what have you learned as a dad?
34:16
What would you tell yourself about maybe what you do differently with
34:21
your oldest kid than you know you did?
34:24
Yeah.
34:25
Well, there's definitely a few things.
34:27
I think going from one to two in terms of like daddy responsibility,
34:33
it's not two x, it's like 20 x, like it's, it's ridiculous.
34:37
It just becomes so much harder, but.
34:40
Also, one of the things that it taught me was that you just
34:44
don't sweat the small stuff.
34:46
I look now at products that are sold to first time parents and I'm
34:51
like, oh, that's, hmm, that's awful.
34:53
Like you see those baby cameras that are attached to the bassinet
34:57
and it's like $2,000 and you're gonna use it for three months.
35:00
And yet it's being sold like hotcakes because they're selling to the fear.
35:05
And when you're a first time parent, especially when you hold your child for
35:10
the first time and you look in their eyes, you're like, oh my, this is important
35:16
and you're ready to buy anything.
35:18
And also, I remember just being terrified at every noise.
35:24
It was crazy.
35:25
Like she, her just her breathing, I thought, there
35:28
must be something wrong there.
35:29
There must be I, we have to call the doctor.
35:32
You know, like I was so hyper-focused.
35:35
Common experience.
35:35
By the time my son was born, like I had been through the ringer, I'd
35:38
known that everything is totally okay.
35:42
Kids are very resilient.
35:43
They're built like a tank.
35:45
It's fine.
35:46
They're gonna survive through pretty much anything.
35:47
Yeah.
35:48
And so for him, like obviously that was a lot easier.
35:50
I. And I didn't buy all that crap that you don't need.
35:54
Yeah.
35:55
You said two things
35:56
there that I really appreciate.
35:57
One is the loud breathing is a sign of imminent death, and I just remember when
36:04
my dau, my, my oldest is also a girl.
36:06
Just like the noises that babies make when they're sleeping.
36:09
They're like grunting and like, and they're totally fine.
36:12
It's just very normal, but they're not quiet.
36:14
They're like, you know, they're like, no, what I would imagine like an 80-year-old
36:18
man is making the noises of in his sleep.
36:20
So that's one.
36:21
And then the idea that, you know, the kids are gonna be okay, I always tell
36:25
people like, ah, kids are pretty much made of rubber, you know, they'll be fine.
36:30
Totally fine.
36:30
Yeah.
36:31
And second kids get a different treatment because of that.
36:34
You know, there's, I think a lot more flexibility that they're given.
36:38
There's maybe even less expectations.
36:40
You're kind of, in some ways, overall that stuff, and it's good and it's bad.
36:45
It's just a different experience.
36:47
Yeah.
36:47
So you talked about, you know.
36:50
Life being about growth, personal growth and learning.
36:53
And I'm curious if you've developed any frameworks or guardrails for parenting
37:00
or like how you've grown in thinking through what it means to be a dad.
37:05
Yeah.
37:05
A lot of parents, when they approach parenting, they do the Gogos and Gagas
37:11
and they like kind of, I've always wanted to treat my kids with the same level of
37:17
respect as if they were adults, right?
37:20
I think that we talk down to our kids sometimes thinking that maybe they
37:24
don't understand or they're not ready.
37:26
And I'm not necessarily saying like use big words and be eloquent, but I just
37:31
really wanna respect them and respect their personhood in the same way that I
37:37
would with an adult, if that makes sense.
37:41
And.
37:42
In addition to that, I tend to like allowing them to do it on their own when I
37:48
can and to even give them responsibilities that are way above their pay grade,
37:54
because I think that's really fun.
37:57
I'm not afraid of giving my kids a hammer or a power drill, you know?
38:03
I figure if there's really a problem then you know, we can take care
38:07
of it and I watch them closely.
38:09
But I think I just love seeing the eyes of my daughter light up when
38:14
she knows that she can hold the drill that daddy uses to build something.
38:19
I think that it just gives her like this added weight and responsibility
38:24
and like feeling of freedom.
38:27
My kids are amazed by power tools.
38:29
That's really.
38:30
That's
38:30
really a thing I've learned.
38:31
Yeah.
38:32
I mean, I haven't always been a builder.
38:35
Actually, that was something that evolved after my daughter was born.
38:38
I was always a coder and sat behind my computer and I had
38:43
this experience actually one day of wanting to get a garden bed.
38:47
We were living in San Francisco at the time, so the idea of having a garden
38:50
was like this exotic, crazy idea.
38:54
And so I went down to Home Depot and I said, do you have any garden beds?
38:57
And I said, oh, you know, like it looks like they're sold out, right?
39:00
So he said, oh, well it's just wood.
39:04
And I'm like, what do you.
39:05
Oh, oh, it's just wood.
39:08
Like I could build it myself.
39:09
There was, there was something that clicked that I didn't
39:11
realize I didn't have to buy it.
39:12
Of my kit.
39:13
Yeah.
39:13
I could just build it.
39:15
And so I have since then, built a lot of really great things.
39:19
I love working with my hands.
39:21
I've developed quite a tool collection and I love passing that down to my
39:26
kids, knowing that they can build it themselves, they can repair it themselves.
39:30
We love repairing things instead of buying new things.
39:34
That's a big thing around here.
39:35
I like teaching them that stuff.
39:37
Yeah.
39:38
And also very empowering for them to feel like.
39:41
I can do this.
39:42
You know, it's just wood,
39:44
you know?
39:44
It's just wood.
39:45
Yeah.
39:46
That's build it ourselves.
39:47
Doesn't power ourselves.
39:48
I think in this culture we have this outsourcing mentality where everything
39:52
is assigned to a professional to do.
39:54
Mm-hmm.
39:55
You can't really do a lot yourself these days because it's a professional's
39:59
job to do it, and I think that's actually a really big disservice as
40:04
we're facing a very uncertain future.
40:06
I want my kids to know how to build things.
40:08
I want them to be helpful members of their community and I want them to
40:13
be able to operate independently, run their own house and, you know, fix
40:17
things around the house without needing to employ someone for everything.
40:21
Yeah.
40:22
Speaking
40:23
of building, you have built a lot of technology products in your life.
40:28
Your entire career has been building things like starting
40:32
companies and building products.
40:34
You know, your kids are getting to the age where, and society is getting to
40:39
the place where like technology is.
40:41
Deeply ingrained in our lives.
40:43
And I'm curious what you want your kids' relationship with technology
40:48
to be as they're getting older.
40:51
You know, we're, we're watching the airplane being built while
40:54
we're flying in it, right?
40:55
And I think this AI change is so much bigger than we really can fully
41:02
grasp 'cause we're in the soup.
41:04
And so I definitely have my mind on that when I am seeing
41:08
what they're learning in school.
41:10
Obviously the public school system's not adapting very quickly to this.
41:14
Education in general is not adapting very quickly to this.
41:18
And I'm really uncertain what the future's gonna look like for them.
41:22
You know, when they are old enough to get a job, will there be jobs?
41:27
Right?
41:27
What will the jobs look like?
41:28
How are we going to define what productive work is?
41:33
Is it going to be just being really good at managing a bunch of AI agents?
41:37
Maybe I think that there's a lot of, let's wait and see and
41:42
let's just find out what happens.
41:44
My daughter is an amazing artist, and we did this great
41:47
thing with the new chat, GPT.
41:50
I don't even know if there's a brand on it.
41:52
Oh, the new image, the new cartoon tool.
41:54
Yeah.
41:54
Image Generat.
41:54
Image Generator,
41:55
yeah.
41:55
Oh
41:55
my gosh.
41:56
Such an amazing tool.
41:57
I was a mid journey guy for a long time, and this is just miles beyond.
42:02
So what we did is she's super creative.
42:05
She's just started drawing these amazing animal cups, I think
42:10
could be an A to a product.
42:11
Absolutely.
42:13
And she draws them and she's like, we'll get requests on Facebook.
42:17
And she draws on requests and it's really fun.
42:20
I thought, what if we popped this image that she drew into Chachi
42:24
PT and asked, make it real.
42:26
Right.
42:27
And sure enough, it made this amazing.
42:30
I. Plastic in, you know, in a real cafe.
42:34
And it just, it was so, I could tell it was so inspiring to her to be able to
42:39
see the reality of what she's making.
42:43
And I can see that as being something that will be very helpful in the future as the
42:48
humans being the spark of the inspiration that leads to the product, right?
42:53
That it's all about ideation, individual creation.
42:57
And so for me, when I am thinking about that future, I really hope and would love
43:03
to inspire my kids to be entrepreneurs themselves and to be thinking about
43:08
what they wanna put into the world, the reasons why, how to come up with
43:12
a good idea, how to be a self-starter.
43:15
And also, honestly, I think being an artist is really important.
43:19
And I think that is perhaps going to be the way that we are communicating with.
43:25
These machines and understanding them is through art, through storytelling.
43:30
And we'll see.
43:31
We'll see where it goes.
43:32
Yeah.
43:32
You're echoing is something that I've heard from, you know, a growing
43:36
number of dads on this show, which is using technology as an active
43:42
participant and as a tool for that growth that you describe, right?
43:47
Yeah.
43:47
And so how amazing at some point for your daughter to be able to go from
43:51
like I drew a picture to maybe this thing can be produced physically.
43:56
Now, this picture that I made, what a cool concept
43:59
AI is going to make it so that you can have an idea and you
44:05
can make a real version of it, literally in an hour or less, right?
44:11
And it's gonna come up with a marketing plan and it's gonna know
44:13
where to distribute and it's gonna make the connections and your AI
44:16
agents, it's going to be such an incredibly explosive time of creation.
44:22
And so then my question is.
44:25
What is that world gonna be like to live in?
44:27
Right.
44:28
That's where my fear is, is just being overwhelmed by all the
44:32
great products and ideas and apps.
44:34
It's like, how are we gonna be able to consume all of that?
44:37
Yeah.
44:38
If I succeed in this parenting thing and launching them, I really
44:42
hope to launch them into being a little entrepreneurs themselves.
44:46
Hmm.
44:46
That's awesome.
44:48
On the flip side, what would you say is a mistake that you made as a dad?
44:55
I've made several, so I think the biggest one that I have the most regret about,
45:00
honestly, you know, it's interesting to admit this in a public setting,
45:04
but I like to live my life openly.
45:07
I think.
45:09
It's this memory I have of when my son was three, he was like deeply into that
45:16
three-year-old energy of feeling the frustration of the world, not conforming
45:20
to your wishes, and then not being sure what to do with that energy and
45:24
channeling it into aggression and anger.
45:28
And as his father, it was pretty frightening and
45:32
overwhelming to experience that.
45:34
And he would start punching on his sister and punching on me and like being
45:39
able to produce a fair amount of pain.
45:42
And so that I knew wasn't gonna stand and I didn't know what to do.
45:47
And so I remember.
45:50
In one of my iterations of trying, I tried to holding him so that he
45:54
couldn't like, but then that felt like weird, like I was restraining him and
45:58
it didn't seem to help him at all.
45:59
He just got worse.
46:01
And then one day I thought, well, I'll put him in his room.
46:04
Well, we're in a house with two doors on his room.
46:07
So that didn't really work very well.
46:09
He just ran outta the other door, so, whoops, dad.
46:12
And so I thought, okay, well maybe if I just, 'cause I had this notion maybe
46:16
from when I was a kid, I don't know, go to your room when you're upset, right?
46:21
And so I thought, well maybe I'll just put him in this closet and you
46:26
know, maybe that'll calm him down.
46:27
Well, it calmed him down immediately and I opened the closet and the look on
46:33
his face was just like, it was so sad.
46:37
Like, I feel sad even relating that.
46:40
They're thinking about that image.
46:41
He was so sad.
46:43
And so in that moment I thought, oh, I'm never doing that again.
46:47
That's not something that I'm ever gonna try.
46:50
And what I have learned since is that it's really about, I don't
46:56
wanna ever push my kids away or even create separation, right?
47:02
Because kids are, they're governed by wanting association with you.
47:06
That's how they feel.
47:07
Safety.
47:08
So if you're pushing them away and saying, you're now disconnected
47:12
from the tribe, go, you know, that's the worst feeling in the world.
47:16
That's like, as an adult, that's torture for a kid.
47:19
So I try to never do that.
47:22
But what I do is I help show him ways to use and manipulate
47:27
that energy in productive ways.
47:29
And so I try to redirect it.
47:31
And so what we started doing was I would.
47:34
Take him to a different room with me, I'm there with him, and then
47:40
showing him and doing it myself too.
47:42
But like punching, punching a pillow, something safe, right?
47:47
Allowing him to push against me while I hold him, right.
47:51
And just being okay with that energy being directed at me.
47:54
And that really helped, honestly.
47:56
And I think that, I would imagine that is helping him learn how to be in
48:04
relationship with that energy, those emotions that are so strong, that
48:09
honestly will be part of his whole life.
48:12
And so I want him to have a good relationship with his
48:14
anger, with his sadness.
48:16
So yeah, that was, yeah.
48:19
Wow.
48:19
A mistake in learning.
48:20
Yeah.
48:21
And I mean, thank you for sharing that story.
48:23
I would imagine it's more common than we might think to have
48:28
something like that happen.
48:29
And it sounds like you've learned a good lesson about not.
48:33
Trying to quiet the energy, but just redirecting it into a
48:37
different, more productive place or allowing it to be there, but away
48:43
from harm or anything like that.
48:45
Yeah.
48:46
I love what, uh, it's allowing the energy to be present, but directing
48:51
it into a place that's more productive and safer for everyone, including
48:56
it, rather than excluding it.
48:57
Yeah.
48:58
Well, that sounds like a great thing to end on, a great lesson to end on,
49:03
so I appreciate you sharing that.
49:05
How can people follow along or be helpful to you on your journey?
49:12
For any of your listeners that are co-parents themselves, you can look me up.
49:17
I run a podcast called Co-Parenting Beyond Conflict, where we specifically
49:21
talk about how to cope with and thrive in this sometimes very challenging
49:27
situation of being a co-parent.
49:28
So you can look us up on Apple Podcasts wherever you get your podcasts,
49:32
and also if you're interested in co-parenting with best interest.
49:36
Best interest allows you to create peace and can be a very difficult situation.
49:43
Using AI as a tool to moderate all communication between co-parents,
49:48
you can experience peace.
49:50
So you can look us up on best interest app.com.
49:52
Okay.
49:53
Well thank you for those.
49:54
We'll link to both of those places in the show notes.
49:56
So appreciate you sharing that.
49:59
Are you ready for our lightning round?
50:03
Sure.
50:03
No one is ever officially ready for lightning round.
50:06
I
50:06
thought I was off.
50:07
Shoot.
50:07
Okay.
50:08
Okay, here we go.
50:10
What is the most indispensable parenting product that you have
50:14
ever purchased?
50:15
This one's great.
50:16
So it's a little bug catcher that has a little sliding trap door and whenever
50:22
you find a bug in the house, you can go and just take it safely outside.
50:28
And I think that that is such a great image or a great experience for the kids.
50:33
Not only do they get to look at the bug, 'cause it has a
50:35
nice magnifying glass in it.
50:37
They can learn about bugs, but it also teaches them that it's
50:40
better not to kill things.
50:41
We love it every time we see a bug.
50:43
Get the bug catcher, dad.
50:44
There's no panic.
50:45
It's just like, go do this thing.
50:47
Yeah.
50:47
That'ss.
50:47
Awesome.
50:48
What is the most useless parenting product that you've
50:51
ever purchased?
50:52
Earlier in the interview I was talking about these products that
50:56
are sold to first time parents.
50:58
Honestly, I think it's pretty awful.
51:00
As a first time parent, I would highly encourage you, get only
51:03
used things, don't buy new stuff.
51:05
Definitely don't buy technology.
51:07
Your baby's not gonna die.
51:08
I mean, SIDS is a real thing, absolutely.
51:11
But not at the level that you're afraid of it.
51:13
Right now, don't buy that fancy $200 sock that I'll monitor.
51:17
It's just gonna go on the waistband.
51:19
You know?
51:19
It's like not, not helpful.
51:21
So just keep it simple and get all your stuff.
51:23
Hand me down.
51:24
This
51:25
is the second time, probably in a week or two, that somebody has
51:28
said that the, that baby sock, that monitors is a terrible idea.
51:32
The last person said it's because the baby sock makes you think
51:35
that your kid is always dying.
51:37
I never used the baby sock, but I definitely thought about buying it and
51:41
yeah, I now know in hindsight, no, it's not a good use of your time or money.
51:47
All right.
51:47
What is your signature Dad's superpower?
51:51
Yeah, I mentioned it earlier.
51:52
I think it's my, my calm, my grounding.
51:54
I tend to be able to navigate all situations with my kids with like
51:59
calmness and I really like to help them redirect that energy.
52:04
Now in your household, are you team swings or team slides?
52:09
I really, I love doing things together with my kids and I think I like slides and
52:16
I think my kids really like slides too.
52:18
We don't have a slide.
52:19
We have a swing.
52:19
Swings are cool because you can do it together.
52:22
I love pushing my kids on a swing.
52:24
It's like the best thing.
52:26
I'll be so sad when they sob ask me to push him on a swing.
52:29
Yeah.
52:30
Yeah.
52:30
If your kids had to describe you in a single word, what would it be?
52:34
Is it the first word that comes to my head?
52:38
I don't know.
52:39
Maybe nice daddy.
52:41
I actually don't know.
52:42
Yeah, that, that checks out.
52:44
That's probably good.
52:45
What is your go-to dad wardrobe?
52:48
I am all about efficiency, as you can tell.
52:51
I love hoodies.
52:52
I love warmth, and honestly, I've never been fashionable, but I was a
52:57
little bit more fashionable than now.
52:59
Now I'm just like, ah, whatever.
53:00
Yeah, just put it on.
53:02
I don't even care about my hair when I drop off the kids at school.
53:04
Like who am I trying to impress?
53:07
No, it's
53:07
all about convenience.
53:09
Yeah.
53:09
Yes.
53:09
What is your go-to bribe for good behavior
53:13
with
53:13
the kids?
53:14
Well, we do this thing here that is actually really cool.
53:18
It's worked pretty well, so we have a token system, and I have somehow trained
53:24
them that tokens are the reward and that they can use the tokens for things
53:30
that they want, and so we have this.
53:31
System that's set up where, you know, if they do something good, like clean
53:36
their room, then they get a token.
53:38
And then if they wanna do something like watch on the tv, it costs a couple tokens.
53:43
And so it's like an early introduction to chores and we're starting to adapt the
53:48
token system to be convertible to money.
53:50
So there's kind of a mapping to money and they were able
53:53
to buy something with tokens.
53:55
And so there's kind of that going on.
53:57
But I really like disintermediating reward with like work.
54:04
I never liked the idea of like, okay, if you do this thing,
54:07
I'm gonna give you this candy.
54:08
Like that's just not, and oftentimes the reward doesn't.
54:12
Always follow.
54:13
So I like this idea that they have a duty to clean their room, and that's not
54:18
always gonna map to them watching right after, but they know that when they're
54:23
building up those tokens and later they're gonna be able to get the reward.
54:26
Yeah.
54:27
Maybe when they're older, you could build a little
54:28
app for them that they could keep track of their token.
54:31
Don't,
54:31
no, don't get me started.
54:34
I'm already busy.
54:34
Another company.
54:35
Another company.
54:37
Okay.
54:37
Speaking of rewards and purchasing things, what is the most absurd
54:42
thing that one of your kids has ever asked you to buy for them?
54:46
Well, okay, it's not exactly absurd, or at least it didn't start that way.
54:50
My son got a stuffed piggy.
54:52
I don't know if it was like a gift or I don't really know how
54:55
it came into our lives, but he loved that stuffed piggy so much.
55:01
And this would've been probably almost two years ago now.
55:04
Loved it so much that the piggy started going back and
55:06
forth between the two homes.
55:08
My kids aren't like big into bringing things back and forth.
55:12
Well, somehow that's actually pretty good.
55:14
It's pretty easy.
55:15
But this pig would go back and forth in his backpack and it
55:18
was like on the order of being a little too big for his backpack.
55:21
So, but then I think I may have made the mistake of buying him another piggy.
55:26
And then that piggy became three and suddenly three piggies
55:29
were going back and forth.
55:30
And that was when daddy put his foot down, said, no, you can't do that.
55:34
That's too many piggies for school.
55:36
So I made the ingenious decision to tell him, okay, I'll buy you three new
55:43
piggies and then you can have, keep those three piggies at the ones you have at
55:47
your mom's house and keep three piggies at my house and we're good, right?
55:52
We're good.
55:52
You don't have to take 'em back and forth.
55:53
And he's like, yeah, good.
55:55
And I thought that was it.
55:56
I. So now we have 36 pigs.
55:59
He's proud to tell you, 36 pigs and it didn't work.
56:03
They go back and forth.
56:05
They're, we have pigs everywhere.
56:06
I don't know what's going on, but that was not a good solution.
56:10
You need a separate vehicle just to transport the pigs.
56:13
It's like moving a football team back and forth.
56:15
We have moved pigs in boxes before.
56:17
Yes.
56:18
This is my, this is the equivalent of my son with penguins.
56:21
Same thing.
56:21
He doesn't have to move him back and forth, but he does like to
56:23
bring a penguin or two on a trip.
56:25
So, yeah, you know, I don't know what it is.
56:27
I think it might have something to do with like.
56:30
He feels known by his association with Piggie.
56:34
Obviously he likes 'em, but this is like the piggy king of his school.
56:39
Like all the other kids know that he loves pigs and they barter pigs with
56:43
him, like they give them their stuff, pigs that they don't want, like this
56:48
guy's got, he's got piggy games swimming
56:50
and swimming in pigs.
56:52
He's got real riz when it comes to pigs.
56:54
So yes, as the kids say, what is your favorite kids movie?
56:59
You know, there's a lot of crap out there.
57:01
I think what I like the best is sitting down with them with Pixar.
57:05
I think Pixar is pretty much always good and I love how it's
57:08
entertaining for me and for them, and it just works for everything.
57:12
Yeah, that's my go-to.
57:14
Okay.
57:14
All things Pixar.
57:15
What
57:16
is the worst experience that you've ever had?
57:19
Assembling a kid's toy or a piece of furniture?
57:22
My kids are very lucky because they have a dad who is quite handy.
57:27
My grandfather actually growing up, I remember he was so handy and
57:31
was able to do anything and build anything for me when I was little and
57:35
I would always looked up for that.
57:36
And so I, I love being able to be that for my kids, but also teaching
57:40
them how to build stuff too.
57:42
And like incorporating that in.
57:43
I'm not gonna do it all for them, but I'm gonna teach them how to
57:46
do it so they can do it with me.
57:48
And so, yeah, I wouldn't say that I've ever had any struggles with building
57:53
anything and I love building things with them and making my own stuff and yeah.
57:58
Awesome.
57:59
And an amazing rarity in a dad I find these days, so.
58:02
Really?
58:03
Oh, that's surprising.
58:05
It's so fun how?
58:06
It's just wood.
58:07
It's just wood.
58:08
I love that.
58:09
That's gonna be the title of this episode.
58:11
How long can a piece of food sit on the floor and you will still eat it?
58:16
Oh, I don't know.
58:17
I mean, uh hmm.
58:20
I am pretty sensitive to my digestion and I'm actually fairly critical
58:27
of not eating things that, you know, when in doubt, throw it out.
58:30
That's
58:30
okay.
58:30
All right.
58:31
I think it's a good rule to live by.
58:32
Yeah.
58:33
Okay, two more for you.
58:35
What nostalgic movie can you just not wait to force
58:40
your kids to watch with you?
58:41
Star Wars.
58:42
We're still waiting on that one.
58:43
Yeah, I think maybe about a year ago, like I, I opened it up a little bit
58:47
too early and like there was some fear that I sensed, so we stopped it.
58:52
But God, I can't wait.
58:53
Can't wait to show them Star Wars.
58:55
Yeah.
58:55
Hmm.
58:56
Now will you go, so there's nine of them now.
58:59
Will you start at the very beginning or will you go like the original
59:02
order that they were released?
59:04
What do you think?
59:04
I think original order.
59:06
You got to.
59:06
I think so.
59:07
I don't even, I think I'll just pretend like the other ones don't exist and
59:10
let them discover them on their own.
59:12
One, two, and three.
59:13
Not worth it.
59:14
I'll let them disappoint themselves.
59:15
Yeah.
59:15
Yeah.
59:16
Okay.
59:16
Finally, only have two kids, but you do have a lot of pigs.
59:21
So what is your take on minivans?
59:25
Well, you know, I'll tell you, it's a complicated take.
59:28
I think that there is a choice you get to make as a parent when choosing cars.
59:34
You can either be the parent that drives.
59:38
Every single kid around, everywhere all the time.
59:42
If you wanna do that, get the mini band.
59:45
If you wanna have a little bit more peace and less responsibility and
59:49
have your kids be driven around, then get the normal five seater.
59:54
Yeah, that's what I chose.
59:55
Mini Cooper.
59:57
Yeah, right.
59:59
Motorcycle.
1:00:00
All right.
1:00:01
Sidecar.
1:00:01
Right.
1:00:02
I love that sidecar.
1:00:03
Just for the pigs actually, so, yes, that's right.
1:00:06
Okay.
1:00:06
Well, Saul, it has been my absolute pleasure having you on Startup Dad today.
1:00:11
Thank you so much for joining me and best of luck to you, your
1:00:16
family, and your burgeoning app.
1:00:19
Best interest.
1:00:20
I'll have to go check it out.
1:00:21
Thank you, Adam.
1:00:22
I really appreciate it.
1:00:24
Thank you for listening to today's conversation with Saul Kennedy.
1:00:27
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1:00:31
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1:01:06
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1:01:09
I.