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The Ethics of Reality TV · Think Twice Show

• 0:00
  The Apprentice, Dragons den, Shark Tank, all of it is
• 0:03
  capitalist propaganda. Fuck off, sorry.
• 0:09
  The Apprentice is wrong isn't to perpetuate capitalism, just life
• 0:13
  that we currently live in. Let's make it fun, happy.
• 0:17
  Tamira Kaz, your one day. Like they're all
• 0:20
  underappreciated black women on Love Island.
• 0:22
  Samira is bad. Yes, you're bad.
• 0:24
  Yeah. She's bad bro.
• 0:26
  Reality TV is almost like the more toxic it is, the more fun
• 0:30
  it is. To watch it commodifies
• 0:31
  vulnerability, but in a way they like like to watch.
• 0:35
  Like, welcome to think twice.
• 0:50
  My name is Beto. My name's Sam.
• 0:53
  And today is a slightly different episode.
• 0:56
  Today we're doing things slightly differently.
• 0:59
  And if you haven't ever watched a show that shows about
• 1:01
  philosophy and ethics and what's right, what's wrong, how do you
• 1:05
  do things, etcetera. We thought we'd switch up today,
• 1:08
  not because the old format's tired or anything or boring.
• 1:10
  It's just that, you know, this is a show.
• 1:12
  We make a lot of episodes. We think, let's change it a
• 1:15
  little. Bit yeah, we'll have fun of it.
• 1:16
  Exactly, Yeah. See if you like something
• 1:18
  slightly different. And today, this show, it's a
• 1:20
  working title, we were thinking net positive, right?
• 1:23
  And you might ask us what is net positive?
• 1:26
  And it's simple when you think about finances.
• 1:29
  So when you think about finances, if something cost £10
• 1:32
  to make, I sell it for 20 lbs, I've got a £10 profit, right?
• 1:36
  But it's not that simple when you're talking about ethics,
• 1:40
  because not everything is quantifiable by an amount of
• 1:45
  money, by a simple figure, which you can do in finances.
• 1:49
  Yeah, it's not actually that difficult to understand.
• 1:51
  They get it, they get it. They understand it, They get it.
• 1:53
  I feel like I'm not explaining it well though.
• 1:55
  No, they get it. They get it especially when we
• 1:57
  get into the examples, the case studies we're looking at don't
• 1:59
  get it. Overall, is it a good or bad
• 2:02
  thing? Is the impact that the things
• 2:04
  we're going to talk about good or bad?
• 2:06
  And I think as soon as we ask the question, people at home are
• 2:09
  going to have an idea of what they're.
• 2:10
  On Yes, You know, we don't want to confuse the audience.
• 2:12
  Yeah. Oh, and today is a lighter
• 2:15
  episode. You know, usually we're talking
• 2:17
  about existentialism, we're talking about life's big
• 2:20
  questions. We're talking about hedism,
• 2:21
  We're talking about stuff that some people don't give a fuck
• 2:24
  about, but people can fuck about this one.
• 2:29
  People care about this stuff. And so today we're talking about
• 2:32
  reality television. So the first question is Love
• 2:37
  Island a net positive? Love Island's a net positive.
• 2:45
  I know you'd be surprised. That is a net positive.
• 2:49
  I just think that bro, reality TV is, is genuinely so good for
• 2:55
  people just sitting around and having conversations about life.
• 2:58
  It it starts all these conversations.
• 3:00
  Like think about when Love Island's on Twitter's on fire,
• 3:05
  Twitter's on fire and there's a lot of mess in that.
• 3:08
  But there's also a lot of good in that though.
• 3:09
  When you sit down and watch reality TV with your partner or
• 3:11
  your friends, you talk about relationships in a positive way.
• 3:15
  Like you talk about resolving conflict with a partner or
• 3:17
  dating courtship, like that sort of stuff in a positive way.
• 3:20
  Do you not think? I think reality TV does that for
• 3:22
  us? You know, I think Love Island is
• 3:24
  an example where it's like there's a lot of bad with Love
• 3:29
  Island and we'll get into the bad.
• 3:31
  I think there's so much good as well.
• 3:32
  Like don't get me wrong, I, I, I think it's great.
• 3:35
  Obviously I don't watch it too tough anymore, but when I did
• 3:38
  watch it, like I loved it. Like I was watching, I was doing
• 3:40
  the research yesterday and that music started playing and I was
• 3:43
  getting like excited again that that.
• 3:47
  That, that, that, that. I said to God I was listening
• 3:50
  and I was like, oh this is fucking great.
• 3:52
  Yeah, man. But I, I, I think it's a
• 3:54
  negative. I have to lean to that just
• 3:57
  because we'll get into more depth.
• 3:59
  But the headline is that what is reality TV there for?
• 4:04
  It's for entertainment, right? Sure.
• 4:06
  But if people pass away as a result of entertainment, I feel
• 4:12
  it has to be a net negative. I feel it has to be.
• 4:16
  I just don't think. Life is not worth Caroline
• 4:19
  Flack. Caroline Flack, Mike Sophie.
• 4:23
  I just don't ever think it can be a true net positive if people
• 4:28
  have passed them away as a result of a show, as a result of
• 4:32
  entertainment. Is it that's AI can't like it's
• 4:34
  a compelling point and there's nothing that I'm going to sit
• 4:37
  here and say that will excuse the loss of life than ever.
• 4:42
  And I think I think it's it's really sad that that they passed
• 4:45
  away. And it's clear that that that
• 4:47
  show made things worse for them. Like it wasn't a good factor.
• 4:51
  But you know the. Tough part about that.
• 4:52
  Is I don't even know if it's the show, and I don't know if it's
• 4:56
  the show's fault because these things happened on other shows.
• 4:59
  The things that happened to you in the show, how the producers
• 5:01
  like deal with you, That's not unique to Love Island, right?
• 5:06
  But the fame is unique. And that's not the show's fault.
• 5:09
  Do you get what I mean? So like, the argument that you
• 5:12
  make that it's a net positive is fair because the problems that
• 5:15
  have come from it that that they then face isn't the show's
• 5:21
  fault. It's tough to say what the show
• 5:22
  did exactly to to get them to that face.
• 5:25
  More like what what was the public pressure after the show?
• 5:29
  Because you are like, especially for a little bit, when you come
• 5:31
  out off the island, you are inundated with, like, attention.
• 5:36
  Yeah, exactly. And that's just like.
• 5:37
  Which then disappears. Yeah, it's tough.
• 5:40
  It's tough for anyone, tough for people to deal with, right.
• 5:42
  And obviously on some level, like the people go and then
• 5:45
  appreciate that, that fame and notoriety that you get from the
• 5:49
  show after the show, it's part of the point of going on the
• 5:52
  show. Yeah, right.
• 5:52
  Right. Like you.
• 5:53
  You. It was informed consent, right?
• 5:55
  You get what I mean? It wasn't a surprise.
• 5:57
  It wasn't an accident. You you knew these things might
• 6:00
  happen, it's just were they able to deal with it, which is sad.
• 6:03
  Yeah, you know, when, when when people go on a show and they are
• 6:07
  they have consented to being famous and like being on on
• 6:11
  camera in the way that they are on Love Island.
• 6:14
  I do think the show has a responsibility to like, a duty
• 6:17
  of care to them because like, they know what they're getting
• 6:19
  into. But once they're in it, like
• 6:21
  it's like when you go to a new job, you know, people tell you
• 6:24
  it's going to be hectic, mad work hours and you're like, I
• 6:27
  can, I can handle it. Like I'm getting paid better
• 6:30
  money, but when you get into it, like the employer still has a
• 6:32
  duty. Of care.
• 6:33
  Same, Yeah. It's not the same like you don't
• 6:35
  know what it's really like. I think your employer love Alan
• 6:37
  in this respect. Has it?
• 6:38
  They've got a duty of care. They have got a duty of care,
• 6:40
  but. Like, and I feel like they have
• 6:42
  failed the duty of care in the past, like they've been
• 6:44
  criticised for that in, in, in the public.
• 6:46
  Course, but it's so tough, bro. Like, these are other humans
• 6:50
  doing this. It's not like, yeah, yeah, you
• 6:52
  know what I mean? It's not like some machine that
• 6:54
  has to make sure you're perfect after this thing.
• 6:57
  Like it's tough, like there's other humans with imperfections
• 7:00
  trying to do this thing right. But 2019 has 6,000,000 viewers
• 7:05
  when you got 6,000,000? Viewers.
• 7:07
  Like you brought joy to a lot of people, like a lot of people.
• 7:12
  And that's where I struggled with like, how can it be a net
• 7:14
  negative if this many people have enjoyed this show this
• 7:19
  much? It's good conversation.
• 7:20
  It creates connection, it adds to people summers like it gives
• 7:24
  like you talk about it in many, many years to come right about
• 7:28
  the joy it gave you, particularly 2021 summer.
• 7:30
  Oh God, it was amazing that alongside the Euros.
• 7:33
  Yeah, EUR euro final, yeah. Probably.
• 7:35
  It was amazing. It's mad.
• 7:36
  Amazing summer and that altogether, that's why a proper
• 7:40
  struggle with calling it a net negative.
• 7:42
  But I just couldn't get away from.
• 7:44
  I guess this is a little bit different because of the
• 7:48
  contestants on it. But like when you think about
• 7:49
  like Jeremy Carl or Jerry Springer, yeah, they have to say
• 7:53
  with a lot. It could be quite adorable too.
• 7:56
  Like, but, but The thing is when people's lives and contestants
• 8:01
  are being damaged. So directly.
• 8:04
  So directly I struggle to see how that those things can happen
• 8:09
  and it's still be a positive. Yeah, but so.
• 8:12
  So if you took the people that have passed away, made it rest
• 8:15
  in peace, if you took them out of the equation, how would you
• 8:19
  view Love Island? Because I feel like you see it
• 8:20
  in a positive light outside. Yeah, OK.
• 8:22
  And it's weird, bro, because like, I'm so conflicted because
• 8:26
  I wouldn't get to the point where I'm like, cancel Love
• 8:31
  Island. Because if you're saying
• 8:32
  something's a net negative, right, Right.
• 8:34
  You would be like, finish the shot.
• 8:36
  Yeah, get rid of. It get rid.
• 8:37
  Of it and I, I still don't think, I still don't think
• 8:42
  that's the case. Oh, you, you might, you might be
• 8:43
  like net negative. I I remove myself.
• 8:47
  I won't watch it, but other people can do what they want to
• 8:50
  do. Yeah, you could be in.
• 8:51
  That I'm not even like. You're not even there.
• 8:53
  I'm not even there. I I just don't want you to enjoy
• 8:56
  it like that anymore. But like if I did enjoy it, I
• 8:59
  would still watch it and it and it's a weird 1 and I don't, I
• 9:03
  don't know where to land on it because I just value life so
• 9:07
  much, right? But in the same breath you can.
• 9:11
  I don't like to call it mistakes because I think it's too, too
• 9:15
  grave to call death's mistakes like, but things that they've
• 9:21
  got wrong and have led to that and try and reduce it as much as
• 9:24
  possible because they're not in control of everything, the duty
• 9:27
  of care that you were talking about, but try and reduce it as
• 9:29
  much as possible. And then, yeah.
• 9:31
  Yeah. I mean, clearly there's some
• 9:33
  level of aftercare when they come off the show that was
• 9:36
  missing. Like I don't think if they had a
• 9:39
  really robust aftercare like programme, I don't really know
• 9:43
  what they do after the show to be fair, But if you came off and
• 9:46
  you had a robust system of like aftercare, especially in terms
• 9:49
  of mental health, those unfortunate situations could be
• 9:53
  avoided. No, I don't I.
• 9:54
  Don't know. I I genuinely don't know.
• 9:57
  I, I don't think so. I think it'd be really tough to
• 10:00
  avoid what some people have to go through after being that
• 10:06
  famous. To them, to me it really
• 10:07
  important, to them not being really important.
• 10:10
  The drop off. That's a massive thing.
• 10:13
  Even just dealing with being really important can be quite
• 10:15
  tough. Like just your, your familial
• 10:18
  relationships, your friendships change like everything just
• 10:21
  changes very quickly for you and you just might not be able to
• 10:24
  handle it, irrespective of the help you might receive.
• 10:27
  We've seen that in various other scenarios.
• 10:30
  It's not. It's not unique to Love Island.
• 10:31
  100% it's like when people win the lottery like they their
• 10:35
  lives just implode perfect and they go back to broke.
• 10:37
  Exactly, and they're literally worse off than they were when
• 10:39
  before they literally. So sort of like, is that their
• 10:42
  fault? I don't know.
• 10:43
  But like, it's hard for me to sit and be like, yeah, the
• 10:45
  show's been not positive. Do you know what I mean?
• 10:47
  Like, yeah. I hear it.
• 10:49
  There was a time where I was like, Love Island would be a net
• 10:52
  negative for me. It was way back.
• 10:54
  Remember Samira's season? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 10:57
  There was a scene where like Samira was by the pool and she'd
• 11:00
  just been rejected by like a guy and it turned out like she like
• 11:04
  no one wanted her, none of the guys like voted to recouple with
• 11:07
  her and she was crying because she felt unwanted.
• 11:10
  And I remember watching that scene thinking what the hell is
• 11:13
  going on here? Samira is bad.
• 11:17
  Yes. Yeah.
• 11:17
  Bad, Yeah. She's bad.
• 11:19
  If you watched Samira's season, you'd think like she wasn't
• 11:22
  pretty. Like she wasn't like attractive
• 11:25
  and. With the way they treated her.
• 11:26
  The way they treated her on the show and, and obviously on some
• 11:30
  level that is that's reflective of how it is to be black in a
• 11:33
  white dominated space. That's just the way it is and
• 11:35
  it's the reality that black women have to deal with.
• 11:38
  But I didn't like the fact that that was happening live over in
• 11:41
  the flesh. The entire UK public was
• 11:43
  watching that and it seemed to reinforce that idea instead of
• 11:48
  challenging. It's tough though, bro.
• 11:49
  Like, because, because it's supposed to be reality TV,
• 11:53
  right? It's supposed to be a
• 11:54
  reflection. I know, I know.
• 11:56
  I just it's kind of wanted a bit more from the TV screen that
• 12:01
  day. When I'm looking, I'm seeing
• 12:03
  Samira, Kaz, Yowande, like they're all underappreciated
• 12:07
  black women on Love Island. Yeah, I, I, I'm with you on
• 12:10
  that. Like I I don't disagree.
• 12:12
  With that and that would never happen with the white girls.
• 12:15
  No, of course not. But it's a reflection of UK
• 12:17
  society, like you're right, of British society, even, sorry,
• 12:21
  British and Irish society. It's not so much the show's
• 12:25
  responsibility, right? But in the seasons after that,
• 12:29
  they kind of corrected it. They just had more black people
• 12:31
  because at that time, Samira was.
• 12:33
  Oh, yeah, yeah. OK.
• 12:33
  Do you know what I mean? Samira was like a token.
• 12:35
  She was just there, like, I don't think there was a, there
• 12:38
  might have been a black guy there.
• 12:39
  I'm not. I'm not 100%.
• 12:41
  There probably was. I think there probably.
• 12:42
  Was but no one is checking for her.
• 12:45
  But the moment you put like two or three black women together,
• 12:47
  it's like, oh, at least they've got like a bubble of protection
• 12:51
  now. It's not just the the one token.
• 12:53
  They can reaffirm themselves in the bubble even if the wider
• 12:56
  group don't do that. Do you get what I'm trying to
• 12:58
  say in the recent seasons where like Ella and Whitney like their
• 13:03
  friendship, like they can stick together?
• 13:05
  Me, me and the other girl. You might be getting too new for
• 13:09
  me so. Yeah, so me.
• 13:10
  I didn't. I didn't even watch that.
• 13:12
  What last one you just said? Oh, is it?
• 13:13
  Ella, Ella and Ty and Whitney and I don't.
• 13:17
  Watch that one swear. Yeah, I didn't watch that one.
• 13:19
  No, that produced some iconic moment.
• 13:23
  So yeah, there's like more black women there.
• 13:25
  So it's like they kind of corrected that.
• 13:26
  And I genuinely feel like people, the fans of the show
• 13:29
  were like, where are the black people?
• 13:31
  And like, yeah, we are 3% of the UK population.
• 13:34
  But even if you have more than that representation, it doesn't
• 13:38
  like detract from the show is that it adds more colour, you
• 13:40
  know what I mean? So I feel like something that
• 13:42
  they they they corrected. So you can't get it right
• 13:46
  without being reflective of UK sight.
• 13:48
  You get, but but you see like love is blind with.
• 13:50
  Is that a better concept to you than Love Island?
• 13:55
  They're different and I don't know if it's a better concept.
• 13:58
  It's a nicer, safer, more ethical concept.
• 14:01
  Yes. Yes.
• 14:02
  Yeah, yeah, I agree with that 100%.
• 14:04
  Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think all of those
• 14:06
  things are true. But do I think it's it's more
• 14:08
  fun? No, bro.
• 14:10
  Like Love Island in the beginning was kicking like.
• 14:12
  It's weird though because it's almost like the more toxic it
• 14:16
  is, the more fun it is to watch. I believe that's what television
• 14:21
  is, though. Like television.
• 14:24
  I don't think that is weird, man.
• 14:25
  Like society and connections and relationships with people are
• 14:33
  authentic to a point, but there are certain things that you
• 14:36
  probably don't reveal to people. And in reality TV, what we get
• 14:41
  to see is the revelations of those things and it commodifies
• 14:48
  vulnerability, but in a way that like, I like to watch like, you
• 14:52
  know what I mean? So I, I think that that that's
• 14:55
  where it, that's where it's great.
• 14:57
  And I think that's why reality TV is so enjoyable.
• 14:59
  Yeah, yeah, no, it just slaps, bro.
• 15:03
  Love is blind. Ultimatum 1st dates, Yeah,
• 15:06
  you're bad, All of that. Give me that.
• 15:09
  Give me that. It's so weird because I'm taking
• 15:12
  like I used to bang them black, black, but I've taken I've
• 15:16
  actually like reduced. Taking a bit of the amount.
• 15:19
  Of yeah, anyway. Anyway, so be it.
• 15:22
  We'll move on to. The next one.
• 15:30
  Away from dating more now to business more to a show that you
• 15:35
  would consider to always be a net positive, right?
• 15:37
  Maybe The Apprentice net positive or not?
• 15:41
  Net negative. Fuck off.
• 15:43
  Net negative. The Apprentice.
• 15:45
  UK. Sorry, no listen.
• 15:52
  I fucked with The Apprentice heavy for many many years.
• 15:55
  I'd watch The Apprentice UK The Apprentice like the juniors when
• 15:59
  the juniors went on. That was hilarious.
• 16:02
  But there's something. Now I look at The Apprentice and
• 16:06
  I just think that's capitalist propaganda.
• 16:10
  I look at The Apprentice, Dragon's Den, Shark Tank, all of
• 16:15
  it is capitalist propaganda. I'm made to like, see Sir Alan
• 16:21
  Sugar, a massive landlord, someone who sits in the House of
• 16:26
  Lords, someone who insists on the contestants calling him Sir
• 16:30
  Alan, a prick. I'm made to see him in a, in a
• 16:34
  good light. What is that about, really?
• 16:39
  I'm also made to think that bootlicking is the way to, to,
• 16:43
  to get up in the world. You've got 20 grown people
• 16:48
  vying, twerking for Sir Allen's attention, and Sir Allen's
• 16:52
  basically a gatekeeper to the money.
• 16:55
  And it's like twerk for the gatekeeper and maybe the the
• 17:00
  gatekeeper will sprinkle some some of his magic dust on you
• 17:03
  and you'll be the chosen one. That's what the show is.
• 17:07
  Grown people are doing that and it normalises that.
• 17:09
  It's weird. Because I I don't look at the
• 17:10
  show like that. Right, but that's what.
• 17:12
  The show is obviously, I see it as a net positive, right?
• 17:15
  Only slightly. Not like, yeah.
• 17:16
  Not like I think the show is. Fucking sure, you know.
• 17:19
  Great. But what's interesting about The
• 17:23
  Apprentice is the fact that humans are willing to go through
• 17:29
  what they're about to go through to achieve their dreams.
• 17:34
  That's basically what it is. You have a business that you
• 17:36
  think can help the world, right? You have this business plan that
• 17:39
  you want to help the world with. You want to.
• 17:41
  Help themselves well. You're providing a service.
• 17:45
  That's generally what it is, right?
• 17:46
  Like you're providing a service to improve.
• 17:49
  Yeah, you're generally. Something valuable for sure.
• 17:51
  Exactly. And now they're chasing it.
• 17:56
  I don't like the way the contestants are manipulated.
• 18:00
  The manipulations, man. But the same is the case for
• 18:03
  Love Island. You're right.
• 18:04
  So if we if we understand that reality TV manipulates it's
• 18:08
  contestants, if you if you, if you hate it so much, it's always
• 18:11
  going to be a negative, right? Like, but put that to one side.
• 18:15
  Do I laugh when I watch Apprentice answers?
• 18:18
  Yes. Yeah.
• 18:20
  Do I stay tuned for a whole episode?
• 18:23
  The answer is yes. Do I then talk to people about
• 18:26
  it? Yes.
• 18:28
  How long has it run for? 15 years.
• 18:32
  More than that, it's run since 2005.
• 18:35
  Probably in 20 years. Yeah, yeah.
• 18:37
  This will be the 20th one that's coming out a.
• 18:39
  Lot of people love it, a lot of people.
• 18:40
  Watch it yeah I feel like it has to be a net positive for that
• 18:43
  reason. The The Apprentice is wrong
• 18:46
  isn't too perpetuate or devalue capitalism like it's not that's
• 18:53
  not the role of it. It's just life that we currently
• 18:56
  live in. Let's make it fun for people.
• 18:59
  Let's laugh a little bit. I.
• 19:01
  Guess so, but like there is a level of detachment, like The
• 19:04
  Apprentice isn't real life. I mean, none of it is real life,
• 19:06
  but it doesn't mimic real life either.
• 19:09
  Like the, the people, what they're doing is like, it's,
• 19:12
  it's weird to us, it's foreign to us.
• 19:14
  Like at least on Love Island, yes, everyone on there has got
• 19:17
  like an unattainable beauty standard and they're living a
• 19:19
  weird life on a villa or whatever.
• 19:21
  But we've, we've all been on holiday, we've all been to the
• 19:24
  beach, we've all been in bikinis and like got fit for like a
• 19:28
  holiday abroad and seen beautiful people by the
• 19:31
  poolside. Like that's not that far
• 19:33
  removed. The Apprentice is kind of a, a
• 19:35
  weird made-up world that not, not a lot of us would ever
• 19:38
  partake in. Do you see what I'm saying?
• 19:39
  It's not relatable. He's, in a sense, relatable.
• 19:43
  What was that? The my problem is they try and
• 19:46
  microwave it, but it's OK. We've got this camera.
• 19:50
  Yeah, this brand new camera. Market the camera.
• 19:52
  Market the camera right? That is what people have to do.
• 19:55
  But of the millions of people who watch it, like no one does
• 19:58
  that. The the proportion of people who
• 20:01
  have to market a product they made or market in their
• 20:04
  day-to-day, it's just like minuscule.
• 20:06
  Do you? Know what I'm saying in
• 20:07
  comparison to dating? Yeah.
• 20:09
  Yeah, like everyone. Dates, yeah.
• 20:11
  But that's why dating shows generally do the best, because
• 20:13
  everybody does it right. Talk to my point about about the
• 20:16
  propaganda, because I do genuinely think that it's a way
• 20:20
  for someone like Sarana Sugar or someone like Donald Trump who
• 20:24
  does the did The Apprentice US. It's a way for them to launder
• 20:27
  their reputation. Sarana Sugar's now, he's now The
• 20:30
  Apprentice guy. He's not the exploiter of
• 20:32
  thousands of his workers did. You get what I'm saying?
• 20:38
  Yeah. But I, I, I do think that
• 20:41
  happened irrespective of the show.
• 20:43
  So are you saying if there was someone else on there like?
• 20:48
  Joe Blog's billionaire. Not billionaire, but Joe Blog's
• 20:52
  Sustainable. OK, A.
• 20:55
  Sustainable millionaire. Yeah.
• 20:57
  Would that be fine? Wait, so he's a sustainable, you
• 21:00
  say, millionaire. Billionaire.
• 21:01
  Millionaire, you know me. Go.
• 21:08
  You know what I'm saying? He said.
• 21:09
  That many of that. I said no, take that out of it.
• 21:11
  Take that out of it. No, I'm, I'm saying I still
• 21:16
  think like remove the billionaire part of it.
• 21:18
  It's still perpetuates capitalism in a weird way to me.
• 21:21
  Yeah. Yeah, in a sense.
• 21:22
  Yeah, right, right. Whether there's a guy at the top
• 21:24
  that's a billionaire or whatever.
• 21:26
  But yeah, I think it's a it's more palatable if the guy at the
• 21:29
  top wasn't wasn't a billionaire, Definitely be more palatable to
• 21:34
  yeah. Of course, yeah.
• 21:35
  So. Or just an actor.
• 21:36
  Why don't we just have an actor up there?
• 21:38
  Well, the I I I, I do think the show is like it's better.
• 21:41
  For it, it's. Drifted from its roots.
• 21:43
  The idea is that we're going to make the show, kind of make fun
• 21:48
  of the contestants. They might do their business,
• 21:51
  they might not. We don't really care about their
• 21:53
  business. We only bring up their business
• 21:55
  right at the end. Yeah, Yeah.
• 21:56
  And we're here just to kind of like supposed to test them, but
• 22:00
  the tests are so ridiculous. They don't even matter what kind
• 22:03
  of business person you are, you're not going to be able to
• 22:05
  do some of them anyway. And it's just like make fun of
• 22:08
  the contestants a little bit and then get to the end and see how
• 22:11
  it goes. That's that's kind of what it's
• 22:14
  drifted towards. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 22:15
  And I think, I think the obviously they realise like
• 22:18
  that's how you can make ratings, make a show that's just like all
• 22:23
  embarrassing moments and like funny moments.
• 22:26
  Fuck the business stuff, but it's.
• 22:27
  Gone on for so long that I kind of can't hold the show
• 22:30
  responsible for that because contestants go on the show
• 22:33
  knowing what the show is at this point.
• 22:35
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a second. You know that they might
• 22:38
  misrepresent you on television. The difference between
• 22:42
  Apprentice and Love Island is the fame.
• 22:47
  I think it would probably shift into a negative if people became
• 22:51
  more famous as a result of going on the show.
• 22:53
  If they reached the levels of fame people did on Love Island,
• 22:57
  I think they would would maybe drift into a net negative.
• 23:01
  Is that because of the negative impact that like that level of
• 23:04
  fame would bring on people? Seriously.
• 23:06
  That you've misrepresented on television in front of that many
• 23:08
  people. Right, right.
• 23:09
  I do think though, like there is there was a guy who passed away
• 23:14
  after the after appearing on the show.
• 23:15
  Oh really? Yeah, Stuart Bags.
• 23:17
  He was, you know, the guy was like, I'm not just a one trick
• 23:22
  pony. And it's like a lot of people
• 23:25
  didn't mock him for that particular scene was bad online.
• 23:29
  But to be fair, it was like many years ago that that scene
• 23:32
  actually happened. The footage is like grainy on
• 23:34
  YouTube. It's not like front and centre
• 23:36
  like it is on Love Island. Reposted all over YouTube.
• 23:39
  So maybe the impact of the memefication of those
• 23:42
  embarrassing moments wasn't as big as it is these days for Love
• 23:44
  Island contestants. But he did pass away so I don't
• 23:48
  know if that changes. That's the result of that that.
• 23:51
  Who knows though. Obviously that's news to me,
• 23:54
  even like I I assume that might have not been directly leaked.
• 23:58
  No, no, no, I don't think it was directly.
• 24:00
  In the same way we have the issues with the other one.
• 24:04
  Yeah, yeah. But obviously I bring that up
• 24:06
  because you spoke about people who passed away from after
• 24:10
  appearing all of violence. So I thought the comparison
• 24:12
  there's is worth. What do you think about what it
• 24:17
  makes of the person that watches it?
• 24:19
  You said The Apprentice is negative right?
• 24:21
  Like am I now a worse person for watching The Apprentice?
• 24:26
  The thing is, my main qualm about it being captivist
• 24:28
  propaganda, I see it in sort of there's two ways to go from that
• 24:33
  conclusion. If you watch it and you know
• 24:35
  it's capitalist propaganda, but you still have fun with it, like
• 24:39
  who am I to say like you just having fun with it, It's not
• 24:42
  that bad. But if you watch it maybe not
• 24:45
  understanding it's captivist propaganda or your world view
• 24:48
  has changed as a result as a result of that, I think that is
• 24:51
  bad. But then you you're not like you
• 24:55
  didn't know that that's you don't know that's happening to
• 24:56
  you. Yeah, exactly.
• 24:57
  So who am I? I morally condemn you.
• 24:59
  It's just like that's my conclusion is captive
• 25:01
  propaganda. So we I would move with that
• 25:04
  conclusion in mind. Would you like?
• 25:07
  Would you? Do you see my point about
• 25:08
  captive propaganda? I do.
• 25:10
  And the way they're sort of like should kind of be cut throat
• 25:14
  with people. Yeah, like the way to make it in
• 25:17
  life is to stitch people up in. The border, yeah, man, it like
• 25:21
  those sort of the values I don't really jive with if I'm honest,
• 25:26
  and I think that's problematic. But I just think watching any
• 25:32
  show, this is a very sweeping statement.
• 25:35
  So I'll be careful. But generally watching shows
• 25:38
  doesn't make you a better or worse person, smarter or Dumber
• 25:41
  person. I just think it's generally
• 25:45
  entertainment for what you're feeling in that particular
• 25:47
  moment. Like it just doesn't really
• 25:49
  matter. Like agreed.
• 25:50
  You find it funny at that moment.
• 25:52
  You find it funny like. Yeah, and I'm not exactly.
• 25:54
  I'm not here saying, oh, like we shouldn't watch The Apprentice
• 25:57
  or like you Love Island is bad or whatever.
• 25:59
  Like it's free time, like you're just, you're trying to be
• 26:02
  entertained in it. Yeah, 100%.
• 26:03
  What? Makes you laugh.
• 26:05
  In it like 100 percent, 100%. I think obviously, like young
• 26:09
  people shouldn't be watching reality TV, like illiteral
• 26:12
  children, like under 12 or something, because at that point
• 26:15
  you're like, you're actually forming your view of the world
• 26:18
  and you can't differentiate between Love Island and real
• 26:22
  life dating. But other than that, play on
• 26:24
  that. Yeah, 100%.
• 26:26
  Yeah, I kind of agree with that. There is also like, I do think
• 26:31
  sometimes you you should, if a company or a business or an
• 26:36
  organisation is openly bad towards something you care
• 26:41
  about, then maybe don't watch it.
• 26:43
  But that's that. I think that's like a very
• 26:45
  specific personal thing. Yeah.
• 26:47
  And I think that's why, like, you know, I was talking about
• 26:50
  the treatment of black women earlier in Love Island's
• 26:53
  history. That's what that's what made me
• 26:55
  say bad. I would have said if you asked
• 26:57
  me then I would have said bad. But it feels like the books have
• 26:59
  been balanced a bit. And I'm like, I'm calm.
• 27:01
  Yeah, Yeah, we're happy with it. All right.
• 27:04
  Thank you for joining us today. Please let us know if you like
• 27:07
  net positive or not. I think I.
• 27:08
  Enjoyed it? Yeah, today was fun.
• 27:10
  Yeah, today was fun. They fucking flew back, isn't
• 27:12
  it? You know, not everyday
• 27:16
  existentialism. Yeah, not everyday have have.
• 27:18
  Isn't it Sunday? Is Love Island and The
• 27:20
  Apprentice all right? We'll see you soon.
• 27:22
  Take care, see you next week. Much love man.
• 27:24
  Bye. So I was going to ask you about
• 27:38
  do you see apprentice in the same vein as like Dragons Den
• 27:42
  and Shark Tank I? Guess so, but like.
• 27:45
  How? How do you feel about those two?
• 27:46
  Do you watch Dragons Den at any point?
• 27:47
  I used to obviously when I was a youth, but it's just so
• 27:50
  manufactured. I think like Dragons Den like
• 27:53
  boring. It's boring.
• 27:54
  That's basically it. Like it's a little bit boring
• 27:56
  like, so that's probably why I don't watch it like that.
• 27:58
  Yeah, fair enough. I think, I think with all these
• 28:01
  shows, the bit that hits Love Island, 1st Dates, Love is
• 28:05
  Blind, Ultimatum, all of that is about the the human stories.
• 28:08
  Yeah. And I think Dragons Den probably
• 28:10
  hasn't. Like they don't go into the
• 28:13
  story too tough. No, they don't they.
• 28:15
  Just like, make it about the interactions with the Dragons,
• 28:17
  and the Dragons aren't that interesting.
• 28:19
  No, we know them as well. Is that not new?
• 28:21
  But again, I feel like that's just a propaganda.
• 28:23
  It's like you got this poor person standing in front of the
• 28:26
  Dragons twerking like please give me cash, please give me
• 28:29
  cash. But you know this.
• 28:30
  Happens though. I know it happens, but it
• 28:33
  shouldn't happen. And I don't think they're
• 28:35
  twerking on Dragons Den on near premiers.
• 28:36
  I think they can on Dragons Den. I don't think so much they're
• 28:40
  saying, look, guys, you want in, you want in the bad boys do
• 28:45
  that. That's that's the bad.
• 28:47
  The bad girls like I've got this thing here, right.
• 28:50
  Do you want in? You can catch a little something
• 28:52
  from this right, right. That's how I kind of see it.
• 28:55
  I don't see it like, oh, on Dragons then, like please give
• 28:58
  me money. Like it's like, no, like my, my
• 29:01
  things cold. I think this would be a good
• 29:03
  opportunity. Like I have a friend actually
• 29:05
  that went on there on Jung's, then on Jung's, then they they
• 29:08
  were, they were talking about how that process is so long,
• 29:11
  man. Oh, is it?
• 29:12
  Like you're there all day and you have to obviously you have
• 29:14
  no notes. I kind of forgot that.
• 29:16
  Like you do a whole pitch like with no notes.
• 29:18
  You can't bring anything in. Nothing like but so boom, he's
• 29:21
  done the pitch, now he's got the breadth.
• 29:24
  Oh, mad and they. Turned it down.
• 29:27
  He had it. He definitely had it from
• 29:29
  Stephen. I think he had more offers and
• 29:30
  chose Stephen Bartlett, right? But he didn't even take the
• 29:33
  money in then. Well, just to.
• 29:35
  The cells go through the roof afterwards.
• 29:37
  Yeah, Yeah, you get bad marketing.
• 29:38
  Exactly. So it's like it's kind of free
• 29:40
  marketing for. Right, right.
• 29:42
  Maybe that was probably part of why I see it kind of slightly
• 29:44
  different to The Apprentice, but they go in there and they say
• 29:48
  we've got this product and basically market themselves for
• 29:51
  it. Yeah, and only take the money
• 29:52
  sometimes, really. Yeah, yeah, I think, I think
• 29:55
  maybe it's the attitude of the Dragons that annoys me a little
• 29:58
  bit. Yeah.
• 29:59
  Where they're just like, you would be so fucking lucky to get
• 30:04
  my cash. Do you know what I mean?
• 30:06
  Like, I feel that energy from them, right.
• 30:08
  Oh my God, give me a break. Like the the other people with
• 30:12
  the product and the business, they've worked their lives to
• 30:14
  get to this point. I do think they've mellowed
• 30:16
  though, Like I think I remember when I was watching when I was
• 30:18
  younger, I thought they were a little bit more rude.
• 30:20
  Now they now they deliver their messages a little.
• 30:23
  Bit bit more softer. Yeah, a little gentler.
• 30:26
  So Alan still hasn't learnt from that.
• 30:28
  And do you know what actually bugs me?
• 30:29
  This is this is probably the biggest thing that bugs me in
• 30:31
  The Apprentice when people like fake laugh to him like Oh yeah.
• 30:34
  Yeah. Joke pandering.
• 30:36
  Yeah. And I'm like, brothers, man, you
• 30:38
  know, this is on TV. Yeah, man, that's embarrassing.
• 30:44
  Yes, Sir, Yeah, no, yeah, 36 and they went quick in then.
• 30:49
  That went so far, but yeah, good shit.
• 30:53
  Probably right out of town there.
• 30:54
  Yeah, maybe.