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Creativity of the Lord · Not a Doorknob

• 0:00
  Hey there, this is the conclusion of chapter two in the big book. There is a solution and our discussion of it. We started this last week in part one. If you haven't listened to that, it's about twenty-five minutes long.
• 0:11
  You can go check that out first, and we'll see you back here. Find more information at progressimperfection.com, and enjoy the show.
• 0:19
  Um, which like we've talked about, I think maybe the first episode, maybe, I don't know, maybe it didn't make the cut, but like
• 0:26
  the idea that psychedelics could have been involved in, um, I think it was Bill's experience. Hmm. His original experience. Yeah.
• 0:33
  Because what, what like the pro-popular literature today shows is that like what psychedelics do is allow, uh, the creativity of the right brain to infiltrate the left brain. Hmm.
• 0:46
  The right side of the brain to infiltrate the rigidity of the left side of the brain and create these neural connections and neural pathways with, that without that, um, psychedelic involvement are very, very difficult to obtain.
• 0:59
  Hmm.
• 1:00
  Um, so it's just something to be thinking about, you know, just something to throw out there that I think like when, when, um, we encounter people that are enter into the program, uh, I think it's important that, that we are aware of like
• 1:15
  parts of this person's personality so that we can go about encouraging them in the correct way. Hmm. 'Cause I think that's what this, what happened to this dude. He was just rigid. [laughs] Yeah.
• 1:27
  It's not that he didn't know what to believe. He knew what to believe, uh, and he believed it. He did believe, in fact. Right. He believed it.
• 1:34
  Um, but [laughs] it was so boxed in, you know, it was so like maybe theologically boxed in that it didn't allow for the creativity of the Lord, uh, to enter into the equation. No, I like that.
• 1:48
  I'm, I'm just connecting the kind of the unlock with psychedelics, and I have zero experience with it. Mm-hmm. Nor have I studied on that like you have, but that makes a lot of sense. Mm-hmm. Especially for someone...
• 2:02
  My experience was I got sober young, and I think that really served me well to shortcut some of this 'cause I had- Yeah... not ingrained in my life and in my thinking. Hmm. I was very malleable. Right.
• 2:16
  Even though I felt like, oh, I, I act tough, and I, I, I believe this. Man, I didn't. You could put any-anything in front of me, and I would have tried it on for size. Hmm.
• 2:26
  And that served me well for getting sober at the time in my life when I did, I think. And I'm just connecting my story with what you described there as I had not built up a callousness- Hmm... to a degree where
• 2:41
  I was just continuing bullheaded along. So like I, I got a couple chances, and I relapsed once.
• 2:48
  I screwed up one of the times, but then when I came back around and had this other chance to enter into treatment, like did the full nine yards treatment out of state. Right.
• 2:58
  Uh, inpatient, outpatient, go get a job, all the, go to AA, and work the, you know, go through all the step work. Um, I, I am just picturing my internal life.
• 3:12
  The spiritual life was almost dead, but I think there was a flicker throughout all of it that I had not stamped out, and what you described as God's creativity. Is that how you put it? Mm-hmm.
• 3:25
  I mean, I, I think that really was. Hmm. That's a great way to, to understand for myself what was happening there. Hmm. 'Cause I was
• 3:33
  curious enough on my own to, all right, well, let's see what this AA stuff's about again. Maybe, maybe I'll try a little bit more than I did last time.
• 3:42
  And I was fortunate to be around people with their heads screwed on straight- Right, right... with some solid sobriety. Hmm. Not all of which I wanted to emulate, but all of which really fed into getting me on
• 3:57
  the proper path so that I could explore God again- Yeah... and reinvestigate these things that I'd been brought up in but hadn't really, I mean, hadn't, had never had a reason to get my hands dirty with. Right. Right.
• 4:10
  Right. Yeah, yeah. I, I, I love that, um, because just like as, as you're talking and as we're just thinking about it, like it, it does like... So much of a person's personality traits like
• 4:28
  can either allow them to receive the creativity that we're talking about, like the creativity that the program offers. Um, you know, if I'm, it's called openness.
• 4:42
  One of the scale is openness, and it's like creativity and things like that. And like if I'm high in openness, um, this is much more likely to take because I'm willing to give things a try. Yeah.
• 4:54
  Um- What's that scale from? Higher in agreeableness. It's called the NEO. It's, it's like a personality scale. Okay. Okay. It's been around for a long time.
• 5:01
  Um, but yeah, I'm just like making these correlations of like why it would be, and I've thought about doing some research into this, honestly. Um,
• 5:12
  but like what, what allows people to enter into recovery easier than other people? Mm-hmm. What allows it to take easier, uh, for some people?
• 5:21
  And to your situation, and even mine to a certain extent, like we were, we were pretty young, and so like our, our prefrontal cortexes aren't formed yet.
• 5:31
  So we're like, we, we are kind of a little bit just biologically speaking more open- Mm-hmm... to ideas than we would had we tried to enter into sobriety in our thirties or in our forties. Mm-hmm.
• 5:44
  And so maybe that sort of bullheadedness or stubbornness that sometimes we can see with people who come into the rooms in their later years has a lot to do with that rigidity in their personality.
• 5:56
  "What are you gonna tell me that I don't already know?" You know, "What are you gonna tell me that's outside the Bible that God can't fix for me?" Hmm.
• 6:03
  You know, and I think like what it's, what it's touching on is just this idea of like, no, it's not outside the Bible. It's actually within the Bible. But we want you to experience it rather than just to know it.
• 6:15
  That idea, even the, the imagery there of, like, the hand of God, well, that's something that's tangible.
• 6:24
  You know, and it takes a, it takes a certain amount of creativity to be able to think and be open to the idea that, like, that's something to be touched. It's something to be grasped and held. Um, and like,
• 6:39
  you follow that rabbit trail, like, the openness to be held. Mm. The vulnerability it takes to be held, um, especially by the creator of the universe. Uh, we sing this song at church,
• 6:53
  uh, a fair amount, but this idea that like... What is it? He, he welcomes me with open arms. He leadeth me. Yeah. With open arms, praise God, just as I am. Yeah. Um,
• 7:08
  but that's kinda what it's alluding to there, this idea that it's not a reed. When I think of a reed, I actually think of a tool to be chastised with. Mm. To be beat with. You know, to be- Yeah... reprimanded with.
• 7:21
  But instead, it's like this open-handedness that God reaches out to us to extend to us to, like, welcome us in. Um, but again, like, we have to be open to that idea, I guess is, is what I'm circling around.
• 7:37
  Well, and, and lastly, I'll, and I'll throw out if, if any of that is, like, starting to get too heady for anybody, like the acronym HOW. How does this work? Honesty. Can I get honest- Mm...
• 7:49
  with myself first, and with others? Open-mindedness, what we're just talking about here. Mm. You know, am I, am I... Can I actually get open to- Mm... maybe there's a solution here. Mm. Maybe some of this junk will work.
• 8:02
  Maybe even just a little bit, maybe not the whole thing, but can I get a little, can I crack the door open? And then willing. Mm. H-O-W, willing. Yeah, yeah. Okay, am I open enough?
• 8:13
  Now will I be willing to just step forward- Mm... just today, just one little step. Right. Like, do something. Right. Um, and that's- That's beautiful... I, I think that parallels with, with all that as well. Yeah.
• 8:23
  To, to bring it back to keeping it simple as well. Yeah, yeah. That's the damn simplicity of the program. It's so simple. Right? Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Um, see, that's why we're good for one another here.
• 8:33
  [laughs] I can just go crazy with the imagery and you're like, "Dude, bro." Oh. "Keep it simple." Bring on more hands of God. Keep it simple. I love it.
• 8:40
  [laughs] Uh, the distinguished American psychologist William James in his book Varieties of Religious Experience, which if you haven't read out there, it's phenomenal.
• 8:48
  It's a little, it's a little laborious, but it's a great read. A little? Yeah. Uh, indicates a multitude of ways in which men have discovered God.
• 8:55
  We have no desire to convince anyone that there is only one way by which faith can be acquired. If... Okay, well, okay. Well, let me just finish the paragraph.
• 9:07
  If what we have learned and felt and seen means anything at all, it means that all of us, whatever our race, creed, or color, are the children of a living creator with whom we may form a relationship upon simple and understandable terms as soon as we are willing and honest enough to try.
• 9:25
  Those having religious affiliations will find here nothing disturbing to their beliefs or ceremonies. There is no friction among us over such matters. Okay. What's up? Maybe, I don't know. You tell me. You tell me. Okay.
• 9:42
  Um, we have no desire to convince anyone that there is only one way by which faith can be acquired. We're back to the primary purpose of this book, which they stated earlier, maybe last week or week before. Mm-hmm.
• 9:56
  Like, we're, we're trying... We'd love it if we wrote a book that was not ruffle anybody's feathers, but we're gonna have to talk about God and religion, and we're gonna have to at least touch on these things.
• 10:07
  So they're circling back around to that and reminding themselves and us that this is here to help you find God. Right.
• 10:17
  And they're making it open enough so that wherever you're coming from, whatever walk of life, whatever spiritual or religious background- Right...
• 10:27
  y- you, you can find something that will help you with your alcoholism here. Right. This is, this is one of the phrases, though, that I think pisses the Christian community off. Definitely.
• 10:39
  That one right there in the middle. Because there is only one way. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so this, this butts up against a, a core part of, of the Christian faith- Right... and belief. Right.
• 10:51
  It's like, well, no, let's pause here. Let's, let's actually take offense at that because- Mm... um, it may be cause for offense. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, to me, I, I, I have gone way to the other side of it. Uh- Yeah...
• 11:05
  and I may, I may hike back the other way one of these days, but the, I keep going farther in the other direction the longer I stick in AA. Tell me more.
• 11:14
  Um, because to me, this is an entry point for people to stop killing themselves. Mm-hmm. Because dead people can't find God. Mm-hmm. And, and alive people can. Mm-hmm. And so I've,
• 11:27
  I, I do two things now, because I am a Christian, and I do believe there's one way. And I, I do believe that we are to seek first his kingdom. Um, but
• 11:40
  I, I, I think, I think that we can help people with their alcoholism first without beating them over the head with it. Right. Because for the person who's gonna take offense at- Right...
• 11:50
  the Christian way of life- Right... they're gonna take it real quick. Right. And even if we're gently correcting or gently telling, they're gonna... I mean, that's gonna be a, that's gonna be a red flag.
• 12:01
  That's gonna be another excuse. Right. "Well, AA, I, some Christian dude- That's-... in AA." Right. You know, "That's not for me." Mm-hmm. "Why wasn't he in Celebrate Recovery- Right... where he belongs?" Right.
• 12:14
  Um, and so I've, I've backpedaled on that. But the other part of it, too, is I've gotten more forth- forthright, for- Oh, what's that word? Forthright? Forthright. Sure. Yeah. I've gotten more vocal- Mm-hmm...
• 12:27
  about sharing about my faith from a first-person perspective in AA or around it, more often- Yeah... around it. Yeah. Whereas I used to really, I, I used to be very timid about that. Mm-hmm.
• 12:40
  And I think that's, I, I think that's wrong as well for- Mm... for a Christian. Um, but I, I don't believe in going in there and just- Right... Jesus, hurrah. Right, right.
• 12:50
  Uh- Yeah, it's interesting because, like, I see it almost on the flip side. Mm-hmm. Uh, just speaking of, and I, and I think it's written in here for, for, um, the timing of it is, is, is purposeful. Yeah.
• 13:03
  Because they're just talking about the rigidity that this guy operated with, and that guy would have read this and gone, "That's why I don't go to AA." Yeah. And what we're trying to do is, like, be open- Yeah...
• 13:15
  and be creative, and to think about that passage and think about what it says, because it doesn't identify an object of faith that it's calling you towards. Yep. And in that way, it's not problematic.
• 13:27
  It's not saying, "Put your faith in AA." Mm. It's not saying, "Put your faith in anything." Okay. It's saying just, like, how, this is how we can acquire faith. Yep.
• 13:38
  Now, sure, if it came out and said, "This is how we acquire faith in Jesus"- Yeah. That'd be different... uh, totally different, right? 'Cause some people may read it- Sure... totally different. Right. Right. Yeah.
• 13:48
  And but that's my, that's kinda my thing is, like- Mm... if you, if you have a certain amount of openness and creativity to the program of Alcoholics Anonymous, it is not, um... It runs parallel with Christianity,
• 14:05
  and it doesn't impede anyone's ability to obtain Christ. And in fact, if you're open to the program, it will, it will, [scoffs] it will lead you to Him. Yeah. It won't deter you from Him. That's been my experience.
• 14:20
  Right. That's been yours. Mm-hmm. Uh, the, the thing is it's, this is not a religious program. Like, it's not meant to be- Right... a replacement for or- Right... to be used instead of. Right. Right. Yeah.
• 14:34
  It's not, it's not dogma. Mm-hmm. Uh, at the risk of stepping on toes, it's not dogma. It's spirituality. It's not dogma.
• 14:47
  And I think, like, spirituality almost requires, by its very nature, the ability, uh, to be open- Mm-hmm... to how the spirit moves. Uh, and I think, I think that's just... It, it's indicative. I don't know.
• 15:02
  Anyways, I th- just thought that was really creative- Mm... how they wrote that. Um, we think it no concern of ours what religious bodies our members identify themselves with as individuals.
• 15:13
  This should be an entirely personal affair with each one decides for himself in the light of past associations or his present choice. Not all of us join religious bodies, but most of us favor such memberships.
• 15:26
  In the following chapter, there appears an explanation of alcoholism as we understand it, then a chapter addressed to the agnostic. Many who, many who once were in this class are now among our members.
• 15:38
  Surprisingly enough, we find such convictions no great obstacle to spiritual experience. Further on, clear-cut directions are given showing how we recovered. These are followed by 43 personal experiences.
• 15:52
  Each individual in the personal stories describes in his own language and from his own point of view the way he established his relationship with God.
• 16:00
  These give a fair cross-section of our membership and a clear-cut idea of what has actually happened in their lives. We hope no one will consider these self-revealing accounts in bad taste.
• 16:11
  Our hope is that many alcoholic men and women desperately in need will see these pages, and we believe that it is only by fully disclosing ourselves and our problems that they, that they will be persuaded to say, "Yes, I am one of them too.
• 16:26
  I must have this thing." It's the... I mean, so, uh, so term got co-opted a couple years ago, but it, it's the Me Too. Mm-hmm. I'm one of them too. Mm-hmm.
• 16:42
  And, like, it's so, it's so interesting because, like, it's the thing that people fight against the most, but it leaves, it leaves us feeling totally isolated and alone in our addiction. Mm.
• 16:55
  And if we just begin to, like, humble ourselves and recognize that there is a community that suffers alongside us, [laughs] we get to experience the remedy of, like, community, and that's so restoring.
• 17:12
  It's, uh, it, it becomes a vital part of the whole deal. It was for me. Mm-hmm. I mean, I, we can't do this. Maybe there's folks out there that can find the right path alone, but how much harder that is.
• 17:25
  It's, it's infinitely harder to do it alone. Uh, the, the community of AA, and then further as it's talking about with most of our members favor, uh, affiliation with a religious organization.
• 17:38
  Uh, I don't know if they'd use the word most today, but, you know, I think that's still largely true. Yeah. It's like we need these communities. Right.
• 17:45
  And that's a big part of the religious organizations as well, is the community, the fellowship, the, the, uh, you know, joining in arms together. Yeah. Supposed to be at least. Yep. Yeah. Um,
• 18:00
  I'm yet to find an alcoholic who experiences recovery, just in my clinical work- Yeah... who experiences recovery without community. Yeah. I can't think of a single case. Okay. I can't think of a single case.
• 18:12
  It's gotta happen then. And, and I mean, like, what I tell, like, the people I, I work with, like, find your people. Mm-hmm... at the meeting, just find your people. Mm-hmm.
• 18:26
  And if you just find the people you like going to see, the rest of it will take care of itself. Yeah. And it just speaks to just the power of, of community and just that sense of belonging and not being alone. You know?
• 18:40
  And you can remember that. You go to meetings that are awesome. You go to some meetings that are just freaking terrible. You know?
• 18:45
  Well, it's not because the meeting itself is terrible, it's just 'cause we don't get along with the people. Yep. There's still people there, so obviously, like, those people get along great, you know?
• 18:54
  But then you go to this meeting, and this one's fine, but then all of a sudden you land in this spot and it's like, whoa, these are my people. Oh, yeah. You know what I'm saying?
• 19:02
  And when you get to that point, it really is a breath of fresh air. Totally. Totally. Best meeting I ever went to, 4801 Club- 4801... back in Jack Town. You remember that? Yes.
• 19:16
  It was like a little freaking tiny little hut- Yes... like, building. And I think they had meetings when I went, it was like 6:00, 7:00, 8:00, 9:00, 10:00, 11:00, and 12:00. Yeah.
• 19:25
  And, like, the best meetings were the 11 o'clock and the 12 o'clock. [laughs] 'Cause it was, like, pimps up in there. [laughs] You know what I mean? But it was, like, gritty- Yeah... recovery. Yeah.
• 19:35
  It was like no holds barred, gritty-ass recovery. And you never knew who the hell was gonna be there. You didn't know who was gonna lead the meeting. You didn't know what was gonna happen.
• 19:46
  Um, but if anybody out there even knows me, like, those were my people. Yeah. Oh, I, I see that. That was my- I didn't know that either. Oh, yeah. But I can so see that. Oh, that was my favorite meeting.
• 19:55
  [laughs] Like, I don't know. I experienced a couple other meetings in the, in the town. I was like, man, they're fine. You know, I go to this one, that's fine. Yeah.
• 20:02
  But if I really was, like, in a tough spot, it was, like, 4801. Yeah. Maybe, and let's roll. And it may be me and, like, two other crusty old dudes in there. Yeah. But we were getting down on recovery talk.
• 20:12
  [laughs] You know? And it was just awesome. Those were my people. Oh. So shout out 4801 if you're still out there. That's awesome. Loved you. And that's what happened to me, too. I didn't go to 4801. Mm-hmm.
• 20:24
  But I also didn't go to the other, the popular clubhouse in town that all the other- Right... young kids and the people out of treatment. [laughs] I mean, that's where everybody was, dude. That place was the worst.
• 20:34
  Was, was the other club. That was the... And I- Just kidding. It was a great place. It was just great. I'm sure it was great. It was wonderful A lot of people got- Good speaker meetings. Absolutely. Great place.
• 20:43
  But for years, like, I, I showed up there, I was like, oh, crap. If I gotta do the- Totally... I'm screwed. It was like you were back at Farragut. It's like you're back in high school. It was. [laughs] It was.
• 20:53
  I'm like, oh, God, there's the cool kids. Thir- 13th grade, here we are [laughs] There's the dorks. Oh, my God, where we go? [laughs] But then I went over to Beagle Pack. Yeah. And I found, you know- Solid...
• 21:04
  the, the old crew. That's where all the old-timers, right? Yeah. It was a noon meeting. Yeah. It wasn't a night meeting. Yeah. And it was exactly what I needed. Yeah. And I, you know, I hit the other ones around- Sure...
• 21:15
  look- looking for, but I put in, I was willing to go looking for maybe there's a place where I can- That's right... actually feel like I fit in. That's right. And it takes doing some legwork. That's right.
• 21:24
  That's exactly right. You gotta d- That's right... you just gotta go to f- That's right... you know what I mean? You can't just go to one and then be like, well, screw that. It's not gonna kill you to go to a meeting.
• 21:31
  No. No. Alcohol will kill you. No. Totally. Totally. Um, and it- Totally... and it won't take long. You can canvas an ar- wherever you are. Yep.
• 21:38
  You can canvas the top five or s- there's gonna be a top five or six meetings. Yeah. I just guarantee it, wherever you are. For sure. Maybe a little more, maybe a little less. Yep. Just go to them all.
• 21:48
  But you'll find it. If you're willing, to your point. Yeah. I love the way you put it. Yeah.
• 21:51
  If you're willing to put in the legwork, legwork, you will find your people, and when you find your people, that meeting will be awesome. Yeah.
• 21:58
  And it'll be the difference between literally life and death, friendships or aloneness, recovery or, eh, kinda. Mm-hmm. Yep. And kinda does, it's not gonna c- if you, what did it say?
• 22:12
  If you're as seriously alcoholic as we were, there's no middle of the road solution. That's right. That's right. I really do believe that. I agree.
• 22:19
  And I've wafted on the, you know, waffled on that or whatever over the years. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. But man, unfortunately- Mm-hmm... I'm alcoholic. Yeah. I qualify for this. Right. And there's not a middle of the road. Right.
• 22:30
  So I gotta g- I gotta get all in. Right. And I'm not gonna get all in with little, just little old me. Right. And it's, I'm not gonna have the motivation, the energy, the wherewithal. Right.
• 22:40
  So we need that, that community. Yep. Yep. All right. That's great, man. Boom. All right. Until next time when we talk, uh, more about alcoholism. Yeah. If, if that wasn't enough. If that wasn't enough- There's more...
• 22:54
  about alcoholism. There's more about alcoholism. [laughs] Yeah. And I think, um, w- it, it basically starts step one. Yeah. The process of working through the steps. Um, so all right. Always a pleasure, man. Likewise.
• 23:06
  If you're out there, give us some questions, comments, jokes, whatever. Peace. Deuces. Hey, thanks for listening. You can join us next week when we dive into chapter three, more about alcoholism.
• 23:18
  In the meantime, find more information at progressandperfection.com, where you can subscribe to the free daily newsletter. [outro music]