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Tootsie with Nori Reed · The Bechdel Cast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast.
• 0:02
  Speaker 2: The questions asked if movies have women and them, are
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: have individualism? It's the patriarchy. Zephy and Beast start changing
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: with the Bechdel Cast.
• 0:16
  Speaker 3: Hey, tuts Hey, doll, Hey, honey, Bunny.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Hey, excuse me of that's actually not cool. Oh that's
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: not cool when you do that. And then I'm surrounded
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: by women that are like, wait, what it's not cool
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: when they do that.
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: But I have been speaking that.
• 0:34
  Speaker 4: I just watched the feminism getting.
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: Very eyes by a character who is a man. Actually.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the TUTSI episode of the Bechtel Cast.
• 0:49
  Speaker 4: My name is Jamy Loftis.
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: My name is Caitlin Toronte. This is our show where
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: Bechtel Test simply as a jumping off point. But Jamie,
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: what is the Bechdel Test.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: Bechdel Test is a media matter created by friend of
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: the show, Alison Bechtel, originally created as a bit a
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: fun joke for her excellent comic DEXs to watch out
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: for in the eighties. The version of the test we
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: use requires that two characters of a marginalized gender speak
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: to each other about something other than a man. They
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: must also have names, and the exchange should be meaningful
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: in some way. This is like zero point five percent
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: of what we talked about on the show, but still
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: my favorite way to find out that someone has actually
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: never listened to an episode.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: They're like, yeah, that's.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: You, and then you just kind of what we go
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: through the script right, No, and today this is our
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: tenth year as a podcast, and one of those episodes
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: that you're like, you think it would have happened.
• 1:52
  Speaker 4: Earlier, it just didn't.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: And I don't know if I've had this many notes
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: in quite some time.
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: I'm pages, pages and pages of notes. So much to say, oh,
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: so much to do. So let's let's cut our guest.
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: Let's get our guest on the mix. We need her
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: desperately today. Yes, she's a writer and comedian.
• 2:13
  Speaker 4: It's Nori Reid.
• 2:15
  Speaker 5: Hi. Hello.
• 2:17
  Speaker 6: I want to start just by giving a really huge
• 2:20
  Speaker 6: disclaimer that.
• 2:21
  Speaker 5: I chose Toutsy. I chose Toutsy.
• 2:24
  Speaker 6: I have never I have never seen the film. I've
• 2:27
  Speaker 6: heard of it in pop culture, referenced and shows, and
• 2:30
  Speaker 6: I've never seen it, and Caitlin and Jamie did not
• 2:34
  Speaker 6: reach out to me to do Tootsy. Okay, so save
• 2:37
  Speaker 6: the hate mail, put the pens down, put the pens down,
• 2:42
  Speaker 6: do not cancel this show.
• 2:44
  Speaker 5: They I did this. I did this.
• 2:45
  Speaker 6: Are we recording on Trinsday in visibility?
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 2:49
  Speaker 6: Yeah it put the pens down.
• 2:52
  Speaker 5: I put him down.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: There was a part of you that like, should I
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: text Norri be like you don't have to do this today?
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: Find any other.
• 3:02
  Speaker 6: Yeah, they asked me to do Tutsy on trains Day visibility.
• 3:05
  Speaker 6: I was kind of I was kinda like, uh, I mean,
• 3:08
  Speaker 6: if you want me to, I guess it sort.
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: Of gave you no choice. Yeah, yeah, you're like, you
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: have to do this.
• 3:14
  Speaker 6: You're gonna call my agent.
• 3:16
  Speaker 4: It would be really cool if you did this.
• 3:19
  Speaker 6: You guys had guns. It was so weird.
• 3:22
  Speaker 5: It was like weird.
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: We kind of tied you up a little bit.
• 3:24
  Speaker 5: I like that that part.
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: Was that part was hot Light.
• 3:29
  Speaker 6: Yeah, which Tutsy that pervert would have loved.
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh. Okay, so you had not seen this movie,
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: so no any so.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: When you said that in the email, when you were like, Titsy,
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: I've never seen it was like my god, Well, let's
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: just see what happens.
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: God.
• 3:47
  Speaker 6: First of all, like who like the fact that the
• 3:50
  Speaker 6: whole movie you have to suspend your disbelief that like
• 3:55
  Speaker 6: people don't know that that Toutsy is a man, Like
• 3:58
  Speaker 6: like that's so funny. Like everyone's just like, yeah, that's
• 4:01
  Speaker 6: a that's a that's ais woman. Right, It's like, no,
• 4:06
  Speaker 6: that's Dustin Hoffman. What are you talking about?
• 4:09
  Speaker 5: That was wild?
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: That was so wild that the Yeah, the world that
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: this movie takes place in, You're like, what are the
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: rules here? There's like even on the idea of like, oh,
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: it would be way easier for an older woman to
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: get a job than a white guy in his forties,
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: You're like, what am.
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: I he's so difficult to work with. Yeah, and men
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: who are difficult to work with famously they can't find work.
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: Just kidding.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, The premise that there is a deeply empathetic maternal
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: figure inside of every frothingly angry cisman just such a
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: strange premise.
• 4:54
  Speaker 6: Yes, if a man, if a man is short enough,
• 4:57
  Speaker 6: he has to become a woman. And that is the
• 5:00
  Speaker 6: that is the message of the movie. I'm obsessed with,
• 5:03
  Speaker 6: like acting class culture, so like I did love like
• 5:07
  Speaker 6: the footage of them and acting class and like, you know,
• 5:11
  Speaker 6: I love Barry, Like I have such a soft spot
• 5:15
  Speaker 6: for like actors.
• 5:16
  Speaker 5: So I really did love that part.
• 5:18
  Speaker 6: Of it, you know.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: Sure, Yeah, I mean there are this movie. I think
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: it has its moments, but there's so.
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: Few at far so to you, so few.
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: So this was your so this was your first? Uh
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: yeah what what give us? The give us the cliff notes?
• 5:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah? Are you a fan?
• 5:39
  Speaker 6: I there were there were moments where I was disassociating.
• 5:43
  Speaker 6: I'm gonna be honest with you, Like there are moments
• 5:45
  Speaker 6: where I had to get on my phone and like
• 5:47
  Speaker 6: go on Instagram because I was just so overwhelmed with
• 5:52
  Speaker 6: like what was going on? Yeah, he like also was
• 5:55
  Speaker 6: like such a bad person and like I was just
• 5:57
  Speaker 6: like wow, like you were awful and like that was rough,
• 6:02
  Speaker 6: Like he was just such a bad, bad person to
• 6:05
  Speaker 6: everyone in his life. Yeah, like he was just sucked.
• 6:09
  Speaker 6: Like the one part that made me laugh that I
• 6:11
  Speaker 6: really maybe I shouldn't have laughed, but it really got
• 6:14
  Speaker 6: me is towards the very end, when like when the
• 6:18
  Speaker 6: horrible like older actor on set, like the doctor what's
• 6:24
  Speaker 6: his name, oh, doctor Brewster? He goes whenever it's finally
• 6:27
  Speaker 6: revealed this whole time that tutsies a man and then
• 6:30
  Speaker 6: he gets the button and he says, does Jeremy know?
• 6:34
  Speaker 6: That really made me laugh, Like I was like, that's funny,
• 6:38
  Speaker 6: that's actually funny.
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: Because he's talking about his room Bill Murray's character.
• 6:44
  Speaker 6: Yes, Jeff, I'm so sorry go Yeah, he was like
• 6:47
  Speaker 6: he was like, does Jeff know? Like that? Really?
• 6:50
  Speaker 5: I was like, that's that's funny. Yeah, that's objectively funny.
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's a moment. That's a moment in uh
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: in a long movie.
• 6:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 7:00
  Speaker 6: And like the Fall character, like his his love interests,
• 7:04
  Speaker 6: like who is like the dummy?
• 7:06
  Speaker 5: Like I just hate I hated that. I hated that, like.
• 7:10
  Speaker 6: She was being pushed around and like lied to and
• 7:13
  Speaker 6: was like the.
• 7:13
  Speaker 5: Dumk Terry Guard character. I just like hated that.
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: I yeah, the Crime of because Terry. I think Terry
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: gar is giving a really good performance in a movie
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: that just like doesn't.
• 7:25
  Speaker 4: Deserve her at all.
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, that scene where she's yelling at her
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: I was like, she's so good in like her big
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: scene and then she disappears, she falls off the Cloe cliff.
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: Yes, I have so many notes about her. There's there's
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: too much Jamie. What is your relationship with this movie?
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: This?
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: I feel like probably a lot of people have it.
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: So my mom loved this movie, which I watched. There's
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: like a free version of this movie on YouTube, and
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: I was going through the comments because there was a
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: ton of views on it, and I was seeing that
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: a lot of like, Oh, my mom loved this movie
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: and we watched it together. So I remember my mom
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: sitting me down and watching this movie with me in
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: probably high school. I remember liking it at the time,
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: and I hadn't really come back to it since. So
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: I came back Leary being like, well, a lot of
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: changes I was in high school. I'm a completely different
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: person and this could just go so many ways, and
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: I did not like the way that it went. I
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: am not a fan of this movie, but it's one
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: of those movies that people still, I mean people our
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: age still will really go to bat for in a
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: way that I don't know.
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: I was Coleman through letterboxed.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: I was like, what do people say about the movie
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: TUTSI in the mid twenty twenties, and it is still
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: I think, like kind of delusionally praise the elements of
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: this movie that just like, maybe it seemed intriguing in
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: nineteen eighty two, but I'm like, I don't think that
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: there's really a case for it.
• 9:08
  Speaker 4: I'm sure there's.
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: A nostalgia component.
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: I'm sure.
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: I mean, for the time in nineteen eighty two, there
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: were hardly any movies that were addressing gender as a
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: concept and feminism and women trying to stand up for
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: themselves and be empowering, and like, this just was not
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: a thing that was happening in most movies of this era.
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: So I imagine that's why, like people of our mom's generation,
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: and especially women of our mom's generation, really hold this
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: movie close to their hearts.
• 9:41
  Speaker 4: But yeah, revisiting it.
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: Now, you're just like, I don't we need to circlettack.
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: Like what's going on in this movie. I like Dorothy.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: I hate Michael Darcy Dorsey. I couldn't hate Michael Dorsey
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: more if I try a piece of shit, And I
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: just I object with the I'm like, Dorothy would have
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: nothing to do with Michael Dorsey.
• 10:08
  Speaker 6: And she's she is hot. I mean like, like, yeah,
• 10:11
  Speaker 6: the most unbelievable part of the movie is that Dorothy
• 10:15
  Speaker 6: and Jessicaalaine Ling's character Julie. Yeah, that's the fact that
• 10:20
  Speaker 6: they didn't hook up is so it's like they they
• 10:23
  Speaker 6: would have hooked up if this was real life, Like
• 10:25
  Speaker 6: they would have had sex. Like like Dorothy's so hot,
• 10:28
  Speaker 6: She's like really, like she's got it.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: And like exactly what Julie's looking for to Like.
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: Julie's inviting her over late at night. Literally they're having
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: so much wine together, like so much wine.
• 10:41
  Speaker 5: She's like, you're so beautiful, like come on, stop.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: The soft focus meeting her like family, like her baby,
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: She's in love. I have the character. I mean, I
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't like the movie. I think
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: some of the characters are interesting, but they're just like
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: where it they end up is so like Julie's ending
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: is so depressing. I'm like, do not under any circumstance
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: of state. Michael Dorsey, no get away from him. Sandy
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: Lester's disappeared from the movie.
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: Anyways. I don't know. It's a weird one.
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: I under Yeah, I think that this is a big
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: nostalgia movie for people. But if it's been a while,
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: give it another watch maybe and get back to us. Uh.
• 11:23
  Speaker 4: Kaitlyn what's your history with TUTTI.
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: I saw this during the Great Kaitlyn movie binge of
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: two thousand and five, and major huge, yeah, huge, Yeah.
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: I thought it was corny as hell and low key bad.
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: I did not like it at all. I thought, good
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: for you, and not for the same not for the
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: exact same reasons. I don't like it today, but I
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: think there is some overlap. I've never liked the Michael
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: Dorsey character. I don't care about his problems or his journey,
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: and like you were saying, Nori, I was having a
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: hard time suspending my disbelief.
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: Also, they just like promote Dorothy to showrunner like out
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: of know They're like, well, she's gonna do what she's
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: gonna do. I was like, have you ever seen how
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: people treat actors? They're like, shut up, meet puppet, get
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: it right.
• 12:12
  Speaker 4: Like it's so.
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: Rare, and like there was just so much about Like
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: I don't think Dustin Hoffman was doing a good job
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: because there are a lot of roles where CIS men
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: play women in a movie or a show. I'm thinking
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: of Louis Anderson, especially in Baskets. Yeah, constantly forget that
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: that's Louie Anderson at.
• 12:38
  Speaker 6: A certain point, you're like, Okay, that is a trans
• 12:40
  Speaker 6: woman and we have to be honest about that.
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so it can be done very well. Not to
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: the same degree, but I think John Travolta as the
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: mom and Hairspray, Like, sometimes I'll be watching these characters
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: and I'm like, think, I forget that that's.
• 12:56
  Speaker 6: Summer, Like my yeah, you're like, that is high school girl,
• 13:02
  Speaker 6: like you.
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: Just that's a girl. That's a teenage girl, yes, for sure.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: And then there's Dustin Hoffman doing whatever the hell that
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: is with Dorothy, like with that accent, his idea of
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: what a woman acts and moves like it just felt
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: so cartoonish and goofy to me because, unlike you, Jamie,
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: I do not like Dorothy. I think she's better than
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: Michael Dorsey, but.
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: I fives by comparison.
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: And I also like the character that Dorothy plays, Miss Kimberly.
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: I find her grading like the whole performance. I just
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: I don't. I have never liked this movie. I never
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: felt compelled to watch it again, and so revisiting it
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: for this episode, like twenty years after the first time
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: I saw it. I also was like, kind of I
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: think I had, like Mendela affected myself with this movie.
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: I thought it had. I thought the themes of like
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: and he lives as a woman for a while and
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: that really teaches him a lesson about how sexist he
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: used to be.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: Well, I think that that's what people thought the takeaway
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: was at the time. I think that is a popular
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: narrative around this movie. And then you watch it, you're like, and.
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: Then you watch it and that barely happens.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: No, he the movie would have it that, like, he
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: invents feminism and then ignores it and.
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: Then ignores it and learns nothing from it. Yeah, yes,
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: that is the trajector of the story. So anyway, Yeah,
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: it was a very interesting we rewatch. We have so
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: many notes, so much to discuss. Let's take a quick
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: break and then we'll come back for the recap. Sure,
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: and we're back.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: Well, what happens in Tutsie, I'll tell you.
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: We meet Michael Dorsey Boo by Dustin Hoffman Boo. Michael
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: is an actor who we see teaching acting classes, putting
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: on theater makeup and fake mustaches and all that stuff.
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: He's auditioning for various roles and stage plays and things.
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: But he keeps getting rejected. They're always looking for someone
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: else for money. Michael works at a restaurant as a
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: waiter with his playwright friend slash roommate Jeff played by
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: Bill Murray.
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: Also, I totally memory holed Bill Murray being in this
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: movie in a pretty large role. I was like, I,
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: I just I didn't remember. Also, in my memory, Geena
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: Davis is the lead, not Jessica Lang.
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: There's so much Mandela effect with this movie.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, including it being good. There's so many weird things
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: about this but yeah, yeah, Bill Berry, we can't get
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: around it.
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: There he is, He's there, and he and Michael are
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: trying to raise eight thousand dollars to put on a
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: play that Jeff wrote. Also a part of this production
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: that they're trying to put on is their friend Sandy
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: played by Terry Garr, an actor who is prepping for
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: an audition for a soap opera and Michael coaches her,
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: but she doesn't get the part. Then, Michael finds out
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: that he didn't get a part in a play that
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: he was supposed to be up for, so he goes
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: to his agent, George played by the director of this movie,
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: Sidney Pollock, to be like what the heck George, and
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: George reveals that Michael has a reputation of being very
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: difficult to work with and no one will hire him.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: But you know who people do love the hire middle
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: aged women. They're the most working as people in the world,
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: as we all know.
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: So off screen, Michael decides to start presenting as a
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: woman to try to get so we cut to him
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: in a dress, wig makeup. He has decided to become
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: Dorothy Michaels since no one will hire Michael Dorsey. But
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: he's only going to do this for auditions. He's not
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: going to like live as a woman because he is
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: still a sis man.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: He goes for an audition for the same role that
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: Sandy got rejected from a soap opera called Southwest General.
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: Dorothy also gets turned down at first because she's seen
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: as not the right type. She's too soft and delicate.
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: So Dorothy gives an impassioned speech that shows that she
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: can be.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: To the events feminism she events feminism on the soap opera.
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and the director, Ron Carlyle played by Dabney Coleman,
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: is impressed by this and casts Dorothy in the role
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: of Miss Kimberly, the hospital administrator. And so just just
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: to clarify, we've got Dustin Hoffman playing the character of
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: Michael Dorsey, who is playing the character of Dorothy Michaels,
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: who was playing the character of Miss Kimberly. Yes, so
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: there's so many layers. It's like Shrek with onions. Onions
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: have layers, very onion like performance. Yes.
• 18:40
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: So during the audition, Dorothy meets Julie Nichols played by
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: Jessica Lang.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: Who what an oscar for being in this movie.
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: Which I guess I sure weird wain to be weird.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, she's a good you know, like, yeah, she's
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: doing a good job. And I'm like, was it huh, It's.
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: Not like a standout performance or anything.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: No, I thought she was Geena Davis for half the movie.
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, Okay. So Julie is a cast member who
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: plays a nurse on this soap opera and Dorothy slash
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: Michael takes an instant liking to Julie. He's got a
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: little crush. Then Michael, still dressed as Dorothy, approaches his
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: agent George and reveals like, oh it's me Michael, and
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: tells George that he auditioned as Dorothy and landed the
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: role of Miss Kimberly, and George is horrified by all
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: of this. He thinks that Michael is sick in the head.
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: Then a short time later, Michael as himself is hanging
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: out with Sandy. She doesn't know that he is pretending
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: to be this Dorothy person, especially because Dorothy landed the
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: role that Sandy was trying to get and that would
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: be a huge betrayal to their friendship, something that which
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: Michael keeps secret the whole time.
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: So yeah, now we're introducing the classic element of deceiving
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: women for most.
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: Of the movie.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: It's so bizarre though, because it's like the movie tries
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: to rationalize it in this way. Many times, it almost
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: seems like intentionally to keep Sandy excluded from being anything
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: except a like desperate love interest basically, where yeah, like
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: she is like Bill Murray's in on it the whole time.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: Bill Murray and the agent. They're making these nasty little
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: comments to Michael that I think intended to make Michael
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: look like a better person by comparison, even though he
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: fucking sucks, but like Sandy, the whole premise of it
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: is like, oh well, she's too emotional to handle knowing
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: that I did this thing, like and and did it,
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: you know, after she failed to get this job. But
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: it's like they're like, well, I would tell her, but
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: she it's just so old school, like they're like, I would,
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: but she's too hysterical to handle the plot of the
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: movie TUTSI.
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: I'm like, well, then what is she doing here?
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: Well, you called her love interest, but she's a love
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: interest that he's not interested in.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: No, she's interested in him. I mean that's I feel
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: like that happens to a lot of like comic actors,
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: a lot like Terry garr undisputably haughty, right, but like sure,
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: she's presented as too emotionally fragile and less desirable than
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: Jessica Lang, just like by the story and by the
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: fact that Michael is like not interested in her and
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: therefore feels comfortable treating her like shit because he's not
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: attracted to her, so no need.
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: To treat her like a person.
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: Certainly, Yeah, although they do have sex, because what happens
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: next is she leaves to take a shower. They're about
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: to like go grab some food or something. Michael undresses
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: to try on some of her clothes because he's been
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: shopping for women's clothes to play this Dorothy character. And
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: then Sandy walks in on Michael while he's almost naked,
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: and he plays it off as he wants her, he's
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: attracted to her. Cut to they've just had sex, and
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: then she's like, you'll probably ignore me now, and he's like, no,
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: I won't.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: I know he does, and then he does, and then
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: he just does for basically the rest of the movie. Yeah,
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: and then he'll show up and be like, hey, sorry,
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: I'm late by seven hours and she's like, oh, all good.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: It was like Sandy, Sandy, God, yeah, yeah, that.
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: Scene was disturbing. I did not like that scene.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: And it is not the most coercive, disgusting scene in
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: the movie.
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: They save that for the very end.
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: Yes, oh god, Okay, So Michael as Dorothy heads to
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: the first day of shooting the soap opera, Dorothy finds
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: out that her character on the show has to kiss
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: a man. We'll talk more about this, but Dorothy is
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: uncomfortable because Michael is uncomfortable with kissing a man. So
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: Dorothy stands up for herself and she changes the scene,
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: goes off script, and everyone's like, sure, okay, that works too,
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: And this is the beginning of have Dorothy either have
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: either of you.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: Ever performed in like where you're like, hey, I would
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: like to make an extreme change to the script, and
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: everyone's just like, all right, we have no choice, Like
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: it is just so bizarre.
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that usually does not happen like that.
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: I don't know any soap opera heads in the crowd.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: Can you just be like, actually, no, I know that
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: that's not true, but it is very weird that they
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: present it as true and the fact that no if
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: that this is true, and no one else has ever
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: taken advantage of it before, Like, no one else goes
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: off book for the entire unless unless Julie does it
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: at one point and I'm not remembering, but.
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: I think only in response to dorit they got it.
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, No, Usually that gets you fired if you're just
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: continuously going off book for the role that you that
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: lines are written for you and you're expected to say
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: those lines as written. If you don't do that, you
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: get fired.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: But but people love Dorothy Michael. People are going cuckoo
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: for Dorothy Michaels, which I again like I it's I guess,
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: like an interesting idea that like they're like, oh, Dorothy's
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: character not even heard. Like Dorothy's character seems to really
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: appeal to, like working in single women and like appeal
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: to middle aged women, which is an interesting idea. Unfortunately,
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: there are no middle aged women in the movie to
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: really engage with. Like you meet a producer at the beginning,
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: there's like two women on set who fall into this
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: age range, and I'm like, well, I wonder what she
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: thinks about this, but they you never really find out,
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: and so it just becomes this weird detail that Dorothy
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: Michaels appeals to middle aged women because the women we
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: meet are like hot young women.
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: So I don't know.
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, right, Because Dorothy's episodes of Southwest General start airing
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: on TV and people are becoming like huge fans of Dorothy,
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: they're flocking to get her signature. Her co stars Julie
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: and April Page, who's the Geena Davis character, also really
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: appreciate Dorothy's work on the show. Ron the director isn't
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: so great because he's sexist and he's always being condescending
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: to Dorothy and to Julie.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's very much like the worst guy ever character
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: again that like we see all the time to make
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: the other shitty guys in the room seem nicer by comparison,
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: Like he's just so awful that you're like, well, no
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: one's gonna see themselves in this guy, so maybe they'll
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: think Michael Dorsey is awesome?
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: Is that the actor who plays the horrible sexist boss
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: in nine to five?
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: Oh?
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: I think it is.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: Maybe I haven't seen nine to five since we covered
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: it a long time ago.
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I recognized him, and then I was like, I
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: think that, So he's basically playing the same character in
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: both movies if I'm thinking correctly. Wild Okay, yeah, but anyway,
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: then Julie invites Dorothy over for dinner to run some
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: lines as well, which is exciting to Michael because he's
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: got a big crush one. But he shows up as Dorothy.
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: They bond and have a nice time. But oh no,
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: Michael remembers he was supposed to have dinner with Sandy.
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: This is the second time and there will be more
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: after this that he has blown her off or were
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: forgotten that they had plans.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't tell how much of this I know that,
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: like we're obviously we're meant to feel for Sandy, but
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: sometimes her being stood up, I feel like it's like
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: visually supposed to kind of be a joke because we
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: see her like alone and drinking alone, and she forgives
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: him so quickly. I'm just like, I don't even know
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: how I'm meant to be feeling right now.
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: I feel bad, But like.
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: I think we're meant to pity her more than empathize
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: with her.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, that is a great way to put it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: I think we are sort of encouraged to view Sandy
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: as kind of pathetic in a way that is like upsetting.
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, Terry guards her better. Yeah, Okay, So
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: Michael rushes over to Sandy's place. She's still upset that
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: she didn't get that part on Southwest General. She thinks
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: that Dorothy and her character Miss Kimberly suck, and this
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: is partly because she doesn't strike Sandy as the tough
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: character Miss Kimberly was supposed to be. So Dorothy starts
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: changing the script even more and making up her own
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: lines that are more quote unquote empowering to women, and
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: the fans are loving it even more. Dorothy gets a
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: bunch of fan mail. She does all these photo shoots.
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: She ends up on the cover of several magazines. Then
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: Michael goes to a party where he sees Julie, and
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: even though he's there with Sandy, he goes up to
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: Julie and try to hit on her, but she throws
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: a drink in his face. We'll talk more about the
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: whatever the love story between them, But then Julie invites
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: Dorothy to spend the weekend with her, her baby, and
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: her dad, Less played by Charles Derning, who has taken
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: a liking to Dorothy. Old Less has a big old
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: crush on Dorothy.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, him and his bad politics and his dead wife.
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: And then this weekend getaway with all of these people
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: is I think one of the corniest sequences ever committed
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: to film.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: What the hell is that song playing? I think it's
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: an original song for this movie. I'd never heard it before.
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know.
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: What the hell was that.
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: It was no good And the whole time Michael dressed
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: as Dorothy because Julie doesn't know that Dorothy is actually Michael,
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: but Dorothy's like looking at Julie longingly. They have to
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: sleep in the same bed because even though this house
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: is huge, there's only one bed in one bedroom for
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: them to sleep in together. Meanwhile, Les is pining after Dorothy. Yeah,
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: this fucking guy. He goes on a tirade about gender.
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: He's very pro traditional gender roles.
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: He starts it like many scary fathers slash grandfathers, where
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: he's like, so, let me start by saying do whatever
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: you want, but and then says something extremely regressive or hateful.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: So I'm like, okay, so don't so don't do whatever
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: you want. Anyways, it's firmly nineteen eighty three. It is
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: the Reagan administration.
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, in this it sure is. Then Dorothy finds out
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: that her contract is being extended on this soap opera
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: for another year. But Michael doesn't want to keep playing
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: this Dorothy and by extension miss Kimberly character, so he's
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: trying to get out of it.
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: He wants to go play like let us off Broadway
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: or whatever the fuck. I kind of I'm like, you
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: can just tell, and I think this is intentional. You
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: can just tell based on the description of Bill Murray's
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: play that it's fucking awful, Like, oh, this sounds rank and.
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: He's such a pretentious piece of shit.
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: Then Julie asks Dorothy if she can babysit for Julie's
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: baby while she goes and breaks up with Ron the
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: director because Dorothy has empowered and inspired Julie to not
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: put up with Ron's bullshit and his mistreatment, and then
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: returns home. After this, she's sad the relationship is over.
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: She's feeling lonely, and Dorothy tries to kiss Julie because
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: Dorothy is actually Michael and Michael is in love with Julie,
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: but Julie doesn't know any of that, and so she
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: thinks Dorothy is a lesbian and she's like, oh, no,
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: thank you, Yucky. I don't want to be friends anymore.
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: It feels I this.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: I'm sure this comparison has been made before, but it
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: feels very similar in well, not similar in tone necessarily,
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: but like it's like a Mulan thing going on here,
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: where I feel like it's they're tolding this very specific
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: line to like reinforce well, ultimately, all of these characters
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: are straight where it's like, oh, there's an attraction between
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: these people, but something isn't quite right, like m hm,
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: and so the movie, can you know, have it all
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: always and we can still end with like a sister
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: couple at the end of them movie.
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: Right, So, then Julie's dad less is like, hey, Dorothy,
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: will you marry me? And Julie is all like, oh
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: my god, you're gonna have to tell my dad that
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: you're a lesbian and all this stuff.
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it becomes all of a sudden so urgent for
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: Dorothy to out her I mean, at least Julie's mind,
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: for Dorothy to out herself to a guy she's met
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: one time, Like, You're like, that's no, there's no, what.
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: Is so ridiculous? Yeah, he's he's proposing after knowing Dorothy
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: for like two seconds. Then there's a scene where John
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: Van Horne, who is the actor who plays the doctor
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: Doctor Brewster in the soap opera. He has stalked Dorothy
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: all the way home. He's trying to get into her apartment.
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: He manipulates his way inside, then assaults Dorothy.
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, he stares to rape her.
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: Yes, it's yeah, and only doesn't when Jeff comes in
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: and he handles this whole thing. Everyone handles this whole
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: thing very either poorly or bizarrely.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but John, I just kind of drop it after it,
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: after it happens where he, like Michael is just like whoa.
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, John leaves. But then Sandy shows up and Michael
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: has to hurried lee, you know, like shower off all
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: of his Dorothy makeup, and Sandy's like, why aren't you
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: returning my calls? And he's trying to play the whole
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: thing off. He continues to lie to her. She calls
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: him out for his dishonesty. We'll talk more about this
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: scene and their whole relationship, but she ends up storming out,
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: and so now Michael is at a loss for what
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: to do. His friend Sandy is him his love interest.
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: Julie doesn't want to be friends with him slash Dorothy
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: anymore because she's homophobic. Michael doesn't want to be Dorothy anymore.
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: But he's stuck in this contract on this soap opera.
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: And on top of all of that, the editor of
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: the show spilled celery juice, and.
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: Juice exists, and I'm like, it's been what was happening
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: in the eighties, I don't know, but he's spilled.
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: The editor spilled celery juice all over the footage. So
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: they have to do a scene live on TV, so
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: Dorothy takes that opportunity to remove her wig and makeup
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: and drop the falsetto voice and reveal that the character
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: Miss Kimberly is actually a man, her brother Edward, giving
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: this whole soap opera explanation for why everyone is like,
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: oh my god. Julie walks up to Michael and punches him,
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: and now Michael is really really sad. He pushes over
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: a mime in a park.
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: I forgot about that and I watched this movie yesterday.
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: He does push over a mime and crushes over a mime.
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: He meets up with Less to give the engagement ring back,
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: and Less is disgusted and humiliated because he's also homophobic
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: like father, like daughter, But Michael's like, well, I'm in
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: love with your daughter. Julie unless is like, eah, all right,
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: but just so you know, she never talks about you
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: or anything. So then Michael, despite that, approaches Julie to
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: try to like smooth things over, and she's still pissed
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: at him, and he gives this like barely an apology.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: And crucially, she says, I miss Dorothy and then yeah,
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: which is intriguing. But then he's like, well, I'm Dorothy,
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: you're my girlfriend now, and she's like, hmmm, maybe I am.
• 37:05
  Speaker 4: And you're like, what a bleak ending? Yeah?
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's how it ends. So let's take a
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: quick break and we'll come back to discuss.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: And we're back, Okay, I mean, where to where beget Nori?
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: Is there any place you wanna you want to start?
• 37:37
  Speaker 6: I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know.
• 37:40
  Speaker 7: I don't know.
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: There's just too much. Should we start with a little
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: bit of context, I guess for this and then we
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: can really dive. Sure, there's not a whole lot, but
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: this movie was inspired by a play that a writer
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: named Don Maguire wrote in the early seventies called Would
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: I Lie to You? About an unemployed male actor who
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: cross dresses to find jobs. The script was shopped around
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: Hollywood for years. It went through different rewrites, different producers
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: and directors were attached, different stars were attached, and then
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: the script eventually was shared with Dustin Hoffman, who wanted
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: the role and also wanted complete creative control of the project.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: So Dorothy Michaels coated behavior.
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, He's like, I'm just gonna do whatever the hell
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: I want and no one can say anything about it. Yeah,
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: and he wanted Sidney Pollock to direct, and to try
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: to get him interested, Dustin Hoffman approached Elaine May to
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: do a rewrite of the script, and she did a
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: couple things. She added the Bill Murray character Jeff. She
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: fleshed out Sandy's character, so Sandy was even less thought
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: out than she currently is.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: So what am so?
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: I'm guessing?
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: Elaine May added, like Sandy's one good scene. Maybe I
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: don't know.
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: I yeah, let's go with that. Let's go with that. Yeah,
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: so she made different changes. Elaine May is not credited
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: as one of the writers, but she did this rewrite.
• 39:14
  Speaker 6: Of course not of course, of.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: Course, we don't want to We don't want to get
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: the ugly idea that women were involved in this production.
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah. The crediteds Greade writers are Larry Gilbert and Murray Shishkel.
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: And then before production began, Dustin Hoffman worked with a voice,
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: speech and body language expert named Lillian Glass to learn
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: how to speak and have the body language of a woman, which, again,
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: to me, the performance he gives feels very just like
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: weird and stilted and like he is capital p performing
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: woman or like his bizarrow idea of what a woman is.
• 40:01
  Speaker 6: Like Yeah, and the accent was just like it really
• 40:05
  Speaker 6: blew me away. It was like so strange, Like there
• 40:08
  Speaker 6: was a stutter that he put into it, which.
• 40:11
  Speaker 5: Was so like what was that choice?
• 40:13
  Speaker 6: Like that, like like the he would stutter and it
• 40:17
  Speaker 6: was like, why is that part of this woman's experience?
• 40:21
  Speaker 6: I don't.
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: He's just like he's always doing too much. Like there's
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: just always this energy of like Oscar nomination for me
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: in all of his roles.
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: I mean, I think Rainman is the most egregious.
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: Of those, but like sure, but like he's just always
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: trying to get an Oscar. I there was an interview
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: that he did maybe ten years ago around this and
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: if you can listen to other Bechdel Cast episodes for
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: you know it doesn't Hoffmann fucking sucks.
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: As a person, bad bad guy.
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: But there was an interview he did about this because like,
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: I don't know, once the credits are rolling, I was
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: just like, who is this really?
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: Like who is this movie for?
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: And I feel like he kind of gets at it
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: unintentionally in this interview because he gets very emotional talking
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: about Titsy he's crying, Oh my yeah, And you're like, god,
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: I love actors, but if he's so irritating, he's he's crying, crying, crying,
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: And he says this. He's talking about the process of like,
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: you know, finding Dorothy basically, and the accent and all
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: these things, and towards the end of the interview, he
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: says that he was feeling emotional and talking to his
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: wife about it and said that the reason the character
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: appealed to him is because, quote, there are too many
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: interesting women I haven't had the experience of knowing in
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: this life because I have been brainwashed. That was never
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: a comedy for me unquote. So what are you saying
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: there is that he has never in his life considered
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: talking to a woman he's found unattractive, and so by
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: playing a woman that he did not find attractive, that
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: actually was life changing for him. And he was crying
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: about this, and you're like, Okay, so I guess the
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: movie is for whoever feels that way, like.
• 42:10
  Speaker 6: Sociopaths, like people who don't experience the emotion or feeling
• 42:15
  Speaker 6: of empathy, and they have to actually become that human
• 42:20
  Speaker 6: being to feel any possible empathy. So Tyra Banks. I
• 42:26
  Speaker 6: think that is who.
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: This Yeah, Dustn't Hoppen and Tyra Banks should really sit
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: down and try to define empathy together.
• 42:36
  Speaker 4: And just I don't know. First of all, I don't
• 42:39
  Speaker 4: buy that.
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: This movie uh changed his views on women anyways, similar to.
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: How him playing a woman in the movie, like the
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: Michael Dorsey character seemingly learns no lessons. Yea, the movie
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: wants you to think he learns a lesson, but when
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: you look closer, what growth does he actually clear demonstrate?
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: I would argue very little. I just want to go
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: through how I have a monologue, if you'll indulge me,
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: not unlike Dorothy giving all of her monologues. Yeah, okay,
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: So we have Michael Dorsey as sis man, dressing in
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: disguise more or less as a woman so that he
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: can try to get acting roles. So first of all,
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: he's literally taking a man, taking away jobs and income
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: from women.
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: While playing into all of these like horrific still persistent
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: stereotypes around drag.
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and through this character, through Dorothy and then again
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: by extension miss Kimberly. All these fans fall in love
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: with Miss Kimberly because she's bold, she's assertive, she's empowering,
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: she stands up to sexism. Women want to be like her,
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: and the show is more popular than ever because of
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: this Miss Kimberly character. There's even a producer who says
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: something like, you're the first woman character who is her
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: own person, who can assert her own personality without robbing
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: someone of theirs. And it's like, Okay, well that's a
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: fault of the writer's room for not writing any dynamic
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: women characters.
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: But anyway, well, yeah, that again that producer character, Like,
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: I was interested when she first shows up, but then
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: it's like you sort of are led to believe she
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: has no power on what happens in the show, that
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: it seems like she's in charge of.
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: Right, Just like, what wouldn't this be within your power?
• 44:40
  Speaker 4: Maybe I miss.
• 44:41
  Speaker 3: Something I don't know shrug, But anyway, so Miss Kimberly
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: is regarded as this beloved, empowering woman, the only woman
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: character like that on this soap opera. But again, the
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: actor playing her is actually a cis man, and so
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: we have to think about, well, what are the implications
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: of that here? And I have a whole list of options.
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: I'm curious what y'all think of this because of the
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: specific choices that Michael is making for Dorothy slash Miss Kimberly,
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: Like he's the one changing all of these lines of
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: dialogue and like making this character more assertive, And so's
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: the movie suggesting like, oh, yeah, well, only a man
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: would think to like take these creative liberties and do
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: something like that. Sure playing into the notion that men
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: are just inherently more assertive and dominant. Or is it
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: suggesting that because men are socialized to be more assertive
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: and dominant and women are socialized to be polite and delicate,
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: that a man pretending to be a woman is the
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: only way a woman character could be assertive and dominant
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: because of the way people of different genders are so
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: socialized differently. Or is the movie trying to comment on
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: the one dimensional tropy ways that characters who are women
• 46:11
  Speaker 3: tend to be written, especially by writers who are men.
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: Because the Miss Kimberly character is originally written to be
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: more flat and stereotypical, Julie's nurse character on the show
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: is similarly flat and stereotypical. But if this is commentary,
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: I would argue that it is not very effective because again,
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: a cisman who has lived his whole life as a
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: misogynist being the one who sheds light on this and
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: opens everyone's eyes to the way women are being represented
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: on screen. You know, not the best person to deliver
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: this message, yea.
• 46:47
  Speaker 4: Or is it.
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: Saying that people will finally listen about sexism when it's
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: a man pointing it out, because this happens all the
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: time in real life, where people who are pressed and
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: marginalized will point out that they are being oppressed and marginalized,
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: and no one listens until people with privilege point out
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: that others are oppressed and marginalized, and then everyone starts
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: to listen to that. I don't think it's that one,
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: But there's just all these weird I say.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: My takeaway I when I wish I had asked my
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: mom what her takeaway was at the time, because I
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: think that's a good interesting study. But like I think
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: what they're trying to do here, and then like in
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: the context of the story, it doesn't really work or
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: makes sense. I mean, so much of this doesn't worker
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: make sense. It's kind of upsetting. But that like I
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: think that it's like, oh bye, the tyrebanksy by embodying
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: Dorothy Michael's able to learn empathy for women. But that's
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: really not how the story plays out. But I do
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: think that that was maybe a lot of people's takeaway.
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: If I were to hazard a guess at what my
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: mom took away at the time, I think it was that.
• 48:00
  Speaker 6: And if it, yeah, Like, if it was that, then
• 48:04
  Speaker 6: the reveal would be so much different. Like in his
• 48:08
  Speaker 6: like reveal where it's live on camera and he's revealing
• 48:13
  Speaker 6: that he's actually a man, it would have had some
• 48:16
  Speaker 6: dialogue around, like, and I learned that from being my
• 48:21
  Speaker 6: sister that you guys treat women in a really bad
• 48:24
  Speaker 6: way because I'm her brother and I'm a man, and
• 48:27
  Speaker 6: I like there would have been dialogue around how he
• 48:30
  Speaker 6: played he was his sister and he now knows that
• 48:35
  Speaker 6: you know women like but like literally there was.
• 48:39
  Speaker 5: None of that.
• 48:40
  Speaker 6: And like, after he's revealed to be a man, there's
• 48:43
  Speaker 6: no reflection nothing. It goes directly into him trying to
• 48:49
  Speaker 6: repair any relationship that he can to have sex with
• 48:53
  Speaker 6: Jessica Lang and he literally like goes to the bar,
• 48:57
  Speaker 6: Like the bar scene with her father is one of
• 49:00
  Speaker 6: the weirdest fucking scenes. I think that Ever, when he's
• 49:04
  Speaker 6: like he's like I am a man. Like like it
• 49:06
  Speaker 6: goes back to like don't worry. I'm a man and
• 49:09
  Speaker 6: I'm gonna.
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: And I'm not gay, I don't not worry about bad and.
• 49:12
  Speaker 6: I want to buy you a beer as a man,
• 49:15
  Speaker 6: and like, what are man, I'm gonna have.
• 49:16
  Speaker 5: Sex with your daughter?
• 49:18
  Speaker 6: I was like, what the fuck is going on? What
• 49:21
  Speaker 6: is happening? Like nearly fifteen minutes before this father was
• 49:26
  Speaker 6: trying to have sex with Dorothy and like literally now
• 49:30
  Speaker 6: Dorothy's like, I'm a man, Like I was like, what
• 49:32
  Speaker 6: is going.
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: It's took the people who the movie lets us see
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: their reaction versus the people that we don't. Is so
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: telling because it's like, personally, I don't give a shit
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: what Wes thinks.
• 49:46
  Speaker 4: Of all this.
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: I am curious what happens with Terry Garr. But the
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: last thing we the last we see of her, she's
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: like what and that's it, Like She's gone, yeah. This
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: movie is like it's just so ultimately around like whatever
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: anything it might that people thought it was trying to say.
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: I feel like it really back pedals on at the
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: very last minute where it's like, but to be clear,
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: we were all straight systems, straight no worries.
• 50:14
  Speaker 4: Let's drink a beer.
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: Let's crack up cole One, Let's let's let's uh, let's
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: put some P and to V and go.
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: Not men are men and women are women, And don't
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: get it confused.
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: Okay shows up to her place of work. He's like,
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: you're my girlfriend now, and let's get out of here.
• 50:31
  Speaker 6: My favorite character was like, I feel like the beginning,
• 50:34
  Speaker 6: there's a crew member who has a headset. She's black,
• 50:38
  Speaker 6: and like I feel like she's like the only character
• 50:40
  Speaker 6: who like knows that Dorothy's a man. Like I feel
• 50:44
  Speaker 6: like like there's moments where she's kind of like looking around,
• 50:46
  Speaker 6: kind of just.
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: Like y'all see missed, Like what are we doing?
• 50:50
  Speaker 5: Like like what is happening?
• 50:52
  Speaker 6: Like I feel like I trusted her with my life,
• 50:54
  Speaker 6: Like I was like, this woman knows exactly what's going on,
• 50:57
  Speaker 6: but no one will listen to her. She's the rightest
• 51:00
  Speaker 6: person on.
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: Set, like in the way that black women are almost
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: always the most discerning exactly people in the room. And
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: if only she was given any lines of dialogue.
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: I kept waiting for her to have something to do,
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: and it's I learned a little more about the actor
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: Lynn Thigpen.
• 51:20
  Speaker 4: Who passed back in she died quite young.
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: She died in two thousand and three, in her fifties,
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: but she had again just like it is so frustrating,
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: especially when it's like the this is really the only
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: black character with like meaningful dialogue and she still has
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: nothing to do. And of course, like she's played by
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: a like Tony Award winning, like incredible actor who had
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: like won in Obi won a Tony she okay, iconically
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: to me, to two millennial things that she's.
• 51:52
  Speaker 4: A part of.
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: She plays the chief in Where in the World is
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: Carmen San Diego? And she also plays the moon and
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: bearing the Big Blue House, right like I was, like, okay,
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: a legend. But of course, like this movie just completely
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: squanders her talent and doesn't write her a character.
• 52:12
  Speaker 4: It's just a mess.
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: It's a mess.
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the reason the takeaway for so many people,
• 52:21
  Speaker 3: even though by our standards today feels like scraps, it's peanuts.
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: It's almost nothing. But at the very end, when Michael
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: approaches Julie and he says, I was a better man
• 52:34
  Speaker 3: with you as a woman than I ever was with
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: a woman as a man, I just got a line
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: to do it now without the dress.
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: He really thought he was doing something, Yeah, and she's.
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: Just might he might say that, and he might feel that,
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: but we don't see evidence of that. We're not shown
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: anything to that effect on screen. Yeah, so it falls
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: really flat.
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: I had saying I want to there. There was a
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: letterboxed review from a user I really like. Sally Jane
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: Black wrote a review of this movie a couple of
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: I think a couple of years back that I think
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: like kind of captures a lot of like why this
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: movie doesn't work.
• 53:20
  Speaker 4: So I just wanted to share a little bit of it.
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: She says, quote Feminism is not men learning to empathize
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: with women by using them. Feminism is not a man
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: praying on a woman who has been his friend for
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: years to keep up a lie. Feminism is not using
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: Michael's disgust at being kissed by a man as the
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: inspiration for his changing character to be stronger. Skipping ahead
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: a little bit, there is an undercurrent of turf thinking
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: here in the service of making a film addressing the
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: plight of cisgender women. This film presents the argument of
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: those right wing misogynists parading as quote unquote feminists that
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: men will dress as women to invade women's spaces, prey
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: on them, lie to them, manipulate them. That a man
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: presenting feminine is nothing but a predator. While this is
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: emphatically not a film about a trans woman, it still
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: rings in the hearts and minds of those who want
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: to hate trans women. The argument is not, and should
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: not be walk a mile in our shoes. It should
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: be patriarchy holds you back too. It goes on from there.
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: It's a we can link it in the description. I
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: thought it was a really thoughtful review of this movie that,
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: of course random letterbox users were being absolutely unhinged in
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: the comments of oh god, but I think like she
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: she you know, sort of expands on also very regressive,
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: homophobic and transphobic and misogynist stereotypes that appear in this
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: movie and sort of try to tell you that it's
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: like a progressive, thoughtful character.
• 54:44
  Speaker 6: I don't know, I really I really like that so much.
• 54:47
  Speaker 6: It reminds me of do you guys watch We're Housewives
• 54:50
  Speaker 6: of Beverly Hills? By chance?
• 54:52
  Speaker 4: I have?
• 54:53
  Speaker 6: Yeah, Well, there's there's a nonprofit called like walk a
• 54:56
  Speaker 6: Mile or something, And there was one season where Taylor
• 55:00
  Speaker 6: wants all the husbands to be in this like marathon
• 55:05
  Speaker 6: race where the whole premise is that you're gonna run
• 55:09
  Speaker 6: in heels, and they're all cackling and all the husbands
• 55:13
  Speaker 6: are going, that's crazy, Like we have to wear heels
• 55:16
  Speaker 6: like you, and like it's supposed to raise money for
• 55:19
  Speaker 6: like survivors of domestic abuse, and it literally the whole
• 55:23
  Speaker 6: thing's like how funny that this big man is gonna
• 55:26
  Speaker 6: wear these stupid little heels.
• 55:29
  Speaker 5: That we wear.
• 55:31
  Speaker 6: And it's like the whole thing is so gross and
• 55:35
  Speaker 6: so like like to me, this is the same culture
• 55:38
  Speaker 6: as TUTSI. It's like it's this such so so strange,
• 55:43
  Speaker 6: and it's about how different gender experiences like are supposed
• 55:48
  Speaker 6: to relate to each other and in like this like
• 55:50
  Speaker 6: umbrella of misogyny and it's really weird and gross and
• 55:55
  Speaker 6: it just reminds me of that, Like how funny that
• 55:58
  Speaker 6: these men are going to put heels on and it's
• 56:00
  Speaker 6: supposed to like raise money for women's survivors.
• 56:03
  Speaker 5: It's like that's so weird.
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's insulting and bizarre.
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, similar to again, even though Michael Dorsey is
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: a cis man pretending to be a woman. There's still
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: transphobia inherent in the way that everyone who knows about
• 56:25
  Speaker 3: what Michael is doing thinks it's weird and that he's
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: stick in the head, Oh my god, you're gonna wear
• 56:31
  Speaker 3: women's clothing out in public.
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: Well, and like crucially he really only ever talks to
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: other CIS men about.
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: This, right because it's George and Jeff and they're both like, ow, yucky,
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: what are you doing, you weirdo? And Michael's just like
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: shrug a.
• 56:48
  Speaker 6: Shrug, yeah, Like they never explicitly say it, but there's
• 56:51
  Speaker 6: this weird underlying feeling of like all the men being like,
• 56:55
  Speaker 6: of course we want to do this too, Like obviously
• 56:58
  Speaker 6: I want to wear a dress too, but that's it's
• 57:00
  Speaker 6: disgusting and shameful, and there's this like weird underlying current
• 57:04
  Speaker 6: of like of like, yeah, of course, like men would
• 57:07
  Speaker 6: be wearing dresses if we could, like, but we're not
• 57:09
  Speaker 6: supposed to. And like it's just like their whole relationship
• 57:14
  Speaker 6: to like cross dressing is this weird feeling of it
• 57:18
  Speaker 6: existing and it being very inherent in culture but so
• 57:23
  Speaker 6: shameful that like you obviously can't talk about it or
• 57:26
  Speaker 6: do it, but like the way they talk about it
• 57:29
  Speaker 6: is like this weird like knowingness that it's there and
• 57:32
  Speaker 6: it happens and that people do it.
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying, Yeah, no, I've it's so
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: like and and I think, going back to like something
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: you said earlier, Kaitlyn, it's just like if this was
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: the best that like pop culture had to offer at
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: the time, like what a sign of how bleak things
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: were at this time? Or there is this And there
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: are two other movies I that I honestly have not
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: seen either of them, but they came out in either
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: nineteen eighty two or nineteen eighty three that floor similar
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: themes as Victor Victoria with Julie Andrews comes out this
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: same year, and then Yentle with Barbistrays and comes out
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: the year after with what I understand to be similar premises.
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: I have not seen the movies, but like.
• 58:15
  Speaker 4: This was clearly like on like this was something that.
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: Yes, that was there, it is it was in the
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: zeit guys at this time, but like not in a
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: way that it just feels like it's stopping short of
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: saying anything intentionally or like in this very Reagan eraw
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: way presenting something and then at the end saying well,
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: but never mind, and let's let's restore the quote unquote
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: normalcy and let's restore order.
• 58:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, everyone take off your costume. Yeah, and live as
• 58:49
  Speaker 3: the gender you were assigned at birth.
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 58:53
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it was. It was.
• 58:54
  Speaker 6: It was interesting to watch this as a trans person
• 58:57
  Speaker 6: and kind of like see the progress that has been made,
• 59:01
  Speaker 6: Like I you know, we are regressing so much as
• 59:04
  Speaker 6: a society. Obviously if you look at anything that if
• 59:07
  Speaker 6: you're awake and you can see anything that's happened in
• 59:09
  Speaker 6: our country, it is terrifying for trans people. But with
• 59:14
  Speaker 6: that said, like it is crazy just to see the progress,
• 59:17
  Speaker 6: like as a trans person who's like in the industry,
• 59:20
  Speaker 6: it's like wow, like this is where we were at
• 59:23
  Speaker 6: that moment, Like you just there was like the jokes
• 59:26
  Speaker 6: that were made, the the only way people were interacted
• 59:29
  Speaker 6: with him cross dressing was through like psychiatry of like
• 59:32
  Speaker 6: like okay, you need to see a psychiatrist. You need
• 59:34
  Speaker 6: to like fix this and figure it out. And it
• 59:38
  Speaker 6: was crazy just to see that like there has been progress,
• 59:40
  Speaker 6: like there has been It's been amazing to see that
• 59:43
  Speaker 6: there's progress and that I don't know, just like I
• 59:48
  Speaker 6: forget I forget that that, Like, you know, we.
• 59:51
  Speaker 3: Have come away, yeah, comparatively, possibly a long way in
• 59:57
  Speaker 3: forty five years since this movie came out. Also with
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 3: all of the legislation.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 6: And they're going back regressing.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but culturally there are significant differences where we actually
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 3: have trans characters on screen played by transactors.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 6: I just remembered, like, was it last year something like
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 6: some right wing production company they released a movie about
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 6: like CIS men basketball players having to do drag and
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 6: be cross dress and be women to like play basketball. Really,
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 6: I like, yeah, yeah, I saw ads for it, and
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 6: I was like, wow, like we are back at Tutsi. Huh,
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 6: Like like that's so funny, Like we're back, We're back.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: At Tutsi and now we're correctly classifying it as Republican.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 4: That's so bizarre.
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: I yeah, yeah, I don't know. I rewatched a section
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: of Disclosure just because I remember Tutsy coming up quite
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: a bit in that documentary or like there's multiple clips
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: from it, and the section that I watched. I think
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: it's interesting that and just like a point that I
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: didn't consider on this first run, but how men in
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: drag in the eighties specifically were kind of often positioned
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: as a way to make it in a way that
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: we see all the time seem like women had it
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: better than men at this time. Women had more opportunities.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: And there was I forget what the other eighties movie was,
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: but they used Tutsi as an example of like, well,
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: a man in drag has a chance of being more
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: successful in a professional environment, which is just like so
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: ridiculous on premise, and would be treated better and paid
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: more and respected more than if they were just a
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: random guy. And then there was a different movie that
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: was cited that I wish I could remember the name
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: of that is even more ridiculous, where it's like men
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: in drag that are like the plot narrative is that
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: they're trying to get better house, and you're like, in
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: what world it's I don't know. I'm sure that someone
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: has written a like doctoral thesis on why exactly this
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: was happening in this moment, but it was like you
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: see it again and again, it's just bizarre.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 6: It just reminds me of the eighties in terms of, like,
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 6: in terms of women's liberation of like, you know, sexuality
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 6: is power, Like I feel like it was you know,
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 6: the seventies at the sixties, Like now I'm going back
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 6: multiple decades, but I just feel like with like liberation,
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 6: it must have been some sort of pushback and some
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 6: sort of like pushback against this, like women being sexually
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 6: free and being like, oh so now you're like because
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 6: you know, with misogynists like only viewing women as sexual objects,
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 6: and like, I just feel like there's some weird relationship
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 6: between like women being more sexually liberated and being like,
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 6: oh so now you have privilege and now you can
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 6: like have more than men because you know, I can
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 6: only look at you as sexual object or something.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 3: Right, and that threatens people, And that's why there's always
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 3: the cycles of progress and then backlash and then progress.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's why there's so much anti trans legislation
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 3: happening right now, because trans people are more visible and
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 3: freer to exist in the world than they once were,
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 3: and that upsets a lot of horrible people and hence
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 3: the pushback.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, yeah, like what you were saying, I
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 6: know you were talking specifically about drag, but in terms
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 6: of like the trans experience, Like I feel like there
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 6: is a lot of hatred of specifically men towards trans
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 6: women because men are miserable and they even with all
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 6: the privilege that they experience, they're so deeply unhappy. And
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 6: when they see someone feeling liberated, someone taking their destiny
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 6: into their own hands and a symbol of freedom, it
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 6: makes them angry, so angry that they're still stuck in
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 6: that prison of masculinity, that even with all the privilege
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 6: that they get, makes them so deeply unhappy because they
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 6: can't be allowed to feel and have emotion and all
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 6: those you know, whatever the weird gender politics that we have.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 6: And then it comes also from CIS women, where like
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 6: they see trans women and they go, you're just a
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 6: man and you have the privileges of a man and
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 6: now you're a woman, but you but you were socialized
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 6: as a man, and there's a lot of anger there,
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 6: and you know, trans people can't win. It's like, you know,
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 6: you're just you're really put in that position where you're
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 6: just like I don't want to be a symbol for anything.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 6: I just I'm just a person and I don't.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 3: Want to live.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I just you know, in today's trans today of visibility,
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 6: like right now, visibility sucks. It sucks to be visible
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 6: as a transperson, right now because of all the attacks
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 6: and all the you know, horrible stuff that's going on
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 6: again trans people the transity visibility as a phrase is
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 6: so weird.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 5: It's like I.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 6: Don't know who wrote that, but they it should have
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 6: been punched up, like transity of visibility is so weird,
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 6: Like like what do you mean visibility? Transity of empowerment?
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 6: Like there's so many better words.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: I feel that way about a lot of taglines of
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: that nature, where sometimes it's like even when someone's like
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: you are valid or whatever, you're like, can we like
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: do a little better than that? Like I don't know,
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: it just feels like I given, of course everyone deserves
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: to be visible, but then what's so weird?
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 3: I almost feel the same way about like International Women's Day,
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 3: where I'm just like, okay, thanks for being nice to
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 3: me and acknowledging women this one day, But like what
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 3: if we could just do that all the.
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: Time or or that I mean, I whatever, like let
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: women exist, like the word exists bothers me too.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 4: You're like, yeah, that, I don't think.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: We're asking for enough. I think we should be asking
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: for more than visibility and existence.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 6: Also, if you can't like afford groceries or like gas
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 6: or like if you can't have like healthcare, it's like
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 6: who cares? How like visible or invisible or like if
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 6: it's your day, or like it's like who the fuck
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 6: cares if none of us can survive, Like you have
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 6: to survive to exist, Like you can't exist without food.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 6: Like it's just I feel like it's so patronizing to
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 6: just like try to have these days highlighting people when
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 6: it's like we just as people are trying to like survive, Like,
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 6: h it just makes me very angry against like the
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 6: billionaire class. I'm sorry, I just get very that's exactly.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like okay, for the other three hundred and
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 3: sixty four days of the year, can you pay me enough?
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: Yes? Yeah? Like live the patronizing, Like how how so
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: many social movements were like co opted by like companies
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: for like one day out of the year to be like,
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: oh yeah today, like Shelle Gasoline loves trans people.
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 4: And you're like, what the fuck are you talking about?
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 4: Like I got an.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 3: I got an email from an escape room place that
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 3: was like happy International Women's Day, women get forty off
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 3: of an escape room, and I'm like existent and patriarchy
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 3: is an escape room.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 6: Oh my god, that's so funny.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: That's great. I remember one of my favorite like commentary
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: on that kind of like patronizing representation, no politics stuff
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: was I think it was Iffy wady Way. During the
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: George Floyd protests in twenty twenty, he made a fake
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 2: post from Spaghettios Spaghettio says black lives matter, and it
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: just like it was so funny and like just perfectly
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: was like what what does what does it mean? What
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: does it mean to say Spaghettio's believes that black lives matter?
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: What is Spaghettio's doing about.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 6: My favorite version of that? And this was not even commentary,
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 6: this was real life is on. There was one year
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 6: for International Women's Day where Burger King tweeted and was like,
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 6: we think that women belong in the kitchen. And then
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 6: it was like it was like highlighting their like their
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 6: like management program, and it was like this is nuts,
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 6: this is nuts.
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 5: You can't do this, you can't do this.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 3: Oh they think women belong.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 6: In Yeah, said we think that women belong in the kitchen,
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 6: and then it had a link to their like program, Yeah, what.
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 4: Are we doing? What's going on?
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 3: Exactly?
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 6: I feel nostalgia for those days we've things have gotten
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 6: so bad that I'm missing the performative representation I miss I.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 2: Miss banks celebrating pride. I miss Bank of America pride
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 2: because that I mean, like speaking to your point like
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: that isn't even really happening anymore. Like they're like, oh,
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 2: we don't need to pretend to be an ally anymore.
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 6: There's no more pretending.
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: Ugh, I mean it's yeah, I do feel weirdly.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 4: I was.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: I think when that like twenty sixteen trend was going on,
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 2: it was miserable, but you're just like, wow, people used
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: to fake allies better, like.
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 6: Billionaires used to pretend like they didn't want us all
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 6: dad like they like they used to be like no,
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 6: we we want you to be alive. And now no
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 6: more of that. It's like, no, we want you to
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 6: die and like you need to die.
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 2: It's like what well, it's and I think that like
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: getting back to to see like, I think that there
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: is that energy thereof like the feminism that Dorothy Michaels
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: represents is catchphrase feminism and she's a Republican.
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 6: For out of the way, Dorothy is a Republican.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, for sure, there's a scene where Dorothy as
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 3: Miss Kimberly on the show. In one of her what
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 3: is supposed to be an empowering speech that she gives
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 3: on set, she's talking to a patient who has been
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 3: violently abused by her husband, and Miss Kimberly is like,
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 3: if you're being beaten by your husband, then you should
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 3: just beat your husband back. That's what I would do.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 3: And she's discouraging her from extracting herself and her children
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 3: from this abusive relationship. She's like, no, just beaten back.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: It's all very like U. And also the actor there
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: was like it disagrees with I don't know, it's just
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: always like Dorothy has to be the most feminist in
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 2: the room, even though Michael's behavior bears this out. Negative
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: twenty percent doesn't make any sense speaking going back to
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: Dorothy Michaels is a Republican. The second you said that, Nori,
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: I was like, oh, she kind of like Dorothy Michaels
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: kind of looks like Anita Bryant, like homophobia Era Bryant,
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: Like it's.
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 6: So true, that's so true. Like the costuming, Yeah, like
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 6: that is.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 4: Her, Yeah, yeah, like she is.
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: She's a friend to no one I just don't under
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: I don't know Dorothy Michaels at best is talking in
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: these platitudes that are also clearly written by men, which
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 2: you know, I could see someone arguing is commentary, but
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 2: it's not, because it's like, it can't really be commentary
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 2: on TV that much because we don't really know who's
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 2: making the TV. We can assume that it's a room
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 2: full of sismen, but we don't see that. We don't
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 2: understand why this woman producer has no power on her
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: own show. We don't know what the one black woman
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 2: in the movie is thinking at any time that the
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: actor isn't like, you know, putting into her eyes.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 6: Basically, I have a question, Oh please, if this movie
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 6: was made today, how do you think it would end?
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 4: Okay?
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: So I have sort of a good answer to that
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: because this movie was adapted for Broadway recently, Yeah, within.
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 3: The past like six or seven years, I think, right.
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: And like one Tony's and all of this stuff. It's
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 2: weird because not very there were lines that changed, but
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: there was not a lot about the plot that changed. Sorry,
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: I have uh I did this research about a week ago,
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 2: so I need a second up to pull it up.
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: But I think the main difference was that there was
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 2: a lot of queer criticism of the Broadway musical, being like, well, what.
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 4: The hell like what was that?
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: Because it was once again written and directed by sis
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: straight guys, the Broadway Musical was praised in the general sense.
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 2: It was nominated for Tony's it did well. The setting
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 2: was changed from soap operas to I think Broadway, but
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 2: there was a ton of criticism around how little changed.
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 6: Ah my god.
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: It reminded me of a conversation we had on our
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: two Wong Fu episode Caitlin, because that had a similar
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 2: trajectory as did Priscilla, Queen of the Desert. They were
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: also both adapted into Broadway and like didn't do a
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: lot of course correcting on the flawed source material.
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 3: Thanks.
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know, I feel like depressingly, the answer
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: is maybe I don't. I don't know how differently it
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: ends a what do y'all think?
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, do you have a pitch for.
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 6: I haven't thought too much about it, but I think, like,
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 6: I think there would be the speech would be different.
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 6: I think it would include what he learned. Maybe this
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 6: is more hopeful than maybe this is, like what I
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 6: would hope rather than like what would actually happen, as
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 6: you just said, what the it got rebooted and nothing changed,
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 6: But like I just would hope that like there would
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 6: be a different speech, Like there would just be some
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 6: different speech. Yeah, and him and Julie would not get
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 6: back together. They would not He would not be able
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 6: to get with her. He would have a really hard
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 6: conversation with with the character the woman.
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 4: That he was leading on Sandy.
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 6: I think he would not win in the end. He
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 6: would win nothing. He would have lost everything, and I
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 6: think would just have to like live with like that.
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 6: That was weird that he did a weird thing.
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, which is like not even punishment enough really, like, yeah, yeah.
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 3: He should donate all the money he earned on the
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 3: show too.
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 6: Yes, yes, the women, Yes, yes.
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 4: The way.
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 2: I'm curious what you both think about Julie's storyline. I
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: thought Julie to be so perplexing. There are elements of
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 2: her that like, I don't know. There were like little
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 2: commentary bits to Julie's character that I was like.
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 4: That's interesting.
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: We won't be getting it to it, but that's interesting.
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 2: One of the more subtle things is that she does
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: not discuss publicly that she is a mother. I thought
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 2: that was a kind of that felt like actual effective
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 2: commentary of like, well, being a mother and being an
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 2: unmarried mother, you would be perceived as unattractive or old
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: or whatever it was, and so she doesn't talk about
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 2: her child publicly and only sort of tells people that
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 2: in the nineteen eighty two version of A Green Circle,
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: because there there is clearly some stigma with that. You know,
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 2: there is some light commentary on how poorly women were
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 2: represented in TV at this time, but again it's completely
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 2: undercut by the fact that, like I mean, in the
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 2: I think when we meet Julie, she's she's like, Hi,
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 2: I'm the slutty nurse, and then you're like, well, because that, yeah,
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 2: that's the character that has been written for her, right
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 2: she has to play. And it's not that she is
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 2: an aware of that. It's that she is accepted that,
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 2: like she or you know, it's like sort of position
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 2: like she's accepted that there she will never be treated differently,
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 2: so so like might as well laugh about it, which
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 2: is like, sure, you can fall into complacency when you're
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 2: when you don't think you'll ever be treated like a
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 2: person at work. But then the movie sort of posits like,
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 2: and so what she needed was Michael Dorsey to make
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 2: her realize that wasn't.
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 3: Okay teach her about feminism, right, Yeah, yes, that is baffling. Also,
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 3: later on, she's talking about how how much she values
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 3: Dorothy as a friend and how much Dorothy has taught
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 3: her and inspired her, and that's why she breaks up
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 3: with Ron, and I'm like, okay, but like that breakup
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 3: scene happens off screen, I don't really have any other
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 3: any other indication.
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 6: Didn't she come back and say she didn't or did
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 6: I make that up? I feel like I have a
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 6: memory that she was like I didn't do it, or
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 6: like she.
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 3: Does eventually, and then she says like, I'm lonely. Who
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 3: am I gonna have dinner with now? And I think
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 3: she says something that almost implies that Dorothy teaching her
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 3: about standing up for herself and being empowered as a woman,
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 3: like has made her lonely and made her because of
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 3: the awareness she has, she's now like unhappy with the
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 3: world and power dynamics and stuff like that, which fair
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 3: like people who are aware and informed and enlightened are
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 3: also often deeply unhappy because of.
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 2: I was like, well, I mean I can really I
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 2: didn't yet, So I'm not criticizing that's my perhaps my
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 2: lived experience. That's exactly how I feel right now. So yeah,
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 2: I'm not criticizing that. And I'm also maybe just reading
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 2: into it because she doesn't explicitly say that. But what
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 2: we do know, or what she does say, is that
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 2: Dora Dorothy has taught her so much because Dorothy's always herself,
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 2: and the joke is, well, Dorothy isn't herself, that's not
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 2: even Dorothy, that's a guy named Michael Dorsey, but Michael
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 2: Dorsey as Dorothy has taught Julie how to be an
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 2: empowered woman.
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 3: But I'm also just not really seeing evidence of that,
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 3: so I don't know what she's talking about.
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think like any progress in Julie's character is
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 2: spurred by Dorothy, and at the end that it just
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 2: ends up being like kind of sad, h when you.
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 6: Say sad like one of the saddest scenes for me
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 6: is when Michael is so late to that dinner that
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 6: h oh with Sandy, such Sandy makes and then like
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 6: he's like you should be mad at me, be mad
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 6: at me, Like don't apologize and like them putting her
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 6: character in such a low point that the perpetrator is
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 6: telling her like, why are you not mad at me?
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 6: It's like, yeah, like you wrote the scene, Like you
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 6: wrote the scene, and you wrote it to where she's
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 6: that pathetic. That really was sad.
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 2: Oh it really bummed me out. Yeah, where it's like
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 2: I don't know, for the only like Julie and Sandy
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 2: both hot, white blonde ladies, so already.
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 4: You're like, Okay, this is what the movie's doing.
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 2: But Sandy is just treated so horribly by the plot
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: in a way that like, I think that we're supposed
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 2: to I mean, obviously Michael having sex with her is
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 2: framed as a joke, even though it's like co weird,
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 2: coercive sex, and then he treats her poorly for the
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 2: rest of the movie.
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 4: It just made me so sad.
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, watching her with the with the food alone and
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 2: then immediately forgiving him.
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 4: I do.
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 2: I like when she lashes out at him. I like
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 2: that when she says I never said I love you.
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 2: I don't care about I love you. I read the
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 2: second this is all very second my feminism. I read
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 2: the second sex. I read the Cinderella complex. I'm responsible
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 2: for my own orgasm. I don't care. I just don't
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 2: like to be lied to. I feel like there's something
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 2: in there, but it doesn't pay off in any any way.
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 2: It's just sort of like lip service because like Terry
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 2: garr is selling me on it. I do think that
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 2: there is I mean going back to like the idea
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 2: that like being empowered can also translate to feeling kind
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 2: of isolated and lonely. That's sort of what she's saying here.
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 2: She's like, I am a feminist.
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 4: I you know, I've.
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 2: I've done the work, I'm doing my best, and I
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 2: just I feel like shit, I just want to be
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 2: treated like a person by you, and like there's like
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 2: there's there's like truth in that. Unfortunately he never does that,
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 2: so like why bother.
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 3: He never tells her he was lying to her the
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 3: whole time, He never apologizes, he never comes clean in
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 3: any way. She just never appears on screen after that scene,
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 3: So there's no resolution there. Yeah, like you said, Jamie,
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 3: like them having sex feels very like he tricks her.
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 3: He lies about his intention of why he was naked.
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 3: There's also a weird thing where she sees him and
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 3: she's like, Michael Parentheses horrified. But then she's like Michael
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 3: Parentheses in True Morning, I'm like, Okay, what the hell
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 3: is this? And then he's like, yeah, I want you.
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 3: And then so they have sex. She says something like
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 3: men have sex with me and then they lose interest
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 3: and they ignore me, and I don't want that to
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 3: be this way. But also, the movie is so all
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 3: over the place with how it characterizes her, because for
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 3: most of the time, it seems like like the way
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 3: she's waiting around and constantly being stood up by Michael,
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 3: the movie wants you to think that she's pining after
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 3: him and expecting to get into a serious, committed relationship
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 3: with him. But then at the end she says, I
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 3: don't even care about any of that. I just don't
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 3: want to be lied to, which fair, But then what
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 3: was all that other stuff where the movie makes it
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 3: seem like she does deeply care about that stuff. So yeah,
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 3: I just feel like the movie cannot make up its
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 3: mind on how we are supposed to perceive her how
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 3: she actually feels about the situation.
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 2: Well, and also there's a big to do made of
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 2: like she doesn't want to do the play with him
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 2: anymore because he's been so deceptive. And then at the end,
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 2: the only indication of her existence is.
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 4: That she does do the play.
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 2: There's like a sign with their names on it, so they,
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, everyone is just so trapped because.
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 3: She says like, normally I would say screw your play,
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 3: but because I'm a professional, I'm gonna do it anyway,
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 3: so I'll see you it rehearsal or whatever.
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 2: And then she says, I do I do like this
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 2: is just like I love Terry Garr. But like when
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 2: she when she does that whole speech and then she goes,
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 2: are these chocolate covered cherries?
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 4: I laughed. I like it.
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 3: Also, there's a part where he so Michael is talking
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 3: about Sandy to his roommate Jeff, and he's saying something like, well,
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 3: I never promised her that I would be exclusive, but
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 3: I'm kind of letting her think that so as to
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 3: not hurt her feelings. So he says that. Then in
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 3: a later scene, Michael as Dorothy is talking to Ron,
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 3: Ron regurgitates that exact same thing about Julie, where Ron
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 3: is like, well, I never promised I would be exclusive
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 3: to her, but I'm telling her that I'm exclusive, so
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 3: is to not hurt her feelings. And I would think
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 3: that would be a moment of Michael being like, oh
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 3: my god, that's so shitty and I did that same
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 3: shitty thing.
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 2: And he just keeps packing.
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 3: He has no reflection, no introspection whatsoever. He's just like, well,
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 3: you suck Ron, You're a shitty guy. And it's like,
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 3: you're also shitty.
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 6: The only change that we see, the only progress that
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 6: we see, is that Michael just starts liking dresses like
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 6: more like he just starts to have more of appreciation
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 6: for the craftsmanship of like like like like by the end,
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 6: he's like, this is a Houston and like I love Houston.
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 6: And it's like, oh so like literally the only thing
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 6: that you've changed is you like like designer clothing. I
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 6: don't like Like it was so bad and superficial.
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 3: There were so many opportunities for him to learn the many,
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 3: many ways that women are oppressed and marginalized simply because
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 3: of their gender, and he learns basically nothing, except for
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 3: he says something like it's so expensive to buy all
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 3: these clothes and lingerie.
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 2: And handbags that it does remind me of a date
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 2: I went on years ago where it was like a
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 2: guy emphatically explaining to me how expensive skincare products were
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 2: for women, for like Mony, and then at the end
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 2: being like kiss please, like I didn't, and you're just
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 2: like okay, Like I don't know. I there's just so
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 2: much going on in this movie that makes me very
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 2: sad for all marginalized people of the nineteen eighties. It's
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 2: so and I feel like this is something I know
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 2: we're running out of time, but something that feels actually
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 2: very in conversation with not the Bechdel Test, but like
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 2: Alison Bechdel's work, which was you know, happening throughout the eighties,
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 2: the idea of like for many people. And I saw
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 2: this in the comments I saw this on letterbox, mostly
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 2: from older users, saying that this was the closest they
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 2: saw in a very successful movie to lesbian representation and
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 2: how depressing is that. Like God, There's been a lot
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 2: of pieces written about this over the years. One I'm
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 2: gonna quote from is from a blog called diva Drivel
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 2: kind of a good thing, kind of a good name
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 2: called looking for the Lesbian in TUTSI. I just wanted
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 2: to to share this perspective because I actually I like
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 2: I do. I do see the appeal of Julia's character,
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 2: even though it resolves in the most republican way possible.
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 2: So from this piece, in spite of the baggage that
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 2: comes with a film that presents dated ideas about gender
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 2: and sexuality, I still find myself drawn to Tutsy because
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 2: of the unresolved ambiguity of Julia's sexuality. Julia's blonde, beautiful,
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 2: moderately famous, and already entangled in a front relationship, blah
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 2: blah blah. Despite Julie's aversion towards seeing Dorothy out of
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 2: her clothes, as Michael pleads, she confesses to having quote
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 2: the same impulses unquote as Dorothy. In a curious statement,
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 2: she tells Dorothy that she is responsible for the encounter
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 2: because she is just not well adjusted enough, which is
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 2: such a specific choice of words.
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 4: There, it continues, what does Julie mean by this well adjusted?
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 6: To what I just got to say? I just want
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 6: to say that TUTSI walked so that Carol could run.
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 2: Okay, they're in conversation, Oh yeah.
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 4: But yeah.
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 2: Implicit in her statement is that lesbians are not well
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 2: adjusted women because they indulge these impulses.
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 4: While well adjusted.
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 2: Women learn to bottle them up and put them away,
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 2: which is like, I, honestly, I have no idea what
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 2: we're supposed to think about Julie. By the end of
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 2: this movie, it seems like Julie herself is very unresolved
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 2: about what this whole experience has meant to her, and
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 2: the movie kind of doesn't care enough to give us
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 2: any sort of meaningful resolution. I think we are just
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 2: supposed to be like, well, now she has to date
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 2: Dustin Hoffman, like that sounds miserable.
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 3: She threw a drink in his face. Cloes. There's a scene,
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 3: Oh Yeah, where Dorothy and Julie are hanging out and
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 3: Julie is talking about her relationships with men and ron
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 3: and just dating in general and how complicated it is
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 3: to be a woman in the eighties, and she says
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 3: something like I wish a guy would just be honest
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 3: enough to walk up to me and say, listen, I'm
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 3: confused about this too. I could lay a big line
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 3: on you, but the simple truth is I find you
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 3: really interesting and I'd really like to make love to you.
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 3: So later, when Michael, who is again at a party
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 3: on a date with Sandy, blows Sandy Off goes up
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 3: to Julie says that exact same line, and of course
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 3: Julie throws a drink in his face because that is
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 3: a that is a nutso thing to say to someone.
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 3: He's coming on so strong, and then he's like.
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah.
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 3: But it also kind of makes Julie seem like she
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 3: doesn't know what she wants because she just said she
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 3: wanted that thing.
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 2: I don't think Julie does know what she wants, And.
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 6: The underlying message is that women are liars. I think
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 6: like there was a very male, very misogynistic message there
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 6: that I was hearing around, like women say they want
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 6: nice guys, but then when nice guys like I heard
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 6: that like gross manosphere kind of language.
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 2: You know, totally yeah, Michael is manosphere code.
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 2: Like it is presented like Julie doesn't know what she wants,
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 2: but the movie doesn't care about that. Like I would
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 2: be willing to engage with a character who's like unsure
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 2: about like what do I want out of a relationship,
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 2: Like what is my sexuality order, my preferences, bah blah
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 2: blah blah, but like the movie doesn't care. So it's
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 2: just like you're presented with all of this stuff. It's
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 2: also kind of like weirdly like Dorothy's doing some like
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 2: mommy stuff on the trip, and like in a way
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 2: that felt so manipulative, where she's like talking about her
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 2: dead mother, and then it felt like Michael as Dorothy
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 2: was like I'm your mommy now.
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 4: It was just really confusing.
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, because they get into bed together, and then yeah,
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 3: Deutsch's I mean, I love sharing the bed with a friend.
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 2: Uh, and I hate movies that discouraged me from doing
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 2: that is fair.
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 3: I cannot share a bed with anyone under any circumstances.
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 3: I would rather sleep on the floor. We've shared a bed,
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 3: I know, but I'm so bad because I'm the worst sleeper.
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 2: Hated Settle. Seattle, you hated that.
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 3: We've shared multiple beds together. I think also in Washington,
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 3: d C.
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 4: Do you know I Seattle stuck out with me. See
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 4: you remember where we were?
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 3: I don't know. It meant to let me tell you something.
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 3: I have such bad insomnia that if someone is in
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 3: the bed with me, unless I have taken a Shmorgus
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 3: board of sleep Betime drugs, I will not sleep. I
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 3: have laid awake until seven am because a man was
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 3: next to me in a bed.
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 4: I hate to hear that.
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 3: And this has happened on multiple occasions in my life. Anyway,
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 3: they share the bed, Dorothy starts like petting Julie. She's like, no,
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 3: don't stop. My mom used to do this, and I'm like,
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 3: that could be a nice moment in a different movie,
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 3: but it's in this movie and it's weird. And then
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 3: this all culminates in Dorothy trying to kiss Julie, Julie
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 3: pulling away that you know, the scene we've been talking about.
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 3: And then the aftermath of that is Julie being like,
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 3: I'm too homophobic to be your friend anymore basically.
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 2: Which is kind of couched in the like, it's not
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 2: that I'm homophobic, it's that I need you to out
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 2: yourself to my dad today.
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I feel like I'd be leading you on
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 3: because the mentality of the time was that here people
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 3: were so sexually aggressive that you can't even be friends
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 3: with them.
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I have to confess something. We have limited time left.
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 6: I have to confess something. Tell us I was sexually
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 6: attracted to her dad. Oh less, I don't.
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 7: Know, but I did get he was so sweet, he
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 7: was so sweet, and his wife died and he's a widower,
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 7: and he just like was like so nice to Dorothy
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 7: and like he just wanted like to be happy and
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 7: like live like a joyful small life and that Really,
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 7: if I was Dorothy, I could not have resisted and
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 7: I would have gone with Less.
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 4: Wow, he should have been so lucky.
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 6: He was just like he was solid. He was the
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 6: only man in that film that was a solid man.
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 3: But I hate him.
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 6: Well, did he do something bad? Am I forgetting that
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 6: he did something bad?
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 2: His last I think his last appearance is like sucks.
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 6: Oh yeah, because.
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 3: He's weird and homophobic. But then even before that he
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 3: goes on this tirade about how gender.
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 2: Needs to be this rigid, happy thing.
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 3: I couldn't say. He's also like he keeps being creepily
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 3: like touching Dorothy and invading her space and thing crossing
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 3: her boundaries.
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 6: In real life, Less would end up with a trans woman.
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 6: In real life, Less just trans attracted. He finds out
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 6: later in life he finds a woman who's trans, and
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 6: he lives a beautiful, happy life on the farm with
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 6: his trans lover. Like that is that's real life, that's
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 6: real life. In the movie, it's really weird, and there's
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 6: a lot of weird stuff going on. But in real life,
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 6: Less he has a beautiful trans wife. That's just that's
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 6: that's that's life.
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 4: That's beautiful.
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 3: I'm here for it.
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 2: Maybe that's maybe that's how it ends in everything else
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 2: is exactly the same, except Less has a beautiful trans wife.
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 4: At the end of them, like, he takes he takes
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 4: your dancing.
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 6: He just wants to dance.
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 4: We're I like.
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 2: The way he's presented is very sweet at first, and
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 2: then the layers start to peel back.
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 5: They do peel, they do peel.
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 2: Okay and Julie, Julie, this family, Like, I don't know
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 2: what the hell was going on with this family.
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 3: It's a mess.
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 6: There was sexual tension between them, Yes, I.
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 2: Was gonna say there was a very like the way
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 2: she I also just think it's whatever. I you know,
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 2: I want I want my mom to have a nice boyfriend.
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 2: Sure of course I do, why not? But I wouldn't
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 2: be like, I'll leave you two alone, good luck, Like
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 2: you're like, oh gross, gross, Like I want her to
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 2: have a great relationship that has nothing to do with me,
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 2: Like what gross? Like, Yeah, people love to hyper sexualize
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 2: the relationship between fathers and daughters.
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 4: It's their favorite.
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 3: Oh god, wasn't that a thing? Weren't we talking about
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 3: that in like Say Anything or something?
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 2: I Say Anything is one of the horniest father to
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 2: outer relationships ever because he gives her like a ring
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 2: at the beginning of the movie.
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he proposes to his own daughter or something.
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 5: Gross.
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 3: I know we're running out of time. I just have
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 3: a few quick things I want to rattle off. First
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 3: of all, I think this movie suffers from too many subplots.
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 3: There are like seven, and it should have been maybe three, tops.
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 3: But the subplots that we haven't really talked about are
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 3: the quick thing with the actor John Van Horn, who
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 3: plays doctor Brewster. He attempts to rape Dorothy.
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 2: And that's written off with what is definitely intended to
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 2: be a joke. Sally Jane Black talks about this at
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 2: her review as well, where Michael says rape is no
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 2: laughing matter, and then there's like a literal pause for laughs.
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 2: For the nineteen eighty two audience that's like, sure it is.
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 2: It's the funniest thing in the world.
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So that's a mess. There's a tiny, tiny little
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 3: Geena Davis subplot where it's I guess it's more of
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 3: a through line than anything, but the whole thing there
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 3: is that she keeps being almost naked in front of Dorothy,
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 3: not realizing that Dorothy actually Michael, and so she's like
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 3: in her bra and underwear all the time, and then
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 3: when she realizes that Dorothy is a man, her eyes
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 3: bulge and she's like, oh no, I've been naked in
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 3: front of him the whole time, And that's played as
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 3: a joke. There's a few instances where Sandy makes fat
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 3: phobic remarks, always about Dorothy, but she never knows that
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 3: she's talking about Dorothy.
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 4: And also Dorothy not for nothing, Dorothy isn't.
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 6: Fast skinny as hell, Yeah, because it's.
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 3: Dustin Hoffman and Dustin Hoffman is very thin.
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 2: I mean that's just again the like absolute, like crippling
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 2: depression of the nineteen eighties where we're just like.
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 4: What are you even saying?
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 3: It's it's mind boggling. Yeah, there's just there. I know,
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 3: we're we're there's more to say, but yeah, we're we're
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 3: running out of time. So I'm like, ahh, but I've
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 3: had a great time here today.
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 4: I have me too. Does this maybe pass the Bechdel test?
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 3: I don't know, Like, no, it doesn't unless someone were
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 3: to count Dorothy as a female character. But no, no.
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 6: Way, because like without that, like there was no scene
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 6: where two women were talking, right, I can't remember one.
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 3: I don't think so.
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 2: And if it did happen, it was a coincidence at best. Yeah,
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 2: like all of that, Like all of Sandy's friends are men,
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 2: which as an actor doesn't really make sense. It doesn't
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 2: seem like Julie, in spite of being a sweet person,
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 2: is friends with any of the other women on set.
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 2: It just like, is yet another example of every woman
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 2: in the story being just like narratively, Like there's these
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 2: little narrative baby gits around them so that they can
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 2: never speak to another woman. And yeah, I don't think
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 2: it passes the Bechdel test literally or spiritually.
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 3: No. But what about our nipple scale, the scale where
• 1:37:57
  Speaker 3: we rate the movie on a scale of zero to
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 3: five nipples based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens.
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 3: This is tricky again. For the time, this was probably
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 3: a feminist masterpiece in nineteen eighty two, Sasha butmer bleak
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 3: as hell, But obviously looking at it in twenty twenty six,
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 3: everything that it is maybe trying to do falls absolutely short.
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 3: There are so many issues with all of the text,
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 3: all of the subtext, everything about it just is kind
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 3: of rotten to me. So I think I I'll give
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 3: it a half nipple for its legacy of being a
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 3: quote unquote feminist work for its time and paving the
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 3: way for other better stories that explore similar themes about
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 3: gender and misogyny and things like that. But again, by
• 1:39:01
  Speaker 3: today's standards, it is not really doing anything. So half
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 3: nipple and I'll give it to Terry Garr.
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm gonna go half nipple too. If this is
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 2: like a movie that you loved, a nostalgic premises, like.
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 4: Revisit it. I think it's it is.
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 2: This probably was considered very like different and it it
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 2: I just have only really ever seen in the broadest
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 2: possible way this movie presented as a tale of empathy,
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 2: and I think if you go back and watch it,
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 2: the empathy just isn't there.
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 4: Where Where is it? Where is it?
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 2: At is the empathy in the room with us right now?
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 2: It is just a Reagan relic that, like you said, Kaylin,
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 2: and I think you know, if you got something out
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 2: of this movie and it led you to actual empathetic work,
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 2: then great. But yeah, for for our purposes, it does
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 2: not do well.
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 4: Half a nipple. Also going to Terry Garr, what about you, Nori?
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 6: Yes, I okay, So I'm gonna give a quarter nipple
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 6: for nostalgia like I really did, like you know, the
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 6: grainy camera that I was really loving, the style, the
• 1:40:11
  Speaker 6: colors that I was really into that nostalgia element. So
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 6: a quarter nipple for that alone, you know what. Another
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 6: quarter nipple for the love of my life less, So
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 6: half a nipple, okay. In terms of trans nipples, I'm
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 6: gonna do negative ten. It was so painful to hear
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 6: some of that dialogue. It was so transphobic and really hurt.
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 6: And also Dorothy was brick as hell, and no one's
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 6: believing that that's a woman. Okay, so negative ten. I'm
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 6: gonna give my half a nipple to my boy Less.
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 6: You know, before the the onion peels, you know, before
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 6: the layers were shown, he seemed like a nice guy.
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 6: But unfortunately we did see who he was, so that sucks.
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 2: But yeah, but in the reboot, he will be on
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 2: the farm with his gorgeous trans wife Yes.
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 6: Played by Sasha Colby from Groupos Drag Race.
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 3: Yes, well, Nori, thank you so much for joining us.
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 6: Yes, oh my pleasure.
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 4: Thank you for enduring Tutsie. We're sorry.
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 6: I'm going to need some therapy. I'm going to need
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 6: to do some therapy after this. No, this was a
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 6: delight to talk to you, guys.
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 5: Thank you.
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh. Where can people follow you on social media?
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 3: Find your work, et cetera.
• 1:41:36
  Speaker 6: I'm on Instagram. It's just nor read find me there.
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 6: I'll post about shows I'm doing. I'm always performing in
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 6: the LA area, So yeah, check me out.
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 4: Hell yeah.
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 3: And you can follow us on Instagram and our Patreon
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 3: aka Matreon, where for five dollars a month to get
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 3: two bonus episodes every single month, plus access to the
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 3: back catalog, always on a fun little theme that Jamie
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 3: and I cook up. And that's at patreon dot com
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 3: slash Bechdel Cast.
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 2: And with that, let's we could we could fix Less,
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 2: We could fix Less. Yeah, let's go to his farm
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 2: and fix him. Couldn't fix Michael, but maybe less, but maybe.
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 6: Less put less of address as less.
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 4: By Bye bye.
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 2: The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted and
• 1:42:33
  Speaker 2: produced by Me Jamie Loftus and.
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 3: Me Kitlyn Durrante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichtermann.
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 2: And edited by Caitlyn Durrante. Ever Heard of Them? That's
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 2: Me and our logo and merch and all of our
• 1:42:47
  Speaker 2: artwork in fact are designed by Jamie Loftis, Ever heard
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 2: of her?
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 4: Oh My God?
• 1:42:52
  Speaker 2: And our theme song, by the way, was composed by
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 2: Mike Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Vosskrasinski. Iconic and a
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 2: special thing to the one and only Aristotle Acevedo.
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 3: For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree slash
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 3: Spectelcast