Latest / GowayPro Travel Tales / A Private Safari Guide's Insights into Botswana

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A Private Safari Guide's Insights into Botswana · GowayPro Travel Tales

• 0:00
  Hey there everyone, I'm Don, Professor Goethe and welcome to the GoethePro Travel Tale Podcast.
• 0:06
  you
• 0:13
  Travel far and gravel often.
• 0:15
  you
• 0:17
  Where are you based at the moment?
• 0:19
  You in South Africa?
• 0:20
  You in Botswana?
• 0:21
  am in the UK at the moment.
• 0:23
  That is why there is no natural light available.
• 0:26
  Oh, okay.
• 0:29
  Same thing right now.
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  I'm sure the same thing.
• 0:32
  At least you get snow.
• 0:33
  We just get, we just get sludge.
• 0:36
  Yeah.
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  I've lived in the UK on and off over the years.
• 0:39
  Yeah.
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  Like I love England.
• 0:41
  I think it's wonderful.
• 0:42
  We used to live up in the country up in, actually we'll bring this into the conversation.
• 0:45
  So let's get started.
• 0:47
  we go.
• 0:49
  Hello everyone.
• 0:49
  Welcome to Go A's Travel Tales podcast series.
• 0:53
  Today we are heading to Southern Africa and a country that maybe a lot of people don't consider when they look at Africa or particularly Southern Africa and that being Botswana.
• 1:05
  So we are going to talk about Southern Africa and Botswana.
• 1:08
  But my guest today is a gentleman, Peter Allison, who we just spoke off air.
• 1:13
  He's actually based in the UK at the moment and just got back from Botswana.
• 1:18
  He said, literally with 48 hours ago.
• 1:21
  he's probably, again, Peter, you're probably a little bit jet lagged as well at the moment.
• 1:25
  It's not too bad, it's only a two hour time difference.
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  It's just I don't sleep on big aircraft.
• 1:31
  oh
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  How you doing?
• 1:34
  me a little Cessna and I'm out.
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  But yeah, I don't know 300 people around me.
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  What are the chances that they're all good?
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  A little bit of paranoia creeping in there, I think.
• 1:46
  ah So again, I'm in Toronto.
• 1:49
  We're talking about Botswana.
• 1:50
  Peter is in the UK, but I pick up from the accent, you're an Aussie by birth, I would assume.
• 1:57
  I am born in Australia, grew up in Sydney, but I left as a teenager.
• 2:03
  Initially I lived in Japan for a little while and then at 19 I came to Africa for what I thought would be a year.
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  And that's lasted over, well I've been a safari guy for 31 years now.
• 2:16
  And most of that I've actually been based in Africa.
• 2:19
  Okay, so let's take a step back there.
• 2:21
  So Sydney, whereabouts in Sydney?
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  Because that's where I'm from.
• 2:24
  So, well, this is something I've only recently got around to admitting.
• 2:28
  I'm originally from the Shire and I'm a Hobbit.
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  Then I moved from there to Mossman, which is probably the greatest culture shock of my life.
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  I've lived in every continent except Antarctica.
• 2:40
  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  Fair enough.
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  Okay.
• 2:43
  So, um, I grew up in Coogee and spent a lot of time up at Whale Beach.
• 2:48
  So your neck of the woods, I, the Northern beaches.
• 2:51
  So for those who don't know the harbors, you know, you've got the Northern beaches, North of Sydney harbour and this Eastern suburbs, which is South of Sydney harbour.
• 3:01
  And that makes a bit contradictory Eastern suburbs being South, but that's what it was.
• 3:05
  Um, and then the Shire is even further South that's sort of down aware.
• 3:10
  around the sort of Botany Bay area where Captain Cook first landed.
• 3:14
  that's the Shire region that Peter's talking about.
• 3:17
  So what took you to, because we've got a similar story to a degree, because I used to be a tour guide as well.
• 3:26
  And I went on one of my first big journeys outside of Europe, which most Australians do.
• 3:32
  I went to Africa as my first big, just not as a guide, just as as a holiday, that's I fell in love with tour leading in.
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  Africa as well.
• 3:40
  So what took you?
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  said you went to Japan for a year first.
• 3:44
  Yeah, that was just, I'd been doing Japanese at high school and Japan had a far stronger tendrils into Australia.
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  At that point, I made that thinking I was being clever and securing my future.
• 3:57
  I love Japan.
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  I've never been to a country that can revere the ancient and embrace the modern as well as they do.
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  There's so much history and a fascinating present, but there was something missing for me and I didn't recognize it at the time.
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  And it was when I was about to turn 19 and I'd been working on boats on Sydney Harbour for a couple of years.
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  got promoted to the top job manager on board and I thought this is not what I want to do for my life.
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  I'm to go to Africa for a year and I'm going to just travel around, see some animals, loved animals my whole life.
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  And then I'll come back and do law.
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  If I don't know what will make me happy, I might as well be rich.
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  And so I jumped on a plane two weeks later.
• 4:42
  Oh, okay.
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  So I did a, from my tour leading thing, I did a similar thing.
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  I'd done a couple of trips to Africa as a, as on an overland trip, which I'm sure you're familiar with that terminology.
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  For those who don't know an overland trip is basically getting a big converted truck and you can't for the most part, wherever you travel.
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  So I did a few trips like that, Eastern Africa, Southern Africa.
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  And I thought, um, not so much the wildlife, but the con that type of job was for me.
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  Cause I had no, um,
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  high, so to speak, back in Sydney.
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  I did something, I came back from a second trip.
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  I did that trip with the intention to look at this job seriously.
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  It's all well and good to be on a holiday.
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  this is so romantic.
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  I could do this for a living.
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  yeah, so I came back, I did the trip thinking, let's have a close look at it.
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  Came back and thought, yeah, I'm going to do it.
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  And two weeks later, same thing.
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  I sold everything I owned, bought a one-way ticket to the UK, which is where this company, Dragoman, you might know is based.
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  Yeah, then I didn't go home for about seven years when I did, was with a wife and a kid.
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  yeah.
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  So you went to Africa for the year to travel and then what led you into my thought process of, I'd like to do this as a living.
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  I think it's, it's, I still consider myself incredibly lucky.
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  I mean, there's this crazy thing where sometimes starting at 12, you're asked to pick what you want to be for the rest of your life.
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  And therefore if you want to be, you're smart enough to be a doctor.
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  So you've got to do science, you've got to do mathematics, you've got to do this.
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  And at 12 year old, didn't, I didn't have a hair on my body outside of my head.
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  You know, you, barely develop physically, let alone mentally.
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  So I think he sometimes get
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  you're painted into a corner.
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  And I was so lucky to break out of that and to stumble into a career which seemed fantastic in the true sense of the word as in it was a fantasy.
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  And I got a job while hitchhiking, came via a game reserve and got a job behind the bar because I worked in a bar in Australia, of course.
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  If you never did that in our era, then your parents are probably too rich.
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  And so I knew how to run a bar.
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  I ran a bar in a safari camp and I thought this was it.
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  My year was made of seeing animals just in and around the camp.
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  One day, one of the guides, and these guides in this camp were already my heroes.
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  They were only a year or two older than me in some cases, and I thought they were the coolest people I'd met.
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  They drove Land Rovers, they carried rifles, they could spot animals in a way I couldn't conceive of ever being able to do.
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  One of them got sick and another one hurt his leg, and the manager ran up to me with a rifle in one hand and keys to a Land Rover in another, he's like.
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  This is it.
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  You've got to go out this afternoon.
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  All you do is talk about animals.
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  Just do it behind the as you don't as you know, it's like that.
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  If you grew up in Sydney, the idea of being a safari guide was never, never something a guidance counselor, whatever.
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  I can't remember what we call that was not on the table.
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  Most tourism jobs weren't even on the table, which is crazy.
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  It's such a huge employer.
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  And um
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  Yeah, and then three hours later, and then the crazy thing is, so I grabbed the rifle, grabbed the keys, and I said, okay, but two things.
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  I'm definitely doing this.
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  Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.
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  This is the first time I've touched a gun in my life.
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  I've also never driven a car before.
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  And there's an old saying, a great saying, history is made by people who show up.
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  And I equally think jobs are given to people.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  Yeah.
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  Bake it to the naked type thing.
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  yeah, yeah.
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  I probably spent 20 years concerned that someone was going to point out I was still faking it.
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  That's two thirds of my career thus far.
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  You then, did you then through that, you know, being there at the right place, right time type thing, obviously it was something that clicked for you because you loved it and
• 8:58
  you're still doing it.
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  Have you since then, because my life as a tour guide was basically go over, get interviewed, learn how to fix a truck, mechanics on it, and then, you know, go out and
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  lead trips around the world.
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  was very little outside the mechanical training.
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  There was very little training.
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  It's you had to be a good people person.
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  You had to able.
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  be able to uh react and deal with certain situations, know, natural disasters, police bribery, all the stuff that goes with traveling in what would be termed third world
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  countries.
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  And there was no training for it.
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  Not that you could really train for that anyway.
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  So after this first experience of guiding, right?
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  Here's the car, here's the gun.
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  I would assume over the years as the tourism industry has changed you, did you get formal qualification?
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  Did you go to a
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  a guiding school or you then just learned as you went.
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  I scraped through as probably the last generation of guides where it wasn't just that formal training wasn't required, it wasn't available.
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  And there are now so many schools, and this is a good thing that these have come into place.
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  Every country now, pretty much, there's a couple of exceptions.
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  Guides need to be licensed, they need to be examined, they need to prove their abilities.
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  And those abilities aren't, the mechanical side is one thing, that those practical aspects.
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  The knowledge is another side.
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  Your ability to interact with humans is the all-important one and probably the one you can't train.
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  I don't know that you can train an introvert to be a people person, but there's still jobs for them in the field.
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  There's work to be done in research and conservation where you don't have to be saying, sir, no, sir, three bags full, sir.
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  And perhaps like you, was just, I had the ability to fake it until I made it and
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  And I was, it might sound like some bravado.
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  It wasn't that I was terrified.
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  And I, I mean, I did my first trip this year to central West Africa to Chad.
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  And I was very filled with trepidation going into that.
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  But I've been, I suppose where I'm lucky is that my curiosity is just that bit stronger than my fear.
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  And when an opportunity like that presents, I say yes.
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  And straight away, my heart starts racing.
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  But what would be so much worse is not going, not seeing what's over the horizon, what's around the corner.
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  And that's what kept me going all these years.
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  Yeah, 100%.
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  And it's interesting you bring that up because one of the things that we did as overland drivers too, is you'd often, the way it was structured, you go out with an experienced
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  leader first.
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  They'd show you the ropes, know, little ins and outs and stuff like that.
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  Then you'd get comfortable with it.
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  And then you would lead the trip, you know, depending what region it went to.
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  But what I found through the years is that
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  There are basic concepts of any tour leading job you need to know, like the rules and certain logistics, but it's the experience that really starts giving you the comfort, the
• 12:09
  confidence and the credibility with your guests because you know what you're talking about, because you've seen the lines do this so many times, or you know the road system
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  here, or you know how a bribe system works in Peru or whatever it may be.
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  um But I I spent a lot of my time in Latin America, very, very comfortable.
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  I was offered a trip from London to Kathmandu and back.
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  And I thought, to your point, yeah, something different, a little bit nervous, but I had a tour leader who'd done it before.
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  So he had that comfort blanket.
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  But on the way back, they asked me to run a section where we would turn blind.
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  So neither of us had gone into Syria and Jordan at the time.
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  This is before the, many years ago before the conflict.
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  So I had to drive through these two countries, never being there before, nor had my co-driver.
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  And it was, to your point, I was nervous as...
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  because your guests expect you to know what's going on.
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  If you've never been there, you don't know.
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  But the challenge was there, as you say, like, you know, I had to drive across deserts and stuff like that.
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  And was fantastic.
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  And I love the challenge.
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  I really, what's the word?
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  can't think of the word.
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  But I understand what you're saying with that, you know, challenge over the horizon, try something new, try something different.
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  And as you say, an Aussie boy coming out, he just wanted to travel and all of a sudden you're a tour guide in Africa.
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  Taking on those challenge must have been exciting for you.
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  So 20 odd years later, you're now what you would term or I would call you without any hesitation, a professional safari guide.
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  And again, this is just to fill in your background to our listening audience.
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  I understand you're also an author and you work in the marketing department of one of our partners.
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  who look after lots of lodges in Southern Africa.
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  We'll get into this in a minute.
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  We're going to focus on Botswana today.
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  So how did the author side of your career come up?
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  up.
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  My mother was a journalist.
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  Her father was a journalist, both of them Sydney Morning Herald, which I'm sure you know.
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  really?
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  Okay.
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  I grew up in a newspaper office, know, sick days from school.
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  My mother didn't have a choice.
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  She was a single mom.
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  And so often grew up in a newspaper office surrounded by words and our house was full of books, both my parents' readers.
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  And as a kid, I used to look at this book on the shelf as the biggest book on the shelf.
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  I thought I'm going to read that one day and was war and peace.
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  I finally did it when I was 16.
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  But for me, was my mother had written books, her father had written books, her cousin had written books.
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  I wanted a little bit to carry on that legacy.
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  again, it's these unexpected consequences of saying yes to opportunity, sitting around a campfire, which doesn't happen anywhere near as often as it used to.
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  And that's a great shame.
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  Yeah, I'm not kidding.
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  tell stories.
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  They're true stories.
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  Typically, people don't want to hear your stories of dragons and whatever else it might be.
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  But as a safari guide, and particularly one who came in without training, you've got stories because the worst experiences make the best stories and the most highly trained
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  people don't make mistakes.
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  Astronauts are so highly trained, they tend not to have great stories to tell.
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  And in my case, I had all these stories of making mistakes, the misadventures, and sitting around a campfire, you tell them and you can see when people start yawning and they're
• 15:41
  ready for bed.
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  I wrote one of them down and it was fun to do it, to write.
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  So I wrote another and another and I realized there was a book.
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  So I'd always imagined I'd write a book one day, never knew where to start.
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  And then I realized I didn't have to start with my childhood with getting on a plane.
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  could just start in middle of being suffra-
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  the readers could figure out how I got there.
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  And it was a lot of fun.
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  the first book in particular, it's in about 14, 15 languages, carries on selling.
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  So I've written two books about travel, being a safari guide, and the third one about my equally incompetent travels through South America.
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  Obviously you've been to South America.
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  Good to hear.
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  Yeah, I spent two years there, willfully homeless.
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  Were you guiding or just travelling?
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  Bye.
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  traveling.
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  Just.
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  really?
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  that's, Africa is your thing.
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  Like I love Africa.
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  We're just there again, people have listened to these podcasts when I was there earlier this year, this year being 2025.
• 16:52
  I love Africa as well, but my passion is Latin America.
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  I just, that's where I guided most of my time and I just love it.
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  it's cool.
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  So two years uh backpacking, I guess, type thing around South America.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  And went to London and just before she dumped me, dinner with a world travel, it's a big travel conference every year.
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  a of my, friends from Africa will be there linked up with them.
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  And there was a lot of red wine.
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  And when I woke up in the morning, think I'm back in the safari business.
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  And know, called a friend and said, we work together again?
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  He's like, yeah.
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  So what am I doing?
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  So you're in marketing now.
• 17:54
  oh,
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  So is that the job you're in now?
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  uh
• 18:01
  so my main day job is promoting, first of all, African travel.
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  We're not blessed with the greatest tourism boards on the continent.
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  Some are definitely better than others.
• 18:16
  And so sometimes, mean, we're going to be talking about a few of these places, we've just opened a new property in Bamba, for example.
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  And before I can tell people about that, I've got to explain it's in the Ocovango Delta.
• 18:26
  I'm not going to tell them where that is, which is in Botswana.
• 18:29
  And as you mentioned right at the start.
• 18:34
  One is one
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  every four years, you go, there's one we haven't heard of before.
• 18:40
  And then four years later, you say it again.
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  And so I've got to promote Botswana before I can get down to that.
• 18:48
  luckily with someone like Go Away, I'm talking to experts, I don't have to begin with a map of the world.
• 18:53
  They've got plenty of those and plenty of expertise.
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  So it's great I get to come in and dive straight into what it is that makes it special.
• 19:01
  My other job is I still lead people on trips, occasional group trips, but mainly
• 19:07
  taking families, groups of friends on Safari and uh not just Botswana and Namibia.
• 19:13
  I did a trip to Chad this year as I mentioned, Rwanda, anywhere where the client wants to go.
• 19:19
  In your experience in Africa, um again, these podcasts might be back to back, but I just got off a podcast where I was to our partners who look after our guerrilla trekking in
• 19:35
  Rwanda and Uganda.
• 19:37
  And I spoke to them about how, not so much anymore because of the guerrillas, but they as a destination taking the guerrillas out of it, because that's obviously a big draw for
• 19:47
  those two countries.
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  They're overshadowed by Kenya and Tanzania.
• 19:51
  They're sort of the bigger general destinations people will go to.
• 19:55
  In Southern Africa, most people are going to hit South Africa.
• 19:58
  It's probably got the better brand recognition than Namibia and Botswana.
• 20:04
  And Zimbabwe's been through troubles over the years, which has turned people off that, which is all better now, or getting better.
• 20:11
  So I know this because I've been there a few times.
• 20:15
  When you pitch
• 20:16
  Botswana on the assumption people know that it's in Southern Africa.
• 20:19
  What's the biggest difference that you would pitch to someone about why they should consider Botswana?
• 20:29
  For me, Botswana is...
• 20:33
  So I'm obviously of a certain generation and the listeners might be a broad spread of ages, but when you're first perhaps getting intrigued by Africa, it's typically not a
• 20:43
  brochure, it's something you watch on TV.
• 20:45
  It's a BBC documentary and Netflix is increasingly making great documentaries.
• 20:51
  And no matter where it's filmed, Kenya, Tanzania, Botswana, Uganda, what you see is...
• 20:58
  often a bit of a false image of this boundless area.
• 21:00
  You kind of feel like Africa is a sea of wildlife with little pockets of humanity.
• 21:06
  In fact, it's increasingly humans with little islands left of wildlife.
• 21:13
  Then you get to Botswana and we have what we call concessions.
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  These are privately leased pieces of land.
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  The government administers them on behalf of the people.
• 21:24
  We're not chasing people out of land they've lived in.
• 21:27
  And they're huge.
• 21:29
  mean, you hear these numbers being bandied around of 200,000 hectares and it's really hard to put your head around that.
• 21:37
  But that's four times the size of Singapore.
• 21:39
  And that's relatively common for us.
• 21:41
  And in that we'll have two or three camps.
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  That's it.
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  And the biggest of those might have 10 rooms.
• 21:47
  So really for me, Botswana and Namibia is the same as this and perhaps even on bigger scale.
• 21:55
  Both of these are huge countries with just over two million people each.
• 22:00
  Before you worry about what the bed's like, before you worry about what the bathroom's like, the greatest luxury is space.
• 22:10
  That's really for me where it all begins.
• 22:11
  Nobody arrives in Africa with the fantasy of seeing 50 vehicles around a cheetah.
• 22:20
  I'm not wanting to denigrate any other destinations as there's certainly special places and things and definitely people in every one of these countries.
• 22:28
  But for me, Botswana is the Africa that was in my head growing up.
• 22:33
  And was the first one I found that really delivered on.
• 22:37
  you say then the bots wanna
• 22:42
  phrases.
• 22:43
  So you've already passed on Botswana due to its size.
• 22:47
  It's probably less traffic than its bigger neighbors.
• 22:51
  um Is it also less traffic because it is less known?
• 22:58
  um I believe, correct me if wrong here, it has a reputation of being a bit more expensive than other safari destinations.
• 23:05
  And the reason I bring that up is because on our recent trip,
• 23:09
  down to South Africa where we went and I interviewed our account manager who just went to Kenya.
• 23:15
  We sort of both had opinions on private game reserves versus national parks.
• 23:20
  And you get very sport in the private game reserve because if it's well run, which ones we were at were exceptionally well run, is you feel as if you have the wildlife somewhat to
• 23:28
  yourself.
• 23:29
  There's not the big crowds, there's not the 50 vehicles around the spotting.
• 23:34
  When we went into Chobe, into the national park, we came across a pride of lions.
• 23:38
  And the difference in experience was fantastic.
• 23:41
  Don't get me wrong, but it was noticeable in that we'd gone from two cars that are spotting and quiet to 20 cars racing down a road to get to the Pride and then racing ahead
• 23:55
  of the Pride.
• 23:55
  was manic, it was chaotic.
• 23:58
  The experience was still amazing because you were with the Pride of Lions.
• 24:02
  So Botswana would offer that, again, you said the concessions.
• 24:08
  Does Botswana offer that more solitude experience due to its size and due to the fact that when I asked the question about being a bit more expensive, you sort of nodded your head.
• 24:20
  let's tackle that first.
• 24:21
  Is Botswana more expensive than its neighbors, first of all?
• 24:28
  The long word answer, typically yes.
• 24:30
  part of that is um you are more remote.
• 24:36
  And this is also true of Namibia.
• 24:38
  Just getting to these places.
• 24:42
  I've had incredible safari experiences in South Africa, like you're describing, and even these can be in a private reserve in South Africa, where there's still...
• 24:53
  there's maybe only three vehicles at the sighting because they're very well managed.
• 24:56
  It's respectful of the wildlife.
• 24:58
  They've been doing it a long time.
• 24:59
  But then there's a ticking clock.
• 25:02
  So if you're with lions and they're getting ready to hunt, but you're told after 20 minutes, we need to make way because there's a queue of vehicles lined up.
• 25:10
  Again, that's not the Africa in your head.
• 25:12
  So you do need to push further afield.
• 25:16
  And for a start, it's not cheap just to get to Botswana.
• 25:20
  Many ways, flying up from Johannesburg, from Cape Town, across from Victoria Falls is a really good way and probably the most cost effective.
• 25:28
  uh And then once you get into these private areas, yes, you pay more.
• 25:33
  But the thing to bear in mind, and this is now me talking more as a marketer, I suppose, and as a guy, was an exercise I did was some of these rooms, if you, people go, it's so
• 25:45
  expensive.
• 25:46
  How can it be one and a half thousand dollars?
• 25:50
  stay at this place.
• 25:52
  And I'm talking US dollars as well.
• 25:54
  And that's nowhere near the top price.
• 25:58
  Some of them are crazily priced.
• 26:01
  But if you were to say I'm experience driven, my luxury is experience.
• 26:06
  And it doesn't matter what the stock market does.
• 26:08
  That never leaves my account, the experiences I've had.
• 26:12
  And that's the kind of person I am.
• 26:14
  And I'm going to take a stab you are as well where we're
• 26:18
  We work in tourism, so we're probably not threatening Elon Musk.
• 26:23
  m But what a wealth of experiences you've got from all your years guiding and driving blind into Syria and Jordan.
• 26:33
  And also had the pleasure of being in both of those places as well.
• 26:37
  m But this wealth of experiences, it's incredible.
• 26:43
  if that's what drives you, you can come into Botswana, pick a property that is
• 26:47
  promoting its wildlife rather than its amenities.
• 26:51
  And even then you're have a room and say, how much would a room this size cost in Manhattan or Sydney, where we're both from?
• 26:59
  And I guarantee you a room that size will probably cost more plus we're gonna feed you relentlessly.
• 27:06
  You do not lose weight on the safari.
• 27:10
  You can drink till you're gurgling.
• 27:13
  I don't recommend it because it's hot and you're dehydrated already potentially.
• 27:17
  And also you're going to be woken up early.
• 27:19
  But enjoy your gins and tonics.
• 27:21
  Enjoy your red wine, your white wine, whatever your tipple is.
• 27:24
  Or don't drink alcohol at all.
• 27:26
  Just drink all the amazing fruit drinks and smoothies that the Campbell make.
• 27:32
  The food has really changed a lot in the time I've been doing this.
• 27:36
  So the value for money, if you were to take that exact same rate, one and a half thousand and say,
• 27:42
  and do it in New York, the moment you walk out the front doors of that hotel, they don't care what happens to you.
• 27:49
  That's only what happens through the front doors and up and down the elevators that they care about.
• 27:53
  We're looking after you every single minute of every single day.
• 27:58
  We're making sure you're having the most incredible experiences, eating wonderfully.
• 28:02
  And I suppose it's interesting, I just traveled with a first timer on Safari.
• 28:09
  That's a new thrill of mine because now that I've been doing this for three decades is actually kind of sitting back and watching it through somebody's eyes who's experiencing
• 28:20
  it for the first time.
• 28:20
  And a huge highlight, if you prepared to engage other people, as it should be everywhere you travel.
• 28:32
  And just, it was really refreshing to be with someone that would chat to the people who were
• 28:38
  bringing us drinks, who were bringing us dinner, who were taking us on the safaris.
• 28:43
  And you start learning about what life is like in a contemporary African village.
• 28:52
  It's fascinating.
• 28:53
  this is so many people come saying I'm here because I've loved elephants my whole life and they leave loving the people.
• 28:59
  That was actually a bigger highlight in some cases than the animals.
• 29:04
  We actually had a berserk safari.
• 29:06
  got all these rarities.
• 29:07
  We saw two hard varks.
• 29:08
  We saw a pangolin.
• 29:10
  Oh, wow.
• 29:15
  And yeah, so you know, that's a real thrill for me.
• 29:18
  So the idea that Botswana
• 29:21
  Yes, Botswana is expensive, but I suppose to wrap this up, it's still great value.
• 29:29
  I think it is as well and a key aspect to it other than the point you brought up about the experiences which are invaluable and we could go on tangents about that subject matter and
• 29:38
  know, travel is well to me and my wife and in turn our kids is as important as a formal education.
• 29:45
  um But you know, there's just as you mentioned earlier about Botswana itself, there's logistics like these camps just don't pop up organically like all the stuff's got to be
• 29:55
  shipped in there to build them.
• 29:57
  you know, to supply them.
• 29:59
  there's, there's just logistical costs, which does push up the price in Botswana.
• 30:03
  But again, back to your point, you're going to a country in an area where you'll have probably less people around you, particularly at, at sightings and things like that.
• 30:13
  So it's worth keeping that in mind.
• 30:15
  And I used to say to, when I was looking after Latin America here, people would ring up about the Galapagos or an Amazon experience and they'd, you know, they'd be fixated on the
• 30:24
  boat, the vessel they're to be on.
• 30:25
  Does it have this?
• 30:26
  Does it have that?
• 30:27
  And again, like if that's what you want, that's what you need and your budget can afford it.
• 30:30
  And you like the five-star go for it.
• 30:33
  Like we have it there.
• 30:34
  I know Botswana has, as you mentioned, really luxurious options as well.
• 30:39
  But our counter to the obsession with the vessel or the hotel or the camp in this case would be you're going to spend most of your time out of it.
• 30:49
  You're going to be on safari.
• 30:50
  You're going to be somewhere else.
• 30:51
  When you come back, like a cold beer is a cold beer and
• 30:55
  A three-star camp or a five-star camp is still going to probably have viewing areas over water holes or wildlife.
• 31:04
  And you'll probably be able to sit out on your balcony at nighttime, whether it's a tented camp or a five-star lodge and here and or see the animals at night.
• 31:12
  So I guess my point here is to our travel partners is don't let your clients get overly obsessed with all the bells and whistles of their camp um or the dollar value of the camp.
• 31:23
  Back to quite Peter here.
• 31:25
  It's the value of the experiences that they're going to encounter.
• 31:29
  And Botswana by its location, by its size offers something different than its surrounding neighbors.
• 31:34
  And I'll let Peter expand on this a bit more now.
• 31:37
  It's also the environment, whereas Southern Africa, I'm going to exclude Namibia, which is very desert focused experience or can be.
• 31:47
  The classic Tanzania, Kenya, South Africa is your TV type safari, the plains of Africa.
• 31:54
  Whereas the Delta for the most part is this huge water basin fed by the mountains in Angola, I believe.
• 32:01
  So it's a completely different wildlife experience.
• 32:04
  So Peter, can you expand on that aspect of Botswana?
• 32:07
  Yeah.
• 32:08
  it's so Kenya, Tanzania, that region where Swahili is spoken widely gave us the word Safari, Swahili.
• 32:15
  And it means to go on a journey.
• 32:18
  It doesn't mean to sit in your butt while somebody points things out to you and you watch and you listen.
• 32:26
  So one of the great things when you're in Botswana and the two main areas that we are especially seeing are the Okavango Delta.
• 32:35
  huge wetland, a Switzerland-sized wetland in the Kalahari.
• 32:41
  It's formed by a river, the biggest river in the world that doesn't reach the ocean.
• 32:45
  It gets bounced into the Kalahari by fault lines and creates this enormous oasis.
• 32:51
  And then just to the south of that you have something called the Makari-Kari pans.
• 32:54
  I'll just say Makari-Kari if you don't want to do that.
• 32:58
  Who doesn't?
• 33:00
  But those pans, it's the biggest network of salt pans on earth.
• 33:05
  You'd know Uni Salt Pan well.
• 33:07
  This makes Uni look like a table condiment.
• 33:11
  It's enormous.
• 33:14
  And Uni is the single biggest pan, like I said, this is a network.
• 33:18
  Between those two, the activities on offer, and I actually tallied this up recently and I found 16 different ways that you can go on safari.
• 33:28
  From what you'd expect being an open four wheel drive to
• 33:35
  quad bikes or ATVs, depending on where you're from, what you call them, horseback, helicopters, and none of these things are mandatory.
• 33:42
  Like nobody's going to compel you onto a horse if like me, you don't trust them.
• 33:47
  Cause my car is not afraid of a plastic bag.
• 33:50
  It's not going to kick me out of the seat.
• 33:55
  professional equestrian so it's a strange attitude.
• 33:58
  Oh, I'm sorry.
• 33:59
  Touchy subject.
• 34:00
  Yeah, yeah.
• 34:02
  Anyway, so we've got dugout canoes, we've got motorboats, there's so many ways.
• 34:07
  And again, if we talk about a richness of experience, where ideally you come back from your trip to Botswana, for example, and when someone says, you know, what was the
• 34:21
  highlight you lost for words?
• 34:25
  That's ideal, because there's just so much that you've not just seen, but done.
• 34:30
  Because I firmly believe your best memories, the ones you treasure the most, are the things you did, not just the stuff that you watched.
• 34:38
  So again, just recently on this trip, out with the San people or Bushman people, this is one of the two oldest cultures in the world that hasn't changed, along with the native
• 34:53
  Australians.
• 34:55
  And what you're seeing is a window
• 34:59
  into Stone Age history.
• 35:01
  It's pretty amazing.
• 35:03
  And it's very, very respect.
• 35:05
  They actually run the activity.
• 35:06
  They're showing you what they want.
• 35:07
  It changes every single time you go out.
• 35:10
  And I've done it many, many times and learn something new every single time.
• 35:17
  That's the kind of thing where you end up just connecting with people that maybe weren't even on your radar before the trip began.
• 35:23
  You just saw it as something on the list of things you might do while you're there.
• 35:29
  And you come in and you say, I just not just watch people make fire with sticks.
• 35:33
  I've tried it myself.
• 35:34
  And you realize what a skill it is.
• 35:36
  It's a skill as difficult as driving an F1 car or flying a fighter jet.
• 35:41
  You know, all the tech we've got there.
• 35:44
  Try rubbing sticks together and making fire.
• 35:47
  It's really, really hard.
• 35:48
  These people are experts.
• 35:52
  So on the cultural side, getting back to Botswana, um I believe it's the Kalahari Bushmen.
• 35:58
  Are they within the Botswana region?
• 36:00
  Am I correct in that?
• 36:02
  Yeah, so again, there's a major center of those that remain are Botswana, Namibia and Northern South Africa.
• 36:12
  There's a very closely related ethnic group in Tanzania called the Hadzabit.
• 36:18
  Very similar lifestyles, similar linguistically and physiologically.
• 36:25
  these are isolated populations of the first people of Africa.
• 36:32
  And so it's like I said, it's a real window into the past meeting them in a way where you get to learn and have fun.
• 36:41
  know, not, this is not, nothing's a lecture.
• 36:43
  Um, yeah.
• 36:45
  I mean, they have a version of rock paper scissors.
• 36:48
  And this is the one thing I see them do every time is cause they have so much fun playing it.
• 36:53
  And it's just really joyful and you kind of try to figure out the game and maybe after a few minutes, I think I'm following what happens here.
• 37:00
  I guess they like rock, scissors.
• 37:01
  They do a bit of theater uh and then they throw their hands out.
• 37:06
  And if the hands are you and your opponent diagonal, then one side's won.
• 37:10
  If it's straight on, then the other side has won.
• 37:13
  And they're playing it so rapidly.
• 37:17
  then the theatrics of the victory kind of dance as it is, uh are hilarious.
• 37:23
  you're of you're joined in.
• 37:26
  Well, this is not what I expected from a safari.
• 37:30
  I thought a safari was about saying, that a warthog or a bush pig?
• 37:34
  And it's not that, it's being involved.
• 37:38
  And that's an important aspect of travel in general, but a safari as well to bring up because more and more people are looking for the more cultural immersion or interaction on
• 37:51
  a trip.
• 37:51
  So this is a beautiful thing about Africa in general, but obviously Botswana is not lacking in this.
• 37:56
  are cultural immersions or interactions that can be added into your itinerary as well.
• 38:05
  If someone was to say to someone who's not that well versed in Africa in general and throw out the word migration, probably their first thoughts are going to be Kenya, Tanzania for
• 38:15
  the famed great migration of primarily the wildebeest and then the famous scenes of zebra and wildebeest crossing rivers and being attacked by the big Nile crocs.
• 38:26
  But I understand there is also a rather large migration that happens in and around Botswana, which is the zebra or zebra, depending on your pronunciation.
• 38:34
  migration.
• 38:35
  ah Can you expand on that a little bit?
• 38:37
  First of all, I'm to call point of order here.
• 38:41
  It's zebra.
• 38:42
  It's zebra.
• 38:42
  reason you can say that is you have no friends called Debra.
• 38:46
  You might have some called Debra, but none are called Debra.
• 38:49
  get slapped.
• 38:52
  And yeah, so it's zebra.
• 38:54
  The Spanish call them zebra.
• 38:55
  I'm trusting the Spanish.
• 38:57
  And yeah, so the Marasuranguera, like you said, it's famous and for a long time because of South Africa's political situation.
• 39:06
  Documentary crews weren't in, certainly weren't in South Africa, but that was your access point to other places.
• 39:12
  So lot of what we grew up watching on TV was all filmed Kenya, Tanzania.
• 39:19
  Yeah, exactly.
• 39:22
  myths
• 39:38
  the old National Geographic theme.
• 39:41
  You got it.
• 39:42
  I'm really sure I aged it.
• 39:44
  But, and not, they weren't saying anything wrong.
• 39:48
  It's just as specific to that place.
• 39:50
  What we've got in Botswana is something a bit different, where those salt pans I mentioned, every year there's a gathering of wildlife there.
• 40:01
  So for most of the year, it's a stark, incredibly difficult place to live.
• 40:08
  Not a lot grows there.
• 40:09
  It's very rich in minerals that don't let grass grow through.
• 40:13
  Very low rainfall, about the same rainfall as Vegas.
• 40:17
  So it's a semi-arid area.
• 40:20
  But when it does rain, all of those minerals grow grass that is so rich in nutrients that animals come from all over the Kalahari for them.
• 40:30
  And we go from a handful of zebras to tens of thousands.
• 40:34
  I think this year they estimated 50 to 60,000 zebras were there.
• 40:38
  Historically, it was 10 times that.
• 40:41
  And a big part of what we're doing, and this is a really important point to make, every time someone visits one and a half percent of the money that we bring in, before we even
• 40:51
  talk about profit, we put away for conservation, and that includes research.
• 40:57
  And we helped co-fund some research that showed that this wasn't like the Mara where these zebras are in a constant swirl, but they're always together or loosely together.
• 41:07
  This is like people coming from Florida and sorry, sorry, from places like Connecticut and Chicago and Seattle into Florida every winter.
• 41:17
  These guys are doing in summer and they're coming from the Delta.
• 41:20
  They're coming from the Chobie river.
• 41:22
  They're coming from the Batete and they gather in the pans, fatten up um like you might do in Florida.
• 41:30
  And then they disperse back to their places they're from.
• 41:34
  And.
• 41:35
  By understanding that through research, it's now protecting the corridors.
• 41:39
  And it's a rare good news story that the numbers now, by protecting these corridors, the numbers of zebras are growing exponentially.
• 41:48
  They're faster than poachers or predators can take them out.
• 41:51
  In our lifetime, we're probably going to have half a million zebras turning up.
• 41:55
  it's going to be, yeah, it's going to be extraordinary.
• 41:58
  I mean, we're seeing it already.
• 42:01
  And the wildebeest come from another area.
• 42:03
  So that's the next project.
• 42:05
  And so just something for people who are considering a safari, straight away by coming out, you're a philanthropist.
• 42:13
  So you're helping support research, conservation.
• 42:19
  You're helping provide employment to rural populations, because we typically employ from the villages closest to where we operate or a little further beyond.
• 42:29
  And these are people who otherwise, if they wanted a job, would have to travel to a city.
• 42:35
  We're straight away there, like there, there,
• 42:41
  One of those derisive terms for someone from the country is, I can't even think of one, but they're the Yokels.
• 42:47
  I don't know if that's a widely used term.
• 42:49
  Instead, they're given a place to really shine.
• 42:51
  This is an environment they know and understand, and they flourish in it.
• 42:55
  They get skills that then may give them better opportunities.
• 43:00
  And straight away, again, by visiting, you're telling the government, protect this place.
• 43:04
  It's worth more as it is than underneath a eucalyptus.
• 43:13
  Well, the governments of these countries are saying, this is important.
• 43:19
  Animals don't vote.
• 43:20
  So we have to give an economic or political reason for them to stick around.
• 43:27
  much paraphrase a statement that our owner here, Bruce Hodge makes exactly that.
• 43:32
  says, well, you quoted directly the first part, animals don't get a vote.
• 43:36
  So someone's got to look after them.
• 43:37
  um So on the rainfall situation with climate change, everything else is the rainfall pretty much like on time every year to date.
• 43:48
  It's had issues with getting the rain to bring up the grasslands.
• 43:54
  It's definitely less reliable than it was.
• 43:58
  you go into, there's a little town in Northern Botswana called Malm.
• 44:06
  and dust and you speak to the man with long grey beards and there's oh it's not like the the old days and as I get closer and age to them than to the age I was when I first
• 44:19
  arrived and I remember when it was end of November start of December first rains end of March the rain switched off like like a hard turn tap or force it as the Americans would
• 44:31
  say
• 44:35
  About two years ago, I got bucketed on in June and it was cold rain.
• 44:38
  You never get cold rain in Botswana.
• 44:41
  You never did.
• 44:42
  And it wasn't significant.
• 44:44
  It's quite strange.
• 44:46
  And again, just there with the first timer.
• 44:49
  And she was marveling at how the rain falls and these really isolate.
• 44:55
  You can see it.
• 44:55
  You can watch rain falling.
• 44:57
  You can watch that cloud patch move and just drive around it.
• 45:02
  It's not something I've seen much outside the Kalahari.
• 45:07
  you could have a place that is two places, we've got camps and they're two kilometres apart and they register wildly different rainfall even across the average for the year.
• 45:19
  Well, so if someone wants to focus their trip around the migration of the zebra, um how do you like in the in Masai in the Serengeti, you you take your four wheel drives to certain
• 45:33
  lookout points and at the river crossing the chutes and again, because it's an annual event or cycle, I should say not an annual, it cycles around you can.
• 45:42
  choose your spots throughout the year.
• 45:43
  Yep.
• 45:44
  So in Botswana for the zebra, how does that work?
• 45:47
  Is it literally you fly into a particular area to view them?
• 45:51
  it four wheel drive?
• 45:52
  All the things you mentioned before, helicopter quads, the whole thing.
• 45:56
  Yeah, so if you were to come to the pans like I just did now, so the first two weeks of December are the least traveled time on earth.
• 46:06
  Fewest number of people traveling and that's why I love it.
• 46:10
  So I was there specifically for that.
• 46:14
  And the zebras were in and on mass and the tourists were not.
• 46:18
  then it spikes again over Christmas.
• 46:22
  quiet in Botswana um whereas Cape Town is mental Cape Town is absolutely packed in January so it shows that there are still people traveling but if you come there to those pans in
• 46:37
  January you get the zebras plus you get flamingo star to arrive those are best seen from the air the zebras you can see from the ground or from the air in a helicopter
• 46:48
  And it's really up to you as to what kind of travel you want to do.
• 46:51
  And sometimes budget intervenes.
• 46:54
  The most famous camp in those pans is Jack's camp and people see it and it's a spectacular looking camp.
• 47:01
  And then they see the price point, get a bit of sticker shock and go, oh, maybe after we've won the lottery.
• 47:07
  it's such a shame because there are other properties in that area.
• 47:11
  And one of the things that we do at Natural Selection is we try to give different price points.
• 47:18
  and you've still got the chance.
• 47:20
  If your main aim was outside of the camp, again coming back to what we spoke about, if you're seduced by experience rather than objects, that there's the stuff of a safari, camp
• 47:35
  Kalahari, you're gonna see the same meerkats, the same zebras.
• 47:42
  don't find the rich any more appealing.
• 47:45
  you're to go out and the meerkat will still come and sit on your shoulder or your head.
• 47:52
  And the zebras will still pass by in their thousands.
• 47:56
  They don't take a wide curve around you because you're not wearing Prada.
• 48:00
  Yeah, I like how you put that because it's true.
• 48:05
  And that goes back to what saying before, doesn't matter about the type of accommodation for the most part, unless it's something very specific, your experiences will be, well,
• 48:14
  not identical because nothing's over identical with wildlife, but the opportunities to see and experience will be the same no matter where you're staying for the most part.
• 48:23
  There are some exceptions to that rule, but for the most part.
• 48:26
  That's the case.
• 48:27
  on the subject of camps, Natural Selections has a very large portfolio across multiple countries, but we're going to focus on Botswana, obviously.
• 48:34
  So can you maybe just go through, not the top from a price point of view, but your top five, top whatever, or unique camps that you offer and why they're unique compared to,
• 48:47
  could you mention Jack's being accessible for the migration?
• 48:52
  Jacks is an icon and we're a little different.
• 48:55
  We're not like a hotel chain.
• 48:57
  We partner with family run businesses.
• 49:03
  the eponymous Jack, Jack Balsfield, he passed away a few decades ago, but his son Ralph runs Jacks and some of its sister properties.
• 49:12
  He owns half, we own half.
• 49:14
  And he's a genius in the bush.
• 49:17
  He's literally a PhD.
• 49:19
  um
• 49:22
  outside of it and I say this because he's a friend of mine, he's somewhat of a disaster.
• 49:27
  So we basically make sure that the tents are full.
• 49:33
  He makes sure everybody has a fantastic time.
• 49:35
  That's a really good partnership.
• 49:37
  And because our company was founded and is run by people who are all Safari guys, we speak the same language.
• 49:43
  And his previous partners have said, Ralph, you're an idiot.
• 49:47
  Be quiet.
• 49:48
  We've said, Ralph, you're an idiot.
• 49:51
  Let's build it.
• 49:52
  because that'll be fun.
• 49:54
  And that's the kind of thinking that we have is conservation is deadly serious.
• 49:59
  I spoke about that one and a half percent where that's the foundation of our company, but we're selling vacations, holidays, not insurance.
• 50:09
  People, we got to come and enjoy themselves and have fun and bring the joy back into this.
• 50:14
  And our tagline is safaris of characters.
• 50:18
  So throughout all of our properties, we say to our guides, be yourself.
• 50:22
  You've got a personality, show it.
• 50:26
  Why not let people meet someone extraordinary and they'll remember your name 10 years from now.
• 50:31
  What a great, great thing.
• 50:33
  What a great impression to make on someone.
• 50:35
  And if they walk away wanting to be conservationists, brilliant.
• 50:39
  So along for Jacks that I've just mentioned, um there's a great camp called Dukes.
• 50:46
  Sounds like Jacks with a Dutch accent.
• 50:48
  That's in the Ocovango Delta.
• 50:51
  The setting of that.
• 50:53
  is just a favorite of mine.
• 50:54
  You're in an ebony woodland overlooking waterways, but it's not just solid.
• 51:02
  It's not like looking at the ocean.
• 51:03
  There's little intrusions of grass and small islands and there's hippos weaving their way through.
• 51:08
  There's crocs.
• 51:09
  You don't always see them.
• 51:10
  There's otters in there, two types of otter in the Okavango.
• 51:16
  What happens quite often somewhere like dukes is you look at a scene or a landscape
• 51:23
  It's like you've asked, I've got uh a seven year old son.
• 51:28
  If I ask him to draw a picture of Africa, all the animals are going to be in one place.
• 51:33
  There'll be giraffes and zebras and hippos and lions and elephants.
• 51:36
  That you'll actually get there.
• 51:38
  And that's, it's almost comical and you're not going to laugh and going.
• 51:44
  Maybe there's this, there's not the half a million zebra crossing a river like you get in the Mara and that is its own spectacle.
• 51:50
  Nothing can match that.
• 51:51
  It's why it's famous.
• 51:53
  But to sit and to be able to count more than 10 mammal species outside a zoo is pretty, pretty remarkable.
• 52:02
  very much so.
• 52:03
  Yeah.
• 52:05
  So in your portfolio of properties, would assume that you have budget ranges from three to again, we've already discussed you have the luxury options there.
• 52:13
  If someone's on more of a budget, have you got options for them to consider?
• 52:16
  Absolutely.
• 52:17
  there's the mobile safaris, which you mentioned, not quite that Dragon Man level, but up from that private campsites and so on through to properties where, and I've met
• 52:30
  billionaires in our lowest tier of properties.
• 52:35
  the star range didn't quite work because there isn't always a hairdryer or drawer, which there is.
• 52:41
  um But they, because it is so different to a hotel, you know, to truly achieve, I think it's a three star rating, need to have a rail or a clothesline that pulls out inside the
• 52:58
  shower.
• 52:59
  That doesn't work in a tent.
• 53:01
  We have bathrooms, we have flush toilets, we have hot water, always available.
• 53:06
  The food is fantastic.
• 53:09
  But you can't get a hotel rating because
• 53:12
  where it's out of canvas and timber.
• 53:16
  And I like that, you know, we've all tried to figure out ways and we give different designations to them, but figure out why you're coming.
• 53:25
  And there's nothing wrong with saying, I like my luxuries and I can afford it.
• 53:33
  And why not have it?
• 53:34
  Why not be Jax camp, which we mentioned a few times now, the room is 130 square meters.
• 53:41
  And sorry.
• 53:42
  defeat.
• 53:44
  But yeah, there's the rooms are epic between to Ludi and Jackson, North Island, Okavango and to one of these places are spectacles.
• 53:58
  Or be torn down in 24 hours.
• 54:00
  That's the rule in Botswana.
• 54:02
  Interesting.
• 54:04
  But anything can in 24 hours if you've got enough manpower.
• 54:08
  But we're not allowed to use concrete.
• 54:09
  So it's all very eco.
• 54:10
  But then
• 54:12
  Last time I went with my wife to Botswana, we've got one area where we have Tluti, Sable Alley and Little Sable and Little Sable is the entry level and my wife fell in love with
• 54:22
  that.
• 54:24
  So quite often it's just a matter of taste.
• 54:29
  And again, this is where both you and I are lucky as travel increasingly goes online.
• 54:38
  I think a safari is the last place that's internet proof because
• 54:42
  You've got to learn who the person is and figure out what is it they want to see outside the room?
• 54:48
  What is it they need from inside the room and match that up?
• 54:53
  And AI is nowhere near being able to do that yet.
• 54:57
  And then make sure that the next place they go to is different enough to be worth the travel, worth packing and unpacking.
• 55:06
  And Africa really needs expertise.
• 55:09
  It's not.
• 55:10
  like one of these resort destinations where it's so easy to do it online.
• 55:16
  Yeah, it's a fun, really fun place to be involved with.
• 55:22
  Yeah, and I'd extend that statement across most of the destination go away, go a goes to because we're not a resort seller.
• 55:29
  There's nothing wrong with that.
• 55:30
  If you like your resort, you like your resorts.
• 55:32
  But to your point, at least in my lifetime, I don't think AI will ever be able to capture what you just described because I think regardless of being in the industry, if someone's
• 55:45
  asking you about, and that's why I'm enjoying the conversation with you.
• 55:48
  If someone's asking you about
• 55:51
  a safari experience in Botswana or Chad or wherever it may be.
• 55:54
  Like speaking to you who knows there, know what, SH, et cetera.
• 56:01
  That's a huge difference than like AI might spit back the facts of Botswana, of Chad, of Namibia.
• 56:10
  But going back to part of our earlier conversation, the stories that you would have and would pass on, which would inspire me and our travel partners out there and turn their
• 56:19
  clients.
• 56:20
  AI will never ever, ever capture, at least again, not in my lifetime.
• 56:24
  um So that just brings one, having expertise out there through Go Away and in turn our partners like Natural Selections and by extension, PETA.
• 56:34
  um But also the type of travel, because it's not cookie cutter.
• 56:39
  Like we've said it many times, each trip will give you a different experience.
• 56:42
  um And yeah, I think it's vitally important to keep that in mind when you're
• 56:49
  when you're selling a destination and particularly somewhere like Africa.
• 56:52
  And as we've discussed, just within Southern Africa, South Africa, Namibia, Zimbabwe and Botswana, there's crossover, but they are so uniquely different in themselves.
• 57:04
  Okay, Pete, so I think we should probably start wrapping up now.
• 57:06
  um Is there anything you'd like to let our listening audience know?
• 57:10
  And again, you are talking to our travel professionals out there.
• 57:12
  So anything that's one, inspirational.
• 57:15
  I found a lot of what you said today very inspirational and even as a travel person who's traveled a lot, you've got, you know, I'd love to get, I've been a Botswana for a long
• 57:23
  time.
• 57:23
  I'd love to get back there.
• 57:24
  So either anything inspirational or not factual per se, important when they're trying to position Botswana when they're talking to their clients.
• 57:40
  That's a great question.
• 57:41
  And I'm gonna go back to when I mentioned the Olympics and a lot of people haven't heard of Botswana.
• 57:47
  So you gotta be a curious person to turn up there.
• 57:50
  It suits the curious.
• 57:53
  And you're gonna meet people who are from a village and they've learned how to make a perfect flat white or cappuccino.
• 58:02
  So embrace that.
• 58:05
  And I think that's great.
• 58:06
  But then also if you think...
• 58:08
  If you're a curious person, should ask the question, why haven't I heard of Botswana?
• 58:12
  The reason you haven't is it's doing really well.
• 58:17
  Countries in trouble are on the news.
• 58:20
  The reason you've never seen Botswana on the news is because things are going pretty well there.
• 58:24
  Obviously every country has its problems, filled with humans and humans have their problems, but a country that's not on your CNN or Fox News, depending on which poison you
• 58:36
  drink.
• 58:39
  That's probably the place you want to go to be able to have that mixture of incredible experiences, learning a lot, but also feeling safe.
• 58:50
  mean, don't, don't want to go to a dangerous area, particularly not if you're traveling with a family, but it's nice to have a thrill.
• 59:00
  But as long as you know, it's in a really safe place.
• 59:03
  That's what I really feel we deliver on.
• 59:06
  Yeah.
• 59:06
  And that's a fair statement because most news only give you the bad side of whatever it may be.
• 59:13
  Yeah.
• 59:14
  Yeah.
• 59:14
  Exactly.
• 59:15
  Knowing our audience are being travel professionals and hopefully many out there sort of knowing Africa.
• 59:21
  Do you still stand by that statement from a tourism point of view?
• 59:24
  Because like Kenya, Tanzania, South Africa, people hear about from a travel side.
• 59:30
  But I think back to our opening statements here, a lot of travel professionals
• 59:36
  don't know about Botswana.
• 59:37
  Do you think because it's doing well, shouldn't that be a reason why it's being heard within the travel industry because it is doing well?
• 59:46
  You'd hope so.
• 59:47
  And I think what, so when I first moved to Botswana late night or mid 1990s, we didn't have any first timers.
• 59:55
  Everybody was on their third or fourth trip to Africa.
• 1:00:03
  wasn't, it wasn't travel professionals telling me about it, was the people they met while on their first or second or third safari.
• 1:00:11
  And now more and more it's become, I wouldn't call it mainstream necessarily, but there's enough people who've been visited said, this delivers on everything that the people want.
• 1:00:22
  This can be a place that we send our clients for their first ever safari, their clients become our guests.
• 1:00:31
  us.
• 1:00:32
  It is a destination for those who've been before those who've never been.
• 1:00:36
  Though I did actually have a travel professional recently say to me, said, what's one is a problem.
• 1:00:41
  Because once we've sent people there, we don't know where to send them next.
• 1:00:45
  Because they're so spoiled by that feeling of timelessness.
• 1:00:51
  That's a big state.
• 1:00:52
  Here it is.
• 1:00:53
  And I'm not saying don't send us your first time as I'm just saying the caveat is they're going to love it so much that other places might not match up to it later on.
• 1:01:02
  That sounds really copy, but I'm standing by.
• 1:01:08
  that is a big statement.
• 1:01:09
  uh On that point, uh using Latin America or South America as an example, Ecuador and Peru are so well known because they have some iconic sites, Galapagos and Machu Picchu in
• 1:01:22
  particular, but also their governments have been very, very proactive, aggressive even over the many years in promoting those two big sites.
• 1:01:31
  uh
• 1:01:34
  When you, I'm talking from a travel professional point of view here, when you look at Southern Africa, you know, the big players or player is South Africa, Kenya, Tanzania and
• 1:01:44
  East Africa from promotions and tourism, which is, is Botswana's government and in turn its tourism board as proactive?
• 1:01:53
  Does it have the same money to throw around in some of its bigger?
• 1:01:56
  oh I'm getting on the record here.
• 1:02:02
  I feel they've certainly got the budget, but I'm not sure the expertise is always there.
• 1:02:13
  Yeah.
• 1:02:13
  again, it's a tiny population.
• 1:02:15
  We're looking at just over 2 million people in a, a France or Texas size nation.
• 1:02:23
  Most of the people who they're just recently appointed a new tourism board with nobody from tourism on it.
• 1:02:30
  And yet they're a functioning and a stable democracy.
• 1:02:32
  There's so much good to be said about the Botswana government, but they're not prominent.
• 1:02:38
  know, they're not out there.
• 1:02:39
  The Rwandans are incredible.
• 1:02:41
  They've been doing really well recently in promoting that country.
• 1:02:44
  So it's been a private sector effort to get Botswana more known.
• 1:02:50
  But then on the other hand, we quite like
• 1:02:54
  Most of the people working there, well, our properties are full or close to full and we struggle in the low season.
• 1:03:03
  We struggle when you're outside of the holiday seasons in Europe and North America.
• 1:03:08
  But we like the idea of these huge sized pieces of land that we have and maybe if demand increased, we'd lose that.
• 1:03:15
  So ah this is our little secret that we're putting out on the internet.
• 1:03:22
  Right.
• 1:03:25
  not a random question per se, but what is Botswana's biggest revenue generator?
• 1:03:30
  it mining?
• 1:03:31
  it tourism?
• 1:03:31
  Diamonds.
• 1:03:32
  diamonds.
• 1:03:34
  Botswana has produced a quarter of the world's diamonds every year since I think it was 1967.
• 1:03:39
  67.
• 1:03:43
  Diamond's have recently gone down in value.
• 1:03:46
  And that's been a bit of a problem for the country, but they've got foreign reserves stacked up.
• 1:03:51
  It's a country where healthcare is close to free.
• 1:03:56
  taxation.
• 1:04:01
  So where does tourism sit within its GDP?
• 1:04:04
  Is it up there?
• 1:04:05
  It's got to in the top five.
• 1:04:07
  I'll second after diamond.
• 1:04:08
  Beef after that, an automotive assembly is fourth.
• 1:04:13
  Really?
• 1:04:15
  didn't know.
• 1:04:16
  I knew tourism would be up there.
• 1:04:17
  didn't.
• 1:04:18
  Again, most people was like I did would think diamonds South Africa, but obviously Botswana is up there.
• 1:04:23
  Interesting.
• 1:04:24
  Okay.
• 1:04:27
  Yeah.
• 1:04:28
  But as you say, know, diamonds have gone off the flavor of the month over the last 10 years, I guess.
• 1:04:33
  So yeah, that's not going to help them.
• 1:04:35
  Okay.
• 1:04:35
  Then is there anything else you'd like to pass on to our listening audience about your camps, Botswana in general?
• 1:04:44
  I know we'll probably get people hearing you speak, knowing that you are a guide.
• 1:04:49
  Can you be requested as a guide on behalf of client, our travel client comes to them and they're a VIP client.
• 1:04:56
  Can we
• 1:04:57
  We through GoA request you, are only for certain people?
• 1:05:02
  Are there premiums for your services?
• 1:05:03
  There are premiums for my services as there are with any what we call a private guide or a specialist guide.
• 1:05:10
  So if you have, for example, a family, want someone who's with kids.
• 1:05:22
  appropriate degree.
• 1:05:23
  um There's people who are particularly skilled in the cultural aspects.
• 1:05:28
  a request might come through for an individual or a personality, but sometimes you might just say, these are the people we've got traveling and we'd like them to be accompanied
• 1:05:38
  throughout the trip.
• 1:05:39
  And what a private or specialist guide does is act as your ambassador on the trip.
• 1:05:44
  um Quite often, you're asleep while they're awake and you get wake up.
• 1:05:51
  probably just to a WhatsApp and it says, went out, had a great time, this is what we saw.
• 1:05:56
  ah There might be something like Mrs.
• 1:06:00
  slipped, bumped her elbow, just needed a plaster, all's okay.
• 1:06:04
  But then you get to message Mrs.
• 1:06:06
  Smith and she goes, I can't believe you're checking me up on this and that's incredible.
• 1:06:10
  It just gives that integration of your side as they are your clients, but they are our guests as I said, it puts that together.
• 1:06:20
  And also that specialist guide is making sure that each camp they come to it says, they're not really into birds.
• 1:06:29
  So just show them the vehicle, the colorful and otherwise drive past or they are really into birds.
• 1:06:36
  You don't need to stop for the elephants.
• 1:06:37
  If you can show them that little brown guide, explain why it's different than that little brown guy.
• 1:06:42
  They're over the moon.
• 1:06:43
  And that's what you learned.
• 1:06:45
  The hardest day as a private guide is your first day.
• 1:06:48
  You're there figuring out who everybody is, the relationships, how to keep everybody happy.
• 1:06:53
  Ultimately, whether we're selling Africa or whatever, we often think we're in the wildlife business.
• 1:06:59
  We're not.
• 1:07:00
  We're in the happiness business.
• 1:07:02
  If we can keep people happy.
• 1:07:04
  We're doing our jobs well and we're encouraging people to come back or to recommend it to others.
• 1:07:10
  So what you're doing, the staff on the ground are fantastic at it, but you're just giving an extra opportunity for happiness.
• 1:07:21
  That's what our industry is about and it starts from our travel partners out there getting the call from their client.
• 1:07:26
  They want to make their client feel special and have that memory of a lifetime.
• 1:07:29
  We in turn want to pass that on to travel partner.
• 1:07:33
  And we know through the partners we work with like Natural Selections in Botswana in particular that we can rely on them to do exactly that, that make this maybe first time
• 1:07:42
  visit, once in a lifetime visit, never going back visit um truly memorable and special.
• 1:07:48
  um
• 1:07:50
  And GOA stands by private guiding in general, anything from a city tour up to probably the more.
• 1:07:58
  not the right word, extreme situation of having a private guide for an extended safari over three, four days, two weeks even.
• 1:08:04
  um Because as Peter just pointed out, like it'll be truly customized to what the client's interested in.
• 1:08:12
  they don't want to see elephants, then they won't see elephants.
• 1:08:14
  Or they won't be focused or driven towards that.
• 1:08:17
  It'll be toward whatever, to quote Peter, the little brown bird they want to see.
• 1:08:21
  Cause that's all the trip may be about.
• 1:08:23
  um
• 1:08:24
  And again, that's probably the more extreme option of that is a wildlife safari guide, but even down to a city tour um in Mound or wherever it may be, that's what we try and work on
• 1:08:34
  because uh I've fallen in love with private guiding because you get what you want, what interests you from your experience one day, seven day.
• 1:08:43
  So I recommend nothing more than looking at private guided services on any destination on any trip.
• 1:08:48
  But obviously through natural selections and go away, you can extend that all the way up to having a private
• 1:08:54
  uh expert safari guide with you for an extended period of time.
• 1:08:59
  Okay.
• 1:08:59
  So on that note, I'd like to thank Peter for his time come.
• 1:09:03
  actually one question.
• 1:09:04
  uh You mentioned going back to the UK in your younger years was a place you got dumped by your friends.
• 1:09:10
  You're in the UK now.
• 1:09:11
  You did mention for this podcast, you were going to get the wife to clear out the kids.
• 1:09:17
  your wife, she, you mentioned she's an equestrian professional.
• 1:09:23
  ah Can I ask how you guys met?
• 1:09:25
  she...
• 1:09:27
  Because my wife was a passenger of mine on a trip.
• 1:09:30
  Is that your situation?
• 1:09:32
  No, that's a very, that's a tale as old as time and the infamous khaki fever, but it was actually off the back of one of the books I wrote.
• 1:09:40
  And she was a journalist from magazine and interviewed me about that.
• 1:09:44
  And, uh took me about two years to make a move, we somehow kept corresponding.
• 1:09:52
  I don't believe the article ever made it to print.
• 1:09:55
  But then finally I got drunk enough to suggest that we could have something more than correspondence and incredibly she was charmed.
• 1:10:06
  You've been married 11 years now.
• 1:10:11
  Yeah, which is why we're in the UK, but I've got a year left on my sentence and I can go to a country with nature.
• 1:10:19
  Mm.
• 1:10:20
  What's the year on the sentence?
• 1:10:21
  Just as an agreement you come to before you go back to the wild of Africa or?
• 1:10:25
  eh
• 1:10:25
  Actually moving back to Australia, been 30 years.
• 1:10:27
  Oh, Yeah.
• 1:10:30
  I haven't lived there for a long time, but I want my kids to grow up with animals.
• 1:10:40
  But then I have to surf, just the ocean.
• 1:10:42
  The ocean is nature.
• 1:10:44
  I've got three boys who are now young men and uh we went through that thought process at one stage of I'd like them to have that Australian upbringing, but circumstances just
• 1:10:56
  never happened.
• 1:10:57
  They got to a point where it was really too late to make that move.
• 1:10:59
  So yeah, good on you.
• 1:11:01
  You've got two kids, understand.
• 1:11:03
  My wife's got three.
• 1:11:04
  I don't know they're all mine.
• 1:11:05
  um
• 1:11:08
  Okay.
• 1:11:09
  And they've all been to Africa at one stage with you.
• 1:11:11
  Yeah, the oldest two actually lived in Cape Town for a while.
• 1:11:16
  We moved to the UK during COVID.
• 1:11:26
  us to do.
• 1:11:27
  This is probably more not the direction most of your podcasts go but
• 1:11:31
  Yeah, fair enough.
• 1:11:36
  So, just before we do again, officially say goodbye.
• 1:11:39
  So based on the fact you've taken your kids down to Africa and Botswana, Botswana by extension is a family friendly spot that people want to look at if they have a family.
• 1:11:48
  Absolutely.
• 1:11:49
  mean, what an experience.
• 1:11:51
  And again, circling back to when we're talking about diversity of experience.
• 1:11:57
  If you just take your kids to a place where it's a drive.
• 1:12:05
  Underwhelmed them and you don't want to turn them off the experience.
• 1:12:07
  But if you're going to places where kids are not Just allowed they're actually welcomed.
• 1:12:14
  That's a very different thing and that that is you're getting them Walking with Bushman getting a meerkat in their head one of my kids fondest memories of Botswana was when the
• 1:12:28
  guide Played a game of soccer with them, but with a dried elephant dropping
• 1:12:35
  And they thought it was the funniest thing they've ever had.
• 1:12:37
  And that's what they spoke about at school.
• 1:12:40
  And for anybody wrinkling their nose and going, isn't it smelly?
• 1:12:43
  These guys are vegetarians.
• 1:12:44
  It smells like a circus.
• 1:12:45
  It's hate.
• 1:12:47
  And yeah, and you know, they loved it.
• 1:12:50
  And that's, and the staff love having kids in camp.
• 1:12:54
  Some places work better than others.
• 1:12:55
  And again, that's where you speak to an expert to make sure the right places.
• 1:12:59
  Yeah, which is the right thing.
• 1:13:01
  Yeah, it's again, it's like I mentioned this before, my wife's philosophy, I think you'd probably be very similar in attitude that formal education for sure, want our kids to do
• 1:13:10
  that and they've done it.
• 1:13:12
  But I place as does my wife as much value in travel experiences and being exposed to other cultures and ways of life and that equally with formal education.
• 1:13:23
  we've been proactive in getting our kids out there.
• 1:13:25
  Obviously you have by your lifestyle.
• 1:13:28
  as well.
• 1:13:30
  I think you've heard, Botswana is like it's a, I often use it probably too much, a jewel in the crown, hidden gem, all that type of stuff within Southern Africa.
• 1:13:42
  I think you've heard through Peter's marketing side of it and also his professional guiding side of it that I Botswana is a little bit different.
• 1:13:51
  Well, it is different by the Delta in itself, but being completely different to anything around it, but its size, its space.
• 1:13:57
  ah
• 1:13:58
  I think it offers a lot.
• 1:14:00
  It's one of my favorite spots.
• 1:14:02
  I think it's a destination you should put forward to when a client comes to you about a trip to Africa, not knowing where they should go, east or southern.
• 1:14:10
  Robots one are up there.
• 1:14:11
  ah It's definitely worth the experience.
• 1:14:14
  ah Not only Peter is available as private guiding options, but his staff or extended staff, the international selections are on hand as well.
• 1:14:23
  Your go away destination specialist can help you guide your clients.
• 1:14:28
  on their choices, be it country or once they choose Botswana on all the different camp options, they're available, anything from three star all the way up to Jack's, which is
• 1:14:38
  the high end thing down on the salt pans where you can see a lesser known migration, 50,000, I think you mentioned was the number of zebra, sorry, and growing as things get
• 1:14:50
  better down there as well.
• 1:14:52
  So Botswana is a great option to consider.
• 1:14:55
  Please don't forget about it.
• 1:14:57
  Peter, anything else you'd like to leave our audience with before we say bye?
• 1:15:00
  uh No, I think that's it.
• 1:15:02
  We've covered a lot.
• 1:15:03
  Thank you very much for having me on.
• 1:15:06
  It was really interesting talking to you.
• 1:15:09
  Really interesting background life story.
• 1:15:11
  It's inspired me and I hope it inspires everyone out there.
• 1:15:16
  As always, thank you to our travel professionals for giving us their time today.
• 1:15:19
  know how busy you are.
• 1:15:20
  And until next time.