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Jon Ossoff and the Georgia Battleground w/ Joan Walsh / The Time of Monsters with Jeet Heer · The Nation Podcasts

• 0:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: The old world is dying, the new world struggles to reborn, now is the time of monsters.
• 0:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: With those words from Gramsci, I welcome you to the time of monsters podcast.
• 0:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Chief here of the nation magazine, which is a sponsor of the podcast.
• 0:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: This week I want to turn to the state of Georgia.
• 0:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: which is having both a Senate race and a Google editorial race and it is a very interesting and important battleground.
• 0:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we're lucky to have on as a guest, my colleague, Joan Wells, who's written along article about the Senate race there and it was like very steep in the history of that state and it's sort of politics.
• 0:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, Roosevelt, Joan, welcome to the podcast.
• 0:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much for having me.
• 0:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: So your focus of your piece is John Oshoff, who's like running for reelection, and I think like you know like it starts off with an idea that some people might find a little bit odd at this moment in history, which is that he faces an uphill climb, but I think we actually have to like, because he's actually
• 1:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: if polls are to be trusted doing quite well.
• 1:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I think the current strength in the polling is it's often a achievement and it really comes out of a history.
• 1:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so I wanted like maybe the best way to understand all this is to think about Georgia as a battleground state.
• 1:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, as a state that had been quite Republican,
• 1:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: for a while in which Democrats are making sort of inroads.
• 1:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: So what's the sort of like the larger changes that have been going on in the states that are making us off a very interesting sort of senatorial candidate?
• 1:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's funny because Stacey Abrams, who was a legislative leader, a black woman, you know, a very strong person from the black community, really put Georgia on the map back in 2013, 2014, in a certain way.
• 1:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: And she started, she was the one, you know, before us off because also he's 39 now.
• 1:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: So he was very young at that point.
• 1:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, she saw the demographic changes.
• 2:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: She saw that as bad as 2016 was,
• 2:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hillary Clinton did better even, I think, and, I mean, I'm pretty sure in Georgia than Obama did, and that is largely demographic changes, including a larger share of college-educated black people, and then also a larger share of people of other races.
• 2:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's really diversified as a state.
• 2:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: There are still places that are very white and, you know, very, very Trumpy, but
• 2:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: as early as 2013, 2014, minority leaders, Stacey Abram started organizing not just the black community, but heavily in the black community.
• 2:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, flip to the other story in 2017, after Trump, after they see, well, Hillary did better than expected.
• 2:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: John Ossov goes out and organizes this multiracial coalition
• 3:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Atlanta, which were always right the white flight counties that were heavily white and all also read.
• 3:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was that the C. He ran for was Newt D'Inquid to the seat.
• 3:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: And he didn't win in 2017, but he came close.
• 3:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: So then you have Stacey Abrams running coming very close.
• 3:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: in 2018, and Lucy McBath, another black woman, wins the seat that Osloff went for.
• 3:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so you see this, it's a combination of demographic change, but also, it organized it.
• 3:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think you can credit both Osloff and Abrams for doing that.
• 3:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so by 2020, when you have Joe Biden winning,
• 3:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: He, I mean, amazingly, right?
• 3:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's winning part the member he only won.
• 3:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: We only know the number, and I can't even totally remember it.
• 3:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it was like Donald Trump only needed 11,000, you know, whatever it was, 781 votes.
• 4:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: from their secretary of state in that perfect phone call they had.
• 4:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's right, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he had Trump famously asked her like the exact number of lists that he needed to win, which is, you know, the grand scheme of things a lot of votes.
• 4:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: No, we weren't really thinking about that about the number, but, you know, the big thing was he's trying to cheat.
• 4:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's trying to steal the election, but that's a small number when you get right down to it.
• 4:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but you also had, you know, Reverend Raphael Warnock running for Senate on, you know, one ticket and or
• 4:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Democrat, but, you know, for one seat, and John Ossoff running for the other seat, and they bring comparable, but slightly somewhat different constituencies together.
• 4:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's what we had in 2020.
• 4:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now, it's interesting, when you try to just look at it through the lens of race, it doesn't really
• 5:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: one, the black person one and say see Abrams who was running again in 22 lost the governor's race and she lost by much more than she'd lost in 2018.
• 5:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody can quite explain that.
• 5:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: It certainly wasn't about race and then you have John Ossoff who is, you know, for
• 5:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: incumbent senator, he's the only incumbent Democrat in a state that Trump actually won.
• 5:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: That all makes sense in the beginning, but as much as his campaign would kind of like us to believe he is still that, and I get the text and emails all day long, he's really not that.
• 5:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: He is built up, he keeps adding to his lead, and so that's an interesting thing to watch.
• 5:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, I mean, I think going back to that 20, 20 victory.
• 6:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, I mean, those were like kind of like special elections that took place after the main election had been decided.
• 6:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right, it took place on the faithful day of January 6th.
• 6:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, the election, the election took place on January 5th.
• 6:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 6:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: But we didn't get the results until the morning of January 6th.
• 6:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: I just remember it so well, because I was actually in California,
• 6:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: holiday and so it's three hours earlier there and somebody text me it was like 10 o'clock in the morning my, you know, California time text me that Ossoff there about to call it for Ossoff I'm so excited and then somebody else text me
• 6:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: turn on the TV magazine baiting the Capitol.
• 6:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, it was a very weird day on, but maybe connected in some way.
• 6:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think one thing that does maybe connect them is that I think that we're not going to also be able to win in that, you know, special January 2021 election.
• 7:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: partially on the argument that they were, you know, like Joe Biden is going to be the president, which like everyone outside the Trump cult kind of like accepted at that point and that, like, you know, they're going to be able to support his agenda.
• 7:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I think that's going to be, and then there actually going to be, and this is a period where Biden was, you know, still offering, like, you know, very much as a positive, like, let's move on from Trump, build back better,
• 7:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that like the early sort of political profile of we're not going to also have that time is sort of like the team players, the guys that are going to be able to work together, both with each other, but also with the enemy president.
• 7:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, so.
• 7:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think that all sort of contributed to their victory and I think like certainly might also explain why the sort of difficulties Democrats are still having on the sort of a gubernatorial level where I don't think that the governor has that same role where you're supposed to work with the president.
• 8:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's harder for, I mean, we'll get to this a bit later, but I think it still seems like much harder to climb for Democrats to win the governor's race as against the Senate races.
• 8:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think, I mean, that is obviously true, and I'm not entirely sure why, actually, whether the state parties have more, you know, carrying more, or the Republican party carries more weight.
• 8:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: in the gubernatorial elections, the legislature is still red and there are a lot of promising efforts to make it more blue, but it's not that now.
• 8:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: It really is a very interesting vibe differential, if you'll excuse my dumb.
• 8:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: nomenclature, you know, that that I really credit Abrams with a lot of the organizing that led to the elections of born, I can ask off Biden and then born again and we will see.
• 9:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: But you know, ask off his way ahead, but somehow they have been able to get it over the finish line in terms of the governor's race.
• 9:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: So.
• 9:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think like in terms of, well, thinking about like that, in those terms of like, you know, Oshoff's article profile in 2021 was, you know, like someone who could work with the president, I think what's interesting is how he's been able to adapt to like, you know, a very different environment to place after the 2024 election.
• 9:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: and his kind of like new identity where I think he's really made up name for himself as someone who's like very good at sort of needleing Trump and going after him.
• 9:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you want to do you want to say something a little bit about that?
• 9:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because I think that's sort of contributing to at least some of his popularity as sort of Trump sinks in the polls.
• 9:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, sure.
• 9:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I mean, I have covered him since he ran for Congress on successfully in 2017.
• 10:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: I covered him obviously in 2020 and 2021, but I didn't necessarily, I didn't at all foresee that he would have this standing as this person who can't, he's really adept at bringing together the corruption of the Trump administration, which is linked to his, you know, as he calls him.
• 10:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: openly, a racist bigot, his opponent, Mike Collins, who was endorsed by Trump, with, you know, the cost of living struggles of Georgians and the rest of the country, you know, he's able to link
• 10:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: the the grabbing for power and money on the right with the way they've emissorated even the middle class the way they took away you know expansions of the affordable caract subsidies even though it's not supposed to happen for real until twenty twenty seven the big ugly bill and it's cut back to Medicaid and food stamps it's happening already because states and
• 11:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: see it coming and they're they're cutting back so you have this i think this um emitteration that republicans didn't count on showing up until next year uh and he speaks to it you know and and you know he's interesting because
• 11:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: He of course insists that he's not going to run for president and I'm just going to take him at his word, but obviously if he wins overwhelmingly, there will be a strong movement, I don't movement is too strong a word, but they'll be more people calling for it, but he really put his head down in the beginning and
• 11:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: focused on constituent services, which is as Trump has come back and become more insane, radicals, the wrong word, cruel.
• 11:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's stepping in and saving people from deportation, saving them from saving people, or trying to save people's Medicaid.
• 12:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: That was his goal in the beginning.
• 12:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's put him uniquely in a situation to describe what's happening on the ground in Georgia and the pain as well as, you know, he's very articulate, you know, he's, he's, he's a filmmaker, he works well with images, you know, listening to, he's coined, you know,
• 12:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: Trump wants to travel with Natalie instead of doing his job.
• 12:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's just coined these things that, you know, you watched TV and you see people saying these same phrases, and so I think he has that.
• 12:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying either of us want to or will ever run for office, got for bid.
• 12:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, writers, it's a skill and watching him, you know, he does, he has a lot of talents,
• 13:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's got you know, he's got a talent for putting these horrible things we're seeing in ways that people remember sometimes they laugh about them sometimes they're funny, but often they're just outrageous and they get covered and people talk about it.
• 13:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, I mean, I think it's the communication stuff is like hugely important.
• 13:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that there's like two sides of it, like as you mentioned, one is highlighting this sort of corruption of Trump.
• 13:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: But then also connecting it, as you say, to the sort of kitchen table issues.
• 13:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because I mean, I think that's one thing that Democrats kind of struggle with and they're, you know, Vincent debating the party is to, you know, how much weight one should give to one of these people.
• 13:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
• 13:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you do it the way you also have to say, you know, like contrasting Trump's corruption and self enrichment with the suffering people have, then you can square that circle.
• 14:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we could maybe talk a little bit more later about, you know, him as a 20-28 candidate.
• 14:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I actually think the strength of your face was that you kind of basically avoided that because I think what's actually happening now in Georgia,
• 14:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: in 2026 is a much more interesting and in terms of like I mean you know this are kitchen table issues I mean like obviously you know inflation especially like well in gas prices but now like interest rates are going up like I think we're going to be going to a midterm where like everybody is going to have to pay more on their credit cards and you know having more difficult time getting a work is right
• 14:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: getting a car loan.
• 14:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I feel like all these things are like very visceral and real in a way that like anyone, you know, who's not like a multi-billionaire will feel.
• 14:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, definitely.
• 14:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's
• 14:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of unbelievable, it's bad already, but it's gonna get worse.
• 14:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, it's gonna get worse for most voters, you know, leaving aside the top one or even 10%.
• 15:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe even the 10% will feel something, but you know, for the top, or whatever.
• 15:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, the interest rate stuff, actually, you just need such as I was everybody, like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, yeah, I mean, like, yeah, I think what kind of overstated the importance of that, including like, yeah, even like, some of Trump's friends are, you know, going to find a little bit harder to do some of their business deals because money's going to be works for me.
• 15:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
• 15:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: And everything it is is leveraged
• 15:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and he got away with not paying back some of his money, but whatever.
• 15:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's another story.
• 15:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, and I also, you know, I don't think, and I know you know, it shouldn't be that hard to link these issues to the corruption and erosion of democracy.
• 15:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the fact that Osloff is very, is fairly unique.
• 15:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's not alone, but it's fairly unique in knowing how to do that is extremely frustrating because
• 16:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's pretty obvious to many of us on the left that these things are, these issues are related.
• 16:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so when, you know, the Democratic congressional campaign committee tells its candidates, we're not going to get, like literally, we're not going to give people money if they're not talking about kitchen table issues.
• 16:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: And if they're over-focused on democracy, it's like, what is wrong with you people?
• 16:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Are you, you know, you're not stupid people?
• 16:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: they're first of all so related, but also it's not just like they're related in the minds of a left wing elite or overeducated people.
• 16:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: They are related and you can make it clear and plain in the way that Ossov does.
• 16:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, I'm looking forward, I think he has to win for a lot of reasons.
• 16:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're starting to be really good, good looking polls about
• 17:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: the Democrats chances of taking the Senate, but it's still an uphill climb, you know, it's still, they have to flip three or four seats.
• 17:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's, it's not easy.
• 17:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so he has to win.
• 17:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, I'm very curious about assuming he wins what lessons can be taken from it.
• 17:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: As opposed to, he's very telegenic, he's very articulate, you know, whatever garbage we're going to hear if he wins about why he should run in 2028, that doesn't really look at the underlying reasons that he was able if he can to assemble this statewide coalition and state that's really fractured by race and class.
• 17:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, I mean, I think one thing, if we're looking at those specifics of Georgia, I think he has been helped by his opponent, and I think we should say a few words about him, because I do actually think both my colleges both are very bad kind of dead, but it also may be emblematic of many of the changes that are happening in the Republican Party.
• 18:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: and which are maybe worth highlighting in other areas as well like to see like you know my columns not as an outlier but as a more extreme version of something that's is very widespread.
• 18:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, well, sure.
• 18:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you know not just because they're both named Mike, but Mike Rodgers and Michigan, which is very different state, you know, very different racial demographic.
• 18:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously,
• 18:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: in a different way from Georgia, but they both, I mean, they both were endorsed by Trump over more possibly electable.
• 18:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: somewhat to the center, not much, Republicans.
• 18:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so there, you know, you've got this stamp of Trump on Collins.
• 18:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then Collins, you know, he's got so many stappers, and I think a son and a, you know, who are posting Nazi garbage, racist garbage, anti-Semitic garbage, he's under investigation.
• 19:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then Collins himself has posted some of that stuff.
• 19:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Collins, yes, you're right, not at, I mean, not well.
• 19:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, not quite Nazi, but certainly like very bigoted stuff.
• 19:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Very bigoted stuff.
• 19:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you know, applauding, yes, at white fret boys, harassing black women, at colleges and things like that.
• 19:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 19:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: No, he's clearly horrible, but he represents the Trump GOP, which I think is the GOP.
• 19:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not, I no longer pretend that there is, you know, there are a few different
• 19:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: parties and, you know, there's one decent party that's waiting to take over because that's just not true.
• 19:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: There are people who are somewhat better, but yeah, he really, he looked out and getting Collins as an opponent, but you can look all over the country and Democrats have looked out by the quality, the caliber of their horrible GOP opponents.
• 20:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think there's a emblematic aspect of Colin is staffers and I think that what when has to understand that this is really what sort of college Republicans have become.
• 20:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's not an accident, Colin's I think got the nomination, not just because he got
• 20:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: the supporter Trump, but because he had a sort of social media strategy, there's aimed at getting these kind of younger, more radicalized, more sort of in-celley, younger publicans, many of whom would listen to Nick Fuentes.
• 20:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that is actually, that is increasingly the sort of distinguishing feature.
• 20:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: of the sort of younger cohort of Republicans and which which I think makes you know candidates like Collins more and more likely.
• 20:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that that's kind of very significant.
• 20:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I mean but somewhere we're going to look at like two sides.
• 21:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: One of which is that like all stuff is a genuinely talented candidate who's been able to adapt and I think the crucial point that comes out of your
• 21:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: is the sort of changing demographics of Georgia, but not just as a simple fact that will inevitably lead to change, but the fact that you have a democratic party that is aware of this and is adapting to it and is able to build a coalition from that.
• 21:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: And on the flip side, a Republican party that is increasingly becoming maga in a way that I think alienates a lot of, even some of their former supporters.
• 21:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: Right, you know, you see the polls and he he and the Republican party Trump still have, you know, their their solid base.
• 21:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not that 25% I mean, I remember I don't have you remember this, but like.
• 21:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: at his very worst and, you know, it was while he was leaving the presidency, George W. Bush got down to something like 25% approval rating.
• 22:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, obviously he wasn't running, so it didn't matter that much, although it didn't help John McCain, obviously.
• 22:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: But ever since then, I've thought,
• 22:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: There is like 25% of the American electorate is that crap crazy or, you know, right wing.
• 22:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, that was actually Nick also, uh, Nixon's voice at the word right before he resigned at the worst days of Watergate.
• 22:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: He Nixon got down to 20, 20, 20, 20, 20.
• 22:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
• 22:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's, so that's easy, that's easy, like the buzz, the, the, the, the, the, the, right.
• 22:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: So maybe it's the.
• 22:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: Children of the Nixon voters and the children of the grandchildren of the whatever but you know we have to content with that however if we if we you know if if people on the left
• 22:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: whether writers or politicians do a good and up job, the majority of folks are not over there.
• 23:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's what Osloff has seen.
• 23:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's not as left-wing as we are, but we don't live in Georgia.
• 23:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: I call him a progressive.
• 23:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I truly believe that.
• 23:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: There are certain things that I wish he would do.
• 23:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe he will do.
• 23:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think that's assuming they, I don't assume that they're going to take the Senate.
• 23:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: things look good.
• 23:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: If they take the Senate, I think everything's on the table, including not right now, not until there's a Democratic president, but spanning the Supreme Court, which, you know, that was, I thought his most slippery answer, you know, he's very charming, but I was like, you know, with a lot of people feel like the Supreme Court reform has got to be top on our list,
• 23:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: the number of seats and maybe we need to impose, we can term limits or whatever, I term limit, whatever, and he's very calm and he just kind of looks at me like I'm anybody else, and he's like,
• 24:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I really believe in Supreme Court reform.
• 24:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's going to be high on our list of things to do.
• 24:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, you didn't really just agree about you know, expanding the courts.
• 24:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, I'm really in favor of court reform.
• 24:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, okay, I get it.
• 24:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: But you know, so he's good at that stuff.
• 24:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: And he's, I don't know if you would win in a bluer state, but,
• 24:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he probably could, and that's going to be an interesting thing about
• 24:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: what comes after this and what kinds depending on the margins in the house and Senate, what strength Democrats have, again, you know, they're not going to have veto-proof majorities.
• 24:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, pinch me.
• 24:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: If they do, I will, I'll send you, you know,
• 25:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't think that's going to happen and nobody thinks that's going to happen.
• 25:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: So Trump can veto anything.
• 25:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we're going to be waiting until 2029 to do anything significant.
• 25:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I think you're going to see a real reshuffling of people's priorities if the Democrats do a really amazing job.
• 25:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: because right now, there are people paid to act like, and I'm sorry, I'm going a field of Osof, because this is not him.
• 25:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: But people are getting big money to say that folks like Obdulets, Sayed, et cetera, are you know, they're gonna lose, they're really hurting our chances of taking the Senate.
• 25:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: And when people like him, I hope, when we're gonna have a whole different discussion.
• 26:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, I mean, I know that Democratic Party that's going to be coming, and I mean, if they do prevail in the house and possibly the Senate, I mean, it's going to be the party itself has been changing in its nature.
• 26:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: And even before there's a Democratic president, I actually think,
• 26:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: that if there is a democratic Senate and House, one thing is that the agenda of what they can put forward can very much change, who they can investigate can change.
• 26:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think that, you know, like, at this point, I think like, you know, impeaching Trump seems a bit moot, but I think what one is increasing the hearing is that, you know, the impeachment is something that we've done on, um,
• 26:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: many different officers in the car.
• 26:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I love, you know, I mean, they tried.
• 26:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: They, you know, there was a movement to impeach Pete Higgs app who certainly deserves it.
• 26:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it really, I haven't looked closely enough today, but it looks like Mike Johnson shut down the house to avoid taking that vote.
• 27:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know what, they're actually in the houses not going to be, until November, because I know.
• 27:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, we would like to know why Mike Johnson, I really think,
• 27:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we're talking about the Senate and John Awesome, but let's use our time wisely to say
• 27:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: goodbye Mike Johnson because I would bet my house that he will not be back as speaker.
• 27:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think he just served his day as speaker.
• 27:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to be overconfident.
• 27:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: I have been wrong about my predictions before, but I've never been wrong about like midterms.
• 27:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: I've been wrong about as wrong about Hillary and Kamala, not to use their first names, but I get to because I'm a woman
• 27:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: But you know, I really, I'm not going to bet on the Senate either, but the House Democrats have the House.
• 27:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's going to be a rough couple of years for Trump, but I also think it's like bye bye.
• 27:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
• 28:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, there's a lot of descent within the Pentagon and a lot of, you know, like if the Democrats have the house and possibly have the Senate as well, like there's just going to be all sorts of ways in which opposition to Trump's policies are.
• 28:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: are manifest.
• 28:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm going to become part of a visible part of politics.
• 28:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I actually think, yeah, because actually a Republican that brought forward the emotion to impeach.
• 28:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Hanks at the end of the policy.
• 28:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it was all nasty.
• 28:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, so I mean, I actually think that, I mean, and I think it's been very, very reported.
• 28:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of Republicans are very unhappy with headset.
• 28:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think another figure that could, you know, like really is currently being protected, but it could really come under a lot of scrutiny, is the FBI director, Casper, tell.
• 29:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I know you've written about him recently as well.
• 29:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I think these are, this actually like a wet tissue because I think that there are a lot of Republicans that are very happy with both those figures.
• 29:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's really, it's very interesting because, you know, obviously Joe Biden won in 2020, so the Democrats won against Trump's first administration.
• 29:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, looking back, I'm not going to valorize any of those people, any of his people.
• 29:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: All of his great cabinet members from John Kelly to God forbid John Bolton, all the people who were, you know, hailed as the grown-ups who stood up to him.
• 29:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: They took way too long to stand up to him.
• 29:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: They talked behind his back.
• 29:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: They talked to reporters who couldn't tell the story until after he was out of the White House.
• 29:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: We know all of that.
• 29:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: But they did still.
• 30:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: represent a little bit of common sense and ultimately probably kept his hand from, you know, he probably kept him from shooting protesters, you know, black lives matter, protesters around Lafayette Square in 2020.
• 30:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, but this time around, there are people that you can
• 30:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: The cash per tell is just a car wreck, you know, he's, we've heard these stories that he sadly probably has a drinking problem.
• 30:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's using FBI resources to send his girlfriend around and to travel around himself.
• 30:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: he is often missing an action.
• 30:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: His staff can't find him.
• 30:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: He was so incredibly contentious.
• 30:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: He was, you know, in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee on, I guess, it was Tuesday.
• 31:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: And,
• 31:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, told several senators, your time is up and poor sad old Republican Chuck Grassley was forced to say, Excuse me sir, but you know, their time is not up.
• 31:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the Democrats themselves were like, you, that's not your decision.
• 31:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, we lost sadly, we lost Christy Known, but she could have been headed for impeachment.
• 31:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Mark Wayne Miller.
• 31:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't you know, he's a little bit under the radar, but he's not doing anything right Who am I missing?
• 31:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: But Patel and the headset that really are asking for it.
• 31:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 31:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 31:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 31:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, I mean, I think certainly in terms of like
• 31:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: as a wedge issue for a bunch of Republicans, I actually think Scott Fesant is underrated because I think that the way he's written on with the tariffs, which is like something that Republicans particularly in states that do a lot of trade, like I think they're very unhappy with, and so I actually think that like even to get Republicans on the record, you know, like do support
• 32:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: like I actually think that that's a very powerful wedge issue, like it's actually something that would divide the Republic and party in a lot of very interesting ways.
• 32:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: I agree, but you know...
• 32:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sadly, although it's not sad for us because we would never want to do it, but, you know, the people, the people who have the big microphones and the big megaphones, et cetera, are people who want to ask about a son piker and divisive, you know, figures on the democratic left and not grill these people about, you know,
• 32:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: Elon Musk, mega racist, and as well as Hague Seth and Patel, but I didn't really radically change, like, you know, into Democrats when the house, and I
• 33:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: One of the powers that one has is a party if you're controlling an institution like that is you're having a gender setting power.
• 33:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can decide, you know, like what the hearing's are.
• 33:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now there might be enough Democrats who are like, you know, beholden to the donor class and want to continue to talk about a soundpiker.
• 33:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I'd be hard for us to think that that's going to continue much faster than the midterms.
• 33:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, especially for the party as well, like as you think that that's going to, is going to be a turning of the page.
• 33:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think you're a little, I think you're slightly optimistic and let's just say that I'm pessimistic, but having lived through some, you know, so many refreshing democratic victories.
• 33:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: From let's let's just say, I mean, I did vote for Jimmy Carter, but I was a child.
• 33:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: I voted illegally.
• 33:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: No, not really.
• 33:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't really remember that.
• 33:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: But like Clinton winning and Obama winning and Biden winning, it was like the page is turning, but
• 34:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: for the media, it never fricking turns.
• 34:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Democrats are always in the floodlights, Democrats are always in disarray.
• 34:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Democrats are always breaking the rules when you think about, I mean, remember how they looked into allegations or claims or whatever that Obama's RRS was looking
• 34:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: into right wing, you know, conservative non-profits and I was reporting on it and I was talking to my friends at liberal non-profits who were getting the same treatment, the same drag net, the same, you know, asking again for more documentation.
• 34:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was not true, but you know, you had major networks.
• 34:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: running stories about it.
• 34:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, we don't get to have elections for our media betters, but I wish we did because every time I've seen the page turn, as you said, I don't see that page turn.
• 35:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's still the same focus, the same spotlight on DSA.
• 35:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Are they divisive
• 35:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think I think you bring a very good point of view.
• 35:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's especially what it looks at like the sort of the ownership of the media class, and there's a lot of things.
• 35:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: We've just got to work.
• 35:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: We've just got to work.
• 35:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but on the other hand, I do actually, I know, I mean, maybe one of my graduates are out there with so far.
• 35:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think that there has been a concerted attempt to make this election about Hassan Piker and from everything I'm singing the polling, that's actually not working and I think
• 35:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
• 35:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
• 35:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 35:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think so.
• 35:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: So one of the things that maybe he's going to come out of the election is some consideration that like a lot of these tactics don't work.
• 35:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, this is the other way I continue to do that, but I mean like I think that's going to be a very solitary lesson.
• 36:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the other lesson that's great is going to be very interesting if the Democrats do as well.
• 36:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're kind of it.
• 36:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: hoping for right now it's going to be a review to money like as I I mean that's the sort of I this election much more than I think any sort of midterms before like there's a real oh my god yeah difference between the amount of money Republicans are getting and they're about the Democrats are
• 36:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: But you know and you know like that might I think that will definitely have an impact on some very close races But like if the Democrats can pull this off, I think that that will also be a very salutary thing like it'll be you know like a lesson on the limits of what money can do
• 36:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 36:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: I agree with you.
• 36:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: I just think, I mean, it's scary because they've got the guns on their side.
• 36:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: If there were ever civil war and they've got the money.
• 36:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think there's going to be civil war, but at some point you just kind of shiver and you, you know, you see all this money that's coming down against
• 37:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: James Talloreco in Texas and lots of other places where they've started to open their pockets and spend.
• 37:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so it hasn't really made the difference.
• 37:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean we've seen Democratic primaries where the moderate or business-oriented person
• 37:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: has just had a ton of money against the progressive, and that was true in Minnesota, when progressive Peggy Flanagan beat very centrist and J. Craig, Democrat, you know,
• 37:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then opening in those races, I mean, like, not even like a very, like, two-to-one advantage.
• 37:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes like, yeah, like a five-to-one, six-to-one, you know, and then money not winning.
• 37:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I mean, I think that this is like, I mean, something to watch for.
• 37:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I think, you know, there's a real danger that in some of these close races, the buddy could win.
• 38:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I think the other way...
• 38:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: To sell it, I think maybe if the Democrats might want to push this message, it's like, you know, like if we can defy the money, that's a huge victory for democracy, and right.
• 38:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
• 38:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, the people who are winning with small dollar donors, et cetera.
• 38:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you're right, that that is a message that has to get out.
• 38:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm still a little bit, even having watched Peggy Flanagan win.
• 38:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm still, you know, a little bit.
• 38:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no, no, these things are all, it's just their bracket, it's, you know, it's, that's he's genuinely frightening, like for each of our American democracy, like, like, like, what the sort of, you know, what is seeing in a way that far more than ever before, what the sort of plutocratic class is willing to do, and their resources are because it's such an unequal society, their resources are, like, almost unlimited.
• 38:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, it's a real, it's an important test case.
• 39:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, we're approaching the return, so we'll continue to watch it.
• 39:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: I would encourage listeners to read Jones article, which I'm going to be looking to you in the show notes.
• 39:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Both on this race and she's also been ready, ready to get the storm, but the elected, which we will continue to watch.
• 39:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much.